Is Circumcision Humane and-or Morale?

[fickle roost]

I've been thinking about the various religions and cultures that snip snip our manhood. Im curious as to the origins of the practice, and whether it has any merit in today's society.

It seems antiquated, and while it can be argued that it's a health risk to retain and not get snipped, wouldn't the same argument possibly be made about improper procedures? Unclean Tools? Perverse Practictioners of the craft?

I would like your thoughts ladies and gentlemen, and lets keep it civil, we all have PREFERENCES AND OPINIONS, nothing is fact unless it's fact. Separate fact and feelings. ❤️

[surreal panther]

Isn't circumsicion healthy? Like lower chance of penis infection. Furthermore, no offence to the ladies but what would they add?

From wiki;

Circumcision is associated with reduced rates of sexually transmitted infections and urinary tract infections.[3][12][13][14] This includes decreasing the incidence of cancer-causing forms of human papillomavirus (HPV) and significantly reducing HIV transmission among heterosexual men within high risk populations. The World Health Organization (WHO) and UNAIDS recommend circumcision as part of a comprehensive HIV transmission program in areas with high endemic rates of HIV.

[surreal panther]

Also they don't remove the testicles, so there is no manhood removed. If someone wanted to get circumcised later they would have to go through a more dangerous procedure.

I don't think this is much if a discussion, it really isn't, it's obvious what the right answer is let alone there actually being one

[dry plover]

In my view, circumcision is the forced mutilation of a baby, no way to convince me otherwise. If you perform circumcision for health reasons, it is okay. If you do it for religious practises etc, i think it is not okay. If you feel like it is an important part of your religion, wait for the guy to become 16 or 18 or whatever age you deem them worthy of having an own opinion and let them decide instead of decide for them

''he use of circumcision for medical or health reasons is an issue that continues to be debated. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision (prevention of urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and transmission of some sexually transmitted infections, including HIV) outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision.

The procedure may be recommended in older boys and men to treat phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) or to treat an infection of the penis.

Parents should talk with their doctor about the benefits and risks of the procedure before deciding whether to circumcise a male child. Other factors, such as your culture, religion, and personal preference, will also be involved in your decision.''

in other words, it can have health benefits, but they are not so clear and most of the time it is not performed for medical reasons

In the US specifically. In my country circumcision is not that common, even within religious groups.

[fickle roost]

Their opinion? Many women are doctors and nurses?… bruh.

Also as I stated, whilst there are studies that indicate it’s healthy to get clipped, there are also complications, medical issues, and longterm-injuries that arise uncommonly to this day.

[fickle roost]

Thats where I was leaning, the baby has no choice, so if it’s for medical reasons I could see it being reasonable, but old religious practice seems suspect as hell.

[fickle roost]

Thats what I thought too

[dry plover]

yeah i am wondering what the real reason is that people mutilate their newborns with circumcision

like ''for religious reasons'' is still a bit ambiguous

what in religion tells you to circumcise your baby boys

[fickle roost]

THATS WHAT IM SAYING, why would god want that. And if it WAS for medical reasons through god, why would god not say it's for medical reasons lmao

[dapper lagoon]

Circumcision is bullshit

[stiff ore]

The Torah mentions it as a standard practice

Thats the only place you’ll find it religiously mentioned

[fickle roost]

See thats what Im sayin, I was snipped as a baby, but I didnt have a choice.

Looking at the Un-snipped side, yalls looks weird af, and the conventional penis is depicted as circumsized, Im wondering if Societial pressure to view the penis AS snipped as normal, is what put us where we are today.

[fickle roost]

does it?

hmm

[stiff ore]

Yeah

[fickle roost]

for what purpose

what is the express purpose in the Torah?

[stiff ore]

Its literally a Jewish practice

[fickle roost]

what is the INTENDED outcome?

lol

[stiff ore]

I believe its either to mark you as a hebrew or for cleanliness or something

I think its messed up though

[dry plover]

'' yalls looks weird af,'' wow thanks bro @fickle roost

[fickle roost]

IM JUST SAYING FROM THIS SIDE OF THE GRASS HOMIE

my bad g

[stiff ore]

Very strange christians do it as well despite it not being a christian thing

[fickle roost]

yeah thats what I mean, I was raised CATHOLIC

and Im snipped

[dry plover]

hahah no worries i was joking

[fickle roost]

https://tenor.com/view/vinesauce-meat-worm-earthworm-squish-gif-21201766

Unsnipped people be like

😂

[dry plover]

but the real answer is that this is dependent on your culture. It is this way in the US. In many places around the world being uncircumcised is normal

[fickle roost]

Im Canadian

https://tenor.com/view/pog-gif-20434312

But your point stands lol

[fickle roost]

https://tenor.com/view/lawler-creep-hide-peek-hole-gif-17322272

Uncircumsized people be like

[surreal panther]

Do these uncommon complications prevail (in incidence rate) more than infections without circumcision?

[surreal panther]

No offense to the unsnipped but a circumcised membre looks better. Aesthetically, both are still ugly.

[fickle roost]

Im googling it, and i regret so much

the tool, the practice, the procedure, I WANNA DIE

Massachusetts General Hospital, 7.4% of all visits to a pediatric urologist were for circumcision complications

Thats what ive found so far

In a series of 5,521 circumcisions comparing the Plastibell technique to the Gomco clamp, Gee and Ansell reported only 23 (0.4%) infections

[fickle roost]

I agree, snipped looks cleaner and more "refined"

unsnipped looks like Tremor-worms lol

[surreal panther]

Lmao

[fickle roost]

but ngl, just researching that, and seeing the images they casually sprinkle in there

I wanna fuckin die

I cant believe we just let priests do that shit

i wonder if we'll evolve to eventually not have foreskins, like some sort of vestigial part of us like our shrinking pinky toes

[surreal panther]

I feel like this debate is more, why circumcise cuz of religion? Therefore being a religious debate rather than medical

[fickle roost]

i started the debate as, is it moral.

if something is MEDICALLY safer, is it moral. If its religiously justified, does that make it moral?

[surreal panther]

On the basis of morality, you can't do much about babies.

Like if you say circumcision can wait, you can't really wait to change a babie's name.

Even if you can make a legal name change many don't

[fickle roost]

I wonder if God exists, and he's looking down on us like, "stop cutting baby dicks off, I didnt say to do that"

"you misinterpreted my message, you got it wrong."

and thats the issue I think too, how much rights does a baby have over an adult, or even a child that can speak.

[surreal panther]

I don't care if god really exists, the religion I follow has given me a good baseline for life.

[fickle roost]

no no, i just mean in the hypothetical sense, the Abramahic god looking down on humanity like, "Bruh, stop snippin'!"

I wonder if it was a major health issue back then, but no one took it seriously, so they proclaimed that god said to snip snip.

[surreal panther]

I don't think Abrhamic God cares that much, created a balance and system.

Good and Evil.

If some hairless monkeys start mutilating babies he wouldn't bat an eye.

[fickle roost]

Abrahamic god is also the least likely to exist among the possible choices IMO, but I digress lol Lot of contradictions

[surreal panther]

My current theological belief is that sure God exists.

But what actually exists is the will of the people through "God". People have done things in the name of others for most of history.

So the concept of a General winning a battle is his will imposed on the soldiers.

God doing anything is the people's will imposed on the world.

[fickle roost]

Thats fair, to me if God exists, its one of those circumstances where because it CREATED everything, it is IN everything, and therefore cant DO anything. Can't answer prayers, can't help with anything because it IS a part of everything.
The Divided God.

The most useless of Gods

Good for the initial jumpstart of the Universe then nada.

[surreal panther]

Not what I was going for but that makes sense.

What I was going for is that everyone does something in the name of "x". But " x" doesn't actually exist.

But because people think "x" exists, you can attribute those peoples actions in the name of "x" to the abstract thought of "x" itself.

[fickle roost]

No I saw what you were going for, I was adding by explaining my opinion on what I think God is, if the fuckin thing even exists lol

Despotically Agnostic

[surreal panther]

That's a quote

[fickle roost]

what is lol

ahh

[surreal panther]

Despotically Agnosix

[fickle roost]

thats my Religion lol

I am the maker of my own religion, but I dont believe in anything strongly enough to affirm my faith around said thing

The closest thing is someone who's scientific and humanity-progressing achievements like Elon Musk and he been droppin alot of L's not alotta W's lately

[surreal panther]

Honestly one thing I hate about religious 'discussion' is people like the guy who started the thread on proof of god

Truth powers

[fickle roost]

I dont believe anything firmly enough to plant my feet in the sand, I dont get why people do that.

[surreal panther]

The whole mars thing is a fever dream to make a pr stunt.

[surreal panther]

There are very few things I place my feet in

Your mother being chief among them 💀

[fickle roost]

Proof of God isnt something you can inherently do, short of your god slapping the Earth with some Divine magical relic or saving someone ina truly otherwise IMPOSSIBLE situation, Proof of God will never happen

[surreal panther]

I think that it doesn't even matter. With time this undisputed fact will fade away. God will probably not try.

[fickle roost]

Oh I know, but it's still our next step as humans, we'd colonize Mars, Turn the Moon into an Orbiting Defense Station/Telescope, then continue on to other planets

[surreal panther]

What's smarter is to industrialize the moon, then colonize mars

Not the other way around

[fickle roost]

true but also not as flashy

[surreal panther]

Then we break apart mercury and dyson swarm

[fickle roost]

also I have some fringe theories on why we havent gone back to the moon in such a long time

[surreal panther]

Please, I would love to hear them.

Otherwise to end the mars tangent.

Of I could have my way a very significant amount of money and science would go towards space. Mining and setting up better infrastructure. Fuck colonization. We got robots.

From there we can make space travel (I shoudk say freighring because fuck people) which will then allow us to start a Dyson Swarm.

Do that then become t1 civilization.

[fickle roost]

but to ultimately grow and prevent the threat of extinction you need to spread bodies, not robots. Robots can pave the way for us, but we still need to move people off Earth, ideally far enough out and away that no single "power" could wipe us out, be it Star-implosion, Radiation storm, Supernova, Black Hole, etc.

[fickle roost]

regarding the moon thing, I think thats a thing better DM'd lol

[surreal panther]

Oh so it's that type if fringe 💀

[fickle roost]

DM's most of it

[dry plover]

depends on what you are used to. To me snipped looks weird af

[dry plover]

why would that be the case. Most people on earth dont get circumcision

[fickle roost]

its not a needed part of the body, same as pinky toe, or spleen (i think thats the useless one), or tail bone

remnants of the past

[dry plover]

pinky toe actually helps us balance

without it you would constantly have trouble microadjusting your balance

[fickle roost]

I already do lol

[dry plover]

then stop drinking

[fickle roost]

i dont drink

[dry plover]

xd

it was a joke

[fickle roost]

just weed good sir/maam

i know lol

[dry plover]

but no foreskin is not useless at all

[fickle roost]

i think i have ear issues anyways, sometimes when I pressure pop my ears, my vision tunnel visions

[dry plover]

it helps to protect the entrance of the penishead from outside danger

just like every piece of skin on your body

[fickle roost]

thats what pants are for

lol

[dry plover]

granted it is less important now we wear pants

[fickle roost]

ye

we dont need a dick sheath

[dry plover]

but i dont think its comepletely useless

[fickle roost]

well dont some cultures make it into stuff?

or is that the placenta? both?

could be useful that way still lmao

[surreal panther]

Womp womp

[midnight sierra]

Im curcumcised and im glad I am, It looks so much better imo. Yeah you lose some feeling but you gain alot of the looks factor. So I would say its human and moral.

[fickle roost]

same

idk about moral

human yes

humane? idk

[midnight sierra]

Idk I feel like its not a bad thing to do to your kid, obviously I can understand the reasoning behind the thought process of it being inhumane or immoral, but speaking for myself atleast I dont think it is.

[oak moth]

humane for sure as it causes no harm to the child no different than getting them an ear piercing secondly as someone circumcized I am glad I think it looks gross and most women prefer cicrcumcized anyways

[fickle roost]

Lookup the procedure, its ALOT more than that lol

Way bloodier too lol

Youll be scarred

Warnin ya

[oak moth]

I've seen it

I don't care

I've seen a lot worse

If you think that's bad you've never seen childbirth

[stiff ore]

There are studies that show it does cause pain to the child

[fickle roost]

Men have latent subconscious trauma all our lives because of it

[dry plover]

I don't feel like esthetics are a good reason to undergo a medical procedure. And even if it was, shouldn't the boy in question decide how he looks instead of his parents?

Also, esthetics is a cultural thing. Sure in North America it looks normal, outside of it it is mostly seen as weird to be snipped

[stiff ore]

Thats what I’ve heard

[surreal panther]

Exactly, but dicks still ugly tho.

[surreal panther]

Well obviously I've experienced pain as a newborn baby, but do I remember any of it? No. Therefore it didn't happen.

By the way we don't know how anesthesia works, we might just feel all the pain then forget it ever happens.

[stiff ore]

Therefore it didn’t happen because I didn’t remember it isn’t going to hold up well in court my man

[surreal panther]

What?

[stiff ore]

Thats a completely ludicrous claim

Forgetting something doesn’t nullify it

[surreal panther]

Ok, let me rephrase it

A child's brain is not functional enough for them to have long term memory. Sure the subconscious does the learning and waking but the conscious may not even exist.

Sure they show the discomfort of pain, but they may never actually feel it because the subconscious was reacting, not the conscious. next day they will not have any memory anyways.

[stiff ore]

But you are still inflicting pain upon a child. And some studies have made the claim that that pain can have lasting effects upon said child.

[surreal panther]

No offense, but some studies can be wrong and still, why aren't you talking about ear piercings? Fucking birth for that matter.

[stiff ore]

I don’t think you should pierce a child’s ear either, let them have the choice. But thats not the topic of discussion. I’m not advocating avoiding all pain, I’m advocating not inflicting it on someone that can’t consent to it

Also how would I be in any way offended by that statement? Its not a hot take, and I’m not personally invested in the studies. Its just a potential avenue of support for my argument

[oak moth]

Again circumcision is completely fine

I have no trauma regarding it either

So that study is pretty ludicrous if it claims newborns gain truama from it

On a more realistic note regardless of anything it is currently legal and I don't plan on doing anything about it

I had tubes pushed into my ear canals to prevent me from having ear infections and had surgery to remove them as well

Still no trauma

So did my cousin

It's not different it's a quality of live improvement for the person why does it matter

It reduces risk of issues and honestly doesn't have any tangible effect on them

[cinder wigeon]

leave the hood alone

[fickle roost]

https://tenor.com/view/ghetto-staysinthehood-black-man-homie-gif-25183098

[dapper zenith]

Holy shit thats a lot of penis discussion. Exactly what this server needs 🤣

I guess Ill weigh in... it should be something you decide for yourself when you are of age... snipping babies for the fuck of it is stupid. If it needs to be done for medical reasons or whatever then that makes sense.. but let em make their choice as adults lol

I am surprised how controversial this thread must have been to get this many msgs, i do not have time to catch up lol

[dapper lagoon]

Agreed kilt guy

[fickle roost]

I get baked and think of weird stuff, figured at least someone’s got an opinion about it, turns out alot do lmao.

[dapper zenith]

Lmao fair enough. Someone mentioned hygiene issues and infection and stuff.... but I guess wash your dingle is the appropriate response to that 🤣

[dapper lagoon]

I think this isnt relevant only to schlongs

[surreal panther]

I wash my dongle on the daily

[dapper lagoon]

Shower, people!

[dapper zenith]

#donglewashbrigade

[dapper lagoon]

Indeed!

[surreal panther]

Division!

[dapper lagoon]

Army!

[fickle roost]

It probably mattered about getting snipped alot more when people bathed once a year

You were a king if you could bathe once a week lol

[dapper zenith]

lmao

[fickle roost]

Also, been needing to say this, because your OCD hurts my OCD, you dont need to slider blitz on EVERY roll to reduce troop loss lol

https://tenor.com/view/matteo-berrettini-tennis-italia-say-what-oh-no-you-didnt-gif-21926968

[dapper lagoon]

Its more about the culture. Thats why jews were hunted so much after the black plague, because of religious practices they washed their hands so their rates of infection were much lower, people noticed and accused them of being wizards and shit

[fickle roost]

If you lose the match by a 5–10 troops every match, your method makes sense, otherwise nah son lol

[fickle roost]

Lmao oof

Too clean

[dapper zenith]

Lmao sorry

[fickle roost]

So you’re a witch

[surreal panther]

What's slider blitz?

[dapper lagoon]

Yee

[fickle roost]

All good, love your content, I just noticed it takes up like 60% of your turns lol

Just slam them Kylt

I believe in you

[surreal panther]

Also like, controlling da moola.

[dapper zenith]

lmao if im tryin to make content for yt then im taking my turns slower to talk through a bit for the crowd

[fickle roost]

Even Back in the day, not really true, once the templars came into power they pretty much ranmoney

[dapper lagoon]

Thats just a conspiracy theory. Jews were restricted to being merchants because christians were dumb so people accused them of being rich lmao

[surreal panther]

They didn't control all of it, the templars reallty were in control.

But the people thought it was the news.

[dapper lagoon]

The news!

[fickle roost]

Me and a few buddies talked about your habits last night while playing and we all said your slider-blitz’s were a result of your OCD and its funny af to watch yet annoying when we just wanna see you kick some ASS. Lol

[dapper lagoon]

They control the world

[fickle roost]

Thats why I just said? Lol

[surreal panther]

Je n'ai comprends pas

[dapper lagoon]

Oui, meme pour moi

[dry plover]

Because Christians saw making money on interest as a sin, jews didn't so they were the only ones able to do some jobs like banking

[fickle roost]

https://tenor.com/view/youre-a-foreigner-chozen-toguchi-cobra-kai-not-from-here-outsider-gif-19868220

[surreal panther]

I am. French is like my 5th language

[fickle roost]

Too many

[dapper lagoon]

Bruh how

[fickle roost]

Unless ur ass is traveling worldwide every day OR a professional translator

That shit aint needed brother lol

[surreal panther]

Jealous

[fickle roost]

Shoulda picked like 2 languages and 4 instruments

[dry plover]

Nah speaking 3+ languages is pretty normal if you're European

[fickle roost]

Im pragmatic

[fickle roost]

Yeah well Europeans are also weirdo’s pretty through and through lol

Canadians are the only normal people

And we’re even crazy

[dry plover]

KekW

[surreal panther]

Born in a place, spoke that language, and my father speaks it too. My mother speaks another language.

The first school/s I went to spoke a third language.

And when I moved again I learnt English then came to Canada where I'm learning French.

[dry plover]

Doesnt everyone think that they are the normal one

[surreal panther]

😎

[dapper lagoon]

Nice. In a world where im not a lazy bum I would speak 2 more languages than I currently do, 4 in total

[surreal panther]

That's two many

[dapper lagoon]

No, I speak 2

I would speak 4

[surreal panther]

I don't need German in my daily life, and the two mother tongues are sparsely used.

[surreal panther]

It's a pun 😔

[dapper lagoon]

Ah

English is not my mother tongue

Yay

[dry plover]

I mean, the whole world is learning English because GB and NA people are lazy and expect others to cater for them /s

[dapper lagoon]

200 years ago the lingua france was french

It changes depending on the dominant culture

[dry plover]

I think we should all speak chinese

or at least write

[dapper lagoon]

No thanks

How did we get from circumcision to talking about chinese

Lmao

[dry plover]

hahaha

[surreal panther]

No thanks

[dry plover]

why yall biased against the chinese language

[surreal panther]

Easnt it French/latin for a millennia?

[surreal panther]

I'm biased against one of the hardest languages to learn in the world, and the state.

[dapper lagoon]

Depends on what area you're talking about. French and English are the only lingua francas to actually have a global reach.

[surreal panther]

Sorry I meant europe

[dapper lagoon]

Yeah it was latin for a while, then german, for a little while arabic then french

[dry plover]

Nah there are over 1.3 billion people that are native chinese speakers and a whole lot more that are not native. So it can't be one of the hardest to learn

[dapper lagoon]

Thats not really how that works. Chinese students learn their language's characters from first grade to high school and even after they have difficulty

The spoken language is easiest by far but still very though for westerners

[dry plover]

i agree for westeners its harder to learn than most languages

But the world is more than just the west

for them, learning english is also really hard

[dapper lagoon]

We also havent addressed the elephant in the room, China has many more languages than just mandarin

There are a BUNCH

[surreal panther]

Africa is going to have the most of the worlds population this century, so will there even be a lingua franca?

[dry plover]

yeah but they use the same writing system

If i speak cantonese and you speak chinese, we will write with the same characters even though we cant speak

[dapper lagoon]

French probably. Most spoken language in africa is french.

[surreal panther]

It seems Swahili is almost double French rn, but they're the top two

[dapper lagoon]

Is it? Well anyways French is dominant in the areas bound to grow the most in population

Ive read that in a bunch of sources

[surreal panther]

Anyways, uh, I don't like talking about the genital mutilation of infants so I will cease discussion on this matter

[dapper lagoon]

Same!

Damn we have so much in common

[surreal panther]

Women never take interest in you?

[dapper lagoon]

Nope, and neither do I!

Hmm

Why the skull emoji?

[surreal panther]

Oh because I assumed you like women

[dapper lagoon]

Well

It's complicated

[surreal panther]

As is life

[dapper lagoon]

Yes

[fickle roost]

Hey stfu

Its working lol

Few more generations and English will be the “World Language”

Just as God, Dungeons and Dragons, Star Trek, and Star Wars intended.

[dry plover]

ohhh /s is used to indicate sarcasm 😉

[fickle roost]

Just use italics like everyone else on discord lol

[dry plover]

not everyone on discord uses italics to indicate sarcasm tho

[fickle roost]

bombing the whitehouse would be such a good idea right about now. see you know its a joke because its in Italics

[fickle roost]

Every discord ive been either uses italics or TyPeS lIkE tHiS

Like popular discords like Gates of Autism lol

Memecord

[nimble juniper]

I was circumcised as an infant in the Jewish tradition.

Were I to have a male son I would 100% not continue this tradition.

The religious basis of the tradition stems from the idea that the males of the chosen people of God form their covenenant with the almighty by sacrificing this piece of themselves.

The origins of the tradition may indeed have very much to do with decreased risk of disease due to the lack of sanitary technology at the time. For similar reasons pork and shellfish are not kosher since back then there weren't the technical solutions to deal with food borne parasites like we have today.

But we happen to have much better sanitary technology today so tldr wash yo dick

Circumcision is elective surgery on an infant. And notwithstanding the risks of that we are also removing a piece of one of our body's most sensitive parts nerve endings and all.

There is likely a lot of evidence to suggest that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure in men.

Final point whether a cut penis is more attractive is cultural. And that's arbitrary.

[dapper lagoon]

Totally agree peteman

[silver pike]

Evangelical Christians are free to choose whether to cut or not to cut their male offspring. If we cut because the Bible or a leader says to do so, both the leader and the followers are wrong. As many of you probably know, there are many "Christians" out there doing many wrong things, and I will stop expanding beyond the topic here. I make this point to place along side Pete's explanation of Judaism's practice of circumcision. I concur with everything Pete says except I am skeptical of the science that may be skewed to circumcisions benefit/harm. Without getting any deeper, I refer you to Woody Allen's "Sleeper" where the doctors have found that smoking is healthy and sex requires no sexual organs.

[surreal panther]

smoking healthy? my guy what are you smoking?

[dry plover]

he is talking about studies where scientists were paid by the tobacco industry and used unscientific methods to jump to false conclusions about the health risks of smoking

so the tobacco industry could say: ''but science says smoking is not bad''

even though there were A LOT of independent studies that argued the opposite

[silver pike]

It's a metaphor for the way society's change. Trust the science. In God we Trust.

[dry plover]

trust the science yeah, not trust the scientists

the studies you are referring to were used in my classes as an example of how to spot bad science

anyone can read those papers and see that it is bullshit what they are claiming

[silver pike]

I was actually speaking about a movie you may not have seen. It's very funny. The doctors claiming smoking was good for you were fictional. But I have seen the documentary about doctors claiming smoking was not bad for people made in the mid 20th century. The truth is smoking is not terminal for everyone, but it does damage in various degrees to everyone. I see old folks smoking, some with oxygen tanks.

[silver pike]

Yes, and don't trust government scientists. I give you Artemis as Exhibit #1. I pray they get this figured out.

[surreal panther]

In my mind I trust

[midnight sierra]

I guess we can agree to disagree on this lol.

[halcyon timber]

I'd say follow cultural customs. The baby is too young to know the difference. But once he's a man, you don't want the women being like wtf is wrong down there?!?

This was a convo my wife and I had before the birth of our son. So it was certainly an interesting discussion but we 100% agreed on the decision

[surreal panther]

i ment it really as any look wierd, regardless pf snip or not

[limber grove]

about 2/3 of the planet is not circumcised.. The conventional penis is in fact NOT circumcised. It is usually depicted erect, which would look the same either way

[fickle roost]

https://tenor.com/view/vinesauce-meat-worm-earthworm-squish-gif-21201766

But also this

[limber grove]

I’m crying 😂

[dry plover]

That gif is how a snipped unit looks like right?

[royal ridge]

[About the more] "controversial methods of circumcision, such as the Metzitzah B’Peh practiced by the ultra- Orthodox Jewish community. The lawfulness of this custom whereby the mohel sucks the blood from the cir- cumcision wound on the child’s penis was discussed in court in New York in 2012. Ultimately, this custom was deemed lawful provided that the parents gave their informed consent. According to the New York State Department of Health, ‘within eleven years, eleven male babies [. . .] were infected with the herpes simplex virus, two of whom died’ as a result of this practice. For this reason, even the Israel Ambulatory Pediatric Association (IAPA) disapproves of this method." cited from Aurenque/Wiesing 2013, DOI:10.1111/bioe.12077

Has anyone of those who wrote above encountered this method?

Well, in regard to male genitale mutilation, this seems the worst of the "circumcision" category to me.🧐 🤪

[dapper zenith]

I hope everyone in here can agree that sucking baby dicks is wrong

[fickle roost]

https://tenor.com/view/dont-do-that-mr-mackey-south-park-s12e3-major-boobage-gif-21153665

[dapper lagoon]

Happened to me!

Im sure it was awesome

[nimble juniper]

oy vey

[strong apex]

This could be corelative because religious families are often the ones getting circumcisions and religious families also commonly discourage and prevent sex.

[dry plover]

Do you think religious people have significantly less sexual activity?

I dont know the facts, but I don't think that is true

[royal ridge]

not sexual activity, but promiscuous out-side monogamous relationship sexual activity 😉

[royal ridge]

I hope you made it through healthy! Do you know if this method is still practiced frequently? Or is Metzitzah B'Peh (can't imagine how to pronounce that correctly, bad enough I can imagine the act itself😵‍💫) a rather obscure and rare form?

[strong apex]

I don't really know how to go about defining how much less sex religious people have because how would we even measure that to begin with. First I would ask what is considered significant because I think even a 15% reduction in sexual activity across a population would be significant but some people would say it has to be >50%. But any number we would use is not something that is actually measured and back by data.
If we remove the significance factor from the question, I do think religious people have less sex yes. If your peers all think that casual sex is bad, you are more likely to think that. It's part of being human to think what others think. You can consciously decide to explore other thoughts and decide to engage in sexual activity even if everyone around you says it's bad, but you are more likely to be influenced by their thoughts.

[unborn brook]

Circumcision is a choice at birth and no long is tied to religion. I am snipped and so are my two little boys. I will say that it is barbaric when done. I held my boys hands when they had theirs done when they were just basically born. It is barbaric but also a personal choice of the parents overall. I don’t honk one way is right or wrong; just different.

[dry plover]

Why do you think you should make that decision as a parent instead of waiting till your kids are older so they can decide for themselves?

[nimble juniper]

I wish I was consulted

Because I would have declined

[royal ridge]

More than ten years ago, I did read an interview with a prostitute about her experiences with circumcised men of different cuts and ages. It was far away from being citeable in academia, but up till now it was my most informed view from a first hand professional upon that topic. She was convinced that past fifty, the circumcised men had to work harder to climax. Because of a then more leathery tip. True? I don’t know! Empiricists to the rescue!

[halcyon timber]

Thankfully I still have over a decande before I can investigate that hypothesis myself. Will report back in 20+ years

[unborn brook]

I am not very active on discord clearly haha. It is more clean, women generally like it more and it avoids any exclusion that could occur. I am for kids being themselves but overall I think that it generally accepted excluding some religions. As well, it is saver for the female as the bacteria that is there for uncircumcised men can crate yeast infections, etc.

As a guy we all know the kid or kids that didn’t have it done and the girls avoided them like the plague. World is tough enough as is on people’s mental strength and if I can add a bit of defense to my sons I will

[dapper zenith]

Instead of teaching them how to cope in a tough world you cut their peeders bro

🤣

[fast prism]

"Women generally like it more" is just outright untrue. "Saver [sic] for the female" isn't true either, if one doesn't want to give someone a yeast infection then one should bathe regularly. It has nothing to do with being circumcised or not.
And also, I agree with Kylted; you don't snip junk to deal with a mental strength issue. It may have the opposite effect in a lot of cases.

[unborn brook]

Go big or go home am I right? Haha

@fast prism I am afraid research is on my side on this one. A quick google search agrees with me and agree to the cleaner situation as well. Overall, I think it is a extremely personal choice. The practice dates back 220k years it is expected as well, which I find interesting

[royal ridge]

Despite the WHO pushing the hygienist argument for Africa, the respective research is extremely dubious and contested in many regards - more friction during heterosexual intercourse causing more micro traumata for example. So bathing regularly being totally adequate for non-inhabitants of pre-modern eras. Try Google Scholar to get better evidence and we might have a collective read of the more recent debate

[unborn brook]

It is contested I agree but regardless, I’d be willing to bet the house that if I walked over to 100 women over 50% would like to be with a circumcised man over one that wasn’t. Where I agree that your hygiene is far better now, it still stands it is cleaner circumcised.

[royal ridge]

I not even once met or heard of someone who regarded this as a sexual fetish to go for. You’re the first to tell the tale. Maybe it’s your specific cultural background, I wonder.

(An empirical study in your specific context would be interesting though. Especially since solid ones on sexual preferences are rare)

[unborn brook]

A normal sexual preference is not a fetish. Not for sure if you are trolling or not

[royal ridge]

I’m not sure if a preference for surgically modified genitalia can be regarded as something normal, but okay, if in regard to intensity a rather modest interest was meant, I wouldn’t necessarily call it a fetish either.

[fast prism]

@unborn brook So it is moral and humane because you perceive it as more wanted by women? What about the dudes who aren't straight?

[dry plover]

It is more clean
Not necessarily. If you just have normal hygiene it is not

women generally like it more
I dont believe you should mutilate yourself or your offspring for the off chance that some girl will like it more, but maybe thats just me. Sounds like a stupid reason to cut off part of your you know what

it is saver for the female as the bacteria that is there for uncircumcised men can crate yeast infections
So can bacteria that are present with circumcised people.

Yeah uncircumcised people can be unhygienic but so can circumcised people. It is not the presence of the foreskin that is a determining factor in this. Sound like a lot of BS reasons people tell eachother in order to convince themselves or others that they make the right decision. I mean this not in a personal way but more for society in general.

As a guy we all know the kid or kids that didn’t have it done and the girls avoided them like the plague
I don't know what place you grew up in but I have never seen anything like this. On the contrary, where I am from (and actually for most places around the world), being circumcised is more special than being normal.

Overall, I think you can decide whatever you think is best for your kids. I just am of the opinion that you shouldnt decide to mutilate your kids without them having any say in it, especially when it is for something irreversible like this.

Really the only places where circumcision are normal are English speaking countries, Muslim countries and Israel

Even more, in some countries non-medical circumcision is seen as genital mutilation and actually against the law

considered the same as female genital mutilation, which i think no one here would agree with

[candid flint]

I don't think I saw this point made, but forced circumcision is in a way trying to avoid some conversations with your kids about proper hygiene and safe sex, of course it doesn't prevent anything but makes talking about hygiene simpler. And it can be as a medical procedure for as an adult, for threating some problems, but if civilised world, I bet it doesn't have that much benefits.

[royal ridge]

“Trying to avoid conversations about safe sex”? Hey mate, it’s just a minor mutilation, not castration😅

[candid flint]

You misunderstood me, it's about how preventable many problems are with good hygiene and education rather than fixing the potential problems by eliminating one of the components.

[royal ridge]

All good, I just thought that it wouldn’t let me avoid much of the coaching I would want anyone’s sons to receive👍

[lethal steeple]

Translation: It’s fine as long as it’s not religious.

[dry plover]

No I am saying that when it is medically required, then sure. Thats not the same as saying ''its fine''

[royal ridge]

It’s also interesting when circumcising sub-cultures come up with a medical reason to do so exponentially more often. On the other hand probably a win-win billing fraud by the respective physicians

I only have anecdotal data regarding this, so if you can contribute a study I’d appreciate it greatly

[dry plover]

I have no idea. In the country where I am from, there are hardly any people circumcised (<6%). It is not normalized here and therefore the people having a circumcision only do it when they have e.g. a foreskin that is too small and therefore blocking blood flow etc.

Whether it is happening more often for medical reasons I cannot tell you. I doubt that is the case but it may be country specific

[charred bane]

Teaching a kid to wash their penis isn't difficult.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk

[nimble juniper]

I enjoy that this thread is consistent with the tldr wash yo dick

[fast prism]

Gives me a bit of hope for humanity tbh

[rigid quest]

If it's healthier to be circumcised, why be mad people do it for the wrong reasons? It increases the number of men who are circumcised. Which is a good thing.

It could have been a tradition passed down from 10000 years ago. Long before the Bible or the pyramids. Just like the great flood made it into the history books.

[nimble juniper]

It's not healthier tho.
It removes sensitive tissue that likely effects a man's sexual function.

[rigid quest]

What sexual function are you speaking on? Does it lower birth rates being circumcised?

This subject is very important. I'm not confident in making that decision if my next child is a boy. I'm leaning towards doing it if it really lowers chances of infections. Is this fake news?

[rigid quest]

How did they circumcise 2000 years ago without modern medicine??

Yikes that must have caused a lot of infections

[nimble juniper]

It lowers the chance of infection if you do not practice normal modern hygiene.
If the young boy is taught how to wash himself properly this is not an issue.
But the cost is a significant portion of healthy tissue that we evolved to have. Having a less sensitive penis can affect a man's sexual function negatively in a number of ways

like erectile dysfunction

inability to orgasm

etc.

The briss in the Jewish tradition is unchanged from thousands of years ago

they give the baby a little bit of wine to soften the blow

[rigid quest]

I can see why some countries only do it for serious medical reasons.

Thank you USA

[nimble juniper]

I was not consulted

If I was I would have opted against elective surgery on myself as an infant

[rigid quest]

I think I agree

Thank you Pete. I'm interested in what you have to say about what I posted in 2 other chats.

Free Will and Might

[dry plover]

It is not healthier. There are medical pro's and con's to it. IIRC the general consensus (in medicine) is: Don't do it unless it is medically required to fix some other medical issue. In the sense that it brings quite some risk without giving clear benefits. Only when the benefits weigh against the risk (e.g. in case of uninary tract problems) is it adviced to undergo a circumcision.
Why be mad? Because boys' genitals get irreversibly mutilated without them even having a say in it. If you want to circumcise your kid so bad, wait for them to be old enough to decide for themselves is what I would suggest.

As someone that comes from a country where circumcision is not ''normalized'' in the sense that society expects you to be snipped, I can tell you that there is quite some propaganda or at least misinformation about circumcision that is spread by (mostly) religious groups in order to justify their actions. Since the share of religious people in NA, Australia etc the amount of circumcised people is also higher. The fact that there are more men on earth that are not circumcised compared to men who are, and there are no clear benefits found for circumcision should tell you that the act of snipping does not grant any significant benefit other than the pleasure of the parents. Let me tell you, if my parents would've snipped part of my body that I could not get back EVER, without me having a say in it purely for their own satisfaction, I would break all contact with them and never talk with them again.

[royal ridge]

Sound arguments. Just in regard to a hypothetical breaking of contact to snip-pushing parents - that might only be true if done at later age. Since you wouldn’t remember the trauma, you’d probably adapted long before coming of age

[dry plover]

It is not about whether I would have a trauma about it or not (and also, you can have traumas even from events you cannot actively remember, even from the earliest days of your life, contrary to what most people seem to believe). Anyway, it is about having part of my body irreversibly removed without my consent. That is why I would break contact. Because at that point my parents obviously don't understand the concept of bodily autonomy, or they have a certain (wrong) sense of ownership over their kid. Parents dont ''own'' their kids. Children are not your ''property''. Children are living, breathing human beings and anyone, ESPECIALLY people believing in the christian god and the bible should agree to that. So then my biggest problem is why specifically THESE people act in ways that show complete disregard of the physical and mental wellbeing of their own children

[fast prism]

Having experienced, not remembered, and adapted to a trauma doesn't make it any less harmful.

[dry plover]

Thank you

I dont understand the notion of ''if you cant remember it cant hurt you'' like what?? That goes against so many findings in medical literature its actually a joke to think that

Now I understand most people dont have the time or interest to read and engage themselves with scientific literature on a wide range of topics and I cant blame you. But if your uneducated opinion is just that, uneducated, don't put your opinion forward as if it were a factual statement but be honest with yourself and others that it is just your opinion and nothing else.

And this is not just relevant to this discussion, but actually to pretty much any discussion held in these fora. I see a lot of people trying to argue their opinion on a topic as if it is factual.

[fast prism]

Yeah scientific literature can be dry but it's 2023 there are youtube videos and podcasts for this stuff now lol, doesn't excuse ignorance

[royal ridge]

@fast prism @dry plover What I wanted to hint at wasn’t so much the point that you could only cognitively infer a past trauma and parental misdemeanor, but that processes of cognitive dissonance, adaptation to the effects of that parental action and the general evidence for loving parents will probably make you accept the story that it was either a good thing or your parents were at least good willing and didn’t know better.

[dry plover]

No I get that, I just think that ''i was trying to do the good thing'' is not an excuse to do some irreversible act of any kind

If you cannot turn something back, you should not do it until you are absolutely sure you are not including any negative side-effects you didnt think about at the time

that is how world wars get started 🥲

[royal ridge]

Sure, but we would probably nevertheless have shrugged it off and just regarded it as parental stupidity done out of good will. Of course that would not be the case if they had decided to mutilate us for merely arbitrary or evil reasons

[dry plover]

but they do it for arbitrary reasons... or am i missing something?

Like, 50 years ago when it was done sure, people didnt know better and you trusted an authority on the topic (probably the priest or whatever in your church), but nowadays, everyone has access to the internet and anyone can look up for themselves what the benefits and drawbacks are, so at this time in history there are no excuses anymore to being ignorant 😉

thats all im trying to say

[royal ridge]

Look at the narratives brought forward to justify it. They aren’t: I prefer a less promiscuous sexuality for them, but health oriented or religiously justified to save you from greater evil

[royal ridge]

Well true. So it gets less easily overlooked in the future

[dry plover]

but health oriented is factually incorrect and everybody can look this up themselves and saving from greater evil is arbitrary, at least in my interpretation

i mean i get what you are saying, people think they are doing the right thing when they decide to have their kid circumcised

My argument is that they are just not thinking clearly enough about it thats all

like people here argued ''i want my kid to look like me''

now that is literally the definition of genital mutilation in my country if you snip your kid for that reason

can get you into jail actually

[royal ridge]

Have a look at what we do to children with mRNA injections, that - if you compare newer data - have 10th fold worse expected utility than expected harm. The system is still quite resilient in changing

[royal ridge]

If your parents are academics, you might be harsher on them than if they weren’t

[dry plover]

What do you mean with this? Dont need a full on explanation but can you like give me a starting point of reference so I can look this up, seems interseting to learn more about

[dry plover]

No because in this day and age you dont need to be an academic to find all the information you need

anyway, i get what you are saying, i just dont agree thats all

[royal ridge]

I referred to the data from this sheet, in combination with the data from expected harm in other studies https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1131409/appendix-1-of-jcvi-statement-on-2023-covid-19-vaccination-programme-8-november-2022.pdf

[royal ridge]

I guess we aren’t of different opinion in all but the question of how harsh to come down on our parents’ putative failings 😄

[dry plover]

Wait what in the data are you referring to. I read it and the appendix you provided only suggests that vaccination prevents hospitalization and severe hospitalization (e.g. ICU/oxygen)

[royal ridge]

In the NNV numbers needed to vaccinate to avoid severe cases of hospitalization (defined by necessity to give oxygenor worse), its a multitude of the number of severe cases of harm by the mRNA treatment , which is estimated to be between 1:800 and 1/2400

So it was at least clear for some months now that only In a very narrow spectrum of high risk groups of elderly that this therapy had a positive expected utility for the patients themselves

[royal ridge]

And for the data regarding unwanted side effects, you’ll have to scan PubMed for most recent ones or could probably take some out of the recent petition found here https://downloads.regulations.gov/FDA-2023-P-0360-0001/attachment_1.pdf

But in this case, it’s not so much the fault of one’s parents, but rather a collective delusion by high prior investments. But then, it could be similar with the mgm (male genital mutilation)