💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

burst and synergy with demat

but you get what i'm tryna say anyway

[arctic zodiac]

Well yeah demat was always meta back then

[chilly granite]

you'll see high ranked players use a great variety of weapons and just mix it up for no reason
but not with gadgets or specs

there are some players who have unique gadgets/spec combos, but they are still usually from a subset of semi-meta gadgets and specs

and often have unique synergies to add value vs the meta

and you'll also see as they lose value in gadgets and spec, they'll tend more to the most powerful weapons that class has available because they've lost power budget in theri gadgets and spec

and the game has a relatively small player pool. top 10k is not good lol

last season was my first season playing ranked with any degree of effort and I dipped into top 10k multiple times

and I was playing agressively off meta

[strange gorge]

solo queue?

[chilly granite]

yeah

grapple/bow/null/flash/frag was the loadout I ran wehn I hit top 10k

and it's not that it was a good loadout, I could see that I was losing value vs meta loadouts

like, dash/gate is just better than grapple/***

skipping h+ will just lose you a certain % of games where you just don't have the option to H+ your teammate for a free steal

or H+ a teammate for a free fight win

Carnifex always 3 stacks, with 3 pro skill players, effectively an entire pro team. And they still run meta, because not runnign meta, makes them vulnerable to losing to players as low as rank 10k

that is terrible balance

and it's not like everyone in top 10k is 3 stacking. A fair portion of them are solo queueing. A literal 3 stack of pro players being vulnerable to solo queue pub players who have mic off is not even remotely balanced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRkGz3ySDJQ&pp=ygUObm8gc2tpbGwgZG90YSA%3D

this is a pro stack in dota playing a pub against high skill players

they don't level their abilites at all and they still win

and dota has significantly less mechanical skill expression than a fps game like finals

like, its acually insane that even pro players can't play with all off-meta specs and gadgets and win easily

one of their players isn't even a pro he's a in-game cameraman lol

when pros play off meta, they're at most dropping one gadget for an alternative

because more than that loses too much of their power level against pub players to be consistent, which is batshit insane

carnifex shouldn't be worrying about losing to rank 10k players becuase he swapps glitch and h+ for tracking dart and gravity vortex

alright rant over

[muted condor]

Ah fuck bow user

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1182330475386261536/1466625149104029696/graphing-ezgif.com-optimize.gif

[versed finch]

It's not that deep 😭

[stoic aspen]

can i and or you win with the WARIO loadout:

charge
mgl
gas nade
+whatever i want

[muted condor]

C&S with MGL is one of my new favorites

[alpine sphinx]

actually one of the better gadgets for mgl, cause then you can actually damage people right in front of you lmao

[stoic aspen]

wario loadout isnt even that bad tbh

[glossy sun]

I'm still confused. Why Nerf Goo gun.

[floral wigeon]

probably because it isnt fun to play against

[glossy sun]

No why nerf goo entirely.

[floral wigeon]

goo grenade has been meta for several seasons and goo gun has a 16 second stun which isnt fun to play against

[glossy sun]

Then.... What's the use for goo now... If the Flamethrower goo combo

It's dead

[floral wigeon]

they reverted the nerf

[glossy sun]

What Nerf?

[floral wigeon]

oh my god bruh

[glossy sun]

I was Saying about shooting someone with Goo then setting them in flames

[floral wigeon]

they reverted the goo nerf you're complaining about

[last steeple]

They just wanted to remove infinite goo lock from the game because not being able to play the game isn't fun

[glossy sun]

If that happens again likely They will gravitate to Hook in my opinion...

I'm still confused why would they make Cashout The "Test" update instead of an event...

[alpine sphinx]

Same can be said about winch, Defi and dash

[glossy sun]

Triple Medium with Defib and reviving in the middle of a Crossfire.

How fun.... If only there was a Way to negate the revive if they try to do it in front of the Enemy

[floral wigeon]

i dont disagree with winch and defib

i guess i can see how dash can be annoying for controller players but i dont think its as annoying as winch

[glossy sun]

I see Dash being Annoying more than Winch.

As a Heavy I get Watched in and I just Slide away to Escape SOMEHOW IT WORKS

[floral wigeon]

if you're a light winch is a guaranteed kill

[glossy sun]

Dash... Away

[paper canopy]

it lasts one week, if it were an event the feedback wouldnt be as impactful

[floral wigeon]

there quite literally is not enough time to dash away if they're using shak or sa12

[noble saddle]

Some new loadouts I've been playing this season

1. Sledge, Shield, Lockbolt, RPG, Dome

Gameplan is basically dome if you can't safely fire the lockbolt, jump in with RPG, swing the hammer to finish off every tethered person.

Shield the team and brawl defensively until cooldowns return.

Weakness is obv very cooldown dependant and range issue because of melee but utility is insanely high dive and burst damage and you're basically a one man army.

2. Crossbow, Turret, Smoke Grenade, Frag Grenade, Platform

Between the platform and the smokes, the opponent is never going to be certain where you are, is where the turret is placed. You effectively create cover for yourself and your turret, but also if the enemy is expecting that something will be in the smoke or on the platform, you can play a guessing game and position yourself and the turret in completely different spots.

Weakness is no defib utility which needs to be said, also not much for mobility. But it's a fun, low sodium build and again high hero play potential just off how much space you can control.

[glossy sun]

How the hell I do the same and They Dash away!?

[floral wigeon]

you aren't hitting enough shots

[glossy sun]

Ah yes The thing that's in front of me And I'm not hitting my Shots.

[paper canopy]

thats a problem with many finals players

not hitting shots

[glossy sun]

Bruh I do the same and they Magically live when I'm at pin point Aim and still Runs away for some odd Reason

[floral wigeon]

which weapon are you using

[glossy sun]

Sa1216 leaves a Sour spot when I do this With Shak I can get the Kill and it's Weird.

[paper canopy]

so why dont you just stick to the shak

if youre getting the kills how are you complaining about not getting the kills

[stoic aspen]

update: i won with the wario loadout its actually not that bad

[glossy sun]

It's like I don't hate it I enjoy the weapon I've been using it since it release...

Mostly I stick to 3 weapons And Minigun is the most I I've used due to its Ammo cause usually when I match with people BOTH of my team dies and I'm just there as a Sitting duck.

[glossy sun]

Can't deal with my own team I'm at a point that they should just Give me X3 HP and Ammo just to win a Cashout game by myself cause my team is never there to help there off trying to get kills when we have a Box trying to defend.

Oh hey look Red name.

[candid vessel]

ARACHNE MENTIONED

[eager wasp]

goo grenade has really only been meta for the longest on medium

and thats because its just the only survivability item they have, theres nothing else to preserve their life a bit longer

[keen raven]

oh yippe goo guns back

[candid vessel]

And also all the offensive gadgets on medium are ass

As a whole they mostly suck ngl. The only ones that aren’t shite are rpg c4 and pyro mine. Frags and explosive mines need buffs badly, and you should be able to carry 2 again.

Buffing the large amount of underperforming offensive gadgets would give the kinda meta shakeup people want

Atm they are too weak compared to main weapons to justify their use in competitive gameplay.

Also gas as a whole just needs a massive buff because its useless as everyone knows fire instantly gets rid of it. This would also indirectly buff the cerb too as more people would use gas

[glossy sun]

Wasn't the reason of The Grenade nerf was because it was outperforming an RPG by having 2 grenades both can deal damage and destroy walls?

[noble saddle]

I feel like positioning and game awareness is a bigger issue than aim for most players

[noble saddle]

I don't even think this is necessarily true it's just the mediums guns are so good it makes offensive gadgets kind of redundant. Why do I need a grenade when my gun does so much damage already?

There's use cases to grenades but you just get so much more reliable utility from the meta trifecta.

[fickle heron]

why was sledgehammer nerfed

[noble saddle]

I think sledgehammer is in a fine state and it's going to be even better if they implement the movement buff long term.

Sledge has utility of being insane in a brawl. What let's it down is that you don't get any damage at all at range, but it does have utility for ambushing players or making unorthodox unexpected escapes

[fickle heron]

i understand the nerf somewhat to make it more skilled but the 100 damage on it killed the left click and made it harder to express skill i believe that they shoulkd give the left click 5 more damge so combos are still possible if you play well

[noble saddle]

Really though lockbolt and sledge is an insanely powerful dive combo. And winch sledge is an insanely good duel combo

[fickle heron]

i dont disagree but the ttk is horible and causes it to suck in most use cases unless it is a brawl

[noble saddle]

Lockbolt, RPG, Sledge is a nuke combo if you haven't tried it

Anything in the lockbolt dies

[fickle heron]

I have tried it and found that i just get absolutly beamed (i play mostly ranked) by the team i lockbolt

[indigo nexus]

play well as in, hit someone with a winch claw / lockbolt?

[noble saddle]

It's not the TTK is because you're getting shot on the approach is what makes it hard. That's why I like to dive in behind an RPG and dome myself to set up the lockbolt.

I enter the fight with full HP and everyone in the lockbolt is down half their life or more

[fickle heron]

positioning

[noble saddle]

This is the nature of dive it can be very feast or famine.

The way lockbolt sledge works is super divey, then you just play tank for the team until your cooldowns are back and do it again

But if you're playing it right, lockbolt should basically always guarantee a kill

[fickle heron]

I appreciate the kind feedback and youve given me a diffrent way to think about how sledge works now. I believe i have come here just to complain. The nerf really wasnt bad it just meant i couldnt play how i used too

[hazy hemlock]

FACTS LMFAO

[hazy hemlock]

Also true

[noble saddle]

I think if you develop a habit of throwing a dome down as you deploy your lockbolt, it will be a noticeable improvement in your kdr and survivability.

I was dying all the time and I realized I was getting like 100 hp or so chunked as I was pulling the lockbolt out.

Once I fixed that my sledge heavy usually goes like 2:1 or better KD in cashout

[hazy hemlock]

I am not a fan of all speeds being homogenised. Im ok with making the difference smaller but no difference feels meh. Makes it to close to medium for light and medium atm already does almost everything youd wanna do on light

[fickle heron]

yeah i used to play more solo pre sledge nerf i need to get used to playing more with my team and using more util to kill people i used to use only winch really to pull people in because the combos made it easy to win those fights

[hazy hemlock]

Saying its because players run in alone and die wont change that. Shit light players still gonna use grapple/ dash and get there first and die

You cant patch stupid

[noble saddle]

My friends were clowning my mesh sledge build and then I made it work.

Nobody is laughing anymore except me.

[fickle heron]

dude the mesh is goated

[hazy hemlock]

Who hates on mesh? Its good winch is just broken still lmao

[fickle heron]

facts

[fickle heron]

i personly used goo gun until it got nerfed as well which i think was derserved a bit its just a lot harder to use now

[noble saddle]

I kinda just thought of it like Reinhardt.

What makes Reinhardt good aside from the shield utility ?Earth shatter

So I had to put together gadgets that basically did what Earth shatter does

Lockbolt for the pin, RPG for the initial burst

[hazy hemlock]

Heavy doesnt have a bad spec its just that winch is that broken. Light and medium have a bad spec tho

[noble saddle]

It's because mesh and sledge combo is not popular lol

[hazy hemlock]

I mean makes sense to me lol idk why anyone woukd think it wouldn't work. Obv super high lobbies will be harder but I see the synergy. Feel like its a skilless take to NOT see the vision

[hazy hemlock]

I forget people in this game have no originality and only mets slave

[noble saddle]

I think it's just not many people play this game like a cooldowns shooter with ability combos

They mostly just pick well rounded primaries and gadgets with utility that doesn't necessarily need combos to function

[hazy hemlock]

I think thats jsut cuz they are bad. I been saying since jump light isnt the issue for 99% of the playerbase they are just bad.

Bitching about light dash when most of us have played at minimum overwatch is insane. Its worse tracer dash literally jsut track it if you have a gun

[noble saddle]

Like you notice how when people discuss weapons and gadgets they're always thinking about how good the gadget is in a vacuum instead of how it may synergize with other gadgets

[hazy hemlock]

Yeah 0 originality or positional awareness just tryina be carried by meta lol

[muted condor]

That’s why defib needs to go

[noble saddle]

I think defib should only be usable by med beam mediums that's my spicy take

Make it a part of the spec. Free up space for another gadget

[hazy hemlock]

Nah I get you my builds arent even meta. Anything I have thats meta I been on since early days. Exept h+. Its to strong to not run sadly

[noble saddle]

I play meta medbeam medium in ranked but I spend most of the game messing with off meta in cashout

[hazy hemlock]

LOWKEY HE SPITTING I NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS

[candid vessel]

I mean frags structure damage is terrible. Also they’re highlighted now so dodging them is too easy

[hazy hemlock]

The most meta build i ran for ranked was my medium movement build when I solo qued to diamond to prove to someone here they are the most skilless class after only playing light for like 4 seasons lol

[noble saddle]

The way I play the finals is I try to create "heroes" I intentionally come up with a unique gameplay loop and attach it to a costume and see how hard I can cook with it in cashout.

Sometimes when I feel sweaty I pick up the main med beam medium and play a bunch of ranked. It's just ranked forces me to take so much time out of the day lol, I usually don't have the ability to commit to a ranked cashout run cause there's always some chance I'll have to put the game down and tend to something irl

[hazy hemlock]

Your cool af i do the same. My light is tracer with some sombra elements.
Dash
V9s(fav gun since S2)
Sonar
Thermal bore
H+(used to be grav vortex)

[noble saddle]

You know how like in battlefront 2, you'll be a stormtrooper but then someone on your team gets Darth Vader

I like my contestants to feel like they're a "hero" instead of just a person with a gun lol

[hazy hemlock]

Actually... my light is just zaku 2 from gundam evolution lmfao

[candid vessel]

No honestly i kinda do that too

[noble saddle]

My signature light build is Matter, Dash, Flash Grenade, Gas Grenade, Breach Charge

It's so much fun to "own" the chaos

[hazy hemlock]

BROOO YES. MY SHOCKWAVE MOVEMENT MEDIUM IS JUST THE DAMN JUMP TROOPER FROM THAT GAME😂

[noble saddle]

I feel like anyone in this channel is probably really taking advantage of the hero creator

[hazy hemlock]

Shockwave
Fcar/famas
Goo
Jump pad
Defib(nessecity not cuz i wanna)

[noble saddle]

Plus it just keeps the game fun.

If you're constantly just playing casual weird loadouts and being creative, it keeps the game so fresh.

But then you start to feel how upsetting it can be to only have 8 constants at a time and only 32 costumes or so

[candid vessel]

That is why i never wanna go back to something like the time when fcar was god in s2

[noble saddle]

Why is it like this I want to have like 100 slots for contestants.

Maybe if you only want name to be able to pick 8 at a time in quickplay modes sure, but I should be able to have a reserve

[hazy hemlock]

Yeahhh. All my builds are recreating classes I play in other games. I just super hope all speeds dont end up the exact same thats stupid.

[candid vessel]

We definitely need more than 8 now

[hazy hemlock]

https://tenor.com/view/akakichi-no-eleven-bro-bad-news-i've-got-bad-news-for-you-hand-on-shoulder-gif-4737126791591033318

[broken mulch]

hey js making sure before i hop on, melee is as it was pre-patch rn right?

[hazy hemlock]

Yes its fixed

[noble saddle]

Yeah my tactical mace guy is heavily inspired by Reinhardt, sometimes I make characters that are mirrors of other games but usually it's more like "what fundamentally made that design work" and see if I can recreate it

But a lot of my builds could only really be done in the finals

[broken mulch]

thanks i dont wanna queue another ranked match like that one

[candid vessel]

Yes

[hazy hemlock]

I copy other chars i play and toss in elements of others cuz I got space to. Its fun

[noble saddle]

Most of my builds come from weapons I have cool skins for lol that inspire me to create an entire loadout around them lol

[hazy hemlock]

I just need them to
1)not change heavy health
2) keep SOME difference in speeds. If I wanted to play medium id pick it

[noble saddle]

I think it's way more fun when learning a new weapon to create an entirely new loadout for it that can play to its strengths. I don't like running the same 3 gadgets where the only thing I'm changing is the gun

[hazy hemlock]

Db medium fun i need to learn matter idk what i wanna make for it

[noble saddle]

My friend who used to just be a random costume parts on the same heavy build every game is starting to see the true fun of the game which is hero creation around a weapon you think looks cool

I think that you should always know how to play the meta loadouts but what do they say, you have to learn the rules to break them

[noble saddle]

Gas grenade and matter is a sinister combo

[broken mulch]

oh yea what abt shockwave

[noble saddle]

I like breach Charge, gas grenade and flash grenade with dash for matter. You are just pure Skrimisher/flanker/disruption and it's so much fun

Any sort of high burst gun with some sustain works with this loadout though you could do it with throwing knives or 93r I just like the matter. Bow and arrow could also work I think

Double barrel doesn't work as well cause this loadout isn't meant for dive as much as it is to disrupt

[hazy hemlock]

Gas grenade stinky

[forest birch]

Ironically with the melee bug being fixed the spear gets a nerf as you can no longer cancel the spin with a left click

[noble saddle]

This passage from the musical masterpiece, "original prankster" by the offspring summarizes this builds vibe

[hazy hemlock]

😂😂😂

[old junco]

Its ridiculous that they give the light more health rather than reducing the hitbox time on the sledgehammerit literally floats for a whole second allowing them to completley miss and still kill yuo

[muted condor]

Me when I have no understanding past the surface level things I see

[azure yacht]

Should I use cloaking device and vanishing bomb or just cloak device?

[noble saddle]

Heavy moves faster and light moves slower meaning it is easier for heavy to chase down lights with the hammer

[viscid carbon]

only one of the two

[noble saddle]

If you're trying to play light to its ceiling never use cloak device

Invis bomb and dash >>> cloak

The only reason I try cloak sometimes is cause it gets boring having every light loadout on dash lmao

[noble saddle]

Generally speaking imo the best cloak loadout is gonna be gateway, glitch grenade, then you can run either breach charges or thermal bore if you're selfish, or run infuser if you're wanting to play more of a support role

A light build I like that uses cloak is

Cloak, LH1, Thermal Bore, Anti Grav (or whatever the lights version of that is called, I forget) and Gateway

The anti gravity bomb is fun to trap people in then just mash primary fire into their heads as they're stuck floating

[azure yacht]

Ty for the tips, I’m try dash m11 vanish bomb glitch nade and breach charge

[sudden pewter]

I love using cloak + vanish bomb for team plays, you can conserve cloak meter with the bomb but make sure you’re orbiting a homie so they can benefit

I almost exclusively use cloak with the LH1 to ensure at least 2 shots before I have to move

[noble saddle]

If you're a total beginner, here is the loadout all my noob friends have had the most success on learning light for the first time. This is an easier class to play than medium and heavy in a lot of ways.

Breakdown

Cloak: Panic button, when shot at, retreat, cloak, reset

Gun: XP

Gadgets

Gateway: use it as a pseudo jump pad for now but you can get the hang of cashbox running when you're feeling good with gateways mechanics

Breach Charge: Correct for pathing mistakes when still learning maps. It does not do damage, strictly a navigation tool

Glitch Grenade: Just chuck these when you're able

Everyone I've ever got to try this loadout goes like 3:1 KD on their first game running it lol

Eventually you'll want to graduate to dash and vanish bomb or infuser instead of breach charges depending on your playstyle but for now this is the training wheels

[sudden pewter]

I wouldn’t recommend using Cloak (spec) to retreat unless there’s a fair bit of distance as the hum gives you away

[sudden pewter]

Glad they had the decency to release it as a test limited to a single gamemode in scope first. Now they know it isn’t the right course

[azure yacht]

I’m a more aggressive player so ima use the dash n m11, what gadgets should I pair it with? Was thinking between vanish bomb, infuser, gateway and glitch grenade

[noble saddle]

It doesn't make you impossible to track but if you're shooting from mid range with the XP, and retreat then cloak you are harder to locate.

You don't use the cloak to ambush people. Strictly a defense tool to escape a bad position a little more consistently

[sudden pewter]

🙂‍↔️

[noble saddle]

Infuser, Gateway, Glitch with Dash M11 easy

You are a dive and mag dump class with this loadout. Rapidly find the highest value dive target and dump on them.

Teammates are dive targets for the infuser

Enemies are dive targets for the M11

Dash into like 1m range from a flank and dump

Gateway mostly useful to run the cash box but more advanced allows you to dart back and forth between flanking and healing

And glitch you just chuck at people if you're not gonna dive em cause why not

[noble saddle]

The point of the loadout is eventually to graduate to the meta stuff but this is more of a total beginner intro to light

You may disagree but I've seen it work enough that I'm convinced it's effective for someone who is green with the class

Trying to learn dash and gateway and glitch grenade and infuser all at the same time along with learning how to shoot your gun is really hard this breaks the class up a bit and let's you learn the most valuable parts of its utility which is glitch and gateway

[sudden pewter]

Oh I see the confusion, you’re referencing the inclusion of cloak in your greenhorn loadout opposed to my usecase of cloak in general

MB

[radiant ledge]

is it just me or does melee have some serious hitreg issues rn?

[slow linden]

Yes

[radiant ledge]

aint no way they massacred my boys 💔

[slow linden]

Apparently an accident

[alpine sphinx]

real, its straight up ass

[slow linden]

Saw one cursed screenshot of dual blades having ammo 😭

[winged junco]

Not the point lil bro

[winged junco]

Probably, they changed a lot

[keen raven]

my sledghammer had 99/90 ammo when i used it

[slow linden]

Wtf

[kindred gorge]

I thought respec order was gonna be it randomly swapping your equipped spec mid round, this is a lot more disappointing

But honestly it’s probably a good thing this happened though, cause there was a handful of people advocating for altered health pools so it shows they are listening

But it also shows that it may not be the solution we thought it was, or maybe it needs to be dialed back

[winged junco]

Rate the name.

[rough arch]

horrible

not the right channel bud

[winged junco]

bruh

[slow linden]

Mid,but yea,new sword is more annoying than old sword

[winged junco]

Haven’t played since 10.3

[rough arch]

I want parrying in this game

pls embark 🥺 🙏

[winged junco]

Make winch have a 160% hit range and stun for 3-4 seconds depending on range. Idk but this sounds valid. (Give Shak 50 bullets)

[rough arch]

hell no

[winged junco]

Hey, I’m gonna uncrust your bagel.

[rough arch]

😔

(Give shak only 5 bullets)

[winged junco]

what is that gun. Is it new? I like the Shak-50. shak, pfttt

[rough arch]

Is this guy slow?

[winged junco]

No, I got a 10% speed buff

[rough arch]

I'm gonna castrate you

[winged junco]

😀👋

[rough arch]

[winged junco]

[rough arch]

[winged junco]

[candid vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-finals-quemby-rutile-thumbs-up-holtow-gif-9291281097462307562

I didn’t want my gif to work anyway

[winged junco]

Hey, that’s a blue link. I’m not supposed to click links from strangers.

[rough arch]

I can't trust this guy anymore

[candid vessel]

And its not supposed to be a link 😭

[winged junco]

Me neither

[candid vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-finals-quemby-rutile-thumbs-up-holtow-gif-9291281097462307562

[rough arch]

They're a witch

[candid vessel]

Ig that gif is just broken

[rough arch]

we have to burn you at the stake now

[candid vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/sledge-hammer-sledgehammer-quemby-rutile-gif-12577795683327976082

[winged junco]

Petition to give heavy 500 hp. +1

[candid vessel]

WHY ARE ALL THE QUEMBY GIFS BROKEN

[rough arch]

-500

[rough arch]

Because you're a witch

[candid vessel]

Toasterfuckers silencing holtow confirmed

[winged junco]

Burn, burn, burn

[rough arch]

😔

[winged junco]

Other way around bud

Why are Biscoff good 😊

[candid vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/bud-light-can-dance-bud-light-awesome-ishowspeed-gif-11347679692056271188

Ig all my gifs are cooked thanks discord

[rough arch]

Just give up

[candid vessel]

I am

[winged junco]

Nah, ur just not the #1 max

[slow linden]

Use reshaper and impulse bomb you can parry rockets and grenades with both

[winged junco]

No, for melee

[rough arch]

no I mean melee parrying (not dual blades)

[slow linden]

Kill the serpent in the garden,kill winchclaw

[winged junco]

I think it’s a great idea

[rough arch]

only you think its a good idea

[winged junco]

Sacrifice the fun of others for my own. I mean for the good of everyone!

[slow linden]

Riot shield can block melee with perfect shield placement and only half the time

[winged junco]

Caps buddy, remember in elementary school?

[rough arch]

ok grammar police

[winged junco]

Who tf wants to run riot shield

[rough arch]

me 🥺

[winged junco]

I AM WALL. I HIT YOU WITH SHORT STICK.

[slow linden]

Me,all melee weapons are fun

[rough arch]

+1

[winged junco]

You have nerer genuinely used it. subau

[rough arch]

subau?

[winged junco]

Ye

Super ugly bean ah underdog

[rough arch]

I'm not reading that essay

[winged junco]

I’m not either

Increase winch distance by 15m

[slow linden]

Shak is balanced,winchclaw makes it too strong,remove winchclaw its killing heavy

[left pollen]

Hey all what is currently the “meta” weapons for light? Haven’t played in a few seasons.

[mystic oak]

m11 xp-54 and ARN I guess

Gadgets are: H-infuser, Glitch Granade and Gateway

[left pollen]

Thank you!

[stable bloom]

Is gateway really that good I feel like I barely see it used

[pale river]

its very good for moving your team

[scarlet ivy]

So you can get the other two sword lights on your solo queue team killed faster?

[pale river]

no so you can get your two heavies faster

[scarlet ivy]

If only anyone played heavy ;-P

[opal token]

i use enemy gateways all the time. like the goo I find it to be a VERY double edged sword. Im always full flanking teams using their own gateways and ive yet to be punished for it EVER

[opal token]

#1 heavy lover right here

[scarlet ivy]

I just got three matches in a row where every person aside from me was light… wish I could post images here lol

[opal token]

the amount of lights i get teamed with in ranked is so heart breaking honestly, why are you here on my team if you arent going to at least finish my kills when i have them low and they are on the run

[forest hill]

https://discord.com/channels/1008696016318513243/1491720008034947192

[alpine sphinx]

everyone who was yapping here yesterday about defib not being a big problem is honestly fucking delusional

there is no other gadget that has even nearly as much influence on team fights aside from maybe healbeam, but guess what, they pair

defib absolutely has to become a spec and be interruptable

[slow linden]

@muted condor talk of your hate with one of your peers

[last steeple]

I won't say anything or they'll think I'm ragebaiting

[slow linden]

(Spoiler,you are.)

[dark agate]

Anyone know if jump pad shockwave tech was patched or am I suffering from skill issue?

[alpine sphinx]

patched cause fun is not allowed

[dark agate]

Also if heavy is for defense and destruction why no glitch trap on heavy class?

[last steeple]

NAHHH listen, defib not being interruptible is a problem if you play KDA and if you have anger issue (I want it to be interruptible too caus I like having great stats) but it's absolutely not the main problem
I do agree there's a bigger problem being the fact that it's better than all of the gadgets : making it a spe would just kill medium
Learning fun and performing loadouts without defib is the way to make medium survive and I've got an example: sanguine uses mines instead of defib and went to ruby with it

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/bornskywalker-dap-me-up-woody-woody-handshake-woody-toy-story-gif-26021440

[last steeple]

Nahhhh this is evil

[slow linden]

You should be able to choose to not be defibbed,and they should remove I frames and let people kill you while the defib is printing you

[last steeple]

Js removing I frames and all ammos from ammos weapons would be the way

But absolutely not making it a spe

And also making it interruptible but the problem with non interruptible defib is that it adds one death to your kda, that's all

[alpine sphinx]

literally who cares about kda lol

[last steeple]

Well why would you like an interruptible defib then ?

[kindred gorge]

Cause defib is bs

[alpine sphinx]

so you can stop the enemy from being revived?????

if you revive in a bad spot, you shouldnt get away with it

[last steeple]

Oh this way, bruh I've seen so much people asking for a deniable defib when they get revived

[last steeple]

You usually don't get away with it caus your tm8 js gets killed, if he stays alive, skill issue from the ennemy team

[kindred gorge]

Anything with zero skill floor that can instantly give you a massive advantage needs a change

[alpine sphinx]

yeah just give it 100-150 hp and when it breaks it stops

[kindred gorge]

Yeah especially since that’s how most other quick revive mechanics work

[last steeple]

It's the same as shooting at the revived dude once he's revived

[alpine sphinx]

No its not even similar lmao, they can shoot back and run away and have i-frames

[last steeple]

Js remove I frames 💀 those are a bigger problem to me

[shell sonnet]

Sadly only works with far away spam

If theyre trying to brute force it, ,ou need to decide between shooting the defib user (revive goes through) or shooting the hologram (get shot)

But its better than nothing

[alpine sphinx]

yes, and make it breakable

[alpine sphinx]

yeah, it would still be the best medium gadget, simply because its use (cutting out time where you just stand still) is so good that it will always be meta

[last steeple]

If you want but I think just removing I frames and ammos would already make it way easier to counter when it's badly used

[alpine sphinx]

it would be a start

[kindred gorge]

I think breakable hologram and no I frames is good but you should keep your ammo, cause if you are down to the wire then you can accept the risk of death. And at that point it’s more on the enemy for not shooting you when they had the chance

[shell sonnet]

Well, distant respawns (acting as coined respawn without using one) could fix it, but its understandable people dont want it

[last steeple]

Keeping amos allows to take use of a bad defib, like you have a super bad defib and you can still do damages or even kill someone, ehh idk

[kindred gorge]

Well that’s kind of what the breakable is for. The reason is we advocating for this in the first place was exactly that point

[last steeple]

Yah true, I js don't like the breakable aspect caus if they nerf it properly they won't even need to make it breakable

[shell sonnet]

Since its on topic rn, repost

[shell sonnet]

But how?

[kindred gorge]

You’re also making a change that will, due to the prevalence of defib in the meta, further lean into the bias towards certain weapons already in the meta like the m11 and other quickly reloading shred weapons

No love for LMGs 😔

[last steeple]

A half hp dude without ammos and abilities (and without I frames) is already almost a dead man, in like 99% of cases, making it breakable would make this 100% and idk I think there should be a tiny way to get out if you're lucky
(W pfp btw)

[kindred gorge]

This clip lowkey proves the point, even if the light hadn’t had I frames he still would’ve survived in what is objectively a horrible defib

[last steeple]

Or maybe js disable weapons too xd

More fair for all type of weapons

[kindred gorge]

Which brings me to another thing the defib needs a nerf on: movement. You should not be able to slide and short hop or any other thing that mitigates the lack of sprint

[last steeple]

Including a tiny bit of luck without making it too good fits the chaotic aspect of the finals that's why I said ts

[shell sonnet]

(Ty)

[shell sonnet]

That also isnt very good tho because people feed defibs
No matter if you have destructible defibs are not

Best case, we find something completely different

Open to suggestions

[last steeple]

you mean feeding kills to the other team with defib ? Its true but like its a tiny bit of money only, it resets coin time but usually when you get revived in the middle of a fight you werent going to coin a nyways, and it makes you die one more time but who cares (Id like to not being defibed if I dont want to but it would be alright anyways)

[shell sonnet]

More talking about fun value

But eh

What could be done to put more upfront cost to it

Like, adding some risk to the medium

Maybe that would help

[alpine sphinx]

embark out here endorsing the most obnoxious playstyles

[calm yarrow]

When I saw this skins, I thought exactly the same. xd

[vocal stone]

Damn, and literally NO ONE complained about it lol

[alpine sphinx]

yeah but melee players could have potentially profited from it, and thats a big no no

[vocal stone]

Deleting melee in next patch

[alpine sphinx]

yeah like i was saying, the S11 melee rework is just to remove all melee weapons

[vocal stone]

It will be that "under construction" sign on every melee weapon lol

They don't read this chat brochacho

[quartz plaza]

is there any of the employee here ?

[vocal stone]

Idk abt the employees, but they read feedback session - that I'm sure of

Bug reports and feedback session seem to be the most influencial

[indigo nexus]

The community managers I believe are the ones responsible for collecting player feedback and they do monitor all channels, but they probably don’t have any kind of focus on this one

I would guess things people say here have a super-tiny-but-not-zero impact?

The discord will be a smaller part of what they pay attention to anyway since in-game data collection is hugely higher quality

[chilly granite]

i do not believe that in the slightest

reasons:

they expose literally no data to players

you can't even see your own weapon stats or archtype stats

I mean, theoretically you should be absolutely correct

[indigo nexus]

…so? This is pretty normal as far as I’m aware

[chilly granite]

Most games I play either have a good data api or directly expose stats to players to some degree

maybe daddy gaben spoils me

nah even in the call of duty I used to play you could see some weapon stats

[indigo nexus]

Weapon stats I don’t think have anything to do with this at all, those are stats we know are being tracked (well I say tracked, you know what I mean, in any case it’s not relevant to the argument)

[stoic garden]

yea but i wanna see my own at least

[chilly granite]

simple usage stats are literally meaningless, and even winrate stats are often highly misleading

there's a lot of stats that I simply do not believe are being meaningfully tracked and I do think that significantly affects the accuracy of embarks resultant decsisions

93r buff is somewhat indicative

it was unpopular but I do not think its winrate was bad, I was trying it out before the buff and I was doing fine with it relative to my normal performance

a couple tryhard rubies had used it and similarly did not think it was overnerfed/weak after the changes

[indigo nexus]

Seems like very weak evidence indeed.

The game also isn’t primarily balanced around ruby players

[chilly granite]

there's a bunch of other examples of buffs on things that likely did not need a buff but were simply unpopular because of a niche playstyle

what's your evidence that they do have actual statistic they use to balance weapons other than usage?

weapons or gadgets*

[indigo nexus]

If embark cared much about popularity we probably wouldn’t have the dagger going unbuffed and largely only nerfed over time

[broken mulch]

i feel like melee is an exception to their balance philosophy in literally every way

[chilly granite]

that would make sense if they also listen a lot to player feedback/complaints, which I don't think anyone disagrees with

[broken mulch]

because goddamn is spear ass
u could argue that for mgl tho

[chilly granite]

Appoh bitched about sword and sword got nerfed lol

spear needs a buff by literally any metric, it's usage is bad and there's no way it's secretly farming a bunch of kills

[slow linden]

I'm more baked than a pizza rn what happened on game regarding weapon and gadgets tonight

[indigo nexus]

They do mention win rates in their patch notes sometimes and have vaguely referred to having many metrics, but that’s about it. Other than that it’s just an assumption that they’re not just, declining to track information that they could easily measure.

[chilly granite]

they've specifically cited popularity as a reason for a buff and nerf in llike 90% of their changesw

[broken mulch]

the anti spear coalition are rigging the spear stats by feeding it kills

[indigo nexus]

When there’s a big community uproar, yeah, they take action, because they kind of have to. I would be surprised if their ‘non-critical’ balance decisions were much affected by user feedback though

[chilly granite]

a lot of useful information isn't easy to measure, such as effective ranged dps

[indigo nexus]

I’m not even sure what you mean by “effective ranged dps”

[chilly granite]

that's kinda the point

like, the lewis gun, it has techincally higher ranged dps than the repeater, but beccause the repeater can instanltly apply it the second someone peeks, it has effectively higher ranged dps

[indigo nexus]

That is not the kind of data collection I’m referring to, that’s just TTK computation

[chilly granite]

no

like, in a fight, you can measure the effective dps over the time the enemy is visable to the enemy party

that's data that would be extremely valuable to know

beucase it would immediately show that the repeater is still insanely strong because it's effective dps in the window of an enemy peak is incredibly high

ttk computation wouldn't show that

there's also winrate vs enemy weapons at a given range

and I'm almost certain they're not tracking that

I'm curious what data you think 1) they are tracking that is 2) actually meaningful

[broken mulch]

do most games track that??

seems like a whole lotta data to track

[chilly granite]

@fervent berry do you guys actually do real stat tracking, and why aren't simple stats exposed in client (stuff like archtype winrate, and weapon winarete)

[chilly granite]

most games probably don't, but in CS this data was somewhat available

if you're driving your balance decisions on statistics rather than enjoyability, then you damn well should be trakcing everything under the sun

In dota, such statistics are somewhat avilable

Part of my reason for skepticism on the quality of stat tracking is:

Nullifier doesn't reward bonus xp for blocking a steal, or interupting enemy gadget usage, but that is ESSENTIAL information for making correct balance decisions on such a gadget, and it is massively illogical to not simply reward the player with bonus xp, if oyu already have the trakcing infrastructure in place

nullifier simply give 150xp per nullification

this leads me to doubt if they actually have stats on stuff like, how often steals are blocked by winch usages

and these are stats that dota 1000% has access to

and can be trivially extracted from counterstrike demos

the finals doesn't have publicly available demos, so I'm skeptical they exist at all; without demos, embark can't even extract a subset of matches, and then run a data analysis on those demos to caculate the winrate of weapons at given ranges, which would, again, be fairly trivial in counterstrike

like, there's no bonus reward on nullifier for killing an enemy after they were nullified, whihc makes no sense, unless the stat is not being tracked

Similarly, there's no reward for blocking a steal with winch claw, or an enemy dying after being winched

How can you accurately stat track winch claw, if you're not tracking how many people die after being winched?

how can you accurate stat track evasive dash, if you're not calcuating how many times it saves your life?

why do you not gain bonus xp for healing to full after using a dash?

why does evasive dassh not reward you for dodging enemy specialisations such as winch claw?

or enemy gadgets such as rpg?

or enemy bullets?

there is no logic except that the stat is not monitored in such a way that they can reward players who do so

why is there no reward for getting a kill after using grapple?

Most of these things would be absolutely trivial to track, and yet, all the information we have indicates they are not being tracked, because players are not rewarded for doing the good thing in any way in game, when there's no reason not to, and in cases where the stat tracking is inevitable, they are rewarded

Winch claw does reward hits, which are basically tracked for free

but it does not reward kills, which would require a minimum level of effort from the developers to track

Mesh shield rewards damage block, but it does not reward you for being healed up while under a mesh, or for surviving lethal damage and then killing the enemy after using mesh

[stoic garden]

i dont see why we should overcomplicate exp rewards like that ngl

i like your idea in the way that it encourages using the spec in a certain way to teach its gameplay, sure, but this feels kinda unfitting somehow

[chilly granite]

these are not simple conditions

there is clearly the intent to reward meaningful play via gadget/weapon xp

[stoic garden]

cool, intended gadget use... like winch hitting an enemy, cuz it subsequently leads to killing them...

[chilly granite]

But it's also a huge issue to some sense, because throwing a pyro nade will print xp becasue it has a 20x damage amp

but nulli gives 150 flat even if you only used it once, but it was a gamewinning stall

[stoic garden]

lmao

[chilly granite]

if you do 5 damage with a pyro nade, you have more xp than a usage of nullifier

50 from throwing it, and 20x5 damage, 150 vs nulli's 150 for nulling someone

my point is that all gadgets would simply reward blind usage, if their goal was to reward all players to some degree

like pyro nade

but gadgets like glitch and null exist, which don't give any rewarded unless a valuable hit is landed, so there's clearly an intent to reward skill expression

[stoic garden]

another major thing is that the game doesnt tell you how anything earns exp, so your whole argument is kinda invalid until they let you see it ingame

[chilly granite]

yeah but when you hit a great null stall and see in post game +3000null xp

you'll work it out

I mean that is another issue somewhat? I'd liek to be able to see how I earned the xp

Dota's advanced stat tracking is freemium feature (you can use it for free, but it gets better if you pay a subscription)

but the stats are tracked anyway

but it's just like, stupid, to not reward good plays with xp, if you have access to that infomration

so my assumption is that they simply don't have access to the information

like there's absoutely no sense in heal beam and h+ leveling so badly

and they also don't reward if you if you save an ally from lethal damage

[stoic garden]

we need more spec levels lol

[chilly granite]

heal beam has all the weapon/gadget levels

[stoic garden]

but things like winch or dash dont

[chilly granite]

but yeah, regualr specs do need more levels also

[stoic garden]

gadgets too, data reshaper could award a tablet skin at the end too maybe?

if they can make store updates they can make level updates

[chilly granite]

@fervent berry appoh said you were the balance guy so I hope youre reading all this

[stoic garden]

levels are not balance lol

[chilly granite]

hahaha

I'm not saying that's it's easy to track everything, but they're not even tracking the lowhanging fruit, such as nullifier interrupting steals, revives and gadget usages

[stoic garden]

very unfortunate

[chilly granite]

I had to nullify over 1800 people to unlock the lvl 6 skin lol

[stoic garden]

why does he have "EU" role lmao

can we get multiple region roles guys

[chilly granite]

that's what it would be if it was always 150 xp, but it was buffed sometime after I started using it

before that it was 50xp i think?

[stoic garden]

idk tbh

[chilly granite]

anyway you get my point

[stoic garden]

kinda, we need more interesting exp rewards to entice players to use equipment more efficiently or with particular secondary purposes, maybe more levels on things that dont have them, actually show how exp is gained, and so on

[chilly granite]

but even without them, it's very hard for me to believe they have detailed and meaningful stat tracking for balance purposes if they aren't even stat tracking the most easy stuff for xp

also waepons not granting bonus xp on headshots is a crazy take

at least give it to the bow/sniper

like, you get more xp because you're doing more damage, but you don't get a multi on that, it's just the damage dealt

[stoic garden]

and things like lh1 already double exp gained cuz the headshot damage is crazy

[strange crystal]

any update on the thermal vision?

[sonic zephyr]

embark said that the real themal vision were the friends we've made along the way

[strange crystal]

Thermal vision cooked 🥀

i remember back in S1 it would practically give you wall hacks

[chilly granite]

also the game not granting assists to enemies who have been affected by non-damaging gadgets is crazy

if the enemy dies under my glitch grenade I should get an assist fro that damage done or no

[strange crystal]

its like the wing man you didnt get the girl you gave someone else a chance

[chilly granite]

if my friends didn't give me credit for being a good wingman they wouldn't be my friends

[stoic garden]

my friends love me for always meshing it in front of them

[candid vessel]

Gear xp as a whole needs reworking atp

[candid vessel]

YES

[shell sonnet]

not granting assists on enemies a different team killed as well

[shell sonnet]

but what?
unlock skins with xp?

would be awesome to not need to wait as much, but it takes the prestige out imo

any ideas?

[candid vessel]

Nah just the way its generated

Mostly for gadgets tbh. Its super inconsistent because its generated in different ways for each gadget

Not all of them get xp from deployment, some of them only get xp from deployment and not if they provide any use (like detecting w sonars and prox sensors iirc)

It means that some progress super fast and some are super slow

https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/Gadgets

Here each gadget has a breakdown of how its xp is generated

[candid vessel]

This is annoying too

[shell sonnet]

true tho, yeah

[unique cradle]

if anyone knows how rare this charm is now let me know

[last steeple]

You can still have it the code hasn't expired so it's not rare at all

[unique cradle]

really?

that was like a season 2 thing im pretty sure thats a long time if its still up

[last steeple]

I got mine a week ago caus I didn't know there was free charms

I'm playing since S1 lol

[unique cradle]

ive been playing since open beta

[long nymph]

You get that charm from using a code, it doesnt matter if you started playing today you could still get it right?

[last steeple]

Yeah yeah I just precised how much time I did play caus I found it funny that in 2 years of playing I never discovered the codes

[alpine sphinx]

idk if this is a controversial opinion, but i think the advantage defending teams get with shorter coin times is a bad design choice

it encourages preventing spawns and dragging the fight away from the objective

[sharp vortex]

First of all shockwaves base height is different now, I cant get to the top of the building in practice range any more when jumping with shockwave.

Also removing its synergy with pads I'd argue goes against the core advertised principle of the finals which is dynamism. An over-commitment to "remove tech" at the expense of what makes the final's great, dynamism and overlapping of systems allowing for creativity.

[pallid peak]

Any medium loadout yall like that isn’t goo, defib, and jump pad?

[pale river]

religious short, unrelated for anyone wondering

[old flame]

shockwave, revo, reshaper, defib, frag nade

[muted condor]

Keep your cult propaganda out of here

[kindred gorge]

Shockwave, Fire nade, landmine, and breach drill

[smoky barn]

Shockwave, Model, Explosive Mine, Jump Pad, Breach Drill

[boreal laurel]

I run riot shield, motion sensor, data reshaper, and either shockwave+breach drill or jump pad+demat

[alpine sphinx]

I HATE DEFIBRILLATORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

stupid fucking gadget man, winning teamfights for free just because you pick it

[pallid star]

I love that every single time something gets introduced, it somehow nerfs invis AGAIN, shockwave also cancels it now, why do you hate this spec embark..?

[winter osprey]

💀what

[alpine sphinx]

i said what i said, no other gadget provides as much value without any skill floor

[winter osprey]

They cant use defib if you teamwipe them

[alpine sphinx]

they cant win if you teamwipe them either

and they also cant steal,
they cant even kill you
So yeah the game is perfectly balanced, true

[winter osprey]

So the problem here is not defib, you just cant wipe them ontime

[alpine sphinx]

go bore someone else, troll, you havent played the game if this is your real take

[winter osprey]

[alpine sphinx]

2 matches in ranked and then went back to quick cash

[winter osprey]

You sound like the light that the Embark mentioned before the respec order

[fresh swallow]

as a light main it sounds like a Skill Issue.

[alpine sphinx]

light player's opinions arent valid

i bet you use dash too, with m11/arn

[fresh swallow]

dude just git gud, it is not that hard

it is not season 1 defib spam

[alpine sphinx]

"git gud" brother defi has been meta since the beginning of the game. There has NEVER been a period where something else was picked over it, not a single time. And it already has been nerfed like 7 times, which goes to show how fundamentally broken it is, and that it needs more adjustments

[fresh swallow]

they spawn as half health and they can't use their abilities, just learn to camp

[narrow bane]

let me introduce you to the glitch grenade

but yeah it is the single most powerful gadget in the game

[alpine sphinx]

glitch grenade is avoidable and has a far higher skill floor than defi

[narrow bane]

it really needs more adjustments

but like the defib is one of the defining traits of medium
its like one of the reasons you bring medium

[alpine sphinx]

yes, and that is horrendous

[fresh swallow]

because something is good that doesn't mean it is broken or op, people like you has skill issue, cry all the time and ask for nerf everything

[alpine sphinx]

yes, if something is still good to the point it is better than anything else, after it has been nerfed MULTIPLE times, that does mean it is fundamentally broken, thats literally how that works - there is an underlying issue, that a nerf doesnt fix

[stoic garden]

i think it's a very good thing actually, lest people just run the build with the best weapons no? unique and useful gadgets should be accounted for when you want to pick your build, it's just that we need more of them to balance out shit like defib (although it prob needs a small nerf itself)

[stoic garden]

underlying issue that could be fixed by removing iframes btw

from problem to free kill 😄

[alpine sphinx]

it will still be the most picked gadget, and still be just as valuable

[stoic garden]

people be sleeping on data reshaper though, and i bet embark will buff it again because it isnt in 90% of medium's loadouts

[stoic garden]

as i said, add more archetype defining gadgets or buff the shit ones, also will be less strong for stupid revives in the open, at least it punishes bad defibs a bit more

[pallid peak]

I main data but I’ve been on glitch mines recently since majority of my lobbies are db lights

I wonder what would be a good middle ground for medium when it comes to protecting themselves

Like lights can go invisible or run away really quick with dash/hook and heavies have shields so I wonder what a medium could get to compensate besides goo

[lucid marsh]

it's really the only reason to bring medium lol, maybe besides heal beam heavy combo

[sudden pewter]

This and allowing the revivee to reject a revive. Too many Mediums brainlessly revive and get their patients farmed.

[umbral cliff]

Brainlessly? Have you ever noticed how coins spawn whenever a contestant dies? What if they're actually just purposefully farming gold coins?

Maybe you vaultcels can't comprehend the defib grindset of the pirate's bootymaxxer?

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/brain-rot-lil-nas-x-mpreg-pregnant-discord-gif-5991367321020313704

[umbral cliff]

🗣️ 🔥

Banger response

[burnt siren]

chat im 130h bow main, i run vanish gate infuser;;; went from 17k to 27k rn in like 20-30 games. this set works for me pretty well for now, but is there any standard bow gadget sets/guides?

[noble saddle]

It's a little awkward to use but I think it's arguably viable.

I just think goo grenade is a bit more reliable utility, but I would think that running medbeam medium with data reshaper instead of goo grenade would be a viable loadout in some people's hands.

Especially in solo queue there's even a stronger argument because being able to spawn red barrels solves med beam mediums biggest weakness of not being able to easily destroy floors for high ground

Ok gang I think this is the low sodium beginner medium loadout here's the guide

Goo grenade to create cover. Always create cover before engaging

Jump pad to get high ground

Breach drill to correct pathing mistakes

Shockwave to retreat if dived. Push enemies off of yourself so they can stay in repeater range. This solves the hardest part of learning repeater which is not dying when getting dived

Repeater rewards playing poke and peek playstyle and has the most effective ranges. This loadout would be more punishing if it didn't have shockwave but shockwave makes it beginner friendly

What do y'all think

[viscid carbon]

Repeater for a beginner is crazy ngl

And breach drill is still a waste of a slot

The obvious replacement would be defib, but gas mine could also work to help teach stall

[alpine sphinx]

not rly, not everyone started learning automatic weapons from the start

[noble saddle]

I think for a total beginner you shouldn't fuck with defib lol

And imo repeater is easier to handle than the ARs now that shockwave solves the getting dived and dying problem

[viscid carbon]

If you want to recommend a click weapon to beginners, it’s gotta be the Crossbow or maybe the Revolver

[noble saddle]

Idk repeater is easier than both of those to me

[viscid carbon]

I don’t think lever actions are good beginner weapons

[noble saddle]

The hard part of repeater is surviving up close but you can just retreat/push enemies back with shockwave

[remote gust]

Just jumping back in after a while, what's the best medium weapons to use?

[viscid carbon]

The point of a beginner weapon is not be punishing if you miss, it’s like the whole point

[noble saddle]

Repeater, FCAR

[viscid carbon]

Revolver too

[remote gust]

Thank you good sir

What about the new crossbow

[viscid carbon]

Also great

[noble saddle]

This is true, and I don't think repeater is punishing if you miss lol that's the point

It has like an instant reload and the time between shots is very short, and has a larger clip than revolver.

And there's no recoil to control on it. The medium ARs all have awkward to handle recoil for a beginner. It's manageable but there's a learning curve. Repeater immediately just has you thinking about your positioning above all

[viscid carbon]

idk the P90 and Crossbow exist

But I guess the Repeater does force you to have good positioning

[muted condor]

Real ones use dual blades

[noble saddle]

P90 is ok but it has a shorter range than lots of new players feel comfortable engaging in imo. It's the same reason lots of beginner lights are dogwater with the M11

Crossbow would be OK but click tracking is kinda hard and it does have a big kick at the start of the mag so it's kinda unintuitive to line up a headshot.

If not repeater, I think FAMAS or Revolver would be the next picks

I'd agree with you that repeater wouldn't be good for a beginner but now we have shockwave so it's much much easier to retreat from a bad engagement than it ever has been. This is what new players need above all.

1. Not having to learn a difficult recoil pattern

2. Having a way out of a bad fight

3. Having a way to correct pathing mistakes.

The idea is you'd eventually graduate to the meta loadout but medbeam medium has you juggling support and damage at the same time, while you have bad retreat options for mistakes and no way to break walls, and that can be difficult to learn.

[stoic garden]

well i play demat so that's unfortunate

[noble saddle]

I like the utility of the Glitch barrels with Demat

[viscid carbon]

FAMAS is NOT a beginner weapon lol

[stoic garden]

i play double movement rn lol, I'm in lower ranks and my aim has become decent so i dont need goo to save myself as often anymore

[noble saddle]

You don't think so? I've always seen it as one of the easiest to handle medium guns

[viscid carbon]

It doesn’t have recoil, sure, but burst weapons I feel are harder to use than auto or semi ones

[stoic garden]

It's probably less easy than repeater, but the hipfire is pretty good and the recoil is basically nonexistent, it only takes some adjustment I'd say

[viscid carbon]

They’re a weird hybrid and require both good crosshair placement and tracking

[noble saddle]

I think it's not created equal

XP and M60 are incredibly easy to use full auto guns but the AK and FCAR both are kinda hard to use until you have a good understanding of controlling recoil.

P90 is easier to shoot but the range you play it in is more chaotic.

I think the medium in general just has the hardest guns to use lol so this loadout is meant to make them a bit less punishing and really develop the habit of playing behind cover

Heavy has some hard guns too, but I think it's full autos are easier than mediums

[remote gust]

Is the cl40 still bad

[stoic garden]

it's worse as of late iirc

they sorta nerfed splash radius, yet again

you'd have to look at changelogs in cl40's wiki page

[wind cliff]

buff arn

[stoic garden]

HELL NAW

[keen olive]

thoughts on making xp54 meta again?

[stoic garden]

for that to be real they'd have to make it not be a worse arn in 90% of cases

i dont really mind, but I'd rather light (or everything and everyone really) had equally strong options without a particular outlier

[azure yacht]

What’s a good build for medium dual blades

[alpine sphinx]

shockwave, zip/pad, reshaper, defi

[winter osprey]

The one that works for you

[slow linden]

Real ones use riot shield STOP RESISTING ah weapon

[floral bane]

Gas loadout. Good or bad

On medium

[muted condor]

Use the arena security skin for maximum effectiveness

[slow linden]

It's the only riot shield skin I own other than the alfa acta reskin from a few seasons ago and some leveled skins

[smoky barn]

It might be, but:

[astral grove]

gas, fire and smoke
create and cancel all the area effects

[alpine sphinx]

gas and smoke dont cancel eachother

you can have gas in smoke that cant get burned afaik

[astral grove]

unless it overlaps the smoke cloud perfectly you can land a flame nade on the border I think

I heard a myth that glitch cancels smoke

[stable bloom]

😭 the enemy can use them to!?

[opal token]

Yeah if it's still up anyone can use it, I'm always flanking people when they use a warp to try to get a revive statue to safety.

[candid vessel]

Yes

[dense oasis]

Opinions wanted: Should the Heavy's Charge and Slam have a brief (<1 sec) charge-up before the move is executed?

[candid vessel]

Also yes

[candid vessel]

Hell no

[dense oasis]

feels like a get-out-of-jail-free card atm

[candid vessel]

I still think they should revert the nerf

[candid vessel]

Thats the whole point?

[dense oasis]

Should it be?

[candid vessel]

Yes because if it doesn’t do that its useless

[dense oasis]

I could see that being the case if you can't think of any other way to use it, sure

[kindred gorge]

It’s not. The windup is long enough to punish unwinable situations so it’s pretty much just as much of an escape tool as any other movement gadget

[dense oasis]

Personally never noticed the windup exist while grounded

[past parcel]

Tweak the crossbow, make it so rpg can do atleast somw damage to a riot shield

[stark oar]

Yes

[kindred gorge]

That’s kinda the point, the sweet spot is for it to not be inconvenient to use but not being so easy it’s a get out of jail

[hazy hemlock]

I can shake on fcar i disagree in akm that shit it ez af

[candid vessel]

AKM is pretty OP icl

[young ore]

Fcar is just kinda better tbh

[candid vessel]

They’re both insanely good damage wise but the akm having a million damage per mag on top of that makes it stupidly good

Has no drawbacks

[polar cedar]

famas is the most goated weapon oat, thank you for the buff embark 🙏

[candid vessel]

Fcar is also kinda op rn icl

[floral bane]

Good argument

[candid vessel]

Its the reason i haven’t used gas anything since S1

And the reason why gas needs a massive buff imo

[muted condor]

The real question is when are they going to stop fucking the cl40 because light players suck at the game

[polar cedar]

fcar is busted but the ak is really good too, magazine buff made it so much better

[candid vessel]

Most unnecessary buff OAT

[polar cedar]

fcar or ak?

[candid vessel]

Both ngl

[polar cedar]

fcar got buffed way too hard, ak nah

[whole wave]

Revert Shockwave nerf

[candid vessel]

Its not that the buff did much, more the fact that it was already S tier

[teal owl]

Isaiah 55:6
“Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near.”

[polar cedar]

huh

[polar cedar]

I’d argue A, it wasn’t super oppressive just easy to use

[candid vessel]

Pike reference? (556)

[candid vessel]

On both the using and receiving end i find it to be roughly equal in terms of firepower with the fcar, but its just got so much damage in each mag

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/the-devil-gif-20640372

[azure yacht]

What’s a good weapon for the winch claw on heavy

[mystic oak]

a shotgun idk

[candid vessel]

Flamethrower

[fringe nacelle]

Does dash poke light make more sense than grapple poke light?

[muted condor]

I just gotta say this update feels horrible and is completely pointless for testing anything

[candid vessel]

Fr

I forget how stupid op the fcar and akm are

Actually playing the game on easy mode

[hazy hemlock]

Grapple is better for it atm

[kindred gorge]

Spear & Sledge, SA12, pretty much any automatic weapon but Shak 50 if you wanna play the game on baby easy mode

A pretty noteworthy twitch steamer uses KS23 with it and that works well for her

BFR and winch used to be meta but has since dropped in effectiveness, but should still perform decently

[signal vine]

I love the AKM.

[slow linden]

Anything

[coral mica]

SENDING MESGGA E TO LEVL

[hushed breach]

this isnt wepaons but what was that one hat or cosmetic from like season 1 that would turn your outfit like monochromatic or something

[arctic agate]

When will the p90 and crossbow be nerfed it's genuinely the most boring and annoying things to fight against

[cosmic oriole]

the finals mythic 50 akimbo skin 🥶 🥶 🥶

[pallid star]

so hover pad is just bad, right?

like i cannot get it to work better than pad or goo

[slender bear]

Ngl I have no idea what they're thinking when it comes to loadout designs.
Why can our evasion class only have one or two movement options available at any given time while our defensive class can shut those moves down with CC just as often?
Running Grapple is a death sentence because you aren't escaping Winch Claw, much less Winch Claw AND Lockbolt.
I don't even mind that much bc Dash exists, but making one third of your playerbase dependant on exactly one thing to evade every other win button in the game just turns that into a win button too.

[hazy hemlock]

I been saying this+ to add on why is the jack of all trades class capable of more movement than the evasive class.
Shockwave
Jumppad
Zipline
Hoverpad.
Light cant even have full evasive shit. Like my medium uses goo instead of zipline and I need it have more util and movement than any light loadout would give me its odd

[slender bear]

I'm fully expecting both Medium and Heavy to get another movement ability each before Light gets one, It's been two years since we got a movement ability and it's really just for teammates anyways.

[hazy hemlock]

Oh and ofc defib over pad. I get more distance and better evasivmess than light on just Shockwave and pad

[slender bear]

I think Embark just doesn't like having classes that are actually good at what they're supposed to be "specialized" in.

Medium is supposed to be the healer, but they're worse at it than Light.
Light is supposed to be good at stealth and evasion, but Medium is better than them in evasion and the "stealth" is more likely to give you away than hide you.

Heavy is the only one that's really safe from this, but an argument could absolutely be made that Medium is better at fortification than Heavy too.

[hazy hemlock]

Heavy deffo has fortification on lock. But medium absolutely is a better movement class than light. Shockwave feels like a light spec. This season is slap on famas or fcar and just play like im using light with shockwave. But cuz its also versatile i can have goo to go with defib and jumppad. Im only.missing destruction from my kit lol otherwise its as perfect as you can get

[slender bear]

How are you gonna make a class that's all about being fast and then make the support class better at moving?
How are you gonna make a class that's all about being tanky and defensive and then give the support class a loadout FULL of fortification tools?
How are you gonna make a support class, then make it WORSE at SUPPORT than both of the other classes but then make that class BETTER at the things the other classes were built for?

[hazy hemlock]

The only viable light build being support is lowkey fucking insane imo. I actually saw a really good idea in this channel someone said that defib should be tied to heal beam

[slender bear]

I think the only real argument for Medium being a better defensive class comes from the fact that you have a dedicated fortification spec alongside gas mines, glitch traps, and the same old goo grenades.
Medium can get the same outcomes, even if they aren't that tanky

(Gas Mines are also seriously slept on, most people don't run fire and you basically get 24/7 coverage on objective)

[slender bear]

That actually sounds like a good idea, it would make the game much less frustrating for people who keep getting bad defibs

[hazy hemlock]

Right? Lol

[hazy hemlock]

Yeah heavy still does it better. Medium has variations of movement loadouts tho which is insane. Pick your poison Shockwave or demat. Some variation of defib, goo, jump and hoverpad, mines etc.

And they are all meta. Ttks also dont make up for it either

[alpine sphinx]

i think if this happens, reviving should deplete the heal beams charge

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif

[worthy copper]

smoke bomb skin idea, plastic bag with white powder or flour bag

[alpine sphinx]

i hate ranked sometimes, if the other teams decide to fuck your team over in particular, there is absolutely nothing you can do

i also feel like third partying has become much more prevalent recently, and even incentivized, despite Embark's repeated claims of wanting to deter third partying

[stuck wedge]

new Light spec-> the ring. when you wear it you have thermal vision & no one can hurt you. but you may shoot out of it & be briefly invulnerable like a respawn. you may curse one single player to take more damage per death.

amusement inspired by some hobbit post in gen chat + the death mark idea suggested in here a while back.

[strange fox]

"& no can hurt you"

[stuck wedge]

it would be funny if being cursed meant you either/and emanated v weak poison gas that only hurt team mates but could suddenly double jump (& edited btw lol)

it would be crazy if you could destroy gas by simply walking into it like fire (as the one)

i should add you’re basically nullified but not invis maybe.

[foggy snow]

Who's working on the weapon data now?

Came back after a nice 6-month break, and looking to get in contact with them.

[alpine sphinx]

is it just me or does the current spawn logic and meta heavily favor third partying?

i feel like every single match there are 3 teams on one point while one team just gets free qualifications

and not just today, but for weeks

[bitter surge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/M4Xpk3Dudy

[pallid peak]

It’s crazy how hard you can bully someone with goo

[stoic garden]

I've also felt this way

third partying has been a thing since the dawn of time though

now the spawns feel slightly less Extreme between the two cashouts so you get to choose which one to raid with less time loss

[alpine sphinx]

yeah but its never been this extreme, the amount of 3rd partying and griefing has definitely gotten worse

[burnt siren]

part of the game knowing when to gtfo to the other cash or let the other teams fight
or style out and clear both

[limpid hull]

Since when was medium the healer

It has slow healing and very low amounts compared to the light

[last steeple]

It's slower but has almost the same amount I think, and if you don't overheat I think you'll heal more often

[limpid hull]

Yeah true

But I feel like most people don't know how to properly use itm they'll use it mid fight when allies and themselves are full health and then they end up passing kills

[burnt siren]

medium is the only consistent healer no?
only them can have 4k+ supp per round i feel like. recently had a crazy fucking shield healbeam teammate
final round 2L 1M vs 3H, dude had 6k healing on us and tanked the shit out of the heavies

i was in awe since it felt like the first ever good shield M ive ever met(we destroyed the other team), but healbeam is the goat honestly

[broken mulch]

consistently maybe but its 100% possible to have more than 4k support on light from h+, the most ive had was 6k

although admittedly i was playing sword light so half the time there wasnt anything i could do other than heal

[burnt siren]

yea no thats fair
just feels like light has more things to do, and M can give more healing in general
i run bow infuser and if we sync with the team i have 2-3k healing

[broken mulch]

medium can give more healing in general cuase its closer to the team

[burnt siren]

yea

[whole wave]

Shockwave needs changes but I think it fits well with the medium class, but that nerf was a bit heavy, it went from meta to bad, for 1 nerf thats to much, but light needs a 4rth spec, and their invis needs a massive time buff, or needs to not drain while standing still

[viscid carbon]

the problem with the infuser is the rate that it heals at but embark doesn’t understand that for some reason

surely 800 rpm couldn’t possibly be why the gadget is so good

[whole wave]

Objectively infuser should just instantly heal 50 hp, and go on cooldown, much more balanced for the light imo

[viscid carbon]

no it just shouldn’t have a RoF so fast that it makes the target effectively invulnerable

[whole wave]

The hp total is to much tho, it shouldn't heal as much as the mediums spec

[viscid carbon]

man the problem is how fast it heals that amount of hp

[whole wave]

Both need nerfs, or it needs a major overhaul/change, aren't they doing that to the Heavy nade launcher

[latent stump]

Wait, what does the APS turret do i dont understand it

[fallen pivot]

it cancels explosives that are dropped in the range of the APS

[latent stump]

Oh

[calm yarrow]

It cancels all throwable gadgets: C4, mines, grenades, dome shield...
It cancels some of the shells: all grenade launchers, RPG...
And some of the goo gun. But goo gun pretty fast killing it.

[candid vessel]

Idk why they nerfed the regen of the h+ infuser when the problem is that it can fully heal anyone in 1-2 seconds. The capacity of it is fine but the rate it heals is a joke

[candid vessel]

EXACTLY

Honestly i think they should rework it to have 6 shots that each heal 50-60 and give it like 150-200rpm

[calm yarrow]

I just thought...
What if instead of heal-machine-gun infuser will be heal-shotgun?

[burnt siren]

thats a crazy idea i stand behind
it also could actually be actually buckshot not a slug to reward sticking closer to the team for max possible healing

like 3 shots each healing max 60-80hp or something
the issue with one big healing shot though is that its still a LOT of healing in a short amount of time

[calm yarrow]

But its not effective on the long distances. Like, you need to be in legs of the teammate for full heal potential.
Aaaand it may be not convenient, because lights mostly play far from team. Poke tactic and all that.

[vocal stone]

What do y'all think about bringing back old demat (at least removing that god awful delay) and reverting shockwave's vertical mobility nerf?

[calm yarrow]

Or! Something like goo gun! Heal-sprayer! Spawns clouds of healing, that can stuck on each other, but with much shorter life time.
Not burst healing, but still effective. With 15-20 meters heal-jet length.

[calm yarrow]

I dont use demat, so can't say anything about it. But old shockwave was literally perfect. It don't needed nerf or buff. So yea, I agree, nerf of shockwave need to be reverted.

[burnt siren]

that feels spiritually similar to heavy's orb imo

[vocal stone]

Demat was like, perfect skill and creativity expression tool imo. It's only downside was the fact that it was significantly better than other mediums specs. Because turret is turret, it was always shit, and healbeam is good, but it's not that interesting, running around licking your heavy's balls all the time. And Embark has peculiar habit of equalizing specs and weapons not by buffing weaker ones, but making stronger ones jankier and less responsive

[calm yarrow]

Yep, just as they nerfed my precious goo gun recently.

[vocal stone]

Yeah, and you saw what happened. People were livid and Embark reverted that change. And so, if opinions of playerbase are really that potent, then, we might be able to bring demat and shockwave back to their glory days

[alpine sphinx]

embark reverted that change because it caused bugs, not because of community outrage

[calm yarrow]

Mmm... yea, its similiar. Instead of the detail, that each heal-clouds stack heal on each other, while heal orb disperse its heal between teammates.

[calm yarrow]

And this is really sad part...

[alpine sphinx]

yes.....

[vocal stone]

Oh, damn

[alpine sphinx]

in the statement they said that the reason it was reverted was that you could make teammates invincible while stealing

not a word about outrage

[vocal stone]

I have hope that they at least considered it and they knew how much more shit would've flooded all chats if they didn't address it

But yeah, i saw that they will probably push through with goo change in the update 10.6

Or maybe they will come to some sort of compromise, who knows

[calm yarrow]

I started to think that they need their game right for their opinion, what saying players not matter, if their opinions do not match with developers.

But yea. I play only on goo sledge, this is literally one and only build, that i have fun with. And my last drops of hopes and dreams on this 10.6 update.

[vocal stone]

I mean yeah, in-game data is more relatable and significant for them than discord server outrage. But sometimes they do listen to players, so i didn't lose my hope yet

[burnt siren]

ive thought about it for a few minutes and
i think static healing is already heavy's thing
most amount of healing on hand is mediums thing
and quick burst healing should be lights thing

the only way to balance this i think is to kneecap the amount of healing light can give. i think just one shot of 100hp would be decent. high skill expression to shoot yo teammate from afar, but cant heal up your heavies from 0 to 300 in a matter of seconds

it will destroy infuser viability but leave a specific usage, less healmeta

[vocal stone]

The moment i picked up on shockwave+cerberus build - they nerfed shockwave 🫠

I'd like to switch to demat, and i do sometimes, but it just not suitable for fast paced fights and cqc overall imo, because of that delay and the fact that single demat action sometimes consumes 2 charges instead of 1

[alpine sphinx]

my hammer is not hammering

[somber tiger]

they really just need to add a heal grenade. they already have a heal barrel but no similar gadget

[calm yarrow]

Yep, sledge now sometimes not registering hits on walls.
And I hate this shit.

And its pretty usual bug, actually.

[alpine sphinx]

I know, I mostly play sledge

[calm yarrow]

Can you create bug report?

[alpine sphinx]

Idk if bug or intended game design, cause technically I was hitting the railing of that things I was on, which might have more HP than a hammer swing, and Hammer can't hit through 2 objects at once I think

But if it's intended then it sucks ass

[calm yarrow]

There is no sound of sledge hitting the wall. Its a bug.
HP of simple walls, not hard pillars or something like that, should not prevent oneshot from sledge.
In other way... why to pick up sledge, if its isn't performs its main function??? Its a freaking delirium, if this is intended.

[alpine sphinx]

Yeah man idk, I have kind of accepted (not really) that embark doesn't care about melee players. There has been barely anything done to make melee more viable, and if the melee rework doesn't fix it, I doubt they will ever improve melee's spot in this game

[calm yarrow]

Okay, then I'm create bug report...

With your video.

[alpine sphinx]

Yeah go ahead, it's just not worth the hassle to me, since I don't think they care

At least before S11 I don't expect to see any changes to melee

[burnt siren]

i think if melee becomes even close to meta it becomes insufferable for everyone lowkey
didnt play for long but from what ive observed
...that said, melee does get dunked on quite a lot...

[calm yarrow]

Welp, then some part of the community just leave the game.
Aaaand it should be insufferuble, actually. Melee need to compete with guns, in other cases its just useless garbage of the resources of the game, our pc's, servers and code in general.
Melee need to be strong in melee. Crazy, isn't it? I'm pro goo sledge, even without goo nerf I have a pal, that can outgame me simply keeping distance. And he isn't even a gold. He just knows, how I play, and how play other sledges and goo sledges.

[haughty copper]

Melee also has to not just be an upgrade over the shotguns tho

While I now use shotguns now melee has such an easier time aiming and then medium melee gets blocking/reflecting that it could ending up that shotguns are worse melee

[steep gulch]

what are ur opinions on riot shield?

what if they would make that meta

[gleaming aspen]

it was meta b4 i thimk and it was because the hitbox was broken bigger than it actually was

[indigo nexus]

it was never meta in the usual sense of the word

[gleaming aspen]

o

[indigo nexus]

it became popular at one point but was not that good

[haughty copper]

It'd be so over

[alpine sphinx]

Yes, in very close range it has to. Shotguns have more range than melee, ergo they should deal less damage. Melee needs to be directly in people's face while shotguns usually have 3-8m of viable range

[gleaming aspen]

i c tbanks for clarifying

[alpine sphinx]

It became popular because there was a 1k$ cash kill reward in world tour with it while it was in a decent state, that was it.

[haughty copper]

Right but if melee was to be buffed then the tradeoff for no reloading and significantly easier time aiming can't just be a few meters of added range

Especially when compared with the sh1900

[alpine sphinx]

Imo that feature should be implemented in ranked, off meta picks get higher kill rewards

[alpine sphinx]

Sh1900 can kill anything faster than any melee weapon though aside from dagger

[haughty copper]

Yes currently, but also that's also assuming perfect aim which can be safely assumed for pros but not casuals

And then for casuals the weapon its easier to do better in will win

[alpine sphinx]

So you're talking about skill floors, ceilings and skill expression. Yes melee has an easier time up close. But melee's skill expression comes from getting that close and avoiding long range engagements

[burnt siren]

thats a really weird way to look at it, niche gaming styles arent garbage, and i especially dont see how the hell can it "waste resources of the game", if its already there

game should be insufferable
i know what you mean, but its a terrible take to phrase it like that xD, straight up it should NOT be insufferable
melee IS strong in melee. your pal outgames you because he can keep the distance, so you dont even have a chance to engage, not a weapon problem(not a you problem either, there is a reason humanity went to guns instead of sledges)

[alpine sphinx]

This is a game, realism should not play any role in weapon balance

[burnt siren]

im... im not talking realism???

[alpine sphinx]

"there is a reason humanity went to guns instead of sledges" you are.

[indigo nexus]

"just a few meters" is a bit of an understatement imo, the ability to chip players at longer distances and not immediately lose the kill regardless of how low they are just because they make a little distance counts for quite a bit.

[burnt siren]

....... its not realism. im making a point that there is a reason your average gun is better than a melee weapon, because you can just not be in melee range

[calm yarrow]

Then... I just don't get, what you was saying about in the first message.

[haughty copper]

Yes, and that's also shotguns skill expression but now you have to aim and reload

And while rn I don't believe there's much of an issue a melee buff might make that tradeoff for extra damage mostly useless

[indigo nexus]

Sure, the SA1216 sucks at range, but someone can't run away from it in the same way that they can run away from a sledgehammer, they're still prone to dying until they're much further than a couple of meters away or behind cover

[candid vessel]

Nah when they buffed it in s7 i think it was it became too good

I picked it up for like the first time ever and immediately steamrolled the first tournament i played with it super easily

[burnt siren]

that melee shouldnt be meta, thats it
it was unrelated to previous discourse lol, i just think if melee will get significantly buffed the experience will get worse
the state right now though is indeed sad though lol, bugs should be fixed 100%

[haughty copper]

Yeah I did forget about the "scare" tactics
When it's me (usually a light) vs a riot shield I know there's nothing they can realistically do as I walk away but at least in my experience in s8 till now, sword is easier than sh1900 (my 2 most used weapons), I just find the sh1900 more fun and the tradeoff for aim and reload for light instakills and such just a bit more worth than the ease of use of melee
Which would go away if melee was buffed probably

[calm yarrow]

I see. xd

Actually, I'd love to see some quick melee combos on sledge in the future. Sledge is good, but it can be gooder, and still can't be meta.

[burnt siren]

yaya

im myself a niche player lmao, bow xd

[calm yarrow]

Bow is a niche? o.o

I see it so often!

[burnt siren]

damn
i dunno, im 28k rn and in rating its like never ever, swords are more often
could be a skill issue

[candid vessel]

Is anyone else sick of almost all the full auto weapons being way too good

Its pissing me off atp

[alpine sphinx]

yeah, ranked is basically only M11/XP-54, FCAR/AKM and at least some variety in heavies

but thats not really anything new, its been like that before repeater and bfr were dominant, and now that they arent picked as much, its back to the same

the map design and modifiers of many maps heavily favor that type of playstyle. Sitting on roofs and playing mid-long range high ground is how embark wants everyone to play the game

[hazy hemlock]

Xp-54is NOT meta in the slightest. I refuse to believe your going agains good lights running that

[alpine sphinx]

XP, M11 and ARN are all different flavors of aids, it doesnt really matter what gets picked

[candid vessel]

Its not as op as the m11 but it is very good

The worst offenders are m11/fcar/akm/shak imo

[alpine sphinx]

i agree

[candid vessel]

All way too good considering their ease of use

[hazy hemlock]

Xp isn't meta at all but uponseeing your tag im realiseing your a melee main which means your suffering from unnessecary nerfs so I actually will not comment cuz you get unnessecary nerfs because of skill issues

[hazy hemlock]

I was 110%about to rip into you then you showed equal hate for all classes stuff and nodded i appreciate the consistency lmfao

[candid vessel]

As someone who plays all classes i think almost all full autos across the board are too good

[alpine sphinx]

M11 and FCAR and AKM are absolutely worse than shak

[hazy hemlock]

The issue is players are dogshit and demand balance changes around skill issuesand embark keeps humoring them tbh.

[alpine sphinx]

there is way more variety in heavy weapon choices than with medium and light

[candid vessel]

FAAAAAAAACTS

[cursive owl]

Light just doesn't have a convincing option that's not full auto

[hazy hemlock]

Meta wise no. Medium has the largest variety. You can actually say medium doesnt have a weapon below C tier after Shockwave addition passively made their melee good

[alpine sphinx]

im talking pickrates, its all akm/fcar and sometimes p90

[cursive owl]

Lh1 maybe

[hazy hemlock]

This is also just untrue. Matter has been strong for a while but because poke meta it gets ignored. V9s and lh1 are also strong. Realistically lh1 and matter are probs light best guns BUT medium atm does everything youd wanna do on light with a movement build/has BETTER movement. Meanwhile dash is a damn near 8 second CD so its like eh why would you run matter atp yk?

[candid vessel]

thats why people disliked the poke meta. Theres a difference between weapons with a high skill ceiling and weapons that are inherently op

[hazy hemlock]

Matter atm has the stats of prime model

[tranquil sapphire]

Does shockwave not knock over stuff anymore?

[hazy hemlock]

Actually I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Bad players LOVE poke meta because they get to ignore most aspects of the game. Which means they can feel good without being good.

And because bad players are the ones who cant track and stay bitching about
Non auto weapons when they are good
Melee weapons
Light and lights dash despite the fact that light has never spend a single season being best class in game
We keep going around the same circle

Ive been on medium all season and this shit is piss easy compared to light. And famas is OP af but its a burst gun so most people dont comment on it lol

[hazy hemlock]

It does

[hazy hemlock]

Oh well yeah. People dont wanna learn anything they just wanna pick easy shit so autos will be most popular in any game with guns

[tranquil sapphire]

huh. ill try it again maybe im wrong.

[hazy hemlock]

For example Famas has never been below a top 5 gun in the entire game but is never a popular pick lmfao. You'd think how long its been so strong people would use it but they dont

[stoic garden]

fcar is just easier while just as effective unfortunately

[hazy hemlock]

most effective best gun in game atm. This season is the first time its been stronger than famas since the famas dropped tho

[stoic garden]

😔

[candid vessel]

Nah when the famas dropped fcar was god i swear

Fcar was doing 25 damage for most of season 2 iirc

[candid vessel]

Just checked, mid season update is when it got the big change

[woven cliff]

Can we talk about the SR (lights sniper) and that is unusable against lights at mid/close range in the new CASHOUT event

[finite marsh]

Do you guys recommend the h +infused

[haughty copper]

If you care any bit about your team its one of the best light gadgets out there

[finite marsh]

Ok

👍

[haughty copper]

If your a light main that runs off into the distance then there's not too much of a point

I, as a db light main, run the h+ infuser constantly because I need my team to be effective for me to be effective and in certain scenarios where I'm out ranged swapping to a emergency medic is helpful

And because of it I often get best support score in a match

[hazy hemlock]

Nah that was RIGHT when fcar got nerfed. Funny thing is your right but for the wrong reason. Famas has STAYED broken BUT it keeps getting overshadowed by other weapons. Remember we went right into model meta. Then Into pike

[hazy hemlock]

Ahh yeee true lol

[placid ermine]

I as a dagger light main need my team to be effective/aggressive to use them as bait/meat shields to allow me to slip in from behind and secure kills/stall cashouts

[mighty pelican]

after the recent 93R buff would yall say its better than the v9s

[haughty copper]

Ye exactly, it let's your teammates make plays that then allow you to clean up the enemies that run away and/or get low
And then in super long range fights were both our weapons are effectively useless you can become a temp medic

[placid ermine]

I see I didn't think about it that way but then the question becomes what to swap out to put H+ in because often if I'm not able to get a bs I use nullify so that has to stay gateway is a must have so that's staying and vanishing bomb I use when I'm low or need to disengage what do you do here?

[placid ermine]

Yes if you can hit your shots especially heads it melts

[weak acorn]

Please fix this bug! Medium build, heal beam, model 18. When you’re healing your teammate, and then you press Y to switch back to your shotgun, it automatically fires a shot. Worst part is, the shot doesn’t actually deal damage but still takes ammo. I’ve found that if I use RB to switch back it doesn’t happen, but muscle memory of pressing Y to switch back triggers it every time. Thank you!

[haughty copper]

i would take out nullifier i just see it as annoying the enemy especially as something like killing ur opponent with ur weapon does the same and works better, especially if you use gas and explosive canisters often
but overall i just run away and do things like loop back on myself to send enemies on the wrong path or straight into my db which if a light is chasing me is a instakill

i also do things like trying to destroy the enemies vantage point with thermal bore or explosive canisters

[opal token]

Valid take, the nullifier is genuinely useless and I've never lost a point or a fight because I got hit with it, all it does is give you a second to plan your counter. In my experience getting nullified actually helps me out more than the enemy who hit me with it.

[placid ermine]

Hmm

[weak acorn]

Nah Nullifier is useful. So many times I’ve saved a point from a Heavy thief by nullifying. Dome shields, Barricades, Goo, Teammates, etc. One quick dash into the point and a nullification will save you. It gives the light class a way to defend without having to Elim.

[burnt dirge]

I find the CB-01 Repeater peak but really difficult to use. Any tips?

[glacial mesa]

umm try focusing on the physical sight over your target more, that's helped me rather than looking just at the player

also strafing is usefull

like if your target is moving one direction move the same, you can also make micro ajustments left and right with strafing

[hazy hemlock]

Atp they are close in strength so its kinda preference on how you wanna play. But the point he was making was that most people dont wanna take time to be good so they will continue using the m11 just cuz its easy and consistent. Stronger players tho will be leaning more towards lh1(objectively best light gun atm) matter(second best but suffering cuz poke atm) then 93r and v9s can be debated on which is better but both are strong on class rn. Main issue light has rn is just that medium does most of what you would wanna do on light sadly with less punishment cuz you ha e more health

[glacial mesa]

I think v9s is slightly stronger, especially if you hit your headshots it does have a faster ttk

[glacial mesa]

yeah it's true and their movement speed isn't that far off and you have some good mobility gadgets for medium

[hazy hemlock]

Its motlstly an aim and positioning thing overall so first tip would be work on aim, second pay attention to positioning, take high ground where you can and anywhere you are know where possible flank routes are. Third its nice to open fights for a chunk of dmg or close them. Try to aim for the highest priority target to incentiveise your team to go for them or if your team already engaged go for whoever they engaged as the dmg feels like you got gut checked by goku.

[hazy hemlock]

Its arguable. 93r is gonna have more consistency at all ranges and you'll just 2 burst another light

[glacial mesa]

yeah thats fair, the v9s has more capability to kill more people on 1 mag though

[burnt dirge]

Hm thank you. My aim is so-so atm, especially with that weapon.

[burnt dirge]

V9S twin 🔥

[glacial mesa]

yeah also try to have steady not nervous and jittery aim

[burnt dirge]

Gotcha, thank you

[hazy hemlock]

If you can get your aim down you'll be fine tbh but the positioning bit is SUPER important overall for game feel. Not knowing how to position will just get you cooked so I would say you can fix aim through the practice range and playing, the positioning you just gotta work on being aware and finding strong positions that wont get you pushed easily which is a bit harder.

[hazy hemlock]

My fav gun sadly im not a support light so im relegated to medium until light gets love

[burnt dirge]

Makes sense, it is a really good weapon if im over the enemy

[burnt dirge]

Lol. Also controversial opinion but imo melee is bullshit

Eapecially with invisibilty on light

[glacial mesa]

what's yalls opinion on the akm, it's by far my favorite medium gun

[glacial mesa]

It's annoying to get an invisible sword player all up on you ill give you that

[burnt dirge]

Ive barely ever used it, but people seem to really love it. My favo is the M1897

[hazy hemlock]

Medium has more movement than light and thats not debatable atm. Just by running jumppad and Shockwave i have more movement and versatility with that movement than light can have with its entire loadout which is kinda unfair for light lol. Im pretty sure I have a damn near perfect loadout.
Shockwave
Jumppad
Defib
Goo.
This means I have movement, gadget disruption, enemy disruption and defense as well as easy positioning and team movement all in one kit. The only thing this kit doenst have is destruction

[glacial mesa]

I think the gun that has most potential for medium is the revolver, it has a really high skill ceiling

[burnt dirge]

Thats fair

[hazy hemlock]

Baby's first gun/ old reliable. Theres stronger options for sure but you cant go wrong with it. Decent dmg. Large clip, consistent. What else could you ask for

[glacial mesa]

yeah im not good at it, but ive encouuntered people who are and it's nasty

[burnt dirge]

Im uh 50-50. But when it works, it WORKS damn

[glacial mesa]

for sure, the other medium assult rifle has better dmg per second but the lower mag size leaves no room for error

[hazy hemlock]

Medium doenst have a weapon below like B teir atm. Shockwave did wonders for its melee and all its guns exept debatably the cl40(which technically isnt a gun) is A tier or higher lol.med atm has the most gun versatility

[hazy hemlock]

Theres deffo room for errors cuz its OP but I see the vision lol

[glacial mesa]

yeah cl40 is ok but I think that it's not very strong atm

It dosen't seem like it has much of a leg up against like an assult rifle and then a grenade every once in a while

[hazy hemlock]

Cl40 is probs also b tier is the crazy part. Like its not strong but its not BAD. Every med gun is in A tier or better otherwise and Shockwave jumped its melee to b tier

Maining medium this season has been eye opening for how bad people are tbh

[noble saddle]

I think that AK is kind of hard for a beginner because it doesn't intuitively encourage a shoot from behind cover playstyle quite like the poke options on medium do

[hazy hemlock]

Like I knew it was easy but damn dude its still this free? Last time I mained medium was when I solo qued to diamond in S4 to prove a point

[noble saddle]

I agree that medium is the hardest carry class in the game for least effort if you have good fundamentals

[hazy hemlock]

I disagree just dont be dumb about how you shoot tbh.

[hazy hemlock]

Or do you mean like because of the large clip people forget to go for cover

[glacial mesa]

what do you think meta trio is, I think double medium with healing beams and then a heavy with mesh shield is really underlooked

[hazy hemlock]

Dog its so free. I really dont understand the complaints about other classes people have on medium. The only gun in the game thats out DPSing me if I land my shots is the damn shak. I can play a movement(light) playstyle but have more health so its not as harsh, the ttks are nutty, all their guns are strong so I can really play whatever gun I want in them. And dash is not hard to track. Im on controller with no aim assist and do fine there is no excuse for the mnk and aim assist controller players dude. And im on a 64 inch TV that was made in like 2019.

[noble saddle]

I think that when you have a gun where you're thinking about controlling recoil when you shoot it can kinda cross wires with the part of your brain that's thinking about positioning

I was working on the repeater build with a buddy of mine and he's had difficulty remembering to use goo grenades in a fight, but with repeater he learned quick how important they are lol.

Just seemed that with a gun like repeater because shooting it at mid to far range is so easy, you can think more about your utility

And then also because shooting it up close is hard, it's easier to switch to utility to escape a bad fight instead of just trying to hit trade which is important

[hazy hemlock]

MMH. Movement medium to make up for missing light
Support medium as is standard
Heavy

Plus you get 2 defibs and jump pads lmfao

[noble saddle]

If someone says medium can't carry it's a self report that they have no fundamentals

[hazy hemlock]

Ahhh I see like a mental stack thing. Tryina learn has to many moving parts. I see your point

[hazy hemlock]

Ain't you a medium main😭 it be they own people lmfao

[noble saddle]

I main heal beam medium with FCAR yeah goo, pad, defib

I just naturally put that loadout together before I even looked into the meta so that really just locked in for me that medium is the class meant for me lol

[glacial mesa]

i do medium akm heal beam pyro grenade jump pad and defibs

[noble saddle]

Pyro instead of goo ☠️ why you playing the game on hard mode

[hazy hemlock]

I have NEVER died to a light player that didnt raw outplay me. Most timed I just cook them though. I should NOT be allowed to lose half my health to a flank spin around and still kill the light first. I think the only gun ive been successfully killed by an ambush on where I didnt miss my shots was lh1

[compact tundra]

I do the same, it ain't that bad

[noble saddle]

The only time lights kill me is if I'm dived by them

[compact tundra]

Turret/heal/shockwave
Cerberus
Jumppad
Defib
Pyro

[hazy hemlock]

On controller BTW I shouldn't be able to turn on CONTROLLER and still win when they hitting shots

[glacial mesa]

cause i like to use it to target groups of players who all stand within half an inch of one another and then take like half of all their health

[hazy hemlock]

This is my second time maining the class cuz im tired of how sbit light feels and I can safely say my feelings havent changed, tbis class is free as fuckn overpowered and anyone who disagrees is self exposing a skill issue

[hazy hemlock]

@noble saddle this my loadout btw

[noble saddle]

I feel like M11 light with Infuser is pretty easy to learn for a good heal beam medium player

[hazy hemlock]

Id suggest dropping Pyro its legit terrible

[noble saddle]

I learned that class pretty quick

[glacial mesa]

yeah light is becoming sort of out dated, especially cause it's hella hard to be a team player as a light class

[noble saddle]

I think it's fun to combo with revolver but it's definitely a weak gadget lol

The aura is high though

[hazy hemlock]

Ima v9s main light since season 2. I just am not playing light til it sees real buffs. Atm medium does almost everything you would want on light but better and because of more health its just not as harsh either

[glacial mesa]

the scanning pod thing for medium is pretty based as well, i used to run that instead of pyro

[hazy hemlock]

Bro got the cowboy loadout

[glacial mesa]

lol

[hazy hemlock]

Medium never shoudla gotten prox sens. They shoulda gotten tracking dart

[glacial mesa]

yeah but not the cowboy aim i can't hit for crap with the revolver

[hazy hemlock]

Just practice bro. Its not that bad

[glacial mesa]

yeah that's fair

my aim in game always get's jittery when my heart rate spikes

[noble saddle]

Gateway and Glitch are the reason to play light over medium

[hazy hemlock]

Dash on an almost 8 second CD due to weaponised incompetence is fucking insane btw

[eager wasp]

hurts as a dagger, it feels like shit

[hazy hemlock]

Deadass. Light has no value outside of that and even then its questionable cuz like why wouldn't you just run medium with replacements for those. In MMH one medium can have zipline and jumppad to make up for it and that medium with just Shockwave and jumppad now has more movement and burst movement than light ever had. Plus you disrupt their movement if they pushed you while also moving yourself its insane

[hexed rapids]

i disagree, h+ infuser and gateways are incredible for teamplay, and getting away with trophies is very very doable when it comes to revives. support light feels very strong, especially because light primaries are typically very lethal anyway so you lose almost nothing by supporting instead of acting solo imo

[hazy hemlock]

Yup this is why im a medium main til further notice. Light is back to pre season 6 of basically being. Throw pick unless your a glitch nade god

[noble saddle]

one of my favorite unranked loadouts

Demat, Hover Pad, Glitch Mine, Pyro Nade, Revolver

The gimmick of the build is being a strong duelist and all utility is meant to stack the deck in my favor in duels

Weakness is no utility outside of dueling lol

[glacial mesa]

while yeas the gateway and h+ is great, the lack of health dosen't make up for it

gadgets are only good if your alive to use them

[hazy hemlock]

Mf said the whole lobby will know pain

[noble saddle]

If you're playing M11 properly you shouldn't be feeling the low health pool lol. You kill people significantly faster than they kill you

[hazy hemlock]

Issue is medium primaries are also strong asl. And dash really isn't hard to track. I can do it on a 64 inch TV with aim assist off on controller. There is no excuse for mnk and aim assist players its just a skill issue.

[hexed rapids]

lights are very survivable with good positioning. so long as youre not trying to duel all the time and actually playing with your team instead of diving, its not a big deal.

[noble saddle]

M11 isn't even hard to play it's basically the fucking dagger except you don't need to line up a backstab

Just dash into 1m range, mag dump, get out

[glacial mesa]

if your not duleing as a light then i wouldn't play it

[hazy hemlock]

Medium can do the same thing. Everyone should be focused on getting good positioning really so saying one class with good positioning is an issue.

The biggest issue with player skill in this game is NOONE focuses on positioning

Its like the hero shooter rejects that never learned fundies tbh

[hazy hemlock]

Me, on medium slapping on famas or fcar and being unduelable for any other classes unless your a shak heavy

[hexed rapids]

imo dashing is best used for gaining advantage in position, like reaching cover or disengaging/ engaging on your own terms as opposed to purely reactive play like dodging in duels

[glacial mesa]

lol

[hazy hemlock]

And you can do the same on medium. But better atm.

[hazy hemlock]

Tell me im wrong😭

[glacial mesa]

your not wrong

[noble saddle]

I think not focusing on utility is also an issue lol

Most people don't think about how their gadgets create a gameplay loop

[hazy hemlock]

I want to be sadly

[glacial mesa]

yeah the classes are merging slowly...

[hazy hemlock]

Bro you keep speaking my language on GOD. On medium i havent had an issue with even winch cuz with shockwave, pad and defib j had an extra slot so I slapped on goo and now even winch isnt an issue unless hes got a teammate snatching me to. I toss goo at his feet Shockwave away and dip. Ggs shake my hand

[hazy hemlock]

Also how that util interacts with teammates. To many sheild delays are the ones going for steals. Like bro no let ME steal you keep that sheild up king

[hexed rapids]

i sort of agree, the gateway is a huge deal for team positioning and lights don't have to choose between movement and healing their team. jump pad and zip together are almost as good as a smart gateway, but the light stays more flexible in general when compared to a heal beam + pad + zip medium, or a fully dedicated movement medium

[hazy hemlock]

Medium has more flexibility atm. The only argument you have here specifically is portal. Pad+Shockwave gives you more distance than anything light can do. And this has been tested. Light only has support build going for it rn which is incredibly lame considering how flexible med is. Why does medium have more movement than the class thats supposed to be focused on movement. Like literally if your on light and NOT running portal, h+, glitch your just throwing lol

[hazy hemlock]

You also have multiple flavors of movement medium but not relevant here i think.

Light just feels like shit rn. Grappling is meh. Dash on 8 second CD is insane. Longest CD ive ever seen on a dash in an ability shooter.

[compact tundra]

So as a light movement main I will absolutely just call that shockwave jump pad doesn't really touch lights lights mobility. Like it puts on the same level as like a dash light with gateway but grapple sword just blows that out of the water

[hazy hemlock]

Movement class should not be relegated to support. Like it can BE support just shouldn't be its only playstyle. I should not be on medium and feel i have more movement than the alleged movement class

[hexed rapids]

im thinking more about team play and less about personal movement yes, and the gateway is currently the best option for it.
lights can position easily and consistently with dashes or grapple, manipulate cash boxes and their whole team with gates, deal good damage, heal faster with natural regen and heal allies faster with h+.
if you want to play support, i genuinely think light is better for it. if you want dueling, heavy or medium might be better picks.

i think HHL or even HLL can be very strong right now for objective play value alone. medium has good guns and a couple good gadgets but severely lacks in obj play except for maybe demat and shockwaves for moving/ plugging

[hazy hemlock]

Im talkin meta and team tactics lol on med this season im doing e erything id wanna do on light

[hazy hemlock]

I disagree on the aspect that this ignores how strong MMH is atm. Movement medium, support medium goes crazy. Plus you get a second defib

[hazy hemlock]

And yeah I only run things that can help my team overall we in agreeance there

Also I appreciate yall that come to this channel cuz we can just converse about this without resorting to insults like main channel

Yall the goats on god

[hazy hemlock]

I think HLL is lowkey a throw but HHL has some merit to it i will say

[hexed rapids]

id personally prefer an HML to HMM, i just think L support is crazy good for objectives and h+ is just better than heal beam imo (esp if one or both H in HHL has emitter to supplement)
i personally play movement medium as my preferred play style and its fun to be a striker and all but im def not a support at that point. much more focused on winning the fight outright rather than damage control

[compact tundra]

I mean kinda, I'd agree medium now has Great movement but jump pad has a decently long recharge and shockwave has a ~13s cooldown with 2 charges and forces you to give up heal beam while dash has 3 charges a 7.5s cooldown and you can run it with H+. Plus light has vanish bomb for facing Poke teams, glitch for double heavy teams, gateway for just so much, bore and Breach are kinda underrated stall tools imo, and sonar nade is probably the best scouting gadget in the game

[hazy hemlock]

I mean yeah but my points that the ONLY good light build is support light which is an issue.

[hexed rapids]

on HLL, one light gets more flexibility with gadgets at least ^^

[hazy hemlock]

Yes but again my point is this is fine because medium weapons are super strong plus more health. I lovethwrmal bore ita in my main loadout but atm not running auspport light is just BAD. I did point out that you NEED to run glitch h+ and portal on light

[hazy hemlock]

It does but then your giving up a spot that shoukd just be a medium or heavy cuz team fights. Also let's be fr whos running this willingly

[hexed rapids]

if medium has glitchnades or breach charges then id agree but HHL is def preferable to HLL or HML rn imo at least for coordinated teamplay

HMM i should def lab some more though... you have some good points

[hearty solstice]

whats the best sight on revolver?

[eager wasp]

whatever one you can consistently hit shots with

[hazy hemlock]

Lets not forget btw about the buff to data reshaper, also, glitch mines are still on the table as an option medium has

[eager wasp]

i personally use iron sights

[hexed rapids]

i love reshaper!! its kept me alive against heavies this patch as a glitch alternative for M

glitch trap is very good but its not as flexible as nades by a long shot

[sharp wasp]

same, i dont like any of the sights so i sorta quick scope between shots so i can aim with my crosshair
(like this)

[hazy hemlock]

Yeha not as flexible but you got 2 meds so smth cna be done with it yk? Just thinking team combos is all. Esp cuz I feel like not enough people consider the team aspect

[noble saddle]

Blocking a flank on your teammates on reaction with goo grenade as medium medic is just 😘👌

[shrewd field]

quick question, is the delay in between the shot and the damage dealt considered "normal"?

[sharp wasp]

delay? seems almost instant to me