Did we evolve or were created?

[rose loom]

I mean part of it is true, given enough time, lots of things will happen inevitably

But not everything

[winter shale]

depends what you mean by properly, but I know some, even to have the proteins come about on their own would be unlikely, and thats just the first steps, i know they have done experiments to try and create conditions where they could form, and in thos experiments that i have seen, they didn't even come up with enough and many were backwards, like right handed vs left

there is lots of energy all around, im not saying it would happen without energy, im just trying to show how i see what you are saying, and actually i think the iphone would be more likely to form on its own then even the most simple of life we know of

but of course i dont think iphones are just randomly making themselves

[rose loom]

I am sorry and I am not trying to insult you, but I believe that the ideas you uphold are somewhat influenced by a lack of knowledge on some fundamental chemistry and that makes it very hard to argue

[rose loom]

This confirmed my previous statement

[winter shale]

you are free to believe that, I would probably say the same thing back to you

[rose loom]

Anyway, thank you for your kind responses 🙂 For me it's just past 1AM so I must go to sleep now. If you want you can continue, I will be happy to respond to you tomorrow

[winter shale]

ok, have a good night

[rose loom]

I mean I did finish a university degree in chemical technology so i think I am safe to assume that my knowledge on chemistry is higher than the average person, but you couldnt know that

[rose loom]

Thank you, you have a wonderful day yourself

[winter shale]

we are both agreeing that this wouldn't happen, you even agreed that it could happen but not everything does happen, and thats the point i was trying to get across

you could set up a theoretical scenario for almost anything happening

when you start to get to vastly improbable statistics, there are other scenarios that could be more logical, like creation

[forest pebble]

Prove we were created @winter shale 😉

[left sandal]

well it all starts off when a mummy and daddy love each other very much

[winter shale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4sP1E1Jd_Y

[balmy eagle]

Cause the reproduction is part of the definition of what we consider life

[forest pebble]

Why don’t you prove creation lol

[rough vessel]

Yes, Uranium-238 specifically because it has a half-life of almost 4.5 billion years. And yes lead pollution is a serious problem.

[rose loom]

Yeah but bringing up an iPhone as an example is such a non-argument as it and life are not even comparable. The chance life would spontaneously form is like 100000000000000 times larger than that an iPhone would.

[rose loom]

But then show me how creation is more probable. You mean that to you it makes more SENSE, but that doesnt say anything is about the probability. I don't know if we could ever determine a probability on creation. What I can assure you is that by definition, if one God were to exist, it is more likely that more gods will also exist

[rough vessel]

No, just no 🤦‍♂️

[balmy eagle]

Creation more LOGICAL than Science and evolution? hmmm

[rose loom]

Nah this guy is bullshitting. What he is doing us:

"Look at how smart I am, if you disagree you are stupid. Okay now let me explain". Classic fallacy. This guy either doesn't know what he is talking about, doesn't believe in it himself or is so concerned about convincing people that he forgets to give proper argume ts

[rose loom]

But yeah @winter shale pls be careful while arguing about whether you are stating a belief (something you think but cannot explain), a fact (something that is proven beyond doubt) or a hypothesis (something you may believe is a fact based on some evidence or logical reasoning, but is not yet proven). Right now you are sort of mixing them up and it makes arguing confusing.

[balmy eagle]

Synthetic Chemist? nice let me watch it hehehe (Drug Organic Chemistry is my forte)

[rose loom]

Nice, I'm just a chemical engineer but I feel like most things this guy says are bullshit lol

[balmy eagle]

Dr. Tour will initiate a private Zoom call with anyone who is not a believer in Jesus but would like to hear his story about how he became a man with faith in Jesus, the Son of God. If interested, send Dr. Tour an email to make the request.

If you are a believer in Jesus and you wish to meet regularly, one on one via Zoom, to read and discuss the Bible, Dr. Tour can arrange for that through a team of Bible college students wishing to serve in that way. If interested, send Dr. Tour an email to make the request.

seriously?????

[rose loom]

Hahahaha but the video Neo sent is quite funny because he starts with insinuating biologist do the origin of life research wrong . Then he proceeds with saying :" we can't even make the simplest of life like bacteria"

Bro since when are bacteria the simplest forms of life. Most bacteria are extremely complex

[balmy eagle]

i mean his qualification are great lets be honest

[rough vessel]

Yeah no thank you. In fact just reading that makes me uncomfortable and slightly creeped out.

[balmy eagle]

But why does he want synthetic chemists to prove him wrong? I have no clue on most of genetics, i leave that to the genetisists

[rose loom]

I mean, only basing the truth of your statements on your qualifications alone is quite sad when you are an active researcher

If you haven't learned anything since defending your PhD then you have a sad scientific career

[balmy eagle]

well i have both a chemistry and biology degree and do say i couldn't really prove or disprove evolution myself as that's not my concentration

i don't see how drug chemistry helps you with evolutionary biology...

[rough vessel]

And also no life is simple. Anyone who thinks that why don't you go around and try telling random people that Covid-19 is simple because it is a virus and ser what happens 🤦‍♂️

[balmy eagle]

What he is saying is not wrong. The conclusions he arrives at seem like fallacies in some cases. He has 750 publications but none on this

why make a video if you can just publish. 750 is a crazy high number! very impressive

okay the probability and yeast numbers is just out dumb. should stick to chemistry

[rough vessel]

?

[balmy eagle]

the last part of the video

[balmy eagle]

well a virus isn't alive

[forest pebble]

Hi

[rough vessel]

ehm yeah technically but that has nothing to do with their complexity

Or it does in the sense that they can't self-replicate because of it

[balmy eagle]

okay i went through almost 600

none of his papers have to do with origin of life and genetics....

If he is such an expert in the field and has 750 publications and enjoys doing videos on the issue, isn't it weird he hasn't tried doing a research paper on it?

[rough vessel]

Yeah I didn't bother to watch it 😅. I will if it makes it too hard to follow the conversation.

[balmy eagle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghJGnMwRHCs&ab_channel=ProfessorDaveExplains

watch minute 3 to minute 5 please

it's funny

Rice was such a nice university when i visited..... 😦

@forest pebble watch minute 3 to 5 please it's funny

[forest pebble]

Lol ok

I love professor Dave

Bro it’s an hour long 😂

[balmy eagle]

yeah haven't found him wrong many times

only some tiny things

[forest pebble]

He is a little too snarky for my taste but he is good

Also I don’t like how he acts like he is always right in politics

Like stick to science man

Politics is largely opinion based

[balmy eagle]

oh i don't know

haven't watched him THAT much

[forest pebble]

Lol

[rough vessel]

What does he say?

[forest pebble]

Pulls out abortion and health care stuff

[balmy eagle]

Omg this dude has no biology knowledge wow

how can someone with a Stanford degree and 700+ publications speak like this??????

[rough vessel]

Who knows what his motivations are? But I'm sure he knows better.

[balmy eagle]

although i mean unless he went back to college in his 50s to learn something....

[balmy eagle]

we know his motivations

it's in his page

Dr. Tour will initiate a private Zoom call with anyone who is not a believer in Jesus but would like to hear his story about how he became a man with faith in Jesus, the Son of God. If interested, send Dr. Tour an email to make the request.

If you are a believer in Jesus and you wish to meet regularly, one on one via Zoom, to read and discuss the Bible, Dr. Tour can arrange for that through a team of Bible college students wishing to serve in that way. If interested, send Dr. Tour an email to make the request.
seriously?????

oh

he was jewish

HE SAID MORE IMPORTANT THAN SCIENCE IS MY BELIEFS AND THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH

wow

so forget the science to support the bible?

oh jesus literally appeared to him in his dorm

so Jesus came to his room to forgive him for his sins and turn him into a christian. Amazing story! @forest pebble

[forest pebble]

Whattt

Who

[balmy eagle]

Bruh

WATCH THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNGLZvtRoiU&ab_channel=ONEFORISRAELMinistry

[forest pebble]

Tell them to tell Jesus to come to me

I want to talk to him

[balmy eagle]

JUST WATCH

amazing

[balmy eagle]

Have a word?

[forest pebble]

Busy watching Dave

[balmy eagle]

😂

[forest pebble]

😂

[balmy eagle]

no bro it's worth it

[balmy eagle]

it's short

Okay these chats are killing me i'm going to a natural history and science museum tomorrow to get some support

[rose loom]

Yeah so basically, this guy doesnt know what he is talking about. He is NOT an expert on the origin of life. Even worse, I am questioning his scientific approach. He is not doing science, and then come to a conclusion. Rather, the has the conclusion already, and then thinks about what ways his conclusion may be right. This is the opposite of how we do science.

This guy is trying to persuade people in believing him by saying ''im a scientist'' which is something that real scientists hate. You should not believe someone because he is a scientist, you should believe the science itself. He provides no scientific evidence for or against the life/non-life issue. I dont understand why you bring this guy up.

[rose loom]

What is killing me is not the chat or the debate, its the thought of ''science is also just a belief'' that is really hard for me to understand. I don't understand how people could think or say this if they have the slightest knowledge on how science works. But then again, the people claiming this probably are not scientist nor have had any science education

[winter shale]

yes it does make more sense to me, and its because we are talking about something with apparent design, its like if we found some random advanced alien technology floating in space, how would we know if it was something just naturally made by chance within nature or something built, we would assume with its complex design, function and apparent assembly, that it is far more likely to be created by something. also in response to you saying if one God exist then many likely do, this is irrelevant, im not even saying who or what created the first life, i'm just saying i think its more logical that something did

[rose loom]

I mean, you have reiterated your standpoint quite a few times now. But you have not given me an explanation of WHY you think this. Why does life have apparent design? Why is it more logical life is designed?*

Also, frankly I think the iPhone analogy is quite a weak one, as you are inferring a property of one thing (an iPhone) to another thing (life) which have no correlation to eachother in this respect.

[winter shale]

hes responding in that way because of what hes responding against, all this is a constant thing a constant thing of people trying to say the creation point of view is only because we are not educated on the chemistry or science, so this is a response to that, hes pointing out his education and background for that reason, not to say look how smart i am, but as a reply to people trying to say no educated person believes this stuff

[rose loom]

But that misses the point. The point is that you can be as educated as you want, but if you are not educated in the subject you are arguing about, the rest of your knowledge/education doesn't matter.

So him being a doctor in nanoscience doesnt make him more knowledgeable on the science of the origins of life, that is my point

[winter shale]

he has degrees in organic chemistry, this is what life coming form non life would be based around

[rose loom]

I agree, but it is not the ONLY subject involved in the origins of life, that is one of the reasons it is so hard to do science on this topic, as you need a multidisciplinary team. Organic chemistry is only one aspect of this. Moreover, he may understand the reactions involved in organic chemistry, but that still does not make him an expert in everything INVOLVING organic chemistry.

But that is exactly the thing he is claiming: I know about organic chemistry so I MUST be an expert. This is just not true and he knows it, but he is using it to persuade less knowledgable people to blindly believe what he is saying

[winter shale]

it has apparent design, we know what things that are designed tend to look like, form your point of view you would need to explain how something that looks like its designed can come about without a designer

[rose loom]

but then SHOW ME what in life is ''apparent design''

that is what i dont get

you say '' oh its obvious it looks designed'' but you have not given me one example of WHAT looks designed

Because I dont think it looks designed so frankly i have no clue what you are referring to

If you can show me WHY it looks designed, I can try to argue why it can come about without a creator, but then you have to show me first why

[winter shale]

here we go again, this is exactly why he is saying it, because people on your side are always the ones claiming that you guys have the expertise, I can find someone from every type of education background that comes to the same conclusion, hes just one of many, you just like to think\ that because you have more people that more equals correct

[winter shale]

what would you call it if not designed?

[rose loom]

I dont know, I have no clue what you are talking about. What to you in life seems like it is designed?

[rose loom]

I dont think you can know what I am thinking, and I don't really appreciate it that you try to put these words into my mouth.

[winter shale]

also you have posted so many things from when i was offline that i have not given a response to yet and i dont know if i will have time to because you keep responding more things right now, just so you know

[rose loom]

Its okay, you dont have to respond to everything if you dont feel like it.

[winter shale]

i did want to tho, but not going to be able to now

[winter shale]

well how would you explain life in its construction and its function, for example are just just going to call it a random assemblage of matter?

[rose loom]

The thing is you make a pretty big statement: ''Life looks designed''. But you cannot just say this, expecting me to feel the same way, without explaining why you think this. What is the difference between something that looks designed and something that doesn't look designed? How does life fall on the spectrum of looking designed instead of not-designed?

[rose loom]

Well no as the particular assembly of matter is not random, not in life, not anywhere in the universe.. Also for non-living things matter assembles in a particular way according to the principles of thermodynamics where generally a system tends to increase its entropy and minimize its energy. This is actually why the universe looks the way it looks right now, as it is more stable for the universe to have its matter and energy spread, than to have it all in one place.

[winter shale]

when i am using the word designed, im not even trying to implying a designer, im trying to describe it as complex, organized, and assembled in a way that it all functions and each part has a purpose

[rose loom]

alright thats all I was asking lol

[winter shale]

i dont know a word for something that has an this appearance but isnt designed

or rather isnt assumed to have a designer

[rose loom]

Life may be complex, depending on how you view it. Life is mostly unorganized if you go to smaller scales, but the ''organisation'' of living things stems from the emerging properties, something also present in non-life. And not everything in life has a purpose and not always does it all function. Rather, most things in life can function better if re-designed.

[winter shale]

emerging properties?

[rose loom]

emergent* sorry (my bad, english is not my first language). It means that a new property can emerge from a smaller system.

[winter shale]

i wouldn't say unorganized, maybe like bacteria moving around doesn't seem organized but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the construction of the bacteria, if everything is not organized in a particular way, it doesn't function

[rose loom]

Yeah, which happens a lot in life. This is a bias where in life, if something is not ordered in a particular way, it is not able to sustain life so it dies (or never even starts to live). So you would also not see it if you were to look for it as it doesn't exist.

[winter shale]

well it does exist, it exist in everything that isnt alive, the universe is chaotic with the exception of the laws that it follows, but everything tends to disorder, the only time we ever see raw non-organized matter being put together it a highly complex organized way for a purpose and function is when we create something, things do not just self assemble spontaneously, as all we observer is creation of things

[rose loom]

I think this whole discussion is kinda pointless because either I just don't understand you or we have a very different understanding of complexity, chaos and organization

[winter shale]

yeah i mean i dont think we are going to change each others minds at all

[rose loom]

I mean you are not going to change my mind anyway, but I am just trying to understand your thought process, which also isn't going great, as I am more lost now than I was before xd

[winter shale]

and what is going on in our brains and our thinking is very hard to translate into words

[rose loom]

I think there is a human cognitive bias where we as humans try to put everything ''within'' boundaries to make it easier for us to understand something. Therefore we created this idea of something being ''ordered'' or even ''life'' whereas in reality these things do not really have clear boundaries and therefore the whole construct is kind of vague.

I mean, when you think of something being ''ordered'' or ''complex'' or ''designed'' you think of very different things than when I think of these concepts, so its hard for me to wrap my brain around what you are trying to convey as I have different associations

[winter shale]

ill just ask you this, if you found some complex advanced alien technology floating in space, how would you determine that is was something made rather then a natural phenomenon

[rose loom]

Oh I like that question

[winter shale]

yes, this is how I approach the origin of life

and if it was aliens that built life, wouldn't you say they must be very advanced?

i mean we cant even come close to building a living thing from raw elements

[rose loom]

Okay so for something to be a natural phenomenon, for me it should be confined within some natural boundaries that I think are reasonable.

• It should exhibit behaviour that can be explained through the lens of chemistry, physics, science etc.
• The atomic constitution should approximate the constitution of nearby space

maybe there is more but i cant think of anything right now

[rose loom]

But aliens are life, so how can they be the ones who built it?

[rose loom]

I mean, this really is a non-issue. 5000 years ago we had no telescopes (like JWST) that could look into far space. That does not mean that far space didn't exist at that point, only that we had no way to see it yet

No but i mean, aliens can inherently not be the origin of life, as per definition they have to be life themselves

[winter shale]

imagine is scientist approached the question with a bias that it was a natural phenomenon and then spent decades coming up would theories and ideas for how it could have came about through nature

[rose loom]

Like, for aliens to create life, they have to exist first, which implies that life existed before aliens created it

[rose loom]

But that is not how science works. Science works the other way around. You observe something, than base your conclusions of your observations. You dont come up with a conclusion first and then try to look for arguments that support your conclusion

I mean, in some science this happens but that is just bad practise of science

I mean that would be possible, that would mean our life is created, but that still does not imply all life is created

[winter shale]

origin of life on earth, also we dont know what could be out there, or even beyond our universe, maybe there is something that has properties of intelligence but isnt at all like a biological creature

[rose loom]

Oh my bad then

[wooden hornet]

I think we evolved bcz theres plenty proof fossils patterns in other species and animals, dna, etc whereas for the "we were created" argument it seems to me that the leading argument is that we can't disprove it so it must be true

[winter shale]

but that is how it works in the study of the origin of life, they only spend time trying to figure out how life could come about on its own

anyway i have to go, cya

[rose loom]

cya

[wooden hornet]

seeyah

also does anyone know how to bring the forum thing in the main place of the page instead of the right side im on pc

[rose loom]

I mean, i genuinely just have a hard time undertanding the arguments in the first place

For example a while ago neo claimed life ''looks created'' but I still dont really understand what he meant with that

I mean yeah that would be creation for life on earth i'd say

[rose loom]

I mean, the origins of life really is we observe life is present, and now we are trying to come up with hypotheses and test these hypotheses to see whether they can give an explanation of how life originated. It is not like everyone studying the origins of life is already biased in their professional opinion that it was not created. Even if we could come up with some process that could create life, it would still not answer the question whether life is created or not, as all they would have done is create life.

[wooden hornet]

take the red pill

the matrix is real

life is created

[rose loom]

I mean, I am yet to hear a single compelling argument for why life could be created. The only real arguments I have seen boil down to : ''it looks created'' or ''because religion''. I mean I understand that if you are religious you can feel this way, but the problem is that for people who are not religious, these arguments do not really make sense. It is like when I would speak in my native language to you, you wouldnt understand me. Not because what I am saying is incomprehensible per se, but rather because we don't use the same basic system to express our thoughts. However, I do also recognise that having this discussion without religion is pretty much impossible. I would just love to see the statements being made based of religion or religious influence being actually supported with arguments that are understandible for someone who is not religous.

[vital zephyr]

For you to believe life came from nothing is madness

[rose loom]

That is a statement, but can you explain to me why it is madness to believe that?

For me the same thing may be true, I may think for you to believe life is created is madness.. Doesn't help the conversation any further does it?

[vital zephyr]

What do you believe? How did this universe come to be?

How did life come to be?

[rose loom]

Unfortunately no one knows for sure. I have no idea how the universe came to be. Maybe it has always been here. Maybe it is not even unique and there are multiple universes and we just happen to live in one of them. Maybe our universe is more than three - dimensional and the whole concept of a universe is false but we cannot observe it as we live in three (four if you count time) dimensions.

[vital zephyr]

I see nothing but people in this thread complain about God. But there is no proof that god didn't create life. And for life to come from nothing wouldn't make sense

[rose loom]

but you see, this is an argument that only makes sense to people believing in god. To me what you are saying here is incomprehensible.

[vital zephyr]

There's the big bang. But even that is just a theory that is debatable

[rose loom]

for you to believe that god created life you must also assume that god exists in the first place

so if i dont hold this same belief, it is hard for me to understand your viewpoint

[rose loom]

Why wouldnt it make sense? That is what i am trying to understand

[vital zephyr]

I believe there is a god Yes. Can we prove him scientifically, no. Our science is not advanced enough to prove to me that there isn't a God. Vise versa for the non believers

[vital zephyr]

To me. My personal opinion. I'm referring to the big bang

[rose loom]

And I don't respect you more or less for believing in a god. But I think that giving an argument based on the existence of a god is quite weak, as you have to believe in a god first before you can make an argument from it. Now that is not a problem in itslef, but where it becomes a problem is that for non-believers, these arguments are incomprehensible

Like I genuinely dont understand a lot of arguments that believers are trying to make, as our minds think from different perspectives. So if you give me an argument based on your perspective, it is impossible for me to grasp.

Like a very simple example, suppose we meet at a building, but you are in the front and I am in the back and we make a phonecall to find eachother. If you would be describing what you see to explain to me where you are, it wouldnt make sense because i cannot see the same as you do

So even if we are describing the same building, we cannot understand eachother as we have a different perspective on what the building looks like

[vital zephyr]

There will never be any solid scientific proof to really tell a non believer. Using the Bible is a hit and run. The only thing we have to grasp on is Faith. I don't consider myself super religious. For a person to not believe in God means they believe the big bang. At the end of the day the big bang is just a theory that can be disproven. Who are we as humans not to deny words written from Greeks or Romans on walls or tablets. But to deny a book that has historical dates that seem to match up with what we can date with science. Give or take off a couple hundred years or so

Explain to me why the universe keeps expanding then

I'm sure there is an astrophysicist in this forum somewhere 🤣

[rose loom]

I mean, no one really knows but it is therized to be dark energy

[winter shale]

because it goes back to my question of finding alien technology, but ill make it even more simple, lets say you find a few rocks stacked on each other, you could question whether or not the stack was natural or created and not be sure, but then lets say the stack it 10 rocks high, then you might start leaning towards the idea that that stack was created, or maybe the stack is even more complex then that, at some point you will conclude that it is more likely that is was created and not natural, thats what i mean, the more improbable it could happen by chance, the more likely it wasn't by chance

[rose loom]

Have you ever thought of the possibility that a non-believer may not believe in the big bang? Or that a non-believer may just accept they dont know?

I mean, you are pretty much telling me i HAVE to believe in the big bang, OR god must exist. But there is also a case where neither of them could be true

[rose loom]

Yeah but still would I never jump to a conclusion just because the other alternatives seem unlikely... Just because it seems unlikely that the rocks are not formed randomly or through natural processes, doesn't automatically insist someone or something else made them.

[winter shale]

i'm not saying one is true because to other is unlikely, I'm saying saying if you really only have 2 options, then the less likely one is, the more likely the other one is

[rose loom]

I mean sure, but then we just come back to the same statistical anomaly surrounding uncertainty. As long as there is a chance something happens, given enough tries the chance it happens converges to one.

And I think one fundamental difference we have is that you think that it is unlikely life was evolved, whereas i think it is actually very likely life has evolved and think it is very unlikely it was created. So in that regard I can bounce back every single argument from my point of view to reach a different conclusion

[winter shale]

we just have 2 entirely different prospectives

[rose loom]

Actually, i think life could be everywhere in the universe as I believe the prerequisites required to form and sustain life are actually quite abundant

[winter shale]

yes if you think it happened here then it would only be logical to think its happened other places

[rose loom]

Like for example the RNA example I gave yesterday, where they spontaneously form and get destroyed. The chances of ONE of these RNA strains to actually code for something useful is rather small. But if there are billions of these molecules formed and destroyed every second, then the likelyhood of one of all these billions of RNA molecules to code for something useful actually pretty decent

Which is also what i tried to convey in the lottery argument. The chances of one specific person to win is very small, but the overall chance that someone will win is 1

The chances of a specific RNA molecule to form in one event is very small, but the overall change this specific RNA molecule forms given billions and billions of RNA molecules formed becomes quite large actually

[winter shale]

where is RNA spontaneously forming?

[rose loom]

I mean, there are quite a few studies, but here is a recent one: https://doi.org/10.1089/ast.2022.0027

This study shows that various mafic rock glasses almost certainly present on the surface of the Hadean Earth catalyze the formation of polyribonucleic acid in water starting from nucleoside triphosphates. Both gel electrophoresis and ultrafiltration show that this polyribonucleic acid is, on average, 90–150 nucleotides in length. RNA molecules of this length are sufficiently long to participate in various laboratory processes that are reminiscent of RNA-based Darwinism (Attwater et al., 2013; Horning and Joyce, 2016; Joyce and Szostak, 2018; Horning et al., 2019; Wachowius and Holliger, 2019).

E.g. they have a material that most likely existed about 4.6 billion years ago on earth, and were able to use it as a catalyst for polymerisation of nucleotide monomers.

so yeah, RNA can form spontaneously

[winter shale]

in a theoretical scenario

[rose loom]

what do you mean with theoretical scenario

i mean given you have the nucleotides and a catalyst you can spontaneously polymerize them into RNA

[winter shale]

its not something we observer, its something we theorize

[rose loom]

i mean, we observed that it is possible to do this as this is an experiment in a laboratory where this reaction was performed

it is not theory that this may happen, it is a fact that it does

the question is, was this possible on a young earth

no one will ever know as no one is there to check the conditions of a young earth

[winter shale]

where did the nucleotides come from?

[rose loom]

I mean, all you need is SO2, CO2, some energy source and a watery solution, all of which were 100% present in a young earth

[winter shale]

im not saying their experiments didn't work, im saying they are based on a theoretical scenario

[rose loom]

I mean, it is quite well established that genetic material present in all life on earth can be created from simple moleculs

this picture explains one of the possible pathways that enables this

[winter shale]

i think you are vastly over simplifying this

[rose loom]

how so/

I am not saying this is definitely how it happened, all im saying is that it is 100% possible this way to make genetic material from simple molecules

whether or not this is how life emerged or not we will never know

as no one was there 4.5B years ago

[winter shale]

because for every part of it to all all be in place, for some RNA to form on its own, is not even likely in of itself, then you need it to happen so many times to finally get one that has some kind of useful information, and thats only one thing you need, you also need lipids and proteins

even if you get that RNA with the information, its just going to rapidly decay

[rose loom]

correct, but it will also rapidly form so i dont see the issue

i mean it is all just a chemical balance of a watery solution. Not everything will immediately decay once its formed. Most things that are soluble will stay in solution for quite some time unless they are very unstable molecules

until they react with something else

i mean cmon this isnt rocket science

[winter shale]

i mean technically we could build an entire living cell from scratch in a labotory setting if we knew enough, but all this shows is that it could have been created

[rose loom]

I mean in your eyes everything shows it couldve been created

Even if I try to give you arguments backed with evidence you still say'' but this means it can be created too''

All i am trying to show is that however unlikely, there is a possiblity that this just formed spontaneously

whether it did or not is not what im trying to say

[winter shale]

but RNA is not life, even if if did form naturally and enough times where one had some useful information, there is so many more pieces to the puzzle

[rose loom]

so its just hard for you to imagine this all happening at the same time in the same place? Is that what is holding you back from believing any of this?

I hope you understand that for most of these individual reactions, they happen millions or billions of times a second. So one specific molecule finding another specific molecule and reacting to form a new molecule is not that unlikely given all molecules are formed billions of times individually

[winter shale]

yeah and as i have said before you can pretty much explain how anything could form on its own, you can always just make up some theoretical scenario for anything at all, and im not saying it would be impossible, I'm saying it being created is more logical

[rose loom]

alright, i think it is illogical to think life is created by some higher power we use to explain anything we can't explain yet but eh you do you

[winter shale]

thats not what it is about, im not even saying some higher power, im not even brining religion into it and haven't mentioned God, this is not what this is about

[rose loom]

then what is it about

you dont make any sense to me honestly

[winter shale]

intelligent design

[rose loom]

so what do you mean by intelligent design and why do you think that intelligent design is more likely than some naturally occuring processes?

[winter shale]

intelligent design would be how humans created everything we have, intelligent design of life could be aliens, could be non-biological intelligence, could be something outside the universe we cant even comprehend, my point is i'm not basing this on religion or a belief in anything, i'm saying its a more logical explanation

[rose loom]

Yeah I just don't see how you think design us more logical

I mean to say it is more logical you have to explain why it ism more logical but you fail to do that

[winter shale]

its more likely because what you are saying is incredibly unlikely, like numbers millions of times higher then the amount of particles in the universe

[balmy eagle]

How do man made objects equate to natural phenomena?

[winter shale]

thats assuming its a natural phenomena, you are implying the conclusion within your question

anyway got to go

cya

[balmy eagle]

Yes which gives him plenty of scientific knowledge. Instead of making paper and discussing the things he actually could like carbon dating etc, he speaks of example either non scientific or about origin of life which frankly isn’t chemistry

The processes sure.

But why no scientific papers?

[winter shale]

there are scientific papers

anyway got to go

heres something to watch

https://youtu.be/V5EPymcWp-g?t=161

[balmy eagle]

I looked through 600 of his papers didn’t find one

[winter shale]

cya

[balmy eagle]

Bye

[balmy eagle]

I am indeed. But it’s a scientific fact therefore it’s not a fallacy to do so

[rose loom]

I mean that is not a reason supportimg your argument, all it does is question mine

[balmy eagle]

A lock can have that many combinations. Bit encryptions are man made yet they have more combinations than the particles in the known universe. Does that mean it’s logical to say we are God as we made it?

[winter shale]

Because you can't prove or show it was created when you can always come up with a theoretical scenario for absolutely anything coming about on its own, the way you conclude creation is by how incredibly unlikely something is to happen by chance, the more unlikely it happened by chance, the more likely it didn't, this is really the only way, so i would say you are disregarding this, because even tho you know its incredibly unlikely, your not balancing your prospective

any way really have to go now, cya

[plain reef]

I believe that God used the Big Bang to create us and used evolution to create us

[vital zephyr]

You said the big bang wasn't statistically possible in another thread 🤣. Perhaps you should have a little more depth to your statements.

[balmy eagle]

He said it wasn’t statistically likely without someone or something causing it

[wooden hornet]

a

[pearl jewel]

You know. The theory of evolution it’s just randomness right? At that point it’s just called a transaction of changes throughout life.

[forest pebble]

Mutations are basically “random”
Natural selection isn’t
Idk why u guys keep saying evolution is random

[pearl jewel]

If natural selection was substantial we won’t have some of the species that we have nowadays.

[forest pebble]

Um no.

[rose loom]

This comment makes no sense. How does this contribute to anything? What species wouldnt be alive nowadays? Why wouldn't they be alive? What does that have to do with natural selection and evolution of species? How do you know for sure some traits cannot be evolved?

Y'all just ignoring the discussion and come up with ''gotcha'' statements that don't make any sense and are based on nothing

[pearl jewel]

Natural selection Gives the advantage to other species and takes away from others. Some species That exists right now Wouldn’t be here if natural selection What’s something that truly happens. Natural selection doesn’t have much ground to stand on since a lot of mammals and reptiles we have nowadays Would not be a life if natural selection How it involvement of how things change over time.

[rose loom]

This is my point. You are exactly doing what I was describing. You come up with some claims and statements about natural selection that you cannot back up with any information.

Why does it not happen?
You: "it does not happen"

Like bro are you for real

Can't make this up

[pearl jewel]

There are a few species that come to mind.

[rose loom]

So which are they

[pearl jewel]

One of them is the Equala

I don’t even know how to say it right.

[rose loom]

So why are you convinced it cannot come through evolution

[pearl jewel]

Us too

[rose loom]

Yeah so why do you think that

The fossil record is disagreeing with what you are claiming

[pearl jewel]

Well no other animal shows the type of intelligence that human show and the qualities that we have.

[rose loom]

So you must have some pretty good reason

So what?

How does that even prove anythinf

[pearl jewel]

It does actually prove a lot. Animals don’t really have a sense of justice like humans do animals don’t have a sense of life like humans do Animals don’t have a sense of wisdom like humans do Animals don’t have the power that humans have.

[rose loom]

So what?

That still does not prove why it could not happen through evolution?

[pearl jewel]

How did we evolve into this wen nothing around us is the close to us bro.

[pearl jewel]

Or natural selection.

[rose loom]

You expect me to give you a complete history of human evolution?

[pearl jewel]

We are on every island on the Planets every ocean every sky

[pearl jewel]

Oh no I have a tenant those classes. I don’t need a rundown of some thing that makes people question more things than to accept things as they are.

[rose loom]

I mean, there are people studying this their whole lives who don't even know everything

Anyway, basically a brain was nice to have as it can establish causal relations, for example, your friend gets killed by a predator, you get scared of that predator in the future. At some point you realise you have opposing thumbs you can use to pick up shit. Next thing you know you are banging rocks against bones and whoah what is inside? It is bone marrow. Insanely nutritious. Since your brain needs a lot of energy to operate, and you suddenly have a lot of excess energy you can spent more on it. At some point you figure out how to control fire and soon after that cooking stuff makes it easier to eat and digest. Easier digestion you said? Whoah letsgo more energy for the brain.

[pearl jewel]

That’s a huge step to take, to us now.

[rose loom]

What do you mean

[pearl jewel]

Well, We are aware of our existence. No Other animal has realize that.

[rose loom]

That is straight up false

There are animals that recognise themselves

[pearl jewel]

No

[rose loom]

And expirements done to verify this

I mean, the proof is there, you just choose to not believe it

[pearl jewel]

Really where?

[rose loom]

You can't deny something that's proven

Next thing you know you're gonna say gravity is fake?

[pearl jewel]

Ok

Lest go Somewhere you don’t wanna go. When was it proven that the earth was round.

Hmmm?

You can Google it if you want to.

[rose loom]

https://doi.org/10.1073%2Fpnas.0608062103

[pearl jewel]

Yea

[rose loom]

Here is a famous study on self recognition in Asian elephants

Also observed in dolphins, and apes including humans

So most likely the social structure we live in is part of self recognition

[rose loom]

You think the earth us flat or what?

[pearl jewel]

No Of course not I’m not Ignorant.

[rose loom]

So what is your point

[pearl jewel]

I’m trying to make a point that I will lead back to our original conversation.

[rose loom]

We're discussing evolution not the shape of the earth

[pearl jewel]

It’s all connected because it involves science.

[pearl jewel]

If you don’t see the connection you’re being Ignorant.

[rose loom]

Alright not everything in science is related lol

How is the shape of the earth connected to evolution and why would it matter when it was proven the earth is round?

And how am I being ignorant wtf bro

Are we going to personal insults now

I was just trying to have a decent discussion

[pearl jewel]

No I’m not insulting you I’m just saying what it seems you’re being.

[rose loom]

How am I the ignorant one here

Whatever bro

[pearl jewel]

I’m not saying you are.

OK I’ll get back to my point.

[rose loom]

You are implying I am ignorant because i don't understand why you say evolution and the question on when the shape of the earth was proven are related

Makes 0 sense bro

[pearl jewel]

It’s related because they all have similar things so they all have been studied they all have laws And they all are parts of our physical awareness.

[pearl jewel]

I am not saying they’re the same

So First we must agree on who discovered that the earth was round it A long time ago.

[rose loom]

Idk some Greek guy about 2500 years ago I reckon

[pearl jewel]

Ok

[pearl jewel]

My point is Before him someone that did not dedicate his life to studying physics and how they affect the world. Had the right answer.

And at the same time before it was ever studied the process of how the water evaporates and it rains.

[rose loom]

So what

Still, don't see the relation with evolution

Can you spell it out for me

[pearl jewel]

Ok the Book of history “ Bible” The things that in there can be traced with kings discoveries being done by humans at the time It was being written. One of the things that says is that we have qualities That no other species on the planet has. Justice power wisdom love.
No other animal shows this on the animal kingdom.

This explanation takes a long time But I have essentially broken it down for you.

[rose loom]

Sure bro, your choice to trust more in a book that real world physical evidence. Not gonna argue with you if your whole argument is solely based on the Bible. You literally dismiss all of science in favour of one book. Can't believe you even take yourself seriously 😂

Your computer is made with science, not with the Bible

Anyway have a good night

[pearl jewel]

Actually there a lot of physical evidence that proves my point.

[pearl jewel]

Not all of us based our beliefs on nothing.

[pearl jewel]

I do take myself seriously and it would be wise For you to take This matter seriously as well.

[pearl jewel]

Well Last time Someone said that to me they ended up doing something else so please do me the favor and actually say conversation over. Have a good day.

[balmy eagle]

Ants? Dolphins? Pack animals? Many are close to us.

[pearl jewel]

Not as close as you suggest.

[balmy eagle]

Yet not as far as you do either 🙂

@pearl jewel cause it’s a little much to read all of that between you two could you please give me a brief quick rundown of what exactly you are arguing?

[pearl jewel]

Well The argument in this tab is Did we evolve or were we Created.

[pearl jewel]

Are dolphins over populating like humans are.

[balmy eagle]

I know I created the question

I’m asking what your opinion is and based on what arguments

[balmy eagle]

Humans are not overpopulating

[pearl jewel]

Well Resides on the logic That everything we see around us has a beginning and an end.

[pearl jewel]

Yes when we are taking control of most of the world

[balmy eagle]

We are like 0.01% of the life on the planet

[pearl jewel]

Yet We are everywhere. Mole species only stay in 1 place

[balmy eagle]

The majority of life if I’m not mistaken is under water

We are also inhabiting a tiny portion of land even

[pearl jewel]

My argument Brings us back to the start where it all began. By Logic everything we see and fell Has a beginning and an end.

Who’s to say the universe didn’t have a beginning

[balmy eagle]

That’s not true species are dispersed

Why should everything have a beginning and an end?

[pearl jewel]

By us Not naturally My argument is saying most Not all

[balmy eagle]

By that logic life ends when we die?

[pearl jewel]

I’m not the one who Dictates that because we see it stars are born and die planets as well as humans. And life as we know it

It makes sense that things have a beginning and an end.

[balmy eagle]

Yeah most are dispersed. Some stay in certain areas but few species in comparison. Considering most are Marine they are very dispersed

[pearl jewel]

Yet We don’t have restrictions that animals do.

[balmy eagle]

We do

[pearl jewel]

you know how far away they are when they cannot go to space

[balmy eagle]

Why is most of Australia, Africa, Latin America and Russia uninhabited by humans?

And then there are humans that are smart and others dumber than ants

[pearl jewel]

The animals are as far away from us as they can be we live on the same planet but we have nothing I like Their similarities. But not as close as you say.

[pearl jewel]

That’s because they shoes to be.

[balmy eagle]

Or born to be

We are not all born with the same intellectual capacity

[pearl jewel]

In this life we have a choice of what we do with it. No no one is born like that. Under normal circumstances.

[balmy eagle]

Environment plays a role but there are 100% genetic factors

[pearl jewel]

Yes we are. You just have to work to it.

[pearl jewel]

Yes genetics also has an effect on how smart one can be.

[pearl jewel]

But it doesn’t have a limiting factor.

[balmy eagle]

These two can’t both be true

[balmy eagle]

If it can affect how smart one can be, by definition that’s a limiting factor

[pearl jewel]

Obviously I’m saying that the difference between how smart we can be is not as big as you think

If you want me to be more specific I’ll be more Specific.

[balmy eagle]

So someone who is born without a brain can be as smart as anyone?

[pearl jewel]

No Because that would be abnormal at that time something cause that.

[balmy eagle]

If one can learn something after 5 minutes and another can learn the same in 2 hours, they are not equally smart. Even if they have the same knowledge, the intelligence is different

[pearl jewel]

Yet they both and then at the same goal.

[balmy eagle]

You can work for knowledge not intelligence. Intelligence is inherent

[pearl jewel]

My point is We may not be as fast or a smart but we can learn to me and the end goal can be reached by both. Unless given and unforgiven Heritage by your parents.

[pearl jewel]

No Because I seem dumb people get smart.

[balmy eagle]

Dumb people don’t get smart

[pearl jewel]

Yes because it could happen the other way around to.

[balmy eagle]

Smart people who say dumb things learn and stop saying dumb things therefore appear smart now

Again… Intelligence is inherent

By definition intelligence is not knowing things. It is the ability to learn things

[pearl jewel]

So are you gonna stop them or something. Let’s assume not. A person can learn to become smarter because the more knowledge they learn and the more they study the faster they learn new things and the way they also learn to control their brain the easier it is for them to learn and it’s just an ever ending factor of increasing one’s knowledge depending on whether you have the skills to do it or the right teacher.

[pearl jewel]

Did you know that our brains are designed in the way that the more we use them the better we get at using them. Who would’ve thought. So by definition a dumb person can become smart.

[balmy eagle]

I did. And that’s where the limiting factor takes place. Not all of us can form the same synapses

[pearl jewel]

What you’re suggesting has to do with age. Age is a factor if you waste your youth it is very high chance that you cannot get it back.

[balmy eagle]

How is age what I’m suggesting?

[pearl jewel]

Because during the development face there’s no limit.

[balmy eagle]

Excuse me now?

[pearl jewel]

Yea Apparently when you’re young is easier for you to learn.

[balmy eagle]

I’m not very familiar with biology and biochemistry so pleas explain. I thought synapses can form later too. That when young there is still a limiting factor.

I mean if she was what I was suggesting why wasn’t it smoking? That increases synapses formation also

[pearl jewel]

But not as fast.

[balmy eagle]

What not as fast?

The synapses forming?

[pearl jewel]

Yea

[balmy eagle]

I mean all synapses form at the same rate they are specific chemical reactions I don’t understand that

[pearl jewel]

It’s Hard to explain But I will make it easy. Essentially everything and your body when you’re young Gross at a exponential rate.

[balmy eagle]

Not everything

Boobs grow exponentially much older

[pearl jewel]

Omg. I’m going to stop you there Get back on track were talking about the brain.

[balmy eagle]

Okay okay

You said everything got me off track

[forest pebble]

Hello

[pearl jewel]

Hi

[balmy eagle]

Hi @forest pebble

[forest pebble]

I’m here to crush creation into the ground

[balmy eagle]

I’m getting a biology crash course from this new fellow!

[pearl jewel]

You can give it a try.

[forest pebble]

Oooh cool

[balmy eagle]

He is nice don’t be mean

[forest pebble]

Why would I be mean? 😈

Lol

[balmy eagle]

He is taking the time to explain these synapses in the brain

[forest pebble]

Nah I’ve talked to him b4

[balmy eagle]

What do you think? Are we all born with the same intellectual capacity?

[forest pebble]

Ofc not lol

Look at Elon musk

[pearl jewel]

No But I certainly don’t think the difference is as big as you say. There are those of us that are born with much greater intellectual. But one man can never make up for two.

[balmy eagle]

I thought I knew all the biology and science cause of my theology degree 😦

😝

[forest pebble]

Most of us are some of the smartest beings in existence

[balmy eagle]

To be clear that was a joke. I DO NOT HAVE A THEOLOGY DEGREE

[forest pebble]

The earths existence

Lol

[balmy eagle]

I won’t give fake credentials

[pearl jewel]

Lol I believed you

[forest pebble]

Lol theology degree = waste of your life

[balmy eagle]

Nah Double major in Biology and Chemistry took all my time…

[forest pebble]

@pearl jewel u believe in evolution

[pearl jewel]

Yet we make mistakes.

[forest pebble]

Right

[balmy eagle]

Wellllllllllllll

[forest pebble]

Lol yep

[pearl jewel]

No not Random or natural selection.

[forest pebble]

Unless U are gonna use it to trick people to give u money

[balmy eagle]

Theology degree can be nice I’ve read great research in history of religions

[forest pebble]

Lol evolution isn’t random

Most degrees = waste of time

Based

[balmy eagle]

Honestly theology is pretty fun. But most theologians don’t believe in a God

[forest pebble]

Haha

Ironic

[pearl jewel]

Theories are based upon make Argument that you can Build something on its own.

[forest pebble]

Idk if that’s true but

[forest pebble]

?

Whatt

[balmy eagle]

Since they learn all the history and how things are written and doesn’t make sense with so many religions they stop believing

[balmy eagle]

I don’t understand

[pearl jewel]

Ok If you see a house did it get there on its own?

[balmy eagle]

Man made

[forest pebble]

House ≠ life

House = man made

Life = not man made

Well

[pearl jewel]

I’m just trying to get some common sense to use my Argument.

[forest pebble]

Lol ok find it

[balmy eagle]

GOD MADE 🤯

[forest pebble]

Shush

We give the buddy a chance

😈

[rough vessel]

= huh? Be careful how you use that one.

[forest pebble]

Oh no

= I never understand nuke lol

No offense it’s true tho

[balmy eagle]

I didn’t understand your argument could you please rephrase it?

[forest pebble]

Yea

What he said

[pearl jewel]

OK so life is very complicated cells and the structure that makes them up. Didn’t just form over evolution.

[balmy eagle]

Are you saying you don’t have common sense to make an argument or it just came out wrong and you meant to type something else?

[rough vessel]

lol I can't blame anyone 😅

[forest pebble]

Evolution is explains complexity

[balmy eagle]

Why not though?

[pearl jewel]

They were put together individually to make it up. Just like the parts of a moving car.

[forest pebble]

No we aren’t

We evolved

There is proof

Overwhelming proof

Also why choke out cat with foot? 😆

[balmy eagle]

We have two explanations. A scientific one with a bunch of evidence. And one about a man written book thousands of years ago that contradicts itself in numerous occasions. Which is more likely if we are speaking logically?

[pearl jewel]

Ok let pot your Theory or believe to the test.

[balmy eagle]

A moving car is a man made object

[forest pebble]

Haha it has been done but go ahead

[balmy eagle]

As is the Bible

[pearl jewel]

Let me talk to him and then you ok

[balmy eagle]

Ok

[forest pebble]

Yea extremist I’m more important

[rough vessel]

Truth is I'm not always trying to be understandable 😔

[balmy eagle]

I’ll just stay quietly and correct the scientific inaccuracies from both sides to be a referee

[forest pebble]

Fair enough

[forest pebble]

Ok u won’t hear any from me lol

[pearl jewel]

So you believe in Evolution What is our purpose in our lives?

[forest pebble]

There is none haha

[balmy eagle]

Evolution is not a belief

[pearl jewel]

I rest my case

[forest pebble]

NO EXTREMIDY

[forest pebble]

Lol wym

[pearl jewel]

If there’s no purpose there’s no reason to live.

[balmy eagle]

To live, breathe, eat and make babies 👶

[forest pebble]

You are here to prove creation what does what I think about the purpose of life have to do with anything

[rough vessel]

A universal purpose? Nothing. Purpose is intrinsically personal.

[forest pebble]

The last one my fav

😂

[pearl jewel]

That’s not that It’s not very enjoyable.

[balmy eagle]

Trillions of creatures seem to be fine with that

[forest pebble]

Listen I am alive so I enjoy my life but there is no intrinsic meaning to the universe that I know of

That has nothing do do with evolution

[pearl jewel]

What is our purpose was to enjoy life see the colors see our families grow up And change throughout the years. And explore the universe. Forever.

[balmy eagle]

This is creation Vs evolution. There is a forum about the meaning of life

[pearl jewel]

See Meaning of believing in Creation allows me to believe in a different purpose. A purpose that allows me to be happy to live. And te be some what art pace.

[forest pebble]

The universe is a cold dead endless expanse people can live however they want

[forest pebble]

If it makes u happy to believe a lie I’m fine with it

Idc

I just think your wrong is all

[pearl jewel]

Does it make you happy to believe in evolution?

[forest pebble]

It makes me happy to discover truth

[balmy eagle]

Evolution is not a belief

[pearl jewel]

Well hope to see you there

[forest pebble]

Extremedi he is talking to meeee

Where

Hell 😂

[pearl jewel]

We are living in it.

[forest pebble]

Haha ok

[balmy eagle]

I’m referring. He keeps saying believe in evolution. Calling evolution a belief is inaccurate that’s all I’m saying

[forest pebble]

When I die I won’t wake up

[pearl jewel]

Want proof people or suicide in some thing that is very stupid.

[forest pebble]

Ik just let me deal with him until he is done

[balmy eagle]

Ok

[rough vessel]

indeed. Some of us. There is no other hell.

[forest pebble]

?????

I enjoy my life this is no hell

This is beautiful

[pearl jewel]

Yea Sure you are And you will always enjoy For sure. They will never be a time like the time I had we’re You Wish you were never born.

[rough vessel]

Not for you but there certainly is hell on earth

[forest pebble]

Uh

So

Robe

Please

Proove creation

The topic we were on

[rough vessel]

uh what??

Wait no please don't tell me. We don't need to talk about suicide.

[pearl jewel]

Well for me I lost my father and It was a great lost Because he was my number one teacher.

[forest pebble]

Rip

😔

Anyways

[pearl jewel]

If you think of life living in a place where you see the people you love die is not hell Then I don’t know what is.

[forest pebble]

The topic

[rough vessel]

🪦

[forest pebble]

The topic

Please

Let’s stay on topic

[balmy eagle]

Death is part of life. Take away death and life is pointless

[forest pebble]

Haha yea

Kinda

[pearl jewel]

No Because we would find a different purpose purpose we were created for.

[forest pebble]

LETS STAY ON TOPIC BOIZ

[balmy eagle]

Like owning slaves?

[pearl jewel]

Why do you think there’s so many things we can enjoy.

[forest pebble]

OFF TOPICCZ

[rough vessel]

Robe thinks evolution is fake, you don't, Extermedi doesn't, I don't. Done that's the topic it's over.

[pearl jewel]

I’m getting back on topic I think.

[forest pebble]

Lol the topic is creation vs evolution

State your case sir

[pearl jewel]

Ok

Does anyone here believe in the Big Bang?

[balmy eagle]

Why all these beliefs and thoughts. It’s debating a scientific fact. I want scientific reasons to show creation. Like someone created us to evolve or something like that

[forest pebble]

Haha if u don’t ur a fool cuz it’s is quite obvious the universe is expanding

[balmy eagle]

……

[forest pebble]

Universe expanding means it used to be tiny

[pearl jewel]

So nothing cause the Big Bang?

[forest pebble]

Anyways

[forest pebble]

Bro 😭

[balmy eagle]

I do believe in the Big Bang. Scientifically there was definitely a bang. Now if the theory is correct is very debatable but I do believe in it

[forest pebble]

We don’t know what “caused the Big Bang”

[balmy eagle]

Here the use belief is correct as the Big Bang theory is not proven

[pearl jewel]

I do

[forest pebble]

The universe used to be tiny and now it’s big

Oml

[balmy eagle]

What?

[forest pebble]

U think u do

[pearl jewel]

100% Sure

[forest pebble]

An omnipotent god that kills babies

[balmy eagle]

STOP

[forest pebble]

😆

[pearl jewel]

Lol

It’s true I 100% believe it.

[balmy eagle]

@pearl jewel since you know the truth and are 100% you are officially unfaithful and not a believer

[forest pebble]

Haha u can still believe something out of faith and be “100% certain”

[pearl jewel]

Well English isn’t my first language so I don’t know if I should be saying what I say.

[balmy eagle]

Faith requires lack of knowledge and certainty. If you know for a fact you are knowledgeable and CANNOT be faithful. This is a fact by definition

[forest pebble]

Haha I would bet my life in eternal torture that he is wrong

😂

[pearl jewel]

When I first started speaking English are used to call my Cousin sister, If that explains anything

[balmy eagle]

You kinda already have 😆

[forest pebble]

That’s the joke 😂

[balmy eagle]

Not my first language either

[rough vessel]

You're fine. He's just weird about this.

[forest pebble]

Lol

[pearl jewel]

Ok

[forest pebble]

Anyways

[balmy eagle]

Where are you from if I may ask @pearl jewel

[forest pebble]

LETS STAY ON TOPIC BOIZ 😂

[pearl jewel]

Where was I originally from?

[forest pebble]

STATE YOUR CASE MR SIR GUY

[balmy eagle]

You can’t debate

[forest pebble]

Me?

[balmy eagle]

Yeah

[forest pebble]

What

Wym

[pearl jewel]

Cuba so Not known for the smartest people.

[rough vessel]

Bet? What a joke. I'm just living my life. And I suppose eternal torture makes no difference to me anyway.

[forest pebble]

Uh

Nuke u really be confusing me

[rough vessel]

Smart people come from everywhere

[forest pebble]

I have no idea what u are tryna say half the time 😂

[rough vessel]

Is that a question? Because if it's not I can't help you 😂 😇

[pearl jewel]

By the way I didn’t stop My argument starts where I started at ends we’re I’m at right now. Essentially right now the people that surround me make me see this idea as Ground to stand up on. I mean There’s a lot of things that I’m aware of at this moment that I’m pretty sure wouldn’t be enough for you but are plenty for me. I can set my case but at that point I would be trying too hard.

[pearl jewel]

Yea That’s why I was arguing that we’re all created equal.

[forest pebble]

Uh

Y’all be confusing af 😝

[balmy eagle]

We cannot all be “created” equally

[pearl jewel]

Sorry man I’m not trying to be bro

[pearl jewel]

Yes we can see us the world has made things unequal.

[balmy eagle]

Even twins can have different intelligence

[pearl jewel]

What do those twins say Does one of them say their brother superior than the other?

[forest pebble]

Aye aye aye

[balmy eagle]

@pearl jewel not say something. Put them under an MRI and ask them questions see what lights up

[pearl jewel]

I have uncles 5 of them And they’re all equally smart. And smart for a adult.

[balmy eagle]

That would suggest me and @forest pebble are equally smart which I cannot accept

[pearl jewel]

I’m sorry to be blunt with you but He’s a smart as I am Maybe even smarter. But I’m wiser

[pearl jewel]

You also seen wiser than him.

[forest pebble]

I want to believe I’m smarter but I don’t believe things on faith 😂

[pearl jewel]

You know If you never look down on someone, and look at them in the eyes. You’ll find that it is a much happier circumstances.

[balmy eagle]

I always look people in the eyes even if I don’t like them. Doesn’t really make it a happy circumstance

[forest pebble]

I don’t 👀

Idgaf if ur a dick I will view u as a lower life form 😂

[pearl jewel]

What I meant to say is that if you think you’re better than someone you can’t be happy with them or be happy because you’ll probably be alone if you always Look down on people.

Yep definitely wiser.

[pearl jewel]

Looks like my original statement about you was true.

[balmy eagle]

Well I honestly don’t think I’m wise though. I think I’m smart, knowledgeable but wise? More blunt and pragmatic I’d say… but I’m too argumentative to truly be wise

[pearl jewel]

The fact that you just said things about yourself. Further proves my point.

[pearl jewel]

If you acknowledge the things you struggle with it is wise to say the lest. Like For example lack Self control.

[balmy eagle]

Lake south control? Maybe autocorrect?

[pearl jewel]

Well How am I supposed to say it please correct me.

[pearl jewel]

Nvm I fixt it

[balmy eagle]

Okay makes more sense now!

[pearl jewel]

Good to know.

[balmy eagle]

Although you probably mean self reflection?

[pearl jewel]

No Because you need to have self reflection to be able to notice your lack of self-control.

Right?

[balmy eagle]

Yeah

But I don’t think I said I lack self control

I hope I don’t

[pearl jewel]

Well do you want to find out?

[balmy eagle]

Sure

[rough vessel]

Wtf? 😩

[pearl jewel]

Did you not expect that from him?

[rough vessel]

What is wrong with this guy? 😞

[rough vessel]

I hoped he wouldn't be so open

[forest pebble]

Whattt

Wym

Y’all are confused

[rough vessel]

Lack of social awareness to tell people you feel that way about others. The smart thing is to be quiet and keep those feelings to yourself 😓

[forest pebble]

Bro I wasn’t talking about him 😂

Maybe u don’t understand English very well

That’s why it’s hard to understand you

And u don’t understand me

[pearl jewel]

That’s where you’re wrong. That’s not a smart thing to do but a wise thing.

[balmy eagle]

Well depends where you are. In some places it is also smart to keep your mouth shut 😝

[pearl jewel]

Well yes that is true. But in this situation it is just wiser

[rough vessel]

And I didn't say you were talking about him. All I know is you said that you view "dicks" as a "lower life form".

Tell me is that or is that not what you meant to express?

[forest pebble]

😂

It’s was a joke

[rough vessel]

Save it for your therapist. That's all I'm saying.

[rough vessel]

Well it wasn't funny

[balmy eagle]

?

[forest pebble]

Ok… 😢

[pearl jewel]

I’m starting to cash out that you say that a lot after you get confronted.

[forest pebble]

👌

Does it really matter?

If I’m telling u I don’t think that then just believe me

[balmy eagle]

Not all life is of equal value to me

Equal potential perhaps. Equal value no as value comes from the effect.

[rough vessel]

God whatever clearly we all got off track here. No need to get worked up 💤 🌙

[pearl jewel]

I can’t say My life is more valuable than yours and you can’t see yours is either. I mean you can say it but it’s not true.

[pearl jewel]

You going to sleep?

Well Good night guys

[rose loom]

Really? May I give you a suggestion for being involved in discussions. People don't appreciate it when you present your beliefs as a fact. Especially when it is proven to be false.

I understand it can be hard to express your beliefs, but until now I have not seen a single argument from you supported by any proof, or logical reasoning. What you call "logic" is not actually logic but rather a "it could be possible so now I assume it is the truth" type of logic.

But real logic starts with assumptions everyone agrees on and works from there to get to a point

In your case you come up with statements no one agrees on and then say it's logic

Actually the way you phrase things you are implicitly insinuating that everyone who does not believe what you believe is stupid.

I mean I can understand you can believe in a god, but what I don't understand is why you would dismiss all of science in favor of one book.

And where do you learn all of these false statements about the world around us. Like "humnas are the only animals that are self aware"

Like who taught you that?

Definately not someone who is an expert on animal behaviour

[rose loom]

assuming you dont know each other in real life, how can you know you are smarter and/or wiser than some stranger on the internet?

The way you argue it seems like you think you know everything better than everyone else, but the odds that this is true are actually pretty slim

[rose loom]

As intelligence is a continuous spectrum instead of a discrete one, this is more improbable than life forming from non-life

Don't know how and where you were educated, but the difference between a continuous and discrete spectrum should be common knowledge no?

[pearl jewel]

Common sense a little bit of intuition and not my first rodeo. I’ve met a lot of people on discord already. I I’m about to become a veteran in discord. 8 years soon To reach the milestones of 10.

[pearl jewel]

Ok Then I need to stop because that is a little bit Arrogant of me.

[rose loom]

But the amount of time you spent on a platform has no correlation with the ability to predict someone elses wisdom/intelligence

so who cares you have been in discord for 8 years

[rose loom]

What do you mean? I am not sure of the meaning of the word aggregate in this context

English is also not my native language 🙂

[pearl jewel]

Miss Tipe I’m kinda in a little bit of an emotional state right now.

[rose loom]

Oh im sorry, I hope it is not because of this discussion. If you don't want to respond / reply you don't have to. I hope you know this!

[pearl jewel]

No it’s not I’m having a conversation with someone else.

[rose loom]

Your personal life is much more important than some discussion on evolution with people you don't know somewhere in a discord server on the internet

so by all means just ignore this 😉

[balmy eagle]

I think it’s my fault

I’m chatting with him

[rose loom]

So with this in mind, I am curious, how do you think my intelligence/wisdom compares to yours and even more interested in what makes you think this

but again, if you dont want to respond thats not a problem

[pearl jewel]

Excuse my Parton Doesn’t experience do that?

[rose loom]

not necessarily no

[balmy eagle]

Well each individual is different

[rose loom]

I mean, some people can do the same job for 20 years and still suck at it, so time spent at something does not 1 on 1 correlate with how good you are at something

[balmy eagle]

That’s what makes them individual

[pearl jewel]

Believe it or not it is very common to see someone back down from offending someone or something that seems way too aggressive. By saying it’s just a joke.

I commonly see this and it is typical behavior sometimes.

[rose loom]

It is true that spending more time on something makes you more likely to become better at it in general, but it is not necessarily the case for an individual case

Oh you didnt offend me in any way, I was just trying to make you aware of the way you express yourself and how others may interpret it

You see, the downside of having online conversations is that there is no non-verbal communication, whereas in ''real life'' humans use non-verbal communication just as much as verbal

so expressing yourself online essentially is way harder

[balmy eagle]

You suck

Just kidding

[pearl jewel]

Let me tell you something it is rare to find people like you that sit down and talk on discord. And have a conversation a decent want it that.

[balmy eagle]

😂 that was ACTUALLY a joke

[pearl jewel]

Unfortunately I don’t really have a lot of information to Lead on about you.

[balmy eagle]

Cury if I’m not mistaken believes in a flat earth

[rose loom]

Yeah 100%

[balmy eagle]

Cause it’s in the Bible

[pearl jewel]

Lest Start with you probably like the discovery channel if you are older than me You also probably like you to cause a lot of people do.
And because of the recent conversation you and me Have been having I would like to assume that your a Mail Above the age of puberty. Is it wrong to assume so?

[rose loom]

no im 24 so I'd say I have left puberty quite a while ago

[balmy eagle]

Wait wait do me too @pearl jewel

[pearl jewel]

Omg lol

[pearl jewel]

I had way too much conversation with you.

[balmy eagle]

How old do you think I am

[pearl jewel]

29

[rose loom]

I have no clue how old all of you are. Some of you act like you are either 15 or 55

[pearl jewel]

you like evolution so you also like the discovery channel.

[balmy eagle]

Shoot this dude is good

[balmy eagle]

Hate it

I like the science journal through

[rose loom]

I dont know about discovery channel, I havent watched television in like 7 years

[pearl jewel]

Excuse my Parton Is this a joke?

[balmy eagle]

No I’m about to be 29

[pearl jewel]

Well you did Position me to test myself.

[balmy eagle]

Poop?

Pot?

[pearl jewel]

Not what I meant sorry

[pearl jewel]

Ok

[balmy eagle]

Oh ok

But I do HATE the discovery channel

Too much talk very little science

[pearl jewel]

Oh and it looks like you like twitch.

[rose loom]

I do love science ❤️

[pearl jewel]

sad face

[rose loom]

as a matter of fact I am finishing my masters degree in university at this moment

[balmy eagle]

Yeah that’s what you use to prove flat earth

[balmy eagle]

Oh cool! In what?

[pearl jewel]

you know the reason the people believe in the flat earth is to be a Rebel right?

[rose loom]

i have a bsc in chemical engineering and im doing a masters in sustainable energy technology with a focus on battery technology, societal and economical impact and alternative carbon sources (biomass)

[balmy eagle]

I thought you liked science…

[pearl jewel]

My brother was doing masters electrician.

[balmy eagle]

Engineer 🤕

[rose loom]

And I am doing a thesis in the viability of intercontinental hydrogen supply chains

[balmy eagle]

Sorry had to throw a Chemistry Vs chem engineering joke there

[rose loom]

😢

[balmy eagle]

Not very viable are they?

[rose loom]

actually pretty viable

[pearl jewel]

Do you like coffee a lot?

[rose loom]

i mean they are cheaper than using fossils at the moment

[balmy eagle]

Not too expensive?

You’d need to go underwater

[rose loom]

and that is assuming fossil fuels wont be increasing in price in coming years

[rose loom]

i mean thats pretty unrelated but yes, I am a fan of coffee

[balmy eagle]

Construction though? You’d need new pipes

And the pressure is a pain

[pearl jewel]

What do you mean It’s in your profile picture.

[pearl jewel]

It will go down and then I will go up again.

[rose loom]

Thats supposed to be a glass of beer in my pf picture haha

[balmy eagle]

That’s beer

[rose loom]

depends on where you live

[pearl jewel]

But it will always keep going up no mater what I’ve met people that used to live in the 40s and 30s They told me the price of the fuel back then 0.52 and the Milk was 0.30 Sense

[rose loom]

for example in Europe there is a system called the EU ETS (ETS=emissions trading scheme). So large consumers of fossil fuels are limited in the amount they can use, so naturally price will go up as production increases but companies have to reduce their emissions

[balmy eagle]

Why hydrogen? Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to split it instead of transferring?

[rose loom]

so either they have to pay A LOT of money or they have to innovate towards less poluting production processes

[rose loom]

what do you mean split it?

[balmy eagle]

Split water

[rose loom]

yeah thats how you produce hydro

basically, you have renewable energy sources producing electricity (e.g. solar panels, wind turbines, hydro etc.) and use electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen

[balmy eagle]

Yeah wouldn’t it be more cost effective to split it in various parts of the world instead of transferring it intercontinentally?

[pearl jewel]

Well I live in America Florida State and What I’ve learned is that the prices always go up everywhere no matter what they do go down every now and then but then they go up again and again and again and again. What do you think the longer time goes by the further it seems like the prices change.

[rose loom]

Well it depends. So for example, if you want to produce hydrogen using solar power, than putting the solar panels in areas with high solar irradiation (for example the sahara) makes the power production much more efficient compared to e.g. putting them in germany

and transporting the power from sahara to germany is much less efficient than transporting hydrogen

so in that case no, it is more efficient to do it in one location

[pearl jewel]

Guys this conversation has moved to a subject or is it a different tag.

[balmy eagle]

Germany had the first green city sont trash talk it 😂

[rose loom]

im not trash talking germany what?

[pearl jewel]

We cold talk about is there if you guys want

[balmy eagle]

Kind of moved but it’s rare finding a fellow “chemist”

At least something close to it

[rose loom]

but from this graph it is quite clear that you would rather have your panels in sahara than in germany

anyway, I agree we're getting off topic here

[rose loom]

yeah thats because the world production of e.g. fossil fuels is increasing slower than the demand. So naturally prices go up, thats basic economics 🙂

[balmy eagle]

The new deal should slowly start helping

But regular fossil fuels will skyrocket

[pearl jewel]

But the wages are barely keeping up With the price influx.

[rose loom]

I know, i can barely pay my own bills

[pearl jewel]

In America there’s something called paycheck to paycheck.

[rose loom]

but i dont think keeping fuel prices artificially low by having them subsidised is a proper way to deal with it

[pearl jewel]

What that essentially means is that a loser your money paying your bills.

[balmy eagle]

The stick of butter I get was 3.99 and now is 5.99

[rose loom]

instead, invest the subsidies in renewable energy and eventually all energy prices will become lower and more stable

[pearl jewel]

When did the price change and how long ago did it?

[balmy eagle]

Good luck with that in the south us

[balmy eagle]

Couple months

[pearl jewel]

Omg wow man that Crazy. And those are the things you notice I’m pretty sure other prices have gone up that you haven’t noticed.

[balmy eagle]

I notice everything

But my wife got a 5% inflation raise from her job which was so nice

[pearl jewel]

I feel so guilty when I eat now Having to spend so much money just to keep myself alive.

[balmy eagle]

Amazing they did that for thousands of employees

[pearl jewel]

Although I’m one to talk because I’m a big man.

[pearl jewel]

That’s rare to see.

[rose loom]

I have to get into my savings just to pay for food every month

[balmy eagle]

Big companies are great! Always value and take care of their employees

[rose loom]

Can't even do anything fun with my money because i need it to survive

[pearl jewel]

Sorry to hear that man

[rose loom]

its okay

[balmy eagle]

Prices should come down a bit

[rose loom]

within a couple of months I will have a decent paying job and hopefully it will be okay

[balmy eagle]

Inflation is stagnant

[rose loom]

for now I have applied for something part time just to survive

[balmy eagle]

And gbp and euro are dropping so…

[rose loom]

inflation in my country is about 13% over the past 6 months

[pearl jewel]

For what I’ve been told from the pass I think prices will stabilize In few months Hopefully.

But then they will go up again.

And if they don’t go Down in a few months they will go down during the election I think.

[rose loom]

luckily i dont drive/own a car so I am not too much impacted by the price change in fuels

[balmy eagle]

Pass?

[balmy eagle]

You are

[pearl jewel]

Past

[balmy eagle]

That’s why everything is expensive 😂

[pearl jewel]

Does any of you guys live in America?

Did I disconnect?

Hello?

sad face

[balmy eagle]

Me

[pearl jewel]

I just wanted to check something with you in the past have elections made the price going up or down?

[balmy eagle]

Usually slightly down

But not enough to be sure

[pearl jewel]

Ok So I was told the right thing.

I think they go up right after

[balmy eagle]

Yeah that does happen

Alrighty it’s 4am

Need to go to sleep

[pearl jewel]

Ok

Good night

[balmy eagle]

Good night

[rose loom]

nah its 11 am bro what are you talking abou

xD

good night bro

i g2g too

need to catch my train in 15 min

[balmy eagle]

What are fossils?

[left sandal]

https://tenor.com/view/hmmm-thinking-batman-gif-14744673

[forest pebble]

Mummies 😂

[fast spear]

I like to think I was a monkey at some point. So Im gonna go with evolution. Also it makes more sense to me then to just pop up outta "nowhere".

[rose loom]

I mean, according to cladistics you are still a monkey

[fast spear]

Good. I like being monkey then.

[jagged sundial]

Our universe is wayyyy to complex and fine tuned for the Big bang theory, evolution, etc to be viable options. a simple case study is the human eye. you take one piece, one nerve out of it and it falls apart. same thing with the laws of thermodynamics, the law of gravity, etc etc. the odds of even ONE of these things evolving (not to mention gravity, thermodynamics cant evolve, but thats another argument); is so slim an intelligent designer, or creator, is the only logical answer. as for the worldview behind that intelligent designer and who you think it is, who cares. but prove to me evolution is true on a MACRO scale, not just little changes, but massive ones. I GUARANTEE you cant come up with an example for one simple reason. you, and one singular person, was not there to see any evolution occur. apes dont just become fish. and IF you say we started at the Big Bang and follow that logic, then NOTHING would exist because of the expansion forces would be too great and it would rip everything apart, not magically put stuff (like a fully functioning 757) into existence.

i would say what yall are calling evolution is adaptation. clearly and obviously different.

Something, such as a device or mechanism, that is changed or changes so as to become suitable to a new or special application or situation.

yall are describing adaptation. im sorry but there NO EVIDENCE that we came from primordial soup. If you can PROVE THAT BY SCIENCE, then im in. good luck. thats why its called the THEORY of evolution, cuz it aint a law people.

[balmy eagle]

You don’t even know what a scientific theory is 😂

Scientific Theories also involve proven facts. A scientific theory is different than just theory

To form a scientific theory you need evidence. You can’t form one without evidence

[jagged sundial]

Its ironic then, that its not a scientific theory, its just a theory, yet you defend it as such. 🤦‍♂️

[balmy eagle]

It is a scientific theory are you on drugs? 😆

Scientific understanding requires both facts and theories that can explain those facts in a coherent manner. Evolution, in this context, is both a fact and a theory. It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth. And biologists have identified and investigated mechanisms that can explain the major patterns of change.

https://ncse.ngo/evolution-fact-and-theory

[rose loom]

1. A mammal turning into a "fish" (not exactly sure what you mean by this) but that is not how evolution works and this makes me wonder whether you actually understand evolution

2. the human eye is way too suboptimal to be designed. I don't know why this keeps getting used as "an example against evolution" because it actually proves evolution if anything. If it was designed the designer definitely was on something like crack cocaine, or just reallllly bad in designing stuff. Makes no sense to me to think that a designer would design so many aspects of life in such a suboptimal way. The only logical explanation to encounter all subtleties and imperfections we encounter in the natural world is through evolution.

3. Due to the four forces acting in the natural world to make evolution work, the chance of new traits evolving over a long timescale really is not that slim. Y'all keep confusing random chance with something being "unlikely" but frankly those are 2 different things and if you can't understand that you should go back to school. E.g. if I throw a dice the outcome is random but if I throw at least a 6 in 10 throws that is random but not unlikely.

4. evolution is proven, as it holds itself as one of the most established scientific theories there is. Saying "you can't prove it" is just ignorant and ignoring the facts.

5. A boing would 747 would never come from evolution. Again this is some misrepresentation of the idea of evolution that makes me wonder whether you actually understand what the concept of evolution even is or how it works.

6. The big bang has nothing to do with evolution, nor do any "expansion forces" whatever they may be. Again, saying these dumb things makes me wonder whether you understand evolution, or even the general history of the universe.

[gloomy maple]

Bro really took 30 year old “refutations” of evolution/physics that have been proven wrong for ages now

Google laryngeal nerve giraffe

Here’s a video for ya https://youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0

[forest pebble]

we also have that nerve

why one earth would god design it like that lol

there is so many flaws in our biology that evolution explains

[gloomy maple]

yeah, but the giraffe is a much better example of how fucked it is

[forest pebble]

yea

the best part is all mammals have it

like bro why god make every animal related if there was no evolution