Proof Of God

[inner shale]

@night remnant ?

[elfin sleet]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus

This is a p cool thing I like to share as a pro-evolution argument

[inner shale]

Basically criteria for truth in my opinion is existence

Existence is observable through our senses

Yes sometimes our senses aren’t in line with consistencies within our reality

What we must base truth on is consistency

Say that when we see a elephant for whatever reason we all observe a giraffe

Within our reality if that is what we consistently observe that makes it the truth of our reality whether or not our sense aline with the physical properties of the universe

Our what we observe isn’t in line with what the universe truely is

[night remnant]

Which is why I said way back that your definition of truth requires utility

the truth is only 'truth' to you in the sense that it is useful to you

that's what makes it true

[hearty leaf]

I take it you believe in LEM. In the law of the excluded middle we trust. Intuitionistic logic time 😅 (I'm not saying I believe in it but it's a thing and it's fun to bring up when people say that true and false are the only options)

Ah but you said existence is binary that's another matter actually.

[night remnant]

what about quantum superposition?

is existence binary?

🤣 🤣 🤣

[hearty leaf]

But quantum superposition doesn't imply that existence isn't binary strictly speaking. It's weirder than that.

Also I'm sure you want to try to get into different interpretation of quantum mechanics. The most popular one basically says that quantum effects become negligible outside of the quantum scale.

[inner shale]

I suppose you are mistaking my definition of existence

Which means it observable within our reality

The definition of truth remains

[inner shale]

A consistent observable piece of our reality

[hearty leaf]

🥱 I'm getting really tired of pretending I care about trying to prove god

Nope don't believe in that either. Hell only exists on 🌍

[inner shale]

All definitions should be based on our reality alone

So truth follows with that

What do you think @night remnant

[night remnant]

I don't know that I fully understand what you're saying which is why I keep trying to refine your definition of truth and reality.

What you seem to be saying to me is that you have a much more concrete and confident view of reality than I do.

I don't trust my observations as much as you seem to

and I wouldn't use the word truth to describe my conclusions.

[inner shale]

It’s not about “trusting” my observations

My observations are all I have
Making them the limit of my knowledge and the limit of my reality

Therefore there is no relevant truth outside of what I experience

[night remnant]

How do you account for other people?

They seem to exist

What happens when their observations conflict with yours

whose truth do you go with?

[inner shale]

There is only one reality

Mine

Other peoples is irrelevant

When I’m using logic

[inner shale]

They exist within my reality yes

[inner shale]

Then there is a different truth to their reality

That isn’t to say truth isn’t absolute

The universes truth is unknown

We all observe it differently

Giving our reality a different truth

If when I look at an elephant I see a what looks like a giraffe in your view
That simply means that I see an elephant

The truth remains the same

Because it is a fact of my reality

Once again when determining truth other realities are irrelevant

Now

If we view the universe the same the truth of my reality makes it yours also

Also

Someone can believe something that conflicts with the truth of their reality

An example would be anyone making a logical fallacy

They are coming to the wrong conclusion based on their reality

Make sense @night remnant?

So to be clear I’m not saying the truth is what you believe it is

[inner shale]

Here is an example

I hit a drum

I hear something

The truth of my reality is:
When I hit a drum I hear a noise

A deaf persons reality is:
I hit a drum
I hear nothing

We have different truths

Now

A deaf person can think that they hear something

Even tho they don’t

They are misinterpreting their reality

They are believing a lie

I am examining a cause and effect relationship that is consistent

A deaf person doesn’t know what it means to hear so they can’t say they hear something

They aren’t observing a cause and effect

They just observe the cause alone

Now

The idea of a universal truth is ridiculous because you can’t say that there is a “uni”

As in consistent universe

Outside of your own

[half glade]

It sounds more like you're saying truth is what @inner shale says it is and your deafness example without having experienced deafness reinforces that observation for me.

[inner shale]

.

Did you not read what I said?

Why are you putting words in my mouth sir?

[half glade]

I did, did you not read what I said as that being my observation?

[inner shale]

Me and Pete are having a discussion where he asks if I believe something respectfully and I tell him yes or no

[inner shale]

That is not what I have been saying in fact it is the opposite

[half glade]

There's more to a forum than 2 people and I've been observing and involved in the conversation for a while..

[inner shale]

Ik im telling you how respectful discussion goes

[inner shale]

This is not what I believe and you can see me saying that here

[half glade]

And my observation is that what you're saying is not consistent.

[inner shale]

Ok then fair enough if that is a question then no that is not what I think

I suppose I misinterpreted what you where trying to say

[half glade]

It's an observation, not a question nor an affirmation of fact

[inner shale]

Ok well I’m telling you it is wrong

As I don’t believe that

[half glade]

It's providing an alternative perspective to that of your own

[inner shale]

The point is you are saying that you think that I believe something that I don’t believe

[half glade]

No, I am saying based on what you're saying, as an outside observer, it appears as if you are contradicting yourself and you can use that information to revise your communication or not, what you do with new information is only up to you.

[inner shale]

Ok I’m telling you you are wrong

Truth is relative to the observer

You said that im saying that truth is what I say it is

That is not true

And exactly the opposite of what I said

That is called strawmaning

[elfin sleet]

so are you saying human truth is relative to the specific human that observes their truth but there is also absolute truths that are just "reality" and not what we observe?

[inner shale]

There is no way of determining that there are absolute truths outside of what I experience

Thank you for asking me what I think like a normal person lol

[elfin sleet]

hmm. I somewhat believe in absolute truth

like if humans became omnipotent or smth

[inner shale]

If a human where to become omnipotent then they would be able to determine absolute truth outside of their senses

[half glade]

And I'm providing you my observation that you, instead of trying to clarify or revise simply state is wrong.

That is not a strawman. I am not saying you said something different than the words you have said, I'm saying things you have said at different times do not seem to be compatible.

[inner shale]

But there is no way of determining it or if it exists if we have no intelligence out side of our minds

[inner shale]

“That truth is what @inner shale says it is”

The opposite of what I have said

Nothing I have said amounts to this

[half glade]

The implication, based on the timing, is that normal people do not provide observations and only ask questions which is not congruent with any of my observations of people.

[inner shale]

Show me what I have said that means this

[half glade]

You say "there is no relevant truth outside of what I experience" #1024480129394675835 message

"There is only one reality
Mine
Other people's is irrelevant"
#1024480129394675835 message

So while you haven't said the exact words what you've effectively said is there is no relevant truth outside of your own truth.

And that's the quick version that bypasses much more copy/paste than I can do on my phone right now.

[elfin sleet]

I think the misunderstanding is (correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's not that TruthPowers reality is the truth - it is simply what they observe and is thus their truth - and the example is to point out that you can misinterpret even your own truth - thus making your own truth (or belief) null - it is like seeing a ghost - when there's nothing there (even if your observation seems like your truth)

[half glade]

I could see that as more logically consistent. And it doesn't ascribe your truth onto others in the way the deafness example did.

[elfin sleet]

I don't see the difference in the examples tbh. If someone is unable to hear, yet believes they can - they are making a logical fallacy, no?

Since ghosts are not real - and if I were to believe I saw a ghost, it follows the same logic - I cannot possibly see a ghost therefore I have made a logical fallacy

[half glade]

That is an oversimplification of deafness and hearing and experience

[elfin sleet]

I think it can be assumed that the deaf person would have total deafness - otherwise they could possibly hear something and make the example pointless

[half glade]

That's the only way I can make that true is to throw out all I know about hearing loss in its many forms and that does a disservice to those dealing with the many forms of hearing loss and deafness

Even with total deafness there is more to sound and the experience that for them to experience something different than you do but ascribe it sound as a descriptor because you aren't experiencing the other sensations they are ... yeah, maybe I'm getting wrapped around the axel a bit, but that comes from my own life experiences that deafness is just not that simple

And that is a challenge with many examples, differing levels of knowledge and experience can impact how well any example communicates and sometimes revising the example improves the communication sometimes changing the example entirely improves it. In this case I don't have nuanced understanding of ghosts so using that as an example I have no way to view it other than in the most rudimentary way.

Circles back to the earlier point from @night remnant on it being important to clarify definitions when having discussions, IMO

[worn dawn]

I don’t care to prove God to you I care about all of your souls and don’t want you to go in eternal punishment

[inner shale]

What “good” god sends a skeptic to eternal damnation

[hearty leaf]

Dude, man I'm talking to have a fun conversation. I don't give a shit what you care about 😹

[inner shale]

Does someone with reasoning truly deserve eternity in hell

[worn dawn]

God is a righteous God and he needs to punish sin

He wouldn’t be righteous if He didn’t

[inner shale]

With eternal suffering what does that benefit anyone

That isn’t a solution

And how is disbelief a sin I don’t choose what I do or don’t believe

[inner shale]

That is evil not righteous

[hearty leaf]

Doesn't make a difference what kind of "god" they are they still aren't a god to me. Doesn't mean I wouldn't respect it if it (in whatever form) existed and interacted with me but true I wouldn't respect it if it was like you say.

[worn dawn]

How would you feel if a man like Hitler or Nero wouldn’t be punished for their deeds
And that they got a away with the cowardly act of suicide

[inner shale]

According to your book all it takes is for him to accept Jesus before he dies and he goes to heaven

Unpunished

[worn dawn]

There is more to that then what you say

First you need to repent of your sins

True repentance

[inner shale]

Eternal punishment does nothing there is no point in making an evil person suffer forever if they never learn anything

[inner shale]

Yep then you go heaven

[worn dawn]

People like Hitler and Nero weren’t capable of that they saw themselves as gods

[inner shale]

Dude all it takes is for them to change their minds and repent

[worn dawn]

You need to learn when alive not after death

[inner shale]

According to your book

Yes that is what I said

[worn dawn]

Yes like I said true repentance it’s much more then you think

[inner shale]

Besides I wouldn’t even wish eternal punishment on hitler

[worn dawn]

It doesn’t help to say sorry

[inner shale]

That is beyond any reasonable punishment

You are missing the point

[worn dawn]

It is I agree but it’s Gods will

[inner shale]

God’s evil will

[worn dawn]

No God’s righteous will

[inner shale]

No that is evil

Eternal punishment what on earth

[worn dawn]

I have a exelent video about it it if you want
I translated that video in Dutch

[hearty leaf]

I feel just fine about it. Dead is dead. I'm not interested in punishment or even justice if people mean that by it. I'm interested in things being right or at least better. If people are harmful, evil, destructive, then the imperative isn't justice or punishment, it is removal. It is stopping those things from happening.

[inner shale]

That is in no way helping anyone you are just condemning a person for enterity

[worn dawn]

He can explain it much better then me

[inner shale]

You can’t explain it because it is contradictory

[worn dawn]

I don’t condem anyone

[inner shale]

God does

I’m talking about god

From a first person perspective

[worn dawn]

Let’s say you have a daughter and she got raped don’t you want him to be punished?

[inner shale]

No I would want god to stop it before it happens

There is no point is letting a senerio play out that ends in

A woman’s free will being violated
And a man who suffers for eternity

That is evil

And god sits and watches it happen

[worn dawn]

I think you would react differently if this really was the case

[hearty leaf]

He never said it was helpful. Since I don't believe in these things I view them as irrelevant and when he asked how I feel about evil going unpunished I made it clear that punishment is not my mindset.

[inner shale]

I’m not telling you how I would react I am telling you what ought to be

[worn dawn]

A perfect world?

[inner shale]

If a man did that he deserves to either die or sentenced to prison for life

His choice

[inner shale]

A world god has the power to create

[worn dawn]

Yes and when he escapes justice?

[inner shale]

What

[worn dawn]

They don’t catch him

[inner shale]

If he did escapes justice then I would most likely try killing him myself

[worn dawn]

You don’t catch him either

[inner shale]

Ok and

[worn dawn]

Or worse he comes before trail and the judge sets him free

[inner shale]

Ok so what

That doesn’t make him deserve eternal tourture

[worn dawn]

That is what God is he judges the wicked and the sinners

[inner shale]

He sends them to eternal suffering

[worn dawn]

If you live a perfect life He can’t judge you

[inner shale]

Not a solution just pure evil

[worn dawn]

But so far only one could do that

[inner shale]

Bro

🤦‍♂️

He created us to sin

[hearty leaf]

Yes, but that's because I'm human too. I say I'm not interested in punishment and as an ideal for society I do feel that way. On the other hand, I feel this evil desire to hurt people who do evil things all the same. But it is not something I see as a standard and it certainly isn't the productive goal (this isn't to say punishment can't be helpful from this perspective but not punishment for the sake of harm). The productive goal is to have less evil behavior.

[inner shale]

God created us with a sin nature

[worn dawn]

That goal will never be achieved

It’s only getting worse

[worn dawn]

God gave us a choice

[inner shale]

God created us to sin then sentences us to eternal punishment when we do what he designed us to

[inner shale]

Then he isn’t omnipotent

An omnipotent being would have to know what choices he is creating you to make

[worn dawn]

God can do what He want He is God

[hearty leaf]

Will it? Has it been getting worse? Show me that it has actually been getting worse and not better.

[inner shale]

God can blind himself from the truth?

Cuz that is what you are saying

[worn dawn]

Really?

We are on the brink of nuclear war

Pestilences World hunger

[inner shale]

.

[worn dawn]

God is truth

[inner shale]

💀

answer the question

[hearty leaf]

Has always happened and we are better equipped and more sensitive to managing it

[worn dawn]

You kidding yourself

Ten more minutes I need to prepare my stream

[inner shale]

An omnipotent being knows all consequences of his actions

By creating you he also created your choices
There is no such thing as free will when you where predetermined by an omnipotent being

[worn dawn]

No he created us perfectly

[inner shale]

Read what I said

[worn dawn]

We choose to sin

[hearty leaf]

Maybe, maybe not. That would be another mistake we have to handle. I told you I'm coming from the perspective that there is no god and there is no afterlife. This is what we have. If it doesn't work then we suffer more. It's best to focus on what we can do.

[inner shale]

God made you to sin
He knew what you would do when he made you

How are u so blind?

[worn dawn]

I believe that is true

The second sentence not the first

[hearty leaf]

Or not. What difference does it make? Again the focus on what we can do here, now, long after we're gone.

[inner shale]

Then you aren’t following logic

[worn dawn]

God doesn’t make anyone to sin He hates sin

[worn dawn]

You said it’s only getting better
Is it?

[inner shale]

You sin
God created you knowing what would happen if he did
Therefore god created you to sin

This is called kindergarten logic

[worn dawn]

Kindergarten logic of a Atheist

Did you watch the video?

[inner shale]

😂 the line of reasoning has nothing to do with atheism

It is common logic

[worn dawn]

A Atheist who tried to disprove God?

[hearty leaf]

But there's many other things I think sometimes that disagree with this too. It's best not to talk about those.

[worn dawn]

He Couldn’t

[hearty leaf]

Not only but it many things yes

[inner shale]

If A
And B
Then C

[worn dawn]

Yes simple logic

Gos is not simple

[inner shale]

🤦‍♂️ you don’t know what burden of proof is?

[worn dawn]

God*

Sure

You don’t want proof that’s the point

[inner shale]

Then you would know that you are claiming god exists therefore u are the one that needs to prove it

[inner shale]

That is exactly what I want

[worn dawn]

I gave you many things to find some proof you all rejected it

[inner shale]

Like what?

What

Give me one of the proofs

[worn dawn]

Like that video

The case for Christ

[inner shale]

Right I’m telling you to tell me what it says

[worn dawn]

There is also a movie about it if that’s more convenient for you

[inner shale]

Cuz u haven’t given me anything but other peoples words

[worn dawn]

Yeah sure I am gonna tell a 1 hour docu for you

Your words are from other men also

[inner shale]

How am I supposed to refute bs when you smack me with 1 hour of it

[worn dawn]

Pff

[hearty leaf]

This is easily countered. Sin is an unavoidable byproduct of what is actually intended. Would you say that if a medication is produced and administered widely with the open knowledge of harmful side effects that the intention is harm and not cure? That's ridiculous.

[inner shale]

Give me one singular proof alone

You have only given me other peoples words

[worn dawn]

Anyway I have to prepare my stream

Have fun

[inner shale]

Still you can’t tell me any proof but say you have

Wow

You can’t even tell me one logical argument from the film

Like how on earth are you gonna prove something when you can’t even show you understand it yourself

@worn dawn the funny thing is the entire film is based on proving Jesus existed

Zero proof of god
Just trying to prove aman existed

You say it’s proof of god that is a lie

[hearty leaf]

Or not always ridiculous as unfortunately sometimes the intention is greed without any care for cure but that's not the point of my example.

[inner shale]

Ok nuke ngl idk wut u are talking about lol

[hearty leaf]

Which part lol? I can't blame you for not following if the problem is you didn't read everything I said 😅

[inner shale]

Oh just the last message haha

[hearty leaf]

Yeah that doesn't make sense if you don't read the message it is referring to

lol I saw that. You know no proof of god is coming from me. I'm just here to talk and nothing more.

[inner shale]

Ik

[hearty leaf]

I'm not interested in proof honestly. Personally, god doesn't mean anything to me. It makes no difference to me if means something to someone else and what is god to them happens to exist and impact my life. God to me isn't about proof it's about concept. A personal concept not an objective one.

[inner shale]

Any proof of god goes here 👇
If you can’t tell me yourself I’m gonna assume you dont know what you are talking about

[hearty leaf]

I see what you're doing 😹

My point is anyone who claims it isn't a subjective concept and suggests it can be proven is being dishonest.

[worn dawn]

This only confirms that you don’t want proof

[inner shale]

Any proof of god goes here 👇
If you can’t tell me yourself I’m gonna assume you dont know what you are talking about

[worn dawn]

Let me ask you something
Would it change something for you if beyond a reasonable doubt was proven that God exist?

You are all welcome to join my stream https://dlive.tv/FreethroughChrist?ref=freetroughcrist

[inner shale]

Yes ofc

Any proof of god goes here 👇
If you can’t tell me yourself I’m gonna assume you dont know what you are talking about

[worn dawn]

What would change?

[inner shale]

The fact that I am created intelligently rather than biologicaly

and if you are talking about the Christian god it would mean that an afterlife exists and that I’m going to hell because I would never chose to worship such an evil god

[worn dawn]

Yup you don’t care so why should I ?

[inner shale]

What

[worn dawn]

You don’t care that you are lost forever

[inner shale]

No I am not lost forever

[worn dawn]

Yes you are

[inner shale]

Prove it

[worn dawn]

You will never repent

[inner shale]

Ok and

Prove I am lost forever

[worn dawn]

So why would I bother prove that God exist

[inner shale]

If you can’t prove it why should I take you seriously

[worn dawn]

You’re lost you are beyond help

[inner shale]

Ok I don’t believe you cuz you aren’t telling me why

[hearty leaf]

Not possible. I already said. It's a subjective concept it would never be god to me 🥱

[worn dawn]

Don’t care if you take me seriously
I am no one

[inner shale]

Ok so stop talking here then

[worn dawn]

Great bye

[inner shale]

I’m am only here to people that will spend there time explaining why they believe things

[hearty leaf]

True enough 😉

[inner shale]

Not people that can’t be taken seriously

[worn dawn]

Already told you a hundred things you don’t want to know

[inner shale]

Any proof of god goes here 👇
If you can’t tell me yourself I’m gonna assume you dont know what you are talking about

[worn dawn]

Only your truth counts

[inner shale]

You have told me nothing

Only given me hour long documentary’s

[worn dawn]

You don’t know what you are talking about that’s the whole point
Your just a kid that’s confused

[inner shale]

Prove it

[worn dawn]

Pfff

[inner shale]

You can’t claim anything when you don’t proove it

[worn dawn]

Talked about the prophets crickets from you

[inner shale]

Where

I must have not seen it

If I didn’t respond

[worn dawn]

Even gave you a prophecy from our Lord
Crickets again

[inner shale]

If I didn’t respond I didn’t see it

[inner shale]

What is this

[hearty leaf]

What is proof to you then?

[worn dawn]

I state here that you don’t want proof
Proof me wrong

[inner shale]

evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

[inner shale]

You don’t understand the concept of burden of proof

[worn dawn]

The Bible is proof
My first statement

[hearty leaf]

That's a pretty weak standard for proof 😸

[inner shale]

If you claim something it is up to you to prove it not me to disprove it

[worn dawn]

I don’t play by your rules
I obey God’s rules

[inner shale]

How is the Bible proof exactly?

[worn dawn]

Yeah sure I go repeat myself

[inner shale]

These are the rules of logic and formal discussion if you don’t taken them seriously then move along

[hearty leaf]

Wasn't asking you 🥱

[inner shale]

Go ahead

How is the Bible proof

Tell my dumb brain

My confused child brain

[worn dawn]

Bye have fun blaspheming God

[inner shale]

Oh you can’t

Shocker

[hearty leaf]

I will. Thank you and have a nice day sir.

[worn dawn]

That’s the only thing that you want to do
Just be honest for once

[inner shale]

Haha I want you to back up your claims and if you don’t then I can’t take you seriously

[worn dawn]

Because I caught you on more lies

[inner shale]

Lies

Ooo please

Tell me

My lies

[inner shale]

Tell me in all my kidness lmao

[hearty leaf]

What I want is real philosophy. This thread is a joke and so I make fun of it.

[inner shale]

The funny thing is they think they deserve to be taken seriously and get offended when they aren’t

[worn dawn]

Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
I leave you with this verse
Not that you care
Bye Risk takers

[inner shale]

Bro leaves when I ask why he says this

Seams like he doesn’t have an answer

😂

[hearty leaf]

Whatever man. I find it more likely that he left because he's tired of this bs. Of course he isn't going to magically get us to believe anything religious either so he gave up on that going anywhere but you don't have to mock him. When I said I make fun of the thread and that it isn't real philosophy I didn't mean I go out of my to make fun of the people engaging in it; regardless of their side of the subject.

[inner shale]

🤷‍♂️

The forum is for proof of god

Not people to tell me I’m going to hell

I’m not gonna take those people seriously sorry

Any proof of god goes here 👇
If you can’t tell me yourself I’m gonna assume you dont know what you are talking about

[hearty leaf]

Fair enough. It just means I'm going to wait for a forum I can actually care about and leave you alone here. Have fun and good luck. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.

[inner shale]

Any proof of god goes here 👇
If you can’t tell me yourself I’m gonna assume you dont know what you are talking about

[half glade]

I find this
#1024480129394675835 message

Contradictory to this
#1024480129394675835 message

I believe your truthpowers prior statement much more than the more recent one.

Hmm, for some reason discord responded to the wrong message 🤷

[inner shale]

Saying I want real evidence and will refute non evidence is not contradictory

“I want to refute what they (joep) believe is evidence”

Not

“I want to refute evidence”

Try to actually understand what I am actually saying @half glade

[half glade]

I am trying, if I'm consistently having a hard time understanding what you're trying to communicate, maybe trying to revise how you're trying to communicate would improve things beyond just assuming I'm not trying.

[inner shale]

I asked you to try and understand never said your not

It’s not hard to under a simple sentence’s meaning

.

What is confusing about this

It is in plain English

[acoustic cove]

Objective and testable evidence that God exists. Not faith based, rather knowledge based. Proof.

[inner shale]

Faith based evidence isn’t evidence as it contradicts the meaning of faith

[acoustic cove]

exactly, yeah!

[half glade]

This, this is attacking me not what I said.

Saying that "it's not hard" and that it's "simple" implies that I am incapable of something that is simple or basic while in no way helping me to improve myself.

Saying "It is in plain English" discounts that English is not a simple language and that many people are not native English speakers.

[half glade]

Thank you, this at least refines the argument instead of attacking the respondent.

Objective and testable evidence is generally referred to as direct evidence, however it was stated previously that direct evidence wasn't required.

[acoustic cove]

well the question was about proof though. Proof has to be objective. It didn't just say evidence which has a much lower standard

proof is direct evidence

[inner shale]

I’m saying that based on the fact that most 1st graders could tell me what I said correctly

If someone with limited knowledge can understand it I assume it is simple

[half glade]

again insulting instead of productive

if we're just going to sling mud this will get nowhere

[inner shale]

I’m telling you how I define simple

That isn’t attacking you

Jezuz

The point is you are saying I’m contradicting myself which is not true because u aren’t understanding what I said

[half glade]

I'm saying my interpretation of your words is that you're contradicting yourself, you're saying "no", then instead of doing anything to refine, or otherwise help me to understand what you mean you instead say that a child could understand you but I cannot so I must be less intelligent than a child but that is not an insult...

[inner shale]

That is a lie

I’m not gonna waste my time with liars

[half glade]

and no, you did not say the words "you are less intelligent than a child" but that very much appears to be implied

[inner shale]

I never said anything about your intelligence

[half glade]

then what was the value of this statement?
"It’s not hard to under a simple sentence’s meaning
.
What is confusing about this
It is in plain English"
if that is not intended as a measure of my intelligence what was it's value?

#1024480129394675835 message
where the messages are so you can see I am quoting your exact words in order

[inner shale]

I asked you what was confusing dude

[acoustic cove]

The forum's existence also offends my intelligence @inner shale

considering Proof and Faith are mutually exclusive

[half glade]

That doesn't answer my question of what was the value of those statements. You're deflecting.

[inner shale]

If you want to bicker over useless shit go do it with someone else

It’s a waste of my time

[noble dirge]

So it all comes to DNA. Proving God from a scientific prospective all comes down to understanding DNA. If you bring the world's most Brilliant fellow scholar's In one room, all would agree to one thing, even if they didn't believe in a God. DNA it's is so complex, and not "100%" fully understood. That the existence of a God would be the only explaination for it's Creation. DNA has so much information compacted into it. Writing that billion letter code is beyond us ATM

[half glade]

I appreciate you admitting that those statements you made were useless.

[acoustic cove]

But they have done that and they did not say that the existence of God is the only explanation 😂

And it isn't beyond us, we can manipulate DNA sequencing wtf

[noble dirge]

That's small scale

[inner shale]

The complexity of dna is explained by natural selection

[half glade]

There are lots of things beyond us at any given moment in history, science hasn't historically said that oh "it's currently beyond us so it must be god" normally it's "that's currently beyond us but we'll keep trying to get there"

[acoustic cove]

But you assume scientists don't understand DNA. we do... do you?

[acoustic cove]

and for many of those things we HAVE gotten there exactly

[inner shale]

Well said

[noble dirge]

We've only duplicated small organisms. That's child's play compared to the universe and it's entirety

[half glade]

we don't have to disagree on everything 😉

[acoustic cove]

we don't see us saying see they thought it was god but we figured out what it is therefore there is no God... This is a huge fallacy based on mistaken presumptions.

[noble dirge]

Reread what I said. I said not 100%

We only understand about 96%

[acoustic cove]

and you would understand that DNA is a repetitive process that can be examined. At the end of the day DNA is simple bases connected

[noble dirge]

Oh gosh. You've only taken high school chemistry if you believe DNA is that simple

[half glade]

There's a difference between understanding DNA and understanding every single possible DNA pair and it's relevance in any specific location

[acoustic cove]

With this train of thought, do you think you uunderstand 100% of God? otherwise you only understand a small percentage and the only explanation for that is science

this won't go anywhere, the train of thought itself is a fallacy we can't draw any conclusions.

[half glade]

but again, not understanding every single detail doesn't mean "oh god must have done it" better give up on understanding that last little bit... that's just not how scientists work

[acoustic cove]

Same as being unable to provide Proof of God. The moment you do, Faith doesn't exist.

[noble dirge]

There is over a billion's Worth of information implanted into you'r very own DNA. Look at the bigger picture

[acoustic cove]

Faith exists in the absence of proof, once you see proof, you know, you don't believe

[noble dirge]

No way in hell a scientist can recreate you. The way you are right now!! From scratch. @half glade @acoustic cove

[half glade]

in that context I am the bigger picture and look at taht bigger picture in the mirror pretty much every day.

[acoustic cove]

I think there is a word for it. Cloning

[half glade]

Currently no. In the future 🤷 you don't know that we won't be able to do that in the future.

[noble dirge]

No one is asking about your D size bro 🤣

[half glade]

hey your mom said it was perfectly normal

❤️

[noble dirge]

No cloning is a different process

Even with cloning. That clone wouldn't be exactly the way you are right now@acoustic cove

[half glade]

what we currently do as cloning is, what may be able to be done in the future with better understandings of quantum mechanics who knows

you don't know that it's not possible, this is an unknown unknown

[noble dirge]

As I said. The existence of a God creating DNA is the most educated guess scientist have come up with

[half glade]

only if you throw out all the other educated guesses

[acoustic cove]

well by definition a clone is identical to your genetic code

[half glade]

Natural selection is not any less good of a guess

[noble dirge]

Maybe. But we've only breached the surface with quantum mechanics.

[noble dirge]

Replication but that clone does not have the billions worth of DNA that you carry implanted within it

[acoustic cove]

DNA is not countable.... Billions what worth of DNA?

[noble dirge]

Information that you'r DNA carries

[acoustic cove]

such as?

[noble dirge]

Throughout evolution humans have evolved and you'r DNA has all that information

[acoustic cove]

i need some info of your knowledge in its science to know how to respond to you

I don't want to seem condescending that's why i ask first to know if you want the simple responses or the academic ones

[noble dirge]

Think of DNA as a code. That has billion's Worth of information implanted within it

[acoustic cove]

No no i'm not asking you to teach me, i have a biology degree... i was asking to what degree you know

[noble dirge]

Oh I Major in chemistry

[acoustic cove]

freshman?

[noble dirge]

No

Bachelor's

[acoustic cove]

well yeah biology is usual softmore

[acoustic cove]

???

freshman means first year of college

[half glade]

I think he's saying he has a bachelors degree and is working on his masters?

[acoustic cove]

I don't think that

[noble dirge]

No I have 2 young@half glade kids I wish I can continue into masters

[acoustic cove]

You have a Chemistry degree?

[half glade]

heh, I only thought that because I missread major as master XD

[acoustic cove]

oh okay cause i double majored Chem/Bio

[noble dirge]

Yea. a bachelors

[noble dirge]

Nice!!

[acoustic cove]

You have a BS of science in Chemistry....

[noble dirge]

Yes

[acoustic cove]

And said this?

i don't believe you no offense

[noble dirge]

Omg. You still don't get it lol. DNA has a billions worth of information within it. You'r own DNA! It cannot have been theoretically possible for an Alien race to have created you. Nor possible for some random big bang to have created you

[acoustic cove]

when you learned about half lives you would question so much about god's existence

[noble dirge]

I've questioned often. But none the less still have faith

[acoustic cove]

Okay if you have a chemistry degree this convo can get way more interesting. How do you explain the existence of Argon?

[half glade]

is it possible something is being lost in translation here? I'm curious if maybe enlgish is not the primary language, partly because "DNA has billions worth of information" appears to be missing the type of information which, in my experience, most native english speakers would include in the statement even if they just said "billions of bits worth..."

[noble dirge]

Like the existence of a gas?

Are you wanting theoretical guesses or how it was found

[acoustic cove]

Answer this very quick so you can't google please.
How many bonds between Adenine and Thymine and how many between Cytosine and Guanine?

[noble dirge]

I can't answer that quickly

[acoustic cove]

easy introductory question

[noble dirge]

No?

[acoustic cove]

it's bio 101

[noble dirge]

I know

[acoustic cove]

i learned that in middle school

[noble dirge]

I would need to draw that out

[inner shale]

Dna is explained through natural selection no one said the Big Bang made it

[acoustic cove]

base pairs connect with specific amounts...

you don't need to draw it out, and even i don't how to draw those out 😂

[half glade]

you don't use crayons when you draw that out? I'm starting to think you're not a real doctor 😉

[inner shale]

Dna isn’t drawn it is passed down through generations

[acoustic cove]

he means the structure guys

[noble dirge]

Just because you know something at the top of your head. I'm not going to know it too. Js

[inner shale]

@noble dirge what about dna suggests a creator

[half glade]

oh yeah, I followed close enough I was more joking on you saying you dont know how to draw them out 😉

[acoustic cove]

But telling me you can draw those out by memory while you are a chem major and not bio is crazy

and here they are drawn. Tell me how many bonds

introductory organic chem you can immediately see the bonds

[inner shale]

I think you don’t fully understand how natural selection works because you have described it differently from reality @noble dirge

[noble dirge]

Probably not. Might be more in you'r Field of study @inner shale

[acoustic cove]

need to go DND give you some time to google... see you later guys

[noble dirge]

I'm not going to try to prove myself to you. I don't see why you are trying to test me. @acoustic cove

[acoustic cove]

oh ok

[noble dirge]

Having a degree means nothing. And half the shit I learned I've forgotten. It's just life

[acoustic cove]

It means everything when you are telling people what something you studied is and you don’t know what you are talking about

No scientist would ever say billions worth of DNA

[noble dirge]

You asked me though. I didn't say it and said I know what I'm talking about. It was all theoretically to begin with

[acoustic cove]

I’m not a priest, I won’t teach someone what the Bible says

[noble dirge]

Information within DNA. I thought corrected that for you

[acoustic cove]

When you teach about dna I ask your qualifications

[noble dirge]

I'm not teaching?

[acoustic cove]

Well telling people what it is

[noble dirge]

Just go play your DnD 🤣 I don't understand why you are trying to encourage a fight 🤣

[half glade]

when speaking in an authoritative manor on a topic it's pretty common to get questioned by other people knowledgeable in the topic

[noble dirge]

I gtg back to work. Break is over

[acoustic cove]

Anyhow we can chill and talk more broadly and theoretically later I’m sorry

[inner shale]

Having a degree doesn’t qualify a person necessarily but it tells you that the person studied a specific topic meaning they should have experience in said field of study

[noble dirge]

Very true.

Like nothing I learned in school applies to what I do at work it's crazy

I currently work as a laboratory technician. And the only useful thing I learned was how to titrate and operate an Auto spectra instrument 🤣. Anyways gtg ttyl. Nice chat

[acoustic cove]

WTF is auto spectra?

[noble dirge]

Most commonly used instrument in labs. I'll ttyl gotta focus now. @acoustic cove

[acoustic cove]

No such thing

😂

My wife was a lab tech until this year

[noble dirge]

You'd have to tell me what field she works in later. I always like whenever I hear someone else has worked in a lab.

[acoustic cove]

I’ve also worked in a lab but ok later though

She did icp, gc FTIR NMR

Now she is an analytical research chemist

[noble dirge]

Foreal though. Ttyl. I work in the mining industry btw

So rare earth minerals and gold and silver is what I know best. Ttyl

[acoustic cove]

In the oil industry for her

[inner shale]

Im just not fully understanding why you think dna is proof of a creator @noble dirge

[hearty leaf]

Nothing about any of this is productive 😸

[half glade]

This thread has many conversations within it that stemmed from a root question. Many of those conversations have been productive, I'm not going to discount those just because of the trajectory of a single one of the conversations. 🤷

[hearty leaf]

Maybe, but I think we have different views of what qualifies as productive 🤷‍♂️

[noble dirge]

Oil! Interesting. Never new anyone in that field. You would have to tell me more. I'm intrigued.

[inner shale]

@noble dirge

[noble dirge]

I know I'm writing lol

So pretty much this falls into the chicken in a egg category. What came first? Even so what created DNA? @inner shale

[inner shale]

Created assumes a creator

There is no evidence of one so I can’t say anything created dna

[noble dirge]

Interesting so what do you believe

How do you believe DNA was made?

[elfin sleet]

how was god created btw? this is one thing I never understand about religion

[inner shale]

That evolution by natural selection is the best explanation of the diversity of life we have today

[noble dirge]

Like I said. Chicken and the egg. What came first. DNA or evolution then 🤣😜

[inner shale]

I don’t know

[inner shale]

And made is the wrong word

[noble dirge]

True. Wrong word. How did DNA emerge?

Someone mentioned quantum physics would answer that. And I think that too. But until then I'd like to believe a force being God had some play in it 🤣😜

I don't think God was created. I think of God more as a Force more then anything

[elfin sleet]

but how did god originate then (or our universe for that matter)

a common argument I hear against atheism is that "the universe can't be created from nothing" yet god would have to have been created from nothing y'know?

[inner shale]

I don’t know

[noble dirge]

That's why I said I view God as a Force. A force that's able to hold universe together from collapsing. A force that is able to create DNA and life. A force that we are surrounded by.

[acoustic cove]

I can create dna and life. Am I God?

[noble dirge]

Playing god has always been something us humans do

[acoustic cove]

Having children I mean 😂

[inner shale]

Ok the point Is you have to prove that

[acoustic cove]

And dna can be super clomped or super simple

It’s a bad example

What about mono cellular organisms?

RNA?

What about all the rest. You are taking the extreme example of human dna for its complexity and infer all of it is not fully understood.

[inner shale]

@noble dirge please prove to me that this force exists

[noble dirge]

Unfortunately I can't prove any of those things. Maybe the God particle? Even so it's very debatable

[inner shale]

Then why claim it

[noble dirge]

You said so yourself. You don't understand how DNA came to be or emerged. Why not accept the idea of higher power or God creating life?

[inner shale]

Because it is baseless

[noble dirge]

I just felt it was semi a bit better then using the Bible as a reference

[inner shale]

I base my beliefs off of logic and evidence not personal whim

[noble dirge]

There are some forces we can unfortunately never be able to observe through an instrument. No man made instrument will ever be able to detect God. Just like gravity being a force. Just because we can't see it. Doesn't mean it's not there.

[elfin sleet]

doesn't mean it is there.

if you can't observe it then you have no way of knowing if it exists or not

[noble dirge]

Yea my spelling and wording is off today. Probably because I'm at work distracted 🤣

[half glade]

ugh, higgsboson getting "god particle" moniker was marketing nonsense and not a descriptive name.

[half glade]

saying we'll "never" be able to do __ is a defeatist way of saying we can never improve despite all of the times we've gone on to be able to do things some people previously said we'd never be able to... you can't know that we'll never be able to observe these things. And your gravity example makes no sense, we can very much detect gravity and observe it.

[inner shale]

Just because you think it’s there doesn’t make it so

I don’t believe anything without proof

And if you have proof then tell me

If not then u are in the wrong channel lol

[noble dirge]

Why create this channel if you guys are not willing to be open minded? 😜

[noble dirge]

Yes we can measure it. Although we can't see it. We know it's there

[inner shale]

I created this channel for proof and you are saying there is none

There is a difference between being open minded and accepting everything you are told

As truth without thought

A ridiculous mindset

[half glade]

"you guys" you must have missed the parts where the OP and I aren't completely in agreement and I'd very much argue that while we don't agree on things with him I do think he's at least somewhat openminded. If not he wouldn't have conversed with myself, pete, or several others that he very much has conversed with here.

[inner shale]

Love ya

No homo

[half glade]

too bad, not even a little? 😉

[noble dirge]

It's possible to believe in science and believe a god exists. God has always been around since the beginning of man. Science is relatively new. You can't say you only believe facts, because in science those facts. Can easily be disputed and unproven. No matter what type of proof us believers try to throw your way, you're always going to find a way to disprove it. Forgive my spelling still at work@inner shale

[half glade]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. You said there are things we'll never be able to detect, I said you don't know what we will or won't be able to detect in the future using gravity as an example (though I really don't understand what you were trying to prove with gravity), I counter that we can detect gravity, and you're saying we can measure it but not see it... I'm not really sure what you're trying to communicate with this nor how it relates to my counterpoint that we may be able to detect things in the future we can't currently detect.

[noble dirge]

Can you physically see with you'r own eye's is what I was getting at.

[inner shale]

Also @noble dirge don’t tell me I’m not open minded cuz if I wasn’t I would still be a Christian

[half glade]

no, that's why I said I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe you can revise what you're trying to communicate?

I even recapped the sequence of events in my own words to show my perception of the sequence of events.

[inner shale]

It is possible to believe in a god and science yes

@noble dirge
I refute anything that isn’t proof

And I tell you why

It isn’t proof

According to the rules of logic

So if u give me evidence and I refute it u have to tell me why I’m wrong

U can’t just say I’m wrong

[noble dirge]

I wouldn't know how to reword what I said. Pretty much what I was saying is there are force's we cannot see. With our naked eye. But they do exist @half glade

[half glade]

Sure, we agree there are forces we can't see with our naked eye.
That doesn't mean we can't detect them and present them in a way we can see.
That doesn't mean that we won't be able to detect new things in the future.
That doesn't refute what I had said at all so placing it as a reply doesn't make sense to me.

[noble dirge]

Have you gotten the question. Can you prove God doesn't exist? A force some know and feel that's there. Although we can't see God we know it's real.@inner shale

Just a question

[inner shale]

Burden of proof

[noble dirge]

Enlighten me

[inner shale]

When someone claims something the burden of proof is on them

I don’t have to prove anything

Cuz I am not claiming anything

[noble dirge]

Yes in the future there's no telling what we can accomplish. At the same time with that logic at that point in time we should be able to discover some presence of god

[inner shale]

You think you know it

But I have yet to find anyone that can prove beyond doubt

Or even the slightest doubt

[noble dirge]

I tried?

[inner shale]

Tried?

Tried what

[noble dirge]

To bring you back with science 🤣

[inner shale]

Say that all you want

I’m simply asking for proof of god

[half glade]

Which was my point in countering your statement here #1024480129394675835 message it may be possible in the future since we don't know what we will be able to detect in the future.

and actually your two statements read to me as incompatible with each other.

"There are some forces we can unfortunately never be able to observe through an instrument." and "Yes in the future there's no telling what we can accomplish." specifically seem contradictory to me.

[inner shale]

@noble dirge if you have no proof then there is no point in being here

[craggy maple]

If that's the case, you should leave the thread as well

[inner shale]

I’m not asking a question of myself…

[noble dirge]

I was agreeing with you'r statement of the future. So yea I guess I can see where I contradicted my statement

[craggy maple]

This entire thread has just been you going on for days about oh how smart you are because you are purely rational and the joy you get out of a pointless conversation

Thousands of messages, to no reasonable end

[inner shale]

The thread is about people who come to give evidence for god

Perhaps you didn’t read the prompt

All I ask is for people to give evidence

It’s strange how no one wants to instead they attack my character to avoid the question

If you don’t think there is evidence move along

If you think there is I want to hear it and have a formal discussion on it

So through your pride in the trash

Along with your ad hominem attacks

Proof of god goes here 👇

[acoustic cove]

Of course you can and I never try to use science or try in general to disprove God. The problem is when one tries to attribute scientific data and/or knowledge to religion, or support that science can help prove gods existence. You cannot scientifically provide any proof of god’s existence simply because if you did there would no longer be faith. The moment you know, you lose all faith.

[acoustic cove]

If you know he is real, you have no faith! Do you see the problem? You don’t know his existence, you believe in it, have faith in it. You can’t know him to exist and at the same time think you are a believer. Faith is about believing on something you DONT know and cannot possibly know or comprehend.

[acoustic cove]

Well I don’t think there is proof as there can’t be any, but I still like being here responding to people and seeing what they say

[noble dirge]

I agree with all that you said. Very well put. However believing in god also requires hope. A god can give hope to individuals. So even if God is proven. Faith would not be lost. This is an off topic thing. But I know I'd get a good response from you.
So I wrote this paper, for my now wife, several years ago for her woman's history class.
The paper was written in a response to a question they all had to answer.
It was.. "Would the emergence of a female Goddess during the woman's moment have helped the woman's moment quicker." @acoustic cove

[noble dirge]

Same here

[acoustic cove]

It would have as it did already in the past

[inner shale]

Hope is a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen.

If believing in god requires hope then then it is baseless and as such shouldn’t be treated as a legitimate belief 🗑

I can hope that unicorns are real

I can hope that leprechauns are real

I can hope that mermaids are real

I can hope that fairies are real

I can hope that a god is real

Doesn’t matter how much hope I have there is only one truth

[fallow thorn]

god could be the human minds way of trying to comprehend the source of all things

perhaps alien races have a far more advanced comprehension than us

[half glade]

heh, this could almost lead toward redefining god to a point that proof of god is simply the fact religion exists... though I think @inner shale and I would agree that's not quite the original context of this thread 🙂 an interesting thought exercise for sure but not quite the same thing.

[rustic pine]

The meaning of Faith is closer to Trust then it is Belief, the closer someone comes to knowing God is real the more faith they are likely to have not less, although Faith isn't necessarily about Gods existence, lots of people would say they know God exist and the Faith comes in with trusting him or his plan

[acoustic cove]

If you know the truth you cannot have faith. They are mutually exclusive

There can only be faith in the absence of knowledge

By definition

There is no arguing this. This is literally what it is

[rustic pine]

no

[acoustic cove]

You are either faithful OR knowledgeable

[acoustic cove]

And right below it the definition regarding religion 😂

Do you not even read what you post?

One is figurative and the other is the actual definition of faith

[rustic pine]

your just assuming that people aren't using it like the actual meaning

[acoustic cove]

The Bible does

The Bible tells you this 😂

[rustic pine]

I understand that you think its what the second meaning is but thats not what it actually is, thats what people like you think about it

[acoustic cove]

I seriously think that if I tell you you are now typing you will say no I’m not

Like the lesson you gave me about carbon dating which I literally studied

[rustic pine]

you have your version of what you think it is but im telling you want it actually is

[acoustic cove]

It’s the opposite 😂

I know what it is

You shape your own beliefs to support all your argument and think the facts agree with you cause you don’t understand them 😦

You literally posted it and didn’t even read it

[half glade]

no, words can have multiple meanings and in the context it was used that is the generally agreed upon meaning.

But even if you take the first meaning "complete trust or confidence in someone or something" that is distinct from to know

[acoustic cove]

All my life growing up as an orthodox Christian I was thought that we don’t need proof as faith means believing in something from the heart. You don’t know and that’s the beauty of faith and God. Saying you know it as facts means you KNOW it, therefore lose faith and all you got is knowledge

[rustic pine]

no this is you assuming again, i post the whole thing because im not trying to hide that part, im trying to show you that when we say it we are actually talking about what the actual meaning is and people like you go and try it imply a second meaning because you dont understand

[acoustic cove]

So what you were saying about the spirit and god talking to you cannot be true as you already knew. Unless they actually talked to you literally

[half glade]

So you're saying only the first definition of a word is the real definition and all other definitions are invalid?

[acoustic cove]

No buddy everyone speaks of faith in god with the second definition…. CAUSE THAT IS THE DEFINITION

the complete confidence came AFTER that one. BECAUSE of that one

[acoustic cove]

It’s also funny cause it used to be only the second one.

They added it because of radical uses of these words

I just don’t understand. Neo goes against his own religion and all science. But then says both religion and science prove his existence and tries to use them

[half glade]

🤷 language changes over time, that's why it's important when discussing complex topics it's generally prudent to make sure everyone is agreeing on the definitions of more nuanced terms.

[rustic pine]

no, words are just words and meanings have always constantly changed, there is not really a correct, there are popular meanings and less popular

[acoustic cove]

We care about it’s meaning when the Bible was written

[half glade]

Yet you're saying one of the most popular meanings isn't the meaning? I'm confused.

[acoustic cove]

And Christianity says if you know you don’t have faith, cause you know

I don’t have faith I’m breathing

I know I am

I don’t know Putin won’t throw nukes. I have faith he won’t

Even though I’d bet anything he won’t

[rustic pine]

in your opinion, and yes a lot of people use it that way, but im saying that is not correct when it comes to God, you dont just have blind belief, that would be dumb

[acoustic cove]

Even though I’m 99.99999999% certain he won’t

[acoustic cove]

It is not my opinion. Don’t take facts and paint them as my opinion

[rustic pine]

no

[acoustic cove]

THAT IS WHAT YOUR RELIGION TEACHES YOU

maybe you haven’t even read your own books :/

[rustic pine]

i like how you are assuming things again, as if you know what i believe

[acoustic cove]

You already said you believe in God, Jesus and support the Bible.

I’m not assuming

[half glade]

no? You're saying definition 2 from the dictionary you screenshot isn't the definition of the word. That's one of the most popular meanings of the word, and the most popular meaning of the word with the context of religion. How is that not saying one of the most popular meanings isn't the meaning of the word?

[acoustic cove]

Faith is the assurance that the things revealed and promised in the Word are true, even though unseen, and gives the believer a conviction that what he expects in faith, will come to pass.

[rustic pine]

I believe in God yes, I said the bible isnt perfect and no book is and i read all kind of religious books, and i dont think i ever said my opinion on Jesus but I don't think hes God so what am I?

[acoustic cove]

Lol here is the scriptural definition

Assurance and unseen=objectively unprovable

Faith from Latin literally translates to trust

Not to know

[rustic pine]

exactly what i been saying, Trust

[acoustic cove]

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

[rustic pine]

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[acoustic cove]

Are you blind, ignorant or just a contrarian? Trust in things unseen literally tells you have faith in something YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW. You can’t have proof

[half glade]

#1024480129394675835 message
"lots of people would say they know"

[rustic pine]

i didnt say you can prove it

[acoustic cove]

So what exactly is your opinion on god’s existence

Cause that’s all I said and you started arguing against.

[rustic pine]

lots of people would say they know God exist and the Faith comes in with trusting him or his plan

[acoustic cove]

IF YOU KNOW YOU DONTT HAVE FAITH

What is wrong with you?

It’s English

Jesus Christ

[half glade]

yes, the use of the word know there is what started @acoustic cove saying you cannot know god's exists and have faith at the same time

[acoustic cove]

Like for real the pope himself would say this

This is ridiculous get me 1000 Christians, 99% would agree and the rest would just not answer with anything making sense

Happy? You are the top 1% 😝

[rustic pine]

and I said for those that think they know, the faith isnt in the existence but trusting him or his pan

[acoustic cove]

Rewrite that that sentence makes no sense

Rewrite it again

[half glade]

Super productive, much help

[acoustic cove]

I can sit here and talk forever. But now he is arguing for the sake of arguing. Changing left and right for no reason

[rustic pine]

if I said i have faith in God, im not talking about his existence, im talking about trusting him, his plan

[acoustic cove]

Do you see me here trying to disprove god?

[half glade]

so, your argument is that there are people that say the know god exists, but do not know his plan so have faith in the plan but don't have faith in god?

[acoustic cove]

Neo spent 100 messages trying to disprove science thinking that somehow proves god 😂

[fallow thorn]

I always thought god was self evident and doesnt need proof

[half glade]

That hasn't been a part of this conversation at all, if that was a previous conversation, good for it but it really doesn't have bearing here.

[acoustic cove]

Which means that no one can have objective proof

[rustic pine]

no im saying there are people that say they know he exist and they have faith in his guidance and plan

[half glade]

Right, so they don't have faith he exists, because they know he exists. They have faith in his plan because they do not know his plan. Correct?

[rustic pine]

pretty much is

[acoustic cove]

It’s the same person though. Which means the train of thought and logic he used there is also used here. Which we can see. The only difference is that because of that conversation my friendly patience is a tad lower

[acoustic cove]

No they don’t. They know he exists and follow what he told them to do to not go to hell

[half glade]

Sure, that can impact your views, but bringing that other conversation into here when it's not relevant to anyone else that is a part of this conversation is distracting at best.

[acoustic cove]

Well it is still the same conversation, just a different argument now

[half glade]

I don't see how this would be self-evident.

[half glade]

There can be multiple conversations in a single thread...

[acoustic cove]

@half glade I asked him when the earth was created and was telling me that there is no time and we don’t know what time is etc…. Just answer a simple question. We know what time is in this discord right now for us and out understanding

[rustic pine]

I would say they still have faith, i think its probably impossible to absolutely know anything at all, but yeah if they know then they know

[acoustic cove]

Then they can’t know

[fallow thorn]

well, i don't specifically mean the christian god, personally my views are more similar to animism, but I mean the idea of something creating the world, or the world being sourced from some thing/place, to be a logical conclusion

[rustic pine]

right, they cant

[acoustic cove]

If you use the word know lightly then yeah sure. But in a thread about PROOF, the word know mean irrefutably

[half glade]

not necessarily, that pre-supposes a beginning. It's equally plausible that there is no beginning.

[rustic pine]

faith is apart of everything

[fallow thorn]

I agree

[half glade]

Then, not self-evident.

[acoustic cove]

What is animism? I’m not familiar

[fallow thorn]

I would argue that beginnings and ends are a product of linear time perception and are somewhat illusory

[acoustic cove]

In Sunday school I was thought the Big Bang was gods work

Taught*

[fallow thorn]

generally it is the spirituality that many indigenous peoples live by

[rustic pine]

time is super weird

[acoustic cove]

Bruh that’s only because you are the chosen one

[fallow thorn]

well, he is Neo

[rustic pine]

https://tenor.com/view/matrix-neo-keanu-reeves-power-windy-gif-15235043

[acoustic cove]

Who explains jokes man? Come on

[fallow thorn]

this is a philosophy channel, my brain is just in that state LOL

[acoustic cove]

Spirits are also not provable but do have way more evidence than the Bible

And I use the word evidence loosely (indicators)

[fallow thorn]

I think they exist

[acoustic cove]

Do you believe in them? Have faith?

[fallow thorn]

well

I've read books about astral projection

so for me this stuff exists but just needs more research

[acoustic cove]

My question is do you have faith in them or think they are true and need reasearch

Cause in my opinion you either know/objectively think they exist OR you have faith in them

[fallow thorn]

i wouldnt use the word faith

[acoustic cove]

Because the word faith implies what?

Please say it cause neo here says you can have faith and know something to be true

[fallow thorn]

faith has always had a religious connotation for me so I tend not to use it

[half glade]

https://tenor.com/view/dead-horse-spank-exhausted-wake-up-gif-17245109

[rustic pine]

I never said it proved God, but I do have issues with macro evolution and origin of life, and I think the best explanation is intelligent design

[acoustic cove]

Well I made a forum for that

[rustic pine]

you made a forum for proof of God when you said it cant be proven?

[fallow thorn]

hahaha

[acoustic cove]

No for evolution

This isn’t my forum

[rustic pine]

oh ok

it would probably be me against 10 people that believe in macro evolution lol

[acoustic cove]

What are you talking about

More creationist

[rustic pine]

im saying that i think most believe in evolution

[acoustic cove]

Cause they like to say what they think

[half glade]

Well that thread is right here https://discord.com/channels/1014756943824429126/1025632176248737873

[acoustic cove]

Well usually people do tend to form a consensus with the scientific community over a religion. That’s why most Christian’s also support evolution. And stop saying believe… support is better. Belief implies faith

I hate people asking me If I believe in evolution 😂

[rustic pine]

macro evolution is a belief

[acoustic cove]

I also believe in math I guess

[fallow thorn]

the real question is do you believe in your self?

[rustic pine]

there is no question that things change and adapt

[half glade]

I mean if we're going to tell people to stop using words stop using "forum" to describe a thread within the "phylosophy-forums" forum >.< the OP starts a thread not a forum

[rustic pine]

thats actual science

[acoustic cove]

I think you’d fe confusing macroevolution with old evolution or something

Macro is about the species

Not time

[rustic pine]

to say everything evolved form a single life form, thats a belief

[acoustic cove]

Well you are right. The problem is though that when someone asks you if you believe in something that is true, if I say yes it inherently means it’s not true. Belief is very close to faith. So I can either say please don’t use that word or not answer

[half glade]

also rip steering the evolution conversation to the evolution thread XD

[acoustic cove]

True

Move there

[fallow thorn]

what if thats a mega powerful lifeform though

[rustic pine]

i know what it is, im saying that because i see major limits on natural selection, its not a something that can create new complex systems, no matter the length or time

[rustic pine]

im not saying it cant be true, im saying its a belief

[fallow thorn]

I feel like philosophical debates keep devolving into people arguing about words

[acoustic cove]

Words are important Nathan

At least for scientists

[fallow thorn]

they're more of a guideline if you ask me 🤪

[fierce cargo]

Can anyone prove to me that there is no God?

And use the scientific method to do so, please.

[acoustic cove]

We don’t say god doesn’t exist

I at least even if I’m not a believer have said I’d never try to disprove god

I can scientifically prove that the Bible is not always right, infallible, or literal if you want though..

[fallow thorn]

ahhhh but the bible is a creation of man

but is god a creation of man?

[acoustic cove]

Perfect logic to use!

@inner shale read that!

[half glade]

that same statement was basically made earlier: #1024480129394675835 message

[rustic pine]

I tend to believe we are God collectively, maybe only a portion of God, but the life and experiences we have are ultimately Gods, its an experience of separation

[fallow thorn]

ayyy neo gets it

[rustic pine]

it makes the most logic i can think of

[inner shale]

@half glade

Do you believe in a god?

I have a few questions

[half glade]

🤷

I figure there are two option. Either, everything has always existed forever and there is no beginning with regard to time or something had to create everything from nothing and that something has to have existed forever (or that process can extend upward until an eventual something that has always existed forever as that's the only way I can wrap my head around existence happening at all)

[inner shale]

Ight then

[half glade]

FWIW I don't do that thought exercise often and won't have that conversation for long periods of time because it has very real physiological impacts on me... I can't really explain it beyond I don't like how my body feels when I start thinking about that 🤷

[inner shale]

Lol ok

[half glade]

❤️

[inner shale]

Nope

No one can prove a negative

[half glade]

That's not really what science is nor how it works 😕

[fierce cargo]

So then, can you prove that God didn't create the universe or anything in it, then?

[fierce cargo]

So science no longer uses the scientific method? Hmmmmm

[half glade]

The scientific method isn't "disprove this random claim" it's about I create a hypothesis, I test it and provided I am getting consistent results proving the thing then I submit my proof of the thing to others to be disproved. But that first step is proving the thing exists/is true. As such before any scientist would try to disprove god there would first have to be someone submitting a proof.

This is where I believe @inner shale is coming from in requesting proof in this thread.

My point was simply that science/the scientific method does not skip the initial proof being submitted stage and go straight to disprove my hypothesis that I have not provided any proof of.

Hopefully I at least go that aspect of what TruthPowers is trying to communicate close to accurate.

[inner shale]

Yea I suppose so

[inner shale]

That isn’t how burden of proof goes

[fierce cargo]

The original hypothesis is that God doesn't exist, right? Therefore the onus is on the hypothesizer to prove it.

[acoustic cove]

no lol. The hypothesis is that God exists.... That's the uncertain. So prove he does. Once you prove it, then we have to disprove any of the proof you provided. Once nothing from the evidence you show can be disproved, then you have successfully proved objectively and beyond doubt that God indeed exists. The original hypothesis to prove evolution wasn't that evolution doesn't exist 😂

And let's say they came out with PROOF that evolution is a sham. Proof that 99% of science is wrong, STILLL that would not provide anything to support God exists

[fierce cargo]

You need to reread what the scientific method is...

[acoustic cove]

God cannot be proven and that's the beauty of faith

[acoustic cove]

lol

please enlighten me cause you seem way more educated, intelligent and knowledgeable when it comes to science.

First step in the method is to Observe something. Explain to me how you can observe a negative

Love it when someone tells you to reread the scientific method with published research papers 😂

[fierce cargo]

When you have a hypothesis, you test the hypothesis to determine if it can be true or nullified. You only need one proof that the hypothesis is null to conclude that it can be false.

[inner shale]

When you tell a guy with a degree in science what science is

[fierce cargo]

Apparently they rewrote it...

[inner shale]

According to that unicorns are real

I can’t disprove it

[fierce cargo]

I do have a science degree btw.

[inner shale]

Therefore they are real

[acoustic cove]

in what?

[inner shale]

⬆️

[fierce cargo]

Actuarial Science

Mathematics, studies etc.

[acoustic cove]

never heard of that before, hmmm?

[inner shale]

Bro that isn’t science 😂

[acoustic cove]

Actuarial science is the study of the financial implications of uncertain future events.

and it's a bachelor's of Arts

not BS

BA

[inner shale]

Yep bs

[fierce cargo]

Considering science is the application of mathematics, it's more science than you're thinking science is lol

[acoustic cove]

you said a degree in science

that is BS

[inner shale]

Yep

[acoustic cove]

Bachelor of Science

what is it though exactly? statistics?

[inner shale]

The fact he doesn’t know how the scientific method works tells you enough

If something can be disproved then it is real

Please

[fierce cargo]

Statistics, advanced modeling

Analysis by probabilities

[inner shale]

Yep

[fierce cargo]

All that fun stuff

[inner shale]

Yep

But it has nothing to do with science as related to the scientific method

Just like social science

[acoustic cove]

Calculus
Algebra
Statistics
Probability
Computer Science
Finance
Economics
Business
Actuarial Science (if available)
cool curriculum... Which class tought you the scientific method?

[fierce cargo]

Statistics

[inner shale]

👆

[acoustic cove]

really?

[inner shale]

…

[acoustic cove]

hold up i'll get my statistics book it's somewhere in a box\

[inner shale]

Lol

[acoustic cove]

an unusual observation is made
an explanation is proposed for this observation
experiments are performed to test the explanation
after repeated experiments a theory is formed
experiments are performed to validate the theory
(once validated the theory becomes a new scientific law)
(the scientific laws are used to predict new observations)

this is from statistics

So how could we have observed God not existing?

[inner shale]

According to xd dude
Unicorns
Fairies
Leprechauns
Mermaids
Cyclops
And all mythical creatures are real

There is also an invisible tea pot up my ass

[acoustic cove]

Your observation is that life is too complex.
Explanation is God
no experiments for God conducted
no repetition but still formed a theory
no experiments to validate the theory
etc etc etc

[inner shale]

A giant invisible spaghetti monster also lives in the moon

[inner shale]

According to this

[acoustic cove]

I mean scientists were looking for proof of god up until the 20th century and failed... How can you think you guys are actually providing proof?

[fierce cargo]

Can you provide proof that God does not exist? I want to see the evidence that God does not exist. Prove to me that He doesn’t exist and I won’t believe anymore.

This should be easy for you, right?

[elfin sleet]

congratulations, you are missing the point

it is called belief because you have to BELIEVE in something; if there was proof then there would be no point in believing since you would KNOW it was true

and plus, prove to me that ghosts aren't real

prove to me that I'm not a ghost

you can't

therefore I am a ghost

[fierce cargo]

Everyone’s missing the point on everything. Neither side can prove each other is right. It comes down to faith. And faith is a lot better than trying to prove something that consistently changes and is readjusted, like evolution.

[elfin sleet]

do you believe in gravity?

[fierce cargo]

The definition of evolution has changed over and over, but God has not.

[elfin sleet]

alright? do you believe in gravity?

just need a yes/no and a why, please

[fierce cargo]

I believe gravity exists, and it is also variable. For example, gravity on earth behaves differently than gravity on the moon. But yes, gravity can be observed. Just like God can be observed, if you look for Him.

[elfin sleet]

so you believe in gravity because you can observe it with your eyes, and how you come back down after you jump?

that sort of deal?

[fierce cargo]

Gravity is not something that weighs on my mind 😉

What are you getting at? Cut to the point 🙂

[elfin sleet]

you see gravity with your two eyes - you can feel gravity weigh down upon you

you can prove beyond a reason of a doubt that gravity is real

yet, I see no God - it does not impact my life in any way - so does that mean this force has forsaken me?

You’re probably a little bitch and God doesn’t wanna listen to you whine

-_-

[inner shale]

Xc dude this is proof that you have no idea how burden of proof works

[fallow thorn]

whats the alternative to god?

[elfin sleet]

ghosts

I am a ghost, therefore I am omnipotent

[fallow thorn]

who said ghosts are omnipotent

[elfin sleet]

me, as I am an omnipotent ghost

[fallow thorn]

well you better do some good with that omnipotence

[elfin sleet]

ig? not really that obligated to do more than anybody else

not like I can stop the timeline from shattering once kanye becomes president 😦

[acoustic cove]

fallacy after fallacy... The point is that things that contradict god are proven.... we can't prove a negative. The fact is not that god exists. Give me proof that god exists and i can disprove all of them! EVERY SINGLE EVIDENCE YOU CAN OFFER ME, I WILL DISPROVE. and if somehow you could prove god, there would be no faith. If you actually KNOW that God exists, sorry to tell you buddy but you are not faithful at all!

[elfin sleet]

this is why I don't ask for followers.

[fallow thorn]

well isn't existence proof enough

[elfin sleet]

mhm. it's just there's no proof that god exists

[acoustic cove]

what do you mean?

[elfin sleet]

referring to this

[acoustic cove]

...

[elfin sleet]

xd

[acoustic cove]

oh oh

true

[fallow thorn]

well I mean there must be some base point from which all things originated

[elfin sleet]

they want their silly proof when really just the concept of me is enough to prove I exist

[acoustic cove]

Someone tell me why god exists with no reference to religion or god.

[elfin sleet]

not necessarily? and plus, why would god have to be the thing that exists at the start?

[fallow thorn]

well perhaps it isnt god

but it must be investigated right?

[elfin sleet]

sure, if we had some method of doing so

[acoustic cove]

it was. for millenia

no proof was found

scientists were trying to scientifically prove God's existence until the 20th century

CERN started by trying to prove God and ended up proving how God DIDN'T create the universe

[fallow thorn]

maybe there are answers in the quantum realm

[acoustic cove]

and the catholic church attributed the big bang to God... Weird how the all-knowing Bible has no reference to a big bang

[elfin sleet]

it could be an answer our meer mortal minds couldn't fathom of

it could be anything, or it could be nothing. the universe could've always existed, with no start and no end

what I'm trying to get at is that God often just makes "sense" to a lot of people and so they believe in it

an all-powerful being that created everything?

[fallow thorn]

shit maybe we're all too stupid to figure it out

[elfin sleet]

didn't mean too stupid

I meant we don't have enough information

there's an infinite number of hypotheses one could come up with, and an infinitely larger number of hypotheses one can create with more information

the fact of the matter is we just have no way of testing it right now. that's why I feel like society really needs to focus on science more than it currently does

there's infinite improvements that could be made to everything in our lives if we had more information; better methods of doing things, etc...

instead we send people to figure out how to make money off of a virtual stock market.......

[fallow thorn]

i think there needs to be a pivoting then

people need to get along more and not argue about whos right

[elfin sleet]

^

I feel like society should be a lot more of "how do we make sure people get what they need" instead of "which political party am I voting for, and therefore, what political party (and the people in it) will I never support"

everything can be solved with enough scientific advancement and time. I truly believe.

it's just how long are we going to take to get to that point, and how many needless lives are going to be wasted because they can't even get some damn fresh water

[fallow thorn]

it will take time but its assured to work out

[elfin sleet]

yeah. if you don't believe it'll work out, why do anything at all?

all I can do is hope I'm right, and to live the best life I can

[fallow thorn]

yeah man

[elfin sleet]

if I'm wrong, I'll just blame the ghost of christmas past

xd

[fierce cargo]

Sounds like a straw man argument to me…

[acoustic cove]

The audacity!

[inner shale]

no god

[noble dirge]

So it's not a physical presence you feel. It's more of a spiritual presence. And I have had 2 experiences of God trying to communicate with me. I'm not super religious nor go to church every weekend. But I do believe in God. In one experience I felt extreme fear when I heard his voice

[acoustic cove]

You probably didn’t read the rest. I was talking about knowing va having faith. I was saying that if you know for a fact, you can’t have faith.

[noble dirge]

No I'm still trying to catch up lol@acoustic cove

[hearty leaf]

Well, I have 0 spiritual experiences so are you trying to convince me that you are magically special?