The Bible Has Contradictions

[tawdry hound]

How can someone believe a book is the perfect word of god when it constantly contradicts itself?

[hearty mason]

How can people get married?

[real aurora]

examples?

[muted knot]

Of course you would make a tread about this 😂

The only reason why you see contradictions in the Bible is because it's written by multiple people and translated multiple times. The book it's self is not supposed to be idealized nor worshipped. You take the teachings it provides and live a better life.

[finite salmon]

The only reason why you see contradictions in Grimm's Fairy Stories is because it's written by multiple people and translated multiple times. The book it's self is not supposed to be idealized nor worshipped. You take the teachings it provides and live a better life.

[muted knot]

Very funny 😒🙄

[tawdry hound]

This issue is most Christians take it as absolute truth

[tawdry hound]

When I get back from work I’ll give you 20

[muted knot]

I agree with you on this.

[cold knoll]

Some of the Stories in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally, they are used to convey a meaning and a lesson. eg, the creation of the world

[hearty mason]

Most of them.

[tawdry hound]

They were written literally but are not to be taken seriously today

[hearty mason]

If we took the Bible literally it would be a horrible book. Lying, twisting, contradicting and flat out cruel in cases. It is supposed to be taken as allegories to get good meanings about how to better yourself. It’s promoting Christianity and some people seem to be believing in the Bible as their God. Nothing wrong with someone having beliefs. The problem is when you start talking about the Bible logically or scientifically…

The amount of evil that has been done in this world due to the Bible is far greater than all the other religions combined.

If we look at it completely logically it has done more harm than Hitler through the ages

And then people argue “oh they missunderstood it”. NO! The people in power took it literally and followed it.

And during the crusades the translations were way more accurate than today 😆

[muted knot]

I disagree. Without some sort of a religion for some to follow, this world wouldn't be what it is today. You got to keep in mind, this "evil" you speak of. Isn't the Bible's fault, as it has no will of it's own. Mankind is the issue here, and will continue to be the issue until we change. You'r a brilliant teacher, have you not heard of my good friend Plato and his teachings??@hearty mason

[tawdry hound]

without religion we would be better

[hearty mason]

I didn’t say it would be better. I said if we take the Bible LITERALLY, it would be a worse world

[muted knot]

How so. Enlighten me

[muted knot]

I'm just giving you a hard time 🤣.

[tawdry hound]

oh no

paragraph incoming

[green acorn]

You know what I've realized? this is just a waste of time. The whole thing, speaking to you or really with anyone here about religion. This is the last time I'll frequent any religion based thread here because y'all just hate Christianity and America for some reason.

And @tawdry hound seems like, extremely against religion.

Simply put the biggest problem with modern theological discussion (or really any), is that we are not religious scholars. To my knowledge the books are not always meant to be interpreted literally and they are oozing with so much juicy context and pretext.

So no, I will not entertain your ego and your conflictive nature, it is a bit childish to just go onto discord and do this. Which is why I honestly got to get off ASAP, tis another flex of the proverbial muscle.

[tawdry hound]

hate on Christianity and America ):

i love america

and i love christians

[green acorn]

then there is no quarrel my good sir

[tawdry hound]

i am against religion

[green acorn]

Then why do you got to preach against it. This feels an awful lot like someone who wants you to believe.

[tawdry hound]

im not preaching

i want to have a formal and constructive conversation

it is quite rude to call me childish for that

[green acorn]

Well then I have a criticism, the way you go about it, and the titles you use beg anything but constructive and formal conversation.

[tawdry hound]

ok man 🤷‍♂️

[green acorn]

Also, going into the meta, are you doing this to better understand why people believe in religion? or something else?

[tawdry hound]

i am doing this to better learn Christian apologetics and my counters to them

[green acorn]

I mean why? Do you encounter so many people in your real life who try to argue with you, that you must fight back. Or are you seeking such engagements?

[tawdry hound]

yea i do...
I am the only one in my entire family that is atheist
there is no person on any side of my extended family that is
if i better learn how to counter these arguments then it is easier to break down in the future when situations arise

[green acorn]

In my earnest opinion it does not matter what they believe, or what you believe.

[green acorn]

Well then you have a good cause.

I can understand how hard it is to break away from the norm.

[tawdry hound]

👍

[green acorn]

It's just like, these things never end well. No one is ever going to make you a believer, or you make them not. Like your "Proof of God" thread, it ultimately does not matter. If one wants to conduct their life in a manner through faith, let them. It is better to believe in something than nothing.

[tawdry hound]

if people want to live like that i dont care if they want to discuss it in the thread then i am happy to do so
i dont think its childish
it is productive for me at least

[solid pewter]

That's the thing for me. I don't see it as productive at all. Not that I really care. Things don't have to be productive.

Most things people enjoy aren't really at all.

[slender tartan]

And why shouldn't we? If it is the words of God written down for us wouldn't you listen too?

[slender tartan]

Against religion. Then good. Because the word religion doesnt do Jesus of the bible justice

[finite salmon]

how so?

[slender tartan]

Because the word religion is defined as the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

So I believe that that is defined as power.. not a person, and Jesus is much more personal than that

[finite salmon]

Are you meaning to say that Jesus, being both the son of god and a part of god is not a power in the same way a god is?

[tawdry hound]

the "perfect words of god" are filled with flasehoods

[slender tartan]

Please explain.

[slender tartan]

guess he cant.. lols

[finite salmon]

More likely is busy with non-discord life. It's pretty common for people to be less active online on weekends.

Also you never replied to my earlier attempt to understand what you're meaning. I guess I should use your logic and assume that means you don't actually know what you mean.

[fickle flower]

When you seek falsehoods, you will find them. When you seek truth, you will find it. The reason for your conflict is in what you are placing your attention on. Whatever you seek for, my friend, you will find. No need to counter your family's beliefs. Only a need to find truth, then live without hypocrisy. Not every "Christian" is the same. Not every "Christian" is actually a Christian.

[fickle flower]

If there were actually a God, and you are a human, by the Bible's standards, then half of the answers you seek would never be possible to understand. According to the book of Isaiah, God said "my ways are not your ways, and neither are my thoughts your thoughts." There are some things that none of us can know, until after we pass from this life. It's a true mystery. And I do find it rather convincing that the Bible was left to humankind as sort of a treasure map to find our path through to the other side of death. We must all navigate carefully. Always check bias before beginning any of these types of conversations. That's my recommendation.

[tawdry hound]

You didn’t even hear what falsehood I have

And are discounting it because u believe I have cognitive bais

[slender tartan]

im saying he is a power in both as God and as man.

[finite salmon]

Sounds like the definition of religion you provided fits quite well then

[slender tartan]

so my definition should emphasize the word power, so we believe in a power, which is superhuman. For me, I believe in a God who was outside time/space/matter, that chose to realize those 3 limitations of our world, in order that we would understand him, just a litte.

[finite salmon]

Yeah still not sure what that has to do with the statement "Because the word religion doesnt do Jesus of the bible justice" I'm not following you

[versed glen]

Not that I care to get involved in this but its funny Truth Powers has been asked to back up the title of this thread multiple times and hasn’t once done it

[finite salmon]

🤷 here's a couple.
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20

“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5

"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah." - 1 Chronicles 21:5

"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand." - 2 Samuel 24:9

"These are the names of David’s mighty warriors: Josheb-Basshebeth, a Tahkemonite, was chief of the Three; he raised his spear against eight hundred men, whom he killed in one encounter." - 2 Samuel 23:8

"this is the list of David’s mighty warriors: Jashobeam, a Hakmonite, was chief of the officers; he raised his spear against three hundred men, whom he killed in one encounter." - 1 Chronicles 11:11

"You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you." - Genesis 6:19

"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate," - Genesis 7:2

"and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah." - Matthew 1:16

"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli," - Luke 3:23

"He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt." - Luke 9:3

"These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts." - Mark 6:8

[tawdry hound]

joseph didnt bang marry to make baby jesus

but he was the descendant of david

and the old testament says that Jesus would be the "fruit of his loins"

but there was no bang bang

[versed glen]

• ezekial is talking about guilt, exodus is just talking about the consequences of the sin. Obviously one suffers for the misdeeds of another, but that does not mean they are of the same guilt.

• divine inspiration doesn’t change that different authors wrote things differently and so theres times when exacts are not held. History is often a game of telephone and sadly the bible is not immune to that human proclivity.

-in Genesis those aren’t contradictory lol, the latter command is just more specific.

Cherry picking quotes isn’t gonna do much for you. Find philosophical contradiction and then you might have something.

[versed glen]

This is actually an interesting question and its one scholars have debated for a while. It can be assumed that while Jesus is the blood of God that he is still lawfully seen as a son of Joseph and so while not actually paternally descendent it is still listed that way.

[tawdry hound]

"fruit of davids loins"

[versed glen]

But the specifics of Mary and Joseph and Jesus are a very interesting question for sure because there are some differing accounts on what all happened with them

[finite salmon]

How are you defining philosophical contradictions? This way I can know what counts in your mind before the goalposts are moved again.

[versed glen]

I mean I don’t believe I’ve moved the goalposts since this is my first interaction in this thread, that seems to be an unfair characterization. I’m asking for when theres a philosophical contradiction in the bible which means theres something that contradicts its demonstrated philosophical claims. So for instance something within the bible that makes it unequivocally false that Jesus is the way to heaven. (And please recognize the existences of the covenant of Abraham in the Old Testament and covenant of Jesus in the New. That will save us both much time)

[finite salmon]

The original context was the title of the thread which is that the bible has contradictions.
Changing that context to be philosophical contradictions is moving the goalpost.

And while you may have just joined the thread you did acknowledge the title and original context in your first post here

[versed glen]

Well my conception of contradiction is the one I explained to you. I don’t consider anything you gave as contradictory beyond semantics.

[finite salmon]

having to add the qualifier "beyond semantics" implies acknowledgement of the contradiction without the qualifier that is being added

[versed glen]

No I think its only a contradiction with that qualifier of it being a semantic contradiction, not a true contradiction by my conception.

[finite salmon]

I'm not sure what the qualifier "true" add's to contradiction, but I'm not sure where you're getting a definition of the word contradiction that excludes types of contradictions

[versed glen]

“Actual” may be better but I’m attempting to make my meaning more understandable to you. And again imo you didn’t present any contradictions. When I say semantic contradiction what I really mean is “not a contradiction” because all thats being pointed out is that different authors wrote the different books of the bible and that does nothing to discount the message therein.

[finite salmon]

The problem I have with this is that results in amorphous definitions and interpretations and ignores existing definitions of words thus results in nothing can be contradictory because nothing has meaning.

The original context was that there are many contradictions in the bible, saying that well different books of the bible were written by different people doesn't take away the contradictory nature of the statements it just clarifies that two different people contradicted each other.

[versed glen]

Geez thats a massive leap, you should stretch before such strenuous exercise lol.
But no I massively disagree with that as I am being very clear with my definitions. Your proposed contradictions are not contradictions because of the reasons I stated. You would never see me committing to a Carnapian notion of frameworks

[finite salmon]

I don't find your definition to be clear at all. I find this definition of contradiction to be significantly more clear: a lack of agreement between facts, opinions, actions, etc.

Even taking your vague definition:
killing is bad then later saying kill anyone that kills.
How about don't sleep with your sister, but then later rewarding the guy who sleeps with his sister by smiling upon him and giving him a child thus implying it's ok at least sometimes.

[versed glen]

I think this is fair, so I should say that I am looking at the meaning behind the contradiction rather than the direct “semantic” contradiction. I assume that isn’t very agreeable to you which is what I mean by saying we are operating upon different frameworks. If I’m being charitable and adopt your framework for a moment than yeah I can’t disagree with you all that much if thats reassuring or meaningful to you in some way.

[hearty mason]

So there contradictions, but not to you personally as you understand the Bible according to your beliefs. To its core if you look at the book 100% objectively it had contradictions. That’s 100% accurate. If you can explain those through the belief system that’s fine for you. But to its core it is contradictory there is no arguing that..

And as for the title it is simply a statement of fact. I reckon he used it to get people who believe in literally every word of the Bible to start arguing against

[versed glen]

Again I’m not operating on a “oh I just believe this and that/subjectivism whatever” my interpretation is what I consider the most effective and optimal to the situation given my experience but again I can tell most of you disagree

[hearty mason]

From an outside view semantics is all that matters. That’s what the contradictions are for non believers. It’s a book.

[versed glen]

Yeah I think we agree on that lol

[hearty mason]

And that’s perfectly fine! It is an issue when you argue the topic with non believers as you need to find the objectivity.

[versed glen]

Yeah lol, thats what I was attempting to do but 🤷‍♂️

[hearty mason]

I’m not attacking you

[versed glen]

I never said you were lol, so far I don’t think i’ve been attacked

At least not in this thread

[hearty mason]

I just think semantics is very important as the discussion is not only between people who believe the same things

[versed glen]

For sure

I was trying to explain that but I’ve never had a talent for explaining complexities lol

[hearty mason]

If we all shared the same ones then yeah we can talk meaning. But when it’s opposite ideology semantics is the simplest objective way to argue. Truth stated that the Bible has contradictions. I personally was a believer for most of my life. I no longer am but I would always agree it’s contradictory. That’s because it is figurative. His main concerns as mine are with those claiming the Bible is always true and literal. Which frankly is impossible

[versed glen]

I mean sure but pointing out those contradictions are as meaningful as pointing out that in a normal book the page numbers aren’t accurate since they are only started after a couple introductory pages. Like yeah its true there are contradictions in the listed page numbers and the actual number of pages but so what? It isn’t a meaningful contradiction.

Thats all I’m trying to say

[hearty mason]

He made the post after two individuals in the other forum were arguing that there are never contradictions. Not semantic no nothing. That everything in KJV is always 100% right and correct and literal with no allegories. And that nothing is figurative. To someone saying that this actually is meaningful

Not productive, but we’d like to hear how they justify these contradictions

[versed glen]

Ah, well yeah lol idk bout all that, not acknowledging the deep metaphorical and philosophical content to the bible is doing it a major disservice

[hearty mason]

For me it is no longer faith

If you believe that, you are not a believer

[versed glen]

Yeah

[hearty mason]

If you know the truth as fact you can’t have faith. You are simply “knowledgeable” 😆 if you know what I mean

[versed glen]

Yep

I’m very Kierkegaardean in that way

[finite salmon]

Except you came in in the middle of the conversation, pointed to an earlier part of the conversation and then tried to remove all of the previous context after getting a reply.

Not acknowledging the existing context and details of a conversation is doing that conversation and its participants a major disservice.

If instead you had made it clear that while you were replying to an existing conversation you were actually starting a completely new and different conversation the response and reaction would have been very different.

[timid nacelle]

Here’s a good question is a religion and what it’s done today the fault of the Bible or the fault of the people?

[slender tartan]

Yes, both covenants exist(ed). You say that the existence of two covenants makes it false. I think you have missed a few key verses in scripture where it is explained why a new covenant was required. I will list 5 reasons, and with each reason, provide scripture to back it up. EDIT: here is a link so I dont have to explain myself. you can look up the scriptures to understand yourself. https://www.simplybible.com/f453-new-covenant-why-needed.htm

[versed glen]

Idk where youre getting that

[slender tartan]

So for instance something within the bible that makes it unequivocally false that Jesus is the way to heaven. (And please recognize the existences of the covenant of Abraham in the Old Testament and covenant of Jesus in the New. That will save us both much time) your words

so, you are saying in that comment that the existence of both covenants essentially disproves Jesus as Savior, yes?

[versed glen]

No, I’m asking him to present that, with the added knowledge of the covenants which hopefully would curb any attempt to try and use some passage from the old testament as proof which just ignores the covenant fo Jesus

[slender tartan]

ah ok. i misunderstood

im noticing he likes to argue and not debate.. its a tough world out here lol

[versed glen]

I mean you can say that about most athiests lol

[slender tartan]

true, what would you say you are?

[versed glen]

Christian

[timid nacelle]

So do you Celebrate his death?

[versed glen]

Celebrate his resurrection and his sacrifice

[timid nacelle]

Yes do you?

[versed glen]

I obviously don’t celebrate the act of his death, but I celebrate he died for me and everyone else. Whats the purpose of this questioning?

[timid nacelle]

It’s just a figure out if are you are what you say you are.

[versed glen]

Okay?

[timid nacelle]

I’ll take your word for it.

[timid nacelle]

But let me just say this very rare to find people that actually Celebrate/Commemorate that.

[versed glen]

You suspicious about my motivation or devotion?

[timid nacelle]

No it’s just A lot of people call themselves Christians when they’re actually not. As I recall if you’re Christian you’re supposed to be at Jesus follower Which means That you probably do everything he teaches.

[timid nacelle]

The most healthiest thing that Christians don’t do which is not looked upon as something bad tonight commemorate Jesus death. Which it actually is. Would let me find out whether you are true to your word or not. And I’m happy to find out you are.

🙂

[versed glen]

👍

[timid nacelle]

By the way I saw someone Argue Earlier that coffee are Drugs?

Is that tru?

[versed glen]

Depends on your definition of drugs but caffeine is addictive

[timid nacelle]

That’s The same thing I thought.

[timid nacelle]

Drugs for me or not medicine or things that Don’t harm me as much as them.

[timid nacelle]

For me it is something addictive that in the long term even under low use can be harmful.

[versed glen]

Caffeine can be harmful and can affect behavior as well as body patterns. It messes with your circadian rhythm and your brains natural cycles

[timid nacelle]

Not Really not if you don’t overdo it.

[versed glen]

Sure, I’m just saying it can be

Any drug is okay if you don’t overdo it

[timid nacelle]

No

[timid nacelle]

Some of them can have Harmful Affects over the years of use. Even under moderation.

[versed glen]

Thats not my point. Any “drug” can be used safely in the right amount. Caffeine certainly isn’t as harmful per milligram as heroine for sure but I’m saying both can and are overused

[timid nacelle]

Do you know heroine In small doses if you manage to keep it under control. Will give you cancer and a few years right?

[versed glen]

Everything gives you cancer now lol. But again not trying to say its not harmful or anything

[timid nacelle]

I haven’t heard of coffee giving you cancer have you?

[finite salmon]

Increase your risk of cancer is not the same as gives you cancer

[timid nacelle]

Ok good point It’s still more harmful. Specially if you do other things while You’re doing that.

[versed glen]

I feel this has gotten a little off topic, my only point is that to my thinking caffeine counts as a drug because it’s addictive and can be harmful if overused

[timid nacelle]

Sad I guess I couldn’t change your mind well to bad for me

By the way guys you got a really good thing you’re going I think any teenagers to come here you should just immediately kick out.

Don’t get me wrong I am a teenager compared to you guys.

[versed glen]

?

[finite salmon]

bye I guess?

[timid nacelle]

But still It is rare to find a community where there’s actually talking and no heated arguments or offense going on.

[timid nacelle]

No I’m not going anywhere I’m just saying you should feel proud of yourself for managing to do things that aren’t easy to do. Which is keeping conversations civil.

[finite salmon]

yeah.. not sure what that has to do with kicking out teenagers nor saying you're a teenager by comparison... There are plenty of teens that can have civil conversations and plenty of adults whom don't... it just doesn't make sense to me.

[timid nacelle]

Pride is wrong one put on the wrong things I myself don’t think that pride is wrong when you put it on self control at least I hope not.