#Greed is an expression of fear.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

prime wave
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So this post is not particularly meant as a forum post, it just felt like the most appropriate place to respond to Pete's elaboration on the relationship between fear and greed.

As mentioned before, I have similar thoughts about this relationship and how I interpreted Pete's conceptualization is a bit different.

If I'm wrong about your explanation, Pete, feel free to correct me 🙏

(Core of the post, the rest is context and further thoughts)

How it seems to me, is that Pete says that at first, fear of loss leads to greed and hoarding (with which I agree). But after a certain point, even when there's plenty to go around, people can still be greedy without fear of loss. Like it becomes it's own thing, evolutionarily driven, even when people know they don't need more.

My view is that even modern greed, when basic needs of life are factually fulfilled, are still rooted in explicit fear. As in, greed is just an expression of existing fear and cannot live without it.

I use this example all the time, there are small family businesses that don't need competition to keep prices low. They don't need to fear a monopolistic takeover, so they can stay small scale. Where I live, that's mostly the case with pubs.

But if a company decides to compete, then increasing profits by a smaller percentage is the same as a loss, compared to the competition. So with competition, the Nash equilibrium is such that everyone has to keep increasing their profits exponentially. Because a loss leads to fewer investment options, which leads to more losses.

Even the richest of the rich feel this pressure. Although they could purchase everything they need for themselves and their whole family for many generations, they feel like they can't deviate from the strategy, and that's where we get greed.

Of course, this is all fake scarcity. Humanity has plenty for all to survive and live a worthy long life. What I want for the world, is to first take steps to significantly reduce the value of competition, and increase the value of just existing. I think that baseline human nature is to cooperate, but to resort to egotism and greed in times of scarcity (even the fake ones).

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Greed is an expression of fear.

quick solstice
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Would you care to discuss this further? I know you said you did not intend for this to be a forum question, but I think it is an interesting topic.

prime wave
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I'm not planning on a lot of discussion, but of course the post is open for anyone to share their thoughts ^^

junior willow
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I don´t know if I would say all greed is motivated by fear.

the argument makes a lot of sense but it seems to me, to better relate to your survival instincts.

Your business is your means to provide for your existence, so when the business is threatened you attempt to make as large of a resource storage as possible, because you know on a subconscious level that more resources, makes you harder to "kill".

But I don´t believe that is the only trigger you could have for greed. Let us say you have a family business that easily sustains you and your loved ones, and this business is unlikely to ever fail due to let us say a patent.

You receive a lot of praise for this, but you feel that you can do more, so you expand the business in order to receive more praise from more people. In this case you would have become greedy not out of fear of loss (unless you count FOMO), but more out of a sense of vanity and the desire to have your pride stoked.

there is also a case to be made for entitled relatives, let us say your business does really well and you become one of the top 0.001%, you start giving to your family according to what you feel they deserve. It would not be the first time if one of those family members up and decide "you know what I don´t think you are doing enough for me gimme more!".

To me that is the purest expression of greed, and assuming that you are not dealing with destitute family members, but more on the line of trust fund babies, I don´t believe you can use fear as a justification for this.

prime wave
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Yeah I would say that is vanity, not greed

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And FOMO definitely counts as fear, because it has its root in fear of social isolation, which was one of the deadliest situations a prehistoric human could find themself in.

vital sable
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You could point to greed being a product of evolution, but you could also point to guilt over being greedy as also a product of evolution

prime wave
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And if we're talking about trust fund babies, they have no experience of living with less, so living with less is scary.

vital sable
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Basically the conflict between having a reproductive edge for your offspring in particular by hoarding resources balanced out by the increased overall reproductive edge of your cohort/society by sharing resources

prime wave
copper tusk
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I don't care Tanyao, I'm helping to turn this into a forum post. That is my greed based on the fear of missing out.

vital sable
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Honestly I'm not sure how much water the whole "humanity has plenty for all the survive and live a worthy long life" has

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8 billion humans consuming as much as a US citizen doesn't seem sustainable

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Could be wrong, Ive heard food is mostly a resource distribution problem, but there's so many other facets of life that I'm not too sure here

prime wave
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Yeah if we were to fix meat consumption, water would be WAY less of an issue

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But the people fear their meat will be forcefully taken away

copper tusk
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So yea, I guess my input is that I'm wondering how fear of loss would be defined in this context. To me, I would define it as the fear of negative change when it comes to what one has. In the context of this conversation, this would simply be seen as a reduction of material possessions.

By using this basis, I would say that in both cases, the individual in question has a feeling of fear of loss. While this fear can be seen as more irrational in the latter example, and rightfully so, this fear would still be present.

The only justification I could see for this fear is the fact that we have a finite amount of resources on Earth. However even then, I would say that by using these resources in an efficient manner, this would meet the needs of everyone.

Now, even with the needs of each person met, they'll also have wants that they feel has to be addressed. I think this is where greed comes in. It's the moment where someone sees their wants as an absolute need and will place doing that above addressing the needs of others. I think this is what stunts collaboration among others. Since this fear is so common, there would be a natural conflict of interest that arises.

prime wave
copper tusk
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I read something that I didn't read. PeteDab