💣┇weapons-gadgets

[vocal flume]

hit reg failure makes damage bad.

[indigo nexus]

It makes damage 0.

[viscid carbon]

Shit legit needs to get its stun halved or maybe even removed and the auto camera rotation removed to compensate

[indigo nexus]

You can find this out yourself if you wish, though it’s a little bit of a hassle - you can use wireshark and identify the IP of the server you’re connected to, and can look up its approximate location

Can also use windows traceroute to then determine what path your packets are taking to the server, which might highlight where an issue is taking place

[opaque wolf]

i wanna see its damage go to 0 and get its stun halved like you said

winch should not do damage it screws up combos with weapons like KS and sledge

[heady kindle]

Cerberus fireworks flashing off a players body with no hitmarker.

Or KS-23 rubble exploding off a player with no hitmarker.

So sad

[floral arrow]

Cerberus got nerfed hard 🥲🥲

[heady kindle]

Additionally, I want it to pull a single chunk out of whatever wall/arena objects it hits. Make it flimsy, but at least it would feel more satisfying than the "tink" as you hit a wall and do nothing

[vocal stone]

It's better now, i even like it more than model tbh. But it could use some love, reload time speed increase would be nice

[viscid carbon]

The issue is that it stops health regen

[opaque wolf]

cerb’s fire should be better and model should get buffed to 117 but have its ammo nerfed to 6

[floral arrow]

oh really? imma try it again next time I log in

[heady kindle]

Cerb should be able to kill heavy from full health without waiting.

The waiting between shots thing sucks. Everything else is fine imo

[opaque wolf]

yeah that’s what i mean by its fire being better lol

[indigo nexus]

It currently doesn’t require waiting if you hit every pellet, last I checked? If you miss even one though it does

Or just a quick melee, which isn’t usually hard against a heavy with cerb

[opaque wolf]

oh wait i forgot it got a damage buff didnt it?

[viscid carbon]

Cerb is ass because it relies so much on its fire for damage, effectively doubling/tripling its TTK, and at that point why even bother with it when you have so many other downsides to play around on top of that

[heady kindle]

I haven't played in 2 months for reasons. So if its changed, I missed it lol

[opaque wolf]

cerb is also terrible in the current meta of healing and shields , which is why its barely used

[viscid carbon]

All of these downsides to play around and it still can't even kill fast to compensate, tf is the point

[indigo nexus]

This seems quite inaccurate to say, you don’t usually have to wait for fire to finish off your opponent, and it doesn’t last long enough for the “double or triple” statement to make sense either

[heady kindle]

Fire has utility against gas and goo that I think justifies its lower performance against players

[viscid carbon]

KS can break walls but it also fucks people up

[vocal stone]

It is able to kill heave in 3 shots with no pauses now. But after the 3rd shot yeah, you need to wait a little bit

[viscid carbon]

Just because it has a niche use doesn't mean it should do ass damage

[heady kindle]

Truest true ever trued my dear

[indigo nexus]

Well it can, most guns require hitting all heads to be able to beat it on this front (and many still cannot)

And that’s automatics, not burst damage weapons

[viscid carbon]

Cerb just seems pointless to me unless you're counterpicking a goo gun user or smth

[heady kindle]

But you haven't considered that Cerb is cool af

https://tenor.com/view/thinking-batman-hmm-chin-rub-maybe-gif-544874022650473771

[opaque wolf]

cerb would be better if the meta wasn’t what it is

too much healing and shields

[viscid carbon]

On light sure, but it's never felt oppressive to me on medium or heavy

[heady kindle]

Remove H+ infuser, remove a charge from dash, and we will all live in peace

[opaque wolf]

yes, no you are killing light melees even more

[viscid carbon]

And on light you can also just dash out of its effective range

[opaque wolf]

h+ shouldn’t have been added shit is ridiculous

[heady kindle]

Light needs buffs, but just not to shit like movement and healing.

Whatever the gateway and cloak grenade are, do that more

[viscid carbon]

Infuser should get an RPM nerf, dash is already nerfed enough with the cooldown, it's just that the other light specs are ass

[celest jolt]

light is just in a weird spot tbh

[viscid carbon]

And technically their uses are replaced by the vanish bomb and gateway respectively

[opaque wolf]

they shouldn’t have even nerfed dash’s cooldown, it was fine before

[viscid carbon]

Yeah it's just that the other light specs are ass

[opaque wolf]

idk anyone who calls dash overpowered

[heady kindle]

And a cooldown nerf. Smoke should not have a longer cooldown than fucking instant heal god beam

[viscid carbon]

Literally just met someone lol

[celest jolt]

who

[opaque wolf]

can’t fucking aim then lol

[celest jolt]

just met them and already complaining

[viscid carbon]

Basically

[heady kindle]

We need them create a definition for each class so balance has a direction. They've just sort of been winging it

[opaque wolf]

light is only in the meta because of their utility with gateway, glitch grenade, and h+

[viscid carbon]

It should just get an RPM nerf so you can't literally cheat death with it
Smoke cd is just incredibly questionable to me though

Is it like 50 seconds or some regarded shit?

[indigo nexus]

This is also true on medium, though for heavy most guns can beat it if you could hit all heads (so realistically about equal for a very good player)

[opaque wolf]

their guns are good but their heal pool kinda makes them a liability compared to mediums and heavies

[heady kindle]

SMOKE BUFF PLEEAAASSSEEEE EMBARK

I want to do my cool af gung-ho revives in the middle of the fight with smoke instead of running around to hide

[opaque wolf]

i’m fine with that but make it easier to get rid of smokes with explosives

[heady kindle]

I CANT DO THAT WITH 2 pathetic charges that take an eon to recharge

[heady kindle]

Yaya sure. Anything for my baby to be good

[opaque wolf]

the only reason thermal vision + smoke was so bad was because smoke is so hard to get rid of

[heady kindle]

Also thermal literally doesn't exist rn so....

[opaque wolf]

i’m saying before

[viscid carbon]

They cucked smoke specifically because of thermal lol

And then just didn't even undo it

[opaque wolf]

they just needed to make smoke go away when hit with explosions

[viscid carbon]

cs2 smoke lol

[opaque wolf]

yeah something like that

[indigo nexus]

Smoke does enter a “weak” state when hit by explosions but doesn’t typically outright disappear. In this state, the particle effects are still there but the blinding haze disappears, so if you’re in the smoke you can see other players in there without much trouble

It also gets physically launched around, though in an enclosed room it may not be obvious

[viscid carbon]

Should just dissipate entirely imo

[opaque wolf]

it doesn’t need a weak state it needs to fully disappear, i shouldn’t need an MGL to fully get rid of smokes in an area

hell it would even bring frag grenade some more use

[indigo nexus]

Sure, I’m just stating how it works currently as most people probably aren’t aware

[opaque wolf]

yea fair

did they even acknowledge thermal vision in the recent ama

[indigo nexus]

I for one am okay with just… not bringing it back, because I don’t think it’s a very good gadget design

But if people want it it’s also not inherently a big issue

[viscid carbon]

There's a bit of stuff the game could do without but what can we do

[opaque wolf]

i’m fine with it being gone, it made headglitching on rooftops a bit too easy lol

also fully countering invis when it’s already pretty bad ain’t it

[viscid carbon]

Bring it back as a spec maybe

[opaque wolf]

it would need to do more then

[viscid carbon]

If they're too lazy to make a 4th for light

[viscid carbon]

It's already quite strong no?

[opaque wolf]

eh kinda but idk if it’s spec levels strong

like would you really pick thermal vision over dash

[stoic garden]

or cloak, or grapple

[viscid carbon]

The problem is dash is too strong lol

And the others are too shit to bother with

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think it’s just dash, in this case. Thermal vision would absolutely suck as a spec even if they made it better

[viscid carbon]

Actually scratch the first statement, I just meant it's basically mandatory

[opaque wolf]

dash is just consistent and is useful everywhere, doesn’t really make it overpowered though

[indigo nexus]

Though I also reject the idea that there’s a huge gap between dash and the other specs, at least outside of high elo play

I just do not see evidence for it in the current state of the game

[viscid carbon]

Fair I guess, could just bring recon senses back but for light instead since it already has some identity as a scout class

[opaque wolf]

grapple is very good with teamwork but invis just kinda sucks rn outside of cheeky kills

[viscid carbon]

But then you'd just have WH sniper shitters running rampant

[opaque wolf]

lights already got sonar grenades they don’t need more wall hacks

[stoic garden]

i agree

[indigo nexus]

Well, it’s gonna suck wherever it’s not useful, but I think you’re underselling it. Vanish bomb is so popular for a reason and that’s a lot weaker than invis

[viscid carbon]

What are they even gonna do with thermal vision

[indigo nexus]

Also, some of the best teams used invis sometimes in the late stages of the grand major, which I didn’t expect but was interesting.

[opaque wolf]

eh i’d argue vanish is more powerful than invis because of its teamplay potential

[stoic garden]

and because it's a gadget

[indigo nexus]

Heavies and to a lesser extent mediums don’t benefit very well from the invis effect in my experience, they’re a lot easier to see than lights

But yeah, that’s an important consideration

[opaque wolf]

areas like seoul hospital is a lot easier to push with vanish

[viscid carbon]

Do you guys think vanish is worth picking over glitch or sonar?

[opaque wolf]

not over glitch but def over sonar

[stoic garden]

i play cloak so i dont really ever see myself using vanish

[opaque wolf]

glitch is just kinda necessary with the current heavy + healing meta

[viscid carbon]

I use Dash and then I feel Infuser and Gateway are mandatory

[vocal stone]

If ur stacked then sonar could step down for vanish

[indigo nexus]

I do myself, I find I can’t do so well as a light without that get out of jail free card :p

[stoic garden]

i hate having to run infuser if i want to be competitive lmao

[viscid carbon]

Giving up the Infuser and Gateway makes me feel too selfish

[opaque wolf]

i wish it got removed or never added, i hate its design

healing isn’t fun to fight against

[stoic garden]

i'd be ok with it (eh) if the other gadgets had a similar level of utility, uptime or at least effectiveness

[vocal stone]

But i still run infuser, sonar and glitch even in full stack when i play light, it's still useful to see people through walls lol

[stoic garden]

can pyro nade deal more impact damage please

[viscid carbon]

Infuser just heals too much in too short a time

[opaque wolf]

this and also make gas grenade explode on impact

[viscid carbon]

RPM nerf is the adjustment they need to do

[opaque wolf]

i actually made a giant ass list of balance changes of like to see and that’s on there

[viscid carbon]

It's 800 fucking RPM bro, at 14 heal per shot

Almost P90 time-to-heal lol

[stoic garden]

🔥

[opaque wolf]

if you wanna take a look thru

[vocal stone]

Embark done robbed medium when they introduced h+

[viscid carbon]

I love being forced into heal slaving my heavy as medium with zero mobility or survivability

atp just play light with infuser and gateway and you already do what medium does arguably even better too

and then you have dash and another gadget slot to boot

[stoic garden]

i agree with most things, goo grenade should stay the same imo, pike would probably do better with 50 dmg but lower rpm and same range, not sure

idk about the rpg change, i'd rather they just nerfed dmg back to 100 and increased enviro damage to let it oneshot goo again, otherwise it's just c4 lite

[viscid carbon]

a gadget slot that you don't have to run goo nade on

[opaque wolf]

i hate fighting goo grenade its such a cowardly gadget, i want it to be more focused on protection rather than a get out of jail free card; pike at 50 dmg is scary but lower rpm could work. RPG change is only cause of floating platforms but yea i agree

but ig if lights do go to 175 then 50 dmg pike wouldn't make a difference

[stoic garden]

i dont think goo getting one charge with lower cooldown would change the get out of jail thing too much different depending on the circumstances

[opaque wolf]

honestly too i didn't get to play with the goo nerfs so maybe when that comes back in 10.6 itll be better

[stoic garden]

besides, people use that shit for parkour a lot, the 2 charges are very valuable to that effect, lowering them and decreaasing cooldown will definitely decrease its combat utility a bit, but maybe will let people goo everything around the cashout more effectively? shouldn't that be left to goo gun?

i think i prefer goo nade to be more a burst goo thing than being closer to goo gun's consistent gooing

goo stun should be nerfed and probably should break from fire faster tho

[opaque wolf]

could also think about reducing the amount of goo the grenade releases

i don't like the gadget too cause its hard meta on medium, i want more variety

[stoic garden]

yea buff the useless shit

[viscid carbon]

Medium is just healbeam, fcar, goo, pad, fib or play another class

[vocal stone]

I hardly second demat and shockwave suggestions, because sometimes it feels like embark just encourages you to play only healbeam because it's the only mediums non-janky spec

[stoic garden]

embark doesnt like creative specs 😄

[viscid carbon]

Even then healbeam slows you to a crawl and has a hard range cap, both of which the Infuser don't have to deal with

[stoic garden]

1. slide
2. range cap yes, but it briefly goes through walls and requires nearly no aim whatsoever
3. quite a bit better uptime

i will agree that the surprise factor of nearly killing a heavy and then seeing their hp be back to full is quite... valuable, but it doesnt detract from heal beam that much imo

[opaque wolf]

infuser is annoying cause you can make a heavy tank like 500+ damage before dying

shit needs its rate of fire nerfed

[viscid carbon]

True on 2 and 3 but with infuser you can dash and yeet yourself around while healing an obscene amount of hp in a single second

[stoic garden]

yea i mean, you can run a spec and still use infuser, it's not balanced

[viscid carbon]

And you also have the option of staying further away and healing without putting yourself at risk

[stoic garden]

emitter's healing might be infinite, but it's breakable, semi low range and tops at 20 hp/s after the small 10hps delay

[viscid carbon]

Emitter is balanced and has many counters

[stoic garden]

i love emitter so much

[opaque wolf]

emitter is the one heal gadget im okay with

[stoic garden]

it's the right kind of A tier gadget, not to be used everywhere, but real fun when paired with a fitting build and a willing team

[opaque wolf]

cause it doesn't fucking make you invincible and is counterable unlike h+

[vocal stone]

And it's reshapable, you can't unfortunately data reshape light, and i wish i could

[stoic garden]

also, the change where they made it deployable midair made it nearly useless on sloped rooftops, shit doesnt attach to them anymore

i used that strat a lot personally

[viscid carbon]

Imagine if data reshaper could "hack" and disable infuser and healbeam

[stoic garden]

thermal vision ass shit, i dont want a single gadget hard countering a spec... ignore turret lmfao

[viscid carbon]

Unfortunately though that won't do much to the former

Since it just heals 280 hp in like 1 second

[opaque wolf]

turret is a whole other beast to deal with lol, idk why they nerfed its viewing radius this season

[viscid carbon]

HLL is also so regarded if you think about it

[stoic garden]

with the t?

[opaque wolf]

definetly, all the lights do is pocket the heavy and he doesnt die

[viscid carbon]

If the heavy steals you somehow have to deal 910 damage to kill them 😭 😭 😭

[vocal stone]

It's actually a cool suggestion, but it kinda gets into glitch trap territory

[stoic garden]

also data reshaper is lurking in A tier already, i'd rather we dont buff it further

[opaque wolf]

yea reshaper is fine rn

realistically id want every gun and gadget to be A tier in terms of balance

ofc that’s not gonna happen but oh well

[stoic garden]

it'd be crazy if shit like cl40 was A tier

[opaque wolf]

i mean it could if they just rewarded accurate shots and reduced its self damage

nerf its splash damage, buff its grenade velocity so it’s easier to hit people directly

[stoic garden]

absolutely

but like, why make it an explosive weapon atp

the recent nerf made its splash damage nearly nonexistent

i still think that linear blast radius damage falloff was a bad change

[opaque wolf]

i mean i got the feeling that the cl40 event was to test something like that for the main game

like how the heaven event was to test spear / sledge

[stoic garden]

it had actual aoe there

[tardy light]

Nuh uh. Look down and deploy it. It still sticks. You just need to look down at the floor to do so

[opaque wolf]

also with like MGL if they made it like demoman’s launcher it could be great

[tardy light]

the deploy mid air change is great imo but I’m quite sad about the size reduction. I like big balls

[whole light]

Yo guys

Do you think that the sword and throwing knife in the light class is too op

[tardy light]

No

[stoic garden]

No

[opaque wolf]

sword is bad rn and throwing knifes are balanced

[whole light]

Alr

[chilly granite]

honestly I low key think tks are bad

you pay an insanely high cost in viable engaugment range

literally no other weapon has a hard cap on range in the same way as tks

and I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze

the problem here is that the game doesn't really care what weapon you use

gadget usage and teamplay is more significant than weapon type or usage in 99% of situations

[steady jolt]

They have solid damage, amazing hip fire accuracy, and infinite sustain, but the downsides make them just... mediocre

[chilly granite]

it is probably better for the health of the game that projectile weapons are as a whole underwhelming, even with mastery, as that means controller players who can't manage the projectile will not feel left out/persecuted

but tks are really not good

bow is bad too imho, but at least it's more competative in its weight class than the tks

the tks tryna compete with m11 and xp

bow is trying to compete with sr84, matter mainly, which I think it's fairly competative with

and then also somewhat with arn/93r/lh1, which I think it's falling behind by a fair margin

[fossil elk]

I feel like the dagger is more broken than usual
Backstabs don’t register half the time and I just had 5 back to back face stabs

[chilly granite]

most backstabbers aren't backstabbers but instead dashstabbers and dashstabbers can be countered easily if you're actually good

most people when they counter dash stabbers don't realize tehy need to account for lag, so they turn around too late

[gusty gale]

winch claw is a geat counter at dash if you can hit them

[chilly granite]

but yeah

like, if you put tks in a bundle with matter, sh1900, m11, xp

then I think it's pretty clear that it's the worst of the bunch

the matter, even sh, can do reliable chip damage at range which just ins't possbile with the tks

the m11 and xp can do more than just chip damage at range

and that means you're not fighting all in

the tks limited range means that 90% of the time, you're hard committed

and their slow cyclic rate means misses, which are likely due to projectile nature, are extremely punished

tks are kinda like sh in that they're extremely powerful against poorly cooridnated teams, in a way that matter/m11/xp aren't, though

if the playerbase of the finals was better at positioning and gamesense in general, it would be uncontroversial that the tks are ass

the bow is worse than the matter, and not even in the conversation with sh/m11/xp in cqb
bow vs sr84 is complicated. sr84 has a lot of benefits vs teh bow though. and both are just worse than the lh1 by a long shot

the lh1 is the correct answer if you want a good long range weapon on light, but it's not as fun as the bow or sr84

bow dps being worst in class is a problem, espeically since it has the highest skill floor and ceiling for hitting that peak dps lol

bow is better than tks because at least you have a good variety of range choices, so you can get powerful chip damage in and support teammates from a greater variety of positions, where the tks positioning is fairly obvious and chip damage is non existant

[glossy sun]

It's just the Damage is Ridiculous I'm over here Trying to defend myself with charge and Lewis gun and yet Still takes only 4 hits to kill a Heavy With/without Lunge.

[vocal flume]

if you are on pc and you do the lunge, you can move the mouse back and forth so it like flicks super fast it will count more of the lunge hits

[indigo nexus]

wdym? You can't hit a player multiple times with one lunge in any circumstance

[glossy sun]

I'm not a Sword user And I don't care about picking it up

I feel disgusted even touching it. Lol

[vocal flume]

saw a video in the top 5, he dashed and just went left and right and demolished like 3 people at once

[indigo nexus]

oh, if you mean regular multihit, then yeah, moving your camera helps

it's not about the speed, it's just about making sure the hitbox touches everyone

[chilly granite]

since theres fov lock now it's almost certainly just as easy on controller as on mnk

And you don't need to move your camera at all, if your angle is correct to start

you can also use dash to correct your angle too

[indigo nexus]

sword's probably easier on controller currently since if you never flick your camera too fast, you won't really be affected by the serverside camera lock system messing up your aim to the same extent

[chilly granite]

tbh wiggling mouse is a skill issue

most good swords are just aiming well and using dash if the enemy counters their lunge with movement

[tardy light]

It’s ridiculous how many times I’ve beat a sniper with the lh1 at their range. Obviously could just be a skill issue on their part. But it really feels like a complete upgrade

[chilly granite]

nah it is

the skill floor of the sniper is lower than the skill floor of the lh1 so the lh1 is allowed to be stronger

[tardy light]

though one time in ranked I met a terrifying sniper who never missed and it was fucking oppressive, tbh he might have just been hacking tho

[chilly granite]

almost certainly, I've played against ruby snipers and they were missing a decent % lol

the arn is the biggest joke imho

like it's not uncommon to see snipers get bullied by arns

the arn has way too little recoil for it to be balanced tbh

like the penalty for a missed shot on the arn is tiny becuase each bullet is quite low damage compensated withj good firerate, where almost all other ranged weapons have a relatively high penalty for a miss

long range*

like the akm and fcar are much more punishing on missed shots than arn

and they have more recoil too, so it's harder to just prefire a sniper and bully them out

[tardy light]

akm is so hard at range lol, but I love the extra ammo indoors

[chilly granite]

the arn should really have 20 dmg/bullet or 23dmg/bullet and smaller mag/lower fire rate to compensate

[indigo nexus]

The mag size has a drastically larger impact than this does if you're comparing to other rapid fire weapons.

[chilly granite]

make it feel more like an assault rifle rather than a super long range smg

[chilly granite]

when we're talking about vs light, the mag size isn't dramatically relevent here

if you're prefiring a light you only need 10 bullets to kill with bodyshots so you're not really mag limited

[fossil elk]

I’m using Invis

[indigo nexus]

Still gonna dwarf the differences made by the damage/firerate thing, if you were really hitting pretty much all of your shots both factors would shrink massively

[tardy light]

have you ever played team fortress? 🤔

[chilly granite]

the ttk difference of a missed shot is larger if each shot is a larger amount of damage for the same dps

and with the soft recoil of the arn, it's only really 1 or 2 bullets they'll miss once theyre on target

[fossil elk]

Yeah, and I suck at it. I’m not good at the boomer shooter engine, also known as source

[indigo nexus]

Yeah, but a singular missed shot on either weapon that was in consideration would not be a reasonable comparison, as that means something different for them both

[tardy light]

boomer?!

[fossil elk]

Boomer

[chilly granite]

I mean, there's a lot of shit that goes into making the arn opressive

[indigo nexus]

The difference here is only in that, as accuracy decreases, the importance of the lack of time delay associated with the first shot fired in a TTK-fight also decreases due to the higher number of overall shots, and that makes high-damage low-firerate weapons get worse with worse accuracy, as that time delay skip was a bigger contributor to their TTK than it was for the other

If you're comparing two guns that each shoot a lot of bullets throughout the fight then even if accuracy is really low the difference isn't really gonna be perceptible

[chilly granite]

I mean, in a light vs light, evne with the arn, the number of shots to kill is very low, so it's relatively important

it's 7 shots to kill with 20 damage, vs 9 with 17 dmg, which is a big % increase in the ttk on a single missed shot

like, if we're tlalking about a heavy vs fcar or arn, then the difference is minute

but because light is so squishy, the ttk difference on even small increases in per shot damage make a significant difference in how a weapon feels to fight

[indigo nexus]

Well that's the problem, "single missed shot" is not important here, that means nothing as you're comparing two different things between the guns. One missed shot on one is not the same as one missed shot on the other

If you're 50% accurate then the FCAR is getting a 1.7% advantage from its higher damage / lower STK on light bodyshots

which isn't nothing, but I hope you can see why I think mag sizes are a way bigger deal even on lights

[chilly granite]

I mean you're also ignoring that I already said that most of the problem is that it has literally no recoil so it's relatively much easier to land those shots

[indigo nexus]

I'm not debating that, that's fine

[chilly granite]

and I don't really agree that mag sizes are that good of a balance tool for contorlling ranged output, like, you're usally gonna be prefiring and reloadoing a fair amount anywaY?

I think the biggest problem the game has is that all weapons are too good on range which is why the meta is roofsitting

[indigo nexus]

Yeah, my thinking was just that even in such a case the damage per shot thing is gonna be a smaller factor (because having to fire more shots makes it less significant), until it gets to the point where you can actually peek between shots in which case it becomes very important again

[chilly granite]

like people talk about highground advantage like it's actually real but it's not? a significant part of highground advantage irl is the mechanical force of climbing the ground, but the finals doesn't have that

the advantage of highground is much moreso about roofs giving advantageous angles that allow you to chip, retreat in a cycle without the enemy having easy ways to punish it

if short range weapons were more useless at range, then it would be way less of a problem since you wouldn't be able to get reliable chip without bringing ranged weapons, which the enemy could then counter by bringing cqb weapons

[chilly granite]

I mean yes, that's kinda my point, I think 20/23 damage on teh ARN is a small enough nerf that it wouldn't make it overly weak or useless

I wasn't saying it was a significant or powerful nerf, but just a subtle rebalancing to make it feel more like an assault rifle and less like a ranged smg

and I think it would help it be impactful at range even with bad recoil

[indigo nexus]

20/23? I am confused

oh, you mean rebalancing it around a higher damage value?

[chilly granite]

yes, rebalancing around 20 or 23 damage to put it more inline with medium and heavy intermediate cartidge weapons

--

the chimera is a good example tbh

it's balanced as if it's a cqb weapon, with quite short optimal range, but the effective lack of recoil beyond the first shot means it ends up being competative to the pike in distance

[indigo nexus]

then the phrasing "nerf" seems a bit odd without being specific on how that would be done

[chilly granite]

bump up the recoil and give it 25/25 ammo, 20 or 23 bullet damage

probably 20 would be correct, putting it in line with akm and m60

vert recoil is fine, horizontal is the problem, the horizontal is effectively non existant, and the vertical is highly consistnet

[indigo nexus]

deterministic recoil as a balancing tool seems awkward to me in general, honestly, as it won't work well on players who take the time to learn it thoroughly

[chilly granite]

drop the firerate to keep the dps in the same realm

[chilly granite]

BIIIIG AGREEE

spread is much better as a balancing tool since it's not controllable as a player

[indigo nexus]

But most people in this community do NOT like the idea of partially random recoil

[chilly granite]

m11 is the best example, some m11 players up in ruby can laser with it even at extreme range

I don't think recoil needs to be randomised at all, I think just giving more dramatic spread on all weapons to control their effective range is good

and non-deterministic spread is also good cough cough repeater

like the akimbos are imho the most balance weapon in the game

[indigo nexus]

I prefer random recoil to spread as there's actually a skill in controlling it, but you just can't feasibly cancel it out, which I think most people would prefer to it being totally out of their hands. More importantly, it feels nice as controlling it engages your mind to a greater degree than... well, nothing. It's an excercise in hand-eye coordination as opposed to either nothing or reproducing patterns from memory.

[chilly granite]

spread that is (slightly larger than intended target at intended range) is also good for rewarding precise aim, as being dead center will result in more hits than being off center

that's likely why they don't do it, as the controller players relying on aim assist would suffer

I mean, spread isn't out of your hands, if you just aim more precisely your odds of a hit go up

but aim slowdown is somewhat a problem

[indigo nexus]

Yeah, but this also applies to recoil that you can't completely control, so I don't think that's a factor that highlights a clear difference, at least not one that I think I'd 'feel' in-game. When you have to deal with randomised horizontal recoil you are always rewarded for keeping your crosshair as central as you can.

[chilly granite]

spread + aim slowdown aim assist results in controller players being directly disadvantaged

unless you adjust the aim slowdown, in which case it results in controller players likely being even more advantaged than current aim asist

[indigo nexus]

that seems to imply a fair midpoint

[chilly granite]

the fair midpoint is controller players not using aim assist lol

[indigo nexus]

I don't have a good intuition for aim assist though as I've never played on console

[chilly granite]

actaully developing skill? noooo

I mean I don't think aim assist should exist tbh

espeically in a tracking based game, controller is not as much of a disadvantage as people think imho

when you're talking about tracking a target for a period of time, having input be a rotational speed rather than an x/y coordinate is a significant advantage

[indigo nexus]

I would think that's something game developers have figured out fairly accurately

[indigo nexus]

If joysticks could be controlled by the same muscular mechanism over the same physical distance that mice can move over, then I would definitely agree, but this definitely isn't one-sided

[chilly granite]

I mean, you can buy non-thumb joysticks lol

and as using a stupid high mouse sensitivity is a mistake that results in worse outcomes that many pc gamers make

so to should using a joystick with effectively a stupid high sensitivity resulting in worse outcomes be a choice that joystick gamers can make at their own cost

valve games and rainbow 6 seige have no aim assist

and valve is the company I would've expected to do the most detailed inquisition as to if it's a good idea or not

valve has invested a lot into improving controllers

--

i mean, you gotta consider perverse incentives

aim assist is good for encouraging your game to be played and making it popular among controller players, even if it's the wrong decision w/r/t fairness

a lot of people will appreciate a free aimhack regardless of it's important on the perspective of fairness

[indigo nexus]

I have never seen one so I'm going to conjecture that this isn't a meaningful portion of the market

I also did not say anything about using a very high sensitivity

[chilly granite]

I mean, having input be rotational speed is pure advantage

that advantage may be outweighed by other aspects

honestly the biggest problem with controller for me is not the joystick as an input but much more so, the button layout making doing anything other than moving and shooting impossible

https://www.xbox.com/en-GB/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller

[indigo nexus]

I didn't know this though, that's interesting. Though those games as I understand are a lot more about lining up shots than a heavy intertwined movement + broad-arc tracking situation.

[chilly granite]

the traditional fighting game and flight sim joystick i'm sure your familar with

[chilly granite]

r6s yes, csgo/tf2 not really, tf2/csgo console were somewhat market failures

r6s competative scene is dominated by controller thoguh

[indigo nexus]

This is true, I just don't really have any way to understand in what cases this would be a real factor and how severe it would be.

[chilly granite]

mostly about preaiming a location and holding angle

[chilly granite]

I'm certain it's a factor for embark becuase of what they said about the crossbow not being a projectile weapon

chosing to make the new crossbow a hitscan weapon just so that it's easy to use for aim assist players....

that's simple pandering tbh

espeically since I know controller players who use and enjoy the bow

[indigo nexus]

I am not. This could be related as you've described, but I don't have any evidence to suggest that it is as either case seems perfectly feasible

[slow linden]

Isn't moving and shooting all you can do anyway?

Not you specifically but like that's all there is to playing a game

[chilly granite]

I probably phrased that poorly

i'm sure it's a consideration, I'm not sure it's a factor that they're actually basing their decisions on

like, I'm confident aim assist and console players are relevent to the discussions they're having about game decisions

[indigo nexus]

The overall experience for console players, for sure

[chilly granite]

yeah

[indigo nexus]

just not "how do make sure console players have an unfair advantage to make them like our game more / to compensate for how they're all, like, twelve or something"

[chilly granite]

yeah

[grave spire]

Buff the model1887

[grave spire]

It's underpowered at this point

[slow linden]

You're a light main,won't you explode if it's buffed?

[grave spire]

I am a medium main rn

[chilly granite]

wasd/pew pew is easy

but specialisation and jumping and gadget swapping is hard af on controller d

it's probably harder since my contorller was a steamdeck whcih weighs a metric fuckton

[grave spire]

Maybe add some damage or range into it

[chilly granite]

so i gotta put a lot of fingers into holding it rather doing some hand contortion to press al the buttons at the same time

but I think appoh was saying that most pro heavies play mnk becuase gadgets are easier? and i was feeling that

[grave spire]

It is

[chilly granite]

tbh

[indigo nexus]

I think the model is probably okay now? I used it recently and it seemed to feel pretty good, and based on its balance pattern I think embark thinks they nudged it into a state that's pretty okay

[chilly granite]

there is in my mind no world where controller aim assist isn't op, and controller and mnk is balanced

because gadgets are way more important than aim in this game

and to make up for crippling your gadget use, you gotta have something to compensate

[grave spire]

Still it's potential is not matched

[indigo nexus]

5 buffs since that big nerf

[chilly granite]

wait for the 175/250/325 to go live, and the model will get buffs

[indigo nexus]

Oh yeah, I imagine it'll be made a little better then too

[grave spire]

Who needs 7 bullets if you can wipe a full team with 6 bullets with a higher damage nd accurate shots

[grave spire]

Are they sure what are the community feedbacks about it?

[chilly granite]

community feedback doesn't matter

[indigo nexus]

bow-kun, what do you think about the respec order heavy change? Personally I'm not sure about how this will mesh with melee or if it was really that helpful to breakpoints in the first place, so my stance is "I don't know"

[chilly granite]

it's the right choice and the data will bear that out

the only thing is I don't know if embark has the balls to do it in a timely fashion

[grave spire]

I hope they don't mess this around like prev patches

[chilly granite]

either light needs more than 175 hp, or heavy hp needss to be nerfed too

the fundamental is that heavy can't be 100% or more hp than a light

[indigo nexus]

ah, so what you're saying is, give heavy 349 hp...

[chilly granite]

and I think 325/10% move speed felt fine

[indigo nexus]

I was too busy to play, sadly.

[grave spire]

175 is fine if they do more then no use of lights, it's often used for movement playstyle

[chilly granite]

it didn't feel overly squishy

the greater movespeed was usually worth more than 25hp imho

[grave spire]

Exactly

[chilly granite]

like, a heavy with 10% extra movespeed will often get into cover before that extra shot would land

and that results in the heavy feeling stronger if anything

a heavy who blunders their position is a lot more vulnerable thoguh, which is nice

before, when heavies blundered position, they would survive way too often via dome shield and 350hp buying enough time for their team to rescue them

325 was a little less which meant it was easier to burst a heavy before the h+ came in, if they were out of position with respect to their team

I'm like 99% certain the data they got from the playtest looks good

like one of my friends playing cl40 actaully though that heavy hp was buffed becuase he was struggling to kill them with the buffed move speed

most of them couldn't notice a change

people massively overstate the impact of hp pools in this game lol

like seriously, they could've just given light 180hp and it would've broken nothing

embark needs to grow some balls and just yolo some decisions

if people leave the game then the game was probably shit anyway

if one change breaks the game then the game had a problem

I still think the biggest problem in this game is map design

[indigo nexus]

were melee heavies seen as a problem? I wonder how that would tie in with the melee rework...

[chilly granite]

nah

a good melee heavy would probably benefit, but a melee heavy who played incautiously dies much faster

but yeah, pretty mcuh all maps have the issue of being corridor shooters where it's easy to get bottlenecked at some point

fortune and skyway are awful for it

fortuens a good example actually, one of the strongest holds is actually on the lowground, but it's not actually highground advantage that people are abusing

it's defender advantage combined with bottleneck heavy maps

most of the maps are very much designed to encourage the usage of gadgets but that does in turn violate their competative viability

---

and honestly the craving for new maps, gadgets and weapons is such a good belweather for poor balance

like, there's such a selection of gadgets and weapons, that if it was balanced well, you'd almost never see the same loadouts twice, since it's combinatorial

but the fundamental truth is that balance is so poor that you rarely see most gadgets and even when you do see them, their impact is so slight that it's not that interesting or entertaining and so it still feels the same as every other game

[fossil elk]

How are you supposed to be stealthy with the cloaking device when it’s so loud

[slow linden]

I think combos are harder to learn on controller sure but after the lengthy learning process for goo gun I hit them fairly reliably,I do forget I can do them pretty often though and it gets me killed quite a lot

I need to be better about that

[glossy sun]

Stealth does less noise when you stand still. And makes you less visible.

I sometime use Dagger and people Doesn't even see me when standing and I just let them pass for a Backstab.

I feel like Stealth should be used Defensively

[indigo nexus]

Don’t use it to sneak up on people, use it to hide in plain sight

[glossy sun]

And Offense in long range

Unlike those Stealth and M11 Rushing in... Probably had a good weed session before playing

[broken mulch]

be at weird angles with long range weapons close range is unreliable at best

[fossil elk]

I’m using dagger most times I just run around corners like spy tf2

[glossy sun]

Not entirely since I stand still and Let the Guy Pass before backstabbing.

Or any burst weapon like throwing Daggers...

[night dew]

Does cloaking muffle your footsteps?

[broken mulch]

if ur using dagger dash is 100x better

[broken mulch]

no it does the opposite you're way louder

[glossy sun]

PFFT If I want to be dasher I would just use sword.

And yet I wouldn't cause I hate sword.

[night dew]

Are footsteps treble or bass coded?

[indigo nexus]

Yes but the sound that replaces them is louder

[indigo nexus]

Dash is even more important to dagger than it is to sword

You can’t do dash-through backstabs without dash, and that’s the main way dagger can kill people, whereas sword just uses it for regular movement / evasion like everything else for the most part

[glossy sun]

Yeah aka the Dash stab Ive already seen people doign that garbage and it never works on me
Eat My sledge.

[broken mulch]

cloak is literally the worst spec for dagger

shits even worse than grapple

[swift agate]

I mean yeah, you're on sledge. it doesn't work on you because you have a weapon that one shots in an area of effect

[glossy sun]

Sledge Area of effect

[swift agate]

yes. the sledge m2 is an aoe attack

[glossy sun]

No it doesn't.

[broken mulch]

no it 100% works on sledge if it doesnt its because they a: werent doing it right or b: the sledge moved their hitbox
also could be server issues

[indigo nexus]

Then it seems you haven't encountered good dagger players - which are a rarity, to be fair. Unless your winch is available there may be nothing you can do to reliably avoid it.

[swift agate]

it's not a large aoe, but it is objectively aoe. this is common knowledge about the weapon

[dry frigate]

What would you guys say is the best long range gun for heavy?

[broken mulch]

in fact its actually easier to do it on sledge because you can safely approach sledge

[glossy sun]

Lewis gun.
Also deagles

[broken mulch]

probably lewis gun yea

[dry frigate]

So ig have it in my reserves for longer range maps otherwise shak50?

[broken mulch]

deagles good if u can land headshots

[indigo nexus]

Most people do not use the term AOE to simply mean a non-point hitbox, it often refers to a radius of impact around a point

[glossy sun]

I do that mostly.

[dry frigate]

Is that the 2 handguns one

[broken mulch]

yes

[dry frigate]

I see ty guys

[lone trench]

what if medium had some shit like this

[swift agate]

which is what the sledge overhead swing is. most melees have non-point hitboxes following the arc of the swing but do not count as area of effect, but the sledgehammer overhead explicitly deals damage in a radius around the point where the attack hits and can deal damage to multiple enemies because it works on the same game logic as an explosion, not like other melee swings. it just has a much smaller radius with no falloff
https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/Sledgehammer#Overhead_Swing:~:text=swing.-,Overhead,range

[slow linden]

I WISH sledge was aoe and chargeable,but it'd not so yeah

[indigo nexus]

"the sledgehammer overhead explicitly deals damage in a radius around the point where the attack hits" - where are you getting this from?

As far as I'm aware it's just an arc shape that moves with the animation like the other melees

the right click attack is also one of the only melee attacks which cannot multihit...

[slow linden]

They explicitly removed multihit from the overhead so his argument doesn't even make sense

They shouldn't have removed it,but they did

[broken mulch]

they really shouldnt have removed it cause if a sledge can hit multiple targets with a low range swing while being the slowest class in the game then js let it happen

[spring oasis]

Why is there no bipod attachment for the dagger?

[stoic garden]

good question

[kindred gorge]

scoped silenced dagger with bipod

like the sledge skin

[viscid carbon]

nah

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/battlefield/images/c/c0/BF4_C100.png/revision/latest?cb=20141119033247

https://tenor.com/view/bffs-soldiers-chopper-gif-13800027

[scarlet basalt]

Buff the M26 matter

[eager wasp]

they already did when it was already good really

[scarlet basalt]

Oh

[kindred gorge]

model or cerb

[viscid carbon]

model 100%

[eager wasp]

model, cerb if you wanna stomp on casual lobbies

[kindred gorge]

No like the patch note

[eager wasp]

oh, thats uhhhhh matter

[kindred gorge]

I see

does 100 enviroment damage actually change anything meaningful

[eager wasp]

i think that helps break walls/ziplines? i THINK it includes ziplines but i could be wrong

just a QOL change really, just so if you NEED/WANT to break something you can do it a little easier

[kindred gorge]

Zipline maybe but like you aren't breaking a wall with matter

[indigo nexus]

it's for when the demat user traps you under the monaco house stairs

[scarlet basalt]

Trueeee

[kindred gorge]

is it possible to just get stuck indefinitely?

[noble saddle]

Fcar users I'm thinking the best way to shoot this gun close range to slide into crouch up close provided that it's a 1v1 confirm or deny

[stoic garden]

breaks walls in like 3 mags instead of the 5-6

most weapons need one billion mags

[indigo nexus]

well in those locations (and a couple others on other maps) there are spaces with no exits that you can be trapped in and therefore be forced to either break the wall down the slow way or have a teammate save you

takes like 30-45 seconds to get through a solid wall with most weapons

[noble saddle]

I think that the matter doing more environment damage implications (if that's what we are talking about) is that it blows up canisters more reliably

[slow linden]

If three lights are packed into a can like corn lemme cream them like corn fr

[weak ore]

they should add laser sights, it doesn't change how the weapon function just makes it looks cool

[broken mulch]

would give your position away if ur holding an angle

[viscid carbon]

make it client side only then

[spring oasis]

That is too much, just a bipod for the dagger

[vestal juniper]

What if
The light had a gadget that can be placed on an ally
and you can swap places with that ally 🤔
But you cant give or place it on an ally without the ally having a button input to accept it

[tardy light]

Sounds hilarious

[glossy sun]

Cool way to troll

[tardy light]

“Light around this corner!” minigun heavy appears

[glossy sun]

But also comes with Griefing.

[compact tundra]

That would unironically be amazing for sword light and make short range weapons combo really well together. I could play sword light, push a 2v1, get some quick damage, and then swap with my buddy on flamethrower around a corner for just massive bait and switches that could wipe teams

[indigo nexus]

Not sure about how fun that would really be to play with but that’s a really cool idea

[compact tundra]

I think he fun in a gadget like this would be the shit you could pull off with it. Like obviously the boring use is to roll out your heavies quickly by getting to a difficult spot that's good for your heavy and then swapping with them, but this would be really cool when used for combos or to jump people. Like you could start a fight with someone while your heavy follows behind and then swap so now they're face to face with a heavy and your running in from where your heavy was. It be an amazing jumping tool

[glossy sun]

Are lights considered Halflings?

[compact tundra]

To prevent griefing we could have it where the other person is the one that swaps. So like for my example the heavy will have a bind to swap with the light, and if the light pulls out the gadget to try to swap spots it doesn't swap them it just pings the heavy telling them to press the swap button.

[compact tundra]

No they are not legally distinct hobbits

[glossy sun]

Cmon. It's Great And you can toss them around

[compact tundra]

Honestly I wouldn't mind some shit like this but it wouldn't be the most effective. If we do get this as a spec or gadget or whatever the fuck it'd be, I'd also want to have the fastball special

[glossy sun]

Using your light as a Projectile and then you can throw hands when no one is Mounted

[steel narwhal]

Enough said.

[steel narwhal]

A BT throw you could do with a heavy would be sick

[glossy sun]

I wish this Season had stuff for every build.

[glossy sun]

Isn't this just the MP5/XP-54?

[steel narwhal]

Yeah but sexier

It would be a skin

[spring oasis]

It would be cool when you had an anti-grav cube was out you could equip a pad that would allow you to change the effect from low-grav like what it normally does to high grav which in my mind would pull everything straight down and slow movement while within the field

[glossy sun]

I do wonder... If rockets would be main weapon...

[glossy sun]

Imagine it had a mode where it sets high gravity and pull down people with force causing drop damage.

[alpine sphinx]

This is wrong, sledge overhead can only deal damage to one target

it was originally able to hit multiple but embark deemed melee weapons too strong in melee range

either light should not have glitch, or heavy should get a glitch gadget

light is such an unsufferable fucking class

🖕

[opaque wolf]

fun isnt it

[alpine sphinx]

other bracket had a tripple ruby team and 2 full diamond

[opaque wolf]

ranked needs to go from 24 players to 12 and thats a prime reason why

[alpine sphinx]

not necessarily, i dont mind longer queues if im just not matched against pretty much unbeatably opponents

im playing fucking sledge, why do i get matched against ruby players using meta loadouts man

[opaque wolf]

thats the problem though, with 24 players it needs to force ruby's into lesser ranks because finding 24 rubies / diamonds is a lot harder than finding 12 of them

you would get more accurate matchmaking to your current rank with 12

[alpine sphinx]

there were 4 teams in the tournament consisting of only diamond/ruby and the rest having 2 diamond each aside from my platinum only team

i am fairly certain the matchmaker could have made it more balanced with basically no change in queue time or maybe like 10s

with 4 teams there still would have been too much of a difference

[opaque wolf]

im saying those 4 teams should have been in the plat-gold range that you are in and it would have been a lot easier with 12 players instead of 24

the only reason ruby and diamond players are in your lobby is cause the game wants their matchmaking to be quick too and its difficult to find 24 rubies / diamonds vs plats

[south plinth]

Oof, were you seeded 8th at least? How much RS did you lose

[tranquil salmon]

What if aps turret could counter winch

Wouldn't that be a decent buff

[alpine sphinx]

gained like 300 thankfully cause we got second last in this hell of a lobby

but still not very fun match

[copper sand]

Have they said anything about the thermal vision rework?

[stoic garden]

zero

[proud mirage]

Loadout Idea:
Healing Beam
Riot Shield
Data Reshaper
Grenade
Flashbang

[grizzled nexus]

Ballistic knife when?

[kindred gorge]

I’d swap for demat personally but I dig it

[candid vessel]

M11 is at least 60% of that

Give it a mag size of 60 and make it do 7 damage

[candid vessel]

Glitch rpg would go kinda crazy

[candid vessel]

Ranked seedings are beyond stupid

Regardless of seeding it should be impossible to get to round 2 and lose rs

And winning the tournament with seeding 5 or below should give you minimum 2500 RS, not like the 1200 i just got

WHAT IS THISSSSSSS

this is why going anywhere is impossible

[candid vessel]

Because the time investment relative to the gains of a tournament is stupid

Just like the fact that the gamemode is perfectly optimised to get cucked by 3rd parties

And thus ranked should be H2H

Or at least ranked should exist as H2H aswell

[candid vessel]

I think all the gear is better when its working properly

[glossy sun]

What? what gun? where!?

[candid vessel]

Nowhere i guess ;-;

At least cns never fails me

[glossy sun]

The Slam.....
Pure Bliss~

[candid vessel]

The slam is the best part without question

[hard sundial]

[slow linden]

Legend

[analog pewter]

light should get a prop mimic gadget/spec that lets them transform into a random carriable
other players can pick them up while in this state

[simple coyote]

Can you use different inspect and deploy animations on the flip out flare dagger skin?

[tardy light]

No, because it has custom animations. Any weapon with custom animations cannot use the base animations or any of the different ones (like gravity check, knuckle roll, and slice view)

[simple coyote]

Damn the inspect sucks ass on the FF

[edgy estuary]

What if guardian turret could walk. Like what if it had a second mode where it walked a bit like a bug and patrolled a little area on a roof or floor, but could still be set to stationary, it would then be able to break out of goo so that would no longer be a counter. Just thinking of ways to improve it is all.

Terry wants to walk

[elder whale]

I agree with this #give terry legs

[edgy estuary]

It also should have a very small shield so it is an actual threat, mediums could use it more defensively, it is the only specialisation that can be removed by data reshaper. I feel that turret should be a gadget and data reshaper should be a spec, but that is just personal opinion, i’m sure some would find that outrageous

Yes #giveterrylegs

[bitter surge]

Do NOT sleep on the bfr

[flat igloo]

.

[slow linden]

I want to throw my red barrel dagger light into a teams backline

[vocal stone]

Lights should be able to piggy ride heavies

And mediums should be able to hold hands with other mediums

[quasi rapids]

loadout in this game dont change much my heavy loadout from 4 seasons ago is still meta

[slow linden]

Buff the qm of the throwing knives and change the qm animation for throwing knives to a stab

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif

[swift agate]

it would be cool to have unique qm animations for different weapons. different damage values would be interesting too, but I think other parts of some weapons would have to be nerfed to compensate. if weapons got unique quickmelee damage, obviously something like the throwing knives would be higher because it's a knife, but they don't really need that so there would have to be another change to the weapon to balance it out

[sudden pewter]

QM animations (weapon specific or otherwise) would be cool. I wouldn’t want to ruin the consistency of QM across the board with unique damage values however. It would add more aspects to weaponry Embark would have to balance, something they already struggle heavily with

[slow linden]

😈

[tardy light]

i just fought someone with 21k wins bruh

not 2.1k. twenty-one thousand. ive never seen higher before

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/zhang-yong-zhang-blast-gif-10313518446967107932

[slow linden]

Nuh uh

[glossy sun]

And this is the reason they want to give light HP buff Haha dumb light

[slow linden]

This was launch minigun

[sudden pewter]

I carried an entire Cashout game (my teammates were lvl 14/17) with the Minigun

It is beyond doubt my favorite weapon in the game and the ammo buff has put it into SSS tier for me

[slow linden]

Indeed

[sudden pewter]

Got my x6 S game with it and I intend to get more

[slow linden]

Have you been testing it with motion sensors?

[sudden pewter]

No

[slow linden]

You should

[sudden pewter]

• Mesh
• Minigun
• Healing Emitter
• Lockbolt
• Barricade

[glossy sun]

I noticed due to the Ammo.

[slow linden]

I do mesh or goo gun,flex slot,dome and motion sensors

[slow linden]

The dps and spread was also worse when it was added

[indigo nexus]

Only its environmental damage, its actual DPS was never touched

[glossy sun]

I know that

[slow linden]

It's effective dps went up because instead of having shotgun spread it has a reasonable amount of spread now

[sudden pewter]

Demolition damage, ammo, and accuracy were all adjusted since release

[slow linden]

Yea

And they were all wonderful changes,minigun could use a quality of life change or two to how fast it loses spin when swapping around but hey its still a great weapon,and there are higher priorities than that rn anyway,like fixing spear and mgl

[slow linden]

And we're back

[scarlet basalt]

Yay

[cunning slate]

we live?

I blame the Lights. They knew we were upset they got 25 extra hp.

[tardy light]

give a light an inch theyll take a mile

[cunning slate]

nah, they take the whole earth

[faint solstice]

are you all alright no u are all all left

[scarlet basalt]

Lmao

[cunning slate]

exactly

[candid vessel]

They better see how mad everyone is and never do any dumb shit like that ever again

[cunning slate]

we can only pray

[candid vessel]

Atp fixing the ranked points distribution should be their top priority

Coming second one tournament and then losing all those points in the next one is stupid

[candid vessel]

Because the time investment for getting to rounds 2 and 3 is so big

But no they’re too busy creating problems by fucking about with the health pool and ignoring the fact the pike is useless while letting the shak/m11/fcar/akm slip under the radar

And letting gas continue to be useless

[sudden pewter]

I just wanna be able to use gestures regardless of weapon state

[slow linden]

Being fully revved and one handing the minigun to eat a pepper or do one of those sound effects would be so cursed and I'd love it

I want to be able to toss a dome or a grenade or rocket and immediately be able to fire again because it hadn't lost spin yet

[sudden pewter]

I just wanna do the cowboy greeting while mowing my enemies down

[alpine sphinx]

didnt think it was possible but world tour matchmaking is low key worse than ranked matchmaking

[candid vessel]

I find that the opposite is true which is why i haven’t touched ranked since S1

Reward coins got me back tho and fuck me this shit is ass

[alpine sphinx]

queued one match of world tour just now, got into the sweatiest lobby imaginable with from what i could tell at least 2 teams consisting of diamond and up

[candid vessel]

Oh yeah everyone in WT is like diamond

[slow linden]

After the world tour changes the only people who play cashout anymore are comp players that have already reached their desired rank or are too scared to just play their mode and grind their mode

[alpine sphinx]

in world tour you dont even get compensation for a strong uphil battle

[candid vessel]

I find it more fun than ranked because usually u get good teammates for this reason

[candid vessel]

You barely do in ranked

[alpine sphinx]

i dont like the rules of world tour, no wipe penalty is ass and the modifiers often ruin melee gameplay

[candid vessel]

You need to get more RS for doing good across the board ngl

[candid vessel]

Yeah fair enough

[slow linden]

I find ranked more fun than regular cashout at this point because they're both played by the same people pretty much,ranked just has less counterpicking,I've seen equal amounts of griefing (grooming) in both though

On a serious note what kind of fucking loser griefs in regular cashout

[candid vessel]

Average finals match

I still think ranked should be H2H

Actually a skill based gamemode

[alpine sphinx]

this would be very bad for the game, all it would do is reinforce the current meta and make non viable weapons even less viable

some weapons need a bit of chaos to thrive, reducing chaos actively hurts those weapons

[slow linden]

People who think griefing takes skill when it's really just picking and choosing who you fight because you're too much of a coward to defeat all of your enemies with your own two hands are genuinely stupid

[opaque wolf]

h2h would be bad but i wanna see what 2 rounds would be like

[slow linden]

It would not at all be bad for the game

Replacing ranked would be bad,yes,but having head to head as a secondary ranked mode like how terminal attack used to be would be fine

[alpine sphinx]

yeah if it was an addition instead of replacement it would be fine

[candid vessel]

Yeah

[alpine sphinx]

maybe saphire or citrine as top 500 for blue or yellow variations of the gem skins

[candid vessel]

The opposite is also true for some weapons tho

[alpine sphinx]

ye but those are generally already in a really good spot

[slow linden]

I don't like that they removed terminal attack imo,they should have just let people heal instead of just permanently losing health

[candid vessel]

True

[slow linden]

I had so many good games of terminal attack,that was the one reason I hated it

[candid vessel]

I mean we have infuser and ball now aswell

[slow linden]

There was no regen either was my point

[alpine sphinx]

it reinforced the most boring aspect of the game and just forced long range engagements

[slow linden]

Demat made defense impossible too because you build a base around a point and then some fucking asshole just demats the ceiling and holds a head glitch

[alpine sphinx]

I want this

[sudden pewter]

H2H lacks the dynamism/chaos that The Finals prides itself on. The issue from Embarks perspective (as I understand it) is that the gamemode is too balanced. Every engagement will have a non-spectacular result.

If they make it the ranked gamemode the old guard that have been playing Cashout for 10 seasons could feel cheated.

[slow linden]

So the only other ranked gamemode that could return is terminal attack is basically what I'm gathering from this

Terminal attack hasn't really been gone that many seasons

If they just let us regen and heal it'd be a decent gamemode

Honestly just regen would be fine

[slow linden]

Better yet put the amethyst skins in the alternate ranked mode

[slow linden]

Also there are people who have ruby skins from Terminal attack

[vocal flume]

arn needs a nerf, i dont get why it deals high damage, big mag, no recoil and just melts everything all ranges, like what you supposed to do as a heavy playing starlight hollow

[candid vessel]

I mean thats why its good for ranked imo. Currently the correlation between skill and rank is nonexistent because you need as much luck as skill to get anywhere

[candid vessel]

Starlight hollow is just ass ngl

[candid vessel]

Goes hard

[vocal flume]

literally the most optimized map in the entire game

[stoic garden]

https://tenor.com/view/long-awaited-update-alien-2034-gif-1394462935056377593

[sudden pewter]

Not disagreeing. I loved H2H. But I can’t imagine Embark sponsoring it as it lacks the spectacle of Cashout

[slow linden]

Starlight hollow is a fine map,buildings are too fragile but I like the map

[candid vessel]

The spectacle is what simultaneously makes cashout super fun but terrible for ranked imo

[candid vessel]

I mean maybe its good in pb i just hate it in tdm

[sudden pewter]

I agree. Any standard competitive gamemode generally has static or at least predictable engagements which allow for skill expression in how they’re handled, Cashout is dynamic to a fault

[slow linden]

Fuuuuck tdm,tdm isn't there for your enjoyment it exists only to facilitate a fast track to the grind,it's not supposed to be fun or enjoyable,it can be,but I doubt it was ever in mind when they made it

[sudden pewter]

Griefing isn’t a problem in H2H, and the lower player count means tighter skill averages in games. (Ideally)

[slow linden]

Not just isn't a problem,can't be a problem

[candid vessel]

I only play it for gear xp

[slow linden]

It'd be the perfect secondary ranked mode,terminal attack would have been but they fucked it up by somehow making a search and destroy mode wrong

[candid vessel]

REF

REF HAVE A WORD IM BEGGING

[candid vessel]

Yh fr fr

[slow linden]

Gng drink more milk and eat your veggies wtf are you doin

Milkless individual

[sudden pewter]

Not just built different, built incorrectly

[candid vessel]

Charge and slam ❌
Charge and scuff the paint ✅

[slow linden]

Hop and make a mess

[slow linden]

Also you're a Chad for running Pyro nade on heavy

[candid vessel]

I love it sm its so goated

[slow linden]

I run it because there are combos with goo gun that make roof campers lives a living hell and as a flamethrower main they're my greatest enemy

[candid vessel]

Even if it didn’t level up super fast it would definitely still be my highest level thing

[candid vessel]

I love its versatility

It can do like so many different things

[slow linden]

Yea

[slow linden]

Here's an old clip of one of my favorite Pyro nade kills

This is one of my favorite team wipes tho

[candid vessel]

Niiiiice

[candid vessel]

Very nice

Insane flamethrower skin too

https://tenor.com/view/the-finals-quemby-rutile-thumbs-up-holtow-gif-9291281097462307562

DAMN YOU TENOR

[slow linden]

It's the holtow sun one,it's bundle comes with a pyro nade and mine skin too,as well as a mini holtow sun charm

Kinda wish it had a goo grenade and goo gun skin too

[candid vessel]

Yh ik holtow is elite. I have the pyro mine skin from that set

[candid vessel]

If only

[candid vessel]

“Mods ban that guy. And blow up his fucking house”

[stoic garden]

find my pages

[slow linden]

You don't have the Pyro nade skin? It's the closest we have to a fireball

Mods,put him on 24 hour squat shifts in a cucumber field

[candid vessel]

Nah because i like using the lvl ones because i have it maxed out

Otherwise id use the mythic orf one probably

[slow linden]

Put it on shuffle

[candid vessel]

OH YEAH

i always forget that exists

[analog pewter]

see i know im cooking

[sudden pewter]

Lmao. Lol even.

[sudden pewter]

Just so more people are aware (because I wasn't) if we react with 🟥 it sends the message to a mod

[glossy sun]

An actual fire ball skin not a Sun in a bottle

[slow linden]

Yeah I want one but we're not getting it

[plucky spade]

New patch this thursday?

[vocal stone]

Update yeah, but im not sure about patch tbh, because it's right before mid season update (if 10.6 is going to be a mid season update ofc)

[plucky spade]

😞

[warm python]

let's hope shockwave fix or clarified the soft nerf

[vocal stone]

Atp they just have to, because they turned one of the best specs in the game into a doodoo in one single update

[warm python]

It was like the main new thing that should shock how ppl play but nah

I'm using it as my GREEN GIANT kobe aaah basketball loadout

Model + shockwave and the goal is simple
dunk ppl

[vocal stone]

I played the shit out of cerb+shockwave, i enjoy being a fat light

[warm python]

WE ARE DUNKERSSSSS

[vocal stone]

Hell yeah brother

[slow linden]

What are the patchnotes even

[vocal stone]

What patchnotes?

[slow linden]

Wasn't there a weekly update?

[vocal stone]

It's wednesday my man, a bit early

[slow linden]

The hell were people talking about earlier then scroll up a lil

[vocal stone]

Oh, it was about shockwave shadow nerf situation. That embark must come up with explanation in upcoming update about what the hell happened to the shockwave

[slow linden]

Ah

[slow linden]

Fair enough 👌

[viscid carbon]

Guys we aren’t getting shit this week other than a store update

Actual patches are tri-weekly, the next one being 10.6

[slow linden]

God forbid embark give their community what they ask for

[floral wigeon]

a random underused gun is going to get 1 extra bullet and a random gadget is going to have 1 second taken off its cooldown

[stiff vine]

it's new this time,
random underused specialization is getting nerfed

[alpine sphinx]

low gravity is the single worst fucking modifier cause it makes many weapons entirely useless

[astral grove]

the amount of times I died to it because it switched on mid-jump near the void

[slow linden]

Where have you been,haven't seen you here in quite some time

[stiff vine]

really struggling to enjoy this season

[indigo nexus]

hah, so validating

[muted condor]

I uninstalled this season finally

Between the last year of horrible balancing, shit matchmaking, the devs admitting they have no clue what they want to do with melee, cosmetics price increases, and the announcement of another Grand Major the game is not worth playing

[slow linden]

Fair

[slow linden]

Winchclaw must die

[muted condor]

I could care less about winch at this point

The entire game as a whole is just dog shit now

[slow linden]

I believe it's downfall started with Winchclaw

Wholeheartedly I really do.

[slate vapor]

tbf it was a placement match

[indigo nexus]

yeah, it was just amusing

I haven't played the game in a while so I am finding it insanely fun to trash on these silvers

[halcyon halo]

really love dagger but hate that this weapon is only playable with dash and goo, vanish, gate wish there was some more variation

has anyone had success with other gadgets?

[slow linden]

Cloak is playable ish,really only in tdm and pointbreak though where the gunfights are louder than the screaming of cloak

[indigo nexus]

It's a sort of joy that makes me feel out of breath, like I was just running. Quite interesting

[slow linden]

I've seen some nasty grapple dagger players too

[tardy light]

Unfortunately switching your loadout will just make dagger harder

[halcyon halo]

its great for some power shift fun but if you actually wanna climb it kinda sucks

[tardy light]

maybe you could try nulli or smth idk. but dash is kind of necessary

[halcyon halo]

yea💔 ive occasionally swapped vanish for nullifier or h emitter but it was always worse than just using vanish

[tardy light]

if they add a small teleport light spec, blink dagger would be cool asf

[halcyon halo]

ive thought about that but the shitstorm of angry redditors calling it unfair would immediately lead embark to remove the backstab entirely

[tidal cave]

Can we get a metre stick for a sword or dual blades skin? Would fit in perfectly with the crit writer pencil skin for dagger.

[tardy light]

goo players complaining enough to revert goo nerf 🫡

[slow linden]

No doubt about that,they should never have reworked dagger and gutted cloak

[warm pagoda]

NOW,tf better than Arc,keep on keep it on

[tardy light]

So true

[halcyon halo]

I think that dagger rework is fine for me as a dagger main but the hold down charge is incredibly unintuitive and new players always fuck it up

[slow linden]

It wasn't purely off our complaints,the nerf angered our God and broke the game in several places,it had to be reverted whether we wanted it or not,I'm glad it was reverted though,I really am

[tardy light]

broke the game? you mean just goo cocooning teammates during steal? what else happened

[halcyon halo]

They should make it charge faster and also do a full charge+release immediately if you click it just once removes those awkward situations where you accidentally let go too early and makes it easier for newer players

[slow linden]

If spy from tf2 can sneeze on you from behind and get a backstab and still be the worst class in the game I really don't see the need for charged alternate attacks

[halcyon halo]

True

[tardy light]

tf2 spy cant dash and teleport

[slow linden]

There were other unintended consequences

[tardy light]

yeah, im asking like what? cause idk

I mean, the update was a buggy mess. but that had nothing to do with goo nerf. unless ur just joking and saying it was caused by the goo god

[slow linden]

I forgot but I remember people complaining about multiple things

[tardy light]

Yes, slide, melee, shockwave, etc,

[slow linden]

Relating to the goo change I mean

[slow linden]

But I do think the goo changes unironically caused all of that too

[tardy light]

Goo is the spaghetti code holding together the entire game

Reduce goo duration and weapon damage values change. cashout steal time changes. new maps in rotation

[slow linden]

Goo giveth and goo taketh away

[tardy light]

i put the little spider grapple hook charm on my goo gun and im very happy with it

[slow linden]

I put the holtow sun charm on my goo gun

I use the tinfoil skin from s1,the only unique skin it has

Goo gun needs more love from the cosmetic team fr

[tardy light]

Mythic goo skin when

[stiff vine]

not after then nerfs in 2 weeks

[slow linden]

Those will be undone too

Embark will not nerf a beloved core mechanic to absolute dogshit without being crucified somehow

[tardy light]

I feel they’ll nerf goo melee while keeping goo stall or something like that. Lol

even though goo stall is the more oppressive thing.

[slow linden]

My hope is that goo is the tf2 coconut of this game,that it cannot be negatively changed or even positively changed too radically without breaking the entire game

Given recent events there is some evidence to make that claim,but not exactly proof

[tardy light]

Tbh the best nerf is just changing the way its ammo works. I really hope that’s all

[slow linden]

True

The changes to goos durability and how fast it burns from a while ago were already a kick in the kidney to me personally

I truly wish goo grenades and goo gun had different colors and stats,goo guns could be red and have slightly more health than wood,grenade and barrels could remain the same in both stats and color,maybe the red goo burns easier and can't be put out by smoke

[glossy sun]

What they touched Goo again?

[slow linden]

This was a while ago they made it less durable,goo used to be fairly sturdy,they Also made it much weaker to all explosives

So I've heard at least

Like multiple seasons ago

[glossy sun]

Oh nvm I thought they did again

Also the fact that there was one patch that you Gooed on the stealing team mate so they can steal

[slow linden]

Lmao

[glossy sun]

Goo Gun is Wacky...

[slow linden]

Truly it was a dps buff for me as a gooflame main but it was a nerf in so many other ways

It was so ass

[glossy sun]

Sometimes I wish they raised the Damage of the burning goo produced by the Flamethrower

[slow linden]

A better wish is to wish that flamethrower's napalm from the beta that was removed for performance issues be returned

[slow linden]

Remember what they took from us

[glossy sun]

It had a Napalm??

I joined in season 3

[slow linden]

Any structure other than stone and concrete could be ignited by it and fire could spread and eventually burn that structure to the ground

There was an actual reason for smoke to extinguish

[sudden pewter]

Nah

[slow linden]

The fuck you mean nah

[sudden pewter]

Don’t need it. Fuck the flamethrower

[slow linden]

Now granted fire spreading forever was excessive

[glossy sun]

C4tter don't like anything

[slow linden]

It does need its fire back

[slow linden]

He means well,I can't exactly blame him

[sudden pewter]

It certainly needs something, but being able to completely destroy non-concrete structures is a bad idea. At least not while it’s permanent.

[glossy sun]

I mean

[slow linden]

No,not without setting the whole structure on fire yourself,I don't want spreading back,I want to be able to put down controlled fire pools and for foolish use of the flamethrower to spell my own doom

[glossy sun]

Let the Flame stick to a Wall segment if you use the flame long enough in a single spot.

[slow linden]

I want flamethrower to be good again,I want flamethrower to have consequences again

[glossy sun]

Like Imagine you could Make A firewall if you shoot on the spot you want it to be on.

Would be a Good Defense and will alert you if someone tried passing through

[slow linden]

Exactly

That's what I miss about it

Not the burning every apartment on Monaco down

Sometimes it crashed the game too,the spreading was definitely too much

[glossy sun]

But they implemented the New Structure system right?

Wouldn't that make it smoother....?

[slow linden]

It would be,a little spreading would be acceptable but not one dot taking out the whole building like it used to

[glossy sun]

What if Goo burned Slower.

[full pier]

need help to pick out 3rd gadget for my light build: grapple hook, XP, sonar, nullifer, what else can i add here

[glossy sun]

How about Support...? Infuser.?

[full pier]

nobody listens and dies out of position

i dont think I need infuser for solo q

[glossy sun]

Ehh.... Reasonable.

[slow linden]

Tracking dart

[full pier]

already have sonar

[glossy sun]

Gateway?

[full pier]

grapble makes gateway useless ngl

[glossy sun]

I mean Tracking Dart Last for 15 seconds if I'm correct.

[full pier]

i even tried gravty vortex but that dodnt go as I hoped

[slow linden]

Tracking dart keeps problems marked for a very long time,it can be a death sentence for the enemy,sonar is mainly for defensive intel,Tracking dart is for when you intend to kill that one guy

[full pier]

im thinking of glitch and thermal

[glossy sun]

Dude.. like you can place Gateway on defense and Wait till they try to steal use the other half of the Gateway pop in and deny the steal.

Also can be used to transport The box faster.

[full pier]

im only doing solo q so I donno if that would be usefull but I will try

[tardy light]

vanish

[sudden pewter]

Idk about that. Being able to place pools would reduce the use cases for Pyro Grenades. Having that with a weapon doesn’t seem right

[glossy sun]

Seems like added Defense able to place down 2 or 3 pools of fire with Flamethrower and pyro nade.

Without the spreading of course.

[slow linden]

Pyro grenades best use case was being able to start fires at range,it's why even in the beta I ran it with gooflame to counter snipers

[glossy sun]

Unless it's goo.

[full pier]

i dont intend to play close to enemy, i keep midrange and just swing around enemies untill i can get another clear shot

[glossy sun]

The problem with Vanish is that they can see where the Bomb explode giving them a Reference of where your coming from.

I would try the gateway honestly...

[full pier]

i will give thermal a try for making a way for sonar

[slow linden]

One weapon having some of the utility a gadget has does not make that gadget irrelevant,it can make that weapon even stronger with that gadget,or hardly affect the gadget at all

[sudden pewter]

Sonar shows you unknown threats.
Tracking dart tracks known threats.

[glossy sun]

Don't sleep on Breach if you intend to be on close range.

[slow linden]

This too,and what are known threats other than prey

[full pier]

Thermal is doing wonders

[tardy light]

You should run thermal vision too 😄

[glossy sun]

Pfft Thermal vision...

I still think MGL grenade should explode on direct Hit

[full pier]

just realised i can basically drop cash, delete gas and make sonar work better

[slow linden]

It should but only on direct hit with a player,not turrets or structures,it should keep bounces

And it should keep its fuse

[glossy sun]

Should be explode on Turrets not on Barricades or Dome should be able to destroy them...

Or any walls just players and turrets...

[slow linden]

Eh,I guess

Turret needs a giga buff tho

[tardy light]

give turret a lil rpg tf2 style

[slow linden]

A little grenade launcher would be more fitting

[glossy sun]

Thing is about the Turret on high ground against an MGL

[slow linden]

True

[glossy sun]

Heck you know I would had liked if the Gave Riot Shield to Heavy or a Riot Should with a Very inaccurate or Close range TMP

[kindred gorge]

they should make it so that the gun is a minigun instead of an ar

I wish the game did april fools updates actually cause having a sledgehammer turret would be funny af

[glossy sun]

Turret with a Sledge hammer chasing you around

[tardy light]

thatd be so cute

[kindred gorge]

nah it just sits in one spot and nukes whoever is dumb enough to get close

other things could be making the jumppad shoot you out the bottom instead, and making dash shoot you in a random direction

[slow linden]

I agree entirely tbh

I've recommended this before

[kindred gorge]

KS-23 shoots rpg rockets, all three of the light smgs have to spin up like a mingun, and dual blades deflect bullets into the nearest teammate

[tardy light]

what if rpg was a weapon option with no cooldown

[slow linden]

Madness

Also arn isn't an smg,its an lmg disguised as an ar,you couldn't be further from what it is

[kindred gorge]

They should let me dev next year for an apirl fools mode

[slow linden]

The April fools joke is that there is no April fools joke,they do all their horrible nonsensical changes year round instead

[tardy light]

is anyone else bothered by the fact that deagles doesnt have a half tactical half empty reload for if you reload with 1 bullet left

[kindred gorge]

I was gonna make the point where like OW it would be mostly nonsense but there would accidentally be a change people actually wanted innthe base game cause it was good but I can't actually think of one

[glossy sun]

Speaking of... Didn't they mention something about OW...?

[kindred gorge]

I will however be stealing the roadhog one, heavy's winch no longer pulls but instead inflicts every status effect in the game

and the mercy one, healing beam can only target enemies and damages them instead

[kindred gorge]

Did they? Was it during a dev stream or something?

[glossy sun]

During the Dev Stream.

I think.

Give us a Tesla Coil Gun

Pair it with Charge.

I would like to see Glitch/Electric status on heavy

[kindred gorge]

prox sensors, mines and glitch trap can all be attached to players, both teammates and enemies

C4 and breach charge have massively increased damage but instead of remote activation detonate at random

[glossy sun]

Wait a second

[kindred gorge]

The money you acquire isn't dollars but iranian rial (worth 0.00024 of a dollar)

[glossy sun]

Why Not Tesla for Heavy so they can chase down Lights?
Tesla makes where it slows people down

[kindred gorge]

so when you get the earning report at the end of the game its like 2 cents

[slow linden]

Tesla cannon would be dope

[kindred gorge]

either that or it should be scottybucks or something

using a token respawns you at a random posistion anywhere on the map

and it will be called "The Midterms"

[glossy sun]

Cmon Embark Give us Stuff!! Give us New Toys!

So we Could Hate each other even more lol

[quartz moss]

Light would be cooler if he had 350 health and a minigun

[kindred gorge]

Laser guns in general would be neat

[kindred gorge]

Mauga Overwatch

[glossy sun]

I tried dude I wanted a Particle Laser Cannon that the Laser Tick does more Damage the longer the laser is left on them

[quartz moss]

Your right 2 minigun better then 1

[glossy sun]

You know Ramp up damage for good aiming.

[kindred gorge]

Yes, and having a weapon be heat based instead of mag reload would be neat

you can make it like helldivers where you have to reload the sink if it overheats and it takes super long, so you have to manage your engagements carefully

[glossy sun]

Since the Laser is Close Range.... Just like Zarya.

[kindred gorge]

ideally a little longer range than that would be nice

[glossy sun]

Ofc.

[kindred gorge]

No damage falloff but a set range cap where the projectile disappears, like a laser would

[glossy sun]

Less destructive than Flamethrower

Cmon!!!
I need new Toys!!

[slow linden]

So like an ant farting on a pinecone destruction level?

[glossy sun]

Whut

[slow linden]

Flamethrower has no destruction anymore other than like plants,remember?

[candid vessel]

That would be nice

I wish heavy had a burst rifle too. A 2 burst would work well i think

And charge-up weapons like a railgun/the charge shotgun from Fortnite would be fun too

[slow linden]

(Goo is a plant,also it came from the sun

[somber tiger]

Am I the only one who thinks that the crossbow was kind of a pointless addition?

[kindred gorge]

I saw the vision and I won’t blame the devs for trying

After how much we beg for anything of substance I’m never gonna call anything pointless, new weapon is a new weapon

[slow linden]

True

[analog pewter]

it would have had sauce if it was a projectile weapon. making it a lite LH1 is so uninspired

it could have been medium's TK but nooooooooo, we can't have interesting weapon designs only more hitscanslop

I have a hunch that all of embark's good designers went off to work on arc raiders since it blew up

aside from fangwai (their best map) nothing embark has designed for the finals post-season 7 has been particularly inspiring or fresh. Even shockwave, their best idea in half a year, was immediately gutted and all of its emergent gameplay removed, which felt so uncharacteristic of the devs of a game that has goo gun and things like dash+pad jumps

it feels like an entirely different team of people is making balance and design decisions than whoever was working on the game up to S7, and whoever is on the game now fundamentally misunderstands why it's appealing in the current market

insane too since season 7 was their biggest windfall of new players since the game launched, there was a brief cultural explosion they just didn't capitalize on

like the P90 and BFR are not particularly interesting weapons, mechanically speaking. they're just more hitscan firearms with bog-standard aiming and shooting mechanics. the hover pad doesn't really feel like it had any consideration beyond the initial concept, and it's been struggling to find any problem to solve that other gadgets don't do better

[tardy light]

hover pad is like breach drill 2.0 no one brings it

if they let you control hoverpad with multi-device like a little RC car that wouldve been awesome tho

[analog pewter]

"the finals added a crossbow" sounds really cool if you imagine the embark of s4-7 designing it! If it was made back then, it would have been a projectile weapon that requires a unique sort of aiming skill other medium weapons don't require. learning it would feel really interesting and it would have dedicated players who master its intricacies. Embark of S8-10 lacks the imagination or follow-through to make their ideas interesting

[analog pewter]

put the crane controls on its 4 sides that causes it to move automatically

make it so things heavier than a pebble don't immediately send it shooting to the ground

if the hover pad could suspend the cashout mid-air there might be something there

[ember junco]

I saw people talking about where they nerfed the hoverpad gunship tech but cant find it in the patch notes, anyone know where it is?

[candid vessel]

Its not pointless its just executed the pike

[candid vessel]

S7 was so peak i wish we could go back

[slim pulsar]

It's redundant in that it fits into the same archetype as several existing medium weapons, but it performs differently so it's fine

[candid vessel]

Seasons 1, 4 and 7 were so awesome

2, 5 and 6 were good too. 3 stank tho

[slim pulsar]

Is this how the token grabbers get you now? Have they moved on from mister beast?

[candid vessel]

Yeah theres been like 5874 in this channel alone the past 24 hours

[slim pulsar]

Insane

[slow linden]

The real crime was season 7 was fucking ass

[tardy light]

Check my profile

[tardy light]

Nuh uh it had a cool BP and more healing

[tardy light]

Weirdest thing is that in the AMA they said it’s hitscan to be fair for controller players with aim assist

[dusty thunder]

I love that the meta seems to just play as scummy as possible cause I love getting Winched clawed and then goo gunned into a stun lock while they shoot me/melee me

[tardy light]

But that implies that bow and throwing knives were mistakes and wouldn’t be made by current embark

Medium literally has no cool weapons like bow/tk. crossbow should’ve been that. 😔 . Instead we got pike’s older brother

[analog pewter]

which is such a nonsense rationale given other projectile weapons already exist and no significant number of people have brought up the TK being too hard to use on controller or something

[analog pewter]

season 7 was literally good be fr

[slow linden]

Nah

[analog pewter]

this is what I mean by the team being different people, embark of a year ago would not have made that decision on that basis lol

[slow linden]

It was literally unplayable,me and my duo and trio hated it

Battle pass was okay,that was all

[vast ferry]

is riot shield having bullet hitbox problems for anyone?

[tardy light]

its always been a mess imo

[vast ferry]

lately ive been watching replays and bullets just hit through it despite them looking nowhere near the massive foot hitbox

[sand monolith]

What is season 1 doing on this list

[candid vessel]

The game was fun?

[sand monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-no-nonono-noooo-cat-no-gif-13597132752790194338

[candid vessel]

Because all the cool stuff hadn’t been engineered out yet

And smoking guns was a banging ltm

[sand monolith]

Everything was insanely unbalanced and the actual core game was basically unplayable

[candid vessel]

Idk man people always say that then list off about half the kit in the entire game

[sand monolith]

Nukes? Recon? 25 damage fcar? Instant defibs? 96 damage sa12?

The game didn’t even feel like a long ttk shooter you just died immediately

[slow linden]

Nukes were an overnerfed mechanic,now you can't even chuck a chair with a single mine attached to it at anyone's face

It just doesn't work

[sand monolith]

Idk c4 is still extremely strong

I wouldn’t say it needed that functionality at all

[slow linden]

The sandbox is supposed to have sand in it

C4 is fine also,if you're dying consistently to Explosives to complain about them just say you're blind

The brick of serious putty flying at you has a 4 second arming time,just don't stand there like a lobotomized cactus and you won't die

[candid vessel]

Lewis gun was good, hammer was actually ok, sword needed skill, double barrel on crack, cloak was good, cns wasn’t nerfed yet. List goes on

[slow linden]

It was a better time

[sand monolith]

Lewis gun was absurd and the rest of the stuff was better than it is now and yet still not seen at all because it wasn’t as good as the meta

[candid vessel]

Yeah fr if it needed more gadget investment like at least 1 c4 and 2 explosive mines to be good id be fine w that. Also if breach charges worked well with it

[sand monolith]

Why do you think I’m talking about damage

[slow linden]

Few things were overpowered and everything else was good,now it's everything is dogshit and few things are overpowered imo

[candid vessel]

It really was

[sand monolith]

C4 drops cashouts that’s some of the strongest utility in the game

[candid vessel]

Like 80% of the gear is currently worse than when it first came out or something

[sand monolith]

Thank God

[candid vessel]

Fun hater spotted

[candid vessel]

This is pretty much the reality yh

[sand monolith]

“Fun” and it’s an unbalanced game that doesn’t function design wise because everything is so overtuned

I like when my long ttk shooter actually has long ttk

[slow linden]

Damage is the only thing it has going for it,c4 is only useful defensively,and that's fine,but to call it extremely strong when there's easy counters for it is just silly

[candid vessel]

If everything is overtuned nothing is? Thats how averages work

[sand monolith]

Game balance isn’t an average

A game is designed and the values for balance are selected around that design. Finals has long ttk because it puts emphasis on teamplay and sustained teamfights. If everything kills fast, you lose that and the main objective of the game is no longer suitable

So yes, if everything is overtuned, everything is still overtuned

[slow linden]

Honestly watch this video and you'll see where embark went wrong,sand belongs in the sandbox

[sand monolith]

If every gun killed 50% faster the game would be worse