💣┇weapons-gadgets

[shell sonnet]

still hanging onto the idea that dome should be countered by thowables, as in, they pass straight through

[compact tundra]

I think if the changes above are implemented, then actually that would hurt gas's use case. If not implemented then I wouldn't mind it but if we do buff fire in this way than making gas the anti dome counter with explode on impact would actually be better then letting fire take another gas usage

[shell sonnet]

yeah fair argument
i still think it should let all throwables pass

[unkempt moss]

I assume its just a bot. Report and ignore.

[chilly granite]

100% medium is not the class for someone who actaully wants to play support right now

h+ should be a spec good take

dash is op as hell and light doesn't "need" dash, but light is underpowered with any other spec

excuse you that's not true

If I wanted the game balanced around how I play then I'd want charge and slam nerfed lol, and I've never once argued for that

introducing new players to finals via cashout is a terrible idea, quickcash, point break and tdm are all mcuh more new player firendly

[compact tundra]

Cashout is the main gamemode tho, doesn't that say something

[serene glade]

I think it would have been fine but the breaking point was definitely people running and stalling with vaults. But I mean cashout is the finals

[chilly granite]

cashout has a really shitty meta

like the way people play it is anti-fun for themselves and enemies

stalling vaults is very often optimal and anti-fun/anti-climactic

[tardy latch]

cv

[chilly granite]

having to do math to work out what the best move is, is also just beyond horrible game design

[unkempt moss]

It does most of the math for you.

[chilly granite]

Like, I don't care, I can do math fast enough and it's mostly easy math (15% is terrible though, 10% would be mcuh easier math in the heat of a game)

but most people are coming hoem from work or school to play games, the last thing they want is to do math to work out how to play

[tardy latch]

g

[unkempt moss]

Can we get a dedicated spam channel for people just trying to get LFG/Voice privileges. Holy fuck.

[chilly granite]

you can't see from UI if you'll lose positon from teamwipe or for enemy teams

[unkempt moss]

Its pretty basic math isnt it?

[chilly granite]

see my previous comment

mostly you can do it vibes based but that can lead to loss via small misjudgemetns

[unkempt moss]

I think that part of the game mode is one of its best parts.

[chilly granite]

you're welcome to that opinon, and I'm not sying that the mode shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't be in the introductory mode for new players

becuase a LOT of people see math and go EWW MATH and run screaming

[unkempt moss]

I don't think it is. I tried to get someone to play recently and they weren't even allowed to touch cashout because of their level or something.

It locked me out of cashout.

[chilly granite]

Isn't world tour the introductory mode? ranked is lvevel locked

[unkempt moss]

It wasn't letting me play regular cashout. I wouldn't have brought them in to ranked brand new.

We had to play TDM and Quick Cash.

[chilly granite]

quick cash also has the issue of 3 teams being really toxic and anti-fun

2 teams lose for every 1 team winning means everyone feels disspoainted 66% of the time

[unkempt moss]

The nice things about cashout for new players is its a lot slower. We played TDM and they got demolished like 1-14 because they had no clue what was going on.

Its just them getting beamed by 5 people while the building collapses.

[chilly granite]

yeah tdm sucks for new players

the spawn mechanics on tdm are bad, and the maps are probably too small

[unkempt moss]

Quick Cash is third party simulator. Power Shift is fish in a barrel.

[chilly granite]

man all the gamemodes are kinda shit tbh

the gameplay is good, but the actualy modes are cringe af

[unkempt moss]

Cashout I can be okay losing the match while still explaining what's going on and why were doing it on the way to vault/cashout.

[chilly granite]

I miss bank it but bank it had some serious balance issues that weren't addressed while I played

[unkempt moss]

Then we get in to a fight and its okay if they die because I can revive.

[chilly granite]

and I stoppped playing presumably before they fixed bank it

idk why embark hates team vs team

[unkempt moss]

If a new players is playing with me they aren't doing any math or macro decisions. Its literally just follow me and shot shit while you feel it out.

[chilly granite]

third parties feel awful for players, and getting second place by small margin feels awful, and being an unsuccesfful third party feels awful

3v3v3v3 is fucking ass

[unkempt moss]

I guess that would make H2H the best beginner mode.

[chilly granite]

almost certainly true, althoguh h2h has the issue of being way too boring because maps are much too big for two teams

sweats are another issue, but I don't get many in my games, my sbmm score for h2h is probaly too low lol

[unkempt moss]

But its ruined by absolute sweat lords.

[chilly granite]

true for people introduced but what about all the people who have no finals friends?

like all the arc players

[unkempt moss]

They wont keep them because the games aren't even close to similar outside of having guns.

[chilly granite]

also hot take h2h would be better with objective gold and teamwipe loss and a 75k target

not h2h, final round in ranked (also h2h)

[chilly granite]

I don't think that's true, I think a small % would enjoy finals but won't becuas the new player experience/onboarding is ass

[unkempt moss]

Final Round just needs better spawns and its fixed. This is true for all of cashout though. Far too often is the losing team on a vault rewarded for death by beating the winning team to a cashout.

[chilly granite]

that might be true from the perspective of a ranked sweat, but for a spectator perspective watching final round in esports setting at grand major, shit is boring af

it's like two fights over a vault and two fights over a cashout and it's over, and there's no real tension except during those fights

[unkempt moss]

You'll never get me to care about someone that gets excited about esports.

Its bad for the game, and I will always admonish anyone suggesting we make changes for that.

[chilly granite]

I mean, beyond the joy of winning is final round as enojyable for you as the first/second round?

[unkempt moss]

Yes.

[muted condor]

It’s a lot of fun

[unkempt moss]

Especially if its a team that's gone through the two previous rounds against us.

[chilly granite]

let me put it differently, would you rather, 3v3 with first round ruleset or 3v3 with current final round ruleset and why

[muted condor]

Fuck 3v3

[chilly granite]

Imean for h2h or final round, just which ruleset do you think would be more enjoyable

[muted condor]

Oh you mean players

I thought you meant 3 teams

[chilly granite]

hahaha, yeah, players

[unkempt moss]

I reject the premise. The excitement of cashout is the tournament format. I dont play quick cash and I dont play h2h because each is half of the equation.

[chilly granite]

ok so gooking likes to roleplay being an esporter

have you heard of battlecup in dota gooking?

[unkempt moss]

Its the whole package of the game. Cash Out is the finals.

[thin birch]

What do u think abt goo gun sticking ppl, ppl in spawn point saying it's broken now

[unkempt moss]

Nope. I dont watch esports, not even for my favorite competitive genre.

[muted condor]

Cash out is the true finals game mode that it was built around and plays the best

[unkempt moss]

It probably feels unfair to new players that don't understand it. Its strong but if you removed it then you'd make even fewer googun players which is already niche.

[muted condor]

People in spawn point are stinky

[thin birch]

Tbh I've never had a problem with it. It's hard to hit because goo gun has bloom and is not 100% accurate. And i feel like just not going in a straight line counters it a bit

[unkempt moss]

I like the rule change for final round. It feels good to make it to a final round and having the macro switch up entirely.

[muted condor]

I do wish they would play more into the game show side of the game and have crazier events

[unkempt moss]

The net play being what it is makes goolocking anything but a heavy pretty difficult if they are doing anything but standing in one place.

[unkempt moss]

Doing side events for cash would be cool.

[muted condor]

Let a team bet their money on a kill or winning a specific cash out for more rewards

[thin birch]

True, heavy is the worse class for facingbgoo

[unkempt moss]

I really like the mode where different weapons get different money for kills and I think it should be a standard for ranked cashout.

[thin birch]

Especially since hitbox also larger

[chilly granite]

it's not esports

it's an event on the weekend that allows people to compete in their skill group for a lil trophy by their name (think ruby badge)

it's tournament format with 4 rounds

[muted condor]

That was great besides their horrible idea behind how valuable some weapons were

[unkempt moss]

I think that kills for cash mode is a very unique and interesting way to help with balancing.

MGL is dogshit but it being worth 5 ARN kills is awesome.

The numbers absolutely needed tweaking.

[fickle dome]

Can anyone rate my medium build Healing beam, akm, goo grenade, explode mine, defibrillator

[muted condor]

I would run dual blades way more if they game be a bonus for being a beat with them

[unkempt moss]

What are we rating in on? Effectiveness?

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/ben-and-jerrys-vanilla-ice-cream-ice-cream-vanilla-ben-and-jerrys-ice-cream-gif-10378410566141128290

[fickle dome]

Just if its good or not

[fickle dome]

Or maybe don't run dual blades and use an actual gun like a good person

[unkempt moss]

Its great but you have a spec for heavy with no movement

[muted condor]

Also makes weapons like the flamethrower and shak less annoying when running harder weapons

[fickle dome]

A spec? Sorry I don't know a lot of gaming slang what does spec mean

[muted condor]

Maybe I skin you alive in front of your family you troglodyte

[unkempt moss]

Heal gun is good if you have a heavy. But you can't move their fat asses anywhere quickly.

[fickle dome]

Any melee weapon expect for sledgehammer is no skill and should not be used

[muted condor]

That was probably one of the best game modes imo

[unkempt moss]

Based.

[fickle dome]

Oh ok thx might try and fit in zipline

[fickle dome]

This guy gets it

[muted condor]

Hammer does take the least amount of skill or effort of any melee. Straight monkey weapon

[unkempt moss]

100%. That's why I'm saying it should be a standard ruleset even for ranked. I think to make it more game show like they should have ways to earn more money for doing things that get the spectators going.

[muted condor]

Spear beats it now anyways

[unkempt moss]

Even things like the emote for cash thing feels very gameshow

[chilly granite]

elimited round 1 cashout with 13 kill, 10 elim streak hhhhh

[fickle dome]

Light smasher tho

[unkempt moss]

Focused on the wrong part of the game. Elims aren't the point of the mode

[muted condor]

Kill streaks should give progressively more money along with ending a streak

[unkempt moss]

And having a bounty system like that one mode for long streaks. That sounds awesome.

[chilly granite]

I promise I wasn't focusing on elims but gotta kill the enemy to try to do cashbox

[muted condor]

Having a 6 player streak is awesome because each kill is giving you loads of cash but now everyone wants to kill you because they will get a huge pay out for it

[unkempt moss]

Get us on the dev team. Holy chit

[chilly granite]

if you're playing light you can't really suicide steal if you have demat and turret mediums

[unkempt moss]

Yeah that's not your job.

[chilly granite]

thanks for confirming I was worried I was gonna be told I'm bad for sec there

[muted condor]

Just hold the H+ lil man and let the big boys do the steal

[chilly granite]

I did, that was our only successful cashout

[thin birch]

Actually it's specially YOUR job. YOU. Remember to suicide steal no matter what you play

[muted condor]

Heavy should be the one stealing unless they have mesh usually

[fickle dome]

Is it just me or has casual gotten so sweaty in the past 3-4 weeks

[muted condor]

That happens when player numbers are as low as this game’s

[unkempt moss]

What if you when you were holding a cashout any teamwipes you got gave you the cash they lose? Would that help third parties?

[chilly granite]

that woudl be god tier

[muted condor]

Something like that would be nice. Right now it feels like being the one to bank the cash fucks you over

[unkempt moss]

Then it kind of welcomes third parties because of the potential cash you could make

[chilly granite]

oh my god that shit was so toxic

i got killed by like, 1 tick pyro > winch > quickmelee

[muted condor]

Maybe also give the team that actually banks it a small amount of money

[unkempt moss]

Stay 12m away from the the juggernaut

[chilly granite]

playing matter

[unkempt moss]

I think it gives you a portion up front if you dunk it.

[muted condor]

My most successful games have been with team mates that go and hit the boxes for the 1k and tie breaker then run away and let the other people bank. It’s toxic af but is legitimately easy wins

[chilly granite]

When a Cash Box is deposited, 20% of its value is instantly awarded to the team, while the remaining 80% is stored in the Cashout Station

[unkempt moss]

Is this in ranked?

[muted condor]

Yeah, we just third partied every fight and would take the cash out with 3/4 time done and win every one

Only gets you to the final round but it doesn’t matter if you’re just ranking up and loss the last fight

[unkempt moss]

The double jeopard was a weird addition.

[muted condor]

Iv been fucked over by randoms not knowing about it

[chilly granite]

doubling was a problem

[muted condor]

They double bank at the end and knocked us out of first

[chilly granite]

the ui is ass

[unkempt moss]

Was griefing really that much of a problem?

[chilly granite]

I played like 5 cashouts in season 8 and it happened in every one of them

[muted condor]

If you know you’re the best team it was and is the best move

Don’t really think it was a problem because it was a super high risk high reward strategy

[unkempt moss]

I'm always the best team

[chilly granite]

it felt really toxic toplay against as a second place team who aren't strong enoguh to counter it in the chaos of 3v3v3v3

like, there were teams that did it who were weaker than my team in a 1v1, but in chaos, they did better

strictly needed, probably not, but it was sus as fuck

[unkempt moss]

I think i was griefed in once last season and they got demolished in the final round for letting us in.

[muted condor]

“We call that adapting to reach the finals”
John .C Finals

[chilly granite]

and I think it has an outsized affect on casusal players

it's super duper demotivating, so it's not an element of gameplay that you want to encourage

[unkempt moss]

CAN YOU REACH THE FINALS? ™

[chilly granite]

the idea of giving it a much, much bigger risk, makes casuals feel a lot better about losing to it

[unkempt moss]

Casuals deserve to lose to my incredible battle IQ

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/the-finals-dance-tobey-maguire-spiderman-gif-7517816247940725529

[chilly granite]

I'm so fucking bad at using flashes in cashout

[unkempt moss]

No one flashes in cashout bro

[muted condor]

Well yeah, you’re using flashes in cashout

[chilly granite]

I like my flashbangs, I don't care if they're not meta, but I'm also bad at using them in not tdm/point break

[sudden pewter]

I’d flash if I could. Alas, Embark fears naked Heavy

[chilly granite]

I get good value from my frags at lesat

[sudden pewter]

We don’t even have bare feet 😔

[unkempt moss]

Ive been trying to use them by throwing them on a steal so my teammate cant be seen

[chilly granite]

my teammates ignore my gateways and run away from my h+s

i should probably do frag/nulli/glitch

[unkempt moss]

Hasn't worked yet

[muted condor]

I ran into a triple medium team all running flashes once

[chilly granite]

flashes are way too weak tbh

[muted condor]

I swear to god I was going to crash tf out

[chilly granite]

they're too strong but the radius is too inconsistent

[unkempt moss]

Just pop flash for yourself

[chilly granite]

flash duration should be nerfed for sure

[muted condor]

Flashes will never get a change for this exact reason

[chilly granite]

but in a game which has dynamic destruction and so many props everywhere, it's quite difficult to make effecive use of flashes because there's so much random shit to block line of sight

[unkempt moss]

The destruction just makes flashes too inconsistent. There's always shit everywhere to block it.

Plus you can gooparry them if you know its coming.

[chilly granite]

they need to cut the max duration flash to like, 1/3rd and make it way way more consistent

[muted condor]

Fundamentally the flashes are not a compatible gadget with the game

[unkempt moss]

Throw it on the pile with sniper and grapple.

[muted condor]

And BFR 🗣️

[hexed tulip]

and winch

[unkempt moss]

Leave my beef alone.

[muted condor]

And defibs

[hexed tulip]

and everything except sledgehammer

[muted condor]

Fuck defibs

Btw did you know I fucking hate defibs?

[unkempt moss]

I had no idea

First im hearing of it

[muted condor]

Wow, well let me tell you about defibs

[chilly granite]

I just watched a breach drill flash just miss my teammate with 0 effort on his part

[unkempt moss]

God i cant wait for fighting games to be saved soon so I can stop playing this.

[muted condor]

Dead genre bro

[unkempt moss]

Averages better than the finals on steam. Ill take it.

[muted condor]

That’s a really low bar

[unkempt moss]

But the rest are dead unfortunately

[thin birch]

Play squad

[unkempt moss]

Nice thing is you only need one other person online near you to play.

[unkempt moss]

The clone wars mod does look awesome.

[chilly granite]

but yeah, flashes lieterally never work

[muted condor]

im waiting for SWBF3 to come out or 2 to het updates again

[unkempt moss]

I love the original trilogy, but Battlefront needs to just go all in on clonewars.

I also don't like the hero stuff. Im not sure if it's popular.

[chilly granite]

I tried so damn hard

1st place fed the last cashout to third place and I coulddn't teamwipe them fast enough

we woudl've won if one of my teammates coined early game so we didn't lose the 15% from teamwipe

[unkempt moss]

Support score looking a bit low, bud.

[chilly granite]

they refused to use my gateway, what am I meant to do?

[unkempt moss]

Aren't you using H+

[chilly granite]

no, gateflashfrag

[unkempt moss]

Yeeeeuck

[chilly granite]

I tried gateway last game and my teammates died every single time before I could heal them

the just run around like headless chickens

[unkempt moss]

Sonar, nully, H+

I average 4-5k support a round on light ez

[chilly granite]

we would've lost worse if I didn't have gate for myself lol

[unkempt moss]

Wrong mindset for cashout, champ

That means you were playing away from your team. Anyone can go in to cashout and farm kills.

[chilly granite]

I'm not, they're runnning away from me dude, I swear

[unkempt moss]

In cashout heavy is king. You gotta stay on them and play off of them.

[glad orchid]

Not enough assists smh wasnt team shooting :((

Jk btw

[chilly granite]

earlier match had double medium

[unkempt moss]

Play off of your demat medium if you have one.

[chilly granite]

this match I got smurfed on

lvl 30 acc in clan l2bfr oneshotting me wth rpg and lewis like 8 times

I have no idea how to play off demat so I'd appreciate tips

alright im running h+ this time

my heavy fell off the building and me and medium died for it

[unkempt moss]

A demat medium and your heavy are going to be your main playmakers. Wait for their entry and secure kills.

Problem with light is you cant play ahead of your team in cashout.

[chilly granite]

they entered with both sides of the building, fought two different teams, and boht died immeidately

[unkempt moss]

Don't be afraid to tell your medium to play off of your heavy and to slow down.

[chilly granite]

the problem is more my heavy

[unkempt moss]

Youre also just going to get duds for teammates sometimes. That's the nature of match making.

If you say to play off of the heavy hopefully it makes him lock in a bit because the pressure is on him then.

With demat at that level they only really know how to play for drop steals. So position yourself to cover steals and nullify an attacker.

[chilly granite]

we squeaked in basically on luck

[unkempt moss]

That's a win.

[chilly granite]

that's only round 2

[unkempt moss]

Each round counts as a win

[chilly granite]

I still haven't used h+ outside of the first fight, becuase every other fight my heavy has either died like a moron or I've been nuked by some bullshit

[unkempt moss]

What weapon is he using

[chilly granite]

shak

I had h+ ready and he still died on the first vault instantly getting beamed by entire enemy team

[unkempt moss]

H+ isnt used mid firefight, but more mid combat. Does that make sense?

It can be if they are using like mini or flame. But for shak you want to lay damage down and secure kills he cant.

[chilly granite]

i mean, there wasn't a fight

[unkempt moss]

Are you playing ranked?

[chilly granite]

yeah

[unkempt moss]

Whats their ranks?

[chilly granite]

he was just out of position so got deleted, there was nothing i could do

like, silver 5, I've been on a killer losing streak and it's getting worse hahah

[unkempt moss]

Makes sense. Alright, new plan. Thats low enough for you to be the playmaker.

[chilly granite]

btw my flashes were the only reason we won round 1, I flashed entire enemy team on last cashout

got 2nd round 1 but yeah

[unkempt moss]

Sonar, nullifier, and H+ if you have a heavy. But I need you to kind of hang out with your team more. Dont run gateway, just stay with the team. Play your life, and just nuke things down for them. You should be able to just musclefuck your way to gold.

[chilly granite]

got first

[chilly granite]

that's basically what I did the first and third games and it almost worked

somewhat what I did this game and it somewhat worked, althugh heavy and medium listening to me when I said contest last vault was helpful

we should have easy first cuz I have matter against LLM team

not vault, last cashout, they wanted to try toget a vault but no time

[unkempt moss]

They won't have a clue about macro down there so that makes sense

[chilly granite]

I just killed both lights with one matter shot hahaha

heavy who tbagged in 2nd round got elim'd by me hahaha, we stole his cashout and he lost

[unkempt moss]

That's why we play cashout bud.

[chilly granite]

man this m11 light just hipfired me and hit like 7 headshots

[unkempt moss]

Yeah its good at that.

[chilly granite]

I just frag naded the enemy who was carrying the cashbox perfectly, tapped him wiht matter, then took the vault and dunked it

while the medium model missed me cuz of dahs haha

[unkempt moss]

Nice.

[chilly granite]

we got second

I panic'd and missed like 10 matter shots on the light in a 1v1

oh well, at least it's +rs, even if I did panic prerty bad there

I'm gonna take null/frag/flash

[unkempt moss]

If youre in the points its a win.

[chilly granite]

even when I was mid gold last season they had no clue about macro

[unkempt moss]

Its hard to learn when you dont need it until the upper ranks.

[chilly granite]

ehhh there's a lot of games that are won and lost on macro even in the pits

[unkempt moss]

Right, but they dont understand why they are winning or losing because most of their games dont force them to learn it.

[chilly granite]

yeah

I managed to force a double in our favour

and I solo wiped two teams

used nulliifer to deny steal

[unkempt moss]

You'll be ruby in no time. People love a nuclear light on their team.

[chilly granite]

to be fair, my other light is doing great too

v easy round 1

enemy lh1 player is cheating lmao

the killcams are hilarious

3rd place, +200, it could be worse

[prime shore]

What loadouts are solid on heavy rn? Is it still mostly C4 + RPG + Dome

And yall think I should focus on getting better w mesh shield? I can winch like a mf but Im trying to fill a more support heavy role

[chilly granite]

yesyes

googun is best but mesh good too

[unkempt moss]

Mesh or winch depending on what weapon you're using.

[chilly granite]

the cb is actaully gameruining if you're lll

-59 but I would've had +200 if I didn't fuck up my nullifier reload lol

gadget reloads are really fucking rude

just requiring players to know which gadgets auto replenish and which don't is dumb

I clutched the fuck up

pink and orange were 1/2 with pink doubled (i made the call and brough the vault)

all the teams fighting on the point

I finsihed off orange and pink teams and then stole

[chilly granite]

lovely

I litearlly solo stole cashout, killed the enemy team +2 revives

but the last coin killed me and stole back

alright im filling heavy pray for me

at least even when I go on a crazy losing streak I'm trying my hardest lol, I'm just sucking

he's griefing his team this one too, not my team thankfully

also rpg is so fucking OP

one death was me being greedy and chasing a kill, but the other was just suicide to def point

[chilly granite]

wcyd the team always runs in and feeds

25-10 and I went 3-5 in the last round, so 22-5 in round 1/2

oh shit I never used my spec

"heavies not op" never uses spec, goes 22-5

[unkempt moss]

Brother you spam tdm matches. Of course your going to get at least a passable amount of kills in cashout.

Relax on the OP flinging

[chilly granite]

RPG is absolutely 100% op and I will die on that hill

[unkempt moss]

Its not.

Its just P

[chilly granite]

tbh I feel like a lot of problems come from light not having enouhg hp, so stuff that's mid against heavy/medium ends up op against light

rpg is basically a free kill against a light, but doesn't do that much to a medium or heavy

(explosives in general)

[abstract kestrel]

It's a great finisher. Great way to deal with a team bunkering around a health ball. Not super powerful though.

The cooldown is 3 eternities, you only get 1 per fight most of the time

[chilly granite]

1 free dead light sonuds amazing to me

[abstract kestrel]

It's not free. Good lights wont get too close to a heavy until they've heard it go off, and will just dodge that shit if you try it from too far away.

Also it's only most of their health, not all of it, even if you get a direct.

[chilly granite]

2 pellets lewis and 1 shot deag, bfr etc

having a gadget that can zone the light and make the fight a 3v2 until used is crazy op

[unkempt moss]

Just dash bro

[serene glade]

i hit a light in the face with a red barrel and they took 22 damage, theres a hidden mechanic for lights called plot armor that just has them not die sometimes

[abstract kestrel]

lol

[abstract kestrel]

🙉

[chilly granite]

I'm not saying this becasue I die to it, I'm saying it because when I play heavy I kill a bunch of lights wiht it and it's super duper easy peasy

[abstract kestrel]

you're farming noobs and using this anecdotal evidence as proof that this weapon is op?

[chilly granite]

I withhold my opinion on stuff unless I've tried it

yes, noobs deserve to not be oneshot

if you can't have light not be oneshot with current powerlevel delete dash first 🙂

[abstract kestrel]

You're entitled to your wrong opinion I guess.

[chilly granite]

are oyu a dead game enjoyer?

[abstract kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-giga-chad-chad-gif-23788137

[chilly granite]

even a small game depends on a healthy playerbase of casuals

[abstract kestrel]

My two most played games are Mordhau and Elite Dangerous

THere are no casuals there, it's still fun.

[chilly granite]

those are firmly small and not dead but ok

elite dangerous absolutely has casuals

[abstract kestrel]

nuh uh

[chilly granite]

mordhau I'll conceed, there are no casuals in mordhau

[abstract kestrel]

If mordhau isn't dead then the only way a game actually dies is if servers get shut down bc theres like 15 players online in any given region at a timee

FInals isn't gonna go down to sub 15 players because casuals cant dodge a fucking rpg

[chilly granite]

it's been ages since i've played mordhau I didn't realize it was that bad

[unkempt moss]

That's kinda his thing

[chilly granite]

but afaik theres no dedicated servers for finals so if it stops making a profit, embark may well kill it

if that was my standard I'd thikn bow is op

[frail bison]

Well of course, heavys main job is to do massive amounts of damage

Thats why the bfr is the best poke weapon in the game

[abstract kestrel]

its actually repeater imo

[frail bison]

They go hand in hand

It depends on whos behind the gun really

[abstract kestrel]

thats everything in the game

[frail bison]

Statistically the repeater is better though

[abstract kestrel]

You can just say true yknow

[frail bison]

no

I like both guns instead of arguing im just going to like both sides

https://tenor.com/view/timbaland-kewcheeeman-gif-21658755 NOOOO

[abstract kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/petty-gif-16451437479632471459

[frail bison]

bfr more fun tho u cant lie

[abstract kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/j-jonah-jameson-embed-fail-spider-man-spider-man-2-knee-slapper-gif-6077904750872772976

[chilly granite]

tjeyre both boring and for wimps

real men use deags

[abstract kestrel]

op you can kill a light in 2 shots

[frail bison]

Real men use sa + mesh

[abstract kestrel]

Real meta

[frail bison]

How mfs were describing sa + winch in season 8:

[chilly granite]

nobody played it in tdm so I don't care about the sa

tbh I feel like the winch nerfs were kinda too much, but also too little? they didn't nerf the annoying things about winch (the hitbox being huge af and dragging around walls)

[frail bison]

Winch is still very good

mesh just overshadows it now since it finally directly counters it

[frail bison]

sa isnt good in tdm its only good in cashou modes and point break and such

tdm doesnt prove skill with a weapon, it just proves u can sit on high ground and shoot people who arent paying attention

Thats why majority of the tdm players that are top 50 are usually bronze or silver

[chilly granite]

there's like 3 tdm mains who actually do that most of them are fighting on ground level

[frail bison]

still doesnr prove skill tbh it kinda just proves ur mechanical skill

[chilly granite]

I mean, my point is that most tdm mains don't tdm main becuase they want to see victory screen, they tdm main becuase they want to deathmatch, shoot people on low cooldown, and roofsitting isn't conducive to low cooldown shooting because you're relying on the enemy to walk by afk

[frail bison]

fair enough

[chilly granite]

and I was gold last season I'm only silver right now because I tilted and lost 10 games in a row with the bow night before buff

dont personally attakc me for being a top 50 tdmer

I need to press charge more

I just shot a guy like 4 times and then oneshot me with chargen slam

I pressed charge and complete missed

[unkempt moss]

What about a top 45 tdmer

[chilly granite]

I've been swapping between 45 and 46 so maybe

I dind't play much tdm today so maybe you can flame the top 45s 🙂

[unkempt moss]

I only personally attack the top 47s

[chilly granite]

oof

[unkempt moss]

Get him!

[chilly granite]

taking bets on if I can do any damage with charge and slam this match

[chilly granite]

I just

slide melee'd a light twice
instead of pressing spec

[unkempt moss]

Is that a TDM thing?

[chilly granite]

no it's a light thing

you don't have charge and slam so it's normla to slide melee when you out of bullets and reload will take too long

I never charge and slammed anyone

[unkempt moss]

me and googs have fans officially

[chilly granite]

I got winch clawed by a heavy and then missed my cns on him

how do you miss charge and slam after he brings me into range with winch

so that's another round with 0 damage done via charge and slam and I'm really trying here

[unkempt moss]

Almost ready to learn goo?

[chilly granite]

I GOT MY FIRST CHARGE ELIMINATION IN A CASHOUT

at lesat that I remeber lol

whoever defends winch deserves a punch in the face

that shit is supreme bullshit

I did a nice clutch with charge and slam too

easy +7k mmr total anyway

I can feel my reaction slowing down from ebing awake so long so I should probablly call it

Btw does the matter suck in cash out right now? It felt way worse than tdm but idk if that's just because I'm pretty sick/tired and wasn't aiming good from it

Last season in cash out matter was my main weapon and I hit 24000 and ran out of time I was climbing pretty fast

I probably was just aiming badly cuz I'm tired

[unkempt moss]

We all have off days, bud.

[unkempt moss]

The matter may be sucking in cashout for you because its a lot larger of a map. They aren't locked in a small map with you.

[chilly granite]

I mean like, matter cash out last season felt good, matter tdm felt good, matter tdm this season feel same, matter these games felt bad

I did have a lot of kyoto matches tbh, but I think my aim wasn't helping

And monoco duck and cover idk if that's a "bad map for matter" but it's a bad map for me lmao

[unkempt moss]

I never do well on Monaco. Worst map in the game imo

[chilly granite]

for casohut it's probably my least favourite, maybe skyway

I like bernal in cashout but hate it in tdm

[unkempt moss]

MID SEASON PATCH INCOMING!

[vale bear]

somone waNA PLAY THE FINALS

[unkempt moss]

I hate that game

[cosmic oriole]

guys. i have an idea for a new meta . its called the whimsical heavy meta. you go into a casual game, and goof off with your teammates by emoting around the cashout. try to get other teams to join and have fun! spread positivity outside of the meatspace. best done with irl friends or vc ing with like-minded jolly heavies. mediums and lights can try too. thoughts?

[stoic garden]

i agree

[wraith orchid]

huge if true, the winrate is gonna go through the roof

[heavy tendon]

Only way around a CL40 is to use an APS or just have the high ground

I don’t like how you can just shoot at their feet

[open surge]

Anyone wanna go back to the old repeater? Plz give us the old ads time back you can do with the damage what you want Move it back to 84 damage for all I care. 😭

[unkempt moss]

Yeah they completely gutted it. Its basically unusable now

[open surge]

Wanna start a petition?

[unkempt moss]

Yes

[open surge]

My fellow repeater lovers, rise and sign this official request to revert the repeater back. https://c.org/dwRsVm6Myb

[open surge]

Will you be my signee of honor?

[open surge]

be the first to sign?

[wraith orchid]

Looool, really? Repeater weak? It just got a little clunkier, it's still an S tier weapon

[open surge]

Imho, the 84 damage with 0.2 seconds was way better

[shell sonnet]

not even that

if they bunny hop they take half the self damage
and can iirc, survive up to 3 shots

hitting the enemy directly is an active detriment because it moves the explosion closer
skill shots are punished, and spamming is rewarded

not saying its like broken
just this aspect of it is stupid

[atomic falcon]

MGL has super niche uses

imo

[shell sonnet]

it does
but its really fun imo

love randomly suprising someone around a corner after theyve run away, or are hiding thinking theyre safe

i wonder how much of a part it plays, that its massively underused, nobody knows what it can do, or how to fight it

[atomic falcon]

bro every time i use it they run before it detonates

[shell sonnet]

like, ofc they know it bounces, but who besides the users can really expect how far it can be bounced into a room

[shell sonnet]

odd

ofc some do that to me too, but i feel like a decent chunk of my enemies try to tanke it before theyre blown to smitherines

[atomic falcon]

Tbf its usually lights

[shell sonnet]

yeah, they just do that

can still make it for it a little sometimes

if you bounce shots in front of their feet so they connect near them, but shoot slightly to the left/right of them, you might be able to confuse and stress them

[atomic falcon]

Their movement is sooo annoying

thx for advice tho

[shell sonnet]

can be

i often just play around corners
either im getting me free spam damage, or they run and ive lost nothing
if they do engage
shoot the corner as they run through the door/near the corner for instant explosion

[shell sonnet]

glady

if you need some, hit me up

you might also find shooting the ceiling helpful

it comes crashing down real quick, harder to avoid
maybe a bit harder to aim, since you arent looking at them, but works

especially in point blank (though you do take self damage)
if its your only option, you may survive a light by shelling them twice this way

[atomic falcon]

im used to the breach and enter playstyle w a shaq so i like direct pressure mgl seems like it would help

[shell sonnet]

i usually run charge n slam for self defence + making sightlines

rpg for finishers (would also help your light problem)

and c4+mines near entrances

[atomic falcon]

so its just measuring bounces?

[shell sonnet]

wdym?

[atomic falcon]

The mgl?

[shell sonnet]

im not sure what you mean

like, yes mgl bounces, but what do you mean by measuring?

[atomic falcon]

calculating detonation time, bouncing off of angles, etc

[shell sonnet]

you almost never calculate detonation time
you have to be like, shoot straight up for that to be of concern, and at that point, you dont do anything besides spam with how far it travles
99,99% of the time, its only ever the 2nd impact explosion

[atomic falcon]

oh ok then!

[shell sonnet]

so yeah, fighting indoors, especially near walls is really good

hope you like geometry

if you can get it down, spamming into a room while they cant even see you can do hella work

gonna do something rq

[earnest bramble]

What is the best light combo to run in quick cash

???

[serene glade]

The best light combo in quick cash is to run whatever you feel like

[shell sonnet]

this is something i like to do

with practise and intuition, you can land a nade pretty much anywhere in these attics (and this is one of the bigger ones too)

only option they have is to waste goo for cover (destroyed in a few seconds), run away, try to tank it, or fight you, which you can then punish with a stacked trap on the floor below the ladder

[chilly granite]

Heavies disgust me 💔

Tbh I think embark should either commit to chaos and have more one shots with short respawns or make light actually have some HP

[shell sonnet]

oh come on
at least i play mgl 🥲

[chilly granite]

Mgl heavies are the worst hahaha

Mgl, bfr worst, best heavies are deagle players hahaha

Tbh I think mgl probably isn't too bad in cash out? It's a problem when it's massed because you can just make an entire zone toxic

[shell sonnet]

massed?

[chilly granite]

I've only fought mgl players in tdm or point break and generally only multiple at a time

[shell sonnet]

anything is stupid stacked

[chilly granite]

1 mgl heavy inconsequential, 3+ a huge problem

[chilly granite]

Ehh idk if I'm super afraid of stacked deagles, Lewis, akms, m11

There's some weapon concepts that have nasty scaling, mgl and sniper are the worst

Minigun too

[indigo nexus]

I've seen massed MGL work well in point break, however only because nobody bothered to counterpick I think :p

[wraith orchid]

what about spear?

[chilly granite]

Idek what the counter pick for light vs mgl is even meant to be

[indigo nexus]

In that scenario light probably didn't have one, but you can swap to another class. That's also counterpicking

[chilly granite]

I worry for spear users like you worry for an uncle with dementia

[wraith orchid]

well...Hello. I love torturing myself 🙂

[chilly granite]

I mean, I think that is a problem, there should be recourse for every class in every situation, it doesn't have to be highly effective but having to entirely change your kit just to counter one strategy sucks

Having to swap spec, weapon or gadget, even two of them, to counter an enemy strategy is fair, but having to change weapon, spec and gadget to counter is too much imho

Also I think not being able to swap to reserves in ranked is a bad take caused by little baby whiners

There's so many fun strategies that can be done, and missing out on the back and forth of mind games/trying different strategies and countering them with the resources you have available is sad

[indigo nexus]

True enough, nerf MGL

[chilly granite]

I don't even think it needs a nerf, I think light just needs better counterplay for it

[indigo nexus]

Light is generally fine against it, it's only a problem in that scenario due to the point break safezone

as you can stand in it and shoot out without requiring line of sight even

[chilly granite]

Ehh, even without the safe zone massed mgls can cover each other on cqb because explosions don't hurt allies

I've seen it in tdm, 3 mgls with a healing ball and dome shield

Once you have 3+ mgls lights die so quickly and you can just fuck an entire portion of a map with nades

[indigo nexus]

Yeah, but every weapon is capable of this

However in this instance they would not have been able to make the objective virtually untouchable if only their shots could be diverted to actual threats to them

[chilly granite]

I mean, stacked heavies are op in general in tdm, because stacked healing balls and dome shields make the objective (their head) very very hard to attack

[wraith orchid]

a single glitch grenade:

[chilly granite]

Good stacked heavies won't actually be cuddled that deep together, they spread out a bit and cover each other

You do see some who do sit literally on top of each other though, and glitch grenade does indeed ruin their day

It doesn't take long to get to a teammates heal ball and antoher teammate can throw a dome to cover the walk. Barricades are popular too.

Stacked heavies ruining tdms is what made me learn to love glitch grenade hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Is the heavy in the room with us right now?

[muted condor]

Stacking heavies? Buddy you gonna be playing with double lights 😂

We’re finals players of course we don’t have effective team comps

[unkempt moss]

With the quality of light players in this game, triple heavy is a blessing.

[chilly granite]

hahaha

yeah my aim was cooked last night, I'm using deagles rn and even though my aim with them is super duper rusty, it's signficnalty better than what I was doing last night

I feel like the deagles have a huge amount of bloom even shooting like, 75% max rate of fire

do other weapons have dispersion when ads strafing? @indigo nexus

[indigo nexus]

aside from ones like KS-23 and shotguns, no

[chilly granite]

it feels kinda unfair when I shoot the deags to have dispersion while ads'd, I'd take worse recoil for less dispersion, espeically cuz there are shot I know missed becuase of dispersion. They might be the minority, but it's a truely ass feeling

and dispersion blaancing a weapon that is intended for mid-long range headshots also feels icky

[unkempt moss]

Thats why the general consensus for the deagles is, while they are effective, they feel like shit to shoot

[unkempt moss]

Lore accurate spear.

[shell sonnet]

nerf dagger

[wraith orchid]

Lool, what is he doing

[thin birch]

If it was any other weapon the heavy would've been dead long ago what did dagger do 😭

[thin birch]

Spear things

[unkempt moss]

Trying to avoid backstab

I know because that how I be moving when I play spear.

[wintry trout]

Whats your avorite weapon

[shell sonnet]

/sarcasm

sorry if that was a double ping, wifi is fucky

but yeah, spear basically stunning you for trying to use its main feature sucks

im hoping we get the single sweep heaven or else m2 soon

i hope that some season, theyre just gonna drop like 3-5 reworks all at once for different items

[unkempt moss]

Big mid-season patch is coming.

[unkempt moss]

Flamethrower

What about you bud

[shell sonnet]

eeeeeh

earliest i see it, is potentially s10, since they mentioned specials maybe coming by then

but i like to remain cautiously pessimistic

[unkempt moss]

I have full expectations that they will do absolutely nothing with the mid-season patch.

I would love to be stupendously wrong though.

[heady vessel]

Hey anyone got a good light build with the x95

[indigo nexus]

V9S or XP-54

[heady vessel]

9S

[unkempt moss]

Gateway, H+, Goo

[wraith orchid]

yea, but there's more productive ways to do that...Plus that looks ridiculous

[unkempt moss]

Says the diamond spear player.

That's the average spear player right there.

I know all the super serious spear players like the spin for whatever reason, but its basically just a new player self detonate.

[muted condor]

None spear players can’t comprehend the peak that is spin

[unkempt moss]

I will say you guys bamboozled me in to thinking the cancel was difficult to do.

[muted condor]

It’s not hard now

It was way more finicky and kinda shit before

[unkempt moss]

Yeahhh but you guys made it sound like you were having to do some like just frame DMC nonsense.

[toxic flame]

riot sheild users man

[heavy tendon]

Prime nullifier target.

[tidal urchin]

Do something with the fcar.. my god can prob kill someone faster with a mele.. your servers already run like complete dog shit. Bullets may register may not. who knows. but the fcar is shooting marshmallows at this point

[drowsy trout]

it surpasses the shield?

[heavy tendon]

No. But you can probably dash to the side of them or get behind them to get off a quick nullifier shot. I usually vanish and try to sneak around them

[unkempt moss]

Feedback posting in wepsNgadg is crazy. Embark hasn't been in this channel for centuries.

[spring sun]

Anyone new to the game ??

[elder violet]

Hey I took huge break from the game and I come back to a medium with unlimited durability to block bullets???? That is unacceptable as a heavy their is no practical counter other than just hope i can land a mine or a Pyro grenade.

[chilly granite]

man my lsat game me and heavy tried our best but our meidum was a demat cerb medium who insisted on droppping box and trying to steal it himself without clearing the enemy

shou'dve just let him feed and played 2v3 rather than trying to help him tbh

but +77 I don't care

I'm pretty sure my dualblades just solo'd the enemy team hoooleee

I fell of the roof, I was a lil late to the fight but I did save his life wiht heals so I helped

oh we're seed 1, no wonder the game feels easy

[humble sparrow]

The p90 skin with the extended barrel has ER8 as a logo. Is er8 a alfa acta thing?

[chilly granite]

@unkempt moss can confirm it was a skill issue, matter feels 10/10 tongiht

1 heavy two throwing knives can I carry

[tardy mountain]

i love lues gun

[chilly granite]

heavy main spelling

OH FUCK

I SHOULD SLAM THE SWORD LIGHTS

I reaally suck at using my spec on heavy

[chilly granite]

hhhh, I was 400rs from gold and I got two lvl 20 teammates

it was carriiable if I played better, but still hard as fuck

now that's working hard for a w

I was body blocking to protect him on the cashout steal, we only got 1 cashout the whole game lmao

if I hadn't coined both my deaths, we would've lost on the -15%

won round two, but sooo barely

we got 2nd but we should've got 1st, my teammate took cashbox to the wrong cashout

[chilly granite]

I'm having a hard time winning convincingly enough that I'm acutally gaining rs, althoguh I'm at least breaking even lol

triple light teams are really hard

playing heavy with two lights is also really hard

[eager wasp]

the trick is to not soloq ever

[worn ice]

i like flame thrower

[unkempt moss]

Good.

[worn ice]

i goo alot too.

[nimble willow]

Is the NVG ever gunna be back?

[unkempt moss]

Night vision?

[nimble willow]

The nvgs for the light build.

[unkempt moss]

Night vision?

Night vision was on medium I think.

And heavy?

[nimble willow]

Nah it’s on lights. Check equipments tab

[unkempt moss]

Yeah I dont seen no night vision

[nimble willow]

You’ll probably only see it when you’re in the lobby and you go to the equipment part. It’s like at the very bottom

[unkempt moss]

I looked it up. Night vision was only on medium and heavies it says on the wiki

[nimble willow]

Thermal vision is what it’s called**

[unkempt moss]

Oh.

[muted condor]

There was night vision way back in the test servers from when they had a different plan for the game

[sudden pewter]

Imagine if Embark stuck with it and gave us night maps with shit visibility

[unkempt moss]

They saved that for their good game.

[muted condor]

Except the only way to get visibility is to break the game and your graphic settings like a dork

[undone kiln]

Add a vortex mine for mediums, need more fun gadgets brochachos, rarely see mines in Medium builds

[heavy tendon]

I wish I could like mines but defib, jump pad and goo are too useful

[serene glade]

They should add fun shit to the game

[unkempt moss]

Youre going to make Catter mad.

[undone kiln]

By all means, jump pad and goo is too useful in ranked or WT. i only use mines and other gadgets to fuck around in casual modes

Pretty fun

Especially i use heavy, put pyro and explosive mines behind a door in monaco and see the L player dashes in being melted

[sudden pewter]

There’s nothing I could do to him. Brain already ironed and wrinkle free.

Only what I want is best for the game!!!

And daddy wants bare feet. The dawgs must be set loose.

https://tenor.com/view/bear-sniffing-gif-22010778

[undone kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/jimmy-butler-jimmy-butler-jimmy-butler-meme-butler-paper-gif-14735317248936290425

[sudden pewter]

Fool. Knave even.

[undone kiln]

Oh shit didnt have this unlocked in this channel

[unkempt moss]

The monkey paw is the bare feet come with the caveman cosmetics they release with the spear throw.

[sudden pewter]

You have no power here. Such things are reserved for your betters. The reds and greens

[sudden pewter]

I will chimp out

[undone kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/i-guess-bro-i-guess-bro-bro-what-whatever-you-say-gif-16572066316579867256

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/wawa-emdeb-fail-failure-cat-gif-16703817715131368982

[unkempt moss]

Trying again is wild

[undone kiln]

Having free will is great

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009830578545246213/1381985482132688948/1749561411772.gif

[undone kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/jebaited-low-quality-bait-wavy-man-gif-26402013

[unkempt moss]

Trying again is wild

[heavy tendon]

Idk even in casual modes. Unless I do something like set up mines above a cashout and drop it on them they are kinda meh. They aren’t getting results half of the time IMO. Either they get missed, reshaped or if someone does step on them you aren’t close enough to capitalise on it

[undone kiln]

True, buts its more fun and satisfactory than a wall of white shit, and zooming across map with a jumpad

[vernal cove]

yesterday in ranked i saw a medium playing cl with gas mine gas nade and smoke

was pretty interesting combo

[near scroll]

the war crime loadout

[sharp kite]

So uhhhh. We all agree winch needs to be deleted?

[humble sparrow]

Who is the sponser of the Medium-Build Bundle? it says ER8 Armaments, is that Alfa Acta?

[serene glade]

[hardy dust]

Yea

[stoic garden]

idk, it's kinda lame

[fiery thunder]

I love how all your responses have been from Light Mains. 110% Class bias over here

[wide onyx]

No.

Most interesting spec in the game because of cashout manipulation

[serene glade]

I'm assuming it's mainly a server issue, but they should remove the lingering/return hitbox. Other than that it's whatever

[muted condor]

It’s pretty good now

It being blocked by shields means it’s not a 100% pick rate in cashout now

[serene glade]

I'd like to see it pull the cashbox with a bit more force if anything

[muted condor]

That’s what grav cube is for

[serene glade]

Guess that's what anti grav is for

[muted condor]

Heavy minds think alike

https://tenor.com/view/ryu-cyclops-street-fighter-x-men-marvel-gif-18435420932087275083

[serene glade]

I might give winch anti grav a shot to use for a bit. Been mainly swapping between sniper light and mgl so need something fresh to give a go

[muted condor]

You can get crazy steals with it

No one expects you to steal it by ripping it out of the roof

[serene glade]

Yeah, I also think moving the cash out wherever on defense is insane. It's why I loved the old jump pad interactions with the cashout. Such a stupid thing to remove

[rough beacon]

Who does this guy think he is 😂

[rough beacon]

I play light and I know that it’s very necessary for the game and btw I’ve beaten plenty of heavies that winch me in. The only problem with it is the skill gap because sometimes my heavy never hits any winch and after he misses he does but the other team hits every one and moves cashout like a normal person

[sharp kite]

well yea its kinda unfair when i get winched, stunned for eternity and able to shoot like 3 bullets with m11 before the heavy with shak gets free headshots cus i cant dash

[serene glade]

How many times do you have to get winched before you start thinking maybe it's your fault for being out of position?

[compact tundra]

Ok to be a little fair to being winch sun locked. I was fighting a tripe heat team in head to head yesterday that triple stacked winch claw and they'd all winch me in intervals to keep me stun locked. I was flamethrower heavy so that is my position

[serene glade]

I got double winched the other day and died, but I feel like other than the lingering returning hitbox it's just my fault for putting myself in the situation of getting winched. Like if I know they have it for example I'm not gonna use a CnS unless I see they used it. The people that complain about it constantly are the same people who don't ever change any way they play. They just keep running into it head on and then blame the game for it

[muted condor]

Full health light can always escape if they don’t get caught in the open

[unkempt moss]

Only way to fix this is to allow reserve swapping mid match. I usually try to pay attention to the teams in the second round to see if I need to switch from reserves.

I just saw you said head to head. But either way, playing flamethrower thats just somethinh that can happen.

[compact tundra]

I honestly hate that ranked doesn't have reserve swapping, hell I'd even take making it cost a coin even on wipes so your coin advantage actually means something.i just don't get the point in having a reserve when we're only allowed to use it twice and don't even know their kit before we swap

[compact tundra]

Yea it was casual head to head but I still agree

The thing that kinda made me think was I was playing with one of my lower skill friends last night and when we were in that match he was asking what to do and I said mesh shield and dome block winch and he asked is there any indicator I should be looking for and I had to tell him no, there is no indicator or tell

Really just kinda reinforces the idea to me that winch should have a wind up

[unkempt moss]

Ive never understood it. Counter picking could be a problem but no reserve swapping just reinforces stale metas because you have to pick the most efficient kit possible or risk exactly what you had happen.

Reducing the number of reserves could help but spending coins is a good idea. Defib has made coins almost useless a lot of the time anyway.

[boreal laurel]

I think it should never have been added into the game and that it very much needs to go. It’s just an instant-win button at this point—not to mention that it discriminates against short-range weapons, which I prefer to play anyway

[muted condor]

Reserved not being useable in ranked make weapons like the mini gun and melee horrible picks because you can’t change anything if some happened to counter you

[unkempt moss]

I think it makes ranked less competitive to not allow reserves in some fashion.

[serene glade]

I wanna run winch now because it apparently discriminates wtf. Winch can't stop winning

[muted condor]

Makes boring weapons the only viable picks

[compact tundra]

The thing for me is it also stops off meta utility picks. Like I'd love to run M11 light or ARN light and keep a sword In my reserve so if we need to plug a vault fast or sprint to get revives to take a cashbox i could swap to sword for the movement. I think a lot of non viable weapons would see utility use if they could be swapped to mid round. Maybe a team is camping a raised platform and is holding it very effectively. Ks-23 would all of a sudden look really good. It's stuff like that that could see niche non-viable picks be seen even in really high levels of play

[unkempt moss]

The sword scenario just made me realize that its could be used to grief teammates if people get angry. If I saw my light get off the ARN to play sword so we could move a box I'm not happy.

I can see people getting angry and throwing by swapping weapons that they dont care about.

[chilly granite]

it's really hard to avoid being winched if you're trying to fight a heavy with the matter

I don't mind the winch being a free kill when heavy is with teammates but I do think it should stun the user significantly longer than the victim, like, it's so weird that the guy holding a winch can put it down and pick uphis gun again faster than a guy who just is being on a rollercoaster ride?

it should be disadvantageous to use in a 1v1 because it's so advantageous in a 2v1, or in other situations imho

[serene glade]

I'm fine with arguments like that, but most the time it's just people going "me keep getting winched, remove it"

[chilly granite]

amazing take

[chilly granite]

Giving winch a windup would be fine too, it'd make dodging it at close range much more consistent. I can dodge winch pretty consistnetly with the bow because I can be at like, 10m and see the projectile coming, but at 2 meters facestuffing a matter in a heavy, it's impossible

[shell sonnet]

I really dislike how a lot of arguments for winch are just "have distance", when winch has enough range to cover a ton of buildings on almost any map

Even if you want to give them all the space they ask for, simply by jumping in through a window, theyre in range and can be pulling you into the loving arms of a bear about to maul you

[indigo nexus]

and, it being an objective based game and all, there's often no choice in any case

[unkempt moss]

Less about the distance and more about standing in front of the thing heavy.

[shell sonnet]

?

[compact tundra]

So to clarify my idea for winch is the heavy spins it around 1 handed to wind it up. It gains 5m of range per spin up to 15m. It takes .3 seconds per rotation. If you just tap the button then it instantly releases the 5m winch
So
0 sec for a 5m winch
.3 sec for a 10m winch
.6 for a 15 meter winch

This sounds fast but .6 seconds is about on par with most reloads. Might need a bit of a time nerf tho if it turns out too strong since it is getting a 3m range buff with this change

[chilly granite]

I also think the coin respawn timer should be much, much shorter. like you can have a shitty spawn and you're using a limited resource to respawn, there's a big risk to try to respawn and walk to team instead of just wiping

and you can also give team an effecitvely much longer respawn timer becuase you have to die again to teamwipe, which can also be a grief

coining comes wiht so many downsides and it's hard to use it anyway

[unkempt moss]

Beating winch is more about not standing in front of the heavy. Maybe its a playstyle thing but I really never had any issues with winch even at the peak of its usage.

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/knife-cat-cat-knife-cat-knife-cat-angry-gif-9404759922388476738

[unkempt moss]

What gun is reloading in less than a second??

[sudden pewter]

ARN second mag?

[chilly granite]

the fact that I get winched around walls fairly regularly means that the issue isn't even standing infornt of the heavy

[unkempt moss]

Aren't most of them like 1.5-3 seconds?

[shell sonnet]

Not standing in front of the heavy?
You mean anywhere inside the 12 meter dome?

[chilly granite]

it being a lassoo with a cool lasso effect also makes the stun (disabiling the arms) more logical and would look awseome

[shell sonnet]

Longer time

Still not ideal imo, but a good change

[shell sonnet]

Mb, its radius

The 24m dome

[chilly granite]

hahhaa

[unkempt moss]

Sure. If the heavy is 180 snapping on to you mid firefight to grab you then he deserves it. Because you either weren't waiting for your team or you were out of position to begin with.

[chilly granite]

double barrled players:

[compact tundra]

I think it'd go well since the 5m winch is more of a stun tool anyways and really just lets the heavy slide dodge you. And for any other winches you actually get a warning now. Also while spinning it'll make a loud chain rattling noise

[chilly granite]

tbh I think the min range winch is the one that needs a windup the most, as the projectile has the shortest travel time

[sudden pewter]

Winch should lose its stun completely and be purely focused on being a displacement tool. I shouldn’t get insane value out of winching an enemy right in front of me because of the stun

[chilly granite]

at least for light shotgun players

I'm not saying a lot of windup, just like, 100ms, so that it's still crazy hard to react to if you're in 2m, but it's at least technically possible if you have insane reactions

[sudden pewter]

Stun Gun was reworked but Winch remains seasons later, why?

[chilly granite]

like the winch windup + projectile should have a minimum of 150ms imho

[shell sonnet]

what is the alternative?
unless you want to be winched, your only option is a 2v1 (prime example of being broken/unbalanced) or to not fight at all, and concede the objective

[compact tundra]

With how quick and snappy the winch is now I don't really think travel time is too big of a deal anymore. And as for the matter, that thing can meat shot heavies from like 20 meters so it could easily play outside of the 5m range. The double barrel and melee would still be hurt by it tho

[chilly granite]

ehh ttk on matter sucks if you're hitting heavies at 20m, you won't kill them before the finish cashout

[compact tundra]

To be fair stun gun locked you in place for like 5 seconds, winch just gives the heavy like half a second of stun advantage

[shell sonnet]

"out of position"

aka. inside any building

[unkempt moss]

Like I said, it must be a playstyle thing. I have never had an issue with winch. I can always see the thing I did wrong to get winched.

[chilly granite]

how much light do you actually play though

[shell sonnet]

if you consider competing for the objective a death-punishable misplay, yeah, i can see that

[compact tundra]

That's fair but still the matter can easily play outside of the 5m position. It's closer to the model in its effective range

[shell sonnet]

needless to say, that shouldnt be the case

[chilly granite]

yeah I'd be totally fine wiht the windup on the matter, but it would still be extremely toxic for sword or db proably

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, but its use-cases are insanely one sided. Even at point blank it’s effective

The stun (even with how short it is) can 180 an engagement

[unkempt moss]

Do you just W key in to every fight? Cashouts are like two minutes. You have time to do what you need to get advantage.

[chilly granite]

half a second of stun advantage is huge on a light, that's literally enough time to kill a light with deagles from fullhp

[compact tundra]

I think it'd be fine, but we could lower the stun advantage for the shorter winches tho. I still want a stun advantage tho cause winch slide dodging is super fun and good skill expression

[shell sonnet]

again, what are my options?

dont engage, they keep the cap
engage, die

[chilly granite]

sometimes it doesn't go well and there's only 15s left and a heavy on point in a 1v1 as a light

[unkempt moss]

Engage slower? Get vision, make picks, soften the target before diving, use gadgets to make the situation advantageous for yourself.

[compact tundra]

It can, I wouldn't mind lowering the stun advantage, I just want to keep some advantage for using the winch to slide dodge. That's really all I see the stun advantage as good for. Maybe disable the heavies weapon until the stun advantage is over, I'd be ok with that

[shell sonnet]

get picks, how?
how do i soften the target without exposing myself to being winched?

[chilly granite]

there is literally always something you can do better no matter how well youplay, but the winch gives a massive advantage no matter how badly the heavy misplayed the prelude

[sudden pewter]

https://youtu.be/qzMnuzTLoNI?si=UXp1Yj2Mvi8kLq23

[chilly granite]

like having things you could've done better before you got winched doesn't mean that winch is balanced

[unkempt moss]

What loadout are you running?

[shell sonnet]

ive seen and picked apart the "just use gadget" argument before too

[sudden pewter]

This provides excellent in-game scenarios. Clickbait thumbnail though

[unkempt moss]

I just find it hard to believe that you have zero options when youre engaging a winch. Its just theres a winch on the map i auto lose this. May as well just take the ban and quit.

[sudden pewter]

Winch is strong but it isn’t an “I win” button

[shell sonnet]

so we gatekeeping now, awesome

i run most of the gadgets every now and again
discounting that they may be on cooldown or wont help

give me some strats a few gadgets have

[chilly granite]

it can be in certain scenarios

I'm pretty sure it just is for double barrel vs deagles

[indigo nexus]

let's be real, the biggest "I win" button in this game is left click

[sudden pewter]

No its (weapon I don’t like) or (thing I don’t like) obviously

[unkempt moss]

I'm not gatekeeping wtf. I asked to try and give examples. Youre victimizing yourself so hard about this winch when im trying to help.

[sudden pewter]

Girl boss

[unkempt moss]

Id say the biggest thing you can do to give yourself advantage against winch is vision Gadgets.

[shell sonnet]

ok, now what
i know the heavy is in there
how do i fight him?

[unkempt moss]

Do you run any grenades, are there barrels around, can you see him outside of 12m, is your team flanking.

Is he on the floor above you, below you?

[shell sonnet]

yeah, a bit agitated rn

was kind of expecting you to pull the classic "well just swap to [x] and do this very unreliable strategy" that ive picked apart 8 different times with seperate winch heavies

im honestly tired of it

ill admit, that ones on me, i just hope you do better than them regarding the discussion

[indigo nexus]

Personally I think I would focus on how fighting winch differs from fighting a gun, which is kind of the "default".

[unkempt moss]

If you want my cheat code its googun. It has an always will destroy winch with zero effort. But on light and medium I have plenty of tactis.

I dont play winch, so I'm legitimately coming from a place of trying to help you.

If they removed it from the game I wouldn't give a shit because it isnt a part of any of my heavy kits.

[shell sonnet]

grenades can be avoided, and often just deal chip damage
barrels are rng, dont always help, and can often be avoided
if theyre inside at all, no
depends on teammates, unreliable, and 2v1 balance philosophy again

[chilly granite]

the main issue for me is the skill issue, winch feels a lot less skillful to get kills; it freezes a light/medium igving at least 1 free headshots

[shell sonnet]

how does that change it?

[chilly granite]

like I can dodge shots via movement and dash normally, but against winch, there's nothing I can do to avoid that intial headshot and the winch hitbox is massive

and between chip damage and bfr doing 130? on a headshot, plus quickmelee combos

[unkempt moss]

I look at winch in the same way I look at riot shield tbh. If I'm coming at it straight on im doing something wrong. It is beatable.

These are all factors is what I'm saying. You ask me what to do but youre rarely standing in an open 12m hallway with zero team around you. Its highly dependent on what the scenario is.

[chilly granite]

if riot shield was even good, let alone strong, that argument would hold more weight

[unkempt moss]

I also dont think winch is that strong, which is why I approach it the same way.

[compact tundra]

As someone who does play winch but knows it's overpowered, what do you usually run, or what loadouts usually have trouble against winch?

I might could help you better work against winch since it does have weaknesses

[chilly granite]

even if we conceed that winch is weaker than riot shield, which I don't believe is true, winch has a skill floor in the basement while riot has a skillfloor on floor 15

yeah you can kill a lightfaster than they can react with deags

and the hitbox is bigger than fucking arrow

this winch will hit btw

[compact tundra]

This is what I kinda hate about winch, it's so easy with decent aim to get value out of so people hate winch and think it's bad at a conceptual level, but if you look at people who are pretty good with winch you see it's actually a lot more creative than people give it credit for. I'd love to see the skill floor rise without affecting the skill ceiling too much

I have the same take on goo gun too

[chilly granite]

Winch claw hitbox is 60cm radius, 1.2m wide

this hits every time

that's a conservative estimate btw, it might be a lil smaller or even wider

[sudden pewter]

I mean I get the frustration, with how unreliable the servers are it can be frustrating to “bait” a winch

[serene glade]

You WILL die around the corner and you WILL buy the ultimate battle pass

[unkempt moss]

My thing is I know RS is creative. I know he can figure out a way to get around it. But hes mentally defeated by the winch before he even fights it.

[chilly granite]

if winch projectile wasn't 1.2 meters wide it would be signficantly easier to dodge and a lot more skillbased and I think that alone would reduce peopel's complaints

[sudden pewter]

Nothing should ever require a sacrificial lamb to fight against

[indigo nexus]

So I suppose the difference here is that winch is much more prone to being baited than a shot is, but this may not satisfy the person choosing to bait it.

[unkempt moss]

Sacrificial lamb is how you play flame a lot of the time

[compact tundra]

To be fair tho offering one of your 2 random lights up as a sacrifice so you can shoot the winch heavy is really fun

[chilly granite]

winch also has a smaller hitbox for terrain collisions, which is why it drags behind walls and generally feels bulshits (unlike the arrow)

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, what’s stopping the Wincha(no hard r) from holding it until they can guarantee a winch

[shell sonnet]

back, had myself a little something to calm down
lets give this another shot

[serene glade]

Missing a winch claw only being 10 seconds cooldown is odd tho I will say

[unkempt moss]

RS, your winch is my defib. How you feel about winch is how much I hate defib. So I get the frustration.

[chilly granite]

but winch is beyond stupid, if it actualyl took skill to hit I htink most of the complaints would evaporate

[shell sonnet]

hey, some common ground

[unkempt moss]

Defib is a skill less crutch for absolute shitters covering up for their dogass play.

[shell sonnet]

give a sec, im thinking

[chilly granite]

winch's terrain hitbox is like, 2cm

[indigo nexus]

I don't think so, it's easily got the biggest sensitivity to small mistakes, of the specs.

[unkempt moss]

Which it sounds like you feel similar to winch. It sucks to have to change your entire play because theres a spec/gadget on the one team.

[chilly granite]

it's fucking tiny

[sudden pewter]

This applies to quite a few weapons though

Why is one okay and not the other?

[unkempt moss]

You're right. We find ways around the shit we hate. The GooHive I developed because I hate defib.

[chilly granite]

this hits btw, that's a max size crosshair at 3 meters

that measures out to a hitbox radius of 50cm, total winch widht of 1meter

[unkempt moss]

Thank you Catter this is exactly my point. You're constantly making adjustments in this game to defeat things that you hate or are good.

[chilly granite]

meanwhile it only has a physics hitbox of aobut 5cm

[shell sonnet]

thing with riot is, it doesnt suppress your presence

if its there, okey, look what they do
uncovered? blast away
blocking? go for the feet
approaching? (blocked or not blocking) run

you have the advantage

in the same situation
you either dont engage the winch heavy (if you know he exists), which means you cant contest the objective
or you try to get damage in, but peeking on a heavy exposes you to being winched
and if you try to play around a corner, baiting relies on them missing the winch, and you loose out on damage that the heavy can use to close the distance, where you then need to evacuate asap before he reaches your corner, and can winch you from there

[unkempt moss]

That's what makes the game so good.

[shell sonnet]

it isnt 12 meters, since it goes both ways, you can cover halls/rooms 24m across
and unless youre playing ranked or in a stack, you cant expect your teammates to deliberately push in with you (or to not die beforehand)

[sudden pewter]

I think the frustration (warranted or otherwise) is the imbalance of effort

[chilly granite]

this hits

40/40 crosshair gap/lenth at 3 meters

50cm radius 1meter diamter

[sudden pewter]

If you’re fighting a winch, you need to :

• Bait the winch
• Play around cover
• Play with support or die in the 1v1
  But if you’re winching it’s just:
• Get within 12m
• Hit a very forgiving projectile

And there’s no windup/warning with the winch, it’s thrown instantly

So no way to predict it other than “Heavy has winch equipped”

[unkempt moss]

I don't think you're wrong about anything youre saying RS. What i am saying is this. If winch is your kryptonite then you need to work on your specific ways to counter it. Yes its low effort, yes its too forgiving. We cant do anything about it except improve our own ability/kit and situation.

[indigo nexus]

If we took lights and heavies to be similarly potent overall, and we took dash and winch to be similarly viable relative to the class they are on, would this not be an implication that dashing was significantly harder than winching? Might not be of course, I am just trying to pin down what you mean

specs in a general sense are not hard to use (at least functionally) and generally aren't meant to have 'big' counters

[shell sonnet]

i dont really get it

how can you agree with what im saying, but still defend it?
are you?

[chilly granite]

very forgiving = an absolute joke. a strafing light can't dodge it; their movement is less than the size of the hitbox at 12 meters

[sudden pewter]

You’re absolutely right. Neither have mechanical complexity but Dash at the very least is useful proportional to the mobility it provides and the skill of the enemy tracking the light in an engagement

[chilly granite]

dash has a lot of mechanical complexity? reacting quickly to unexpected things and choosing the right direction to dash for a positional advatnage?

[indigo nexus]

My mind instantly associated this with a chatGPT response format due to the first clause

[unkempt moss]

Im not defending, its more that im not on the dev team. If they are done nerfing winch after the last round what would you do? Give up?

[chilly granite]

that's why most pro lights are controller players because ti gives dash 360 degrees of precision so you can get a more powerful position with every dash ( this is a theory and has no proof to back it up)

some people say it's for aim assist but I really doubt the aim assist is that strong tbh but I need to load up finals on my steamdeck and do some testing

[unkempt moss]

I dont personally have issues with winch, but I know that it sucks to go against something that you hate. So you have to find ways to adapt.

Embark isn't coming to save us.

[tardy mountain]

Hay yoo

[compact tundra]

Aim assist in the finals is decently weaker than in most other games. It's probably mostly for mobility

[chilly granite]

that's a differnet conversation. Thats what to do about winch in a meta where it must exist, not if it is balanced and reasonable. This is weapon and gadgets, not pro advice

we are here to discuss balance not the best counter

[tardy mountain]

What's app

[serene glade]

Aim assist is pretty strong, really helpful with tracking mid dash while having access to 360 dashes

[sudden pewter]

I refuse to use AI for anything. You’ve besmirched my honor with such an accusation.

[unkempt moss]

No we're here to discuss weapons and gadgets in whatever form that takes. For you its posting cross hairs and monologuing. For me its helping RS through his plateau.

[serene glade]

Don't think it's on the level of apex aim assist, but it's still insanely good

[sudden pewter]

We duel at dawn. @indigo nexus

[shell sonnet]

might take you up on that offer later if you dont mind
i may forget tho

[chilly granite]

I mean, you can do that too, but you're usually shutting down discussion about winch rather than letting balance discusion take place

winch is undoubtedly a bullshit cannon

[compact tundra]

I'm down, winch isn't as hard to fight as a lot of people think tho it is pretty punishing against close range weapons and lights. It's more of a mentality check than anything. Cause with this one heavy you have to play your range and not get aggressive

[chilly granite]

even if it's no overpowerd, it's underskilled

[shell sonnet]

that shit has truely poisioned the way we speak

i legit cant unthink it every time i hear that june voiceline

[unkempt moss]

Weve discussed winch balance to death. Everyone here has ideas to fix it. Its not getting fixed any time soon. So I've moved on to helping an individual that I know is more resourceful than giving up on beating somethinh.

[indigo nexus]

not an accusation, I didn't think you were. It just triggered that circuit in my mind. Mental flashbang.

[chilly granite]

and to that point, if you are a mid-skill player and aren't great at keeping track of the enemy players specs and gadgets, it can just be instant death for you because you don't know he has winch

the skillfloor for playing against winch is 20x the skillfloor for playing it

[unkempt moss]

Especially an individual I know plays GooGun.

[compact tundra]

I agree, that's why what I want nerfed on winch is the skill floor, I want the skill ceiling mostly untouched tho outside of what is necessary to limit the skill floor

[chilly granite]

agreed

tbh I think just dumpstering the projectile would fix it a lot

I had no idea it was a meter wide and didn't collide with physics

[shell sonnet]

not ignoring you, brain wants to wander a little

[unkempt moss]

All good. Just do some theory crafting on it with a positive outlook.

[chilly granite]

if next patch embark makes the physics hitbox and player hitbox on wich the same size it's confirmed they'e listenitng to me

[serene glade]

That sounds like a lot of work and they tend to do as little as possible

[sudden pewter]

Understandable

[chilly granite]

the projctile size is just 1 number change in a config file?

[serene glade]

Yeah that's a lot

[sudden pewter]

Scottie’s “Wahoo” line

[chilly granite]

*assuming that the game is as well designed as tf2

[shell sonnet]

dont wanna give up
and its not like i dont win sometimes

its just... yknow?

lemme try to pull up an example situation

imagine a winch heavy holds the cashout in this house

i have akm, gas mine, explosive mine, and goo nade

what do i do?

[slender fiber]

any charge n slam believers

[sudden pewter]

Essentially forced to use the Goo Nade to buy time to make space and regroup with a teammate

[indigo nexus]

if it was a true 1v1 (quite unrealistic) you would first need to figure out where he was without giving him an easy opportunity to engage you in a fight you couldn't exit. This would be hard.

If you could do that, use the goo and gas to lock him in a gas chamber!!

[sudden pewter]

I get the potential frustration but this is 100% a team game. You should always be orbiting a homie or have one orbiting you

[unkempt moss]

What spec?

[sudden pewter]

Can’t be expected to do everything yourself

[chilly granite]

OH MY GOD

They added extra code to make it not hit behidn walls despite the size of the hitbox, so the game is like, manipulating the winch hitbox size

so if you shoot the winch past a barricade, the winch shrinks

no wonder it feels so broken

[tardy mountain]

Hay you
What's up

[shell sonnet]

i wonder what you would have to say about demat

[chilly granite]

idk what's going on wtih the winch claw but it's so broken, not even "good or bad" just "fucked/non-working"

[shell sonnet]

cant expect casuals to do that sadly

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, valid. I mainly play Heavy and I find myself abandoned like a puppy 80% of the time

[shell sonnet]

amount of complaints i presume
always is

[sudden pewter]

But that’s a teammate issue rather than a balance issue. I wouldn’t suggest Heavy needs mobility to keep up

[chilly granite]

yeah but winch doesn't require you to play with your team, that's why I say it should stun the heavy longer. it's a team game.

like, being a mutal stun is still a win becuase you can drop dome and then bring someone in and your teammates hsould be able to kill them in the initial stun if they're functional humans anyway

[slender fiber]

winch shouldn't be value to use at point blank and it shouldnt put heavy at a supreme advantage in a 1v1

[unkempt moss]

Looks like second floor. Demat you can drop him and isolate him from his team, or get above him since I think that house has 3 floors and shoot down on to him. Demat youre having to try and not get winched around a wall though. You could googren rhe wall outside the floor and give yourself a peek behind him with demat where he doesnt see it coming.

But I think Catter is right that googrenade is your best play here. I probably throw it off the back wall to cut off vision from the door.

[slender fiber]

(and they should buff charge n slam it's the most fun by far)

[indigo nexus]

Speaking of, I want to run a goo heavy build where I use gas nades to attempt to use this as my primary strategy

[unkempt moss]

Demat is THE playmaking spec so its where you can can get more value out of creativity. On medium**

[chilly granite]

I feel like charge's wind up is ridiculously long in a world where winch has none

[shell sonnet]

but all of that still doesnt protect me from winch
at best, giving me a slight advantage and maybe some chip damage before im winched anyways

and goo nade only buys time, but doesnt actually do anything, because to see and shoot him, he needs to be able to shoot me back

[chilly granite]

can'y you drop a gas grenade and demat/remat the floor fast enough for it to pop below on the heavy?

i haven't used dmat like ever

[slender fiber]

and the turning speed is so slow 😔

[unkempt moss]

This is a 1v1 right? I'll be real, bringing in double mines is hurting us here because you dont have a proper engagement tool to play off of demat.

[chilly granite]

tbh I thk the turn speed is reasonably balanced

[shell sonnet]

can, but to what end?
they just move to the side

you cut a bit of the room off for them, but still more than enough space to walk, and all the cover they need

[potent ocean]

Man I don't know about them weapons guys

[slender fiber]

eh it's a little bit too easy to sidestep even as a heavy where you're slow as

don't even consider dash lights

[chilly granite]

I feel like that's mostly becuase of the windup thoguh? if you transitioned faster gave them less warning it's harder to dodge

[jovial geyser]

i mean i like'em,

[slender fiber]

that's also true

[shell sonnet]

yeah fair
lemme look for one of my loadouts

[chilly granite]

an actaully skileld heavy sohuld speak on charge and slam balance more than me thoguh

[slender fiber]

and max slam damage should one shot lights it would be funny and they deserve it

[chilly granite]

it does already?

[slender fiber]

I thought it was like 100

[chilly granite]

50-200 Ground Slam

[slender fiber]

oh damn ok how do you get that much height, ig on seoul under construction it would be easier

[chilly granite]

jump pad is how i've seen

I think you also need to activate at the apex of the jump? not sure

[unkempt moss]

I'd say an offensive Grenade would round that out quite a bit because we're all about giving yourself advantage. You need to use demat and your grenade to shift advantage in your favor here by taking angles it would be hard to winch you at.

[slender fiber]

I would imagine so

[chilly granite]

tbh I never really have an issue playing against winch players that I know have winch unless I'm using shotgun, but the problem is that at my skill level, keeping track and noticing enemy specs is hard

[unkempt moss]

Really you shouldn't be beating the heavy in a 1v1 like this head on, regardless of a spec. Assuming equal skill and equal loadout strength you should lose this.

[chilly granite]

as a tdm main everyone is a dash light, so you don't normlaly need to think about what specs people have and how that impacts the game

so it's not a skill I have basically any practice in

[chilly granite]

that's the issue with winch though, it wins with a severe skill deficit

[unkempt moss]

Thats why I said regardless of spec. Because he technically shouldnt be losing on heavy in a situation where heavy has full control of a room and 1v1 head on.

[slender fiber]

yeah heavy has some of the best setup and defence stuff

[unkempt moss]

Winch, GooGun, Mesh, and even Charge should give the heavy enough burst and control to deal with a 1v1 in a room. Especially with gadgets.

[chilly granite]

yeah but for th eothers you gotta at least hit your shots or your spec(cns)

and charge is harder to hit than any gun imho (skill issue maybe)

but winch makes you land at least 1 shot for free

[unkempt moss]

CnS is easier than winch. CnS just puts you of position.

[chilly granite]

charge and slam is mathematically not easier than wich

[slender fiber]

i use charge, dome, C4 and rpg am I putting too many of my eggs in one basket or is this secretly a goat loadout

[unkempt moss]

Effectively, CnS is far easier than winch. There's a reason its the new heavy player spec.

[chilly granite]

I literally just tested the winch projectile it's 1 meter wide and you want to tell me it's harder to hit that projectile than it is to run on someone

[slender fiber]

assuming equal skill it's much easier to counterplay and much harder to get full value out of meaning it is not easier than winch

[chilly granite]

charge and slam is easier to aim, but not easier to land

it's easier to aim becuase you are walking ontop of them at 0 meters

[slender fiber]

also winch cancels your charge for some reason which confuses me, would pulling someone to you stop them from charging at you

[unkempt moss]

CnS just has more risk to it because it puts you out of position. Functionally it is easier. Theyre both instant, close distance, and allow for insane burst.

[chilly granite]

it would make sense if it was a lasso

[chilly granite]

charge litearlly isn't instant

[unkempt moss]

If you say so.

[slender fiber]

it has a significant windup

[unkempt moss]

Charge and slam? It does damage the second you hit the button, no?

[chilly granite]

no

[slender fiber]

no

[chilly granite]

it's about half a second of windup, I'm literally measuring it now

[sudden pewter]

There’s a brief period (I’m talking like 0.3iirc) where Heavy switches into the ram animation

[unkempt moss]

I see. So its like the windup and pull of a winch.

[sudden pewter]

100 damage on first hit and 40 every other

[slender fiber]

also someone with 0 hours on the game could pick up sledge and winch, hit a massive projectile then right click left click an easy kill on most

[tardy mountain]

Your fav sledge skin?

[chilly granite]

frame 105, cns animatino start 132, first ddamage tick

450ms windup charge and slam

[shell sonnet]

technically
but it doesnt instantly hit you from any point within is range at the press of a button
(though cns notably is still decently easy to hit, but thats what we nerfed the damage for)

[unkempt moss]

Its fine. They can be mathematically correct. Functionally CnS is far easier to understand and use.

[muted condor]

C&S needs to be updated imo

It’s kinda outdated in the current game

[slender fiber]

I feel like "hook that pulls" is easier to understand than "charge at people for up to 3-4 hits them jump to slam or use it in the air for a higher slam"

[chilly granite]

148 to 166 from cast to hit on winch claw, but even point blank the projectile will take a tiny bit to travel I think

[unkempt moss]

I think C&S needs to have ramping damage and work similar to cloak in that you can use it to clear walls consecutively more effectively.

[slender fiber]

so many games have hook abilities identical to winch it's not exactly an alien concept

[unkempt moss]

A skill shot, regardless of how easy it is, is almost surely more advanced than "enhanced W key"

[slender fiber]

skill shot with a hitbox the size of a heavy is about as hard to hit as the charge with slow turning and a hitbox the size of a heavy

[chilly granite]

winch claw windup seems to be about 300ms

[slender fiber]

winch probably has a higher skill ceiling because CNS needs an update but winch is easier to understand

[unkempt moss]

I mean im not going to get you to agree with me on this, which is fine.

[chilly granite]

hitbox literally bigger than heavy btw

[unkempt moss]

This is just a detour I took because I got stunlocked in to talking with bow user waiting for RS to respond.

[shell sonnet]

how about this, for an ideal matchup
what would you pick?

like, you already know a winch heavy will be in there
what would you want to have at that moment

[unkempt moss]

On medium?

[shell sonnet]

any class really

[shell sonnet]

ye sorry, got occupied for a sec

[chilly granite]

winch reuqires effort to miss on a light, while a light can jusst run away from charge and slam

[shell sonnet]

whatever is left of my brain will throw some heavy opinions glazed with bs and a sprinkle of bias your way

[unkempt moss]

Ill go medium because GooGun is an auto win against winch.

I'd probably go Cerb, Demat, Glitch, Frag, and Goo. Strictly for a 1v1 though. The problem is the team aspect. Youre expected to run Defib and Movement.

[chilly granite]

oh the winch is stupid

it shoots at the angle when you press the button, not at the angle when the thing gets thrown, that's why I can't aim it

[compact tundra]

There really 2 good routes to take without even considering your gadgets and spec

Out range them

Or out damage them
(Riot and heavy only)

For ranged
On light or heavy a wall breaching long to mid ranged weapon is a good kit. So thermal bore or RPG + C4 and then a good long to medium ranged weapon.

You can also just out position then and manage the sightlines given to you. This works for any class

For out damaging them
pick a short ranged heavy weapon or the riot shield on medium and just try to put dps them once your winched. If they have flamethrower or a tracking style Weapon then this becomes much easier. Some weapons you can't out dps tho like sledge, a good titan, and a good SA-12 heavy

[unkempt moss]

If I had to play with a team and win this 1v1 I probably go Cerb, Demat, Glitch. Use demat to be the mole in whackamole, stay elusive and use glitch to drop in from the floor above. Using the glitch to hopefully interrupt a winch or distract the heavy, use burn to chip away at heavy.

[shell sonnet]

which is another downside of trying to account for it
either you doont run these, or you keep them, have less answers, and none of the items you would usually have fun with (unless its already those)

[shell sonnet]

problem with range is, they have cover
you got a signline, they move
if you come for the objective, they will re-appear

[unkempt moss]

That would be my approach though. Unfortunately, you really aren't supposed to win that 1v1 in that room against the area denial class. He has every advantage even without winch.

[chilly granite]

so why the fuck does he need winch

[compact tundra]

That is why I also recommended the long ranged wall breaching loadouts, thermal bore and double destruction heavy are good against that ratty playstyle

[chilly granite]

at 5 meters, aiming dead center on a strafing medium, winch hits

that is not true of charge and slam

and that's aiming dead center when pressing the butotn, not accounting for the 300ms animation

[shell sonnet]

without winch i can poke, run, maybe regen a little, then re-engage

with winch im instantly punished for my hubris, and pulled too far into the room to escape, while having no serious shot at fighting back

[unkempt moss]

Got it. Youre right. CnS is very hard and skillful compared to winchv

[shell sonnet]

i dont mind heavy being stronger in a prepared set-up/ 1v1

problem is how winch takes interactivity out

dont fight or be winched, which then yada yada

[slender fiber]

putting yourself in such danger afterwards is already gonna require more skill input on your part to not just explode after than pulling someone else into your whole team

[unkempt moss]

Im agree with you. You guys are right. Its harder

[slender fiber]

oh ok right I'm more used to sarcasm

[chilly granite]

sorry it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic

[shell sonnet]

know the feeling

[chilly granite]

but yeah, at least if the winch stunned you after ruining someone else's positioning, it could be punished a bit. If you're already set up in a room you can already winch them onto a nuke

[unkempt moss]

Its more thag its not worth interrupting the conversation im having already to try and convince people of something that is irrelevant.

[chilly granite]

spells that grief the enemy positioning are inherently overpowered

[unkempt moss]

I get that, and theres definitely things they can do to make that more fair. Like a wind up and stuff. But we're stuck with embarks slow to change style.

[chilly granite]

also, maybe i'm skill issues, but I can't hit charge and slam to save my life and I find it super easy to hit winch relativlely

and yeha, winch -> sa-> qucikmelee is an instakill on light, the onlyhard part is qucikmelee but i'm probably skillissueing myself by saying I can't hit quickmelee to save my life

[slender fiber]

this isn't exactly deadlock afterall where hard CC has counters and such

[chilly granite]

if you crouch then it's entirely skilless

you don't need to contorl recoil, you don't need to aim, you just need to hold m1

then press qm when the first two shots are shot

I think the quickmelee is dodgeable theoretically,but I'm bad at using quickmelee so I don't trust myself tobe an accurate represenatation

I'm 100% sure that embark devs are all heavy mains, litearlly every balance decision is nicest to heavy

light's entirel relevence is predicated on heavy. Move the ehavy to the point, gateway. Heal the heavy, h+. Counter the heavy, glitch.

delete glitch h+ and gatway and light won't be played at all

(in high level/pro)

man

i just got left clicked to death by a dagger while I tried to charge him

no way this is easier than winch

[compact tundra]

Charge is not easier than expected winch

[muted condor]

[compact tundra]

Tho not saying charge is difficult, and it is easier to use charge for its destruction than winch for its grab. But looking at good usage of both charge is harder

[chilly granite]

yeah I'm not saying charge is difficult at all, I know it's mostly a skill isue hahha

[muted condor]

Literally what every class says about every other class

[chilly granite]

i mean, not nerfing dash is a beyond unreasonable take

but at the same time, light's skill floor is dramatically higher than heavy and medium and the efficacy for that skill floor is mid at best