#Should Abortion be Illegal?

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lilac pilot
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yeah and my belief is that there is NO definition of what constitutes a life that is agreed on by anyone

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nature is weird

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there will always be exceptions

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on the one hand it seems extremely arbitrary to not count a separate sperm and egg as life, but meanwhile call it life whenever they merge. But there also is not a clear boundary before or after that moment that is a clear indication of when something is ''new life''

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the whole problem is that we as humans like to put concepts in ''boxes'' in order to order them, but processes like reproduction are continuous and not discrete, so they don't particularly get put in these ''boxes'' very well

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and humans very much have a hard time thinking ''continuous''

hard igloo
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Good points

hard igloo
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I do believe that life can be defined in biological terms as well as by subjective values. Life is capable of growth, metabolism, and reproduction among other things. A sperm doesn't complete these processes and is thus not a living organism, though it remains a biological component that is involved in the sexual reproductive process. Once an egg becomes fertilized with a sperm cell, that egg begins to grow and divide into multiple cells creating an embryo. The cells of that embryo are metabolizing nutrients from the mother via the umbilical cord to work towards this growth and development into a fetus. The fetus continues to grow and develop up to the point of birth when the infant is large enough and organs developed enough to live outside of the womb. This child continues to grow and develop through its life becoming an adult and producing its own gametes that would eventually become another child.

This is my delineation of what constitutes a life, one that is commonly agreed upon by biologists. Value-wise, I hold life to be very precious and even in my worst times while growing up, I have been grateful that I am at least alive. Being alive allows me to be here commenting on what life is. I am optimistic in that I believe the good that life offers (e.g., happiness, meaning, understanding, love, fun) far outweighs the bad (e.g., misery, pain, suffering). I can completely empathize with people who have more pessimistic views of life, though in the case of abortion, there is no morality in rationalizing you are protecting the potential child (and mother) from future suffering when the child has no choice in the matter. Even the mother cannot be sure of the future outcome of a child born into poverty, danger, or other suffering. Many have pulled themselves from these dark places and unfortunate beginnings to demonstrate the value of human life in the best way imaginable: to make something from nothing.

valid rune
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And we have reached AD Hominem

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Name calling next?

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That is exactly what this thread is about...determining a definition of what constitutes a life that we can agree on.

No it is not. This is about whether it should be illegal to abort a fetus.

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That's like saying the question "It should be illegal to cut off your big toe" is a question about if your foot is alive

valid rune
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This is my delineation of what constitutes a life, one that is commonly agreed upon by biologists.
I would fervently argue that this is not the case for most of the scientific world.

hard igloo
# valid rune Name calling next?

Any worse than what you said earlier: "If that was the case then they would support social programs for children and struggling humans of all ages. Instead, they care about subjugation of minorities and the poor."

valid rune
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Once an egg becomes fertilized with a sperm cell, that egg begins to grow and divide into multiple cells creating an embryo.
Let me get a little vulgar here to illustrate a point. My sister has an IUD and on her period. She forgets to flush and so there is an egg in the toiled. I ejaculate into the toiled and that egg becomes fertilized.
No scientist would consider that a death of a human being, although you presume to make those few cells out to be an incestuous drowned child.

hard igloo
valid rune
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no its not

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we allow for killing in society all the time

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Billions of lives are lost every day just to feed us meat

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MAID is a thing across the globe

valid rune
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"Should abortion be illegal?" doesn't imply or reject that it might be murder.

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just as "Should cutting my toe off be illigal" doesn't imply or rejct that it might hurt

hard igloo
hard igloo
valid rune
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for the purpose of philosophical debate

hard igloo
hard igloo
hard igloo
valid rune
# hard igloo I propose that it is as it was the way I was taught and is the common position a...

A living thing pertains to any organism or a life form that possesses or shows the characteristics of life or being alive. The fundamental characteristics are as follows: having an organized structure, requiring energy, responding to stimuli and adapting to environmental changes, and being capable of reproduction, growth, movement, metabolism, and death.
I would contend that a 14 week of fetus doesn't have the capability of reproduction.
Also, as I have previously noted, it doesn't have the capability of sustained life without the life of the specific womb it is inside, therefore it is not a separate and distinct life.
The above informs my interpretation that, until such time as it can be seperated from that womb and continue to survive it is a part of the life of the mother, and she alone should have ultimate control over her healthcare.

hard igloo
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This conversation is getting ridiculous and unconstructive.

valid rune
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No, you just fail to accept my alternate viewpoint and alternate definitions

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ones that are entirely based in science and philosophy

hard igloo
valid rune
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You are willing, in your viewpoint, to accept murder if it is for health reasons for the mother, or for rape

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I understand your viewpoint, and they are inconsistent, and rooted more in dogma than science

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and I am trying to refute them

hard igloo
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If carrying a child to full term would explicitly put the mother's life in danger, then I believe it is a matter of self-defense and only then would I say abortion could be morally justified.

valid rune
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and rape or incest?

hard igloo
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Not including cases of rape or incest unless the pregnancy would explicitly put the mother's life in danger.

valid rune
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or if the mother and baby would live in poverty and sqyaller, possibly endangering both their lives

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when suffering could be avoided and motherhood postponed until a more fruitfull time

hard igloo
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That said, I believe the crime of rape should be punishable by death as it is a horrible injustice to the woman. Killing the child because of the mother being raped is not the moral answer.

lilac pilot
hard igloo
valid rune
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and I contend that the underdeveloped fetus is not the killing of a child, just like throwing out cake batter is not throwing out a cake

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You have your definition of where life starts, I have mine

hard igloo
valid rune
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your's is very dogmatic and conservative, mine is a more philosophical and grey undifined time part way through development inside the womb

hard igloo
valid rune
lilac pilot
# hard igloo I am a biologist and I fully accept that many people have different views on wha...

Yes and I do believe you are a biologist. But my problem with this is than generally within science, or at least my experience within science, we generally try to not state our stances on controversial or ill defined topics as factual. In this case I am only calling you out because it seems like you are trying to argue that ther is in fact a consencus within the biological community on what exactly life is. The reality is that it is an ongoing field and no one knows a good closing definition of life that does not result in exceptions. We are incredibly good in distinguising living things from non-living things and we have a lot of criteria on what we would describe as life, but we have no definition of what is life

valid rune
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egg + sperm: not unique distinct life
20 human cells in a womb: not unique distinct life
??????
3rd trimester: life
new born baby: life

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living != life by the way

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my liver is living, but its not distinct life

lilac pilot
valid rune
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I would contend that its more life than a 2 week old embryo. It can be transplanted and replicate

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and continue to life outside of MY body

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consume enegry, have complex form

lilac pilot
valid rune
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many of the above definitions of life

hard igloo
valid rune
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and why would a chicken egg be any different. Laid that morning you would never if it was fertilized or not.

hard igloo
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A conservative viewpoint is none the less philosophical than a liberal perspective. It depends on how reason is applied to the argument, and I believe I have reasoned myself well, but if not then please point out where my reason is lacking.

valid rune
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egg + sperm does not a human make

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it is a potential human

lilac pilot
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nah goatman i perfectly follow your reasoning, i just politely disagree

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but i think its clear

valid rune
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but separated by a lot of time and construction

valid rune
hard igloo
lilac pilot
valid rune
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I contend, that until the embryo can be separated from the discrete and specific mother it is not a seperate and discrete life

valid rune
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we are talking line in the sand here

lilac pilot
valid rune
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yours is milliseconds, mine in ~26 weeks

valid rune
lilac pilot
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or fungal colonies that specialize in certain metabolic tasks even though they are individual organisms

valid rune
hard igloo
hard igloo
valid rune
lilac pilot
valid rune
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that is my contention with an embryo until the ~26 weeks

hard igloo
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I'll let you guys go at it for awhile haha.

valid rune
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It's life cannot be transfered, it will never survive without the specific and unique life of the mother, therefore in my eyes they are 1 life

lilac pilot
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I think we only should even think about restricting bodily autonomy when it is a matter of overall societal welfare, for example mandatory vaccinations to get rid of polio

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and even then i think its a slippery slope

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Also, i personally don't see ''human'' life as any more special than the life of any other organism, therefore I don't neccesarily think having an (early) abortion is any worse than killing billions of other animals for consumption

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but i know thats a controversial stance

valid rune
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Im on the same page with that

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Which is why I keep going back to cows, chicken eggs etc.

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Also why I draw my definition where I did.

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Before such a time as the baby can be removed from the mother, there is literally no one else that can support that life

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after that time, doctors, the father, adoptive parents etc. can care for that life

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it has become seperate and discrete

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but forcing the mother to go through the strife of unwanted pregnancy, for some dogmatic or moral judgement society has made is like forcing someone to live with a curable life sentence

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I see no loss of life in early term abortion, and a whole host of problems with forced parenthood

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Society as a whole is better off with 1 productive member, who may at a later stage reproduce. than it is with a teen mother and an unwanted child

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I also contend that the "Pro Life" movement is a misnomer. It's a "Pro Birth" movement.

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They seem to care more about a 8 week embryo than about starving homeless, malnourished orphans etc.

timber ravine
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I got pinged earlier here but can’t find the message

valid rune
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They could be doing far more to care for the lives we already have, and be far less focused on subjugation of expecting mothers

valid rune
rocky sky
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I think everyone should focus a lot less on what constitutes life, and actually consider what constitutes human life. It's my understanding that the pro life arguement, among other things, posits that the fetus is a human life, and is therefore incredibly valuable. To define human life is a lot harder than just life.

supple ivy
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Calling human life incredibly valuable is the stretch here, I think the difference between Fetus and Baby Human is easier to bridge.

rocky sky
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And even when you do manage to do it, which likely will result in an incredibly arbitrary definition, you have to consider that society as a whole does not value all human life equally, not by a long shot. Even @hard igloo advocates for the death sentence in certain cases. Children are valued a lot higher than adults, and especially older people. Criminals can find themselves completely discarded from the equation, especially if their crimes are more heinous, despite being living humans. And I'd side a little with oxblood on their specific point about that, the issue of abortion and the prolife movement might be somewhat hypocritical, as there is a lot less push for the stopping of the death penalty or saving homeless lives, and the majority of support for the prolife movement comes from a demographic that views sex as a sin, and might in extreme cases be looking to punish people for it. That is not at all to say that that's the entire point of the movement since i truly believe there are good people doing what they think is right within it, but something to consider

supple ivy
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If one baby’s life can be worth anything, it’s the same practical effect as a fetus having value. Bar medical investment being lower, there isn’t a thing that makes a fetus not human. Fuck the ‘prolife crowd’ as it were, and Legalize Abortion for the sake of it’s good uses. But we lose something better than the benefit if we insist on making our reproduction into some optional waste product, the same facsimile as feces to be disposed of.

rocky sky
supple ivy
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I like to think that if a truck stop hooker wants the guiness record of most abortions in one human body, then by all means you can find some people somewhere who legislate that way. Go forth, and vote on this issue. No Supreme Court, no fed. It’s divisive because it’s Pure Human Life, it’s not the opposite of that!! I can see that You wouldn’t think of it like the extreme opposite, but it’s That which I deny deny deny because that’s the only thing I see at risk.

rocky sky
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Can you elaborate a little on your view, I'm having a bit of trouble grasping it, sorry

supple ivy
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A ten year old girl is raped, and is impregnated. This is the obscene form of horror that both sides will latch onto, using shock and awe to wage an ideological battle. It’s a terrible method for the pro-dem because it’s Them who are endorsing the true brutality. A necessary brutality, obviously! But the issue is Nigh to become a centuries long one. It hasn’t gotten a proper resolution because state’s legislative rights are being ignored by Blue, who wants unanimous abortion guarantees, and will use the form of Human Life in the Womb as an iconoclast, a “necessary” sacrifice, to Force the issue to be more sterile and distant from the Fact that it is a human Kill.

rocky sky
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Woah woah woah, i understand but i disagree strongly

supple ivy
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Let me vote for a politician who promises to make abortions mandatory, if that’s what I am offered. I’ll go to the end of the hall on that one. Truck Stop Hooker, 500 abortions, just so she can accomplish it? That’s 500 dead children to me, but I’ll stand by the principle that it’s who was elected in this State, orrr this Nation, to the internationalist. It’s not something that people in the Supreme Court can decide.

rocky sky
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You talk about using obscene forms of horror, using shock and awe, and waging ideological battles by the pro choicers, yet you yourself gave the example of, and i quote, "a truck stop hooker who wants the guiness record of most abortions in one human body"

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And not considering a fetus a human life is a valid point of view, just because some don't see it that way doesn't mean it's wrong. There are arguements to be made in its favor

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And as a non american, i don't think with how broken and messed up the american political system is you should put the issue in the hands of representatives, even if you think they were voted in which is doubtful in and of itself considering things like Gerrymandering and lobbying

supple ivy
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This is misunderstanding. The notion that a 10 year old girl is raped and the debate of her necessary right to abort for the sake of her life is obscene because she should OBVIOUSLY be aborting this child, it’s impossible! The prolife crowd is Mid Wit to debate this, and the ensuing fight over this slam dunk of a decision means that the lexicon of abortion debate is now the debate of “When your 10 year old daughter is rped, where will your principles be? Will you still be prolife?” Versus the question of “Can we actually compromise to the point of not hating each other, instead of shoving dead r babies at each other?”

rocky sky
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To put your trust in some politician is frankly a terrible idea

supple ivy
# rocky sky To put your trust in some politician is frankly a terrible idea

Most likely, Women elect the politicians who assure abortion protection. This means we create a significant political gradient which could be a positive thing, could be negative. I think it makes some sense to have states that can end up legislating heavily prolife, because then people who disagree ought to leave, to a better place.

rocky sky
supple ivy
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I figure it works out bad in the end as always, but I like my assumed position for the abortion debate. Women elect more pro choice candidates who just happen to blunder into a war with China on the side, so I get drafted and sent to the swamps of Yemen or whatever

rocky sky
supple ivy
rocky sky
supple ivy
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Yeah 😭 I hope you do great but if we’re forced to eviscerate one another I want you to know it’s better you than me, as per the NAP.

rocky sky
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Nah man I'm deserting the first chance i get don't worry, me and you aren't gonna be fighting, no way in hell I'm fighting for this place bro

supple ivy
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Lmao come gamble in America, we have nothing good here.

rocky sky
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America is so much like where I'm already from, it'd be like going right back home lol

supple ivy
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I’ll sling cards, talk about the ways a Chinese property market finance victory is feasible, and maybe it’s good for everyone, hell. I have a whole thread of slander up (Does China have a slave trade in the Congo?) but I am borderline tolerant of what the lesser evils look like.

rocky sky
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Aw man if war breaks out imma try to get laid, no way in hell i get into politics

supple ivy
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Big problem in America is realtor conglomerates that buy property. This versus transnational businesses doing the same thing, with a particular lean towards Chinese market makers. It leads me to think, America repays years, decades, of irresponsibility by selling its land out from underneath the people’s feet. An idea that seems so crazy, and so disastrous, it might just work!

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I say “big” but it’s really more like a low medium. Kinda like luxury amenities. Home ownership is just gone for the effect of it, its purpose is commonly “I buy this house and rent it and use rent to pay for my next house” down to the individual level. So everybody wants Two houses. Not everybody of course, less than the majority. But the significance of it is that this particular behavior is successful and reproduces itself causing the inequality to grow. Extricate the problem by removing the agency of these crabs in a bucket, they can only opt to use homes for Home. Is it good that normal people wind up exporting their value just to sleep in their bed? Nope! Really bad! But doesn’t it fix a thing, too? In a duct taped banjo kind of way!

rocky sky
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That's really interesting, but i barely understand it, don't think I've got much of a head for it all

supple ivy
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Everything I say is speculation and I don’t know anything. I’m lecture bait for whoever specifically knows the real shit.

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Easily I’d be out there begging for a crumb of pussy or something, but alas, How do I even KNOW… never mind.

hard igloo
# rocky sky And even when you do manage to do it, which likely will result in an incredibly ...

I think what @supple ivy said before this--that calling human life incredibly value is a stretch is correct. I believe human life has incredible potential--potential for both evil and good.

I wouldn't say that a human life is harder to define than just a distinct life. A human is just a particular species, and one that can actually be more easily defined than many other forms of life that we are aware of...speaking in biological terms. The value we attribute to human life is where it gets difficult to constrain to a single definition. I again state that humans are immensely capable of good and of evil.

I have related my position on where I place the beginning of a life earlier in this thread if you are curious about it. My primary contention here with a "pro-life" ideal is that there is great potential for good in a human fetus. The fetus which will become a child and eventually an adult can be nurtured to such a point where this individual will be capable of such good. I greatly value what life has to offer, and I seek to protect the unborn who do not have a choice in the matter whether they will experience and decide for themselves if life is worth living or not. That is the core of my argument for the immorality of abortion.

As to my views on the death penalty, anyone can also follow that thread and see what I have said previously. I believe my position remains consistent. As humans are immensely capable of good, they have an equal capacity for evil and destruction. Violent crimes such as pre-meditated murder, rape and terrorism are evils that directly harm innocent lives. Such evil does not value life or personal liberty in the slightest, and I believe it is necessary by living in a 'just' society for that evil to be destroyed. Those that use the gift of life as a weapon to torment, torture and take the lives of others ought not to have such responsibility. This is the core of my argument for the morality of the death penalty.

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Be careful in how you stigmatize the opposing positions such as the "pro-life" crowd. I also agree this is a misnomer as much as the "pro-choice" crowd is a misnomer. Of others I know personally who would make the same "pro-life" argument as myself, none have the view that homeless people should die, none view sex as a sin. Don't mischaracterize an alternate point of view to reinforce your own position. If your position can stand by itself through reason, you do not need to attack the other side. Any philosophy that is not supported by reason will crumble on its own.

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All this said, I have stated before that I believe the legality of abortion should be compromised upon. This ought to be legislated at a state level rather than a national level. And federal protections of abortion up to the point of birth are both immoral and completely unjust. They do not reflect the majority view (at least in the US) which is that there ought to be a compromise at some point before the third trimester. The "safe, legal and rare" condition of abortion should be a good ideal to go by.

rocky sky
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I've read through all of the messages before i responded, i apologize if i misunderstood your stance.

Can you give me your definition of a human life? I don't know the scientific way to define a human.

I don't understand how the potential good that a fetus might do, should it be born is of any value. I totally understand if that's something that holds value to you personally. But overall, it can be argued that the same potential of evil offsets that, or that potential alone is of no worth. We don't punish people if they show potential for crime, so i don't see how much worth can be assigned to that. I know you said you think the good and the happiness is worth a lot more than the evil and the suffering, but that's by no means objective. And statistically, most people don't realize their great potentials, they end up mediocre, which further makes me doubt that potential for good is worth much.

I don't see how justice as a concept even exists. How can punishing someone for doing wrong even provide the smallest bit of good to the world? And how is death the only way to take the capability of evil from those who would cause it? Isn't incarceration just as viable?

rocky sky
# hard igloo Be careful in how you stigmatize the opposing positions such as the "pro-life" c...

I'm going to heavily push back on this. The people who make the same pro life arguement as yourself are not the majority of the pro life population. And it's a different thing to believe that homeless people should die, to fight for their lives as fiercely as you would fight for the unborn fetus. And the momentum to ban abortions dwarfs the efforts to save the lives of the homeless, which speaks volumes about how genuine the pro life stance is. It's very important to examine everyone's biases. I didn't say what i said to detract from your arguement or reinforce mine, merely to keep in mind these things. It's dishonest to try and ignore this matter.

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As i said, "that is not at all to say that that'sthe entire point of the movement since i truly believe there are good people foing what they tbink is right within it, but something to consider"

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Oxblood also brought up a great point, that the effort to harass those who get abortions, those who provide it, demonize the concept, protest outside abortion clinics and preform truly heartless acts of hate in supposed defense of life are far more probounced than improving the american foster system, providing necessities for children, and making sure overall that great potential of good is realized

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We can discuss the issue in a strelized way, not taking into account the realities of the sides of the debate, if that's what you want

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But otherwise these are important, especially when considering the opinion of the majority, since you think that's what should determine the legalities of the matter

hard igloo
# rocky sky I've read through all of the messages before i responded, i apologize if i misun...

A life or living entity displays several characteristics that are commonly agreed upon by biologists: a living thing displays cellular organization, maintains homeostasis (to a degree), responds to stimuli, adapts via evolution, metabolizes forms of energy, grows, reproduces and passes on heritable information to future generations (DNA and RNA).

A "human" is simply a species within the collective of all biological organisms and is based on our DNA, morphology, modes of communication and stimulus response, etc. Philosophically speaking, many consider the concept of a human to be 'a rational being' (i.e., homo sapiens). That is not to say all humans are capable of reason but that it is unique to humans. Of course this is a subjective view of humans, but one that I largely but not completely agree with.

rocky sky
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And can you explain how a fetus stacks up against those same criteria? The biological ones. The philosophical definition excludes a decent amount of humans, doesn't it? It also includes other species i think, since crows, orca, dolphins, or other animals are also capable of reason. And again, it excludes the fetus, at least until it's grown to a certain point

valid rune
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It is more valuable to society for a young mother who doesn't want the child, to keep following that increased path of productivity rather than becoming a burden on society, adding the burden of an unwanted child, and decreasing her future value

rocky sky
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I don't think when pro lifers talk about the value of human life, that's the one they're talking about. It's a lot more emotional and way less pragmatic

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It's mostly arbitrary value assigned to children out of innocence or something, and defenselessness

valid rune
valid rune
rocky sky
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I still can't believe americans wanna put that decision in the hands of state legislators

valid rune
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The value of an average 5 year old to society is significantly less than the average 15 or 25 year old

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But we as a species are deluded by chemicals to place more emotional value on young

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The "love of children" is an evolved chemical and physiological change in the brain as means to better ensure the survival of the species

rocky sky
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I think humanity has moved on from assigning value to who is more useful, we can safely base our policies on what is right and wrong

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However we decide to define right and wrong, at least

valid rune
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Likewise, there are 8 Billion people on earth, why is so much more import placed on a fetus in USA compared to a 10 year old in Africa

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A $1000 plane ride can save you 11 years of investment

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At $10-20k a year to raise a kid, and you get it sooner that's a huge value gain

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A much better use of resources

rocky sky
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You're a scary person man

valid rune
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I'm a pragmatist

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I also dislike loud unruly things that disrupt me or counter progress in inefficiency

hard igloo
# rocky sky I'm going to heavily push back on this. The people who make the same pro life ar...

I agree that there are plenty who view this subject with complete bias and hate. On both sides there are these members and unfortunately they are the ones that are loudest and get the most media attention. As you see the harassment on the "pro-life" side, I see the radicals of the "pro-choice" side praising the ability have an abortion and boasting of killing the baby. This is not hyperbole and is more disgusting to me, though equally wrong as harassing one who is genuinely conflicted on the matter of having an abortion or not.

valid rune
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The biggest thing to me is, making abortion illegal doesn't stop them, it just makes them less safe

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Better done by a doctor in a medical facility than in an alleyway with a coathanger

hard igloo
rocky sky
valid rune
rocky sky
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It's a logical fault in that line of thinking to disregard and ignore humanity's equal potential for evil, yet proclaim their potential for good as the reason why they are valuable and should be preserved

echo musk
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I still have yet to see a refutation of one's supreme right to bodily autonomy. It's disturbing that some people think my right to what happens within the confines of my own body should be violated for someone else.

rocky sky
valid rune
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Does a father have parental rights in the decision of a mutually agreed to conceived fetus?

echo musk
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Is the fetus occupying the father's body?

valid rune
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So men have no reproductive rights

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In your mind?

rocky sky
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If a pro lifer truly believes that abortion is murder, they'll never be convinced to see the merit and good in it due to bodily autonomy

echo musk
valid rune
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I said mutually agreed to pregnancy

echo musk
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And if the pregnant person changes their mind during?

valid rune
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That's my question to you

rocky sky
valid rune
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Do you think a man should have reproductive rights?

echo musk
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My stance remains the same. No one should be forced to be used as an incubator for someone else

valid rune
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Based on their point

echo musk
valid rune
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You didn't answer the question.

echo musk
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I did

rocky sky
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I can agree that right to bodily autonomy trumps reproductive rights

echo musk
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Men should have reproductive rights, so long as those rights do not supercede the rights of others

valid rune
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And here

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So men are sperm donnors up until birth?

echo musk
# valid rune And here

I have a right to life. My kidneys fail, and you are the only match. Does my right to life supercede your rights to your body?

valid rune
echo musk
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It's an analogy

valid rune
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I never agreed to share my kidneys

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The woman agreed to share her womb

rocky sky
echo musk
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What if you did? Should you never be allowed to change your mind?

valid rune
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And without that womb the man cannot have a child

echo musk
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Without your kidney I would not have a life

valid rune
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It's a corner case for sure, but your stance is that ultimately men have no reproductive rights

echo musk
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You are building a strawman against me

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My stance is that no one's rights should violate the rights of another

valid rune
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No, I'm of the same opinion, but I wanted to be clear

echo musk
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The second one's rights violate the rights of another, the violators rights need to be pushed back

valid rune
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Ultimate reproductive decision lies exclusively with the mother for the first 26 weeks

echo musk
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Me, personally, I would never want to be used as an incubator for a man against my consent

valid rune
#

But you must now live with the knowledge of that inequality between the sexes

echo musk
#

I already do?

valid rune
#

Most women don't acknowledge it

errant cove
#

I'll chime in with the Pete argument. Um actually, rights don't exist 🤓

echo musk
valid rune
#

For a man to have a child they must find a willing, living human and are at their mercy for ±9 months

echo musk
#

Women absolutely got the short end of the stick when it comes to the act of reproduction

echo musk
valid rune
#

It's not a competition

rocky sky
#

For a woman to have a child they most go through extreme physical and mental trauma with secere lasting consequences

valid rune
#

It's a statement of fact

echo musk
#

It's an irrelevant fact

valid rune
errant cove
echo musk
valid rune
#

Whereas the man has no choice

echo musk
rocky sky
valid rune
#

It's the man's child

errant cove
echo musk
valid rune
#

I did in my assumptions that only 1 party has a womb

rocky sky
#

You can opt out of the sacrifice, not force someone else to go through it

echo musk
valid rune
#

You are getting defensive and slightly belligerent

errant cove
#

I guess it is more the baby going through the physical trauma, most women still report severe depression and regret after abortions

echo musk
#

Source?

errant cove
#

Gimme a sec

echo musk
rocky sky
#

I don't think you're arguing in good faith oxblood

valid rune
#

I am of the same opinion. Up until such time that the fetus is a viable and distinct life, it defacto counts as the mothers life

echo musk
#

Also depression and regret are not the same as physical truama

valid rune
echo musk
#

You and I both agree that no one's rights should be superceded by another's

valid rune
echo musk
rocky sky
#

I don't think there's any harm in simply having the inequality in mind in the discussion, just that there was some miscommunication

echo musk
#

By giving you an analogy?

errant cove
valid rune
#

Oops edit it, it did say that 2 parties decided to have a baby. Only 1 has a womb

#

Phones are hard

echo musk
valid rune
#

Should women be part of the draft?

rocky sky
#

Oooook, think you guys should probably start a new thread

#

That's one huge discussion

echo musk
rocky sky
#

I'd love to join in, but probably shouldn't clog up this one

valid rune
#

Currently in the USA when you turn (18 IIRC) they MUST register to potentially die for their country. Women don't have to.

valid rune
#

A boys life is being threatened at the benefit of yours

echo musk
#

I know, bur you did ask my opinion

valid rune
#

They don't have any input

#

Should the woman be exempt solely based on sex

echo musk
#

Men should not be mandated just because of their sex, more significantly.

valid rune
echo musk
#

I guess I'm naive and we'll leave it at that

rocky sky
valid rune
#

I'm not arguing for or against it. I'm saying is it just, given that this thing currently exists, to only take 1 side of the population?

#

At their expense

#

Without choixe

echo musk
#

I'm done with this conversation. I have given you my answer. It is not even relevant to the channel. You sound like an MRA trying to score a point in the oppression games. I'm not interested in anything approximate to that

valid rune
#

But I also agree, this should probably be split off

rocky sky
#

Most wars are definitely not started for the good of the people

valid rune
echo musk
#

I have not made a single assumption

valid rune
#

If you are that dismissive because of 2 questions it's not worth engaging

echo musk
#

I have just stated your talking points and desire to point of disparity towards men remind me of MRA talking points

valid rune
#

You sound like an MRA trying to score a point in the oppression games.

Assumption no?

echo musk
#

I said you sound like, not that you are

#

I don't know what you believe. I only know what you've said and asked. And what you've said and asked remind me of MRA

valid rune
#

Fine "implication" of an assumption

echo musk
#

I wouldn't even cede that

valid rune
#

Is MRA and different from Feminist under current usage of the terms

echo musk
#

MRAs are the ideological opposite of feminists yes

valid rune
#

-ISM

rocky sky
#

Y'all are getting out of hand. Yes mandatory military service sucks, just because it's not a thing in the US doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't unfair to men, but clearly it doesn't happen in the US so it doesn't concern you

valid rune
#

Sorry on a phone

rocky sky
#

Isn't femenism equality for all genders? And isn't MRA still equality, even if it doesn't fight for all genders?

echo musk
#

Yes

errant cove
echo musk
#

I have not seen an MRA platform that was striving for reinforcing the patriarchy

rocky sky
errant cove
#

atleast in main stream culture

echo musk
valid rune
#

Feminism under modern use is IMO equivalent to FRA

echo musk
#

If anything, feminism has become more aware of its own shortcomings and adapted to them several times. Hence the seperate waves

#

The dismantlement of the patriarchy serves to benefit men and women

valid rune
#

It just seems like you are fine discussing when females are disadvantaged, but if males are disadvantaged it's "scoring internet points"

rocky sky
#

What does all of this have to do with the service?

errant cove
#

There are biological differences between men and women, the US today is probably as close to equal as physically possible

#

And if not, why not?

echo musk
#

You brought up "disadvantages"

#

I was talking about abortion rights

echo musk
errant cove
#

All that did was gives states more rights

rocky sky
echo musk
#

False

valid rune
#

Of which, if they are granted, give females reproduction decision making males will never have

errant cove
echo musk
#

Did the 14th amendment take away states' rights?

echo musk
errant cove
valid rune
#

From sperm donation onwards, male lose decisions making in reproduction

rocky sky
echo musk
echo musk
errant cove
#

Besides differences in court rulings and other extremely niche scenarios, I don't know what rights men have women don't

valid rune
#

Females can chose at any point they don't want the kid, men are at their mercy for at minimum 2 trimesters.

rocky sky
#

With how fucked up US elections are i don't think more state rights are a good thing

echo musk
rocky sky
valid rune
errant cove
#

Some states don't like killing baby's, if you don't like that, move to one that does?

echo musk
#

Women no longer have the total right to bodily autonomy like men do

errant cove
#

You have any right you want

echo musk
errant cove
#

Prove me wrong then

rocky sky
valid rune
rocky sky
echo musk
#

And have said I am no longer interested in discussing it

valid rune
#

A USA male can be legally forced to forfeit their life

#

Is that not the ultimate infringement of body autonomy.

One that does nore apply to females.

errant cove
echo musk
#

As I have asked you several times to stay on point, and you have not respected that, I am going to cease our conversation outright

rocky sky
#

Should i go on?

#

Not having the means to just up and leave for a different state?

errant cove
#

Election fraud... woah

#

Big claim

valid rune
rocky sky
# errant cove Big claim

What an eloquent arguement, and how nice that you addressed all my points and didn't ignore all of them in favor of a single one

rocky sky
valid rune
#

Someone else choosing that I get shot in the face seems like a big infringement on my body autonomy

valid rune
rocky sky
#

In the case that a war does start, which is increasingly unlikely, women still fair worse seeing as men just get killed, women get raped and abused. Ever hear of the rape of nankin?

valid rune
#

But I like to put all cards on the table

rocky sky
#

And if putting all cards on the table is your point, don't women need to get permission from husbands to tie their tubes?

#

And if we're reaching for other countries as you have, in mine the wage gap still exists, how bout that?

errant cove
valid rune
#

There is unavoidable sexual dimorphism in our species.
This has lead to a bunch of inequalities on both sides of the sexes.
If we want to talk about bodily autonomy it behooves us to address it from all sides

rocky sky
#

In my country women can't go out without a hijab, is that not an infringement of bodily autonomy?

valid rune
#

Just as I want women to have ultimate decisions with what happens to their body, I think men should have the same

#

Currently, in the USA, they dont

valid rune
rocky sky
#

But you're not voicing that opinion, one that everyone agrees with, at the right time or the right place

#

The person you were arguing with outright said they don't think the draft should exist

#

I'm of the same opinion

valid rune
#

I was bringing up a point on the other side, in the jurisdiction we have been most discussing

#

With far more ultimate consequences

rocky sky
#

But far, far less likely to happen no?

valid rune
#

Yes, but given that it does, should it be applied to everyone

#

It's a philosophical question

#

In line with the chat, and in line with the point she raised about bodily autonomy

#

She has every right not to engage with it.

#

And to leave the chat

rocky sky
#

But what was the point of further arguing when she said they think the draft shouldn't exist?

valid rune
#

But I don't see how it is out of context, given she brought up the subject of bodily autonomy

rocky sky
#

Didn't she already agree with you?

valid rune
#

Given that it does exist, saying it shouldn't doesn't answer anything.

#

I don't think unwanted pregnancy should exist

#

But given that it does

#

insert this chat

rocky sky
#

But you can't make unwanted pregnancies go away. You can however make the draft go away. Therefore it is in fact a viable solution to do so

valid rune
#

I cant

#

And who says we can't make unwanted pregnancy go away

rocky sky
#

And what did you want her to do?

#

Sign up to go to war?

valid rune
#

Crisper away egg release in women, or sperm tails. Then force in vitro

#

Boom, you have to ask for a pregnancy

valid rune
rocky sky
#

Can't do that to every woman, at least not realistically, with today's means

rocky sky
#

As in, no american should be subject to registration

valid rune
#

That's not an answer to the questio

echo musk
# errant cove Election fraud... woah

A North Carolina senator literally ran as a Democrat then immediately fell in line with Republicans once she won. If that's not voter fraud then idk what is

valid rune
#

Given that it DOES exist

#

Like unwanted pregnancy

rocky sky
#

But it can be made to stop exist, if people agree on it. You can't make unwanted pregnancies not exist

valid rune
#

I just told you how.

rocky sky
#

One is a law, much easier to change than a fact of nature

echo musk
valid rune
#

It might impact population growth

#

But it's possible

rocky sky
#

Changing a law is 1000 times more possible than what you suggested

#

What you suggested is a theory, changing a law is a reality

valid rune
#

It sounds like she would be fine with ONLY men registering until the USA gets around ridding itself of it.

#

Status quo

#

But I cannot be sure, because I never got an answer

rocky sky
#

And it's SO MUCH FASTER AND EASIER to change the same law, but instead of making it go away, make it apply to women to

valid rune
#

Exactly

rocky sky
#

Both procedures take the exact same amount of time, given that they change the same law

valid rune
#

Much more feasible in the current USA political climate to delete the word "men" than to remove the draft

rocky sky
#

Even if that was true, just because men suffer doesn't mean to create equality women should suffer too. The solution to inequality isn't to make everyone equally miserable, it's to make life easier for everyone

valid rune
#

So we just leave inequalities I there until we can get rid of them?

rocky sky
#

Just because black men receive harsher punishment for weed doesn't mean white men should receive the same unreasonable punishment for it

valid rune
#

Without socialized healthcare the damage from recreational drug use mostly stems from the fact that it is illegal

rocky sky
rocky sky
#

Same arguement i made can be applied to most crimes, seeing as black men receive harsher punishments than white men generally

valid rune
#

But I would say that GIVEN that it is criminal, punishment/rehabilitation should be based on the receptiveness to correction, not skin tone or sex

rocky sky
valid rune
#

Again, it's a given in this case that it IS criminal

rocky sky
#

See, I'm giving you the same two options you gave her, either admit that you rather keep the unfair and unjust status quo, or agree to punish everyone equally

#

Those are your only options

valid rune
#

Thats how the question was phrased

rocky sky
#

Choose from thos two

#

No third option, that's hard to implement

#

No no no, stop typing, I'm not gonna accept any other solution, we should all suffer

valid rune
#

It's a false dichotomy. The true example would be ALL white men getting away with murder, while ALL black men get the death penalty

#

And my opinion being " I don't think we should have murder "

rocky sky
#

The analogy stands, one group benefits due to an arbitrary attribute they had no hand in, while another suffers

#

It's way harder to eliminate the death penalty than making sure judges punish everyone equally

valid rune
#

They had a hand in it though, they broke established laws

#

Those boys didn't choose to be male

rocky sky
#

That had nothing to do with the amount of their punishment

valid rune
#

They still got themselves into the situation

#

It's not equivalent

rocky sky
#

Ok, fine, what about police brutality. Black men suffer way more than white men

#

Or, what about other forms of racism

valid rune
#

Treat them all equally

rocky sky
#

Still the same situation

#

So have police murder more white people

valid rune
#

If you are going to beat them, then beat them all

#

It will get changed faster

rocky sky
#

Are you sure you wanna make that stand?

valid rune
#

If you included women in the registry it would probably get a lot more traction to getting abolished.

#

and that initial change would be a much easier step than 0-100%

rocky sky
#

Or, that change can stick

valid rune
#

I don't think you understand how much of a utilitarian I am.

rocky sky
#

If one law changes to be extreme, the sunk cost fallacy would hamper any effort to completely reverse it

#

"Why did we include women only to then abolish the whole thing"

valid rune
#

Given that it's sat around for a generation effectively unused, there is an equal chance that it brings itself back into the spotlight requiring further amendment /abolishon

rocky sky
#

Plus there will be those who will use that as an attack on equality itself, saying that equality for one group of people was achieved only because another group got opressed, which brews resentment and divide between people

valid rune
#

especially with changing political winds, and a united front of women not wanting to be drafted

#

"someone who has lived in privilege sees equality as persecution"

#

doesn't change the fact that you corrected inequality

rocky sky
valid rune
#

That just promoted bloat in legislation

#

and grey areas for interpretation

rocky sky
valid rune
#

"we should just leave the criminality of gays on the books, no one acts on them anymore"

rocky sky
valid rune
#

"black can stay 5/8th people, we give them 100% currently"

#

"Men can stay registered in the draft, we havent used them for a generation"

rocky sky
#

Wait hold on, all of this is based on making the draft equal is easier than making it unlawful

#

Which is just not the case

valid rune
#

under the current political climat in the USA you'll have to do a lot to prove that one

rocky sky
valid rune
#

go on

rocky sky
#

You agree that women don't want to be drafted, many men such as myself also would oppise that change. If you tried to make the draft equal, you'd face a hell of a lot of push back

valid rune
#

it wouldn't be a referendum though

rocky sky
#

Whereas if you tried to abolish the draft, the majority of men and women would support it

valid rune
#

I doubt that

#

because the voting population isn't just the 18-25 year olds. Most voters are well past the draft age

#

and many right wing politicians would incist on keeping it

rocky sky
#

Even if everyone was indifferent to it, which is not the case, zero support is still far easier than a shitload of pushback in the form of riots and protests

#

Again, if you tried to make the draft equal you'd get widespread riots and protests, you can't tell me the same would happen if you tried to abolish it

valid rune
#

I doubt you would though. I wouldn't be surprised if the full half of the country on the Right supported it

#

and equality leaning women accepted it

#

I think the most opposition you'd see, given the society, would actually be from the moderate fathers of girls

#

until such a time as you tried to actually draft people

rocky sky
valid rune
#

They like their guns and their military more

#

they are proud of their girls going into the armed forces

rocky sky
#

Absolutely not, a majority of them are sexist and wouldn't think women are useful in a battlefield

valid rune
#

66% support

#

with 8% unknown

rocky sky
#

Actually, 55% support

#

and that's only to allow women in, not force them

valid rune
#

that reads as 66%

image.png
rocky sky
#

That's the general public, go down you'll see the stats for dems and Republicans

valid rune
#

only 26% opposed

rocky sky
#

Also, 29% of Republicans believe having women in the military would do more harm than good

#

Which is far more than the dems with 7%

valid rune
#

Broad consensus favours women taking on combat roles

Older are less supportive

rocky sky
#

The only other group as opposed to the idea are those of 65 years or older, with 21%

#

Your point was that republicans would be all in favor of forcing women in the military

valid rune
#

In the military is not the same as Active Combat Roles

rocky sky
#

I'm demonstrating that they are least likely to even support women having the option to go into the military, let alone be forced into it

#

Moving the goalpost

valid rune
#

You moved it

#

when you brought these stats in

#

these aren't "in favour of joining the military" stats

#

these are "women in Combat Roles" stats

#

and still have a majority apporval

#

and over 70% in under 50 year olfs

#

who are the new generation of decision makers

rocky sky
#

Ok, I'm gonna stop engaging now. You're arguing in bad faith and burying your head in the sand

valid rune
#

LOL, you moved the goal post

#

then accused me of it when I noticed

rocky sky
#

Whatever you say bud

valid rune
#

good day

rocky sky
#

Sure

valid rune
rocky sky
#

👍

hard igloo
hard igloo
rocky sky
#

One side has clearly done worse things to the other

hard igloo
errant cove
#

I have a very hot take on abortion that pro choice do not like. Besides religious views and people who don't like it because they believe it is murder. At a baseline I dislike abortion because I believe it promotes societal degeneracy.

rocky sky
rocky sky
hard igloo
errant cove
rocky sky
hard igloo
rocky sky
rocky sky
errant cove
rocky sky
errant cove
#

That's not a punishment. That's a consequence. A consequence is not necessarily a punishment

#

Cause and effect

rocky sky
#

If a consequence discourages a behavior, it's a punishment

errant cove
#

I dont believe what you just said is true

hard igloo
# rocky sky Should i go on?

Are you proposing an alternative of anarchy or complete tyranny here? Just because a political system is not perfect does not mean that it is a far better option than the alternatives.

rocky sky
#

Plus, this all assumes that people living their lives how they want is a bad thing

errant cove
#

It is

rocky sky
#

That women and men being sexually free is a bad thing

rocky sky
errant cove
#

Sex is for having babies

hard igloo
rocky sky
errant cove
#

If you dont want babies, don't have sex. Sleeping around and getting impregnated or impregnating others is not a good thing

#

It's not a even a consequence. It's what happens when you make that choice

#

Be as free as you want, just accept the responsibility of your actions

#

Men and women

rocky sky
#

Or why gay people do it? Are they trying to make babies?

errant cove
#

It's the primary reason, if two people show thier love for eachother through intamacy and want to start a family together, thats amazing

hard igloo
rocky sky
errant cove
rocky sky
#

And again, you're completely using children as some form of punishment for people not living their lives the way you deem right

errant cove
#

Children are not a punishment

rocky sky
rocky sky
errant cove
hard igloo
rocky sky
errant cove
#

If you view being a mother as a punishment, im sorry

rocky sky
errant cove
#

That's literally what you said...

rocky sky
errant cove
#

...

#

Ok

hard igloo
#

It's a pessimistic attitude towards children and towards life itself to consider pregnancy a punishment. Birth of a human being or for any living creature for that matter is a gift.

rocky sky
#

I never said i consider children to be a punishment, I've clearly stated that mathew treats them as such

errant cove
#

If you have sex, and become pregnant. Having to birth a child is not a punishment, it's simply cause and effect

rocky sky
#

As he said, they don't like abortions, not because children die, but because it discourages "sociatal degeneracy"

errant cove
#

A lead to B

rocky sky
#

Or, you can abort. A lead not to B

errant cove
#

I think the breakdown in the family unit has lead to many current problems

errant cove
rocky sky
errant cove
#

I'll agree that is debatble

rocky sky
errant cove
#

So that's where our views differ, okay

rocky sky
#

But a fetus, at least till very late into the pregnancy, isn't a human life

#

Yep

errant cove
#

I believe that once the egg and sperm combine you have human life

rocky sky
#

I think that should the fetus be given time, it will become a human life, but it's not immediately human after conception

#

Cuz i think, if that's how we think about it, if we start saying "if you do this/don't do this, then an extra human will exist" then there's no arguement to be made that a period isn't murder. All that woman had to do for that child to exist was have sex, but she selfishly chose not to

hard igloo
#

"I do believe that life can be defined in biological terms as well as by subjective values. Life is capable of growth, metabolism, and reproduction among other things. A sperm doesn't complete these processes and is thus not a living organism, though it remains a biological component that is involved in the sexual reproductive process. Once an egg becomes fertilized with a sperm cell, that egg begins to grow and divide into multiple cells creating an embryo. The cells of that embryo are metabolizing nutrients from the mother via the umbilical cord to work towards this growth and development into a fetus. The fetus continues to grow and develop up to the point of birth when the infant is large enough and organs developed enough to live outside of the womb. This child continues to grow and develop through its life becoming an adult and producing its own gametes that would eventually become another child.

This is my delineation of what constitutes a life, one that is commonly agreed upon by biologists. Value-wise, I hold life to be very precious and even in my worst times while growing up, I have been grateful that I am at least alive. Being alive allows me to be here commenting on what life is. I am optimistic in that I believe the good that life offers (e.g., happiness, meaning, understanding, love, fun) far outweighs the bad (e.g., misery, pain, suffering). I can completely empathize with people who have more pessimistic views of life, though in the case of abortion, there is no morality in rationalizing you are protecting the potential child (and mother) from future suffering when the child has no choice in the matter. Even the mother cannot be sure of the future outcome of a child born into poverty, danger, or other suffering. Many have pulled themselves from these dark places and unfortunate beginnings to demonstrate the value of human life in the best way imaginable: to make something from nothing."

valid rune
#

It's at an in between state, more than just a pair of gametes, not yet "baked" discrete and individual human

valid rune
#

Condoms, hormones, IUD, surgery etc

errant cove
#

Fine, my main argument was don't kill babys

valid rune
#

And I contend that no one is

#

I'm also not forcing anyone to have any operation

#

You done HAVE to have an abortion any more than you HAVE to get a vasectomy

#

But neither is killing babies

#

Both are simple contraceptive outpatient procedures

errant cove
#

How is abortion not killing a child?

valid rune
#

Again, it's not a kid, it's an under developed fetus. It may not even make it.
You have no proof that the pregnancy could end in miscarriage.
Until the 26-30 week range it's just an extension of the mother's life.

errant cove
#

I guess you have no proof anyoen can develop cancer and die suddenly

valid rune
#

Additionally, making abortions illegal doesn't stop them from happening, we tried that for several hundred years. It just makes them more dangerous

valid rune
#

Until such time as they can be separated and the fetus goes on to fully develope it is not a discrete life form

#

Just an extension of the mother

#

To get metaphysical for a second, the soul isn't done downloading

#

Not yet a full human life

#

As we've already established stopping something from being created is not the same as killing something

echo musk
echo musk
errant cove
#

Cant say i do

echo musk
#

It was created in the mid 1800's, and immediately used to assert that the darker-skinned races were degenerated from lighter skin races. Nazis used it to attack and destroy those who created what they considered to have anti-Nazi ideals. It has been used to try to enforce a narrow and "puritan" mindset onto the broad of society in recent years, or at least, express contempt for it.

#

Like who are you to say your moral standings are enough to condemn what two consensual adults do? Why do you care if people sleep around?

errant cove
#

oh I'm sorry, I would hate for something I said to imply anything like that, Ill come out and say it. Discrimation = bad, Slavery = bad, baby murder = bad

#

I dont care if people sleep around, but easy access to abortion encoruages sleeping around which causes more abortions

echo musk
errant cove
#

I have 0 problem with what 2 consenting adults do, screw until your toes fall off, idc

echo musk
errant cove
#

Sry, kill a baby*

echo musk
#

By calling abortion murder you are entirely junping the gun

#

Say you have a nephew who's just been born, and they need a blood transfusion. You're the only match. Should the government be able to step in and make you give some of your blood to your baby nephew?

errant cove
#

The gov should not be able to, but thats because I hate authority. I would glady give my blood to help a baby

#

But not giving someone medical treatment is not activly killing them, throughout most of human history things like that have been impossible

echo musk
#

I didn't ask what you would gladly do. I asked if you think the government should be able to tell you what you have to do with your body.

errant cove
#

no

echo musk
#

And you said no, it shouldn't be able to make you give part of your body up, even if it meant sparing a baby

#

That's all abortion is. Abortion is the to-be-parent deciding "No, I no longer want to use my body to keep this baby alive." But you are advocating for the government to be able to step in and say "You have to use your body to keep this baby alive."

errant cove
#

Well you shouldn't have the right to kill someone

echo musk
#

If you're not giving the baby your blood, then you are effectively killing them, no?

valid rune
echo musk
#

By not saving them, you are allowing them to die

valid rune
#

As I outlined, abortion < vasectomy

echo musk
#

Now, you say you would give the baby your blood. But let's say I'm more concerned about my long term health? What will this do to me in the future? and these reservations cause me to say "No thank you, I don't want to give the baby a blood transfusion." Should the government be able to step in and say "Oh well, it's saving a life. You don't get to choose to let a baby die."

valid rune
#

Neither are murder

lyric forge
#

If it were actually about the baby, "pro-lifers" would also spend effort doing a much better job of funding the medical costs of low-income pregnant mothers.

#

Funnily, I suspect that would also reduce abortions.

errant cove
#

This conversation has been awesome, and I thank you all for keeping it peaceful and I feel like we had some meaningful dialogue, I think fundamentally we will just disagree where life starts

#

along with a few other things

lyric forge
#

Like the right to control your own body?

errant cove
#

Its someone elses body but ok

echo musk
#

The thing is, it's not about whete life starts

#

Can you please answer my question

echo musk
lyric forge
#

The mother's body is the mother's body. She has the right to decide what happens to that body.

echo musk
#

Because by not giving my blood, I'm also passively killing a baby

errant cove
#

Whats the exact question, Im sorry im dumb, there were a few question marks in there, what is the prescice question?

echo musk
#

I don't want to give my blood to save my nephew. Should I be forced to, or should I be allowed to kill my nephew by keeping my blood to myself

errant cove
#

Yes you should be allowed, but thats a terrible thing for you to do

lyric forge
#

Then why isn't the mother allowed to do that?

echo musk
#

Okay, cool. We agree on the legality of bodily autonomy

errant cove
#

Because killing a child is not the same thing as government body harvesting

lyric forge
#

It is though

echo musk
#

That is not what's happening

#

I thought we'd agree we'd stop using "murder"

lyric forge
#

The consequences are the same: dead baby

#

the violated rights are the same: bodily autonomy

#

how is it different?

errant cove
#

One is a baby developing in thier mothers womb, and the other is a baby needing a body part of another human through a medical procedure

echo musk
#

Is the government forcing the mother to sacrifice health and resources to grow another person not body harvesting?

lyric forge
#

The baby is literally taking blood directly from the mother.

echo musk
#

And a lot more

lyric forge
#

If you have a right to say "You can't have my blood" then so does the mother.

errant cove
#

Becuase thats how babys work, they need resources from their mother

#

thats biology

echo musk
#

That's how some blood diseases work. They need aid from an external body

#

That's biological

#

What gives me the right to kill my baby nephew because I don't want to be forced to forfeit some of my blood?

errant cove
#

The right for you to choose what to do

lyric forge
#

So why can't the mother choose?

echo musk
#

So why don't I get that right if I have a fetus inside me

errant cove
#

Becuase you can't kill a child because its inconvient for you

#

not donating blood is not murder

echo musk
#

Both are resulting in a life no longer living because I didn't want to share resources

lyric forge
#

You just said you could

errant cove
#

sorry not murder*

#

even thought thats basically the definiton

echo musk
errant cove
#

You are not a donor, you are the childs mother

lyric forge
#

How does that change any rights?

errant cove
#

Because the child also has rights

echo musk
#

I can donate my blood and my nephew can live free, but I don't and now my nephew dies

lyric forge
#

Yes, in both cases

echo musk
#

Where is my nephew's right to life? Don't you care about him?

errant cove
#

Ive answered this 3 times already

echo musk
#

Like it's just a little blood. I won't even be inconvenienced by it, far less than I would carrying a fetus to term

errant cove
#

im agreeing to disagree

lyric forge
#

No you haven't

echo musk
#

But for some reason you are fine letting me kill my nephew

errant cove
#

You're nephew does not have the right to anyones blood, your child inside you has a right to not be killed

echo musk
#

My nephew has a right to life too though, doesn't he?

errant cove
lyric forge
#

They both have the same rights.

#

You still haven't explained the difference.

errant cove
#

i HAVE...

#

sry caps

echo musk
errant cove
#

So now we're comparing abortion to the trolley problem?

echo musk
#

Not the trolley problem 🤦‍♀️

lyric forge
#

So if you just choke off the blood supply to a fetus, but don't kill it, that's OK?

errant cove
echo musk
#

No?

#

The mother just doesn't want to share her blood

errant cove
#

I'm sorry the mother wants to kill her child

echo musk
#

How do you know?

lyric forge
#

And you want to kill the nephew?

errant cove
#

you just said that

#

You are twisting my words, I need a break

echo musk
#

We gave you a hypothetical. The mother doesn't want the fetus to die, but has no interest in letting it have her blood.

errant cove
#

i answered the question 3-4 times, scroll up

lyric forge
#

You are being a hypocrit and thus are having to twist your own words to avoid acknowledging it.

echo musk
#

It's sad, but the government shouldn't be allowed to harvest our bodies for the life of another

errant cove
#

if you dont like my answer, thats ok

errant cove
echo musk
#

You called it that

errant cove
#

scroll up

echo musk
#

You called having to share bodily resources to save the life of another person "Body harvesting".

lyric forge
#

No keeping the child alive is the government body harvesting, obviously

echo musk
#

Oh, right, of course

lyric forge
#

The only non-hypocritical explanation is that you either think the baby has more rights than the child, or the mother has less than you do.

echo musk
#

Lots seems to believe the child has more rights within the womb than outside of it

lyric forge
#

Yet the former is nonsensical and most people won't admit openly to believing the later.

echo musk
#

No, a person doesn't have to give up blood to save a baby outside of their body, but they do have to let a different baby use their body as an incubator against their consent

errant cove
#

And this is why I'm no longer Pro choice. When you are pro choice you need to jump through hurdle after hurdle of mental gymnastics and strawman arguments to keep justifying to yourself why it is Ok to kill children. A few months- a year ago i realized how much easier it is to be "pro life", everything just rolls off the tongue and its much easier to defend the life of innocent children from the misdoings of their parents. As a libertarian I always supported bodily autonomy but always felt bad inside when it came to abortion, and I always felt like I had to keep justifying it until the day i realized I don't have, and I know that's why Pro choice people feel as strongly as they do, it takes a lot to justify child life ending because if they ever accept it as that, they realize how awful it is. I 100% understand all your arguments because I use to fight for them, but I gave up. I respect all you guys for fighting for what you believe in but theres a few fundemental differnce which we all talked about that we just won't understand. I need to step away, I answerd the same question phrased 4-5 different ways and it started to make my head hurt but no big deal. Thank you for the conversation.

#

I am also more abolitionist of abortion than I am pro choice as well.

echo musk
#

Yeah, when you're pro-life you can just pull out false equivalencies and call it a day

#

Also please don't speak for me. You don't know my story, or how I feel, or why I feel passionately about this. That's incredibly condescending

hard igloo
#

It's not only the opposition who has biases

supple ivy
# valid rune It is more valuable to society for a young mother who doesn't want the child, to...

Is value an arbitrary thing that humans can only accumulate? Because I believe that an ordinary fetus has Truly Neutral value. It’s by our Grace and Humanity that we presume any random baby will be a valuable member of society. How can a baby possibly suck? They do baby things, and that is it. It’s the people who grow up and ruin other people’s lives that are least valuable, because they produce a negative impact instead of a baby that we Know isn’t necessarily positive but could be. I don’t dislike your point of view, because I do understand what you are using in it to proof for young women being less valuable to us as single mothers when they can’t access abortion. 100% correct. It isn’t a horrific objectification of people either, it’s very matter of fact and fair to address the productivity of women with children, with a good pinch of the disbelief in how much audacity we have to “count the beans of infants and their value” versus “we aren’t gonna lose anything special, and if we do we’d never know anyway, right?”

#

!!It’s a perfectly fine thing to kill the damn babies. It doesn’t matter if they’re born either. Only difference is the father has a 9 month grace period after the birth, where he can decide to cull his progeny for a more powerful heir. !!Or maybe we can just abort Paternal Responsibility? (The !!’ism is Facetiousness, endorsing a better compromise for men who want reproductive independence as well!)

valid rune
#

Only through 5-15 years of investment in them do they gain value

errant cove
supple ivy
valid rune
#

This is why I say that a 17 year old has almost infinitely more value than a 17 week old

#

They are able bodies capable of doing physical and mental labour.

#

Where as the baby is a loud poop factory that provides no value.

#

And actively makes the parents less productive members of society

#

Through sleep deprivation and resource extraction

supple ivy
# valid rune They are able bodies capable of doing physical and mental labour.

The labor I perform is pretty sad and I think it harms society. But I still do it. I think instead of Value, what we’re describing is Value Potential. A baby can’t do anything but it does have value. This value does not increase for a long time, and it can be easily decreasing as well. I take it back when I said babies can’t suck. They do suck. They basically all do. But the baby can’t actually take agency of itself, and as I’ve said, are we measuring our humanity out in rations at this point, or are we just not considering the nature of feticide as a routine procedure to be symbolic of any negative motion whatsoever? Is abortion Pure Good to you, or a necessary evil with good economic utilities to boot?

valid rune
#

Abortion is no different in my eyes to a vasectomy

#

I've said that many times

#

If anything vasectomy is more extreme because it actively requires reversal before you can conceive again

#

An egg is not a chicken

#

It may have the potential to be a chicken

#

But it's not a chicken yet

#

A fetus is not a distinct human being for several months ths

#

Abortion is not murder

#

No lives lost

#

Stopping something from being made is not the same as destroying something

#

Not protecting something is not the same as destroying something

echo musk
supple ivy
supple ivy
# valid rune But it's not a chicken yet

The egg comes before the chicken naturally. It’s not even a paradox, what came first? The egg came first. Whatever laid that egg was the chicken’s ancestor, and the hypothetical Egg was just the finishing mutation of the red jungle fowl.

supple ivy
# valid rune If anything vasectomy is more extreme because it actively requires reversal befo...

Vasectomy, that’s the one, or is it? As it compares to the social reality, since I concede the rubric of Political Argument, regarding “Paternal Abandonment” as a contention between the Abortion and the Vasectomy as medical reproductive autonomy, it’s a winning argument to say vasectomy supersedes the desire of men to retain fertility while not making a commitment to their offspring. I’m giving away a point in other words, and pivoting to emphasize a social inequality.. as follows:

#

Should men be expected to have a vasectomy to control their reproduction? The answer is logically yes, but emotionally I still speak for the right to NOT have a vasectomy, and to have freedom from the mandates of fatherhood instead. To abolish the supposed collectivized benefits of mandatory child support and alimony, and to let men be liberated from the primitive patriarchy that binds them as well. Nobody needs men to raise their children, right? Men are consigned to the dump heap fairly regularly, we’re useless jerks who don’t do anything right. Why should we enforce fatherhood, besides for the social order, which is Moot in the face of overwhelming disorder.

echo musk
echo musk
# supple ivy Should men be expected to have a vasectomy to control their reproduction? The an...

I dunno what the deal is with MRA talking points coming and blustering into a discussion about the universal right to bodily autonomy. I feel like there should be a separate thread.And as for your bit about men being uselss, I wouldn't be so harsh on yourself. There are heaps of good men and wonderful fathers, and were you to apply yourself, I'm certain you could strive for that as well 🙂 Putting yourself down does nothing for anyone

errant cove
# echo musk How am _I_ being disrespectful? Lots is content to imply that pro-choicers "know...

I didn't try to assume your story, I feel bad for whatever you went through and hope things get better for you. I try to care about everyone because every single person is unique and has their own experience's and story to tell, I try to listen to them all to form my own opinion. Alot of the talk, not necessary by you was about how fetuses aren't human, the entire point of that debate is to dehumanize the child and let people thinks its okay to kill them, that's the entire thing I disagree with. But I now see we have entered the "I'm a victim so I'm right, so shut up" point of this discussion, which means this has bricked walled and is now over. I did enjoy the beginning up until I was trying to understand both sides of the argument, try to argue my side while having non stop straw mans thrown at me and no matter how many times I gave my honest answer I was gaslit into thinking I didn't.

#

I'm done now, ty

valid rune
# errant cove I didn't try to *assume* your story, I feel bad for whatever you went through an...

Alot of the talk, not necessary by you was about how fetuses aren't human, the entire point of that debate is to dehumanize the child and let people thinks its okay to kill them, that's the entire thing I disagree with.

That's where options differ. I never said it wasn't human, and I don't think anyone was arguing that. What I was making the distinction about was that it wasn't it's own human.

#

It's not murder to remove someone's kidney in an operation

#

That kidney is still human

#

But it's not AN HUMAN

#

The fetus, in my view, is an extention of the mothers body, until such time as they can be separated and the fetus grows and develops of its own accord.

#

I've tried to illustrate that in as many different ways as possible.

#

For me, it is an over simplification, and no logical basis to say "Yep, conception, sperm + egg, bam New Human"

#

2 cells with human DNA is not a human being

#

Much like 2 bricks is not a home

supple ivy
# echo musk I dunno what the deal is with MRA talking points coming and blustering into a di...

I’m a ridiculously successful thief, as far as applying myself goes I’ve never done it once. We’re still off topic here, this is connected to MRA bullshit because the question of Paternal Abandonment is validated by feticide as a mandate. Do men have a right to bodily autonomy as well, or is a vasectomy their only option? The collectivist answer is Yes, the Individualist should answer No. Abortion Proper should be legal via legitimate democracy, not federal intervention. That’s beyond discussion.

valid rune
#

It's not just a female topic

#

It has much greater implications to men, women, trans etc. etc.

#

To give up just because the conversation is no longer about your body parts is narcissistic and narrow minded

valid rune
#

Vasectomy isn't THE ONLY way, in fact it's not even guarenteed.

#

There are many forms of contraception, and there is also a great route called "a health stable relationship "

#

With logical caring adults

supple ivy
valid rune
#

Another way I described it, for the theists is "the soul isn't done downloading"

#

I really liked that one

#

It's getting towards being a new human, but it's not there yet

#

The mother is adding those bricks as fast as biology will allow, but it cannot be rushed

#

And I think we gave concensus that inaction and/or stopping something from happening is not the same as destroying something that is finished

#

What this debate is fundamentally about is where that finish line is

#

For some it's contraception entirely "Condoms are a sin"

Others is conception, "Sperm + egg = new human"

Some go further and say, "I can make exceptions for rape, or health reasons"

I'm in the fuzzy zone around 3rd trimester, where we have medical evidence we can keep the baby alive without the mother.

Others still set farther, all the way to birth.

I've even seen textualists that talk about scripture saying that it's after 1 year of life. That's when taxes were due or something of the sort.

echo musk
echo musk
# errant cove I didn't try to *assume* your story, I feel bad for whatever you went through an...

I'm not right because I'm the victim. I don't even see myself as a victim. Nor have I told anyone to shut up. And how do you know I've gone through anything at all related to this topic? If you had asked to learn instead of apologize for... idk what, then maybe I wouldn't have asked you not to assume things about my story are worth apologizing for.

I have not once strawmanned you. I have provided an example as to which you have failed to clarify why you have different answers for strikingly similar questions. I understand that talkng to two people at once is a bit much, so I'm not accusing you of intentionally doing anything. If you ever want to clarify as to why a baby outside the womb has less of a right to life than one inside the womb, I will be eagerly awaiting that moment.

echo musk
rough zephyr
supple ivy
clear tundra
#

Keep it respectful please or I'll close the thread for the night, not interested in babysitting a discussion that should be civil, respectful, and free of insults

rough zephyr
#

I’m sorry, but I have never seen someone with this point of view it’s crazy for me.

supple ivy
supple ivy
rough zephyr
supple ivy
echo musk
echo musk
# rough zephyr Hahaha ur a joke

It's kinda sad that instead of trying to understand people's different points of views, you laugh and belittle those which don't line up with yours. :/

clear tundra
#

Also we already shut down one thread here in regards to transgender people due to TOS violations, don't make us have to close this one as well

echo musk
#

Do I wanna know?

clear tundra
#

No probably not; discord also isn't straight forward about what it deems "hateful speech" so saying you dont support the lgbtq community is sort of a sticky situation when it comes to discrimination based on sexuality in the tos

echo musk
#

Just out here tryna live me life 😭

clear tundra
#

Eh this discussion is generally fine just probably tread lightly around those things and don't insult each other

#

that is all

rough zephyr
clear tundra
echo musk
#

It's a website, not a country

rough zephyr
#

Yeah what was I thinkin

#

😹

clear tundra
#

yeah pete loves freedom of speech don't get me wrong but we can't threaten his server by breaking tos here

#

he stepped in on the other thread before it got shut down, and I dont want him to have to take his time to have to step in here as well

#

we can all be civil, right?

rough zephyr
#

Right

echo musk
#

And as someone in a lesbian relationship I for one highly appreciate the bid to at least somewhat limit the spread of hateful speech on the app ❤️

clear tundra
supple ivy
# echo musk Instead of assuming why I said things, you could have asked me why I said the th...

It’s seen, I understand your point. My ‘tirade’, as I put it, For U, is that the worst possible interpretation I shouldn’t make about you is that you would be subconsciously blind to my ideas, and start throwing alternative branches of discussion to alleviate the discomfort of a Real question. Why should men (/women) be expected to provide child support to a child they never ever wanted? Even a woman could feasibly not want her child but, to meet the father’s wishes, be willing to give Birth to it. Could she not be allowed to do this, and then forsake the entire familial unit, without being expected to financially support the single father of her child?

echo musk
supple ivy
#

And this is abortion relative. It is related to reproductive autonomy because 18 years of obligation is a lifetime.

echo musk
#

Also, for what it's worth, there have been cases where an absentee mother has paid child support

#

Child support is not a gendered issue. A single present parent can bid for and will typically receive financial aid to help them raise the child that the absent parent helped create

supple ivy
#

It’s relevant AND contingent to making compromise with the MRA advocates. Absentee mothers paying child support is equally in suspense, because that is fair.

#

Well that’s great, I’m glad you see it as belonging here.

echo musk
#

I don't, so I won't partake

#

But I also can't stop you

supple ivy
#

Fair I do the same thing with words. Maybe I’ll just ignore your last statement and quote you for saying I can discuss it here. 😂

echo musk
#

Bye

supple ivy
#

I got the scoop!

#

Because that’s yellow journalism haha. Aside from this, and aside from Men. The notion of the 10 year old R victim as the obscenity of the left, it’s all too fair for me to paint the obscenity of the prolifers with the same brush. The use of the propaganda by the anti-abortion extremists, to speak. When they publish photographs of fully developed fetuses, the depiction of a fetus that resembles a baby, and they represent this as the thing that abortion is targeted towards? If I am clear. The thing is, abortion is better off early. I don’t like a late second trimester abortion, I strongly dislike the third. I would hate if abortion up to the point of near birth was where the development went. It would simultaneously be Dark and Distasteful, as well as validating the extremist propaganda that wants people to think abortion is killing a 9 months developed fetus, if it is not done infrequently let alone at all. TL;DR I wouldn’t vote for late stage abortion strategists, I resent this notion.

rocky sky
#

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Anti-abortion violence

Anti-abortion violence is violence committed against individuals and organizations that perform abortions or provide abortion counseling. Incidents of violence have included destruction of property, including vandalism; crimes against people, including kidnapping, stalking, assault, attempted murder, and murder; and crimes affecting both people ...

#

While we're on the topic

supple ivy
rocky sky
#

It just goes to show there's a portion of pro lifers, be it small or large, that have more unsavory agendas other than "saving lives," be it bigotry, hate, or some notions about "societal degeneracy" or some nonsense

supple ivy
# rocky sky It just goes to show there's a portion of pro lifers, be it small or large, that...

Book definition of bigotry is the obstinate, unreasonable opposition to ideas, and I think that prolifer extremists are not simply and unreasonably rejecting the idea here. In other words, it’s not bigotry to me. They can understand the idea and still decide it is a hard line worth fighting for. I contradict myself again, I despise the anti abortion violence BUT I can absolutely see where it comes from and how to rationalize it. It wouldn’t necessarily be bigotry, because you could accept the ideas of pro choice advocacy as a logical thing that should still be spiritually battled. It sucks, but it’s true. Or is it not to you? Is it really really unreasonable to believe that it is Babies, not merely Fetuses, which are being killed? Spare me anybody who would say “they are fetuses not babies” I know already. This is the devil’s advocate. “Killing people because you think they are ritually sacrificing aborted fetuses to Moloch is absurd and a bigoted thing. But killing people because they are practitioners in systemic infanticide is not always so unreasonable as to be bigotry to me. I can see what makes a crazy person brim with homicidal fervor for a doctor who performs thousands of abortions. It needs to be prevented for damn sure. But there a kernel of truth I see in this, worth mentioning to me.

rocky sky
#

What you're not taking into account, and what i had in mind, is those people who use abortion as a trojan horse of sorts. There are those who wouldn't be as radical if it wasn't for their sexism. Some may pretend what they are commiting these acts of violence for is their belief that abortion is murder, but are being disingenuous, either deliberately or subconsciously. To say that they all commit violence forthe sole reason you stated is not realistic

#

Some people are just sexist

supple ivy
#

I cut to say that your point is good, Damn Good. Some people just want to control women and violently too. Them

#

Now, consider this! Hell, there are probably not a small number of former abortion clinicians who will grow into a deep opposition of abortion. Imagine a hypothetical child whose dream is to be an abortion practitioner. They would live a lifetime spent in a sterile, medical environment that makes work of abortion. The desensitization that coroners and morticians experience is one of life’s regular brutalities. The things that can be said around a dead body are hideous and obscene but it isn’t as though a morgue can be debated the way abortion can.

#

So it’s like, I don’t want the violence against abortion period. I can see why my own straw man hypotheticals work, but I can also see how you are describing the much more realistic form of assholes who want control.

#

It’s like I ought not to provide the justification but there I went and did, I believe that KillPete is a really great place because I can do that.

rocky sky
#

You're right, and i definitely don't consider this violence to strengthen my own arguement or detract from genuine pro life arguments, it's just as you said, it's an ugly part of the reality of the situation we must deal with

supple ivy
#

Thanks for that, it means the most.

hard igloo
#

I think the only thing we have established here is that we cannot agree on what constitutes a life and the inherent value (good or bad) of that life. This being a fundamental question as to the legality of abortion, keeps us from having a common viewpoint on what abortion actually is.

With this in mind, how ought we legislate abortion then? If these fundamental disagreements are not proof enough of the necessity to keep this issue from being federally mandated in either direction, I do not know what else is. The legislation on abortion should be made at the state level. There should never have been federal protection for abortion. If you do not like the laws in the state you are in, you are free to move to another state.

I personally do not want to live in a state that protects abortion up to the point of birth, neither do I believe some of you want to live in a state that restricts abortion at all. This is how you govern a population that has such diversity of philosophies such as the US.

lilac pilot
echo musk
#

The only instances of this are in medical emergencies where the mother's life is at risk

#

If you have carried a pregnancy to the third trimester, you are wanting to keep that baby in the insurmountable majority of the time

echo musk
#

I will cede that a fetus is as human as I am. But just like I don't have a right to demand someone sacrifice even an insignificant amount of their body so that I may live, neither does a fetus

valid rune
#

Or baby due tomorrow

#

Stats fyi

#

Like I have said repeatedly, those 99% of abortions were before my definition of distinct life separate from the mother. Therefore, safe medical procedures should not be government restricted.

#

They are not classified as killing or murdered

#

They are separate and distinct

#

We have agreed on that above

#

As I have also said, the line of where that new life starts is grey and fuzzy. It changes based on location, medical advancement etc.

#

But we can easily bound that window. Very clearly 32 weeks is near universal survival, and very clearly <22 weeks is 0 survival.

image0.jpg
#

So if we choose that 20 week figure the CDC put out. 99% of abortions happen 3 weeks before even the faintest hope of survival

#

And what remains in that 1% are medically related to mothers health, which most, if not all of you have already agreed to, anything approaching that boundary is already a tough decision for the mother and would require extensive consultation with medical professionals.

#

With all that said, where is the issues?

#

Please substantiate your positions for fear of not bringing anything new to the conversation

rocky sky
#

From what they've said before, i understand that Grenleo ises the biological definition of human life

#

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

Life

Life is a quality that distinguishes matter that has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from matter that does not, and is defined by the capacity for growth, reaction to stimuli, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction. Various forms of life exist, such as plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea,...

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And I'm not a biologist, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure a fetus, before the 20th week, fully embodies this definition

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Does it have homeostasis, growth, adaptation or reproduction?

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The first trimester almost certainly does not fit that definition

hard igloo
hard igloo
hard igloo
valid rune
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Likewise into the 3rd trimester it would be more of an early cesarean, not an abortion.

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Because, we live in a modern world where that is the more viable option and it won't bankrupt anyone involved

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Adoption is also free

hard igloo
# rocky sky Does it have homeostasis, growth, adaptation or reproduction?
  1. A fetus most certainly maintains homeostasis as that is required of the physiology of human cells for ion transport, cellular maintenance, etc., 2) an embryo is constantly growing while in the uterus (cellular growth and division), 3) adaptation really concerns the population- or species-level genetic adaptations but you can assume that the fetus has evolved via adaptation, and 4) the fetus is in a different stage of development than the reproductive stage of life--just as a pre-pubescent child cannot reproduce until the reproductive organs have fully formed.
echo musk
hard igloo
echo musk
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The fetus is using another's body without consent

valid rune
echo musk
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That is where the conflicts of rights comes in. You believe that someone else's right to life supercedes another's right to bodily autonomy

valid pelican
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We have no current way to feed an embyo outside of the mother's womb. test tube babies?

echo musk
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Those still utilize a womb???

valid pelican
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a mother's womb though?

valid rune
valid pelican
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Im not sure Im informed enough to be piping up tbf therea54BLITZ

echo musk
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It's a fertility treatment

valid rune
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An embryo is dependent uniquely on the womb it implants on until the 23-30th month

valid pelican
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Im dumb, yeah test tube baby is just IVF! I back down 🙂

valid rune
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Not dumb, just learning

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Ask any questions you want

echo musk
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Nothing wrong with learning 🙂

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Just don't trivialize other people's opinions, like calling them "silly", for instance, and we'll all be a-okay

hard igloo
# valid rune 1. It doesn't maintain it, the mother does. We have no current way to feed an em...

1.) The cells of the fetus independently maintain cellular homeostasis, the flow of nutrients does come from the mother's blood but these are two distinct processes
2.) True, the mother supports the growth of the fetus as the mother supports the growth of a child after birth as well
3.) It's human already and the genetic material has already been combined from the parent's gametes to have distinct DNA in the fetus
4.) True, and even further it will never develop to the reproductive stage if it is aborted

valid rune
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If I die so do they

hard igloo
valid rune
valid rune
hard igloo
valid rune
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The embryo doesn't have body autonomy

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The mother does

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QED

hard igloo
valid rune
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+99% of the time zero

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See the above graph

hard igloo
valid rune
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???

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You prove my point

hard igloo
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If you abort a fetus, It has virtually no chance of survival

valid rune
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No 99% of the time it has zero chabce

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Not it has a 1% change of living

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It can never be a living being

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It was not independent life

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You still need response to me with fact

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How can it be independent life if it cannot survive without a specific human

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Not ANY human

hard igloo
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I'm confused at your claim possibly. Are you pointing to the effectiveness of abortion at preventing the survival of the fetus?

valid rune
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The specific mother

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No, that is survival of ANY embryo, premature birth or otherwise

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So, for example, if the mother has a heart attack at 21 weeks, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to make that embryo into a living human being

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It was never it's own life form

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It did not develop far enough

hard igloo
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I think we are continuing to get hung up in the same place in our reasoning. I see the distinction you make between a fetus being supported by one specific being versus multiple beings as arbitrary. You seem to see my argument as equally flawed.

I think it is fair to agree to disagree here which is what my point was on legislating abortion. Hopefully anyone else reading this discussion can get something from each of us.

I gotta go back to work now, but it's been good talking with you all.

valid rune
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Because you can't. You have no basis for it being an independent life form because intrinsically it is dependent not on ANY human help, but the specific life of the unique mother

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That's the whole premise of body autonomy

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The mother has it, we've agreed to that. However you cannot prove that the fetus is a stand alone human life.
Yet you insist that the embryo supersedes the mother

echo musk
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Yes or no please

valid rune
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I'd argue that that question is poorly worded. I would shut the guillotine if it meant saving someone's life at the cost of your arm.

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But I don't think your body autonomy is less valuable than CREATING a life

echo musk
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Do you think the government should be able to force me to amputate my own arm to save another person's life?

valid rune
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Not to save them, but as a consequence of saving them, yes.
A Firefighter would face no reproductions if they let your arm fall off to save someone else from a wreck

echo musk
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Not what I'm asking

valid rune
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I don't think we should be harvesting people organs etc

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But I do agree that there is a hierarchy of responsibility a government has for the public

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And your arm is less valuable than someone else's life

echo musk
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Okay, so you agree that my choice to do what I will with my body should not be interfered with by someone else's right to life

valid rune
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Yes, I've agreed to that premise this entire time

echo musk
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cool

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I didn't think you didn't btw, just clarifying my question

valid rune
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I also agree that triage is important, and saving someone's life is more important than your arm

echo musk
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I'm not talking about triage tho

valid rune
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This is why I said your statement was poorly worded

echo musk
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But I'm not asking which is more important

valid rune
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A doctor should not be forced to give you an abortion if they are tied up doing heart surgery

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Just because you got in line first

echo musk
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I am asking at what point do we advocate for the surrender of personal rights to the rights of the collective

valid rune
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So you believe that my right to my body is superceded by another's right to life

I refute this, as per my above example

echo musk
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No, you're not talking about rights

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I am talking about the right to privacy of the individual against the right to life of the collective

valid rune
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I am, the heart patient has the right to life and that supercedes your right to an abortion

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That is an exact replied of your statement

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Life > body autonomy

echo musk
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Technically, in the US, neither of those rights are guaranteed to the point that treatment has to exist

echo musk
valid rune
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And again, I'm not disputing that, I'm only illustrating the flaw in your phrasing

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They are asking for a service. 2 patients, 1 doctor, only time for 1

echo musk
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Yes? I get your analogy

valid rune
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In such a case, the life of someone else supercedes your right to body autonomy

echo musk
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No

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That is not the same

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My bodily autonomy is not being violated by the heart patient

valid rune
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It is word for word what you WROTE. Maybe not what you intended, but what you WROTE.

echo musk
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I know what I wrote. I also know that you're not applying the anology correctly for it to be 1:1

valid rune
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You are being forced to carry the baby by budget constraints, legislation etc. which did not ensure your access to healthcare

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This is why I said you should rephrase the statement

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That is all

echo musk
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You are talking about access to medical care

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I am talking about two people.

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One with a body, another who needs that body

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I understand where you're coming from, do you have any recommendations for the rephrasing?

valid rune
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So you believe that my right to my body is superceded by the creation of a life

echo musk
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I believe the right to privacy should not be limited to the creation of life though

valid rune
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Explain, I don't fully understand what you mean

echo musk
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I don't want a fetus or a person in need of a blood transfusion to be able to use my body without my permission

valid rune
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I think that would depend on what you agreed to then

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If you agreed to blood donation and plans were made I think you may be liable for damages.

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If harm or death came to the other person

noble scarab
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Abortion should be legal. 100%. This is my answer, I haven’t scrolled up yet

valid rune
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It get grey very quickly

echo musk
valid rune
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When you are talking about life

echo musk
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I am saying the government should not be allow to make me use my body for a fetus or for a blood transfusion

valid rune
echo musk
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I don't know the law enough to say one way or another

echo musk
valid rune
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This is why fetus no, because it's not A Life

But blood / organ donation, grey, but not equivalent due to the availability of multiple donors

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I don't think you should be able to ask for your kidney back

echo musk
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That's why I get out of the grey by using hypotheticals

valid rune
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Thats where I get stuck