Which porn do you watch?

[vernal pine]

Which Porn does @rich herald watch?

[urban anvil]

👩🏼👩🏻‍🦰💩🥤

[midnight bison]

Truly a topic worthy of philosophical discussion

[cyan trellis]

This is a man of culture

[vernal pine]

🫙

[urban anvil]

Omfggg I’m dead

My soul has left my body

[cyan trellis]

🛁👧

[urban anvil]

…

[cyan trellis]

🍋🥳🎉

[cyan trellis]

LOL it was a reference to a shock thing akin to 2g1c only less shocking and much older

🐐 🇸 🇪

Same time period as that one

[rich herald]

Furry

But in all seriousness I don't think Porn is all that ethically compromised

Humans do a litany of other things that are just as bad or worse

[vernal pine]

Everybody’s got their vice

[humble shuttle]

Ehh depends. Porn is a heavily systemic issue. Most major platforms that deal in it (pornhub and its litany of branches) are incredibly manipulative and exploitative. They prey on vulnerable people, propel a ton of the business in sex trafficking, and do little to care for their workers if not directly involving them in drugs which are often then abused as self medication to cope with the abuse at the hands of the predators who run and operate the business. And this is all not to mention the general horribleness of porns effect on the mind, its objectification of bodies, mainly women, as well as promotion of poor and unhealthy practices and stereotypes.
With more self entrepreneur stuff such as onlyfans I think theres a little more wiggle room, though there still is systemic issues at play. I mean what does it say about society and about ourselves that it is often a lucrative decision to do sex work? I guess that speaks to the immoral nature of our society at large when poor people have to resort to selling their bodies to make ends meet. Instead of exploitation by predatory people, its exploitation by a predatory society. But yeah when it comes to truly self-motivated and chosen sex work it’s definitely not the worst thing in the world.

[cyan trellis]

I mean what does it say about society and about ourselves that it is often a lucrative decision to do physical work? I guess that speaks to the immoral nature of our society at large when poor people have to resort to selling their bodies to make ends meet.
I mean what does it say about society and about ourselves that it is often a lucrative decision to do mental work? I guess that speaks to the immoral nature of our society at large when poor people have to resort to selling their minds to make ends meet.
All work can be exploited. Sex work can be non-exploitative.
And saying that there are systemic issues in a field does not make the field itself bad.
There are systemic issues in the construction industry.
There are systemic issues in IT, especially the helpdesk.
There are systemic issues in the entertainment industry. ("Normal" movies are arguably more exploitative than porn for more groups of people)
I think pete is absolutely correct that Porn in and of itself isn't ethically compromised and that people do plenty of other things that are just as bad or worse and would even expand that point to say that the overwhelming majority of ethical compromises in porn are not indicative of porn but rather ethical compromises in general that happen to also be present in the porn industry.

[humble shuttle]

I agree that all work is exploitative, don’t get me wrong, thats kind of the point. But at least there is societal benefit to construction or IT work, and you cannot compare the industries. Construction workers don’t have their life expectancy halved or more. I certainly consider financial crimes (while still evil) lesser than physical crimes so despite all businesses riding up against illegal bullshit (construction often related to extortion or money laundering) its not the equivalent to sex trafficking and systemic rape.
The thing is construction can be a positive on its own without the bounds of capitalism. Working in technology... well thats a little more complicated due to the interrelatedness of capitalism and technology... but either way fixing things is not bad outside of capitalism. Sex work, specifically porn in this case where you have the viewer added into the equation, is a negative no matter if you have systemic issues or not. Hell it hopefully won’t exist without capitalism. Sex should remain sex, it should be completely voluntary and consensual with no outside pressure or power dynamics influencing it. I think thats pretty agreeable. That cannot happen with sex work. And all of this is not to mention the numerous, provable consequences of viewing porn. It is rare something else besides drugs is that bad for you on a mental level.
Again there are other terrible things out there, our whole society is fucked up, but that doesn’t somehow excuse porn or make it any less terrible for you. Are there worse things? Sure. But that doesn’t somehow give it a free pass. Its provably terrible for you and it is fundamentally wrong.

[urban anvil]

Bro wtf y’all thinking to deep into this shit

It is just videos of ppl nude like…

Lmao

[cyan trellis]

Yes why have deep philosophical conversations in a philosophy forum

[cyan trellis]

That is beyond reductive

[urban anvil]

Lol the channel is a joke

And even so what is so deep about porn 💀

[cyan trellis]

If you read the previous posts with the intent of understanding the content instead of to mock you'd have been able to see some evidence of some of the deeper conversation such as what goes into the production that can have very real impact on very real people.

[urban anvil]

Bro chill I’m not mocking nobody

[cyan trellis]

No more so than any other thread in this forum

[urban anvil]

I’m half joking anyways

Just pointing out that it’s funny that y’all think so deep into shit idk

I do it too sometimes

Jezuz

[humble shuttle]

Pornography has a lot of societal and cultural complexity to it, its something very human and has a lot to do with moral, aesthetic, and economic issues. Plenty of reason and merit to discuss.

[urban anvil]

Ok if you want to discuss the pornography industry then yes there are issues that surround it

[cyan trellis]

I am chill, though as for mocking... what you did is by definition mocking via your favorite oxford english dictionary. 🤷

[urban anvil]

Ok…

Once again not understanding what I’m saying

[cyan trellis]

Well yeah, hence stating that separating the two would be reductive.

[urban anvil]

This is the only reason we have issues toaster

[humble shuttle]

Even the pornagraphy itself as a piece of media (or art if we wanna get tricky 😳) has a lot to discuss, such as what, how, and why it depicts what it does. How its informed by culture and informs culture and what not

[urban anvil]

Cuz we don’t understand eachother

Be it lazy typing

Or lazy comprehension

[cyan trellis]

I'm using the dictionary you stated is the one having the definitions you use to try to understand you, yet when I use it you're saying that's not what you meant 🤷

[urban anvil]

Mega sigh

✌️

[cyan trellis]

as for this...

"But at least there is societal benefit to construction or IT work, and you cannot compare the industries."
I can and I do. There are societal benefits to entertainment and porn is entertainment.

"Construction workers don’t have their life expectancy halved or more."
anymore* this very much used to be a thing and we didn't get rid of construction but rather put rules/laws/etc in place to make it safer for the workers and provide support for the workers.

"Sex work, specifically porn in this case where you have the viewer added into the equation, is a negative no matter if you have systemic issues or not."
Hard disagree, entertainment has value and in turn is not "negative no matter what." [not an exact quote of anyone just making sure it's clear I'm not saying "not negative no matter what"]

"Hell it hopefully won’t exist without capitalism."
I'm going to need to understand how you're defining capitalism in this case, sex work (including porn) very much exists in non-capitalist countries and has existed long before the modern definition of capitalism so while sure you could hope for it not to exist the evidence is it would very much exist without capitalism much like all other entertainment industries have existed previous to capitalism.

"It is rare something else besides drugs is that bad for you on a mental level."
Hard disagree here as well, there are plenty of things besides drugs that are bad for you on the mental level, social media is a current commonly cited example.

And this is all without going into "worse things" or comparing the relative "goodness"/"badness" of things.

[humble shuttle]

Entertainment doesn’t intrinsically have positive value. In fact in most cases, porn and social media included, it has quite the opposite. You have to substantiate such a broad claim.

This is true, and I certainly advocate for better treatment of sex workers through legal protection and education. And you can argue any industry is backed by neo-slavery and exploitation in some way so I have to concede this point.

Again you have to give a reason as to how all entertainment has intrinsic value, specifically pornography. You can be a hedonist aesthete and claim it gives pleasure but not all entertainment is pleasurable, and so is not all porn. My claim is that commodifying sex is immoral and therefore unethical and therefore has poor societal value. Additionally viewing said commodified sex is provably bad for mental health and only furthers our connection to our carnal, material selves when the ultimate goal of art (and porn in my mind is art, just bad art) is to unself, bring you out of your capricious, tempted, and demoralized self. Thats why it is negative no matter what.

This is fair, using ‘capitalism’ here is a mistake on my part as I don’t use it as most intend. What I meant was as long as things are commodified for the sake of profit necessary to survive. This includes trading sex for favors, bartering with it, or exchanging it for currency. While trading and bartering are not inherently immoral, bringing sex into the equation is as it messes with the issue of consent. You can argue selling your labor of any kind is exploitative and non consensual then and that will have to bring us to the ethics of sex itself which I assume we also have disagreements about so I might have to drop this point depending on if you think what I say changes anything 🤷‍♂️

I don’t see how bringing up social media somehow vindicates pornography. Is your point that there are other bad things people do? That doesn’t change the immoral nature of pornography

I think social media is definitely worse then pornography as it is even more of a widespread and systemic issue but that doesn’t change that both are still incredibly immoral.

[cyan trellis]

"You have to substantiate such a broad claim. "
You as well, you're making equally broad claims in the reverse with no evidence and were first to make such a claim.

Entertainment, by definition is entertaining and brings positive feelings to those whom are entertained. If that isn't inherently positive I don't know how else I would describe inherently positive.

"My claim is that commodifying sex is immoral and therefore unethical"
Morals and ethics are not intrinsically linked, they can be correlated but one does not inherently determine the other.

[chrome mountain]

Modern porn companies certainly flourish under capitalism. On a personal level, I knew a girl a few years back who had a small profile on Pornhub and Xvideos, as well as on one of the cam websites too. She said it was either make money being a battery chicken (i.e. work 9-5 fucking for 5 days a week) for major porn producers and make decentish money, or try and self-publish and make very little. It is a great example of other capitalist industries such as book publishing, where the space is there to self-publish, but you need a miracle to earn anything.

[cyan trellis]

"Additionally viewing said commodified sex is provably bad for mental health" [citation needed] and before going to look for a specific study to back this note that there are almost certainly studies that show the opposite as different people with different mental health situations will have different responses to the same stimulus.

"Additionally viewing said commodified sex is provably bad for mental health and only furthers our connection to our carnal, material selves when the ultimate goal of art (and porn in my mind is art, just bad art) is to unself, bring you out of your capricious, tempted, and demoralized self. " not all porn is made nor viewed this way. this is painting with very broad strokes.

"I don’t see how bringing up social media somehow vindicates pornography. Is your point that there are other bad things people do? That doesn’t change the immoral nature of pornography"
It was an example to show that it is not "rare something else besides drugs is that bad for you on a mental level." social media is the most current and most prevalent of many things that negatively impact mental health.

[cyan trellis]

Sure, there is definite agreement that there are flaws currently that should be addressed and improved. But as your example is an issue of the publishing/production rather than something unique to porn I see that as backing up my point that porn itself isn't the primary factor in many of the issues in the porn industry.

[humble shuttle]

@cyan trellis are you finished with your replies to me? Don’t want to break up your chain

[cyan trellis]

I broke them up so they can be replied to individually instead of in big blocks since sometimes that's easier 😉

then there's no need to wait

[humble shuttle]

Aight

[humble shuttle]

I followed this with my own substantiation so that I’m not making broad claims. I’m making very specific claims. Pornagraphy is immoral because it is harmful to the mind and self the viewer instead of pushing them away from carnal temptation.

[humble shuttle]

Entertainment once again isn’t intrinsically good. Positive feelings doesn’t necessitate morally good actions.

[cyan trellis]

That's a subjective view, not all porn is harmful to all minds. not all porn is harmful to all viewers, not all porn pushes people toward nor away from carnal temptation. That's just overly broad and not accurate.

[cyan trellis]

That doesn't make it intrinsically bad. It's intrinsically neutral.

It can be good, it can be bad

it depends

[humble shuttle]

This is not true, at least not in the universal sense. Morality and ethics are intrinsically linked if you are a universalist like I am. I guess I can assume you are not. Doesn’t change my point either way. Both morally and ethically pornography is bad

[cyan trellis]

Ah, so these are your opinions not broad statements of facts as it appeared to me you were presenting them.

[humble shuttle]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2631831818821535#:~:text=Research suggests that adolescents who,decreased emotional bonding with caregivers.

There are plenty more where that came from (literally look up ‘studies of the effects of porn on the mind). I would love your own citation on a study that states the benefits of porn viewership.

[humble shuttle]

All porn deals with carnal pleasure when viewing. Point me in the direction of porn that instead looks to elevate us away form our primal urges and I’ll concede your point.

[humble shuttle]

Again this doesn’t change anything. Both are bad, how does this prove pornagraphy is not bad? Please explain to me how there being multiple bad things in society makes them any less bad.

[cyan trellis]

That wasn't the context..

[humble shuttle]

Of course they are opinions, all arguments are based upon opinions. That doesn’t change the validity of the points or argument. What a reductive and moot point

[humble shuttle]

What is then, and how does it work in favor of your argument that porn is not immoral?

[humble shuttle]

Entertainment as a general concept is neutral sure, but pornography as a specific subset of entertainment that necessarily deals with the objectification of carnal pleasure and is therefore based upon eliciting that same carnal pleasure in the viewer in inherently immoral.

[chrome mountain]

I completely agree, you talk endlessly about the moral question, but personally I think it is down to the individual.

[cyan trellis]

You said "It is rare something else besides drugs is that bad for you on a mental level." I was responding to the claim of rarity... that was the context. Those set of statements were not about morality.

[humble shuttle]

I disagree. Just the same as some junk food, a little use of social media, or a little drugs won’t kill you or overtly harm you doesn’t change they are intrinsically bad for you. They are temptations and they only shackle you further.

[humble shuttle]

Alright fair.

[cyan trellis]

I agree generally, there's room for improvement to make that individual less likely to be exploited as choosing one thing then being exploited into another is effectively a false impression of choice.

[cyan trellis]

I'm not sure how to take this beyond it sounding like everything is immoral and I should feel bad about everything. And that's not meant as a reductive thing but rather, my experience with people whom have presented similar arguments have effectively gone in that direction in my experience.

[humble shuttle]

Most things are immoral sure, but thats what makes finding those good things more worth it. And don’t mistake me in thinking I claim sex workers are evil or people who engage in pornography are evil. We are material creatures its only natural to be tempted by material urges. I certainly am no saint lmao. I’m all the worse because I recognize that as I indulge in ice cream or video games or porn that I am wasting what little time I have that could be used to better myself and experience the good things that are out there. People aren’t evil for giving into evil temptations, its just part of being human. I don’t blame the addict for their addiction nor their relapse and I hope the same curtesy is given to me. I recognize its part of the struggle and journey of life.

[rich herald]

Balls deep?

[urban anvil]

💀

[vernal pine]

This forum was not meant to get "balls deep" into the subject. It's funny how it went from sex joke references to a full scale analytical debate. I am amazed.

[cyan trellis]

I mean, it's a philosophy forum XD though I'm sure there are more references to be made... granted most of mine are older lol

[fair moat]

Certainly not as much as #1024480129394675835 😹 I'm just silently waiting for it to exceed 4000 😽

Or "WHAT IF the Earth is Actually Flat?changed to religious debate" (sic) 🤮

[fair moat]

""It is rare something else besides drugs is that bad for you on a mental level." Hard disagree here as well, there are plenty of things besides drugs that are bad for you on the mental level, social media is a current commonly cited example." Chronic poor sleep quality is far, far worse than either social media or porn on your mental health; as for drugs that depends on what drugs you're talking about. And then there is still the legacy of leaded gasoline. It felt a bit ridiculous to me for Galath to say, "it is rare something else besides drugs is that bad for you on a mental level".

That being said, most of the things that are horrible for your mental health are also bad for your physical health.

[cyan trellis]

[cyan trellis]

🐙

[rich herald]

Oy vey

[cyan trellis]

Bring back the pinned one 😜

[kind rapids]

Then why do I always feel guilty after I'm done 🤣. I personally think it's not ethically wrong as well. Perhaps it's because I grew up with a religious background?

[rich herald]

Issues of guilt and shame are conplicated. I'd be happy to talk about them with you privately

Public forum is fine too but often we don't want out skeletons paraded in front of an audience

[cyan trellis]

Not just skeletons, when it comes to shame and its many forms there are just personal things we may not want to share in public forums that I wouldn't consider skeletons ❤️

[vernal pine]

I would pay to see that convo

[rich herald]

That's how I define it but fair enough.

[grim atlas]

I think it'd be considered poor communication skills

Some of yall are funny as hell 🤣

[vagrant jacinth]

Porn bad, thats my take. Screws with your dopamine and is unhealthy for your perception towards women. That being said, PAWG.