💣┇weapons-gadgets

[hardy dust]

But the point still stands, the qm changes were a big nerf for a bunch of weapons, including model

Also nicher weapons like ks and sr

[spark igloo]

Ben reaching into the (bad) hat to pull out his take of the day

[royal pier]

That's true, but the hitscan full autos and DMRs were already pushing them out of the meta. They should come down in power. Removing the fix doesn't change much.

[sand monolith]

Hitscan full auto has never been pushing out burst damage meta lol

Real light weapon tierlist of facts and knowledge

[royal pier]

Go away.

"I haven't played S6 ranked but know more than people who have."

[sand monolith]

Dawg you’re like silver I can play negative and know more

[royal pier]

Personal attacks, nice

You always resort to personal, unsubstantiated attacks when you have strong arguments.

[sand monolith]

Not really an attack it’s just a generalized argument based on rank

[royal pier]

You have no idea what my rank is.

[sand monolith]

Yes that is correct I am assuming

[royal pier]

Also, as we were discussing while you were away, balance matters at all levels, not just for the couple hundred (at most) high ranked players.

[sand monolith]

Yes it does

i say that all the time

[royal pier]

The reality is that if you play QM/WT, you'll see mostly hitscan full autos.

[sand monolith]

Yes because they’re comfortable weapons

[royal pier]

Meanwhile, the advertising focuses on weapons you barely even see.

[hardy dust]

?

[sand monolith]

I don’t think nerfing a weapon that isn’t op because people like playing it is the best idea lol

[royal pier]

No wonder so many try this game and bail. If I joined for sledgehammer, Flamethrower, and MGL32 and saw only ARs and SMGs most of the time, I'd feel lied to.

[sand monolith]

“Game is dying because of my reason”

[royal pier]

"Look at these cool weapons! Hardly anyone uses them!"

[hardy dust]

People play what they want to. Most people are more comfortable with a generic ar over a niche weapon like a sledge just by default.

[sand monolith]

Hm I actually don’t think the most popular weapon type being easily accessible and decent is what’s killing the game

Especially when the other weapons are still better

Remember when autos were really bad in season 3 and nobody played the game

[hardy dust]

Tbf that was also terminal attack and kyoto

[sand monolith]

Yes

[plush harbor]

doesnt stop them from using the weapons does it

[hardy dust]

But still, automatics being high tier is healthy

[plush harbor]

if i wanted to start playing a game to SPECIFICALLY fight a certain type of weapon...

[sand monolith]

But casual retention was really bad as well

[hardy dust]

Niche weapons should be viable but niche

[sand monolith]

Autos aren’t even high tier they’re just perfectly mid. Usable in casual without being the meta in ranked

They’re kinda in the best spot they’ve ever been in

[hardy dust]

Well, they're kinda mid-high tier. Not meta but consistently kinda good.

[royal pier]

People play what gives the most reward for the least effort, on average. This has been well documented since before video games even existed.

[sand monolith]

Yeah depends on the auto

[hardy dust]

Some are meta, but most are just fine

[sand monolith]

“So let’s make the high effort weapons meta in casual”

[hardy dust]

Wow its almost as if something you're familiar with will give better results than something very foreign

[royal pier]

If they are clearly outclassed, it stops them from enjoying the experience.

[hardy dust]

Most aren't, but some definitely need help

[royal pier]

Did I say that? No. I did not.

It would simply make them more viable so that more people use them.

[hardy dust]

The only ones that really need help are med melees, dagger, sr and maybe spear and nade launchers

[hardy dust]

You were saying that full autos needed nerfs

[sand monolith]

They are more viable than the autos. Most people want to use autos because of exactly what you posted. Don’t force casuals off of what’s comfortable or they will leave. You are arguing against your own evidence at this point

[royal pier]

Pretty easy balance philosophy.

Easy to use, low damage.

Harder to use, higher damage.

Atm, the hitscan full autos are both easy to use, and have high damage on average.

[royal pier]

Again, did I say to force them off of them?

No. I did not.

[sand monolith]

Dude

[hardy dust]

Not necessarily. That just makes them only viable at low tier and useless at high tier

Not to mention not all of them have high damage, only a few

[restive plover]

Y'all this game isn't dead or dying. Diabotical is a dead game. Just because the game doesn't have 50k players doesn't mean it's dead.

[sand monolith]

If people are using full autos because they’re comfortable. And you NERF them with the goal of making those people switch, you are forcing them off of it

[restive plover]

Y'all need to adjust what is considered dead or alive. If you can find a game in less then a minute the game you're playing is by no means dead.

[sand monolith]

Balancing off of ease of use is notoriously bad in fps games lol

[sand monolith]

Who is saying the game is dead???

[royal pier]

You are pretending I said to gut them, and I didn't.

[sand monolith]

No I’m not dude. I literally didn’t say that

[hardy dust]

You're saying to nerf them to force people to use alternate options

[sand monolith]

This. This is all that matters.

[royal pier]

Try arguing with what I posted, not what you wish I posted.

[sand monolith]

lol you’re a fucking moron

[royal pier]

Nope. Let those that want to use them to greater effect.

[hardy dust]

???

[sand monolith]

Coherent sentence

[restive plover]

.

[hardy dust]

Just buff niche underpowered options. No need to nerf healthy weapons that the majority of people are comfortable with

[royal pier]

A mild DPS nerf to even them up with the alternatives is not the same as making the other weapons top tier.

[sand monolith]

Yes casual retention was bad in s3 that’s just a fact. Didn’t say the game is dead

[hardy dust]

They don't need a nerf for the most part

[royal pier]

That's called power creep, and it's why most every light you see is using the MP5.

[restive plover]

What were the player numbers?

[hardy dust]

Not to mention a lot of the alternatives are already stronger

[royal pier]

Not my fault your reading comprehension is shit.

[hardy dust]

Xp has literally been in a stronger state before

[sand monolith]

Buffing underpowered weapons to compete with mid tier weapons is not power creep

[restive plover]

Shit, I still actively play diabotical duel, that scene has like 3 people.

[hardy dust]

Are you a real person??

[sand monolith]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1344791352449433663/1344803823100756049/togif-1.gif

[royal pier]

What I said: A small DPS nerf to hitscan full autos would make the alternatives more viable.

What you pretend I said: I want the hitscan full autos to be dogshit and useless.

[sand monolith]

Dude is arguing with his demons

Genuinely making up interpretations and arguing against them

[hardy dust]

You know what else would make alternatives more viable without making the balanced, healthy, mainstream weapons feel worse?

A buff to underpowered alternatives.

[sand monolith]

🤯

[royal pier]

Hey look, your own words.

[sand monolith]

Where did I say you’re trying to make them horrible??? Can you read???

[hardy dust]

Making bad weapons feel good is better than making good weapons feel bad.

[royal pier]

So that ttk continues to drop and the game becomes less and less about gadgets and specializations, and more about being the ones who attack first.

[hardy dust]

You were literally asking for nerfs so people would switch to alternative weapons

[sand monolith]

Wait… maybe making the most popular and comfortable weapon archetype feel worse to use is a bad idea

[royal pier]

Also, never said they couldn't do buffs as well. So more bad faith arguments.

[hardy dust]

The ttk is the same as before, except its closer to a level playing field

[sand monolith]

You are arguing for nerfs. Nobody is saying you said to never buff. We are arguing against what YOU suggested

[hardy dust]

And the automatic ttks are healthy.

[sand monolith]

That’s not a bad faith argument you are just providing a bad solution and saying “I DIDNT SAY WE COULDNT DO THAT” to a better solution

[royal pier]

Your argument is to keep things as they are for hitscan full autos, but also buff the weaker options.

So you end up at the same end, but now everything kills faster.

[sand monolith]

The ttk of auto weapons aren’t unhealthy

[hardy dust]

Now everything is at a healthy ttk

[sand monolith]

If you said to buff things up to the state of automatics in s1 or s2 I’d call you insane

[agile storm]

I want the pike to have a tad bit faster firerate. I know they buffed it, but i want it to be like the FAL from BO2

[royal pier]

I disagree. Longer ttk is better, and more skillful.

Do you want spear being able to 1 stab + QM a light? Cause that's what buffing it can lead to.

[sand monolith]

We’ve already seen automatics with higher ttk when the LMGs got gutted in season 3. It wasn’t fun to use at all and people fucking hated it

[royal pier]

Who's people?

[royal pier]

Speak for yourself.

Also they felt bad due to visual recoil.

[sand monolith]

community sentiment clearly considering game feedback complained repeatedly and they got buffed next season

[final lotus]

Is this matchup I had against this medium fair?

[royal pier]

They are all objectively easier to use now that visual recoil is nearly gone. This means those not using a third party crosshair are more accurate.

[sand monolith]

good

[hardy dust]

yeah, the medium just missed a lot

[sand monolith]

lmgs also didnt get affected by visual recoil nearly as much as the other autos though

[royal pier]

Lol wut? They didn't even have sights at the time and bulky irons.

[hardy dust]

not to mention them pushing you so that they entered your range without using any util

[sand monolith]

their visual recoil just wasnt as much, you also move slower while using them and movement speed was a big factor with visual recoil

[shell sonnet]

also, what about dagger
how are you gonna balance dagger of all things against a fast ttk?

imo its a generally better approach to have everything be slightly too weak, than slightly too strong
(im not saying that they should nerf or buff anything, dont wanna get into that this late today)
just generally, i think this is at base, not a bad idea

[royal pier]

I'm also annoyed at them stripping guns of personality with all these optics. Sights are a good way to balance a weapon, and that's gone now.

[sand monolith]

"sights are a good way to balance weapons"

[royal pier]

They are you ignorant mass. You can make a gun have high DPS and balance it with harder to use iron sights, or make a lower DPS weapon better by giving it good optics.

[sand monolith]

NO LMAO

[final lotus]

Dagger already has an 800ms charge up time and slower than heavy movement when backstabbing, as well as the main counter to reliably shutout a dagger is awareness

[sand monolith]

thats fucking horrid game design LOL

"oh here this weapon is just the best in the game but it feels like shit to use becuse its sight blows"

we already saw this with old lh1 and it was fucking horrid

its the same reason why recoil is a bad balancing angle

[shell sonnet]

not sure what youre getting at?
how is this related to my point

[royal pier]

Yeah Dagger has always been in a weird spot. They've done the backstab angle change to make the insta-kill harder, but now it's just less reliable due to server jank.

If ttk was a bit higher, the angle could be wider, but damage lower, because they also won't die as fast.

Higher ttk makes gadgets, specs, and teamwork more important as well.

[final lotus]

Well I'm giving you many points as to why dagger would be bad with a fast ttk and these are things you would improve to fit a quicker ttk? Is this confusing to you?

[royal pier]

I think they were saying that Dagger is in a weird spot due to the current ttk being on the low end.

Why use Dagger when the MP5 is easier and kills fast?

[shell sonnet]

that these are its downsides was kinda clear, that this was intended to point out what to improve on is where you had me
trying not to get too deep into this because i know my brain is fried after 2 am

[final lotus]

The time it takes to charge-up a backstab and actually get to backstabbing exceeds the ttk of some weapons, dagger needs buffs to thr handling, I don't mind a longer charge-up time to instantly kill, but slowing movement down to be slower than a heavy is what holds it back a lot

[royal pier]

Double Barrel and M26 already eat Dagger's lunch. Where dagger shines is steal denial since they can insta-kill at the last second.

[royal pier]

That's why I was saying bringing the average ttk up would buff dagger. Do we really want dagger to be faster to charge while still insta-killing?

It would make the risk more worthwhile.

[final lotus]

Never said anything about a faster charge, I just want to be able to move while backstabbing, not move slower than a heavy

[royal pier]

I mean you're intended to use either Dash to counter that, or Cloak to be sneaky.

Because any sort of speed buff effectively makes it kill faster.

[final lotus]

You're really going to lecture me on dagger bro, when I've mained it Season 1 with cloak

[shell sonnet]

while the moving slow part is bad, i think the angle might be even worse
even if just for the casual scene, you can work around downsides like the charge up or being slowed (latter one being to set up stabs on a stealer for example)

but the angle which can literally make you miss while hitting their 11th vertebrae is worse

you can work around drawbacks, you cant work around literal inconsistency

dagger needs its angle back imo

[royal pier]

I wasn't lecturing on Dagger. I'm talking about the game balance as a whole.

[final lotus]

You realise cloak is loud as fuck right? Removing the movement penalty removes the need to take dash and would make it not way better with dash, but make the other specialisations more viable. Literally every dagger player except me and perhaps one or two others doesn't use dash

The fact a small knife for the fastest build in a game restricts you to slower than heavy movement to make effective use of it is absurd. The longer charge time keeps the team wipe potential in check. While having movement allows you to close the distance sneakily against distracted enemies, since engagements from player to player are around a few seconds, the slow ass movement gives enemies way too much time to turn around

[shell sonnet]

i would change dagger in like 2-3 stats at once and see how it feels after

give it its old angle back (or very slightly less than original for technicalities sake)
let it keep up with mediums while charging (or only slow down when its fully charged)
and increase the charge up by some amount to counteract the face stabbing by allowing for some more time to fight beforehand if they go for a straight up confrontation instead of an ambush

[final lotus]

The slowdown and your need to slow it down does nothing but fuck over the dagger player, why are you so afraid to take away the movement penalty, it will not change the experience someone has when they get backstabbed, it just gives more control to the dagger player that positioned and time their attack right.

[final lotus]

800ms to charge an attack while the sword is only 433ms is already long enough, why must it be even longer?

[shell sonnet]

im a little afraid people will complain if we uber buff it

slow down on full charge makes it slightly harder to position yourself for a trickstab with dash, to counteract it a little and prevent complaints

[shell sonnet]

i find dagger currently almost borderline unusable due to its inconsistency
my first priority would be to make it usable (even if worse)

[final lotus]

Uber Buffs on paper, but in practice, the interaction is no different, other than being backstabbed more from behind by being unaware, this doesn't change the interaction an aware opponent would have getting dashstabbed

[shell sonnet]

it does, they get more time to punish ""improper"" usage of non ambush dagger, to hopefully eliminate the face stab complaints so we can focus on getting it other buffs

[final lotus]

Playing with cloak and dagger, there frequent frustrating moments where I should have landed a backstab and it didn't, but the moments where I wish I could sprint to stab someone far outweighs the times I have no-reg'd

[shell sonnet]

probably comes down to personal experiences too tho, i use it mainly with dash, hence i have the other problem more

but i also kinda want cloak to be better with dagger too

but like, my proposed changes would still help, right?
its not much, but being full speed until its charged would help a little

[final lotus]

"Facestabs" are purely server-sided, and I don't know if you realise, but there is around a 150ms - 200ms where the stab hits on your end, but the server has to make a validation check, so enemies are alive long enough to see themselves get backstabbed, which is what causes so many dashstabs to look like facestabs the reality is facestabs don't exist, they are simply mistaken as facestabs because the server takes a small amount of time to validate the stab, even though client sided you've already stabbed them

[shell sonnet]

i know they dont exist, but that doesnt change the victims experience

we can ask for straight up buffs all we want, if people complain against them because of this nothing will happen

hence i kinda try to think of something that can keep the other side calm while trying to improve our situation

[final lotus]

It would help, but it's a bandaid fix, it heavily disrupts the flow, I always thought they should bring back the open beta mechanic of holding a backstab charge for too long should reset it, so you can't permanently hold your backstab charge, you have to commit to the timing otherwise you will have to charge it up again

Open Beta was 10 seconds of hold charge before it reset, with unrestricted movement penalty, I would be happy with 5 seconds

[shell sonnet]

i liked the tap -> stab thing
that was most of how i used it

[shell sonnet]

question is, why did they move on from that?
i dont think they did for no reason
and few people just wanna jump back on something that didnt work before for some reason

[final lotus]

Because dagger was dog shit in open beta, and they tried to change it to be easier to use with a forced animation of 750ms

[jade lava]

maybe its just me but vanish bomb seems a bit broken when throwing with alt fire. also the fact it goes through some of the walls on kyoto but no other grenade does.

[royal pier]

@shell sonnet I'm starting to wonder if the smoke from the explosive canister somehow acts like powder/smoke nades and puts out the fire from Pyro mines lol.

[royal pier]

Or it has to do with the order of explosions.

[royal pier]

Wait, or possibly whether or not it gets picked up in between having the mines placed on it.

Holy shit I think that might be it.

Nvm, just got a lucky string of successes.

[pastel vault]

Honestly, buff the model 1887, its unusuable rn

[vague verge]

just lower the ROF, make it more consistent over range and then bam its a long range shotgun to oppose the cerb

[sage citrus]

It was fine the way it was.
It didn't need any nerfs

[vague verge]

also reduce dmg of cerb, buff fire and ROF

I garuntee the ROF buff isnt as good as it seems because of panic shooting

[pastel vault]

No it used to be op now its trash

[vague verge]

hes talking about its state in s5 not s4

it for some reason got nerfed further in s6

[pastel vault]

Ceberus isnt even that op, its really good yes

Its just that its only other shotgun contender on medium id currently so bad

[vague verge]

its performance is simmilar to pre nerf model, it isOP

[pastel vault]

Im having hard time managing to create real moments with the cerberus personally..

Honestly the thing that messes the model so much is the tactical eject and catch shell animation

[visual geyser]

best scope for the new medium weapon?

[wind lintel]

Does anyone else feel like pyro mines are a must pick for heavy
It's kinda hard trying to make a fun and useful heavy build without putting it in a slot

They're just so good at general game denial

[vague verge]

skill issue then

[vague verge]

pyro mines are my goat but so is goo

real issue having to pick between the 2

honestly the other mines should be buffed to meet pyro

reduce the gas mine cloud size but give us like 3 of them, and buff the dmg of explosive to 120 or so

actually gas mines are held back by being gas in the first place

idk if explosive mines set them off but pyro def does, including all the other ways to burn it

its a pick that has negative synergy with a lot of stuff

what if tear gas is added as a non flammable weaker gas alternative?

idk if tear gas is really flammable or not but it would basically be nerfed flashbang

[wind lintel]

I mean gas is good for stalling and area denial
pyro is better at killing, like when placed on a totem

[boreal laurel]

I feel you; I could probably run without them but I love them too much for that 🔥🔥🔥

[primal hound]

does the xp feel too strong or am i just silly (i got beamed and killed from full HP as heavy in under a sec) i dont wanna unnecessarily nerf stuff but it seemed REALLY, REALLY strong

[tranquil rose]

It's basically back from it's first version if not stronger. They gave it more range and damage in patch 6.0.0, adding with the 4 more bullets in patch 5.0.0 it became a beast again.

It only needed more bullets, not more damage :/ so we're now stuck again with a light melting weapon

As long as it exists the ARN-220 is worthless too

[primal hound]

yeahh, i dont really see why both coexist cause they compete for the same role imo. i feel like essentially: M11 if you want ttk (on a full auto) and its balanced because you have to play close, or, XP if you wanna play for sustained fire, safer but slower ttk, idek where the arn slips in there, but as of now i feel like the xp outclasses everything else, also, as melee, its reeeally pain to play against (but thats also just how it iz with melee yk)

[primal hound]

i dont use em, but i also play melee, i feel like i get more value out of barricading/defense tools and if i want that area denial tool ill just use c4, they both good, i just personally prefer the other

[tranquil rose]

It's just a too easy, safe and effective weapon atm. Works for basically anything with no drawbacks.

[primal hound]

yeah, great all rounder, light mains are feasting this season (which is honestly fair with how bad their meta was a while back) but guhh im not trying to get shredded in a milisecond from 20m or more away

[tranquil rose]

Yeah it be like that, specially with competent lights. The sadder part is the ARN is huge flop, it will only work if they overbuff it or nerf the XP a lot.

[primal hound]

just lean into: model for mid range combat, more ttk for cerb but better sustained fire, and cerb suck at medium range but great at point blank

[primal hound]

mhm def, i feel like they've been adding a bunch of ARs that all compete for the same role, the only dif is "look, minor gimmick" but its either an inconvenience (ARN) or just doesnt affect anything (SHAK), eitha way, arn and xp cant coexist so as long as they try to fill the same niche, because even if you try to balance them ones gonna dethrone the other, and if you try to change the ranges on em then you're either bothering the M11's balance or you're just having another beam across the map weapon which aint all too fun imo

[tranquil rose]

Sums up perfectly, it was a huge fuck up of a weapon

At least the minigun can be saved and the repeater is incredible

[primal hound]

id be fine with it on the circumstance they nerfed dash, but thats moreso because i personally hate dash 😭 i do feel like dash is a big copout and is the only way light melee becomes viable overall, i think they need to rework dash in gen, not nerf it, but at least make it so its not a must have

[primal hound]

Yeah def, i was honestly pretty happy with the minigun idk what the complaints were about, it seems fair to me, but i might just be strange

ignore all the random replies to feedback im verrrryrryrryryhry bored

[tranquil rose]

Now that I think about, is model 1887 currently this weak or we were just used how busted it was before? Or it's because of the dominant cerberus?

Cerberus was another weapon that recieve a damage buff for no reason at all lol

[placid slate]

i mean cerb got that damage buff because 80% of people were calling it hot ass, i kinda wonder if we reverted the buff would it be used much more than it was at launch since people are much more comfortable with it now

[tranquil rose]

People will use anything that's busted basically. Just reverting the damage might tone it down enough

It only needed a better spread and MAYBE the luxurious reload buff, the damage was overkill asf

[placid slate]

the dmage buff didnt really move any breakpoints, atleast without fire damage

[tranquil rose]

It didn't? I don't remember anyone complaining that it 1 shotted lights previously

Maybe people though it was so bad that they didn't pay attetion to it?

[placid slate]

it does 120 now, previously 108. dont think a single shot does enough DOT to kill in 1 hit

[tranquil rose]

It one shots light lol just tested it out in training camp

[placid slate]

and mfs were saying the fire DOT was bad

[tranquil rose]

The DOT was hella weird in the beggining of season 5, sometimes it proc'ed, sometimes it didn't.

But yeah, it shouldn't one shot lights like, at all.

[placid slate]

i mean if youre getting a full spread of pellets in their face youre gonna be close enough to quick melee in most situations

[spice vigil]

mediums complaining about DB killing them, but the cerb can kill 3 lights for every mag, compared to 1 for every DB mag

[tranquil rose]

Are people still complaining about DB? Wow, we’re Back to season 1

[gaunt terrace]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/GKFecjZYJY

[spark igloo]

I think both are valid complaints and one should not be ignored just because the other is also an issue

Tbf db is MUCH less of an issue than cerb but both can be taken in healthier directions

[short seal]

anyone got tips on what loadouts are best to deal with cl40? I just can't seem to find anything to counter it

[shell sonnet]

I was questioning if building smoke did the same thing

But that only happened once or twice which could have been a coincidence

WOOOO

GOO TECH

Time to chug a drink and get to work

Oh yeah, that was the main complaint i got about the early version

Missing basic stuff

[thick crypt]

Smoke machine. Throw it down like the proximity sensor and it continuously releases a small amount of smoke to the surrounding area.

[bold ruin]

goo plane

[placid slate]

its been somewhat consistent complaints about it since like season 4, went way up when season 5 dropped but is currently getting shafted due to appoh creating a bunch of sword complaints

[muted halo]

l feel like there is a middle ground to where it is now and was which should be the focus to making the weapon state be

[placid slate]

it was a damage buff of 1 point, unless they do a pellet count adjustment (which could honestly make it worse if it ends up with a tighter spread) there isnt a middle ground damage wise

[muted halo]

damage wise they could improve the fire instead of the pellet damage

[shell sonnet]

i dislike cerb 1-shotting lights (and that it just deals a ton of damage in general)

i think it should have been buffed in its fire aspect
maybe a spread buff to proc fire at a distance (or just buffing proc chance in general, so its not an almost carbon copy of model)

so you run in, hit multiple people with fire to soften them up, then hide while reloading

[placid slate]

the issue is that buffing the fire by any noticable amount either still one shots lights, makes it annoying as shit, or both

[shell sonnet]

easily spread fire damage, that on its own isnt thaaat lethal

good on its own if you play around it carefully, not too bad if you get rushed down, but shines when used with a coordinated team that makes use of weakened enemies

[shell sonnet]

1-shotting lights would only happen if its damage is buffed, which is not my intention
not even sure if thats possible, fire damage may be global, so shared with pyro barrels, pyro nade, etc.

[placid slate]

so how would you buff the fire then?

[shell sonnet]

but fire damage seems to only tike like 3-4 times, with most of the damage being on the initial hit
but fire duration can be different based on source afaik

[muted halo]

the total dot does how much right now? 34?

[placid slate]

minimum 30, probably more

[shell sonnet]

i need a minute, its likely im gonna say some bs because i miss some of the fine print

[placid slate]

fair, it is a somewhat difficult topic

[muted halo]

l also think it oneshoting light with the initial damage+dot is overtuned

[shell sonnet]

i dont want it to 1-shot lights at close range
so thats gotta be in there

maybe its easier if i dont try to stick to numbers, just ideas instead

[muted halo]

ok, then the first question comes, should it oneshot comboing with melee?

[shell sonnet]

had a problem with that on model, would be no different here
but it makes breakpoints a pain

i kinda wanna say half its damage, good duration buff
but then it becomes a pain for close range self defence due to low immediate damage, relying on slow dot, which will just get you killed
while also being more annoying to face due to the poking potential and regen delay

[muted halo]

honestly considering model has way more range, l think its fair for point blank+ melee to kill a light with cerberus, but it does that by just shooting xD

[muted halo]

could be a way to rewort it too

[shell sonnet]

it would be better for starters, gotta be good enough to start off on

ok, let me throw sh*t at a wall here

point blank, barely not enough damage to kill a light in 1 shot
put a decent amount of that damage in fire dot, that way you cant just spam shots on 1 target, but need to leech the fire damage a little, but can work without in a pinch
make fire way more likely to trigger at longer range, but increase direct damage fall off so its basically just the dot
drastically increase rof (for the mentioned jump in, spread fire dot on a team, jump out)

less strong in direct combat (hopefully still decent tho) and good for spreading debuffs among multiple enemies for your team to finish

what could the numbers for this look like?

[muted halo]

so they barely survive the dot right (the light one shot)

[shell sonnet]

Unless you qm, yes

But even then they get a little more time to live because the dot needs time to finish them due to the lower direct damage

[muted halo]

one problem l immediately notice with this aproach is that model and cerberus kinda overlap if both have decent range for a shotgun even if the damage is indirectly from dot, the main difference would be that is more effective to spread the damage

which is something l think they gotta be distinct

[shell sonnet]

Correct
That was part of my intention

Similar but not the same

One with sustain and direct damage (for easier self defence)
And one with better chip damage potential at range and debuff spreading

I mean, it might feel different enough

But what else can we do besides just nerfing it again?

[muted halo]

that is something l have been thinking for a while and still have no exact idea to how change it

l searched the dot total damage per shot and it is 31

and timer resets if you shot someone already on fire

[muted halo]

for your ideia something we need to know is how many pellets are needed to proc the fire damage, so spread should be adjusted for it to happen consistently where we want too

cerberus spread

[shell sonnet]

Example, sh1900 vs m26

Burst vs sustained

Works there, might work here

[shell sonnet]

Or just code it to always proc on any pellet hit up to a certain range hard cap

But that would add an invisible wall where it suddenly becomes a lot less effective

[shell sonnet]

Also consider, spread/pellet adjustment

[sand monolith]

cerberus just needs its buff reverted

and fire proc to be more consistent than it was pre buff

[muted halo]

about enough damage to oneshot light l heard people talking about changing pellet amount to 13x9 so 117+31 = 148 or 11x10 so 110+31 = 141 or even going to pre buff damage of 12x9 = 108+31 = 139

[sand monolith]

its a med shotgun which inherently breaks the boundaries of the class. it shouldnt be a weapon you can just bring into any match it should be something you have to build your team around, as it was before. its kind of insane they made model perfect in the same patch they buffed cerberus

[muted halo]

pre buff damage per impact shot with buffs to fire might suite this vision

[muted halo]

how often would you see someone using cerberus prebuff?

[sand monolith]

Not often which is a good thing

It should be a niche weapon that excels in team comps built around it. Which it was before

[muted halo]

l feel like for most old cerberus was just outclassed by model

[muted halo]

how would you build around with older damage?

[sand monolith]

Yes cause model was op. But once they nerfed model to an acceptable state they gigabuffed Cerberus

[sand monolith]

Heal beam, defib, movement gadget, defensive gadget.

One Heavy as your teams main source of damage that you are responsible for keeping alive and either another medium with a flexible weapon and demat or a light to play in their backline while you and the heavy push front.

Cerberus basically acted like a one off anti dive tool with big downtime. You couldn’t frontline by yourself with it but if you took space with your team or got dove you would be at an advantage

Run a support build to make yourself a target for dives so that you can win the fight

This worked very well aside from the inconsistent fire proc. Which is all that needed to be fixed

[grand turtle]

"Acceptable" state of never being used now :^)

[sand monolith]

Current Cerberus has none of this nuance and you can just solo push people

[sand monolith]

Model isn’t bad it’s like perfectly balanced. But Cerberus completely overshadows it so you’ll never see it

Without fighting a Cerberus team it’s actually pretty strong

[tranquil rose]

Or just revert the damage back from what it was and keep the spread and reload speed.

[muted halo]

the only thing l want for current model is a better reload if it is not gonna attain the same burst as before, which was too much damage

[tranquil rose]

Perhaps they a give very small buff to the dot damage to see how it performs.

If it's nothing absurd, then keep it. If it's too strong, just revert to the initial state and leave it be.

[sand monolith]

Yeah embark needs to get better at testing things instead of making a huge decision and leaving it that way

Cerberus gigabuff wouldn’t have been bad if a week or two after they were like “okay that was too much, let’s scale it back and iterate on it”

[muted halo]

sadly they never do that with any balance change 🤣

[sand monolith]

They did it with the model nerf to 99 damage and that was like it

AND IT WENT WELL

[tranquil rose]

They could simply test this out and check in 2 weeks how well Cerberus is performing. Seriously, it doesn't need months to change small numbers wtf

[sand monolith]

Yeah the worst part is how long it’s been an issue now

[tranquil rose]

And they can fucking do this cause ARN recieve hotfixes, so the fuckers are just lazing around basically

[muted halo]

yeah because 99 made the gun unplayable, so they probably saw it completely destroy winrate and usage rate. l have the assumption they look to raw states too much when doing balance

[sand monolith]

Nobody would have an issue with 1-2 week mini metas if they led to better changes faster

[muted halo]

totally

[shell sonnet]

Yes

[tranquil rose]

Like I don't undestand why minigun didn't also recieve hotfixes too

[sand monolith]

Yeah they do. They do this with overall class balancing too. HML has been meta for a bit in comp but in a pretty unhealthy way but they just look at the pick rates and say that’s good

[shell sonnet]

Im on board with old cerb + better fire proc

[sand monolith]

Cause it’s actually doing well in high rank

[tranquil rose]

No kidding, for real??? People are actually using in high rank?

And perfoming well?

[sand monolith]

Yeah it’s actually pretty decent with a super coordinated team. I think it needs a spread buff with a range nerf just for consistency but it is actually performing well in diamond and ruby

[shell sonnet]

On paper it is really strong
Drop a cashout, and melt anyone that tries to stop your mate from stealing

Either you get it or theyre dead and you win

[tranquil rose]

I guess the key thing here is "super coordinated team", it's one of those type of gameplays where it works better with people playing around it than by itself

[sand monolith]

The ability to say “yeah you’re not allowed to be in this room cause I’m here” is very strong but only if your teammates can capitalize off of it

[shell sonnet]

Flank heavy does work decently well in casual with other weapons
Despite being loud it should still work

[muted halo]

minigun shreds bubble shield which is quite relevant in higher tiers too, so the area denial is achievable

[sand monolith]

The only part I really hate about the minigun is that shooting at a light from 7-10m is literally just a gamble

[tranquil rose]

I guess the spread buff would be nice in terms of making the weapon more independant but also not gutting the team strat

[sand monolith]

Yea would allow you to secure kills more consistently without making the positioning any easier

[muted halo]

spread buff with fall off nerf would solve that

[tranquil rose]

THIS! YEAH! THIS MAKES ME SO FUCKING MAD.

Every fucking time I feel i'm tossing a coin when someone is not glued at my feet

[sand monolith]

Yeah it’s very obnoxious and not fun for either side of the interaction

[tranquil rose]

Hell, it's not hard to keep your aim at the target, but it's just...it's JUST REFUSE TO WORK sometimes

[oblique crypt]

Let's go gambling!

[muted halo]

that is something l believe everybody is annoyed when trying minigun at first impression, the spread makes it inconsistent/too random at range so they compare to a LMG and think its bad

[tranquil rose]

It just feel silly that around 10m you're pratically loosing to a class that has 200 less hp than you. It's just doesn't make sense

[muted halo]

also minigun requires you to do what people did with heavy in tf2+slide jump. run jump slide spin midair to have usable mobility

[gusty sedge]

Trying to run minigun as flank and ambush is a mistake imo. Everyweapon in this game works for ambush.
I've been using goo gun and c4 to set up firebases. Basically either force them to push you into the miniguns effective or range lay down suppressive fire and tank damage for your team while they get shots off.

That's not to say don't try flanking but exclusively playing the minigun that way is gonna lead to ineffectiveness

[tranquil rose]

Btw, thank you all for pointing this out. I was truly getting frustrated thinking I was fucking up somehow during trades. But I guess it was just the gun begin silly.

[sand monolith]

yea no worries :))

[shell sonnet]

Using a zipline/jumppad and then bhopping into someone fully revved up at breakneck speed is hilarious

[royal pier]

You know what, while I'm not for brigading this Discord demanding nerfs, I'm pretty firmly on the "fuck sword" side now.

Before some unoriginal dingus says "skill issue," my attitude comes from watching friends on controller lacking the sensitivity to reliably deal with Sword's ability to pierce through them and then almost immediately do so again.

This is coming from me, someone who advocates for hitscan nerfs so that melee and other non-AR/SMG/LMG/DMR weapons can be more relevant in the meta.

Sword is the easy mode of melee, all the other options require way more of the player to succeed.

[tranquil rose]

I guess at this point is very hard to ignore that sword is annoying as fuck. Even people who know how to deal with it think it's still annoying.

[royal pier]

M60 does this as well and still has enough ammo left over for the Heavy, with no spool up/bloom.

[little kayak]

Gun idea
Kel-TecPR57 pistol for medium
Loads via stripper clips, could function like a higher damage slower fire rate version of the light pistol.
I want more handguns for that class

[tranquil rose]

People said that one the best counters is to create some sort high ground, looks like the sword have some problems hitting anything above it.

[shell sonnet]

While true, you dont always have access to it

Sometimes youre just rushed down on flat ground, creating goo takes too long

[wind lintel]

db dash would be just as hard
I've seen some console players really high sense

[tranquil rose]

I mean, it makes sense for you not be able to counter something 100% of the time. But the main annoyance is that you basically have to create an intire strategy towards that require much more reaction and preparation than, lets say, hammer

[shell sonnet]

People are also complaining about db
But then db also needs aim, where as sword just requires you to sweep your miuse over them while you pass them

[unreal pond]

Imma copy and paste my reply from game feedback to here:

Nahhhhhhh that would absolutely kill sword. The issue with sword is a skill issue. It's incredibly strong in casual but weak in high elo rank because people understand how easy it is it counter sword. People always complain about it with it's just a skill issue on their part. They don't ever even fathom to maybe use one of the many ways to counter sword

Edit: I'm not saying that high rank players are the only ones capable of countering sword because of their skill compared to casuals. I'm saying that casuals tend to not give a single effort into actually thinking for a second on how to counter, which can be done quite easily. Just off the top of my head, lock bolt, keep distance (easiest one to implement), high ground, predicting their approach (rly predictable; don't just react but plan for it; judge the distance and anticipate where they end up), jump pad (between sword and you or jump in the air so sword can't hit you), goo gun, close range guns and not melee other than sword (melee tends to just be free kills for sword), wrench claw, and more. Sword is in a rly good place rn but PLEASE people just stop and think for a moment omg

[tranquil rose]

And BD is super unforgiving if you miss too

[potent glacier]

I have a suggestion, can I suggest it to you?

[atomic sigil]

Sword isn't that bad guys, just wanna say

Maybe we should direct this anger to the XP? the 1.4 second heavy killer?

[tranquil rose]

Like I said, all those things require you basically to know the light is coming with the execption of keep distance.

None of them will try to take you up front, they will do their best to flank

[shell sonnet]

How are you gonna keep distance if you dont know where theyre coming from?
Imo it still applies

[potent glacier]

Suggestion: I’m a big fan of The Finals and truly enjoy playing it on PlayStation 5. I would really love to see keyboard and mouse support added for PS5. This feature would greatly improve precision and comfort for many players, and make the experience even better for those of us who prefer this control style. Please consider adding this option—it would mean a lot to your console community and fans like me who genuinely love the game

[tranquil rose]

In my experience, is staying at a spot where you know you can't get hit from the back. A strategic spot where there isn't a blind spot. But just like the high ground strat, it's not always possible

[atomic sigil]

This is unfair for controller players

[unreal pond]

That's the problem. People in high elo get high above the cashout and scan for players then laser them. Ppl in casual just chill in the cashout so ofc you don't know where they are coming from if you don't look for them

[atomic sigil]

The difference between"thumb" and 'entire hand" is

massive

[potent glacier]

I prefer the keyboard, so what should I do?

[atomic sigil]

Get a PC.

I prefer a keyboard too, but using those is pretty much cheating in console lobbies.

[unreal pond]

Make it queue PC lobbies?

[atomic sigil]

People find workarounds.

[unreal pond]

True

[potent glacier]

I hope the game supports the keyboard. I love it so much.

[atomic sigil]

Its best for everyone if we keep them seperate

[shell sonnet]

Never said im not looking for them

But im sure you understand its unrealistic to assume everyone will always be 100% be able to predict where when and how they will be ambushed

[tranquil rose]

You will be eternally camping expecting the light to come in, that's super annoying

[shell sonnet]

And casual balance still matters

[potent glacier]

Knowing that I left the game because of the lack of the keyboard because I don't know how to play with the controller

[shell sonnet]

Kinda like how people said "oh just take it slow and watch for mines" back when they had 2 charges and 1 shot a light

Thats just not fun and overly punishing

So it was changed

[tranquil rose]

Well, this is the most important comment. While I understand many people say alot of unresonable things, you can't just left the casual to rot and be like "get gud bro" since this is terrible for business overall.

[unreal pond]

Oh another thing is that if you ambushed, don't be separated from your team and also pls don't be directly next to and def not Infront or behind them. Ppl compain about multihit but just don't allow yourself to be multihit. Also, if all of you are together, just shoot the sword if they ambush. It's that simple. They will die hella fast when taking fire from 3 people. Or you could just implement one of the many counters. You said you would have to know a light is coming but the close range weapons (cerb), jump pads, wrench claw are all common

[near crag]

whats the light meta rn?

[tranquil rose]

But that's literally every light ever if they try ambush 1v3. Any decent player won't try to dive in by itself or without a distraction first

[shell sonnet]

you win a 3v1, shocking
people also tried to justify nukes with "well, one of you baits out the shot, dies, and the other 2 kill the heavy"
that didnt work either

[unreal pond]

XP mostly

[unreal pond]

Bro the rpg takes away 2/3 of the lights health. I'm giving you so many easy counters but you are just ignoring them. It's so easy omg. This is exactly the problem. Ppl cannot fathom thinking for a second on how to counter

[shell sonnet]

i know of the counters, ever considered i want to have fun and not be stuck on the same 3 items the whole time?

people also said to just use reshaper when using cl so i can actually fight aps

[shell sonnet]

rpg arguably still deals too much damage, i wouldnt mind a damage nerf in exchange for an extra rocket or bonus structure damage

[unreal pond]

Do any of your teammate use a close range weapon, jump pad, wrench claw, lock bolt, rpg, goo gun, demat, dash, grapple?

Those are all pretty hard counters

[shell sonnet]

can i gurantee they will?
will my casual teammates who may not even use chat also be willing to coordinate and sweat their butts off?

[unreal pond]

You dont need one of them to carry it when you can do it yourself. These aren't just seofd counters but incredibly useful thing to have in general. If you are solo qing, you should be carrying one of these anyways

[shell sonnet]

consider

keep in mind, what if its used before and is on cooldown

[unreal pond]

I did. They are things you should have, not just for sword light, but in general

[shell sonnet]

so youre ignoring that i dont always want to use them, ok

[unreal pond]

Keep in mind, if a sword uses their 3 dashes and are in a mide of a fight or just got defibs or omg forgot glitch mines, they are straight up dead. It goes both ways

[tranquil rose]

I guess what we’re trying to say is the amount of work to just deal with a competent sword player is not comparable to the usual compentet light

[unreal pond]

What do you not wanna use there???

[unreal pond]

It's not much work. There's just a ton of options and you just gotta keep them in mind

[shell sonnet]

which is part of the problem
if you dont run the counters, youre fucked
if you do run the counters, theyre fucked

hard counters are not good for the game

[unreal pond]

No if you don't run any of those but let's be fr you or a teammate if gonna have at least one or a few, then KEEP DISTANCE OR HAVE HIGH GROUND. That is actually such a good counter and everyone in high elo uses it. That's what's the most annoying to deal with. I can't approach if they are guarding the only way to

[muted halo]

close range dps not the same

[royal pier]

Most players are casual.

[tranquil rose]

close range weapon -> Depends on the map and the vault point, and also what are the other enemies using.

Jump pad -> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Wrench claw-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Lock bolt-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Rpg-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Goo-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Demat-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Dash-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

Grapple-> I need to know where the light is coming from to react.

See what I mean?

[royal pier]

Not drastically different, either. Practically speaking, the theoretical DPS is way lower than what the chart shows.

[unreal pond]

Yeah but that's not the problem. The problem is casuals not thinking of any counters

[tranquil rose]

And if by any chance I fuck up not noticing the light coming, I'm losing 140 of my hp in seconds, perhaps even die before reacting.

[shell sonnet]

it seems youre pretty defensive regarding it based on that you use it

ever considered it getting a rework that removes its hard counters while making it more fun to face?

[atomic sigil]

Sword players fail 100% of the time when you stick with your team

[shell sonnet]

we know counters
we want to have fun, not to be hard stuck on the same 3 hard counters every other pro assures us will fix all our problems with their weapon

[royal pier]

The counters to a halfway decent sword are:

1. Have above average aim.

2. Have a Glitch Trap pre-placed.

3. Be by your team, but most players are solo in casual modes.

[tranquil rose]

Yeah, a light trying to 1v3 or fighting upfront will always fail. That's never the case even if the light is using mp5. They will ALWAYS wait for a oportunity to go, never the first to enter

[atomic sigil]

I'm so confused on how its such an issue

[shell sonnet]

i kinda dislike the glitch trap sword interaction imo, too strong against it

if you wanna use sword and it exists youre fucked
and if you wanna play something else, every sword user just yells at you to use it to make it balanced (well "balanced")

id rather have a decent chance as both, wether it exists or not

just like how they changed cl-40 to not be hard countered by aps

[muted halo]

true, but to do that you need to increase the counterplayer when you don't have such counter/ make it less potent, which most sword defenders don't want for some reason

[royal pier]

I'm all for countering, but I can't think of another weapon that demands you build specifically to counter it the way sword does.

I don't need to swap counter for any other melee. I'm a big melee supporter, but sword gives melee a bad name.

[shell sonnet]

im sure theyd love to not be hard countered by a few items
if they are really that big of a deal, they would give everything to have a good chance against it
if they dont, then its probably that they want to abuse it specifically against those that dislike using counters

[unreal pond]

close range weapon -> valid. don't pick close range weapon for light. I'm saying if you happen to have it

Jump pad -> there is a second window for you to react and place the jump pad down after getting hit

Wrench claw-> you are a big tanky boy and take 3-4 hits to die. claw them after the first it

Lock bolt-> place it at your feet after the first hit and rip sword. they can't realistically break it

Rpg-> again, all of these are under the assumption that the sword appeared from thin air. just shoot him after the first hit

Goo-> you got hella hp so after the first hit

Demat-> Demat below or through the wall after first hit

Dash-> need quick reaction here as sword and melee one hits but getting the melee off is hard, the best thing to do is hold s and dash backwards as the sword approaches

Grapple-> grapple up or away as soon as you are hit or see the sword. it's not hard to spot them

See what I mean?

[royal pier]

Glitch Trap in general is OP, so it countering Sword is kinda a "no duh" situation. It fucks over Heavy melee even more since they also require using their gadgets/spec to close the gap/pull.

[shell sonnet]

maybe the phrasing of the latter part is a bit extreme, but i think my point gets across

[muted halo]

you know heavy can be twoshot (140+40) by sword right now and phantom strike is a thing, right?

[tranquil rose]

There's 2 issues begin discussed here:

1. Casuals don't have the coordination to deal with the sword, so it's a constant curbstomp towards them which leads to super frustrating experience.

2. Like Ben said "can't think of another weapon that demands you build specifically to counter it the way sword does. "

[unreal pond]

Yeah and sword can't shoot the trap. Also turret is SOOOOO annoying for the same reason. You gotta get right next to it

[royal pier]

"Don't pick the melee weapon you want due to one of the three available builds being disproportionately good against it."

Light is the balance problem in this game.

[atomic sigil]

The game is just not a casual experience though, but we can't dictate buffs and nerfs towards how the newbies will percieve it.

[royal pier]

Glitch Nade.

[shell sonnet]

I can't think of another weapon that demands you build specifically to counter it the way sword does.
(cough cough, cl-40 vs aps, which was changed for a reason, sword should get similar treament imo)

wait, did i misread?

[tranquil rose]

It dictate towards what players think, and if players are complaning about the sword everyday then something is indeed wrong.

[royal pier]

Except if you don't at least somewhat accommodate new players, they leave.

Believe me, I've seen that happen many times cause I'm an ancient 33 year old dinosaur.

[shell sonnet]

meeeh, probably fine

[tranquil rose]

Anyone could've use nukes before, players said it was annoying as hell and they nerf it.

[unreal pond]

That's what I meant by 4 hit mb. And phantom strike is usually not active. Most ppl assume that it's constant but it doesn't work half of the time so not worth going for. It's a weird bug.

[tranquil rose]

Anyone could've use model, players sait it was absurdly opressive, they nerf it.

[muted halo]

when animation cancel make instant burst the combo logic just goes out of the window, the enemie does not see it as a 4 shot, its a 2shot from the heavy player perspective

[royal pier]

CL-40, outside of those couple of weeks where it was overtuned, was never strong enough to demand a specific counter.

[tranquil rose]

So player percpetion matters a lot, it doesn't matter how much you think "oh but this counter x", if enough of the playerbase is demading changes, they will change cuz they don't want to loose players

[unreal pond]

Annoying too but it's hard to get hit by it

[royal pier]

I meant use one to clear potential Glitch Traps.

[unreal pond]

Oh yeah cl-40 is the worst weapon to fight as a sword

[shell sonnet]

but yet it had one

imagine they left cl overtuned, but made aps a hard counter again

dont wanna use aps? youre f*cked
wanna use cl? also use data or youre f'cked

and everyone ends up with items they may not want to use

[royal pier]

CL-40 having increased self-damage means once the sword is in range, joever.

[muted halo]

also about phantom strike, it just needs to be removed, it does not matter if its hard or inconsistent, it breaks the dps that is intended. If someone can do it consistently they are gonna abuse it, not everybody has logic sense and just want advantage to win sometimes

[tranquil rose]

So whatever is if the sword is op or not, if there's counters or not, it's clear that each day people are getting more pissed at it each day. They will for sure change it, the REAL problem is...

WHEN?

[unreal pond]

It's temp but it's also not something I like carrying. It's not worth it. I'm using flashes rn bc it lets me approach in open spaces

[shell sonnet]

this was not supposed to be about cl vs sword specifically
just an example to my cause

[tranquil rose]

Cuz I seriously hope it doesn't become a model situation where it took 4 fuckin seasons to change it.

[unreal pond]

Yeah it should be removed. Not bc of the dps bc you can do the same with melee hits but just bc it's a bug and inconsistent at that to the point it's not worth using

[royal pier]

But that doesn't mean you lack options. Meanwhile for those fighting sword, you either have above average aim, bring Glitch Trap, or pray your team can work together to focus it.

[unreal pond]

Yeah ik it just reminded me

[shell sonnet]

fair enough

i do hope my example sheds a little light on why i think the way i do

[distant verge]

I think the reason people don't like sword lights is because you have to deal with them in fundamentally different ways then others, but like... yeah? I like it that way, I like that you have to deal with it in it's own specific way, if you could deal with every problem the same way then the gameplay would be super repetitive. The more different I have to deal with different opponents the more verity you get from match to match. I don't want to deal with a riot shield medium the same way I deal with a revolver medium. I don't want to deal with a cns/sledgehammer heavy the same way I deal with a minigun heavy, and I sure as hell don't want the sword light to be defeated the same way an xp light is defeated

[royal pier]

You don't need anything specific to counter Heavy melee, just good movement/spacing.

Light can hunt you to the ends of the earth and has ways to get the drop on you.

[unreal pond]

Ngl riot shield and duel blades should be able to block sword. I always feel kinda bad when fighting them bc there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop me

[tranquil rose]

And you begin the sole one with glitch trap everytime or have the above avarage aim it's a terrible experience. Cuz if you fuck up the aim, or not bring Glitch trap, you WILL loose cuz your team can't handle it.

Thus creating this overwhelming pressure everytime.

[shell sonnet]

db should be able to tho?
ive seen it block spear and sledge before

[muted halo]

the problem is not different play style, more so an 8 or 80 in performance if they get hardcountered or not, and when they are not being hardcountered they just pubstomp new players while being extremely annoying for people that can deal with them

[shell sonnet]

riot is just buggy as hell

[unreal pond]

Does it? I've never been blocked before

[distant verge]

You can hard counter a lot of things in this game

[royal pier]

Not to mention if you're, you know, not on Medium.

There's also the fact that in ranked you can't swap anything till next round. So you can use sword for the first two rounds, then swap for the final.

[shell sonnet]

maybe because light is speedy and they miss their timing
or due to sword m2 multi hit

no clue, but it can block spear and sledge

[tranquil rose]

Oh yeah they fucking lock your loadout, good fucking luck if you didn't bring anything else to deal with them

[shell sonnet]

give me some examples please, i take a little issue with that staement

[royal pier]

Imo you should get one swap per ranked match.

[muted halo]

same as Bad Hat Ben, give examples

[unreal pond]

Oh yeah that's another thing. You mentioned before that you can't tell if someone is using sword before the round but if you look at the silhouettes on the other teams, you can see their weapons and sword is hella recognizable

[shell sonnet]

my wording sucks today

[royal pier]

Start with a different weapon, swap.

[unreal pond]

Huh maybe it's because I can dash past them so it blocks it from the front but not the side or behind

[unreal pond]

Yeah nobody does that let's be fr

[shell sonnet]

might abuse it last round
or do shinanigens where they swap round 2 and youre screwed in round 3

[muted halo]

lingering AOE hitbox

[unreal pond]

Not a sword user

[shell sonnet]

reflect angle is a bit weird
and it blocks less damage from greater angle

[royal pier]

You speak for all of them?

[shell sonnet]

doesnt damage the attacker either iirc (if it does its greatly reduced)

[royal pier]

Yeah you can do either. Just bust it out when they least expect it, or have them expect it, swap to counter, then don't have it.

Only the nade launchers have even remotely that kinda mind game potential, and the APS isn't a hard counter.

[unreal pond]

Not all but for weapons like sword where it's a niche playstyle, if you queue as it, it's like 95% chance that you stay as it. Im saying this bc I do look at all the weapons during loading and every single time the sword does not change

[distant verge]

Turret beat by data reshaper or good gun
Invisibility beat by motion detector or sonar grenade
Mesh shield beat by basically anything melee weapon or glitch grenade
Sledge hammer beat by dash light unless used with winch claw
Not a lot but enough so if you prepare correctly it can pay off.

[royal pier]

I feel like a smart Light will queue up with a different weapon, then swap. Or, they bust it out in the last round, where the enemy doesn't expect it.

[distant verge]

Actually data reshaper kinda just hard counters a lot now that I think about it.

[unreal pond]

I mean it's a possibility but that would only happen in ruby lobbies

[royal pier]

I call Medium the "no fun button" build. Between reshaper and Demat, they can invalidate all defensive utility.

[unreal pond]

Yeah that's why I play light. It's the fun build

[royal pier]

For the one playing Light.

[unreal pond]

Or no fun when fighting a med triple stack who knows what they are doing

I either get 15 kills or 3 kills depending on the opponents

[waxen fiber]

triple med stack is not as scary a thing as it used to be, largely because of defib sickness

[royal pier]

Honestly Heavy v Heavy is the only match up I reliably enjoy at this point. Demat Medium just invalidates half the game, and Light either gets deleted or deletes you.

[distant verge]

Sounds like you just have a problem with class based gameplay, I'd recommend trying some tactical shooters

[royal pier]

Nah, just how they've balanced it.

[waxen fiber]

I remember the time when to kill triple med stack you had to kill at least 5 people with full hp

[unreal pond]

It's actually pretty balanced rn ngl

[shell sonnet]

i feel like with those, they either only soft counter 1 specific thing, leaving your build as a whole only soft countered for a limited time
or they have some other factor that allows you to prevent the counter (such as deactivating your shield and jumping away)

but i do see your point

[distant verge]

I agree

[royal pier]

If they made Mesh Shield block Winch, Heavy v Heavy would have the best match up possibilities.

Mesh would counter Winch, Winch would counter Charge, and Goo Gun is the wild card.

[shell sonnet]

and most of those could actually use some changes imo

dash invalidates heavy melee, so they got winch, either youre f'ed without winch or everyone else is when you do have it

recon tools/thermal dying cloak could be different, no idea how tho

[wind lintel]

winch was literally the counter to the then oppressive shield spam

[sullen bear]

Need something for the oppressive turret meta

[royal pier]

Cept with melee the winch will only give you one hit, and not the sledge overhead.

[wind lintel]

People were complaining about domes and mesh's so devs made it so winch could bypass it

[royal pier]

But they've nerfed Dome and Mesh several times since.

[royal pier]

Goo Gun.

[tranquil rose]

Goo and glitch nades

[sullen bear]

Now for the oppressive smoke meta?

[distant verge]

I'd also like to mention how different game modes can also affect your opinion on the balancing, like if I played power shift with 4 heavies and one healer riot shield medium, then we could wipe the floor with any kind of 5 light team, but in team death match or quick cash many lights would be actual hell to deal with. So I feel like we should specify which game mode we are having balancing issues with.

[tranquil rose]

Depeding even demat fucks them

[shell sonnet]

due to lunge sledge can keep up with heavies and mediums, lights die to a primary + qm combo

[royal pier]

I know the oppressive turret meta is a meme, but I have seen multi-turret comps recently and it is obnoxious lol.

[shell sonnet]

ive been getting 3 turrets on that one staircase building on PS seoul

[royal pier]

They can avoid the QM. For w/e reason many dash lights just give up after the winch.

[royal pier]

MGL32.

[distant verge]

I think weapons that deal additional arena damage should also deal additional damage to deployed things

[tranquil rose]

I wish the additional arena damage were better for some weapons. Sometimes is just a side gimmick nobody really uses

[distant verge]

The KS or minigun?

[royal pier]

Speaking of smoke, that needs a rework. It should be a solid sphere like Valorant to avoid your graphics affecting visibility.

Would probably have to remove thermal vision or make it a specialization.

[tranquil rose]

Both basically

[distant verge]

I was thinking, for the ks, would you increase ammo capacity, make it shoot faster, increase reload speed, or make it break walls in 2 hits

[tranquil rose]

Break Wall 2 hits

[royal pier]

100% accuracy when aiming.

[royal pier]

Also, give irons as an option.

[tranquil rose]

I mean, for the gun overall or to deal with the desctruction arena gimmick?

Cuz for the overall I think they should just give up on the projectile part and make it a full precision shotgun, with irons

[muted halo]

l feel like KS destruction is fine, its just the damage of the gun that is the issue, it depends way too much on winch + melee combos to do reasonable dps

[royal pier]

2 shots are probably fine, but I'd rather have the accuracy if we're talking general buffs. 100% accuracy and 2 shots to destroy might be too much. It would invalidate sledgehammer.

[tranquil rose]

I mean, they could tried out and see how it peforms though

[royal pier]

Which was just heavily nerfed with the animation cancel change.

I'm fine with that in concept, but they shouldn't let you use winch until the pump animation finishes. Atm if you winch .01 seconds too early, you basically pump twice.

[muted halo]

and with the changes of the winch forcing rechamber for KS and SA, l feel like it needs a small damage buff to reach the breakpoints of 105 damage per shot with winch doing 1 damage instead of 5

[shell sonnet]

my ks-23 experience in a nutshell

[tranquil rose]

But the whole projectile thing doesnt suit the weapon at all, it feels unecessary. Let it be a hitscanner already

[royal pier]

I like the challenge, but the speed of the projectile is awkward. It's easier to lead the bow/Throwing Knives

[shell sonnet]

i think it should share its bloom with cl-40

100% accurate unless youre actively bunny hopping

[muted halo]

if it is going to be projectile it needs to be accurate simple as that, but for some reason since its inception players say that to embark and they never gave it 100% accuracy

[muted halo]

this too

[royal pier]

Embark seems to hate the idea of anything that's not the LMGs/ShAK-50 having 100% accuracy.

On Heavy.

I'd take a slower slug in exchange for 100% aiming accuracy.

[shell sonnet]

same

[royal pier]

The 1887 gets perfect accuracy while jumping, I feel like either both or none should get it.

[shell sonnet]

i can work around downsides, i cant work around random inconsistency

[shell sonnet]

no, there is a difference
model gets accuracy by volume

with that many pellets, even if the spread is bigger, some will connect and deal chip damage
ks-23 doesnt have this luxury
it is hit way harder by it than 1887 ever would be

[royal pier]

If they nerfed the AR/SMG/LMG dps, I'd say neither get 100% movement accuracy. Otherwise, both should be accurate while moving.

[muted halo]

accuracy and this is all it needs to be balanced/viable imo

[royal pier]

You have to hit center mass to get good ttk on the 1887 now, though. Functionally, they and the KS aren't that different except the 1887 is just easier.

[shell sonnet]

but you can still kill someone with 2-4 close misses/chip damage shots
with ks a slight miss is a total miss

[royal pier]

I used to be all for movement penalties on the 1887, but if the hitscan full autos deal less damage, then it balances out.

Or they give the ARs and LMGs movement penalties and make SMGs (really just the MP5) have dogshit damage drop-off.

[royal pier]

Yeah, but you probably die then.

[shell sonnet]

and ks is different in that regard?

[royal pier]

That's why I said it should have 100% aiming accuracy regardless of jumping.

[shell sonnet]

are we talking past eachother?

[royal pier]

You mentioned that KS-23 should only be 100% accurate when not jumping. But imo if the 1887 is always accurate even from the hip, why does the KS-23 need that limitation?

[shell sonnet]

aaaah, i think i get it, hold on let me double check

[royal pier]

I'm kinda liking the idea of giving the ARs and LMGs movement penalties now.

[muted halo]

ks has way more range then the model

[royal pier]

The drop off is still harsh, and it's a projectile.

[muted halo]

even if theorical due to the projectile nature

[royal pier]

The "buff" to the drop off didn't even change shots to kill in most cases from what I've seen.

[shell sonnet]

fair, i mostly suggested it that way to avoid mega complaints and because it does "make sense" but it doesnt really matter to me
i mostly want 100% accuracy on ads and way better bloom on hipfire

[muted halo]

jumpad and shot with ks on someone distracted then combo with rpg, or the other way around, maybe that is why he does not want 100% accuracy in the air. model would need to be quite close to land for example. not saying l agree just trying to get why

[royal pier]

Doing that would be more impressive than anything.

[shell sonnet]

no, not my intention
i pretty much do not care, it was just gut feeling

[royal pier]

Hitting a fairly slow projectile on a jump pad then quickly swapping to land another projectile would be more impressive than just using an AR/LMG.

What if they took the system they have for the sniper where it's only a projectile at range, but put it on KS-23?

So it's hitscan at like 8m or less, then it becomes a projectile.

[shell sonnet]

might make it akward to use

[muted halo]

l remenber some old clips l got for killing midair lights using dash on jumpads with 2 ks shots, l bet the guy either raged or though l was hacking since he left the game right after. L bet a lot of people don't expect players to get consistent with projectile weapons

l am down for 100% accuracy KS

[royal pier]

It's more about reducing server jank. It's already almost a hitscan up close, but it'll get fucked my the server due to desync.

Or they just make the slug hitbox a bit bigger. The old stun gun hitbox was bigger than the KS-23 slug.

There's a ton of options. The end result I want is reliability. If I miss, I want it to be because I missed.

[muted halo]

hitbox size increase could be a good way to increase consistency with it, but gotta be small imo

[royal pier]

Not RNG.

[shell sonnet]

it wasnt a single pin point accurate shot?
it had aoe?

[royal pier]

Not home atm, but you could be off the enemy by a bit and still hit with stun.

[muted halo]

it was a hitscan cylinder

[royal pier]

That's why even bot lights were hitting stun.

[muted halo]

yep

[shell sonnet]

doesnt help unless it gets better accuracy

[royal pier]

They would miss most their mag, but rarely the stun.

[royal pier]

https://tenor.com/view/thank-you-por-que-no-gif-23322568

[shell sonnet]

the what

[royal pier]

"Why not have both?"

[muted halo]

the why not both meme

[shell sonnet]

something something why not btoh?

[shell sonnet]

not complaining, just shouldnt be too easy
too drastic changes will prevent it from being implimented or get complaint to death after

[royal pier]

Slightly bigger, 100% accurate when aiming. At the end of the day it's still a projectile.

Cause at this point anything not an AR/LMG/SMG in the meta (that isn't sword) is welcome.

[muted halo]

if l had to choose l would go with 100% accurate, although hitbox size would be felt for every tier of play using KS, so even bad players would hit more shots with it, and hitbox size also gives more consistency in closer ranges, small deviation would prevent it being used to snipe

both would be nice if they would do it

[ember condor]

guys cerberus or famas

[quartz token]

Brother what is your profile picture

[vague verge]

"guys pickup truck or sports car?"

they do different things

[ember condor]

for kills

[strong heath]

What's the difference between the xp and the m11?

[restive plover]

M11 kills faster but xp has better range. Xp54 is superior overall due to the versatility.

[strong heath]

okay thanks

[polar trout]

@restive plover

Or which ones on shift rn (you're online so I'm assuming you?)

[restive plover]

https://tenor.com/view/red-x-teen-titans-energy-gif-7108537128132584338

[keen turtle]

'member when Cloak briefly lasted 45 seconds or something when standing still? I havent liked it as much since that nerf

[crystal garnet]

If the hammer can no longer deal damage to multi enemies at once, neither should the sword. fucking nerf that shit

[vague verge]

Xp54 makes me wish I was just playing med, m11 makes it leak a little

My glorious king m11

Also I realized that reduced ROF on manually operated and semi auto guns only really hurt casuals as they are more likely to have worse aim, and thus suffer more from a punishing ROF

This applies to litterally fucking everything

[slender bear]

If we have two light submachine/machine guns, two assault rifles, two snipers, two pistols, two melee weapons, and two shotguns, should our next one be a new thrown weapon like the knives?

[ashen hawk]

Guys we should buff the sword range to 500m when its doing its lunge attack, because "sword is super weak you cant do anything with it without evas dash".
yeahh... /s if it wasnt obv

[tawny current]

light should get a throwing axe that one shots everyone but only for a day

[agile storm]

Why can't the pike get some more sights man 😦

[vague verge]

Davey crocket

[royal pier]

I would say it's because limiting optic access is a way of balancing weapons, but clearly Embark doesn't give a shit about that.

[slender bear]

Light meta goes nuclear

[vague verge]

I think they just forgot lmao. Regardless, sights are not how you balance weapons. R6 is a great example of that

[tiny geyser]

I just noticed today that they changed the recoil patter on the famas.
When did that happend?!

[royal pier]

That was literally how they got people to play underused ops what you mean? They'd give the op scope for a bit then remove it once people realized it was good.

[vague verge]

Its a bandaid fix. Get people to use them by actually making them good

Warden was an underwhelming operator with an underwhelming kit. Giving him a 1.5x didn't make him any better, it just made people notice him. People performed well with him because the game was 8 years old and people were just good in general

[royal pier]

And they used them because Ubi put the shiny on it.

[vague verge]

Didn't make them any good

[royal pier]

They literally released charts every season that, on average, disprove that.

[vague verge]

Because the game is a decade old, the general skill of the player base is good enough that they can perform well with any operator. All the sight did was make them notice him

[royal pier]

Zoom optics/clear optics make using the guns easier.

It's not the The Finals where a third party crosshair can overcome bad optics/irons.

I'll shit on Siege all day, but they at least know how to do recoil in a way that isn't stuck in 2000.

[vague verge]

Unless there is something obstructing your fov like the high noon hammer, a crosshair is a crosshair. The holosight's crosshair is genuinely horrendous and hardly better than the pike irons, but people still use it

The issue with the pike's irons could probably boil down to being a placebo

[royal pier]

It'd be a balancing tool if they didn't make the bullets always come from the center of the screen.

It's such a lame system.

[spark igloo]

famas is the only hard meta ar and xp is the only hard meta smg. The rest are shotguns or dmrs

[agile storm]

I prefer Irons over the scope anyday

[spark igloo]

thanks discord for setting me on a message from 6 hours ago?

[vague verge]

Also the holosight's profile is also complete dogshit

[spark igloo]

which one are you talking about, the old fcar one?

[royal pier]

I'm going to say that the SA1216 is below the ShAK-50 and M60 now with the damage nerf and the winch animation cancel fix.

So that's one shotgun gone, and an AR/LMG taking over.

[spark igloo]

sa12 is still the best weapon on heavy (although that nerf was dumb and the weapon feels so much worse)

[royal pier]

SA1216 is still good, but if we're talking sweaty, probably not what you want.

[royal pier]

Hence why it's not the best.

The loss of the animation cancel is understandable, but they did it in a jank way.

Don't let the player cancel the barrel rotation or the KS-23's pump action with the winch. If you're off by a single frame, you basically do the animation twice.

Why remove most of the cancels, but not the winch one? Weird.

[spark igloo]

it is tho

only weapon that's been nerfed to half of what it was and is still best in slot

[royal pier]

ShAK-50 hits hard without any jank, and more range.

[spark igloo]

still no sa12

[royal pier]

Time will tell. I say the SA1216's time is over.

[spark igloo]

time has told, it's still just sa12

[royal pier]

We are barely into the season come on.

[spark igloo]

winch sa12 is better than winch shak, so is mesh sa12

[abstract kestrel]

I don't think so, the ttk is very similar, but shak is much more versatile and reliable.

Shak is better for eating shields and finishing off distant foes. Plus dash lights can avoid a throngling from wench sa12 but not the wench shak

[spark igloo]

dash lights cant avoid winch sa12?

its still just a kill unless you winch them a centimeter from cover

sa12 may feel miserable but it still applies damage and pressure that no heavy weapon besides sledge can, although without the drawbacks of being a melee

[abstract kestrel]

They can spam back diagonal dash and they'll be out of effective range after only eating one shot, you have to land a split second shot predicting the right back or left back dash, otherwise they wriggle out.

[spark igloo]

u get two off without a dash going off, unless u winch them point blank but that might still be 2

[abstract kestrel]

Might be latency dependent tbh

[spark igloo]

more latency gives you more leeway

[abstract kestrel]

As the light or as the heavy?

[spark igloo]

as the heavy

[abstract kestrel]

I've noticed I only get one shot in the time they start dashing, the second one come out mid-dash when they try to get away

[spark igloo]

actually if u wait for winch to play out all the way it might be one burst before they dash, but if you shoot early you get 2 off and leave them on one

[abstract kestrel]

I stopped using Sa12, despite it being my main for the longest time, and I never abused the rechamber skip out of principle, only shield juggling. I feel like it's in a really bad spot atm.

I think it needs its spread reduced, or an extra bullet in each chamber, otherwise shak is doing very similar work in terms of burst damage up close, but it has the benefit of still being able to chip and supress at a distance.

[spark igloo]

idk usually if I winch a light it just dies

[abstract kestrel]

I find that lights cannot escape me spraying them down with shak after winching them

[spark igloo]

it just needs it's nerfs reverted, it was an extremely strong weapon but it was like the perfect strong weapon, winch was the only thing making it unhealthy

[abstract kestrel]

My issue with sa12 atm is that it's just not consistent. You can get fucked by rng pellets and then die during the rechamber.

at anything but point blank this is just the sad case.

[spark igloo]

the pellets arent rng

its a fixed spread lol

[royal pier]

It's a 3 shot kill on Light now. If they're Dash, easy escape.

[abstract kestrel]

Fixed spread is nice, thank god. But, still, that makes the effective range like 5 meters.

Even engagements within buildings usually happen further than that.

[spark igloo]

its 3 shot to kill but its very forgiving. you can get 2 meatshots for free with winch stun so you basically just have to hit 2 pellets after

[abstract kestrel]

At that point, it's hard not to argue "just bring sledgehammer, it doesn't need to reload and it can go through walls."

[spark igloo]

sledge is really good but it suffers from requiring winch to perform

sledge on cooldown is still very oppressive but it suffers from being a melee

[abstract kestrel]

Sledge shield is also good, just have to work with your team and acknowledge that you're there to scare people and take space.

[royal pier]

Or you just use the ShAK-50 and crouch after landing the winch and kill them almost instantly.

[spark igloo]

shield sledge just gets kited too easily

[spark igloo]

kill them almost instantly vs kill them almost instantly

[abstract kestrel]

That's the nice thing about teams being made of 3 ppl.

[spark igloo]

sure its 3 people but that 3 people can become 2 people if the team can effectively ignore the sledge

its pressure but it's not enough to be worth it

[abstract kestrel]

Shak is more consistent, and can be used to finish off distant targets, suppress, etc. Hard to argue for sa12 in its current state when shak is a thing.

[sand monolith]

Winch shak is kind of a throw loadout ngl

[abstract kestrel]

You have a shield to share with your team, the enemies can't just ignore that if they're being shot through it

[abstract kestrel]

There's better options than winch claw, especially since lockbolt exists.

[spark igloo]

glitch or break the shield and the fight is a 3v2

its suprisingly not a terrible loadout but there is just so much better

[abstract kestrel]

Gr8 b8 m8

[spark igloo]

if your only value in a fight is a 750 hp shield then you probably arent providing enough value

[sand monolith]

Is the argument that mesh sledge is good

[spark igloo]

that mesh sledge is good

[abstract kestrel]

My arguement is that shield sledge is better than sa12

[sand monolith]

Mesh sledge is awful

SA12 is the best weapon on heavy even post nerf

[abstract kestrel]

Alright Imma head out lmao

[sand monolith]

👍

[royal pier]

M60 is also good if you wanna sacrifice a bit of DPS for capacity. Crouching after the winch with it is also good.

[sand monolith]

In high ranks m60 is really only great in a comp with two heavies

[royal pier]

One has range and no jank.

[spark igloo]

the only jank sa12 has is the one where it looks like your pump animation finished when it hasnt

which is avoidable because it's a consistent thing

[abstract kestrel]

Ended my relationship with pike, repeater is my new bf

[royal pier]

Get the timing wrong by 0.01 seconds and now you're doing the animation again.

[sand monolith]

Don’t get the timing wrong

[abstract kestrel]

To be fair, the ui does change to tell you when that timing is.

[royal pier]

Or just use the ShAK-50

[sand monolith]

Then don’t get your reloading timing wrong

[royal pier]

I thought it was weird people weren't using it more to begin with.

[sand monolith]

Both weapons have timing animations for efficiency ^_^

And shak is more punishing to mess it up with

[royal pier]

I'm not saying the SA1216 is bad, just that the ShAK-50 is nuts.

[sand monolith]

Both are very good weapons yes

[abstract kestrel]

That's just not true, you can miss half your mag and still kill medium or light.

If you miss one shot with sa12, you're going to be rechambering it

[sand monolith]

Shak is just beaten out mostly cause mesh is more prominent in the meta

[sand monolith]

I’m talking about punishing for messing up the animation timing, not missing

[royal pier]

You can force the shield up from greater range with the ShAK-50 than the SA1216.

[spark igloo]

so dont get the timing wrong

[sand monolith]

You aren’t forcing shield

[royal pier]

Or just winch them and win that fight.

[sand monolith]

You don’t run winch with shak

[royal pier]

I do, works great.

[spark igloo]

tbf shak is one of the better winch weapons

easily the best winch auto

[royal pier]

Crouch hipfire is accurate for like half the mag.

[sand monolith]

It is but it’s not what you should run into a mesh meta. Mesh slides back and you hit shield with 2 shots and now you’re forced to reload

Best winch auto is a bar that’s in hell

[royal pier]

Don't miss

[sand monolith]

That’s not what I’m saying

[royal pier]

See? I can be that bitch too

[sand monolith]

No you can’t. Because you aren’t describing user error

If you were you’d actually have a point

[royal pier]

Ping them, see 11m, Winch.

I don't trust the 12m ping.

[sand monolith]

You are misunderstanding the point entirely. This is after pulling them in

[spark igloo]

you're using this wrong

oh trent already said that

[sand monolith]

lol

[royal pier]

Nope

[sand monolith]

Ben you should spec pro scene and see how it’s played

[royal pier]

Stupidly from what I've see.

[sand monolith]

I think it would be rather eye opening

[royal pier]

Also what pro scene they ain't making a living on that.

[spark igloo]

does he know?

[sand monolith]

Does he know

[sand monolith]

How so

[royal pier]

One tournament does not a pro scene make.

[sand monolith]

Does he know

[spark igloo]

he doesnt know 😔

[royal pier]

You miss the word "living?"

[sand monolith]

He doesn’t know 😔

[spark igloo]

I caught that dw

[royal pier]

This shit ain't being an esport.

Dumb af to waste money on it.

[sand monolith]

He’s blissfully unaware

[royal pier]

Stfu

[sand monolith]

How so

[royal pier]

I know, it's just not pro.

[sand monolith]

.

[royal pier]

They refuse to get creative and just copy the same shit from each other.

[sand monolith]

That’s literally just not true

[spark igloo]

if this is what you believe then you have literally no experience with the high level community in this game

[sand monolith]

Comp players are always trying to force different metas lmao

[spark igloo]

people try new metas, develop new strats, and put them into play literally constantly

[sand monolith]

^^

[royal pier]

Not what I saw

[sand monolith]

What patch was the tournament you watched on

[royal pier]

Bunch of mirror matchups. Show me clips.

[royal pier]

You're making the claim, not me. Show proof.

[sand monolith]

You actually did make the claim first that it was all copying

[royal pier]

Show me the ProFax.

[royal pier]

And you claim otherwise. Show me.

[sand monolith]

Seeing as how you’re the only person of the 3 of us that doesn’t stay in the comp circle at all I don’t see why we would be showing proof first

[royal pier]

Cause the comp circle is a joke lol.

[sand monolith]

That’s not really an argument

[spark igloo]

I thought the argument here was that pros arent creative and dont try new things. A lot of games do end up being mirror matchups because that is what has proven to be best, especially if its a higher stakes game like the ones you've probably seen. Meanwhile they do try new things, just not in these games. Which is your point

[sand monolith]

I think I am going to trust the players I see testing team comps in private matches daily over the guy theory crafting comp loadouts from silver

[royal pier]

I used to follow Siege cause it actually mattered because it influenced the game the rest of us played.

[sand monolith]

Sounds like copy cats to me….

[royal pier]

Fishing didn't even make it to general use.

[sand monolith]

Also yes, nobody is bringing their experimental team comp into a tournament

[royal pier]

Yeah and knowing what stats the pros used let you be aware of what someone might copy.

[sand monolith]

Glad that’s not how this game plays :-)

[royal pier]

Ah so it'll be mirror match-ups of "safe" but boring strats.

[spark igloo]

if u want an example, a lot of higher level players are trying out minigun right now, with mixed success

a strat with minigun involves replacing pad rpg with a pad minigun, as you dont have time to both spin up and fire an rpg

while I dont believe minigun is the next sa12, I do believe that it has a stong niche that it excels in very well

[sand monolith]

^^

[sand monolith]

This is how every game plays lmao. Nobody is bringing a team comp into the big game unless they’ve proven it can work. Thats just a dumb idea

The difference with finals is that teams are always looking for new things to put through testing

[royal pier]

So literally exactly what I said earlier?

How does people in private matches disprove what I said at all if they end up going back to the same comfy strats?

[sand monolith]

Because it repeatedly actually changes???

[spark igloo]

can you clarify your point, because from what I originally understood your point was "pro players never try new things and are uncreative"

[royal pier]

Siege Majors would be hype af because people would save strats for pivotal moments.

[sand monolith]

This happens in finals

[royal pier]

Clip pls

[spark igloo]

this does happen but im pretty sure that seige has a much wider range of viable comps, loadouts, and strategies

poor balancing in this game has led to the same handful of things being viable at any given time, giving little room for real experimentation

[royal pier]

This game has a shit ton of opportunities, but they aren't willing to take the risk.

Anti-grav Cube is amazing, don't see it.

[spark igloo]

because the risk is not worth the reward in the play we are talking about

[royal pier]

Data Reshaper is slept on.

[sand monolith]

Data reshaper is literally used in comp

[royal pier]

How do you know if no one takes the risk lol?

[sand monolith]

Reshape was nerfed BECAUSE of comp

[royal pier]

Good, finally.

[sand monolith]

“Finally”

Does he know?

[spark igloo]

because people DO and it ends up not being worth it, just not in these high stakes games

[sand monolith]

This is also true

[royal pier]

No? They said why.

Turret.

[sand monolith]

The meta is usually very stable because of bad and slow balancing

[royal pier]

Also, I do not give a single, solitary fuck about comp, and I shouldn't have even let us get on it.

[sand monolith]

They also originally nerfed model because Rob was in a comp discord and watched the scene being dominated by model. Guess what they didn’t put in dev notes.

They will never say “we are nerfing this because of comp” because it would cause chaos in casuals

[royal pier]

Cause I was was talking generally.

[sand monolith]

Restate your point for clarity

[royal pier]

It's reminding me of the lame ass "KS-23 is good because one dude used it well in a tournament that got 300 views" convo I had with someone several seasons ago.

[sand monolith]

KS was genuinely good in season 3 lol

[royal pier]

Not for your average player.

[sand monolith]

Sustain damage on heavy was completely unviable. SA12 was better but KS was probably the 2nd best weapon on the class

[royal pier]

Hence the like 4 changes since.

[sand monolith]

The 4 changes since have come from the meta shifting around it. Weapons got stronger since then and it was left behind

I played KS the whole season in world tour when I wanted to relax cause it was fun and strong

[royal pier]

I do think they are starting to balance more around a small handful of elitists with a heightened sense of self-importance, and that's bad. This isn't Valorant.

[sand monolith]

You’re not wrong in the sense that they’re taking some advice from comp players who don’t understand what they’re talking about. But balancing well around high elo isn’t a bad idea

[spark igloo]

https://youtu.be/bdBMZbOOJeM?si=F5J3bwE2gJY_Ou6z&t=225 here is an example of this. This was after double stabs were removed from dagger but I found a workaround (this has since been patched as of s4), which I shared with Kael. She then used this in a CASH tournament involving some incredible players. We would go on to win third place, giving us a chunk of the prize pool. This would not have been possible without this tech that I discovered.

[royal pier]

The esports scene has no room for a game like this.

[sand monolith]

Not really true

[sand monolith]

Also entirely true

They call me the conversationalist wow

[royal pier]

This game has a metric shitton of RNG. Do you think people are going to drop from pro Rivals/Valorant/CS/whatever to play for money in a game where a small piece of debris can block your steal and cost the match?

[sand monolith]

That’s not rng

[royal pier]

Oh the game picked a bad spawn, guess we lose.

[sand monolith]

That’s why the comp community is bitching about spawns yes

[spark igloo]

the main things I'd consider rng in this game are spawns and the bugs, both of which are fixable

[sand monolith]

And random spread where it doesn’t belong

[royal pier]

Oh the building exploded so violently that even a 50 series card drops frames.

[spark igloo]

again, managable

[royal pier]

They gonna restart rounds like Siege?

Oh wait, not round based.

[spark igloo]

wait until you find about best of x games

[sand monolith]

That’s not an inherent issue that isn’t fixable though. Nobody is saying the game in its current state should be an esport.

[spark igloo]

game doesnt have to be valorant levels of esports but it has the potential to go far if embark really set to it

[royal pier]

Point being, the game is inconsistent, and the main game mode is fine for regular play, but no way in hell would I commit the time to play for money.

[sand monolith]

Even embark said the game in its current state isn’t ready for esports lol. Thats why s7 and s8 will be focusing on a lot of bug fixes

You are arguing against nobody rn ngl

[royal pier]

Or they create their own niche of casual play that is currently underserved atm.

[spark igloo]

they struck that niche already, why not expand on both

[sand monolith]

This is why the only people who currently play comp are people who fucking adore the game. It’s not esports ready now and everyone knows that including devs

[royal pier]

It's effort better spent on capitalizing on the game's strengths, not trying to follow a trend.

[sand monolith]

Esports is not a trend lol it’s actively dying

Esports was a trend ages ago

[royal pier]

A competitive version of the game is one like ranked that strips out the events that are a core part to the rest of the game (fuck low grav tho).

[royal pier]

That makes chasing it even sillier, if true.

It's not, but if it were.

[sand monolith]

I think the developers just like the idea of esports lol. Nothing really wrong with that. Game definitely has potential

[royal pier]

Like, isn't Rivals pro scene kicking off huge? I lost interest in it but still it's massive.

[royal pier]

It is when the balancing starts making it a priority.

[sand monolith]

Yes it is. Because the game has nearly a million concurrent players across all platforms. Any competitive game with that big of a playerbase will succeed in esports

That’s not a trend though

[sand monolith]

Balancing well for high elo is good idea regardless of esports

[royal pier]

Ok so it's not dying then. I assume Valorant and LoL are fine.

[royal pier]

No it's not. Not with this population.

[sand monolith]

It’s not a population thing

A well balanced ranked meta means items are well designed. Stat balancing beyond that barely affects casual

Balancing for casual means design flaws slip by and affect ranked

It also means stat changes affect ranked negatively when casuals would be happy regardless as well as items are designed well

The key balancing well for ranked

[royal pier]

It is. I've been around. Seen this happen before.

Fairly small game caters to the vocal top percentage of players, alienates the average player, new players get their ass kicked.

[sand monolith]

A lot of games blindly listen to comp players over game designers and those games end up with dying casual scenes

Yep you’re describing what I just said

Fortnite was a big one that did this and they’ve had to spend tons on getting casuals back

Listening to pros is not balancing for high elo. Pros don’t know what they’re talking about a lot of the time

They’re usually very biased towards metas that they enjoy or see the game from the viewpoint of their favorite loadout

[tranquil rose]

Majority of the playerbase don't know what they're talking about haha

[sand monolith]

Yes

When studios listen to game designers over players for balancing, games get better

[tranquil rose]

This is why feedback + statics are important, to have some sort sensous to understand what the fuck is the actual problem

[sand monolith]

Yes very

Cod also learned not to listen to pros with mw3 recently

Game was massively centered around movement tech that only a vocal minority care about

Sold like ass

Then they didn’t do that next time and tuned back the marketing towards sweats

[royal pier]

Doesn't mean they won't leave the game over something they dislike or find unenjoyable.

They took ages to change the 1887 because their stats said it was fine.

[tranquil rose]

This is why is important player feedback too!

[sand monolith]

That was mostly cause nobody played it until s4

Model was only abused in high elo until then

[royal pier]

Wait I said this about "pros" and you were on their said before.

Istg you're just a reflexive contrarian.

[sand monolith]

Not even high elo cause TA. So just comp

[tranquil rose]

And yeah, I will always think a company will always works towards keeping their playerbase. At the end of the day, a game is still a product that needs to be enjoy by as many people as possible to sell

[sand monolith]

Where? I literally agreed with you about this earlier

[royal pier]

You were talking about people running customs and shit and taking their word as gospel.

Play ranked/wt yet?

[sand monolith]

.

[royal pier]

I'm saying ignore them for the most part.

[sand monolith]

This is something completely different. Pros understand meta and how to abuse the game. They don’t know how to fix it

[royal pier]

Not just some.

[sand monolith]

Ignoring pro scene completely is a bad idea but yes their word should just be taken as context for what’s annoying them

[royal pier]

And high tier ranked in this game is a small % of the game. If this was a game like Valorant or CS where ranked is the main focus of the game, sure, but it's not here.

[sand monolith]

Balancing well for ranked is going to appease casuals as well

[royal pier]

Atm Ranked is just a boring WT.

[sand monolith]

As seen exceptionally well in overwatch currently

[royal pier]

Not really. The time dedication/skill differences will make different weapons meta.

[sand monolith]

And cs but that game sucks and I hate tac shooters

[royal pier]

For example, Sword.

[sand monolith]

Different metas are fine as long as they’re well designed and shifting

Sword is a very bad example of this. Light as a whole is

[royal pier]

But one matters more. If they can balance it for both, cool, but just like trickle down economics, it doesn't work for balance.

[sand monolith]

Because light specs are terribly designed

[sand monolith]

It literally does though.

[royal pier]

On that we agree. Sick of its existence fucking up the balance.

[royal pier]

We just earlier talked about how we don't see high level strats showing up in regular play.

[sand monolith]

I’m not saying the meta is going to be the same between skill tiers. It’s not supposed to be

But as long as it’s well designed, it won’t negatively affect casual if it doesn’t overstay its welcome

Balancing for casual will negatively affect comp even if everything is well designed. Because less skill intensive playstyles will dominate the meta

[wintry quest]

I have been wondering, are arrows meant to be so bad in traversing terrain compared to bullets? They have huge terrain collision hitboxes and can't pierce throught stuff even bullets can

[heady hemlock]

can defib pls just reload our guns

[exotic skiff]

Do someone got the spreadsheet with ttk of weapons. S6 updated pls

[sand monolith]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Ud7Rdl3AgMw9mmfDwW2LtDMnzZQ9IIhnqSE4ivsaMTs/edit?usp=sharing&pli=1

[vague verge]

its not an issue since when you get defibbed you are

[exotic skiff]

Thx

[gaunt terrace]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/PJBL033U0P

[frail comet]

I love filling the arena with my farts (Gas mine and Gass grenade)

[slate sluice]

So after using the minigun for about another 10 hours of gameplay, I can now say that it is not very good. I’ve tried offensive and defensive strategies and offensive being more effective but even then I still get out dps. Just not a very good pick when you got the M60 or Lewis gun

[bleak hare]

i havent played since season 4 is the mesh shield still in the same place with the cooldown

[sacred scroll]

The minigun feels it's trying to do too many things at once, it can break structures but it takes half the mag where as ks can reload it's 3 shots quickly, it's a close range bullet hose, but the SA12 does it better , the only niche I think it fills is suppressing fire on a sightline or to pin enemies down if they are in cover

[leaden chasm]

I think the minigun is pretty balanced for what it is, but the novelty has worn off a bit, I think the spin up time could be reduced slightly or as others said make the spread a bit tighter, no doubt you can get a lot of kills with it as it is, in the right situations and play styles, but I think you could get a lot more using other guns hence the slight buff needed

[shell sonnet]

It looses a little bit of health on deploy
So mesh juggle can be done now, just at a cost

[icy sparrow]

What buff?
How will it be balanced?

[royal pier]

This is why sword is not ok.

[shell sonnet]

yeah, thats pretty much it imo
if that wasnt the case it would probably be perfectly fine

question is, how do we change it?

[royal pier]

The hitbox ends upon contact with a target.

No piercing.

[shell sonnet]

that only stops stuff like multihit

they can still roleplay a helicopter and get hits extremely easily

[royal pier]

Hard limit the turn radius.

Once you set your direction, that's where you're aiming. No wiggle.

[shell sonnet]

id imagine that like demoknight from tf2
i wouldnt mind if it became that

still adjustable, not 100% predictable, but limited

i would leave multihit tho
this mostly removes the jank, and if they go through the extra effort of setting up enemies in a line then its deserved imo

what do you think?

[royal pier]

They would have to ensure there's a cool down in between so you can't phantom strike.

Like once hit you cannot be hit by lunge again for like .4 seconds.

[shell sonnet]

what exactly is phantom striking
like how does it work

[shell sonnet]

id understand if its some animation skip jank, but if its tied to multihit?

[royal pier]

I assume the hitbox remains long enough that you can get two hits out of it.

[rose kiln]

best medium weapon?

[icy sparrow]

I couldn’t pull that off cause I can’t increase the sensitivity,what about of mouse do u use?

[icy sparrow]

Nah think of it as m11,only meant for close range

[shell sonnet]

i think players should get some kind of reward for facing a stacked team
its already bad enough that you will likely have less fun/be more likely to loose

thoughts?
what rewards could there?

[royal pier]

Not my clip.

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/VeHtatcTAz

[icy sparrow]

I don’t remember all that much but the sensitivity trick is only for people with really big monitors or something

[placid slate]

Does anyone got the rough attack speed of the spear primary fire

[lapis field]

Asking just if it would be possible for these to be implemented (just concepts) Light- scorpion evo (32-40 mag), medium-G36C (30 mag) , heavy - heavy aug or f2000? (40-45 mag)

[ember condor]

best medium weapon?

[lapis field]

Fcar and famas from what I’ve been seeing lately

[indigo nexus]

A lot of people would say Cerberus

All the ARs are good, I think pike’s generally considered good but is a bit harder to use

[rustic sapphire]

repeater is op if u can hit the headshots

[indigo nexus]

revolver’s very good if you have good aim

repeater’s good if you can correctly utilise its burst

[potent spire]

Heavy specialization where a light can ride on your back

[muted halo]

and demoknight trimping requires way more effort to learn with a better reward to this BS that sword light with dash is currently

fcar or famas for me 100% of the time

[tranquil rose]

How can anyone see this shit and be like "definitely not annoying at all, git gud and better"

Look HOW FUCKING LONG the lunge damage frames is active, this is beyond stupid

[tranquil rose]

Extra exep + fans + VRs would be good

[restive plover]

Outclassed by every non terrible weapon on medium.

[muted halo]

it is fine, most reliable gun in the game, more so that those 2 have better potential if the player is better, at least its the best to shield break due to ammo capacity and total damage per mag

[restive plover]

Fcar is way more reliable.

[muted halo]

considering the ammo per mag and damage per mag, a new player will need to hit less % of mag per kill with akm compared to famas and Fcar. this is what l refer with being reliable, are you referring to the recoil?

[restive plover]

Moreso range damage and hipfire.

But yes the recoil is much simpler and would probably give a new player an easier time hitting things.

[distant verge]

So I was thinking, how about climbing claws? Or ice picks? Light weapon with climbing alt fire, if you a clinging to a wall and jump it launches you off in the direction opposite the wall you are climbing. A little more damage than dagger but lower attack speed, alt fire on enemies launches you up and doing it on the ground does nothing. Thoughts?

[valid raft]

They could literally take the ice pick model they have with the duel blades skin and turn it into this.

[sand monolith]

Cerberus

It’s the best weapon in the game

[olive creek]

More weapons makes balance even harder. Get it right first, then consider more weapons.

Please remove multi hit from sword lunge attach, like was done to hammer overhead so long ago.

[olive creek]

Fcar/akm ... Still

[indigo cedar]

That's somewhat intended, it's supposed to be easy to use without excelling anywhere in particular
the nerf to mag size was completely unnecessary though and should be reverted

[tranquil rose]

Yep, the large mag was the main selling point. Which they nerfed for...whatever the fucking reason lol

[muted halo]

true

[slate wraith]

when will the stun gun be usable again?

[tranquil rose]

I hope never, but realisticly probally next season

[slate wraith]

how long has it been unusable? i just redownloaded the game last night

[tranquil rose]

I guess since the beggining of this season, could be earlier but I don't know

Belive me, the game is in a much better state without it

[muted halo]

yeah, stungun just isn't healthy the way it was, making tons of stuff unviable and being obnoxious to play against + 100% being used in any light loadout

[tranquil rose]

I don't even think they will be able to bring it back without removing a bunch of it's mechanics or completely reworking it

[muted halo]

l hope they either completely rework it or just take it out forever

[shell sonnet]

i kinda liked to snatch boxes and deny steals with it
but the more i think about it
its kinda broken 1 guy can camp the cashout and unless the enemy expects it and pulls some demat shenanigans, they just get the box without a fight
thats pretty cheap, especially with plug money

i posted a while ago about a rework idea
kinda wanna know some more opinions on it

when hit, the enemy becomes electrically charged (no other effects besides this)
the charged enemy will take the usual damage, but also transfer some % of damage taken to another enemy within x range

reasoning:
it doesnt change anything in a 1v1, its specifically a team fight gadget, so no cheese there
in casual, people dont coordinate or dont clump up even close to as much as comp, so it (hopefully) wouldnt be an issue there
and in ranked, where lights usually suffer, this could be a strong advantage to bring to a team, while not being broken since they need to hit it first, delaying their attack and being potentially really risky against people with really good reaction times/aim

could potentially be really cheese to run it 3x and just melt a team but LLL being comp viable would be a first lol

[muted halo]

the idea is interesting, but how big is the radius we are talking? another important question is this team wide? like tasered guy gets hit by a sniper and aoe damage gets absurd

[shell sonnet]

that should be a balancing aspect alongside damage transfer %, dependant on how it feels, if its too strong, etc.

but i was thinking a set range no matter what deals the damage, withing line of sight

[muted halo]

this gives third degre vibes from tf2

[shell sonnet]

i was more thinking about e-varients from gw
but yeah thats also a good example

[shell sonnet]

but tbf its probably too late for that since theyre already reworking it anyways, itll be a while until they touch it again unless the rework is an absolute disaster

[muted halo]

maybe add a marker for the range so the teammates will know how close they can be to not get damaged

[muted halo]

might be the case

[shell sonnet]

ooooooh, that gives me an idea

the bulk detonator from deep rock galactic has like sparks/burning flakes flying around itself in the aoe it can hit you from

it could do that but with like mini lightning in the transfer aoe

[muted halo]

l was thinking something similar to that, feedback would need to be clear for a mechanic like that

[shell sonnet]

(but probably just play it safe and make it a marked zone like aps alongside that)

[distant verge]

I have a silly idea, to buff the tracking dart, how about giving it's scope thermal vision and making it glitch on hit (doesn't last very long though) I feel like it should definitely be buffed cause I've never even considered using it.

[muted halo]

the % value range and duration are the main factors for balancing to make lets say MMH with 2 medguns have an extra counter or HHM to also get a better counter