💣┇weapons-gadgets

[plain wasp]

Might need to test I feel like it was nerfed to 9 or something

This is not CS:GO

[honest oriole]

There’s a happy median in between to strike for. Don’t polarize it!!!

[plain wasp]

Making weapons inaccurate while strafing would just make it more frustrating to play the game

[viscid cliff]

Ok tiny question am I the only one who thinks that the ARN for light needs a tiny damage buff

[ornate scaffold]

Yeah it's a bit weak and weird. Light should have the best weapons since they have the lowest HP, shouldn't they? XP is fine imo.

[atomic sigil]

The ARN just got like a 2-3 damage buff

It can beam at ranges longer than the XP, it serves a completely different purpose and does not need another buff.

But yeah, Lights deserve to kill Heavies in less than a second ongod

Just by looking at Mediums they should be able to make them turn to dust

[weary pagoda]

But then u just have sprayers and snipers

[atomic sigil]

I dunno how people think the ARN is weaj.

[ornate scaffold]

Isn't really stronger that AKM or Fcar, but on a class with 100hp less.

[atomic sigil]

it shouldnt be

You do realize Lights also get to zoom around?

Heavies die to it in 1.66s

No crits, 21 rounds.

[ornate scaffold]

With only headshots when in range, which rarely happens.

[atomic sigil]

I just said no crits.

And its range is 37.5-42 meters

[near scroll]

ARN isn't weak, it's just a worse XP-54, which is why people don't run it

[ornate scaffold]

Doesn't sound right. And even IF they do in practice range, I rarely see that in actual games

[plain wasp]

How do you play the game without spraying bullets out of your gun

[plain wasp]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Ud7Rdl3AgMw9mmfDwW2LtDMnzZQ9IIhnqSE4ivsaMTs/htmlview

[ornate scaffold]

All the light hate makes me feel they should rework that class maybe.

[atomic sigil]

No, Lights are the Wraiths of The Finals

[near scroll]

too much work but it's probably crossed their minds at least once lol

[atomic sigil]

They deserve hate, and they should know it. They are designed to be a nuisance.

[ornate scaffold]

I play all classes, so can see pros and cons with them all

[weary pagoda]

With concentration and timing not just holding the shoot button

[atomic sigil]

If anything, the XP needs a nerf so the ARN can have a spot.

[plain wasp]

Most ttks don't happen perfectly every time, it's just a way to compare relative strength

[ornate scaffold]

Just as I struggle to take lights/sword users defending sword seriously, I struggle to take heavy mains hating lights seriously.

Feels like there's too much bias.

[atomic sigil]

Heavy is the hardest class to play in the game due to having no movement in a fast paced shooter.

[plain wasp]

I play plenty of each and my biggest issue is cerb

[near scroll]

i disagree, i think ARN and XP being so similar is the problem.
i'd say make ARN more of a slower, harder-hitting AR that retains the double mag gimmick

[atomic sigil]

Its a Honey Badger

[plain wasp]

It's a brn-180

[boreal laurel]

I’m a heavy main who tends to view lights as rats and roast them mercilessly with my flamethrower 🔥

BUT then I also go and play throwing knives and be a rat myself 😏 so yeah

[ornate scaffold]

Yeah but I think most agree Cerb is a bit too much atm.

[atomic sigil]

Slower and heavy hitting is not what it does. The problem is that they've made 3 different weapons that are all fast firing and excel in close quarters

[final geyser]

Day 4 of asking for a Spear buff:
Among many of the Spear’s problems, one of the most noticeable when using it is it's shockingly low DPS. Here is a list of guns that can out TTK the spear in Melee range while also being able to do damage from range.

Spear:
Light - Medium - Heavy
1.80s - 2.50s- 3.20s

Heavy v Heavy:
.50 Akimbos: 1.83 > 3.2
Lewis Gun: 1.6 > 3.2
M60: 1.6 > 3.2
KS-23: 2.47 > 3.2
SA1216: .80 > 3.2
SHAK-50: 1.57 > 3.2
MGL32: 2.67 > 3.2

Medium v Heavy:
AKM: 1.7 > 2.5
CL-40: 2.3 > 2.5
FCAR: 1.4 > 2.5
Model 1887: 1.6 > 2.5
R .357: 1.6 > 2.5
Pike-556: 2.1 > 2.5
Cerberus-12: 1.8 > 2.5

Light v Heavy:
93R: 1.64 > 1.8
V9S: 1.33 > 1.8
M11: 1.26 > 1.8
XP-54: 1.48 > 1.8
LH1: 1.5 > 1.8
SH1900: .75 > 1.8
M26 Matter: 1.41 > 1.8

Note: These damage numbers come from patch 1.5.5 and takes into account only body shot numbers. The spear numbers come from its M1 standard attack, not the spin. I just wanted to illuminate that even when Spear has the first shot on another player, how often they lose. Thank yall embark for continuing to do an amazing job on my favorite game and please consider buffing the spear in any capacity!

[ornate scaffold]

Might as well enjoy as much as you can of what the game has to offer 😎

[last tapir]

Yes hello I am Honey Badger

[plain wasp]

Cerb needs it's damage reduced significantly and a buff to the consistency of the fire and the damage of the fire

[boreal laurel]

Yep 😎

[velvet aspen]

Oh my

[atomic sigil]

Make it a stab stab weapon and not the stupid 3 hit combo it does

[near scroll]

do you know about spin cancelling? its the one thing spear has got going for it IMO lol, and its a jank exploit not even an intended feature sadge

[atomic sigil]

The Spin is awesome, but it'd be nice if it was a three stage thing that requires to click for each swing instead of locking you into the whole animation

[near scroll]

or just right click again to cancel it but yea more agency on it would be an actually huge buff for spear

being able to hit spin 1 & 2 then cancel and chase with left clicks would be a game changer for it

[plain wasp]

Imagine dash spear

[near scroll]

dashing blender of doom, i'd love it

grav vortex that u dash spin into omg

a man can dream

[vestal cloak]

No patch this week?

[near scroll]

would be a funny LTM tho, any class can use anything

[atomic sigil]

Probably due to all the "mixed reviews of weapons" when I've never heard anyone say the Minigun is fine where it is.

[near scroll]

technically, yes patch no changes

[vestal cloak]

It's like a really strong weapon in the specific scenario it's strong in

[atomic sigil]

Which is

[jaunty nova]

okay hear me out. new weapon - lasso/whip. left click to whip. right click works as a chain gun and lassos and pulls someone closer. perfect for light class.

[vestal cloak]

When I get a sword where the right click is a charge up sword beam slash, you can have your lasso

[plain wasp]

Minigun is fine where it is

[jaunty nova]

deal

[atomic sigil]

....Oh, you're a Light main.

[plain wasp]

I've been playing minigun

[vestal cloak]

I disagree. I think it should start shooting a little sooner, but slower obv. Like it starts out slower but starts shooting sooner during the windup

[plain wasp]

Acting like I can only play one class because of my server chosen role

[atomic sigil]

I literally think it just needs a tighter spread and thatd be it.

[plain wasp]

If anything it should get better destruction

[vestal cloak]

I think it'd also be nice if it started out accurate, got inaccurate, then slowly got more accurate as you fired

[atomic sigil]

The damage is fine, range is fine. The spread is just not even acceptable and 90 bullets to destroy a building is crazy

[vestal cloak]

The building destruction is fine imo

[atomic sigil]

The rev is fine, the slow is fine. Its a minigun. But LET IT ATLEAST BE ACCURATE IF YOU GIVE IT ALL THESE DOWNSIDES

[plain wasp]

The spread isn't that bad because you get 250 bullets

[near scroll]

buffing both accuracy and destruction would be scary tho
minigun breaks your cover then shreds you across a building

[vestal cloak]

If it got more accurate it would definitely be too strong currently

[plain wasp]

Like just keep shooting

If you have teammates aside you to also shoot people it's very effective

[near scroll]

if i do ill just lose every duel past 10 meters

[vestal cloak]

It needs like a little adjustment to make it feel more consistent I think. I think the "shoots sooner during the ramp up, but starts slower" would probably make it feel better

It's more of a support weapon than anything

[plain wasp]

What people said about cerb (which it was) then they over buffed it and now it needs a nerf

[vestal cloak]

They buffed the cerb in the lazy way no one wanted. We just wanted more fire dot tbh

[plain wasp]

Literally the only weapon in the entire game I have a problem with, it just needed more consistent and powerful fire

[vestal cloak]

Like if the fire was more consistent and did a little more dmg it would've been a fun weapon

Now it's just objectively better double barrel/model

[plain wasp]

It should not be able to one shot lights at all

It should do like 110-120 total damage with 30 being from fire

[vestal cloak]

I wanted it to be more of a sustained dot weapon where it's more dangerous in longer fights and excellent at supporting other fights

Like a weapon to keep others out of the fight

[ornate scaffold]

Just tested this and it's inaccurate. Killing a heavy with body shots leaves you with around 3 bullets, not 9. And takes longer than 1.6s. A bit over 2s would be my guess.

[plain wasp]

350/17 is 20.5 rounded up to 21

If you're taking more bullets than that I don't know what you're doing

[atomic sigil]

why we lying

cause it takes 21

just tested it

[ornate scaffold]

I'm not lying. Was just in practice range and tried it.

[plain wasp]

Even pre buff it was 24

[plain wasp]

You missed

[atomic sigil]

definently missed somehow

[ornate scaffold]

Either those sheets are inaccurate, or I play this game with a handicap 😅

[atomic sigil]

I just tested it thooo

bro got a damage debuff

[ornate scaffold]

I do actually 😅 Enemies have twice the HP they should certain games.

Anyway I'm also fine with the damage on ARN but it becomes a bit weak due to the recoil being a bit bugged as in different per mag.

Any type of buff to it should be recoil related imo.

[atomic sigil]

Just compared to the XP it is bad

The XP needs some range reduction or something

wait. the marksman pistol for the light has a different reload and holding anims?

[junior imp]

You talking about the skin for v9s

[atomic sigil]

might have to take a break from heavy-

[junior imp]

It does
I don’t know exactly how I feel about it

[atomic sigil]

yeah, you hold it with one hand this is rad

[ornate scaffold]

Yeah since now it kinda makes no sense using ARN. So a range nerf for XP could be a good idea and then fixing the recoil on ARN.

[atomic sigil]

I guess it isn't a Honey Badger yeah now that I look at it

[viscid cliff]

Oh..sorry I didn’t know that they did buff it already

[atomic sigil]

lol

[restive plover]

yup

[viscid cliff]

Know I feel slow😅

[restive plover]

yeah

[viscid cliff]

Don’t agree with it🥲

[restive plover]

i have no fkn clue just need lvl 1

[plush harbor]

Xp doesn’t need anything it’s balanced as is

[atomic sigil]

funny joke

[plush harbor]

Wasn’t joking

Light finally has a good weapon that isn’t overpowered

[ornate scaffold]

Issue with light class isn't the weapons imo. They should be stronger since lights have 100 & 200 less HP.

The issue is Cloak and Dash imo.

[atomic sigil]

If you read, the reasons we want a nerf is so it isnt the defacto best Light weapon

Anything being defacto is bad.

[plush harbor]

Buff the other shittier weapons to hold similar spots

[ornate scaffold]

Let's buff the rest then 😉

[atomic sigil]

yep, 250 damage double barrel

[plush harbor]

Xp should stay on top but arn can hold long range and m11/93r can hold short range (if they rework 93r a tad bit)

[atomic sigil]

screw it, 350 and it can pierce and break walls

explosive rounds too

[ornate scaffold]

350 per bullet

[plush harbor]

The specializations are all very poorly designed

[plain wasp]

Cloak needs to be full cloak but loud and a decloak but what about dash

[ornate scaffold]

Maybe a delay after decloaking before shooting?

[atomic sigil]

give Light dead ringee

[plain wasp]

Yeah that's what I mean by decloak

[ornate scaffold]

Aha

Dash could be as simple as 2 charges instead of 3 maybe. Or just make it a bit slower.

[plush harbor]

???

[brittle yoke]

nerf dash why

[plush harbor]

where’s the change

[ornate scaffold]

2 charges instead of 3 isn't a change?

[plush harbor]

Dash is dogshit it does not need a hard nerf it needs a rework

[atomic sigil]

I like grappling hook

[lapis field]

Medium with G36C and light with a bizon🔥🔥?

[plain wasp]

Do you have any ideas for a rework for dash?

[ornate scaffold]

Sign me up!

[final geyser]

I did know about Spin cancelling it was the only thing keeping spear viable last season but they actually patched it at the start of season 6 so it no longer has that going for it 😦

[wide girder]

Yo, can yall gimme a light build?

[fossil elk]

M11 evasive dash frag vanish goo

[shell sonnet]

that sounds really interesting
very much worth investigating

where is it usually done?
i would think its fortune stadium

[wide girder]

Thx

[upbeat loom]

the best

[mighty kayak]

minigun needs a buff

[shell sonnet]

the one next to hospital with the tall glass windows?

if you could send me a screenshot of how high you usually place it that would be perfect, but this is already very good, tyvm

[obsidian nexus]

i take xp54 over lh1 and sword-dash any day. but this last buff just put us straight back into xp54 meta. everyone is running it. i think for long term thats not too healthy but we'll see what u guys do

[static escarp]

Sword is almost as obnoxious to play against as S1 nukes and wallhacks.. like why is this in the game?

[arctic zodiac]

Noone knows.

[ashen isle]

are people rage baiting about sword on purpose?

[obsidian nexus]

sword dash defenders? probably

[ashen isle]

sword is not op

[ornate scaffold]

I don't have a personal relationship for or against Sword, but I've seen enough to know that it's unbalanced. With a vocal (mainly light) minority trying to save it from the nerf that's most likely incoming.

[ashen isle]

if you let a sword person get close enough to kill you, you're either not paying attention, or you're just bad at aiming

[static escarp]

Stupid opinion, gap closing in this game is the most trivial of any FPS game on the market, it's literally impossible to be so bad that you are incapable of closing the gap using sword.

[ornate scaffold]

Is super easy getting close as a light as well, imo

[ashen isle]

if youre using essentially any gun then you have enough dps to kill a sword user before they get to you

[ornate scaffold]

That's very situational tho. Your scenario requires open space and sight, and a not very smart light.

But will drop this now! I just like discussing games I play but also don't like to annoy people. And seems some have a special place in their hearts for the Sword.

[static escarp]

If you're playing against players who are so bad they run at you in a straight line and let you shoot them while using the sword, kindly keep your opinion to yourself because anyone playing at that low MMR simply does not have the experience to have a valid opinion on balance.

[ashen isle]

okay, ill be respectful unlike many people on this server and i will agree to disagree

[ashen isle]

i don't play ranked, and people who think ranked is the only part of a game that's important should rethink their arguments

[static escarp]

And players who are terrible at games and playing against terrible players don't have a valid opinion on balance. I don't care if you're a casual or bad, you just don't have a valid opinion when it comes to balance.

[ashen isle]

alright my argument has been utterly defeated. my opponent has hit the "skill issue" card and therefore i have instantly lost

[shell sonnet]

2 years later: all casuals have left because their opinions dont matter, new players only face seasoned veterans and wont stick around, with a solid chunk of the playerbase gone and no newcomers, not enough people buy cosmetics to keep the server running

[static escarp]

You're the one who tried bringing skill into the equation by trying to bring up aim, not me.

[shell sonnet]

its not about being objectively correct, its about making the game as fun as possible to as many people as possible, so that revenue can keep the game alive

[ashen isle]

that's true, but you can't say i'm bad at the game for bringing up you have to aim in a game that requires aiming

[static escarp]

Their opinion does matter, just not when it comes to balance. Game is designed around/for casual play, there's nothing wrong with that, but balanced around better players, because eventually every bad player becomes good, and if something is broken at a middle/high skill level, it eventually becomes everyones problem.

[ashen isle]

i dont understand how casual players don't matter when it comes to balancing. If the game's not balanced towards casual players, then less people will play the game because it's not casual friendly.

a game can't live off of exclusively veteran feedback

They have to figure out that balance to make the game perfect for everyone

[shell sonnet]

they do matter when it comes to balancing, especially them if anything
the game needs to be accessible

if you have 1 weapon that sucks among skilled players due to an inherent weakness (say melee vs ranged) then you would need to make up for that massively
which would dis-proportionally effect it in casual play, where they might be evenly matched before
now you have a boring meta where everyone is using the same item, everybody trying to steer away gets crushed and people get too bored to stick around
hence they also dont get good and players slowly bleed away

it might not be that extreme but i think you understand what i mean

[shell sonnet]

making it perfect to everyone is impossible

[ashen isle]

Yes, it is impossible. But they can get close

The game doesnt have to be specifically for tryhards or specifically for casuals

[shell sonnet]

theyve been inching closer, its currently far better than its ever been before, but problems remain

they started at the main big problems, nuke/recon, and have since been getting smaller in scope

after the nuke nerf, servers didnt have 2/3rds H at all times, so the next smaller problem was discovered and dealt with

at some point, the problem becomes small enough that they arent in dire need of fixing (and perhaps with otherwise well balanced wepaons, you will see them rarely enough that it wont matter anyways)

[shell sonnet]

if something is broken at a middle/high skill level, it eventually becomes everyones problem.
but it also goes the other way around

example, übersaw from medic tf2
not sure if you play tf2, so in short
medic has uber, which charges over time, thats a few seconds of invulnerability and very powerful
you can charge it faster (25% of a full charge) for each hit on an enemy with the unlockable ubersaw

this was specifically intended to trickle down balance from high level to low level
at high level, a medic in melee range is a free kill

at low level? far from it
and now its run 9/10 and all other options are a downgrade because it otherwise sucks at high level

and since we need new player, and want them to stick around, thier experience should get extra attention to make sure its solid

like, yeah, we dont want weapons to become a problem for everyone like you said

but we also cant balance it for high level, and then have it punch down on all new players

[static escarp]

You have it backwards. Games that are balanced around higher tier play are automatically balanced around casual/low tier play, but not the other way around.

that's why games like cs:go and valorant have a massive casual playerbase, because the game is balanced around the pros.

guns/equipment that are weak in high level play due to a weakness are fine in casual play, because the casual enemies aren't actually good enough to exploit that weakness to counterplay it. Casual players can easily run weak guns or equipment and still do great with it because their opponents aren't good enough for the weaknesses to become a big deal.

Besides, I talked about fun, in that, the sword is not fun to play against. There's zero skill expression in using the sword, and there's no actual counterplay to the sword itself. if they get close, you will die, unless some ridiculous turn of luck happens, regardless of how good your aim or movement is. It's just a function of how the swords hitbox/hurtbox works. It's broken on a fundamental level which is why it's so stupid and unfun to play against. It's not fun for casual OR competitive/veteran players, it's only fun for the sword user itself because it's fundamentally broken and they KNOW it and get a kick out of using something so broken. That's why only specifically sword users defend it.

It's the exact same people who defended wallhacks and nukes in the first season - only players who abused it because it was broken defended it. Anyone with any semblence of sanity KNEW those things were terrible for the game because of how unfun they were to play against.

[deep seal]

SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY THROWING KNIVES HAVING NO RELOAD OR COOLDOWN IS BALANCED

[shell sonnet]

wait, do you think im trying to defend sword?

[static escarp]

What do you think this discussion is about?

[shell sonnet]

i know it was about sword, i just specifically took issue with the opinion that low level players opinions dont matter

oh well, you did say they do

you know what i mean

[plain wasp]

Sword has the same counterplay as every other close range weapon, open areas and holding high ground, which is especially effective against sword

It doesn't even have to be that open of an area either, if you see them coming they can't win

[static escarp]

I didn't say that. But you're just wrong in that with the sword/gun matchup, aim is irrelevant, because the sword itself only has a single win condition which is close gap, and outside of shit mmr lobbies, gap closing is trivial in the finals, the entire game revolves around forcing CQC at some point.

No decent sword user is going to run at you in the open for your aim to matter, they're going to corner hug, then lunge and kill you in a single frame, while being unhittable themselves due to the desync/jank that happens with those sort of fast lunges/movements in this game, all while not actually having to do any sort of aiming themselves.

I did say it's obvious you're bad because you talked about sword users running at you in the open, then you confirmed it. No one who is decent or plays against decent players would ever say something like that because that's not how decent players play.

[static escarp]

Only when it comes to balance, specifically. In everything else, their opinion is just as valuable as veterans.

[plain wasp]

Did I mention sword can't destroy mines without utility

[shell sonnet]

what about the problems i mentioned?

[static escarp]

which problems are you referring too? Thought I got everything

[shell sonnet]

this doesnt really feel like it adresses it

like, "weapons balanced around high tier are balanced around low tier"

when i specifically mentioned an example where this did not work

[ashen isle]

So what youre saying is sword isnt op, youre just playing against people who are really good at using it

[static escarp]

I've never played TF2 so I can't really comment on that example. Based on what I'm reading, it just seemed like a bad design in the first place, something that's very abusable. That sounds more like an issue with the design itself than a pure balance problem

[plain wasp]

Sword is countered by playstyle, any bad Sword will lose every time against competent enough players, it takes plenty of positioning skill to not just lose because they closed all entrances and are staying at the far end away from the open one

[ashen isle]

Sword takes skill just like any other weapon, it just seems like it doesnt because of how quickly it pays off for the sword player

[plain wasp]

It takes learning your counters and being able to react to them on the fly to not lose

[oblique crypt]

It's more positional skill than actually aiming, but it's still skillful. Either way maybe I'm just lucky but I never really had much of a problem fighting swords.

[polar trout]

My god people saying sword has no skill expression only deserve the title of "fully functioning human being" exceptionally tentatively

[plain wasp]

Tried to tell that to reddit earlier (30 downvotes)

[polar trout]

It's like saying Reinhardt takes no skill. Or any melee hero from rivals. Yes it takes skill, just cuz they don't have to spend a few hours in the training range learning a recoil pattern doesn't mean it takes no skill. I guess you just lack the ability to understand the type of skill sword takes, so you assume it just doesn't have any?

Like if you position bad, you're fucked. If you miss lunges or mistime your dashes or toss a combo, guess what? You're still fucked

If the enemies have a relatively intelligent player on one of your like 10 or so hard counters, GUESS WHAT

Sword has plenty of skill expression, so stop trying to say it doesn't just because it's not skill expression you much care for

[plain wasp]

My skill expression is dash lunging over their head and somehow landing the lunge qm slash combo

Don't even know how I won that one

[polar trout]

And before you say shit, I hate nukes and recon senses, and I don't really ever use sword. I'm a heavy main who's used m60 for the past season and a half or so

Sure, fix any bugs and maybe make it so the lunge is locked to one direction (but actually works, sometimes I just stick my sword forward without even moving in a rather anemic manner) but sword should not be hard nerfed or removed or anything like that

[atomic sigil]

I think the lingering damage is a little silly.

[static escarp]

I've played sword plenty, specifically to learn it's "counterplay" which is exactly why I hold the opinion I do. It's really hilarious that you would have the opinion it takes a lot of skill when you've barely used it at all. A chimp could be trained to play it decently enough with like 3 bananas and a jar of peanut butter.

It's the EXACT same reason nuke was so obnoxious to play against - literally zero skill requirement on it.

[polar trout]

I don't actually have a comment on that tbh, I've only hit people so long as I have the pointy part pointed at them.

Honestly I think it's worse on hammer heavy attack

[atomic sigil]

You can clearly miss the person and just wiggle the thing from side to side to smack them

Thats my only complaint

[polar trout]

Yeah lock camera while lunging I suppose

Or just lower turning ability

[static escarp]

It takes like 15 seconds to realize all you have to do to be good with the sword is not run at enemies who are in the open while abusing the netcode and broken hitbox. The entire animation is a hit, all you have to do to get a kill is time your dash anytime during that animation and you get a hit.

[atomic sigil]

And sometimes the dash lunge spam can feel a bit..obnoxious.

[polar trout]

Must be your internet, I've literally never had an issue with a sword in my entire career, no matter how close they are or how much "net code abuse" they do I can just shoot them. And seeing as how my gun kills them faster than their sword kills me, and they're so close I can't possibly miss, it works pretty well. Also just preaiming behind me for when they dash past and killing them the second they do is easy enough

They do the 6 yo with a nerf sword thing and just wiggle that shit about

[polar trout]

I think it takes a lot of skill cuz anyone playing the way you've described kinda just gets destroyed anywhere past unranked

"oh but the casuals" yeah if someone good enough to do well with sword someone as equally good with a gun would be just as oppressive

And obv if they're good enough in low ranks then they'll climb out, takes care of the issue of it being good at low ranks

Then they'll run into the wall of people who take their complaints to the training range instead of discord and will realize sword isn't all that op

[plain wasp]

If sword is the most op weapon in the game why do I see it so infrequently too

[polar trout]

Pm

[plain wasp]

People act like there's 3 every game when I see one like 1/5-1/10 games

[polar trout]

Like Cerberus is way more annoying and overpowered, why don't y'all complain about that?

[plain wasp]

Yeah cerb is like my only issue with balance currently too

[polar trout]

you can freely and easily one shot AN ENTIRE CLASS

For the sin of getting too close, the thing light has to do on alot of its weapons

And it takes this amazingly skilled "putting your cross hair somewhere near the opps" (you get three chances, but the reload got buffed anyways so who cares)

And they appear every game I go into, shouldn't that be a sign?

[near scroll]

i can get it to work consistently with hand gestures, idk 🤷‍♂️

[polar trout]

No they didn't it still works fine, I just say thanks or hype and it cancels

[muted summit]

Sword counter play:

𖨆 <—-> M/H
𖨆 <—————> M/H

[placid slate]

that was gadget cancel, comms wheel cancel is untouched

[muted halo]

most op are right now are probably cerberus and xp, sword is one of the most annoying though

[plain wasp]

Xp is not op

[muted halo]

why the fuck not? it outclasses every light weapon like when it had 18 damage, but now has more ammo and better fall off

[gilded oracle]

Whats the meta gadgets for medium?

[muted halo]

jumpad, zip defib. goo nade is what l usually see good players use, rest situational or play style dependent

[junior dew]

Is Rpg still worth running on heavy? Don’t see it as much as I used to

[muted halo]

yes, but sometimes people swap for lockbolt or both

[plain wasp]

Every other light weapon needs to be as balanced as the xp, not the other way around

[junior dew]

alright, thanks

[plain wasp]

And the other light weapons are not significantly worse

[arctic zodiac]

250 dps not enough for you mate?

[plain wasp]

I don't use the xp

Light weapons have and always will still be worse comparatively to all weapons on med and heavy because of health difference
Outside of edge cases

[gilded oracle]

I saw some people running data reshaper in some pro skrims but, I realise now thats only good against heavies

[muted halo]

93r is underrated and is not used because XP has too much range, same with current ARN which just needs qol (recoil be same on different mags and reload mechanic be of control of the player). LH1 got gutted for no reason (so buff), v9s fine, DB fine, m11 annoying but fine, throwing knives fine , bow maybe a small buff not much , dagger needs small buffs and netcode to work, sword annoying in a pubstomp state nerf them rework would be ideal or go direct for a rework sniper; sr-84 just cant be viable without being busted in the current ranked setting of no swap reserve (to make it fine to run as a generalist is probably gonna break it)

[muted halo]

and turrets

[plain wasp]

LH1 isn't bad, bow is high skill, sword is fine and very counterplayable

[gilded oracle]

^but like do people really run that in pro skrims? actually is turret good at all compared to heal beam and demat?

[plain wasp]

Turret is the worst of the 3

[muted halo]

XP-54/mp5 issue is simple, its recoil pattern makes too easy to beam as an auto weapon in midrange, combine this and the range fall off buff+ammo it overperforms outside of an smg range, yeah l know most fps make mp5 be an easy to control gun, it does not need to be hard to control just to have actual pattern after 15 bullets

[hardy dust]

93r is alright, but is only really great against light. Arn just has poor damage, the recoil is super easy although it would make sense to make them the same, lh1 is still very strong and got a well deserved nerf, v9s could do with a small buff ever since they nerfed it over an accessibility issue, db and m11 are fine, tk are kinda bad, bow would do well with a slight buff, dagger needs huge buffs and the servers fixed, sword is fine, but servers fixed would be nice, sr84 should be "reworked" to be a lot better up close and worse at range. (More quickscoping)

[muted halo]

in pro no, only demat and healbeam

[hardy dust]

Turret is arguably the worst spec in the game

[plain wasp]

Light specs are still worse

[hardy dust]

Yeah fair

[muted halo]

turret is bad, if you have the skill go for demat in solo play most of the time

[hardy dust]

But at least dash is kinda useful with melee, grapple is pretty shit, but so are turrets. Its more that not running cloak is the bigger issue

[muted halo]

l dont think this is true, but probably not worth discussing with you since you seem to have the mentality of lights are against the world or something always in disadvantage

[hardy dust]

They quite literally are always at a disadvantage

[muted halo]

most of the specs help the class flank

[plain wasp]

Loudly

[hardy dust]

Only really works on enemies without gamesense

[muted halo]

and l bet if anyone could choose any spec with any class combination it would probably always be heavy with that logic

[hardy dust]

?

[muted halo]

ok, if that is the way you think

[plain wasp]

All three specs are very loud when doing things

Especially grapple, I swear I hear it from across buildings

[muted halo]

do you really want flanking to be free?

[plain wasp]

An effective flank would actually catch the enemy by surprise

[hardy dust]

Maybe just wanting it not to be almost always useless

[plain wasp]

Doesn't work if they can hear exactly where you are

[muted halo]

yeah as expected

[plain wasp]

The light specs don't even need buffs, they need reworked

[plush harbor]

nerf light buff medium

[still magnet]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1213572237941284864/1353810095691141140/nerfdagger.gif

[hardy dust]

Ong

[plain wasp]

BUFF HEAVY EMBARK IS ALWAYS AGAINST US AND FOR THE NO BRAIN LIGHTS

[hardy dust]

Dagger is too oppressive, so nerf it and buff cerb (the only half decent counter)

[plain wasp]

Nerf the net code dagger needs it

[still magnet]

I almost made oscar cry on stream today

[atomic sigil]

I like Grappling Hook

[muted halo]

l think its the most fun spec from light

[atomic sigil]

No other gadget lets you flee the scene like Batman

[kindred hemlock]

light is arguably in the worst position its ever been in and the cerberus is crazy good rn it doesnt need a buff

[plain wasp]

Light is in a much better position than launch and also that message was sarcasm

[blissful delta]

Are there any tips/tricks on fast leveling weapon skins?

[sonic tangle]

AKM is sick!!

What’s yall fav weapons?

[plain wasp]

LH1 or sword

Minigun and Sledge for heavy, revolver or akm/fcar for med

[rocky trout]

i wish theyd buff minigun, its too clunky to play as is for me

[plain wasp]

I think it's fine as is, just jump before you start spinning up

[cedar walrus]

KS-23 My beloved

[rotund warren]

I want my stun gun back 🥹

[rocky trout]

ofc i do that, still a bit too clunky for the finals imo, other guns can do the same faster and with less prep

does totally shred tho, the dmg isnt the issue

just the speed/dmg ratio feels off to me

[plain wasp]

It has to keep the spin up to be different, I like how it feels

To wind it up then turn a light into a mist

[rocky trout]

woah woah woah the spinup is awesome, i just think it should hold longer or spin or reload a liiiitle faster

[tranquil rose]

Just the let the stun gun die

There's no reason for it to exist, seriously.

[calm grove]

How about you...get this...track people while they move 🤯

[plain wasp]

What it really needs is a massive increase to the destruction

[rocky trout]

90 bullets is too much for one chunk of wall i totally agree. but i aslo dont want it to be a util weapon over a damage one if that makes sense

[obsidian nexus]

For sweet baby jesus's sake, do something against dash sword.

[plain wasp]

Even if it was just 50 bullets that's a good portion of your mag and takes a bit

[distant verge]

For clarity:
Sledge 1 second
KS 2 second
W/windup Minigun 3.5 second
Wo/windup Minigun 4.8

Wall destruction

[distant verge]

Maybe make it destroy in 2.5 seconds after windup and 3.8 from 0?

[rocky trout]

honestly if there was any stat id like to see buffed in minigun its reload speed, it has the lowest of any (full auto, so not model) gun in the game by far, even the old longest are like twice as fast. if reloads were faster itd make destruction easier too bc you have an easier time wasting bullets

[distant verge]

Saying "if there was any stat id like to buff" implies you wouldn't change any others. Do you mean you wouldn't change anything else about it?

[rocky trout]

well i guess i didnt mean that exactly but the damage seems fine to me, if youd buff that it might get too crazy. the terrain damage could be improved, and the rev speed / rev retention could be improved also. i just think that reload speed would be the best change imo

[tranquil rose]

The damage is okay, the lack of consistency it's what make it terrible to use

[lapis field]

devs let’s make that happen, love the game btw❤️💯👌🏾

[tranquil rose]

Sometimes it feels basically 50/50 if you win the trade or not

[rocky trout]

elaborate?

[keen turtle]

the destruction feels lack luster. I say that as a sledge main, though. I think you could destroy 3 walls with a full clip. That's okay but it just takes so long

[rocky trout]

2 and a half wall chunks

[sullen bear]

Let’s get the biblically accurate ks

[distant verge]

I think they might be talking about the bullet spread adding a bit of rng, but if that's the case I wouldn't pay it much mind, cause let's be clear here the alternative is that the minigun fires in a straight line.

[rocky trout]

yeah the range being an issue is part of the charm the spread is good

[distant verge]

Bro wants the minigun to be a sniper alternative

I don't wanna be too harsh on him. Sorry Enjoyer of whatever is fun, don't mean to bring the mood down, your critism is correct in that the minigun has a bit of inconsistency but I'm personally not under the impression that this fact should change.

[plain wasp]

It's a minigun, it's plenty consistent enough

[cedar walrus]

With 1.5x headshot multiplier

They need to stop treating the ks like other shotguns, its a massive slug not buckshot

[obsidian nexus]

tf u did to xp54, u wanna have a class only running 1 weapon? than do what u did to xp

[tranquil rose]

My main gripe with the weapon is that it's need a LITTLE bit more narrow spread to prevent loosing in trades where you were suppose to win, and I'm not talking about sniping someone across the room, just at medium to close range. The weapon cons hurt the experience a ton, there were just too many instances where the enemy left with little health cuz none of the bullets hit.

Edit:

I saw the rest of your messages, yeah I agree with most of them. I think the main point it needs tuning is the spread, it's the first thing it needs.

[plain wasp]

All lights can't run sword and xp at once pick a lane

[obsidian nexus]

ur talking against a wall

[plain wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/not-giving-the-finger-hate-growing-middle-finger-gif-14497831

[vague verge]

the slow ROF of the repeater makes missing punishing. nerfing the ROF to make this more pronounced would only work on casuals so thats not the play, and reducing dmg would just make it a worse pike/revolver

real pickle with that one

I think a light rework for all three to give them more clear cut roles might even out usage for all of them

also light mains complaining about it is funny because its litterally countered by good movement

[tranquil rose]

Repeater struggles alot with goo, barricades, dome and meesh shield, good movement, enemies who dive at you

[vague verge]

I still think its a bit overtuned

[tranquil rose]

Yeah, it's a difficult situation

[plush harbor]

there is no good movement options with dash or cloak

dash is easily tracked
cloak has no movement buffs

[tranquil rose]

I mean, alot people say "it kills light with 2 body shot", but even if it make it like 3, wouldn't suck so much balls then?

[vague verge]

maybe dont dash where they think ur gonna dash idk just a suggestion

[plush harbor]

If only that worked

[vague verge]

works just fine for me

[tranquil rose]

What would you suggest to make it more balanced?

[plush harbor]

Don’t ask me

[vague verge]

does dash not have i frames?

[plush harbor]

It does not

[vague verge]

im assuming giving it some i frames would make it too op, but then not having i frames makes desync an issue

[plush harbor]

i frames is a shitty fix

[vague verge]

what if the first one has no trail, and then for the next 2 it gets gradually more visible

[plush harbor]

That doesn’t fix anything lol

[vague verge]

makes it less obvious where you went

also I just randomly had a theory that the lag could be caused by the high quality coin particles when you kill a player

even though it makes absolutely 0 sense

[tranquil rose]

Lag or tick rate?

[vestal cloak]

Honestly the repeater feels mostly fine. The largest issue I have is just it's really high damage all across the board. The damage could probably drop off a little faster.

They should probably give the pike back it's damage after falloff a bit too so the two clearly have different roles. The pike feels like a harder to use repeater sometimes

[vague verge]

I think its like the minigun where its very dependent on whether or not you have advantage, but its more noticeable with the minigun

[vestal cloak]

The minigun just needs to start shooting sooner but start at a slower rpm. I think it'll feel more natural then tbh

My largest issue with the thing is it feels so clunky. It feels very very team comp specific to be effective, which is ok, but I would like it to be just a tad more flexible

Like, you're either shredding because people are running into you, or dying because they stay away or keep jumping you. It feels very dependent on outside factors to be effective

I like that it has an effective range and a long windup (maybe a bit too long), but it just feels like it needs me usability adjustment and not accuracy or damage.

It's either that or it needs to be more accurate with less damage, which is what I think the dev team will do because it's the laziest option lol.

Removing headshots would also help the weapon a lot I think. Push the damage towards the normal bullets instead. It'll feel a lot more consistent. Headshots with it are basically criticals lol

[vague verge]

Its a complete side grade to the flamethrower. When it actually works its better, but the flamethrower will actually work more consistently

[vestal cloak]

Ehhh kind of. I would rather use the minigun in most situations tbh. But in powershift yea

[royal pier]

I'm done writing in detail, nerf the hitscan full autos.

[opal pulsar]

People done listening then g

[glossy barn]

shak-50

[sand monolith]

What hitscans need to be nerfed

[royal pier]

All the ARs, LMGs, and SMGs

[sand monolith]

Bro what

I usually see some sort of reason in your takes but this one is just wild

[royal pier]

They removed the animation cancels that made weapons like the KS-23, SA1216, and 1887 as strong as they were.

That's fine, but it buffed the weapons with no downsides like those mentioned.

[sand monolith]

It did buff them yes

We’ve had a burst damage meta since launch

2/3 classes have shotguns as their best weapon still

And the other one has a shotgun as their 2nd best

[eager wasp]

kill the shotgun meta!

[distant verge]

How

The question is now how

And what method you suggest can't also make shotguns a bad option. That is the dilema here.

And also keep in mind that reducing range would at best make it a melee weapon and that if you increase bullet spread at all people will dispise it since it "makes it more rng"

And keep in mind that if you nerd the light shotguns then they will likely switch to melee weapons, making more sword lights.

I honestly kinda happy that people are opting to use the shotguns more than other things in this game considering how few shotguns people use in other first person shooters.

[plush harbor]

shotguns are either the most broken thing in existence or utter dogshit

theres almost no inbetween ever present in any game

[distant verge]

There is a balance, and the finals is as close as it's gotten in the games I've played, I'm honestly impressed, good job embark.

[plain wasp]

Except then there's cerb

[distant verge]

I feel like there was definitely a spot for it with medium, a double barrel equivalent to the light and flame thrower equivalent to the heavy, makes a good in between in consept, just wish it didn't completely outshine the other shotgun, not sure what to do about that though.

[wind lintel]

Not really

[plain wasp]

Cerb is the only weapon in the game that needs a nerf

Some of lights weapons could use a slight buff too but nothing serious

Ks23 could get something too

[sand monolith]

Nerf it

The Cerberus is blatantly overpowered idk why they ever buffed it

In the same patch where they get the model to a perfect state too

Insanely odd decision

[royal pier]

The SA1216 is below the ShAK-50/Deags/M60 now due to the animation cancel being gone.

[sand monolith]

Not really

The sa12 is still just the best heavy weapon

[royal pier]

No. Having to rotate the chamber drastically lowers the burst.

[sand monolith]

M60 isn’t really good unless you have 2 heavies and deagles aren’t bad but their consistency isn’t good enough to rely on

[sand monolith]

Yes, you play around this as a heavy player

[royal pier]

Before you could go 4 shots, winch, then instantly 4 more shots.

[royal pier]

Or use the ShAK-50

[sand monolith]

Okay then you play around it’s reload which is longer

[royal pier]

The dmg nerf also means the ShAK-50 actually wins that fight.

[sand monolith]

Sure I think it’s a little easier for the sa12 player though

[royal pier]

Deagles already did win vs SA1216 actually

[sand monolith]

Deagles aren’t consistent enough to be meta ever

[royal pier]

Now it's probably even easier.

[sand monolith]

Spread is too much for deagles to be viable

[royal pier]

I just use winch and crouch hipfire as I pull.

Crouching hipfire is pretty reliable.

[sand monolith]

That’s still not consistent enough for a ranked meta

[royal pier]

ShAK is tho.

[sand monolith]

Yes shak is really good it’s a little under sa12

[royal pier]

Over

[sand monolith]

It’s not better than sa12

[royal pier]

They nerfed the dmg too.

[sand monolith]

We are still watching every comp heavy take the sa12 with almost no exceptions

[royal pier]

They can be wrong It's fine.

[sand monolith]

SA12 just does exactly what heavy needs to do in teamfights

[royal pier]

Just because they use it, doesn't make it correct.

[sand monolith]

Respectfully I think they know a bit more

[royal pier]

Siege pros shit on LMGs for years, then realized that they were actually great.

Then they got them nerfed lol.

At the end of the day they're human, and can like the comfort of the familiar.

[sand monolith]

Sure I don’t think that’s what’s happening here though. SA12 fits heavy’s role in a teamfight perfectly as well as the meta gadgets for heavy. Shak is at most on par with the sa12

[royal pier]

Same with how the V9S and 93r are slept on, probably because they still have the stank of their old versions.

[sand monolith]

People know V9S and 93r aren’t bad

But they’re not the best on light so you don’t take them

[plain wasp]

I don't take 93r or famas because I don't like burst in this game

[sand monolith]

Light weapons are extremely competitive

[royal pier]

I'd say V9S competes with the MP5.

[sand monolith]

It doesn’t

[royal pier]

Yeah this is a big factor.

[plain wasp]

The LH1 is peak

[sand monolith]

V9S is like A tier while Lh1, xp-54, and m26 are S tier

Therefore there is no reason to use the V9S ever because it is outperformed

[plain wasp]

I would use LH1 if I wasn't having fun with sword currently

[royal pier]

Stats say otherwise.

[sand monolith]

Stats don’t reflect how a weapon plays at all

[plain wasp]

I've been playing minigun even more recently too

[royal pier]

There's a difference between ease of use and optimal power.

[sand monolith]

If you go by optimal power then the lh1 is the best weapon in the game and a direct upgrade to V9S

But you don’t go by optimal power because that’s not how the game plays out, although lh1 is still a nearly direct upgrade to V9S just cause of the range

[royal pier]

Literally just got a fairly heavy nerf.

[coral root]

Bring back stun gun

[plain wasp]

It's still good

80 damage per shot on all headshots is crazy

[sand monolith]

And according to stats, it would still be a direct upgrade to the V9S if you go by optimal power

But you can’t go by stats because weapons don’t really play by stats in the meta

[plain wasp]

If we go by stats sniper needs a nerf

[sand monolith]

That’s why the m26 is S tier despite killing slower than its direct competition

[plain wasp]

In optimal conditions sniper beats med every time

[sand monolith]

Yea

Stat sheet just isn’t how the game plays especially when it comes to meta

[plain wasp]

Unless they have a cerb which would make it a draw

[sand monolith]

I like how I knew what that was supposed to say through the typo

Cerberus is a fair and balanced weapon

[plain wasp]

Repeater is also kinda broken by stats

[royal pier]

Is it tho?

Obvi of we're talking ranged the LH1 is better still

[plain wasp]

V9S drop-off is 10m

In most situations you don't get full damage

[sand monolith]

Yeah those times are never happening for the v9

[plain wasp]

That's also assuming you shoot max fire rate at all times

[sand monolith]

Nor should you play that close with V9 to begin with

[royal pier]

So the average range of most fights?

[sand monolith]

The average range in world tour maybe

[royal pier]

That got easier with the change earlier.

[sand monolith]

When talking about meta, I’d assume we are talking about high ranks. Which means fights take place from further

[royal pier]

Only because they've decided to monkey-see-monkey-do.

[sand monolith]

i mean, thats just playing optimally

[royal pier]

You can force fights to be closer.

[sand monolith]

you can yes

thats very often the goal of attacking teams

its not free to do though

[royal pier]

Just saying that high ranks can easily get trapped into a dogmatic view of the meta.

It's meta because it's meta, even if it isn't actually the only way to succeed.

[sand monolith]

finals players are constantly trying to find alternative metas

thats not whats happening

[vestal cloak]

Meta is more forced in high rank because of how ranked works. It less be so much more free form if you could swap to reserves, or at least had a dedicated swap slot for a second weapon

[sand monolith]

that would be extremely unhealthy

[vestal cloak]

I don't think so personally. A dedicated second weapon slot would be nice. Most people don't even take a second weapon in reserves in non ranked. I imagine in ranked you take one purely for the final round tbh

[sand monolith]

swapping in ranked is already purely used for hard counters

[vestal cloak]

You can't even swap mid round lol

[sand monolith]

i know

and theres still an issue of people swapping to hard counter

[vestal cloak]

Explain, because you can't swap to hard counter if you don't what others are running.

The issue with not being able to swap mid round is it creates a sort of "cover all" mentality where you're afraid to take things that are off meta, or that aren't as generally useful as possible cause you can't swap if it isn't working

Enemy teams can literally just swap all of their gear from one round to the next and to counter swap you basically have to guess if they're doing that

[sand monolith]

between rounds you can swap, especially before final round

[vestal cloak]

Imo, it's unhealthy and unfun at a base level tbh. Especially in the final round

[vestal cloak]

At most you know one team MIGHT be running a similar setup

[sand monolith]

what? you just played against them

[vestal cloak]

You have 4 reserve slots. You can swap out a weapon, gas for fire, etc. Why would you risk taking a direct counter to that team when they could swap off making your kit useless, and likewise why would you swap off what's generally working if the other teams may not counter pick? It's a guessing game imo

[sand monolith]

you only hard counter specs and primaries. specs cant be changed and weapons are what people main. your weapon is also heavily based on the rest of your loadout

if you play a weapon with any downsides you will get counterswapped in final round

[sand monolith]

this is just a solo queue issue

[vestal cloak]

Yes, so you'll swap your gear up and counterswapping will be pointless for the final round as the other team because you're taking a gamble. That's what I'm saying

[sand monolith]

its not a gamble, people dont swap their primaries

[vestal cloak]

That just isn't true lol

[sand monolith]

ok 👍

[vestal cloak]

If I was running sledge I know I would swap in the final round tbh. I imagine if you got to a high rank and wanted to try sledge with a squad you know, you'd also swap off for the final round.

If people aren't running things like sledge, it's because they can't swap if it isn't working mid game. The ranked system naturally squashes variety by encouraging safe picks in general imo. The flamethrower, for example, is very much a weapon pick for specific situations. But being stuck with it when it isn't useful anymore would just be giving a free W, so why would i ever take it?

[sand monolith]

what would you swap to

[vestal cloak]

A gun

[sand monolith]

which gun?

[vestal cloak]

A gun that works? M60, lewis, deagles. Might depend on the strat my squad and I have, it might be whatever I wanna go for

[sand monolith]

you cant switch to deagles or lewis because theyre ranged weapons and if you were on sledge then your loadout is made for close range

m60 is the most generalist of the those but if youre running sledge you definitely have winch and winch m60 is an awful combo, so cant swap to that

your only options left that arent throw picks are close range weapons, because your loadout is made for close range.

if someone is counterpicking your sledge, whatever you swap to is still going to be countered

[vestal cloak]

You have 4 reserve slots. I would argue you could easily set up a kit that would generally work with a gun in the final round with at least 2 slots, maybe 3, because you're 4 main slots already are getting used for your build. You can basically swap your whole bild.

Your specialization would, ofc, be the only pain point

[sand monolith]

thats not really a good idea either, nor should that be necessary. keeping a 2nd loadout entirely just for if you get counter swapped is still a gamble for both players which doesnt feel great

regardless, having more options to swap would make this worse

and being incentivized to pick what works best in all situations is just a solo queue issue which should be resolved through an lfg page in game

[vestal cloak]

I don't think it's just a solo queue issue, I don't see how it isn't an issue that would affect a team too

[sand monolith]

premade teams get more usage out of specialized weapons because they are playing around those strengths and weaknesses together

its why m26 matter is a terrible solo q weapon but contends for best gun on light in a stack

same with ARN, bad solo queue weapon, great in a stack with a team comp thats made to play around it

[vestal cloak]

And swapping up reserves wouldn't cause mass counter swapping because to swap you NEED to get wiped or use a resource. I think they could easily adjust the resource cost instead and still allow swapping if they wanted to keep it stricter.

I think you can play around the weaknesses, but then you run into the issue, imo, of those strategies only working because others CAN'T swap to counter your build that isn't as common in general

[sand monolith]

i dont see a single issue that swapping mid round would fix. it would arguably force you more into generalist weapons because niche weapons are at the highest risk for being counterpicked

game is heavily balanced around weapons having weaknesses so swapping is limited intentionally to prevent exploiting that

[vestal cloak]

But they also gain a good bit of usability imo. And tbh I think being potentially screwed because someone predicted your build - or possibly recognized your stack and remembered your strat - is kind of miserable fun wise. If your kit is entirely based around melee, along with your reservee, and you get to the final round and one item counters you, which the enemy team has, that's just not fun imo.

And if what you said is true - where I would only be running melee stuff and can easily be countered - that basically makes the build a gambling build of "did the enemies take the counter or not"?

[sand monolith]

That’s again really just a solo queue issue. Team comps are made to cover each others weaknesses

[vestal cloak]

Solo Q is probably what the majority of people do I would think tbh, so I don't think this can just be dismissed in that way.

[sand monolith]

If im on sword and someone is throwing glitch traps, im asking my medium to shoot them out for me

[vestal cloak]

That would happen with our without reserves as well yea

[sand monolith]

Yes and the game is a team based game, it shouldn’t be balanced around solo queue, grouping should just be incentivized

[vestal cloak]

The game should be balanced around what's most fun imo - even in ranked - and I think not being able to swap is just less fun overall. I like the dynamic nature of the game with reserves in WT a lot more personally, and don't find counter swapping to be an issue outside of maybe the final round (the final round in general I think is just lazily designed for both WT and ranked but that's another topic)

Like, I cannot see why as a 3 stack you would ever build around flame thrower unless the Meta is all lights with sword simply because the final round would be so ass unless you took a gun

Even if they're covering for you

[sand monolith]

Respectfully, you should just play world tour then. Being able to swap mid round is a lot less competitive, which doesn’t make sense for a competitive mode.

You would never build around flamethrower because the weapon sucks

[vestal cloak]

Why is it less competitive? Because it's less restrictive?

I don't think it's more fair either tbh

[sand monolith]

Look at overwatch 5v5, games can be decided entirely by who swapped to a winning matchup during the important fight. That would be even worse with cashout considering how all or nothing it is

You could be at an advantage by losing the first fight because you can see their loadouts and swap for the 2nd fight

[vestal cloak]

Overwatch is an entire beast. I think marvel rivals shows that counter swapping can be basically a non issue based on how I don't hear those complaints from that community

[sand monolith]

Because they have a ban system

And because they have more players per team

[vestal cloak]

They ban a few, yes, mostly bucky I believe atm lol. You don't ban every character

[sand monolith]

Well yes but you can ban whats going to counter your team comp

[vestal cloak]

Yes, and that's a layer of strategy. As more characters are added the choices will become more interesting for sure.

I still don't see how that means that this game is more competitive when you can't swap to reserves mid round, and also how it's more fun.

Restrictions usually exist to emphasize a certain element of skill the community values

[sand monolith]

This is inherently uncompetitive

[vestal cloak]

Most loadouts, I would argue, don't have direct 100% counters other than gas/fire/goo. And in the case you mentioned, you could also have them covering for their weakness anyway. You can't swap specializations like you said

[sand monolith]

Not being able to swap is also somewhat of a litmus test for balancing. Hard counters don’t belong in this game to begin with and weapons should be counterable by playstyle and strategy rather than swapping. Not being able to swap makes sure this is being tested every game

[sand monolith]

Yes most loadouts don’t have hard counters but you can still soft counter for an objective advantage. That’s not competitive

[vestal cloak]

Why is countering not competitive?

[sand monolith]

This also incentivizes running something that works in all situations, like I said

[vestal cloak]

I think it incentives experimentation personally

[sand monolith]

Being rewarded for losing the fight by getting a chance to counterswap for the 2nd fight?

That’s blatantly uncompetitive

[vestal cloak]

Also, in non final rounds you're not even guaranteed to spawn near the team you just fought

[sand monolith]

So randomness + rewarded for losing

[vestal cloak]

So swapping may be potentially pointless.

In the final round, the issue still exists of your entire kit being countered from the start, which I think is uncompetitive, and blatantly unfun

You can minimize it by playing around it, but it's still an issue

Like, do people take gas in high ranks? Ever?

[sand monolith]

Final round would literally just come down to whichever team has the positive matchup during final fights lol. Either that or only super safe weapons

[sand monolith]

No

[vestal cloak]

I think that's what it comes down to now tbh

[vestal cloak]

Both in WT and ranked. didn't mean to reply lol.

[sand monolith]

Final round now comes down to strategizing around what the enemy has because you know they’re locked to it for the rest of the game. Playstyle matters a lot more than anything else when it comes to countering in final round. Which is a very good thing

I can promise swaps would be a very bad idea for ranked. They’ve been done in pro tournaments before too because you couldn’t disable them and organizers didn’t wasn’t the hassle of tracking loadouts. It was immediately determined that it was awful for the game and was banned

[vestal cloak]

Idk. I still think the best thing you can do is just playstyle counter and not swap your kit except for final round specific gear you run (swapping motions for example for a mine) regardless of what is being ran

[sand monolith]

Yes you can’t do that if the other team swaps though

How do I set up on defense if I don’t know what they’re going to be using when they respawn

[vestal cloak]

You still don't know is kind of my point honestly.

[sand monolith]

You do right now though

[vestal cloak]

You have a general idea, and that general idea would still be there even if you could swap

[sand monolith]

The first fight in final rounds in high elo is literally just spent learning loadouts to strategize where to take the vault

[vestal cloak]

Agree to disagree at this point. It's interesting to discuss in general for sure. I'm a firm believer that the game should be fun in general first and give the tools for the comp scene to play how they like. I suppose if the comp scene finds it fun, then it's fun

[sand monolith]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1344791352449433663/1344803823100756049/togif-1.gif

[sand monolith]

My bad

[vestal cloak]

As long as they share WT progression between ranked and WT we'll be fine

[sand monolith]

Yeah that I think everyone can agree on

[vestal cloak]

Ridiculous you have to grind twice if you wanna play ranked lol

I don't play ranked because I don't like the no swapping and such, as I've made clear, but I would at least try it more if progression was shared lol

I personally do think they really do need to redesign the final round, it's so lame 😭

[sand monolith]

Wait no don’t give ranked score for playing world tour lol

Just WT points for playing ranked

[vestal cloak]

No WT yea

Just WT progression lol

Regardless of how I feel about it, forcing all these grinds will kill the game over time lol. That and the lack of content 😭. 3 guns and a net 0 maps added. -1 game mode that WASN'T terminal attack. Ridiculous. WT also now gets events regularly that are a week long, so if you don't like the event, tough luck buddy

I guess they intend for you to just go play ranked if you don't like the event that week or something

[abstract pilot]

Does anyone else run goo gun with sledge

[short seal]

I honestly think they just removed Bank It so they could have TD, but still stupid. They could've used that effort to give us a new map as well as a Vegas redesign.

[topaz sparrow]

I keep killing biggers who do that

I think they should add speed to melee weapon users

Because it's just sad

Personally I never use them unless there's a quest for them

[fossil elk]

Melee Weapons

All secondary abilities are now activated by holding down left click or right trigger
And all melee weapons can now block they cannot block bullets They take 80% less damage from each other (Excluding dagger this weapon cannot block)

Perry it allows you to stun your enemy and take no damage it lasts for 0.5 Seconds it is activated by attacking while blocking you cannot spam Perry if you block there’s a cooldown for Perrying for 0.6 seconds if you are perryed you can still move You just can’t attack for 0.5 seconds Perry takes 0.3 seconds
If you don’t perry anything you can’t block for 1 Second (Riot shield cannot parry)(you can also use it to shove people which will stop them from attacking for 0.3 seconds and will push them back 0.5m)

Reload is now dodge dodging makes it so you cannot take any melee damage and take 50% less ranged damage after you dodge you cannot attack for 0.6 seconds you can only dodge every 0.3 seconds dodging makes you move 1m with a side step

You can headshot with melee weapons for 1.5x damage this is to encourage players to aim up so you can crouch to dodge

Delete aim assist for Melee

You cannot animation cancel with anything

Cannot use specializations during attacks

Cannot quick melee during attacks

You cannot skip the recovery animation after the damage happens Including dagger which means you cannot instantly quick melee

Dual blades
Increase the range and accuracy of which it can deflect make it so you can hit a headshot
the final slash is now activated by holding down mouse one or right trigger and does however much damage you’ve built up converts 50% damage deflected into Melee damage
you also gain an extra 1m of lunge every 50 damage deflected
once you use the attack you cannot attack again until you deflect once you use the attack you lose all the damage and lunge range for this attack
main damage decreased to 10
increase main damage by 10 for every consecutive hit but if you miss the boost for the main damage is gone (and you also fall over for 1 second)(you need to hit both swords to get a boost)

Riot shield
You can now sprint while blocking and you can block all damage even fire the hit box is increased by 10% in all directions (while blocking melee you take 0% damage)
you can only shoot their feet while they are sprinting or looking up
Main damage decreased to 49
(You cannot Perry instead you can shield bash while blocking which deals 50 damage shield bash cannot headshot)(you cannot dodge)
When you get hit through the visor, you take 10% damage and can’t get head shot
(While blocking turning speed is not decreased)(headshot multiplayer 3)(when you use the baton the shield and your body moves far less)(you can crouch while blocking)

Sword
Cannot dash during attack are use any other specialization
(You must jump at the right time to get more distance up to 12m if you jump too early or too late you lose speed)
(You can deflect range attacks by blocking you start with 10% ranged damage resistance and chance to deflect but you can get up to 100% every 1 damage is equal to -1% Resistance but if you deflect it and hit you gain back however much you lost for it)
(you can hit head shots)(the way you get to 100% damage resistance and chance to deflect is by getting head shots)

Dagger
Make it so you have to be standing right behind them (0.5 m) and looking at their back and it automatically charges it and you can’t hold it while it’s charging it disable cloaking and it takes 0.19-0.22 seconds to charge but immediately discharges as soon as you look away from their back while charging and stabbing you cannot use any specializations
if you backstab anywhere before or after 0.19-0.22 seconds it only deals 80% of their HP (before you call BS have you heard of the SH 1900)(headshot multiplier 2)(you can headshot backstab but only when you get perfect timing)

Hammer
(Secondary Can only headshot when your crosshair is on their head)

|
|
|
New melees

Heavy

Knuckledusters
108 damage
180 swings per minute
Secondary
Tactical sprint this would allow the heavy to run at the same speed of medium, but holsters the weapon meaning there’s a slight delay between stopping running and attacking
(Has no lunge)
Block only reduces damage by 75%

Flail
100-130
130-160
160-190 damage
110 swings per minute
(perfectly timed hits will deal extra damage
You can also charge up an attack Which takes 0.25 seconds you can charge up 3 tears of attacks)
(blocking makes you spin your flail like a windmill if anyone walks into it, it deals 80 damage and blocks 50% ranged damage and also knocks back opponents 1m
The block spans 0.5m in all directions)

Medium

fire axe
109 damage
120 swings per minute
Secondary
Axe throw throws weapon dealing 200 damage which takes 1 second to throw
Once you throw it you must pick it up
While disarmed you’re given fists 44 damage
240 swings per minute
Blocking only reduces damage by 50% while disarmed but you cannot be blocked
(when it is blocked it gets deflected wherever you were aiming no matter what the weapon is) (secondary damage is 2x head shot damage and can go through multiple people)(main attack has 0.2 m less range because you’re using 2 hands)

claymore
90 damage
110 swings per minute
Secondary
(When you get an elimination you regenerate 100 HP)
When you use your secondary it drains your HP and gives it to all players within a 2m radius
Your HP drains at constant rate of 100 DPS
(heals all teammates and enemies 80 HPS and you cannot move during the secondary and takes 1 second to cancel)(if you get a quick melee elimination it does not give you any boosts)
Also gain 10% damage resistance per elimination for a maximum of 80%
(also get 5% extra damage resistance while blocking per elimination for a maximum of 100%)(you lose all boosts on death)

(before you call BS the dual blades protects you from 75% of all range damage in front of you which means you effectively have over 1000 HP for free and you also deflect it back at them and it’s still bad)

Light

Chainsaw
304 DPS
90 swings per minute
Reload speed 5
It’s a gas powered chainsaw You need to put gas in and rev up once it’s reved up you only have 20 seconds to attack before having to automatically reload once you swing you need to keep your camera and weapon on the opponent otherwise you will be stunned for 0.2 seconds
(Works like gas tick rate 4 ticks a second 76 damage per tick)

[placid needle]

Dual blades and riot shield just need to be removed form the game.

[ornate scaffold]

@ashen hawk What is "TK" you wrote about in suggestions channel?

[abstract pilot]

I like it because I can build an destroy like it's minecraft

[ashen hawk]

guy we dont even have gadgets in this season. last season was 2 weaps and two gadgets. no specializations for s4, s5, s6. s2 was the best ngl

[ashen hawk]

? ThrowingKnives. Like more than half of the weapons i tried against it with my friends were unsuccessful against TK at mid-range. And im talking about me and my friend standing almost completely still (but more or less at the same place), with one of us with TK and the other with the other gun. only shooting. no gadgets or anything. And our aim was the same, on the head too. Any miss would by anyone would lead to us doing it again. to test the damage output.

[ornate scaffold]

Ah I see!

[oblique crypt]

Yes, it's the best

[gaunt terrace]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/s/TFjtYA51P4

[oblique crypt]

What gadgets do you use?

[abstract pilot]

Nothing much, just dome shield, frag grenade, Pyro grenade, and rpg

[oblique crypt]

Try using the anti gravity cube, you can break the ceiling above the cashout and fill the hole with goo once it floats up to you.

It's super fun to pull off

[abstract pilot]

Maybe maybe maybe

[peak monolith]

Whatever yall did to the Medium Nade launcher...
not it fam

[devout stratus]

Better or worse?

[peak monolith]

not a single medium not running it

[devout stratus]

I'm returning for the first time since season 1, that used to be my go to lol

[peak monolith]

it 2 shots

[devout stratus]

It was a little weak back then, but sufficiently spammy and good for lights. Could damage entire teams close together, and get people around corners

[peak monolith]

Light and Medium even on indirect

[devout stratus]

Oh nah it never 2 shot anyone before LMAO, those must be direct

Oh shit even indirect damn hahaha

Looks like I came back at a good time 😂

[plain wasp]

It does 100 damage, not enough to 2 shot med

[peak monolith]

barely

if you're doing literally anything and theres a nade launcher remotely looking at you you die

[royal pier]

Btw, never said it did.

But that doesn't change that the V9S and Deags are weapons being underutilized.

Tried the old Winch + SA1216 combo last night. You can really feel the difference in dmg output.

[sand monolith]

Yeah you don’t play sa12 witch winch as much anymore

[plain wasp]

Goo gun meta when

[sand monolith]

Deagles are good they are just hard to use for casuals and aren’t consistent enough for comp so they don’t really have much of a place

V9S is just outclassed

[distant verge]

Right now. Make it happen.

[royal pier]

I don't get the consistency argument. Were we not talking about top players? I'm old and washed, and even I find them to be one of my stronger weapons.

I actually find them easier than the SA1216.

[sand monolith]

The weapon has inherent spread at all times

[royal pier]

It's about pacing your shots at range.

[sand monolith]

Which also has spread

[plain wasp]

I thought deagles were one with 100% accuracy

[sand monolith]

Nope there is no way to have 100% accuracy with them

[plain wasp]

As long as you don't spam shoot

[sand monolith]

You can test in practice range

[royal pier]

They are if you pace yourself right, or damn well near 100%.

No phone, I did mean near, not neat.

[sand monolith]

Also that doesn’t play into heavy’s role at all in meta

You can’t consistently take space because of the ammo count and you don’t need range

[royal pier]

At close range I just crouch hipfire. So long as you get like one headshot, it beats the SA1216 in ttk.

Also so long as you don't fire to empty the reload isn't that bad.

[sand monolith]

That’s just not consistent enough for high elo

Consistency beats out everything

[plain wasp]

All weapons should get 100% accuracy while ads (except minigun ofc)

[sand monolith]

Deagles need a full rework if that happens

[royal pier]

.8 second difference between empty and tac reload is kinda wild.

[sand monolith]

Shak has that too it’s really lame

[plain wasp]

Just for the first shot atleast, consecutive shots should still be punished

[royal pier]

Eh, it rewards being aware of your mag size.

[sand monolith]

I mean deagles should get a full rework anyways

[royal pier]

Now the MGL32 having a tac reload is really stupid.

You reload the whole cylinder regardless.

[sand monolith]

Not really. It punishes emptying the clip. Your regular reload isn’t really fast so it’s not a reward

[visual geyser]

What weapon is good for heavy?

[royal pier]

I'm not a realism guy, but come on. Make the tac reload the default.

[sand monolith]

SA12 and shak-50

[plain wasp]

Logically tactical reloads should be faster but in game it would feel better for them to be slower

[ornate scaffold]

M60 is better than Shak imo

[sand monolith]

In casual yeah

If you’re not playing ranked then m60 is really good

[royal pier]

That's what I mean, it rewards timing the reload at 1/20.

[sand monolith]

That’s not a reward

A reward would mean your reload is faster. But instead your reload is slower if you don’t do that

Tac reload is just average

[royal pier]

It is faster though? It makes sense to punish mag dumping.

[sand monolith]

Why punish mag dumping

[royal pier]

Especially since the ShAK-50 has some of the highest DPS.

[plain wasp]

It would also make sense to have a risk reward for waiting to reload until your mag is empty

[visual geyser]

how do you use the sa12? it doesn't really do a lot of damage

[sand monolith]

Mag dumping has inherent downsides it doesn’t need to be punished extra

[royal pier]

Gotta tame this somehow.

[sand monolith]

Yeah it’s called range

[sand monolith]

It does a lot you just have to hit center mass and be very close

[plain wasp]

Shak has both bad damage range and the two bullet gimmick

[royal pier]

As I said, you can force fights to be close.

[sand monolith]

Yeah not for free

[royal pier]

It's the guns like the ARs that hit hard at close and mid range that are the problem, not the ShAK-50.

[sand monolith]

That’s something you have to try to do that the other team can stop. That’s a balanced interaction lol

[sand monolith]

Which ARs hit hard at close and mid range besides famas

[royal pier]

I'm always going to be pro giving guns gimmicks and limitations, it's those without any that are the problem.

Also, you're the one that claims the SA1216 is the best Heavy weapon.

[sand monolith]

Yes weapons should have downsides

[royal pier]

They all do well, not being the top doesn't make them mediocre. The problem is that they are never weak except at DMR/sniper range, which barely matters.

Ok gtg for a bit.

[sand monolith]

AKM and FCAR are pretty bad at close range. They will lose trades to almost every heavy weapon and are at a disadvantage vs light cqc

I’m all for medium being worse than L and H in cqc but the ARs are just fine

[final geyser]

Day 5 of asking for a Spear buff:
Among many of the Spear’s problems, one of the most noticeable when using it is it's shockingly low DPS. Here is a list of guns that can out TTK the spear in Melee range while also being able to do damage from range.

Spear:
Light - Medium - Heavy
1.80s - 2.50s- 3.20s

Heavy v Heavy:
.50 Akimbos: 1.83 > 3.2
Lewis Gun: 1.6 > 3.2
M60: 1.6 > 3.2
KS-23: 2.47 > 3.2
SA1216: .80 > 3.2
SHAK-50: 1.57 > 3.2
MGL32: 2.67 > 3.2

Medium v Heavy:
AKM: 1.7 > 2.5
CL-40: 2.3 > 2.5
FCAR: 1.4 > 2.5
Model 1887: 1.6 > 2.5
R .357: 1.6 > 2.5
Pike-556: 2.1 > 2.5
Cerberus-12: 1.8 > 2.5

Light v Heavy:
93R: 1.64 > 1.8
V9S: 1.33 > 1.8
M11: 1.26 > 1.8
XP-54: 1.48 > 1.8
LH1: 1.5 > 1.8
SH1900: .75 > 1.8
M26 Matter: 1.41 > 1.8

Note: These damage numbers come from patch 1.5.5 and takes into account only body shot numbers. The spear numbers come from its M1 standard attack, not the spin. I just wanted to illuminate that even when Spear has the first shot on another player, how often they lose. Thank yall embark for continuing to do an amazing job on my favorite game and please consider buffing the spear in any capacity!

[topaz tendon]

minigun underpowered pls buff

[distant verge]

Underpowered in what way?

[plain wasp]

It's not

[royal pier]

They aren't fine. If there's going to be gimmick weapons like ShAK-50, Deagles, ARN, etc. then there shouldn't be weapons like the ARs and MP5 that are are just good at all ranges with no downsides. Not being the best in a category doesn't count.

[sand monolith]

Generalist weapons are fine

They’re not even that good

[royal pier]

It's like 90% of the weapons I see now.

[sand monolith]

Yeah they’re comfortable weapons

[royal pier]

Almost every Light I see has the MP5.

[sand monolith]

Mp5 needs an ammo nerf but that’s all

[royal pier]

I shouldn't be getting beamed from like 30m by an SMG.

[sand monolith]

That’s just a realism argument

[royal pier]

No?

SMGs are close range weapons.

[sand monolith]

Says who

[royal pier]

Almost every game ever with them?

[sand monolith]

I’ve played plenty of games with mid range SMGs

[royal pier]

Then what are ARs role, then?

[sand monolith]

In the finals they’re longer range and slower ttk for the most part

Which is how it works in the game currently

[royal pier]

They aren't though, there's a reason we're seeing more FCAR now. Good at both close and mod range, and with less recoil now too.

[sand monolith]

We aren’t seeing more FCAR in ranked at all

I don’t judge balance by what I see in world tour

[royal pier]

I'm not talking about WT

[sand monolith]

?

Oh well idk ranked metas have no FCAR in them

[ornate juniper]

Lol

[sand monolith]

?

[royal pier]

https://youtu.be/Wj9UULKAK6U

This high ranked guy disagrees.

Only thing I took issue with is them claiming the minigun isn't that bad and that they successfully used it vs top players.

Seems like they had a good game or two then decided it was decent lol.

[sand monolith]

He also thinks sword is the 2nd best weapon on light

Also the minigun is good

It needs a spread buff and range nerf for consistency vs lights but it is a good weapon

[royal pier]

Did you actually watch that part? Or did you jump to the end?

[sand monolith]

I jumped to the end I’m not watching his schizo rant

[royal pier]

You can do the same with the M60 with no major downside.

[sand monolith]

His medium list is also bad. Model in B tier is laughable

[sand monolith]

No you can’t. The m60 doesn’t prevent anyone from entering the room you’re in

[royal pier]

So earlier you said high ranks know more, but when one disagrees with you, they're wrong.

[sand monolith]

Most high ranked players would call his list a joke

But believe it or not, we’re not a hivemind

Im going by what we’re seeing in meta team comps. And FCAR has no place. I know one ruby player that runs FCAR and his reasoning is literally just that he likes the feel of the recoil

[royal pier]

He said that Sword is very good against some types of players, but not others.

[sand monolith]

Yeah, it’s good against players who don’t have thumbs and bad against others

[royal pier]

So them seeing the FCAR is just a flat out lie, huh?

[sand monolith]

No, their list was made a few days after the fcar got a buff when people were trying it. It’s not a huge mystery as to why he was seeing it

[royal pier]

I can't take you seriously at this point. I've seen several high rank players talk about how good FCAR is now.

[sand monolith]

Like..?

[royal pier]

Also, you straight-up lied before

[sand monolith]

???

[royal pier]

FCAR does not lose vs the LMGs assuming equally skilled players.

[sand monolith]

I didn’t say that it did

wait I read that wrong oops. But also you’re wrong

[royal pier]

You did tho

[sand monolith]

FCAR kills heavy in 1.6s while LMGs kill med in 1.2s. Where’s the lie

[royal pier]

FCAR is easier to get headshots with than the LMGs

[sand monolith]

You are reading it incorrectly lol

[royal pier]

Zafferman said they wanted to find a way to show ttk based on HS%, just not sure how yet.

[ornate juniper]

Fcar is one of meta guns in high elo because it's very well balanced and easier to play with than some other M guns

[sand monolith]

The ARs lose ttk races to the LMGs

Which is exactly what I said and is exactly what’s shown on the graph

[royal pier]

Only with straight body shots.

[sand monolith]

It loses with all headshots too???

[royal pier]

And guess which gun has less recoil, and thus is easier to consistently headshot with?

[sand monolith]

Dude lmfao

[royal pier]

Jfc.

You don't ever see all body or all head with good players.

[sand monolith]

Well, if a fun wins with all bodyshots AND all headshots, it’ll win with a mix of both as well. Hope this helps!

[royal pier]

FCAR has lower recoil, hence easier headshots, hence higher HS %.

You're being intentionally dense.

[sand monolith]

Bro LMAO

Tell me you’ve never played in a high tier lobby without telling me

Both weapon types have insanely easy recoil + recoil smoothing is consistently used in high elo so it doesn’t matter

[royal pier]

One is still easier come tf on.

[sand monolith]

Completely subjective

[royal pier]

You're being an elitist and anyone who disagrees is suddenly wrong, even a prominent high rank.

They put MGL32 low though so clearly I despise them /s

[sand monolith]

Dude you’re speculating based on fucking recoil over what happens in the lobbies I play in and I’m telling you you’re wrong because you’re wrong

[royal pier]

Post rank

[sand monolith]

You will not see an AR beat an lmg in a point blank ttk race in a good lobby

I’ve been diamond since the game released and haven’t played s6 ranked yet

Besides s3 for obvious reasons

[royal pier]

Cause idgaf, but you clearly do.

[sand monolith]

We are arguing meta??? Rank matters????

[royal pier]

Wait. Wait. Wait. So FCAR isn't being used in ranked, but also you haven't played it yet.

[sand monolith]

Yes I watch streams from friends playing consistently

[royal pier]

I don't use the word clown often...

[sand monolith]

Sorry sorry. I should have realized that the weapons I see used in high rank only matter if I’m playing. Cause friends lobbies in Ruby aren’t real or something

Like lmfao

[royal pier]

I have no proof of this from you.

[sand monolith]

I don’t really care?

[royal pier]

I see footage from others on YouTube.

[sand monolith]

You saw a tierlist that put sword as the 2nd best light weapon and put model in B tier

[royal pier]

I wouldn't say well balanced if we're talking when compared to other weapons, but I assume you mean in the "it's almost never weak and has a chance to win vs most other things" sense.

[royal pier]

Cause Model is good? Being outclassed by the Cerberus doesn't make it bad.

[plain wasp]

"Erm but sword is op please nerf embork"

[sand monolith]

If you can describe why FCAR would be used over Cerberus/pike/famas and what its role in a high elo team comp is then I’ll say you’re right

[royal pier]

That's the thing, the guy didn't even say that.

[plain wasp]

The shotguns are actually so much more annoying than sword

[sand monolith]

Yes it is good. And for some reason it was placed below FCAR and AKM lmao

[royal pier]

Because it's outclassed by them? Duh?

[sand monolith]

LOL

[sand monolith]

Waiting on this. Gtg but ping me if you do it

[ornate juniper]

Sword is one of the best L weapons and the strongest and easiest to use among all melee weapons in the game

[plain wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-bingus-this-post-has-been-fact-checked-this-post-has-been-fact-checked-by-real-this-post-gif-13024796575344884427

[royal pier]

Because it's solid at most regular engagement ranges and isn't a burst weapon, which some dislike.

Its recoil is also just really easy now.

[sand monolith]

“Isn’t a burst weapon” doesn’t work when talking about it meta. That’s just preference. Meta doesn’t revolve around picking worse weapons because you like them

[royal pier]

And going back to my main point as to why the ARs should do less damage, the changes to animation canceling have drastically nerfed several weapons.

I'm fine with them fixing that, but outside of the SA1216, they were already less used than the ARs/SMGS, so now at all levels you're seeing mostly the same handful of weapons.

That's a stale meta.

[ornate juniper]

"I wouldn't say well balanced" — why not?
Isn't it the same you said later in that message?
I believe M ARs r pretty well balanced except maybe Famas

[restive plover]

Sword players when I stand at a slight elevation:

[plain wasp]

Sword players when their target is more than 10m away

[ornate juniper]

That counters every melee weapon xD
Sword is the one that suffers less from this

[royal pier]

They're balanced if you're talking about comparing them against each other and LMGs/SMGs, but they keep everything else from being relevant by being easier to use and having high damage.

[plain wasp]

Sword players when the enemy has a gun:

[plain wasp]

That's desync not sword

[royal pier]

As if Light doesn't have tools to get the first hit before they can start firing.

[plush harbor]

ok so we have mr schizo talking to mr formal, with mr boosted to ruby in the sidelines cheering mr formal on

[ornate juniper]

Yeah, you're just cringe and don't want your broken toy to be balanced just like winch users

[plush harbor]

this is peak

[ornate juniper]

MrCringelord arrived xD

[plain wasp]

I could literally make the same argument for a hammer nerf

[restive plover]

This is obviously server jank more than anything else. The rest of the time he would have to clamber and you could just kill him instantly.

[plain wasp]

Which one am i

[plush harbor]

not even a mr

[ornate juniper]

You switch to hammer+everything except bronen winch, I swith to sword+dash and we go several WT and see who will be more successful with setup he never played b4

[plush harbor]

idk i didnt read ur messages

[plain wasp]

Acting as if I only play sword

[ornate juniper]

Acting as if you're protecting sword as a sword main

[plain wasp]

I've played plenty of nearly every build, in fact I mained Sledge once upon a time

[plain wasp]

I defend sword not only because it's not broken but because I've literally never run into a sword player that made my game miserable

I just shoot them

[ornate juniper]

Well, that doesn't mean such sword players don't exist lol

[restive plover]

https://tenor.com/view/the-movie-room-hes-true-mouthfuls-mouthfuls69-youtooz-gif-19825918

[royal pier]

It'd be a shame if server jank was a persistent part of the game.

Oh.

[plain wasp]

I have over 2000 games, and not one time I found one

[royal pier]

If they can't fix the jank, they gotta balance around said jank.

[restive plover]

Hitting people miles above your own head still isn't common, nor should we balance weapons around it.

[plain wasp]

If anything I'm the menace on sword

[royal pier]

Also sword is a monster in the first two matches where third parties are a thing.

[ornate juniper]

2000 QC or PS games I guess?

[plain wasp]

Which I haven't even been playing sword recently because I've been using minigun, and no, I play exclusively wt and rarely ranked

Before wt it was bank it

[royal pier]

It's like how I'm best on Spear when I'm not the focus and dive in to punish grouped up enemies.

[plain wasp]

As per most close range high damage weapons

[plain wasp]

They can't really balance around something inconsistent as server lag

[royal pier]

Sword is far easier to get in and out with. Heavy has to commit to staying in the fray.

[plain wasp]

Heavy has the 200 extra health and dome shield to support it

[royal pier]

They can make the ttk higher so that there's more time to reaxt5to jank.

[plain wasp]

Also server lag affects everything and is balanced in that way, it's the reason for dying around corners

[ornate juniper]

H has ZERO mobility options, is much slower, much bigger and thus much more team reliant than L

[plain wasp]

That's how class tradeoffs work

[royal pier]

Sword kills a Heavy in two lunges and a regular swing. They also have tools to ambush and get that first hit before they react.

Not to mention phantom strike

[plain wasp]

I don't use phantom strikes, they should probably be removed

[royal pier]

I agree, but until they are, you have to account for them existing.

So weird that phantom strike is still around, but they already fixed weapon swap canceling spear spin.

[plain wasp]

You can still emote wheel cancel it

There was probably some other reason for fixing that in particular

[royal pier]

Yeah but I think it still says something that they went out of their way to fix one and not the other lol.

Seems so obvious, don't allow access to emotes/emoticons while in an action like attacking.

Just don't let the menu open.

[ornate juniper]

Yeah, but it turns out that mobility tools, faster speed and smaller hitbox r much more useful than extra 200 HP when it comes to melee gameplay

I also already described in details a couple of times why sword is easiest and most powerful melee weapon at the same time

[royal pier]

To make melee Heavy work, you need your team to be supporting you, and to land your Lockbolt so they can't just run away.

[plain wasp]

I played melee heavy before lockbolt was even added

Didn't mean to respond oops

[royal pier]

I can make spear work, but the effort required vs just using the M60/ShAK-50 is drastically more.

[ornate juniper]

Me too
You said u mostly play WT?
I can hop on dash+sword and instantly become better than average WT Light with firearms even though I'm H main from the start of s2

[royal pier]

And yeah, one thing I never got around to was pointing out is that the balance matters to mid and low level, and with the player population the game has atm, I'd say it matters more than at high level.

[ornate juniper]

Lockbolt isn't necessary but yeah, without team you won't do much as melee H

[royal pier]

I should specify Spear in this case. Makes it easier to land the omega spin.

Lockbolt also means that you can take Charge instead of winch. I haven't edited it yet, but I have a clip of me deleting someone by multi-hitting them in an instant.

Lockbolt is so good for punishing grouped up teams, which isn't uncommon.

I haven't bothered clipping it, but a devious thing to do after the Lockbolt hits is to toss a goo nade between them and the base of the bolt.

[ornate juniper]

Every time I wanted to try Spear even in casual modes I just went to practice range and I couldn't understand how I could make Spear secondary attack work :D

Secondary attack range is soo weird + I can't stop its animation b4 it ends

[royal pier]

Jumping helps.

Moves your head hitbox and gives you a little more mobility.

[ornate juniper]

Gonna try it someday

[royal pier]

Winching into spin is also good, but make sure the spin will finish them on the second hit. That third one is slower for some reason.

It's very much a "hit your combo, or lose" way to play.

[shell sonnet]

i love to drop down while a team is stealing

i usually use 2x destruction explosives and goo gun for easy high ground and 1v1's

[royal pier]

Not a drop down from me, but close.

[shell sonnet]

if you go down or they do, doesnt matter, someone is being dropped
nice clip

[plain wasp]

I've been running goo gun minigun and smokes

Smoking your goo actually forces enemies into the way you want

[shell sonnet]

ive been seeing goo gun a little more frequently recently

[plain wasp]

Then you can turn them into Swiss cheese

[royal pier]

I think I'm just a junkie for weapons with high team wipe potential.

[shell sonnet]

not suprising tho, that shit is awesome

[royal pier]

The spin up seems like it'd get in the way there.

I've been preferring winch because it barely interrupts the spin up

[royal pier]

Just winning < winning in style

[shell sonnet]

reminds me, i got one of the "the finals™" clips of all time the other day

still need to edit it

probably overplaying it a little, but it did very much piss me off when it happened

perfect situation
whole team clumped up, easy splash
solo play almost wins

alas, the finals™

[ornate juniper]

Goo Gun bro 🤜 🤛

[shell sonnet]

i think the 3rd guy may have been 3rd partied? not sure
either way

[ornate juniper]

Man, that's so satisfying to see

[shell sonnet]

i still gotta work on my manual 🥲
gonna take me another 5 months to get in the mood again

[abstract kestrel]

uniroincally I think the best melee weapon is the riot shield, and only when you're not actually using it as a weapon.

just use it to bully people and take space, you really only kill people who don't respect it

[shell sonnet]

i kinda like the idea of protecting people during a steal, but mesh already does that pretty well

and you run the risk of stopping your mates steal since its technically a wall afaik?

[ornate juniper]

Mesh is basically a huge "hit me with a glitch" sign for a L opponents xD

[royal pier]

That first part reminds me that this strat is probably even better now with the explosion can change.

[ornate juniper]

Are you talking about goo gun?

[shell sonnet]

WHO TF THOUGH OF THAT I LOVE IT

thats so fucking stupid i swear down

[shell sonnet]

riot shield
but goo does stop too

[royal pier]

I'm that dumbass

[shell sonnet]

hmmmmm
you gave me a cursed idea
probably shit but i need to test something brb

[ornate juniper]

Man, I have some GOOd clips to share too, but I'm away from pc :(

[ornate juniper]

Didn't know riot shield itself can stop the steal

[shell sonnet]

if theres some tech in there (and you remember) please ping me, i wanna add as much to the goo guide as possible

[shell sonnet]

i think it does
never tried it, but i saw people complain about it multiple times now

[ornate juniper]

There's a goo guide?

[shell sonnet]

speaking of which, i think you were here last time i asked ben, but just to be sure
do you have any tech i could add?

[royal pier]

I haven't been able to do it as much, my friend who took Data Reshaper understandably dislikes the game now.

[shell sonnet]

im making one anyways
but im shit at writing
i trust that any interested person will be smart enough to understand it, thats halfway to a requirement to using goo gun anyways

[royal pier]

Honestly the biggest thing for goo gun with me is just treating it like it's still semi-auto. Spraying can block you/goo you as well.

I wish they had made full auto the alt fire.

[shell sonnet]

NOOOOOO

[royal pier]

Oh wait one thing, gooing the floor below the cash out makes it so enemies can't Demat drop it.

[shell sonnet]

NOOOOO

IT FUCKING WORKS

BEEEEEEEEEN

[royal pier]

And if you bring flamethrower you can play "the floor is lava."

[shell sonnet]

YOU BROKE THE GAME

[royal pier]

Oopsies.

[ornate juniper]

Yeah, I'll post here tomorrow

[lean dagger]

fix goo nades why do they take forever to throw

[shell sonnet]

i introduce, nuke 2.0

[royal pier]

Oh shit idk if that worked before.

Cause I feel like I tried it. Maybe due to the can change?

Does C4 stay armed on it?

[shell sonnet]

it only changed to explode on first contact except for extremely low angles, shouldnt impact this afaik

[shell sonnet]

of course, since you dont pick it up

[royal pier]

I feel like it was more chaotic before.

[royal pier]

We should call it "The Torpedo."

[shell sonnet]

it still is, maybe the floor guides it?
lemme try different explosives placements

front heavy explosives might try to guide it down, and it cant go down since its on the floor

[royal pier]

If you used goo/barricades to make a curved/V-shaped backboard on the cash box, bigger target.

[shell sonnet]

still is on throw*

[royal pier]

Maybe try putting one mine on either side of the center like "wings."

[shell sonnet]

also, pyro mines dont spawn their aoe

[royal pier]

Yeah there's some weird interaction there. Maybe try manually detonating it with C4?

[shell sonnet]

i think its just based on what theyre attached to, its attached to a prop that gets destroyed, hence gone

[royal pier]

It doesn't like to detonate mid air, so if they're slightly touching the ground it might help.

[shell sonnet]

no

[shell sonnet]

will do

huh, that seems to work?

tried again, didnt now
weird

i see 2 possible problems

either, i detonated the c4 too late or the c4 and the mine need to be close

now i had the mine on top of the c4 and manually detonated, but nothing
weird

any ideas?

[royal pier]

Just lower the DPS of the hitscan full autos and DMRs to compensate for the loss of animation cancels.

[royal pier]

I feel like there's some system trying to stop fire hovering in the air, but it's inconsistent.

[shell sonnet]

probably

we love code spaghetti

[royal pier]

Especially odd since tossing a Pyro Mine in the air and quick meleeing it can cause that.

[shell sonnet]

either way, im adding set up for an easy topedo to my additions for the guide

[royal pier]

You know idk if I've tried tossing a Pyro Mine and hitting it with spear to avoid self damage.

[shell sonnet]

due to the increased range?

[royal pier]

Yeah

[shell sonnet]

im pretty sure it only deals like 20 damage without the aoe tho
(unless youre ontop of it)

[royal pier]

Yeah I only messed around with it for weapons like the KS-23 with wonky breakpoints.

[shell sonnet]

avoid, as far as i can tell, no, but since youre fruther its less
i got 20 randomly just now, and while trying to stay far 40
dont ask me how

[royal pier]

Cause that little extra damage makes you need one fewer shot.

[royal pier]

Embark magic.

[shell sonnet]

reminds me

1 sec

[royal pier]

I've never remembered to actual do the "Pocket Pyro" in a match lol.

[shell sonnet]

im being an idiot, might take a bit longer

[shell sonnet]

you could do this

might be more helpful to this
more likely to remember out of combat, and you wont forget in combat as its right in your face

also gets to recharge early

[royal pier]

Suppose you could also drop it then winch first, since doing a shot-winch-shot is too risky now cause you can get stuck in the pump animation.

[shell sonnet]

ok so, thats weird

if you winch a dummy, the mine triggers before you pull them, but they still take full damage

probably due to the range changes

needs some testing, im having devious ideas

yup

although, is it any different than what it used to be?
if you got winched you couldnt do anything anyways, if you get winched into a mine stack and die, or die remotely, its all the same

[royal pier]

Yeah I've done it with underhand frag tosses as well. Just jump back as you winch and you'll do only a little self damage.

[hardy dust]

Reverting the qm changes

And it should be a change to all weapons, not just model

[royal pier]

I disagree, animation cancels are jank and make the server/network problems even more blatant.

[hardy dust]

They weren't that jank, and the issue in that case would be fixing the server and network issues instead of trying to make everything worse just so the effects aren't as bad

[royal pier]

The other person doesn't even see the melee most of the time.

[shell sonnet]

im kinda glad its gone

[hardy dust]

When was melee mentioned?

[royal pier]

Here?

[shell sonnet]

^quick melee

or what do you mean?

[hardy dust]

Mb I thought you were talking abt melee weapons