Israel or Palestine?

[sterile crag]

Was that as systemic as what Hamas did? Yes, it's obvious that the Israeli military is guilty of crimes against humanity, but is it publicly celebrated, as the scenes that we saw on october 7th? I highly doubt it's of the same magnitude, with the same support in Israel's population.

there are videos of a girl that got raped to death, which got paraded through the streets of Gaza like a trophy, with tens of thousands celebrating it and spitting on the mangled body.

[thorny stone]

If you back people into a corner they tend to get desperate, and desperate people end up doing worse stuff. Nobody is saying Hamas' actions are acceptable, we're just looking for the causes of it, and the cause is Israel's actions.

[summer saffron]

Whataboutism isn't going to get us anywhere

[thorny stone]

(Sorry, mistook the author there.)

[summer saffron]

There is cheering from both sides for the atrocities

There is also condemnation

[civic karma]

Well thats the thing, it kinda is

Maybe you differ on opinion on that

But within the circles of israeli military personell

they treat palestinians as below humans

And dance to it, sing to it, make videos about them etc etc

include captions like ''another pig down'' or whatever

[sterile crag]

I beg to differ. The cause is that both sides aren't interested in peace. Hamas only exists because of the suffering of Palestinians, so Hamas is basing its power on that, which is absolutely unsupportable in my opinion. Israel needs a common enemy so that radicals and moderates within the country don't start fighting amongst each other.

[thorny stone]

The violence and torture by Israel is a lot more systemic than what Hamas does. It's more organised, it's more deliberate, it's more planned, and it's done on a larger scale.

[civic karma]

Its not like ''oh there's a few bad apples''

No this behaviour is internally encouraged within the IDF

And i know how this is gonna sound, but to me that gives flashbacks to the 1940's

And if israel was given to the jews in order to prevent anything like that from happening again

then they should not do it themselves

thats all im saying

[thorny stone]

Hamas is in power because it's the only way for Palestinians in Gaza to resist Israel. If Israel stops it's aggression then Hamas would lose support because then Palestinians would have options, it's as simple as that. Israel is keeping Hamas in power by continuing their ongoing attacks against Palestinians.

and more specifically, Netanyahu is only in power because he uses the Palestinians as a universal bogeyman to keep Israelis so afraid that they will vote for the person who is hardest against the Palestinians.

It's in Netanyahu's interest for Hamas to keep attacking Israel, because it keeps Netanyahu in power, and because it gives Likud and similar groups justification to continue their war of conquest to gradually take control over the whole region.

[sterile crag]

Exactly the same as indoctrinating children of Hamas ideals. So in the end, it's the same. But my point still stands. Israel hasn't tried to hurt me (yet), but Iranian-backed terrorists have committed terrorist attacks in my country. That is why I slightly favor Israel, but I support the issuing of arrest warrants towards both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders.

[thorny stone]

Israel has specifically engineered the situation that keeps Hamas in power in Gaza. It's not like Israel doesn't know that the Palestinians turn to Hamas to defend them against Israel. The Israeli intelligence services are among the most highly funded intelligence services in the world.

Anyone can see why Hamas is there.

Everyone knows that violence doesn't solve violence. It never has, never will. Everyone knows that the only way to stop Hamas, or other attacks on Israel, is to find a peaceful solution. That's what most Palestinians want, that's what most Israelis want.

[sterile crag]

My point is that anyone who commits acts of terror can't claim to be the victim. Israel's government and in consequence the IDF as well as Hamas are both perpetrators. If sympathy is sought from a third party, it's counterproductive to have the parent organization (Iran's dictators) organize and/or support terrorism against said third party.

[thorny stone]

But it's not what Netanyahu or Likud want. They have the power to stop it, but choose not to. Hamas doesn't have the power to stop it, so they're never given a choice in the matter.

[thorny stone]

Acts of terror = acts of war. There's no real difference. And yes, it's perfectly possible for one side to be a victim in a war.

[sterile crag]

Your narrative portrays a terrorist organization as the victims.

[thorny stone]

Hamas and the IDF are both terrorist organisations.

but terrorism is just a new name for warfare.

[sterile crag]

correct. Both are instruments to terrorize the population. Thus you cannot portray Hamas as the victim, as you did.

[thorny stone]

it's just warfare carried out in a situation with incredibly unequal resources

[thorny stone]

I'm sorry, but I didn't portray Hamas as 'the victims'.

Everyone except the Zionists are the victims.

Everyone except the people causing the problem.

Palestinians, Israelis, people around the world who are persecuted for expressing an opinion on the issue. There are tons of victims of the Zionist desire for conquest.

Of course, even some of the Zionists are themselves victims.

But the most important thing here is how to solve the problem and stop the atrocities. And that is on Israel. Hamas and the Palestinians can't stop resisting until Israel stops attacking them, and stealing their homes and lands.

The US could also make Israel stop. So the responsibility for the violence and atrocities is also partly on them.

[civic karma]

Not just the US

there are plenty of countries that support Israel, either financially or through military equipment

including the country i live in

We actually had a judge rule in court that it was unlawful according to international conventions to keep supporting the Israeli government with military equipment

Government just put up a middle finger and continued

[thorny stone]

Yeah, I mean that's true, but I don't get the impression that any of the others carries enough weight with Israel's leaders. The US is the main one that blocks criticism of Israel at the UN, and without their support Israel would very quickly find itself with serious problems regardless of what other countries did, in my opinion.

[civic karma]

So yeah, even my hard earned tax money goes into funding Netanyahu

[civic karma]

Well, if other allies of the US would stand up against Israel and the US then that would probably change

but they keep their mouths shut

Imagine all of EU would say: US if you don't stop with funding then we won't trade with you anymore

and then look how fast the US and Netanyahu can come to an agreement

[sterile crag]

There it is. Portraying Hamas as the victim and Israel as the perpetrator, whilst both are perpetrators instead of victims. Given the fact that you choose to support the terrorist organization that has direct impact on my people, your arguments are achieving the opposite of what you intend them to achieve. The zionists are just as bad as the radical islamists in Hamas objectively speaking, and subjectively speaking for me, radical islamists are the bigger problem for my safety and health. You don't help the palestinian cause by trying to convince me that Hamas isn't exactly half of the problem, but some poor misunderstood organization that has its hand forced by the other side, which isn't actively interested in blowing me up or attacking me with knives. Hamas didn't just attack Israel, they murdered and took as hostages civilians of many countries. That is no moral high ground. That is terrorism. Just like bombing international aid (which Israel did). The difference is that Israel called it a mistake, and Hamas kept the hostages, knowing well that they aren't Israelis. I judge people's actions based on the categorical imperative. And neither Israel nor Hamas act accordingly, with Hamas and its supporters acting especially vile towards my country/culture/people. You do not judge everyone by the same standards, thus further discussion is futile, as by trying to sway me towards the side of Hamas, by relativizing their brutality as a necessity, you achieve the opposite. You either have to condemn both sides of this conflict the same, or you have to call the violence of both sides a necessary reaction in the given situation, thus claiming that it'd be a tragedy that's beyond solution. All that now remains to be said from my side is fuck Hamas and their overlords in Iran and fuck Netanyahu and his warmongers.

[thorny stone]

Yeah.

I can't speak about the other countries, but I know in the UK the Israeli intelligence services have been working very hard to stifle criticism of Israel. So that's why the UK isn't standing up on the issue, because our efforts within the UK are being countered by Israeli propaganda.

[sterile crag]

concerning Germany:

https://www.jns.org/germany-we-will-execute-icc-warrant-against-netanyahu/

[civic karma]

Rare German W

[sterile crag]

nobody is above the law. Nobody can get away with crimes. That is what justice is all about. I fully support arresting Netanyahu if the ICC finds him guilty (which I very much think it will)

[civic karma]

As your neighbor that has housed the ICC, I thank you for your support

its actually like 5 min cycle from my work

[sterile crag]

And I may add that I find Netanyahu's reply absolutely despicable. Upholding international law isn't an antisemitic hate crime, it's upholding international law, so if he wants to be seen as a criminal, that's exactly what he needs to say. As I said, people are to be judged by their actions. If said actions are in breach of international law, and/or if such actions are crimes against humanity, that makes the perpetrator a criminal, regardless of their religion, color of skin, place of birth or taste in icecream. Actio = Reactio.

[civic karma]

I mean, this has been the whole israeli defence for years now, if people don't agree with you, just pull the ''antisemite'' card

[sterile crag]

I find it strange that you thank me for supporting the ICC and international law. It's not up to discussion, that's why it's the law, it should be absolutely natural to abide by it.

[civic karma]

The problem is, it is actually up to discussion nowadays

This is the US response: On Tuesday, the White House came out against legislation being pushed by House Republicans to sanction senior members of the ICC. “We don't believe the ICC has jurisdiction [in this case], so we don't support these arrest warrants.

[sterile crag]

It's one of the greatest achievements of modern times, paid in blood by millions in WW1 and WW2. To debate it is to spit on every single one of those graves.

[civic karma]

Tell that to the white house please

[sterile crag]

well, that the inner workings of the US is nothing but an oil mafia is pretty much common knowledge at this point, I'd assume xD

[civic karma]

Sure, but as long as no other country n the west is willing to stand up against the US, their opinion on the power of the ICC matters quite a lot

If the US does not take it seriously, then we have a problem

[sterile crag]

that is why I think we need Europe (or at least central Europe) to unite as United States of Europe. The US democracy is degrading (as we've seen pretty impressively within the last couple of years) and we need a strong counterweight to stand up to what may come out of its transformation. Religious fundamentalism seems to take hold in the US again and people turn their backs on science, justice and logic in favor of superstition and religion, which is always a bad thing, whatever religion that may be.

[civic karma]

Yeah i fully agree

If I may ask, what are you gonna vote this weekend?

[sterile crag]

Volt.

[civic karma]

CRAZY

me too

[sterile crag]

well, it's the closest thing we have to United States of Europe parties, so it's my choice. I like their social ideas as well as their ecological awareness as well, so they seem pretty decent to me^^

[civic karma]

Yeah i am mostly in it because i think the only way to properly solve many societal issues if it happens continental and not on national level

I present to you exhibit A: Hungary

[sterile crag]

Viktor Orban is truly a troglodyte.

And I fully agree. Unite instead of divide. Our common enemy is the unknown. We are a pathetic species, if we think about it. We can create mini-suns in order to kill each other (the only more energy/mass efficient way would be antimatter bombs), but we haven't even managed to settle on the next rock, right next door, because we're so intent on killing each other.

[thorny stone]

I'm not trying to convince you, if that's what you think. That's not what the purpose of these conversation is for me, because almost nobody ever changes their mind about anything in these discussions. Besides, you've told me quite clearly that you're not prepared to consider changing your mind. I'm just correcting the errors in the arguments as I see them, for the benefit of others reading this conversation.

I've also never said that Hamas is "some poor misunderstood organization", so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of that. Hamas do bad things, and nobody is arguing against that. I'm just talking about responsibility for ending this war. I'm just looking at the causes of actions, and pointing out that Hamas don't have the ability to stop the war, but Israel does. Therefore, although Hamas is to blame for its actions, it currently has no responsibility for the war as a whole because it is powerless to stop it.
Responsibility is not the same thing as innocence/guilt. Neither Hamas nor Israel are innocent, but the responsibility rests with Israel.

[thorny stone]

I do want to repeat what I've said about terrorism though. Terrorism is what happens when you give people no other options.

Wars happen because people are desperate, because they have no other options. Nobody wants to harm others naturally, nobody wants to risk their life for anything if they don't have to, but some people feel forced to do so because their basic needs aren't being met. If your needs aren't being met then you need to do something about it. If the people you feel are preventing your needs from being met won't listen to reason then you don't have an option but to try other things. Remaining in a situation where your basic needs aren't being met is never an option. So war is what you try when the other people won't change voluntarily.

If your enemy is overwhelmingly more powerful than you, then sticking to the "accepted" rules of war won't work. There's no point a Palestinian trying to attack an Israeli military base, because it won't do anything. The same way there's no point in any small group anywhere in the world attacking most national militaries directly. The modern militaries won't feel any effect, and so your needs will continue to not be met.
But since you need your basic needs to be met, doing nothing is not an option. So you start looking for other options. If you have already exhausted diplomatic means, and can't attack military targets, then attacking civilian targets is one of the very few options remaining.

"Terrorism" is therefore just another form of war. It's caused by the same problems but you give people even fewer options for resolving them. There's no point considering it separately from conventional war when the only difference is that you're prevented the people doing it from trying conventional war, forcing them to turn to the next best option. So no, I don't consider terrorism a worse act than war. They are both an inevitable and unavoidable expression of the same thing just in different situations. Both are equally wrong.

[sterile crag]

Stopping this war would be quite easy, if both Hamas and Zionists would accept. In my opinion the best way to stop this war would be to have a government that consists of both Israelis and Palestinians, if a one state solution is sought, or, if that isn't feasible, there needs to be a two state solution with Gaza and the west bank being fully independent from Israel. I don't think that'd work though, because one side would always envy the other side. If people could let go of their hatred for each other and realize that all everyone wants is to live in peace and prosperity, there could be a government formed of both Palestinians and Israelis, Jews and Muslims, and if they somehow managed to draw a line and say "no more violence, from now on we talk things over, as too many have died already" that'd be a very, very good thing. But unless both sides let go of their hatred, their thirst for revenge and their anger, that is nothing but a utopia. And for that to happen, Palestinians need to forgive Israelis and Israelis need to forgive Palestinians.

needless to say, this won't happen with current Hamas leadership and Netanyahu, so change must come from both Palestinians and Israelis, so the hardliners on both sides get dethroned.

[thorny stone]

There's no way a one-state solution works when you have two groups who hate each other as much as the Israelis and Palestinians do now. So I think that's immediately off the table. They simply wouldn't work with each other in the near future.

So, what we need is a two-state solution, where both groups of people are allowed to get on with life without needing to interact with each other. They both need to have their needs met without needing to hurt the other to do so. Then over time, the levels of immediate hurt decrease and relations can improve.

To achieve this, the two sides need to by physically separated, because neither will stop wanting revenge while they still feel the hurt. It does no good to wit for a change in leadership, if the new leadership has been just as hurt by the conflict and feels the same way. So we need somebody to step in and stop both sides from harming the other. We will need an UN army in place for probably at least 50 years, maybe a lot longer, preventing both sides attacking the other, to let the region calm down, because it will take that long for the people who have been hurt too much to let it go to die out and be replaced by those who haven't been hurt so deeply.

The two sides won't just magically forgive each other. We need steps like these to allow it to happen eventually.

[thorny stone]

The two states both need to be viable, so they both need sufficient land and resources, and they need to not reward violence. So it's out of the question for Israel to keep all the lands they currently occupy with their troops. Israel needs to be reduced in size to more or less the 1947 UN partition, to allow space for the Palestinians to return. But I would change the borders to reflect the fact that we need to physically separate the two groups more. So rather than having separate Palestinian enclaves, I would make their area all one continuous country. So modifying the 1947 plan, I would allow Israel to keep the area around Acre in the north, but give up the Golan Heights and give up everything south of the line between Jerusalem and Ashdod. Jerusalem itself should be an international city, with neither side owning it. The Palestinians keep the West Bank and everything south of Jerusalem including the coastline from Ashdod south. Nobody's going to get exactly what they want, and a bunch of people are going to have to move house, but everyone needs a safe place to live and that takes priority.

[feral skiff]

i honestly dislike both sides, equally, however i feel at this moment in time israel is the clear bad side to this one, the default is both bad, right now its both bad, israel worse

october 7th was both bad palestine worse

[junior delta]

So do you put Israel at worse because their response to October 7th, events before that, or both?

[feral skiff]

october 7th - palestine worse
what israel did after that - israel worse

[forest vale]

Crazy how much quieter things have been since then. Many countries don't even know what war is. Are you suggesting that fixing borders was a bad move?

What reference point would you select? The popular one seems to be 4 generations ago, when everyone alive had nothing to do with anything that happened. Pretty easy to argue that that point doesn't make sense if you're not trying to punish people for what their great great grandparents might have done.

When Israel was founded, Jews were attacked and slaughtered in many countries, even if they had absolutely nothing to do with Zionism. Jews in the US are harassed and blocked from entering buildings in universities, which has absolutely nothing to do with Israel. It's not that the defenders of Israel equate the Jews and Israel, it's that those attacking Israel don't seem to separate them at all, treating them as if they were the same. Why should someone be attacked in America for wearing traditional Jewish garb unless someone is antisemitic?

If we're talking about October 7, then saying Hamas isn't really accurate, since they were simply the most prominent group. Many terrorist groups participated, some of whom are quite active elsewhere in the world.

[feral skiff]

there were jews participating in the anti israel protest . . .

[forest vale]

the anti Israel protest? There were many protests. For many of them, if a Jew attempted to enter the area of the protest or even enter many of the normal university buildings, they were blocked from doing so. How does it make sense to claim that a protest is anti-Israel and not antisemitic if they are targeting Jews with their harassment and ire? Does it really make it not antisemitic if a Jew participates in a protest that harasses Jews who aren't connected to Israel?

Criticizing Israel has little to do with antisemitism. But these protests have been doing a horrible job of making the distinction between Jews and Israel.

[feral skiff]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-campus-protest-jewish-student-2e904dac59c6fda38b0c13831ba89ead

"Inside the Northwestern encampment was another Jewish student, junior Paz Baum.

Baum, who held a Passover seder among the tents with the other pro-Palestinian protesters, said her religious values compelled her to protest over the war in Gaza.

“I see a direct parallel between the experiences of my Jewish ancestors and the experience of the tens of thousands of Palestinians being slaughtered,” said Baum, whose great-grandparents fled pogroms in eastern Europe.

Baum insisted that hateful posters were taken down as they were spotted, and said the only antisemitism she had witnessed was from several Jewish protesters, mostly older adults, who confronted the encampment on Sunday.

As Baum held a sign reading “Jews for a cease-fire,” she said they lobbed antisemitic slurs at her. Other pro-Palestinian protesters have said accusations of antisemitism are bandied about merely to discredit their movement."

@forest vale

https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/31/university-texas-jewish-students-protests/

and this is with like 3 minutes of digging

probably less

found 2 articles with 1 search and briefly read over them

im not saying that people in the pro palestinian camp behaved perfectly

but you cannot put all those protests under the same antisemitic umbrella

antizionism =/= antisemitism

[forest vale]

Hang on, you're telling me that with a couple minutes of digging, you found a couple protests that weren't antisemitic?

[feral skiff]

i found and READ

[forest vale]

Are you trying to say that all protests have been perfectly great with none being antisemitic at all?

[feral skiff]

they were antizionist as hell

yeah that makes sense

[forest vale]

Like, what exactly is the point you're trying to make? With 2.5 minutes of searching, I could find numerous incidents of antisemitism, not anti-Israel, anti-Jews.

[feral skiff]

but definitely not antisemitic

and with half an hour of research i can find a plethora of information to back me

your point?

i have exams to prepare for

[forest vale]

There have been tons of protests across the country. Of course many of them are fine.

[feral skiff]

im not gonna throw hours to prove someone on discord wrong

[feral skiff]

so for the actions of a few youre putting it on the rest

[forest vale]

The point is that a lot of the time, the protests actually are antisemitic, specifically against Jews and not just against Israel.

[feral skiff]

a lot of the time there are jews in the pro palestinian camp

[forest vale]

People are arguing that protesting Israel isn't antisemitic, and I agree. The issue is that often, it's very much explicitly antisemitic.

[feral skiff]

antizionism =/= antisemitism

[forest vale]

Anti-Jew = antisemitic

anti-Israel =/= antisemitic
Israel =/= zionism

If you're going to ignore the many examples where things have been horrible specifically towards Jewish students, then why would it matter if some of the protests were fine?

You're not actually interested in properly analyzing the situation, you're just interested in proving someone else wrong.

[feral skiff]

anti israel =/= antisemitic

[forest vale]

That's what I said.

[feral skiff]

oh yeah mb

anti jew = antisemtic
anti israel =/= anti semitic
supporting an israeli state = zionism

how is israel not linked to zionism

the definition of zionism is

[forest vale]

Zionism is about the creation of a Jewish state.

[feral skiff]

"stablishment of a homeland for the Jewish people, particularly in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition.
Following the establishment of the State of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state.
It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology."

*Establishment

look id love to discuss this further

but i really need to go i have an exam tomorrow

[forest vale]

It's already existed for 75 years at this point. Israel continuing to exist has nothing to do with zionism.

[feral skiff]

we can pick this up later

ping me in this chat so ill have a notification to remember

[forest vale]

Go study man. I hope you do well.

[feral skiff]

ty

[hollow token]

@forest vale ^

[zenith coyote]

the webster dictionary definition is not the true definition in this case. Zionism is simply about the jews having their own state. You can be against israel while not being anti-semetic, but most if not all of these protests are anti-semetic. Protesting the government isn't AS but blatantly ignoring the complex history and simply saying that israel is the agressor is a little bit on the line. I can go on and say that israel offered a two state solution 5+ times and Palestine declined. Or i can talk about the 1948 war how palestine backed by the arabs thought they could kick the jews out and got absolutely fucking bodied, same with the two other wars they lost

why does noone question how that whole area turned muslim? Because of the muslim colonization conquest, calling israel a colonizer is just ironic seeing a map of the world

israel has taken some extreme measures but Hamas doesnt give a shit about palestinian lives and sees this as a politcal war rather than a war of military weapons, which israel would win with their advanced weapons. If they can get the world against israel then they have succeded in their mission.

also hamas has been in power for almost 20 years and has made no advancements to help the life of the palestinians even with getting billions in aid, but somehow have enough money to make rockets and terror tunnels. Ive heard that bibi helps put them in power but hamas has done nothing for their people

[civic karma]

You can be against israel while not being anti-semetic, but most if not all of these protests are anti-semetic.
Why do you believe this to be the case? This is a topic that was discussed earlier in this thread already, but I won't expect you to go back, find it and read it all. But one of the conclusions that at least I made, is that there is big difference between what various people on the spectrum of the israel-palestine conflict regard as anti-semitism.

For me, anti-semitism is the discrimination against jewish people for the mere fact that they are jewish. Now in most protests that I have personally observed, the demonstrations were mainly against Netanyahu, his government and the military policies, which has nothing to do with antisemitism the way I view it.

I'm not sure whether you have attended a protest, or have seen some protests first hand up close, but I feel like quite some misinformation is spread about the protests and/or protestors

But that could also just be a regional / cultural difference

[zenith coyote]

i have not seen a single in person protest in america call against netanyahu. There are calls for intifada which is a call for non peacefull uprisiings, many times resulting in killings of jewish people. Calling for the abolition of a jewish state, the only place in the middle east, and the world where jews can live freely and not be prosecuted is anti semetic. Calling for reforms in their politics and how they act in war is fine. Calling for cease fires is fine, but i dont understand why there are no calls for the hamas side, when there was already a ceasefire in place before oct 7.

75% of the people at these protest if not more dont even understand or know what they are protesting

if youve seen protest in israel against netanyahu those are actually peaceful, unlike the pro palestine ones in america, where everyone wants to wear a mask to protect their identity

i have seen protest in person and i see how they treat a jewish person just walking by

ive seen the college encampments, namely UCLA who think its ok for them to stop jewish students from getting to classes. that is not anti israel that is blatant anti semitism

as ive said before there is nothing wrong with protesting israel, but there is something wrong with protesting jews

[forest vale]

There's video footage of people targeting Jews for being Jewish or wearing traditional garb. That's not disinformation. I'm glad you've got examples of people being more civil and targeting Israel instead of Jews, but there's a reason multiple university presidents lost their jobs over here, and it's not because of disinformation.

We also had people specifically calling for "Death to America" during these protests, so that's the type of people we're talking about. It's actual antisemitism, not just a call for Israel to be more wholesome in their operations.

[zenith coyote]

as well as the recent evidence from the administration of columbia not taking the threat to its jewish students seriously and mocking it in their texts. Calling it all a stunt for fundraising

[forest vale]

Don't forget the part where they went in front of congress and said calling for genocide of Jews, literal genocide, wouldn't violate University policy, that it depended on the context.

[zenith coyote]

nope because its jewish people

there are calls to remove the definition of anti semtism from some schools dei definition so there "aren't falsley acused people

aka just wanting to be more blatantly anti semetic

[forest vale]

I don't know how people can pretend that calling for a genocide is somehow anti-Israel instead of antisemitic, but people have weird logic sometimes.

[zenith coyote]

what is a genocide is jewish population in every other nation

[forest vale]

That's the new culture war. Change the definition of any word you don't like that accurately describes you.

[zenith coyote]

i wont deny that israel may not treat all its citizens equally, nameley all the humanitarian issues with palestinians before oct 7, but it is a thousand time better than any other country around there treats people

i think the problem with the younger generations hatred of israel is that theyve never seen israel as the underdog like in the 1948 war were arab nations maybe palestine deny the two state solution because they thought they could win, happening again in 1967 6 day war, 1973 yom kippur war. and they just see them as a powerhouse as they are today and think its all from foreign funding, which dont get me wrong has helped. But they haven invested in the right things like technology and their people. like japan has done after the devostating atomic bomb drops. they are also leading in the technological field

[civic karma]

Nah I didn't know. Thats despicable behaviour, glad you brought it up

[zenith coyote]

hamas had almost 20 years and did not invest in their people at all

[forest vale]

Hamas are thieves and murderers. It is really baffling how much support they're getting around the world right now. Less surprising in the US, since we have a lot of misseducated college students that have had hatred preached to them against America and any allies we have, especially Israel.

[forest vale]

Yeah, it's pretty bad. How do you go in front of congress and say it doesn't violate your code of conduct to call for a genocide against Jews? The university presidents didn't even have to say it was happening. It was just a hypothetical, "If people called for this, would it violate your policies?" And they wouldn't say that it would. It was wild, bad enough to get funding removed from universities until the presidents were fired. In the climate where something like that is accepted, it's not surprising to see a lot of radicalized protestors chanting for death to various groups of people.

[forest vale]

On October 10, SJP was calling the attacks on October 7 "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance." So this is the context we've had for 8 months, and the context we started with. But people continue to claim that no one is defending Hamas or celebrating the terrorism of October 7. The reality is that it started off with the celebrations and with defending and celebrating Hamas, and it was only later that people started reframing these celebrations as really just peaceful "anti-Israel" protests that had nothing to do with antisemitism. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[thorny stone]

How can saying that "Israel is the aggressor" in this situation be in any way racist? It's not making any comment whatsoever about any race, and no part of the reasoning why people are saying that comes from any argument connected to race. People are saying that Israel is the aggressor here because they are invading the lands of someone else, it's that simple. Not just now, but also for the last 140 years. The Palestinians don't have the power to stop the war, Israel does. That makes Israel the aggressor. There's no 'race' argument in any of that.

I went through the history of the region in more detail in a previous message. #1238854947756310620 message
I think it's very clear that the Zionists have been the aggressors all along. Including in 1948, where they were systematically ethnically cleansing Arab areas long before the Arab army moved in to try to get them to stop.
Every two-state proposal Israel has made has attempted to legitimise the massacres they have carried out and their theft of Arab land and property. Israel has never made a proposal that didn't massively benefit them by absolving them of responsibility for their actions. There is no way that you can steal someone's home, murder the rest of their family, and then expect them to be fine with the status quo. The Israeli two-state proposals were only ever a propaganda mission to try and make it seem like Israel was being reasonable to anyone who didn't look closely at the situation.

It's really important to remember that throughout all of this, Israel has been operating one of the most highly funded and effective propaganda campaigns in history, to prevent opposition to their actions, and this extends into interfering in the electoral processes of other countries. All of this is fundamentally driven by a group of Zionists who believe that they are entitled to do anything they want regardless of the effect on others.

[thorny stone]

Nobody talks about it because it happened more than a thousand years ago. Nobody alive is significantly affected by it.

If you want to find examples in history of governments and armies that did worse things that Israel then that's easy to do. But we didn't ignore any of those in the past, and we shouldn't ignore what Israel is doing now. Not being the absolute worst in history is not a reason to not criticise Israel.

Hamas is in place as the de facto organisation in charge of Gaza because the people there have been living in a constant state of terror for many decades. Any time any kind of peaceful organisation tries to establish itself there, Israel walks in and dismantles it. The only possible response to being forced to live in a constant state of war is to learn how to fight back, and Hamas is the product of that. It's the only type of organisation that can resist Israel attacks, and therefore it's the only type of organisation that can exist, and therefore it's the only organisation doing anything in that area.

It's not at all true to say that it doesn't do anything for the Palestinians in that region. Speak to any of them, and they'll all say that Hamas is trying to help them. But if you're fighting a war for 100 years, against a significantly better funded and more numerous army that destroys anything you build almost instantly, there's not much you can actually accomplish. There is no organisation, of any kind, that could have done more for the Palestinians in Gaza than Hamas has done. Palestinians have tried everything. Hamas is the only thing that has endured, because of the actions of Israel. Hamas is obviously not great, but the actions of Israel make it the best option for Palestinians in that area.

[thorny stone]

Well, allow me to show you some examples of US protests against Netanyahu:
https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/137729
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2023-01-02/ty-article-magazine/.premium/in-photos-u-s-jews-protest-netanyahu-govt-outside-israeli-embassy-in-washington-dc/00000185-7405-de47-afdf-f6b5701e0000
https://www.commondreams.org/news/jews-against-israeli-apartheid
https://georgetownvoice.com/2016/09/11/netanyahu-panel-interrupted-by-protest/
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-760098

[thorny stone]

But it's really important to understand that there has never been a cessation of hostilities by Israel against Palestinians. Israel has been constantly killing Palestinians. Innocent Palestinians were being killed in the name of Israel even before Israel existed, and that has never stopped. Hamas's attack on the 7th October wasn't a beginning of anything or a breach of any cease fire. It was just another attack in the ongoing war between Israel and the Palestinians.

It's also important to note that Israel rejects two-state solutions all the time as well, as well as UN resolutions. Israel ignored even the UN resolution that recommended the creation of Israel, instead choosing to try and conquer the whole region militarily.

There is no moral high ground for Israel in any of this.

[thorny stone]

Israel weren't the underdog in 1948, nor in 1967. They already had a larger, better funded, and better trained army than the Palestinians or the Arab countries, even in 1948. Military conquest has been a fundamental part of Israel since before it's creation, and they have an army designed for specifically that purpose.

[thorny stone]

That is obviously a bad thing for them to do. But I think it's very clear that the confusion between Israel and Judaism is one that has been created by Zionists who claim that Israel is a Judaic state and try and make it into a religious theocracy. It's not these protestors who are falsely associating the actions of Israel with those of Judaism, it's the Zionists who have been doing it since the 19th century.

It's very understandable that some people see Israel and Judaism as being the same thing, because there are whole teams of Zionists working to try and get people to believe exactly that, because it gives them religious cover for their actions. False accusations of anti-semitism have ruined the lives of many human rights campaigners, and many politicians. Lying about anti-semitism and promoting misinformation about Judaism has been a very successful tactic for those Zionists seeking to promote only their particular version of a Judaic Israel.

It needs to be recognised that there are indeed Jewish people who are doing horrible things in the name of both Judaism and Israel. If you have Jewish leaders telling you "You're not a true Jew if you don't support the right of Israel to do whatever it likes to the Palestinians including massacre and torture them," then the natural conclusion anyone would draw from that statement is that true Jews are horrible people. That still doesn't mean they should be attacked, but people are only human. That negative feeling is going to be expressed in some form.

The only way anyone can believe different is if they know enough about Judaism to know that the statement is false, and how many people know enough about Judaism to warrant them challenging the Chief Rabbi of Israel?

[thorny stone]

So I think if we're looking for the reason for the increase in actual acts of anti-semitism, Netanyahu and Yitzhak Yosef and others like them are it. They are lying about Judaism, spreading horrible misinformation about Judaism, either for their own political gains, or else they're doing it to try and fight a religious crusade because they believe their god makes them special. Either way, they are very clearly the cause of both the current problems with the Palestinians, and the rise in anti-semitism around the world.

[zenith coyote]

where did you get 140 years? Palestine does have the power to stop the war by not attacking and endagering israeli lives. Like ive said before if hamas focused on their humanitarian infrastructure instead of the terrorist infrastructure the middle east would be a completely different place. This war with hamas is very unique in that they are completely out gunned and know that israel can wipe them out but they wont because they actually care about people, hamas knows if they keep hiding behind their civilians and making bogus claims about death numbers than the world will keep blaming israel, even when hamas shoots rockets out of civilian places

[zenith coyote]

It does significantly affect everybody in the world. Thats like saying that british colonialism doesnt affect anybody. The ottoman empire was around until almost the first world war, holding the most land? of all empires. That whole area and histoy have been changed my muslim conquest. Youre telling me with $40 billion dollars of aid palestine doesn't have the resources or funds to create something israel wouldnt destroy? Israel has blame but so do the people who are being taught hatred instead of love and trying to rebuild their own history. There are protests against hamas in palestine, the hamas fighters shoot and kill thier own people while starving them when they try to get food. Hamas is just as bad for the region as Bibi is and they are both to blame.

[zenith coyote]

so are you saying that the anti-semetism in the media is warrented because of a few extremists? That is the same reasoning people have for islamicphobia. I would like to see examples of these politicians and news casters having lives ruined for false anti semtism, i will show you 3 examples of politicans who lives havent been ruined from anti semitism.

[zenith coyote]

The nakbah was an horrific event that i put the blame on both israel and the british powers for not overseeing it more peacefully. I am glad you are calling it a war and not a genocide since there are clearly two powers going on that hate each other, i firmly believe in a two state solution however unlikely it seems right now. There is definetly an almost suprecmacy mindset of the jewish people needing their own land, that is what happens when your whole history is one of prosecution and you see the world as against you. I firmly believe in jews having their own state and shutter to think what would happen if israel wasn't formed after ww2. That doesnt mean that i disvalue the lives that were lost in the creator of the jewish state but i dont know enough to firmly put the blame. Hamas has spent almost $20 million on missles since the start of the war

[zenith coyote]

That is like saying because Mao and Kim jang are horrible people i should be allowed to beat up on asians

Which is just clearly fucked up logic

The cause of anti semitism is not from the leaders of the jewish state but from the media taking that point of view you just mentioned, that the jews "deserve this" because of the war

[zenith coyote]

thank you, neither media wants to report on this but thats a good protest against netanyahu

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/391687

https://www.newsweek.com/iran-celebrates-pro-palestinian-protests-spreading-across-us-colleges-1895327

if these are the types of people supporting the protest...

iran is the biggest funder of terrorist organizations in the world

Iran is backing hamas just as much as US is backing Israel

This war isnt just from US, Palestine and Israel. so many people are making profits off this and using it to fund their legitamancy

people are calling Houthis innocent freedom fighters when they are a US designated terroist group, also backed back iran

no matter how many "jews for peace" tell you getting rid of Israel will be good for the world, it wont be. The inventions and ideas that theyve created are key in current day. The safe space for the jewish people who are still recovering is vital, even if they think it doesn't help them. This isn't just propaganda

once again this doesnt mean i support the treatment of palestinians as they are today, but Israel is needed for the continutation of jewish survival

[thorny stone]

I got 140 years from the date of the First Aliyah, which commenced around the 1880s, which was the first large-scale migration of Jews to the area.

Palestinians stopping attacking Israel wouldn't end the war, because the Israelis would still be attacking Palestinians. Israel isn't attacking the Palestinians in response to Palestinian attacks, it's attacking Palestinians in order to try and remove Palestinians from the whole area claimed by groups like Likud, which is everything west of the River Jordan. A lot of the Israeli leaders do not see Palestinians as having the right to live in Gaza or the West Bank. All that would happen if the Palestinians stopping defending themselves is Israel would massacre them faster.

I explained why Hamas can't focus on humanitarian efforts already. That would be ignoring the problem of Israeli attacks, which is obviously not a realistic thing to ask of anyone.

Israel can't wipe out Hamas and they know it. Every time Israel kills someone, it creates a whole bunch more people that hate Israel. Israel is trying to keep Hamas in place as long as possible, because they feel it gives them an excuse to do what they really want, which is gradually remove Arabs from the whole region.

We've covered the casualty figures previously in this discussion. There's no evidence the figures we get from the Palestinian Ministry of Health are any more unreliable than any other figures. The UN considers their data the most reliable data we have, and broadly accurate even if exact figures are impossible to obtain.

If you are fighting a war against a vastly superior military, then you use guerrilla tactics. Everything Hamas does is the expected result of Israel's actions. Israel are forcing Hamas to fight this war, and it's very silly to complain when your enemy fights back.

[zenith coyote]

What youve just created is a circular argument about the palestinians attacking israel and israel attacking palestinians. If hamas truly cared about their people thye wouldnt hide behind civilians knowing that israel has to attack back, they wouldnt tell thei rpeople to die saying they would become matyrs. Do you truly believe that if hamas stopped attacking israel then israel would just go in and massacre everyone? If they did that then they would actually get backlash from the UN that would be justified. Nobodly is complaining more than hamas for israel attacking them back. You cant go into another country, rape kill and take hostages, then complain when they bombard you and call for a ceasefire.

Hamas can 100% invent in humanitarian efforts with the money they have. Their leaders are billionairs living in Qatar, they dont care about their people

So building theri miles and miles of terror tunnels under schools, and hospitals is vital to palestinain survival?

It seems to both of us that neither side in power wants to stop the war ebcause it helps them both, but you want full blame on Israel while not condemning hamas for their actions

At no time in war has any country or territory getting attacked been able to give their death toll numbers as fast as Hamas has given them, the number has been lowered by the UN. At no point in a war has the civilian casualty rate been lower than the rate now in the war against hamas in regard to terrorit at almost 2:1 maybe even 3:1, it is usally 9:1

as much as you hate to admit it Israel is doing everything in their power to not wipe out the people of palestine, they already have the power to but as you said they dont want every hating them. I wont claim to know the bad part of Israels history because its all he say, and i will condemn for torture and massacre of citizens, but i wont condemn them for how they have taken actions in this war

hamas calculates what israel will do and knows how the world will react to them, they are fighting a poltical war here trying to outlast until the world condemns them. That is a victory in their eyes

[thorny stone]

What has the Ottoman Empire got to do with Palestine turning Islamic? The Ottoman empire didn't arise until 1299 CE, and Palestine was converted to Islam by 640 CE. Those events are more than 600 years apart.

Yes, absolutely, $40bn spread over 26 years to look after more than 5 million Palestinians does not give them the resources to create things Israel won't destroy. By comparison, Israel spends $27bn on its military per year.

I agree Hamas is bad for the area. But it is purely a symptom of Israel's actions. We can't have anything better until Israel allows it.

[thorny stone]

It's not "a few extremists". It's literally the government and Chief Rabbi of Israel, and thousands more in all kinds of positions of power. It's the IDF leaders, it's Mossad, it's the settlers who go round killing Palestinians for fun. There are absolutely tons of people who are Jewish who are claiming that their religion justifies them acting horribly towards the Palestinians and anyone else who gets in their way. Even though it's the minority, their propaganda and their drive for power is such that they are the dominant message that people see associated with Judaism.

You want examples of false anti-semitism accusations ruining lives? Ok. Jeremy Corbyn. Diane Abbott. Chris WIlliamson. There's three to start with.

[thorny stone]

Ok, no, let me be clear. Israel is conducting a war of ethnic cleansing that has, at times, strayed into genocide. The main motivation is simply to remove the Arabs from the region rather than kill them, but killing them in large numbers is absolutely one method of removing them that has been used.
Also, let's not talk about it in the past tense. The Nakba is still going on.

I recommend that you read the summary of the history that I provided earlier in this discussion, that I linked you to, for more information about the events around the creation of Israel. The actions of the Zionists at that time are impossible to defend. They were being given a state by the UN, and they chose to try and take more by force.

[thorny stone]

Although there might be something in some media somewhere that has said that Jews deserve to be attacked, that's not a view I've seen anywhere, in any of the media surrounding this.

I would imagine that there will be some Islamic media that will carry that view, given the current state of war that exists. But then there is inaccurate propaganda on both sides, designed to motivate their team. Any student of history knows not to trust what gets put in the media during war times. The only way people stop saying horrible things about each other, is if the war stops. And that means Israel changing.

[thorny stone]

Terrorism is just another name for war. If you protect your military targets well enough then people will eventually target your weaker areas. The only difference between Hamas and Hezbollah and the Houthis and the Taliban and all the rest of the organisations designated as 'terrorist' by the US, and the US or Israel, is that we live in places where US and Israeli propaganda dominate. They're fighting wars against each other, and they're all acting horribly. There's no justification for singling out one side over the other.

[thorny stone]

I haven't seen the idea of "getting rid of Israel" mentioned here. My impression is that it only exists in the war propaganda, and that practically no one is seriously calling for it.

I have no problem with Jews having a safe space. It's a really good idea for everyone to have a safe space. But safe spaces don't mean places where they can do whatever they like to other people. Nobody has the right to harm others. They're never going to have a safe space in practice while people are committing horrible acts of torture and murder and theft in their name.

If Israel wasn't committing horrible acts in the name of Judaism, I think most places in the world would be fine to live as a Jewish person. Most places still are, even with it. There are millions of Jews around the world that don't experience any more issues than anyone else. I don't think any religion needs its own country in order for people to live in safety. The problem arise when the way you want to practice your religion infringes on other people, such as by stealing their land, or murdering them, or forbidding all contact with non-Jews, which are all things that one of the Chief Rabbis of Israel promotes. There is no place in the world where you can practice those values in safety.

[thorny stone]

It's spiralling now, certainly. But it's not circular, because it has a clear start, which was the Zionist migration to Palestine in an attempt to seize the land by force.

Yes, I absolutely believe that Israel would continue to massacre innocent Palestinians even if Hamas stopped firing rockets in return. It seems incredibly clear that that is the case, given all of the stated aims of the various Israeli groups and armed forces, and their previous actions. Likkud, the ruling party of Israel, explicitly states that in their view all the lands west of the River Jordan rightfully belong to Israel, which include Gaza and the West Bank. The guy who founded it thought they should rule Jordan as well. IDF generals have explicitly stated that they treat civilian targets as though they are military, and we still have the records from the 1930s and 1940s which show the Zionist plans to rule the whole region by deliberately terrorising and massacring Arabs until they all leave or die. Everything Israel does, and has done, is following that plan. So we're not using guesswork when we say Israel plans to remove the Palestinians entirely. We're literally just reading what the Zionists wrote down.

Israel is, explicitly, just going in and massacring everyone, at as fast a rate as they think they can get away with. They are only barely pretending to be trying to go after Hamas, in order to appease the US just enough so that the US protects them from the UN.
What Hamas did on October 7th was horrible, clearly. But Israel has done far worse, both before and after. What Israel is doing now isn't in any way a response to those events, those event are just being used as a cover for Israeli military action to destroy more Palestinian areas.

[thorny stone]

The leaders of Hamas live in Qatar because if they lived anywhere closer they would already have been killed by Israel. It's a simple act of self-preservation. And the idea that they are billionaires and don't care about their people is simply a lie spread by Israel, without any factual basis.

[thorny stone]

In a word, yes. Hamas is fighting their side of the war the only way it is possible to do so. They can't build military installations, so have to use civilian ones instead. There are no other options available to them.

[thorny stone]

I've condemned Hamas for their actions, repeatedly. But they are not the ones responsible for starting this war, and they have no power to end it. So the ultimate responsibility for this war lies with Israel, not Hamas.

[thorny stone]

If you ask them for numbers they will give them. And their figures are generally broadly accurate according to the UN, even if some people are later found. But it's not like they need to exaggerate the numbers. Even Israel's own fake numbers are still ridiculously high.

The civilian casualty rate is substantially worse with Israel and the Palestinians than in other recent wars. In Iraq the numbers were 28,000 combatants to 13,000 civilians, and in Afghanistan it was 60,000 soldiers to 30,000 civilians, taking into account only the direct military strikes. The numbers of civilian deaths in wars only increases substantially when the wider effects of the conflict are brought into account, and if you include them then Israel's numbers will increase hugely with the current starvation they are responsible for. All the evidence points to Israel killing far more civilians with its military strikes than happens with most wars. We know it's a deliberate tactic with Israel, when it's not usually for most other wars, so that makes sense.

[thorny stone]

There's no evidence Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties. All the evidence is that they are deliberately targeting civilians.

[thorny stone]

Israel also calculates that. They know that Hamas and the other Palestinians will keep fighting back as long as Israel gives them no other options. Israel knows they could end the fighting tomorrow if they agreed to peace talks. But they choose to continue fighting, because it helps them achieve their goals of conquering the whole region. That's the only thing that continuing the fighting helps achieve. It doesn't persuade Palestinians to stop fighting in the slightest, quite the opposite, and everyone knows it. This war by Israel only has one goal, the removal of all Palestinians from the lands Israel wants.

[radiant dirge]

what a CaveMan statement lmao.

@short rivet how tf are you going to ignore what **INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE ** is saying today? I bet they do more research and understand a lot more than we know.

[forest vale]

Lol, the ICC is a joke, that's how. If they actually had a history of prosecuting human rights grievances, then it would be a different story. But they're a political tool, not one for justice.

[radiant dirge]

Oh i see. I thought ICJ means something

How about UN?

[radiant dirge]

is UN also a joke?

[forest vale]

When you put the worst human rights offenders on your human rights council to judge others, then the jokes really start writing themselves.

[radiant dirge]

@forest vale do you think UN is also a joke?

[short rivet]

The ICJ did not accuse Israel of warcrimes

Members of the ICJ

Idid

Bear in mind

Members of the ICJ means it is entirely am opinion piece

I studied the ICC this semester and addressed this very question

Also in terms of the ICC many of its current members do not Like Israel and have been open about that fact

[radiant dirge]

I think you are right, members did and ICC made a decision, right?

im not into politics that but im not sure whats your point:

[short rivet]

On 20 May 2024, the ICC Prosecutor filed applications for warrants of arrest before Pre-Trial Chamber I:

He is a prosecuter

Its his job

To say that

He represents the palestinian government

Its like asking a prosecuter if a murder defendant is guilty

[short rivet]

This is incorrect

Well not incorrect

The court ruled in favor of ending the conflict

Not that warcrimes were committed

War is by nature illegal

The original warcrimes case is still pending

And to my knowledge

[radiant dirge]

Did people do what the court ordered?

[short rivet]

The ICC is still trying to pursue the netanyahu administration

[short rivet]

No why should they

The ICC has no place there

No one on the ICCis even from the region

Nor been there

[radiant dirge]

so the International Criminal Court cannot do anything?

why is it international?

[short rivet]

Correct

Cause its an extension of the UN

[radiant dirge]

So all the Countries in the UN is saying another member to not do/do something, and they are not complying with the group order?

[short rivet]

Actually no

[forest vale]

Israel does not accept ICC jurisdiction and is not a member state of the ICC.

[short rivet]

There are 15 people on the ICC

Not 194

[short rivet]

Also true

On top of this

It was a unilateral submission

By a state Israel does not even recognize

Palestine submitted the grievience

[radiant dirge]

oh, just 15? and they represent 15 countries only?

and other countries are ok not doing what those people order them to do?

[short rivet]

They dont even represent one country per

Many more signatories than 15

And no many countries take issue with the ICC

[radiant dirge]

what does it mean?

[short rivet]

Palestine accused Israel of warcrimes

The ICC conducted an "investisgation"

Then dismissed the allegations

[radiant dirge]

Then ordered

[short rivet]

Palestine then accused Israel of violating their sovereignty

Which the ICC ruled as true

Even though they are not even a recognized state

[radiant dirge]

So if you are Russia or the US and do not recognize the ICC or UN or anything. You can do whatever you want?

[short rivet]

Israel has of course denied this as they rightly would

Yes and no

That begins an extremely complex conversation of normative behavior

And normative conformity

[radiant dirge]

What org/group is supposed to stop one stronger country invading another like Rus/Ukr

[brittle quiver]

i think there's a concept going on here assuming that state actors are somehow supreme to individual actors

[short rivet]

They are

Inherantly

[brittle quiver]

are theyy?

[short rivet]

Yes

By definition

Tge pope does not have a delegate in the UN

[brittle quiver]

what's stopping me from establishing my own state and claiming my own land

[radiant dirge]

.

[forest vale]

I don't know how Arklar justifies pretending that no one is calling for getting rid of Israel. It's literally in the Hamas charter. It's explicit, not even implicit or up for interpretation. It's also part of what Iran, Hezbollah, and many, many protestors call for specifically. I don't know how much clearer you can get than "death to Israel." It's also very clear in the slogans chanted, calling for intifada, which were violent revolts intended to remove Israel and wipe out a bunch of Jews, and then of course the classic "From the a river to the sea" chants, which not at all subtly refers to the removal of all of Israel from the region, which again is explicitly found in the charter of Hamas and others.

[short rivet]

The existence of other states

As they will stop you

If you mean recognition

[brittle quiver]

then the whole thing becomes a race to the bottom in which stronger state actors "vanquish" weaker state actors

[short rivet]

Incorrect

By this logic

Humanity should not have states

[brittle quiver]

there's no reason state actors are superior

[brittle quiver]

ideally yeah

ideally we'd all just get along

[short rivet]

Again

Your wrong

[radiant dirge]

@short rivet

[brittle quiver]

SPELLING MISTAKE I WIN

[short rivet]

The international commubity

And likely war

As we see now

If you want Russia out

You have to beat them

[brittle quiver]

there's no "international community" the whole thing is a construct designed to prop the west up as hegemonic

rus ukraine war proves that the "international community" is completely fake

[radiant dirge]

@Fal

[brittle quiver]

lio breaks down

[radiant dirge]

@forest vale you still think ICC and UN is a joke?

I would love to hear you say one more time

[brittle quiver]

it's a joke in the sense that there's no scenario in which a the international forum can convince a superpower to change policy

the whole thing desencds into a scenario in which powerful countries abuse the forum

[short rivet]

Thats not what its for

[brittle quiver]

it is

it literally is

[short rivet]

And had never been

Where

[brittle quiver]

look at the paris accords

[short rivet]

Not backed

[brittle quiver]

international community wants to fight cc

not the un specifically just lio in general

[short rivet]

Look at the nuremburg trials

[brittle quiver]

that's a sham

[short rivet]

Lmao

No

[brittle quiver]

allies wanted to persecute the axis powers

and allies were in power

[short rivet]

Bruh

[brittle quiver]

so that's what happened

[short rivet]

Do you actually think thag

[brittle quiver]

i mean it's justified in the sense that they completely had it coming

[short rivet]

Do you really believe goring was innocent

[brittle quiver]

like i'm not a holocaust denier or anything

[brittle quiver]

hell no

that's not what i'm saying bruh

[short rivet]

So how can you say thay

They had trials

In fact

Thats precisely why

Donitz walked

[brittle quiver]

that wasn't an "international forum"

[short rivet]

So many different states banding togrther and agreeing on something isnt international

And not community

[brittle quiver]

if a territory like india disagreed with major actors such as the us and the soviets would anything really have happened

[short rivet]

India wasnt a state

[brittle quiver]

that's why i said territory

[short rivet]

If france did then yes

[radiant dirge]

ok we are going off topic ig

[brittle quiver]

france was one of the major actors

[radiant dirge]

i dont understand anything

[forest vale]

Yes, obviously. I think you're very much confusing "something happening" with "the ultimate outcome changing substantially.

[short rivet]

Which is why I selecyed them

[brittle quiver]

wdym

[short rivet]

I selected people there

Not obscure non states

If mexico raised complaint

Yeah

They wouldve been forced to pursue longer legal processes

[brittle quiver]

just beause a nation isn't a state doesn't mean that the people there should have less voice

[short rivet]

Which is what hapoened

[brittle quiver]

if the only thing differentiating the nation of india from the state of india is international norms than that's wrong

[short rivet]

The soviets wanted donitz before a firing squad

[forest vale]

That's actually literally what that means

That's the whole point of being recognized as a state.

[brittle quiver]

nah

[brittle quiver]

state recognition doesn't mean shit

[forest vale]

The international community collectively recognizes your rights to a voice.

[short rivet]

Falcon im starting to think this guy is a Nazbol

[brittle quiver]

i don't need any recognition to my right

like obviously i'm just a high school student that did reading on ir and i'm still learning a lot

[forest vale]

I mean... if you're trying to talk to the international community, it helps if they recognize that you have a voice.

[brittle quiver]

i might be way out of my depth here

[forest vale]

You can talk all you want, but there's no reason for them to listen to you.

Therefore, if they aren't listening, you have no voice.

[short rivet]

You definitely are if you think your voice is equatable to a state

[brittle quiver]

my view is that the international community as it exists is a sham, lio is backed by a system that prioritizes profit

[brittle quiver]

not mine specifically

[short rivet]

Welcome to the world

Everything is

Humans are

You are

[brittle quiver]

squo doesn't mean it's right

the whole point of discussion is to spark change

[short rivet]

I like a world backed by substantive values

Otherwise you must recognize everyones views

[forest vale]

If India disagrees with the actions of other actors, that will ultimately have significant consequences. It might lead to substantial changes in immediate agreements or future relations, economic consequences, or a number of other things. That doesn't mean that any of it will ultimately change the outcome in the way they were hoping, because it's more than just India with a voice, and the others get a say as well.

[brittle quiver]

not inherently

[short rivet]

Yeah actually

Animals are motivated by self gain

Humans included

[brittle quiver]

altruism exists

[forest vale]

If you think profit is the enemy, then you are the problem.

[short rivet]

But thats am entirely different conversation

[brittle quiver]

profit literally has corporations cutting down the amazon rainforest

[short rivet]

Herm do you believe in religious seperation

[brittle quiver]

profit is literally the problem

[brittle quiver]

wdym

[short rivet]

Should the catholic church be a part of every government

[brittle quiver]

like church and state

[short rivet]

Yup

[brittle quiver]

hell no

[short rivet]

Why not

It represemts many people views

By your own logic it should

[brittle quiver]

how so

[short rivet]

If states dont matter

[brittle quiver]

in my ideal world states wouldn't matter

[forest vale]

Profit is simply providing goods and services in exchange for money. Getting rid of profit means getting rid of goods and services, and the entire world suffers massively, as has happened every time communism has been tried. That's why the stores in Romania were empty during communism. Same with North Korea.

[short rivet]

Then the catholic church should

[brittle quiver]

and the usfg would have the same signiificance as the church down the street

but in the squo obviously states do matter

[short rivet]

It represents more people then any state

[brittle quiver]

and having the gov in bed with religion raises it's own hell of issues

[forest vale]

If all voices are equal, then no voice actually matters.

[short rivet]

So then states are above the voices of people

Cause the catholic church is ran by people

And has many believers

That adgere and agree with it

[brittle quiver]

yes and the catholic church doesn't tell me what to do

[short rivet]

Your missing the point

[brittle quiver]

the only reason people follow catcholicism is purely moral

[short rivet]

The only reason anyone does anything not for self gain is moral

[brittle quiver]

from what i understand about catholicism the whole theology is extremely elitists

so might not be the best example

[short rivet]

Its the perfect example

Of the problem with the idea that people are equal to the states they reside in

Thats called mob rule

And Catholics have used that very principle before the existence of states to persecute and attack people

[brittle quiver]

catholiticism operated basically like a state

christendom was basically a state

[short rivet]

Thats actually the worst take ever

[brittle quiver]

💀 mb

[short rivet]

States as we know them were made in the 1700s

[brittle quiver]

that's why i say basically lmao

[short rivet]

States did not have borders in 1300s

[forest vale]

It also cut the world's poverty rate from 76% in 1820 to 10% in 2018.

[brittle quiver]

you can't contend the idea that christnedom operated as a state

[brittle quiver]

at what cost

[short rivet]

Where was located

[brittle quiver]

europe

[short rivet]

Oh

So Ethopia is not real

Neither was sudan

[brittle quiver]

christendom as an entity had major presence in europe

[short rivet]

Actually

[brittle quiver]

europe and north africa

some

if i remember

[short rivet]

More Christians lived outside Europe

China

Iran

Syria

[brittle quiver]

that was not 1300 buddy

[short rivet]

Yeah

Actually it was

[brittle quiver]

christendom as an entity resided in europe

[short rivet]

Bruh im deax

[brittle quiver]

that's where the church had the most influence

[forest vale]

At the cost of billions of people no longer dying, and most nations actually not knowing the concept of war, because entire generations have avoided it.

[short rivet]

Mans is literally dismissing the existence of half the christian world

[brittle quiver]

profit has literally been the cause of multiple wars

[short rivet]

One second

[brittle quiver]

corporate wars from like united fruit in central america

[forest vale]

Absolutely. And somehow, the same profit has managed to be a reason for peace.

[short rivet]

Christianity first came to mainland Southeast Asia through the French in Vietnam. Although Christianity started to arrive in Vietnam in the 1300s,

[brittle quiver]

profit isn't an evil force, but when it becomes the sole driving factor behind society it inevitably becomes bad

[forest vale]

The peace has been much stronger than the war, as evidenced by the reality of the current world.

[brittle quiver]

the very concept of cap requires infinite growth in a finite world

[forest vale]

There's never a sole driving factor.

[brittle quiver]

it is

it is in today's lio

[forest vale]

Na, that's a pretty warped view. People always have many factors at play. Profit is only one of the many, in every case.

[brittle quiver]

it is the sole driving factor in today's lio

[short rivet]

Herm you have yet to tell me where the army of the Catholic state was

[forest vale]

This makes no sense.

[short rivet]

Or what laws it had

[brittle quiver]

In essence, the earliest vision of Christendom was a vision of a Christian theocracy, a government founded upon and upholding Christian values, whose institutions are spread through and over with Christian doctrine.

[brittle quiver]

it does

[short rivet]

That doesnt anzer my questions

[forest vale]

Capitalism is providing value in exchange for money. There's nothing about that concept that requires infinite growth.

[brittle quiver]

i never said christendom was a state i said it operated as one

[short rivet]

And also by the logic all Religions are states

Which you have yet to prove

Beliefs dont make a state

The papacy was a state

[brittle quiver]

in a system where there's monetary value assigned to materials, the maximally best outcome for me would for me to amass infinite materials for infinite value

there's finite resources

[forest vale]

If it operates as a state, then you still need to point out how it operated as a state, which very much includes the things @short rivet is asking about.

[forest vale]

That's not true at all.

[brittle quiver]

urban literally ordered a war

[short rivet]

Your joking right?

Please tell me your joking

[brittle quiver]

idk like i said i'm a hs student this is just based on my understanding

[short rivet]

You think pope urban sat down the emperor of the HRE and told him he needed to invade the holy land for no reason

No he asked the Emeperor to raise armies and encourage holy people to rally and invade jerusalem

And guess what

[brittle quiver]

holy roman empire

that's what i was missing

can't get more state than that

[forest vale]

You've got the idea that there are a finite amount of resources that everyone competes over. This is fundamentally wrong.

While it is true that some things aren't infinite, me planting a garden creates value at no cost to anyone else. I have not stolen from anyone else's value if I take a white canvas and paint a picture. I have not harmed anyone by taking raw ingredients and turning them into a fancy meal. There are infinite ways of creating new value with existing resources, but also infinite ways of creating new resources.

[brittle quiver]

profit encourages competition

[short rivet]

The HRE emeperor gave him nothing he just asked his dukes if they want to pitch in

[brittle quiver]

you planting the garden on that land means i can't plant my garden there

if you take a white canvas that means i have one less possible canvas

[short rivet]

The HRE was not even a state

It was more of an amalgam

[forest vale]

Thats not what competition is.

[brittle quiver]

states don't have to be official to function like one

[brittle quiver]

it literally is

[forest vale]

That's not at all true.

[brittle quiver]

it literally is?

you painting means that if i'm a painter we have to share the market base

that's direct competition

so if i want to maximize my profit i get rid of you

that way i double profit

[forest vale]

Someone doing something doesn't automatically make it competition with the rest of the world.

[short rivet]

https://images.app.goo.gl/53qtJ4WgXwSRpFZr6

[brittle quiver]

it does as soon as profit gets invovled

[short rivet]

Thats not a state

Thats a political organization at best

And more often than not it was fighting itself kore than its own enemies

[forest vale]

A far more realistic scenario is that as a result of someone gardening, someone else now has vegetables to sell in his market, and a cook is able to make food. There's absolutely competition fostered in general, but it's not due to a lack of resources. Each person doing something creates more possibilities and more resources.

[radiant dirge]

There is no use in going back to who owned where ig

[forest vale]

You act like there would be more things available if no one did anything. That's pure insanity. Everyone would be dirt poor with no food, no shelter, and no resources if no one did anything.

[short rivet]

Although France after the French Revolution (1787–99) is often cited as the first nation-state, some scholars consider the establishment of the English Commonwealth in 1649 as the earliest instance of nation-state creation.

[brittle quiver]

ok the concept of you gardening and you selling to the market and the cook making food completely misses the underlyign point, which is that there's other people competing do the exact same thing

[short rivet]

This is where states come from

[brittle quiver]

i never said christendom was a state i said the european christendom functioned like one

in the sense that the whole thing was one entity with a religous identity

[short rivet]

Again

So is the middle east

Is the entire middle east a state

[brittle quiver]

the middle east has wildly diverse ideologies

[short rivet]

So did europe

What are you saying

[brittle quiver]

the entirety of europe was catholic until henry or something

they had a religious identity

[short rivet]

The middle was muslim

And still is

[brittle quiver]

i thought you meant contemporary

[short rivet]

What are you talkimg about

Even now

[brittle quiver]

isreal is a thing there

[short rivet]

Thats tge only one

Bohemia was Hussite

Same logic

[brittle quiver]

there's a whole range of muslims in the middle east

[short rivet]

Hell gemany was pagan

[forest vale]

That's also absolutely not how it works. An art collector doesn't get less interested when a new painter is discovered. On the contrary. More people get interested in also having a painting, and often look into local painters to see if they have something available. So the existence of a painter is beneficial for other painters, rather than being competition for finite demand.

Of course there are also elements of competition, but this idea of a zero sum game where getting rid of your competition is the way to win is so incredibly far from reality and extremely unhealthy. It will harm people and leave you poorer, not rich and successful.

[brittle quiver]

wheras even though chrsitianity has denominations, europe was catholic

under one church

the catholic church

the two are not analougs

[short rivet]

Dude

Your kiddingg right

[brittle quiver]

cap is a purely competitive economic system

to think otherwise is naive

[forest vale]

Hardly. The fact that I'm doing something means that more people get involved in using the resources, therefore creating more demand. And if I do what I'm going well, then the demand will outpace my supply, to the point where others have to help me manage it.

[short rivet]

https://images.app.goo.gl/ypKwB5Bv3vdERPdJ9

What is that

[brittle quiver]

you tell me

[forest vale]

Have you never been part of a business before? Never actually created value for anyone?

[short rivet]

Thats a map of religiom

All of those are dominantly muslim stayes

Broken up by the two islamoc sects

[brittle quiver]

uh in case you missed where i said this like five times i'm a high school student

sophmore year

[short rivet]

Shia amd Sunni

[brittle quiver]

the only work i've done was lifeguarding at the school's pool

[short rivet]

I forgive your ingorance as your still learning

[brittle quiver]

wait do some of the religions intersect state borders

[forest vale]

Yep. And most people I know were actually involved in some sort of actual work while they were growing up, so they don't reach adulthood with the embarrassing prospect of being a completely useless human and have to learn everything from scratch despite 12 years of school.

[short rivet]

Yeah and no

Of course

Because religion is spread out

[brittle quiver]

why are yall so agressive righ tnow 💀

[brittle quiver]

exactly

[short rivet]

So by defnition you meed cohesiom to be a stats

[forest vale]

I don't know how the only thing you've learned is that everyone involved in business is harming the world, but your school system clearly failed you.

[brittle quiver]

so the concept of a state where you arbritraily group people together and give them a "voice" is wrong

[short rivet]

Correct

[brittle quiver]

ok i happen to be pretty knowledgable in ir and contemporary government

enough to know corporations is killing the world

[short rivet]

Thats a gross misunderstanding of stayes

[brittle quiver]

you realize that the average salary for ceos have like quadrupled the last few years while minimum wage stayed the same

[short rivet]

Thats only really an issue in colonial regions

[brittle quiver]

if you think cap is working for you you're completely wrong

[short rivet]

Where colonization fucked up borders

[brittle quiver]

colonization was a result of cap

[forest vale]

Hang on, you want to talk about my life now? Claim that capitalism isn't working for me? That seems a bit ridiculous.

[short rivet]

Capitalism is as old as currency then by that logic

[brittle quiver]

@forest vale https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t0TX4Sh-Wdis_BpPfIqMB2CGwuSBL_Lg/edit

give this a read

[short rivet]

So capitalism literally created society

[brittle quiver]

the life of the average person

[short rivet]

By your logic

[brittle quiver]

how the fuck

[short rivet]

Currency by your logic is capitalism

[brittle quiver]

no?

[short rivet]

You just said colonialism

[forest vale]

You missed the part where the entire world was in extreme poverty didn't you.

[short rivet]

Do you even know when colonialsm started?

[brittle quiver]

the drive for profit was literally the cause of colonialism?

[short rivet]

Dude

[brittle quiver]

european powers wanted to exapand influence and grab resources

[short rivet]

So yes

Capitalism literally created society

[brittle quiver]

that mindset is parallel to a cap one

[short rivet]

Thats the same reason rome existed and expanded

[brittle quiver]

noooo?

rome was imperalistic

[short rivet]

WHAT

[brittle quiver]

not colionalistic

it's different

[short rivet]

Dude

Why do you colonize

[forest vale]

What exactly does 76% living in extreme poverty mean to you?

[brittle quiver]

roman expansion wasn't driven as much by the need for competiton with peers as much as its own desire to exapdn

[short rivet]

Dude

[brittle quiver]

sounds a shit ton like the modern world?

[short rivet]

It was for resources and money

Romans didnt fight wars because they could

[brittle quiver]

european colonilaism specifically was a result of competition with peers

[short rivet]

They wanted wealth

And to destroy rivals

Like Carthage

[forest vale]

Dude are you sure you actually went to school?

[short rivet]

Macedon

And the Gauls

Imperialism is colonialism

[brittle quiver]

that's just not true

[short rivet]

Colonialism is where one country physically exerts complete control over another country and Imperialism is formal or informal economic and political domination of one country over the other. In a nutshell, colonialism can be thought of as the practice of domination and imperialism as an idea behind the practice.

[brittle quiver]

they're not synonyms

[short rivet]

No

Colonialism is imperialism

[brittle quiver]

ok what the fuck is your problem

[short rivet]

Its a subset

Dominions imperialism

Colonies imperialism

Its all imperialism

[forest vale]

In 1820, 76% of the world was in extreme poverty. That was before capitalism was a big influence. 2018, as a result of capitalism, they were at 10%.

So how does your view somehow end up that the modern world is at 76% extreme poverty?

[brittle quiver]

extreme poverty is a social construct

poverty is set at an artifical rate

[short rivet]

Not really

Poverty is calculated

[forest vale]

The only way you'd deny that the entire world is not, in fact, living in extreme poverty is if you don't have an education.

[brittle quiver]

the threshold of poverty is artifical and arbitrary

[short rivet]

Its determiend by calculating the amount of money needed to feed yourself housr yourself and live

Incorrect

As I just mentioned it is determined by cost of living

If you want I cam cite it for you

[brittle quiver]

A 2023 survey conducted by Payroll.org highlighted that 78% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, a 6% increase from the previous year. In other words, more than three-quarters of Americans struggle to save or invest after paying for their monthly expenses.

[short rivet]

They can still live

They are not starving to death

[brittle quiver]

you realize that minimum wage in the us means barely affording an apartment and eating ramen noodles every day right?

[forest vale]

That's not even remotely close to what extreme poverty refers to.

[short rivet]

The poverty line is usually calculated by estimating the total cost of one year's worth of necessities for the average adult.

[brittle quiver]

capitalism does not work for the average person and if you believe otherwise you have been brainwashed

[short rivet]

Dude im living it

I made 7 dollars an hour

4 years ago

I now make 17

[forest vale]

But if you believe that Americans are living in extreme poverty, then you've definitely been brainwashed.

[short rivet]

I can live easily off my cirrent money

[forest vale]

For the record, the extreme poverty line right now is $2 per day.

[short rivet]

And bear in mind the federal minumum wage is low because its the same as the lowest state

[short rivet]

No

Well yes and no

Not really

[forest vale]

It obviously depends on where you live.

[brittle quiver]

If you think extreme poverty is the only thing that constitutes poor quality of life then you have extremely low standards

[forest vale]

We're not talking about low quality of life.

[brittle quiver]

uh i am

[short rivet]

Thats not what you said

[brittle quiver]

uh it literally is?

[short rivet]

Your didnt say that

[brittle quiver]

cap does not work for the average person

[short rivet]

One sec ill quote you

[forest vale]

Extreme poverty is where you couldn't care less about your quality of life. You care about whether your life continues.

[brittle quiver]

that's literally all that i've been saying

[forest vale]

If you have the luxury of caring about your quality of life, then you aren't living in extreme poverty.

[brittle quiver]

ok and the fact that 18% of the world is living that while multi trillion dollar companies sit on their asses is proof that profit is evil?

there's enough food to feed everyone but that wouldn't maximize shareholder value so let's not do it

[forest vale]

10% in 2018.

76% in 1820.

That's the result of capitalism.

[short rivet]

This

[brittle quiver]

that is not the result of capitalims, that is the result of the industrial revolution

they two are seperate

[short rivet]

This

[short rivet]

This

[forest vale]

The industrial revolution that only came about because of capitalism?

[short rivet]

Do you think people got to retire before?

You think medieval peasants got to retire?

Or colonists?

I dont get your argunent

[forest vale]

I don't think you have any concept of how much suffering was involved in basic life just 200 years ago.

[brittle quiver]

Your realize that the age of retirement is like 4 fucking years before average age of death?

I think you all need to take a good hard look at reality

[forest vale]

If you get to retire, you're not dealing with extreme poverty.

[short rivet]

For much of human history it was considered a luxury to eat everyday

[brittle quiver]

Stop the corporate ass kissing

[short rivet]

I think coporatism sucks

But im not a naive child

I know the value of capitalism

To argue against the belief in a market economy is insane

What would you offer?

Communism

Anarchism?

Capitalism is integral to a developed world

[thorny stone]

A market economy is simply a tool to enable the rich and powerful to keep their wealth and power. It has no other purpose.

[short rivet]

Im dead

So no ability to own businesses

[thorny stone]

I don't know how we got onto this subject in this thread, but I guess why not?

[short rivet]

And while were at it no private property either

Cause thats all capitalism

[thorny stone]

no it's not

[short rivet]

By definition it is

Capitalism is often thought of as an economic system in which private actors own and control property in accord with their interests, and demand and supply freely set prices in markets in a way that can serve the best interests of society.

[brittle quiver]

Thank you

Finally

Inevitably there will be the elite who will use the system to stay in powere

[thorny stone]

By whose definition? Capitalism by most definitions is only the private ownership of vital resources and services.

[brittle quiver]

THANK YOU

[short rivet]

Source

[brittle quiver]

An altruistic anarchist world is my ideal

[short rivet]

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

[short rivet]

Nope

[thorny stone]

Any dictionary.

[short rivet]

I just cited one

an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

[brittle quiver]

And who the fuck are you to deny me my fantasy

[short rivet]

Crazy

[short rivet]

Cause in your amarchist society i would be the one to take your stuff lol

[forest vale]

I wonder if your schooling gave you the actual examples from history of such systems, and how many people they harmed. You're asking people to go from prosperous back to extreme poverty.

[short rivet]

Anarchism cannot work

Beyond that fact it leaves no way to punish bad actors

So as history shows

[thorny stone]

That's what I'm saying. It's private ownership of processes and resources. But it's not the only system that allows for private ownership of anything.

[short rivet]

Someone will take from others even if you dont

[thorny stone]

Not if we band together to stop them. That's called government.

[short rivet]

Cite one that allows freedom of investment

[forest vale]

By the way, we're actually down to 8.4% living in extreme poverty in 2019, and it's likely better for 2024. That's the current system at work, driven by profit. Capitalism.

[brittle quiver]

Caveman and falcon you two are genuinely the least civil people I’ve ever met

[short rivet]

Then your not anarchist

Cause now you have a government

Hence the paradox of amarchism

[thorny stone]

Freedom of investment is a bad idea, so I don't need to try and find a way to crowbar it in to a system I like.

[forest vale]

Hey, don't rope @short rivet in with me! He's way more civil than I am!

He doesn't deserve that. 🧐

[short rivet]

I see we wont see eye to eye at all

[thorny stone]

No, I'm very much not an anarchist. I see capitalism and anarchy as virtually the same thing.

[short rivet]

Your reokying to my comment on anarchism

[zenith coyote]

I’m not even going to warrant your talk about how the Iranian back organizations aren’t terrorist groups with a response. But justifying anti-semitism with blame of the Israeli government is outright anti semtic. That is like saying “if black people didn’t steal all the time then they wouldn’t have bad stereotypes”. That is blatantly racist

[thorny stone]

Government is essential, to stop private interests enslaving others.

[short rivet]

On that we agree

I love a large government

But I also like an open market

[thorny stone]

An open market is simply another way of saying you want to allow people to do whatever they like. WHich allows the rich and powerful to dominate everything.

[brittle quiver]

Stateless cap is even better than state sponsored cap

[forest vale]

The smaller the better. Can't have open markets with much government influence.

[short rivet]

Not at all

[forest vale]

That just leads to endless wars.

[short rivet]

I believe in trust busting

[forest vale]

We created states as a way to stop the endless fighting.

[short rivet]

And antimonopolistic enforcement

I just also beliece that a man should be free to spend his money

And invest his money if he wants to

I dislike multigenerational wealth and huge corps dominating

[brittle quiver]

And states solve wars?

💀

[short rivet]

An open market is not the same as an unregulated market

[zenith coyote]

Tax the billionaires

Cough cough Hamas leaders

[thorny stone]

I think you must have misread what I wrote, because I've never said that there aren't Iranian-backed groups that are terrorists. I simply said that labelling something as terrorism doesn't make it any worse than anyone else fighting a war.

I didn't at any point seek to justify anti-semitism. I simply pointed out the causes. Your definition of racism is significantly flawed.

[forest vale]

World history more than adequately answers that question. We really aren't anywhere close to the cycle of war that used to be the case. More people than ever know peace, even if war still exists.

[short rivet]

Well yes and no

Less war now does not mean less war period

[brittle quiver]

We entered the era of corporate war around the Cold War era

When companies like united fruit were doing shit in the central amercias

[thorny stone]

How do you stop that in a capitalist society? Almost every aspect of a person's life in a capitalist society depends on the family they are born into. You can't control it only with inheritance taxes.

[brittle quiver]

At the end this narrative of “I need more money” ultimately ruins everything

[short rivet]

You are correct it is a flaw

[forest vale]

I mean a few hundred years ago, everyone knew war first hand. I don't think there were many who didn't experience it in their lives. Today, the majority of people have not experienced war first hand. That's a huge change.

[short rivet]

But thay is not the end all be all reason to scrap a system

[thorny stone]

Capitalism is based on the idea that it's ok to fight your own battles. Its major flaw is that not everyone is equally capable of doing that, so it inevitably leads to increasing inequality.

[short rivet]

And inheritence taxes do help immensely especially of they are high enough

[forest vale]

Inheritance taxes are horrible.

Why would you penalize people for working hard to leave something for their kids?

[thorny stone]

Monetary wealth is only a tiny part of the advantages you get from being born into a wealthy family. You also get better education, better health, better opportunities. There is simply no way to even things out in a capitalist society.

[short rivet]

Inequality is normal

[thorny stone]

Says who?

[forest vale]

Inequality is healthy. You need people to have a reason to work hard.

[short rivet]

Cause democracy does not need nobility

[thorny stone]

It's commonplace, certainly. But it's not something to accept or to stop doing something about.

[forest vale]

If working hard doesn't give you anything, why would you ever do it?

[short rivet]

Gemerational wealth is effectively nobility all over again

[forest vale]

That has nothing to do with nobility! You're robbing people who have worked their whole lives and already paid taxes on everything they've earned.

[short rivet]

I like inequality

[thorny stone]

Why?

[short rivet]

Because not every single person deserves the same treatment

[forest vale]

All that is is society improving over time. That doesn't seem like something that should be discouraged

[thorny stone]

....To each according to their need.

[short rivet]

A guy with no legs deserves to be treated differently then myself

[short rivet]

Bingo thats not equality though

[short rivet]

Its not at all

[thorny stone]

Yes it is. It's equality of outcome, not just of opportunity.

[short rivet]

I only want opportunity not outcome

[forest vale]

"To each according to their own need..." as determined by extremely wealthy party bosses, who definitely decide that their loyal supporters need the most stuff.

[thorny stone]

Equality of opportunity is not equality.

[short rivet]

Exactly

[zenith coyote]

“The only fair thing about life is that life isn’t fair”. Dr Suess or some shit

[thorny stone]

So you mean you want equality of outcome not equality of opportunity?

[short rivet]

Thats a braindead take

[forest vale]

Equality of outcome is one of the most evil concepts known to man.

[thorny stone]

I advise blocking Falcon, they mostly just troll here.

[forest vale]

Hardly. Why would you say that? Should you not work to make your child's life better than your own?

[short rivet]

Once one man gets wealthy in a family the odds of his dynasty ever being poor it near zero

[short rivet]

You do thay through how you raise them

[forest vale]

Arklar, I already told you that I am not a "they." I am a man.

[short rivet]

Not through the money you give them when you die

Look no firther than the Kennedys

Clintons

[forest vale]

Except inheritance taxes don't just take money. They force families to sell homes just to pay the taxes.

[short rivet]

Rockefellers

[short rivet]

No

You tax the capital

[forest vale]

All people who will never pay the inheritance taxes.

[short rivet]

Thats what force is for

If they wont pay willingly

Its a states job to make them

[forest vale]

The only people who pay inheritance taxes are those who aren't wealthy enough to avoid them.

[short rivet]

Hence the flaw of our government

Not the flaw of the system

[forest vale]

The state becomes a tool of the wealthy when the state becomes powerful enough to go after the wealthy. That's the inherent flaw of big government

[short rivet]

We are a corporatacracy now

[short rivet]

Thats a very unfounded and baseless claim

[brittle quiver]

Thanks

[forest vale]

Why? It's simple enough to explain. Please tell me where the logic is wrong.

A small government poses no threat to wealthy business, so there's less reason to influence it. When the government grows, now the decisions of errant politicians could potentially cost you your entire business, maybe billions of dollars. So you're forced to start investing in politics in order to make sure that doesn't happen. Now your own people are getting elected, and you're helping write the rules in order to protect yourself.

The idea that government could ever contain the wealthy ignores how much harder those people will work to influence the government if you start messing with them.

[short rivet]

Because in a government that has populat support a dictatoship by the wealthy is couped

[brittle quiver]

late stage capitalism

not even late stage

[forest vale]

I don't know what you mean by this.

[brittle quiver]

east india company was private and it was evil af

[forest vale]

Google literally uses its platforms to directly and strongly influence public opinion. Apple only allows certain things in their app store. Facebook controls what ideas are shown to others. Amazon controls advertising and messaging. You can't see anything related to Pfizer unless it talks about them in glowing terms. Do you think the public is against these big companies when the same companies work so hard to influence public opinion?

So when they go to influence the government, it's not really common for the general population to complain.

[brittle quiver]

literally proving my point, corporations are evil

cap allows these corporations to grow

[forest vale]

That's not proving your point unless you think that influencing people is inherently evil.

And you're also ignoring the choices people make for themselves that have nothing to do with anyone forcing anything on them.

[brittle quiver]

when corporations grow to the level that they influence state policymaking then yes, it becomes evil

recall that profit is their motivator, not altruism

[forest vale]

Why would influencing policymaking be evil? Are protestors evil when they do the same? What about people writing letters to congress?

[brittle quiver]

protestors are public

corporate lobbying is not

companies don't protest buddy they bribe

that's fucking diabolical

[forest vale]

Profit is not evil. If someone carves a toy boat from wood that he buys and sells it at a profit, is he now evil?

[brittle quiver]

not in a badass way just a bad way

[brittle quiver]

it becomes evil when that's the last tree on earth

which is what will happen under cap

[forest vale]

That's not true. Companies use any and all forms of influence. Many are highly active in protests.

[brittle quiver]

i cannot believe you are a real person right now

i think you're a bot

[forest vale]

That's not a very good profit plan. Plans that make money are actually sustainable.

The reality is that the people planting more trees than anyone else on the planet are loggers.

And the only reason you don't know that is because you haven't gotten a basic education yet.

[brittle quiver]

uh cap discourages sustainability

why plan to make money for the future when i can make money right now?

the squo literally disproves your arg

[thorny stone]

Yes. It limits future planning to a single person's own lifetime.

[forest vale]

No it doesn't. People have more factors influencing them than just profit. The reason people care about the future is because they have families, and that goes for any system of economics. Crazily enough, capitalists still have families, and therefore still have the exact same motivation for creating sustainability as anyone else.

[brittle quiver]

you're wrong

under cap literally the only thing people care about is profit

[forest vale]

I notice you are ignoring the logging example.

[brittle quiver]

drop the source

then i'll consider it

[forest vale]

Lol. So people don't have families if they live under capitalism?

[brittle quiver]

why would they care about other people's families?

i invest in a nuclear bunker for my family

there's literally no reason for me to guruantee in anyone else's well being

[forest vale]

There isn't any system on the planet that cares more about other people's families. Why would they?

[brittle quiver]

uhhhh you're not real right now

[forest vale]

No system has extra motivation to care. Name one.

[brittle quiver]

any altruistic framework seeks to maximize good for everyone

what we need is a mindset shift

[forest vale]

Name one.

They don't actually exist.

[brittle quiver]

there's no one-size fit all

[brittle quiver]

you don't exist bro you can't be real right now

[forest vale]

There's no example either

Name one example of a system to compete with capitalism that suddenly gets everyone to care about other people's families.

That makes no sense.

Feudalism? Monarchy?

[brittle quiver]

i have better things to do then argue with a bot

bye

[forest vale]

I mean such systems of honor existed to some degree in the past, but I don't think you have any kind of example.

Things like inheritance taxes strongly discourage planning for more than one lifetime. The ideal society would be one that encourages you to do what's best for your children or your grandchildren, not one that heavily penalizes such work.

[thorny stone]

Just to return to the core topic again, we've had another Israeli military officer admit today that destroying Hamas is impossible. “To say that we are going to make Hamas disappear is to throw sand in people’s eyes. If we don’t provide an alternative, in the end, we will have Hamas,” This again makes it clear that everyone, including the Israeli army, knows that Netanyahu's claim that the war is to destroy Hamas is false.

And then the UN also published a set of reports which concluded: “The requirement to select means and methods of warfare that avoid or at the very least minimise to every extent civilian harm appears to have been consistently violated in Israel’s bombing campaign.”

Everybody knows Israel is in the wrong right now. The only question is how long the US will allow them to continue like this.

[zenith coyote]

Hagari’s comments, it said, “referred to the destruction of Hamas as an ideology and an idea, and this was said by him very clearly and explicitly,” the military statement added. “Any other claim is taking things out of context.”

“Hamas systematically and unlawfully embeds its military assets within populated areas, and carries out its military activities amongst, behind, and under its own civilians in a deliberate and strategic attempt to maximize civilian harm,” it said. “It also cynically manipulates the statistics surrounding casualties.”

Once again they said might have violated the laws of war, not have

All attacks were aimed at Hamas military infrastructure which were hidden behind civilians to maximize civilian casualties to help the cause of blaming Israel for war crimes

I’m sorry you want Israel to just roll over and allow their people to be put in danger but this is war. People die, especially when the Hamas leaders says they want as many people to die for their cause

https://www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-hamas-mosab-hassan-yousef-if-we-finish-rafah-we-finish-hamas/#:~:text=Mosab Hassan Yousef%2C the disowned,the unfolding situation with Iran.

Son of the leader saying they want Hamas finished

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/06/11/middleeast/sinwar-hamas-israel-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/06/13/middleeast/hamas-interview-israel-gaza-hostages-intl

Hamas can somehow calculate with precision how many people died in a blast minutes after it happened but can’t locate its hostages?

https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/hamas-leaders-worth-11bn-live-luxury-lives-in-qatar/#:~:text=While their people languish in,of the emirate of Qatar.

Billionaire leaders that are just using their peoples death for political gain

Quotes from the Hamas charter of 1988

Goals of the HAMAS:

---

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.' (Article 6)

On the Destruction of Israel:

---

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

---

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

---

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

---

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have

accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,

they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred

revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the

French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the

revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret

organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -

which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies

and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...

and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the

world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge

financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them

having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

'Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet

expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have

finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they

will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out

in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32)

'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the

circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over

the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped

for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'

(Article 32)

.

Please tell me how you think a Hamas run Israel would be more peaceful and better for the region

Why is there no call for Any country besides Israel to give land to the Palestinians when “Palestine” encompassed parts of Iraq and jordan. Why is it just the tiny bit of land the Jews hold

[thorny stone]

The point is that trying to kill Hamas doesn't help achieve peace, and everybody knows it. Yes, the Israeli military propaganda machine rolled into action to try and make it fit within the narrative Netanyahu is providing. But Netanyahu's office's reaction to the statement, trying to dismiss it, shows that everybody knows what the real meaning was. Everybody knows you can't kill Hamas like this.

[thorny stone]

They said it looks like Isreal has violated the laws. That's a considerable step up from saying it's only a possibility, and it's the closest they can get to saying that it definitely happened without having a full trial. Which, of course, Israel won't allow. So in practice, this is the UN saying that Israel is out of line in as strong a set of terms as it can.

[thorny stone]

Forgive me if I just ignore random baseless Israeli propaganda statements like this one.

[thorny stone]

And this one.

[thorny stone]

Israel puts its own people in danger. If you attack people they will attack back, and if you prevent them attacking military targets they will go after other targets. Everybody has always known this about war.

[zenith coyote]

You admitted it yourself that Hamas has to hide behind civilians because “it’s the only choice Israel gave them”

[zenith coyote]

Is this statement justifying Hamas attacking civilians?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/23/israel-spy-hamas-founding-leader-son-gaza-lead-vpx.cnn

[thorny stone]

All he's saying is that civilian casualties detract from the support for Israel. That's not news, everybody knows that already. Everybody also knows that Israel will kill civilians either way, so he's also right that the civilian casualties are unavoidable.

[zenith coyote]

We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Sinwar said in a recent message, according to the Journal, to Hamas officials working to broker an agreement with Qatari and Egyptian officials. The inference here, the Journal noted, was that Sinwar believed further Israeli hostilities and mounting Palestinian casualties played into his organization’s hands. In a separate message, he likened the loss of Palestinian lives in Gaza to the death tolls in other revolutionary conflicts, including Algeria’s war for independence. He said that “these are necessary sacrifices.”

[thorny stone]

My disagreement is with the implication Hamas is deliberately putting civilians in danger. The only way you can interpret it like that is if you take it as a given that Israel needs to kill the military targets in a way that destroys everything close to them. But of course, that's a choice that Israel is making. Israel could choose either not to kill the military targets, or to do it in a way that produces fewer civilian casualties. So in reality, no, it is Israel that is maximising civilian casualties, not Hamas.

[thorny stone]

Yeah, that was debunked months ago. You can hardly trust a tweet from an Israeli embassy as a reliable source on this. They were challenged for evidence and did not provide any.

[thorny stone]

What do you think that quote is actually saying? (Even if we assume the whole thing isn't fabricated out of thin air by the Israeli intelligence.)
To me, it reads like a standard wartime statement from military personnel to each other, indicating that things are proceeding as everybody knew they would.

Which everybody knows. Everybody knows the only way Hamas can win is by an international consensus against Israel that forces the US to stop supporting it. And everybody knows the only way that happens is by Israel going over the top in its actions. This is the logical way this war would progress.

[zenith coyote]

Interesting. Maybe you are right about this I couldn’t find any evidence but I don’t deny they are much more well off than any Palestinian living lavishly in Qatar

[thorny stone]

No. It's explaining why they do it. That's not justifying, it's explaining.

[zenith coyote]

If Hamas knows Israel will attack its military infrastructure, aka terror tunnels. And it purposely places them under civilian heavy populated areas. Then yes the blame is with Hamas because it knows that Israel will attack them and they can use the deaths for their advantage. They don’t care about the lives of their people if they are using schools and hospitals as weapon storage

[zenith coyote]

It’s saying that they know and don’t care that their people are dying as long as Israel gets the blame for it

[thorny stone]

I'm sorry, but that logical inference doesn't follow at all.

Hamas places its military assets in places Israel will find hard to attack. Of course. Literally every military in the history of the world does that.

[zenith coyote]

As you’ve said, Israel made it clear they will destroy Hamas. So Hamas makes it so to destroy them they also have to kill civilians (a war crime to hide under civilian buildings and work in civilian clothes) to destroy their war infrastructure

[thorny stone]

But the bottom line is that Israel does not need to attack them, and it doesn't need to do it in a way that also kills civilians. The choice to kill civilians in these numbers is being made solely by Israel.

[zenith coyote]

Yes Israel should roll over and let Hamas continue to commit war crimes by hiding behind civilians and attacking their people. Totally justified to hide in hospitals because Israel will have to kill people to destroy them

What does humanitarian law say about hospitals?
The Geneva conventions, adopted in the aftermath of the second world war, form the core of international humanitarian law and “are particularly protective of civilian hospitals”, according to Mathilde Philip-Gay, an expert in international humanitarian law at Lyon 3 University in south-east France.

She said: “It is forbidden to turn recognised civilian hospitals into a conflict zone. It is also forbidden to use civilian populations, the sick or the injured as human shields, it is a war crime, as is fighting from inside a hospital.”

[thorny stone]

Even if Hamas did position them there to ensure civilian casualties would occur, that still doesn't mean it's not Israel's responsibility to avoid civilian casualties.

[zenith coyote]

???

They avoid civilian casualties the most they can in one of the most heavily populated areas in the world

[thorny stone]

You don't get to ignore the morality about not killing innocent people simply because it's inconvenient.

[zenith coyote]

You don’t get to cause the death of innocent people and then blame the people you are in war with because it’s convenient

[thorny stone]

Israel is making the conscious and deliberate choice to kill innocent civilians in huge numbers. Regardless of how we got to that point, that's still a morally indefensible act, because they aren't forced to do it.

[zenith coyote]

They are in a war with Hamas

This is war

[thorny stone]

and there are rules, one of which is to not kill people unconnected to the war.

[zenith coyote]

When you hide behind civilians already knowing that your attackers will destroy you, you are knowingly causing the deaths of the civilians

[thorny stone]

which Israel is deliberately breaking.

[zenith coyote]

See above

[thorny stone]

No, I'm sorry, but that's not a defensible moral statement. We can't take it as a given that Israel has to kill people.

There is no moral imperative to kill Hamas.

[zenith coyote]

I’m not absolving Israel of blame. But I am putting blame on Hamas

To save its own people?

It’s a war

[thorny stone]

Killing Hamas doesn't help with that.

[zenith coyote]

The sides are fighting each other

[thorny stone]

Unnecessarily.

[zenith coyote]

Killing nazis didn’t helps ww2 i guess

Too many civilian casualties

[zenith coyote]

This is a whole different discussion

[thorny stone]

It's the same discussion, because it's the moral foundation for all of this.

Hamas creates the possibility for civilian deaths, but Israel chooses to carry it out.

You can't claim that the moral blame for civilian deaths lies only with the people who create the possibility for civilian deaths as collateral damage, unless you can prove that there is a moral need to kill the intended targets. Since there isn't a moral need for that, in any way, you can't absolve Israel of the blame for choosing to cause the civilian deaths. Israel has a choice whether to kill innocent civilians in huge numbers or not, and it is choosing to kill the innocent civilians.

The absolute furthest you can push the argument is to say that both Hamas and Israel are responsible for those civilian deaths. In that case, your argument is whataboutism, saying that Israel is fine to commit war crimes because Hamas is also doing it. Even that's not a morally defensible argument.

In reality, Israel takes far more of the blame, because it is the one that put Hamas and themselves in this position.

All of this could have been avoided if Israel had acted better previously.

[zenith coyote]

What do you recommend Israel does

Right now

After the attacks of Oct 7 and still 100+ hostages

[zenith coyote]

Israel can’t take the blame because of their belief to destroy Hamas

I’m just kidding a reference to our other discussion

Israel would have no reason to attack civilian targets without Hamas hiding behind them. And if they did they could actually be accused of war crimes. The moral obligation is that Hamas has said time and time again they will destroy Israel. Israel has the right and responsibility to defend themselves

[thorny stone]

Imprison Netanyahu, immediately cease all military attacks on Palestinians, immediately stop all settlement building on Palestinian land, apologise, return as much of the land that they stole as they can (according to an agreement to be worked out with the UN and Palestinians to create two viable states), disband the IDF and start again with non-psychopaths as leaders....I mean, there's a big list of things I would like Israel to do.

Any of those they should do immediately.

But being realistic, step one is to immediately stop all military action against Palestinians.

[zenith coyote]

I agree with imprisoning bibi only if Hamas does the same with its leaders, if Hamas stops attacking Israel, if Hamas returns the hostages, if Hamas disbands it’s military and admits to war crimes of causing death to civilians. And restart and create a 2 state solution

[thorny stone]

Hamas only says that in respons to Israel's stated desire to wipe out all Palestinians.

[zenith coyote]

Hamas can end this war just as quick as Israel can