💣┇weapons-gadgets

[fleet brook]

Also getting revived usually you're a fair ways away from your team but at least it would give you all your util back and reload your gun

[shell sonnet]

I mean, comperatively youre right

That defib would be dogwater compared to current defib

But that thing is incredibly strong and used by 99% of people

[shell sonnet]

Im not quit sure if you intended that as positive or negative opinion on my idea

[fleet brook]

Positive getting your stuff back

Negative being away from the action and having to run back

[shell sonnet]

Obviously it could be a bit tedious to need to run back

But i think that most players would be relieved that they didnt wipe and get a chance to make a comeback

I cant really think of any other ways to rebalance defib without just making it bad to use

[chrome bobcat]

What if you could shoot at the holograms from the Defibs

[shell sonnet]

Then youre occupied

Either you shoot the hologram and the medium gets to win the 1v1, or you shoot the medium and the person will be revived to fight you after
Either way youre also using ammo, which makes finishing the other person off way less forgiving, or just straight up forcing a reload, which makes the situation even more bleak

And you need to be basically camping the statue, not fun

By all means, thats better than what we have now

But still not good

[vital forge]

I know right! Since back stabs already work from the front they should give it like a 10-meter range for backstab huh?

[chrome bobcat]

True. There has to be a way so that you can't just Defib mid fight. You should be Incentivized to put the statue somewhere safe before reviving. As of right now you can just Defib mid fight and stand behind the hologram for cover.

[chrome bobcat]

Mmhh where have I heard about Facestabs before...?

[shell sonnet]

@chrome bobcat
Wrote something about it a little earlier

Maybe you wanna give your opinion on this idea

[chrome bobcat]

Yea I've read and honestly I don't want to get punished for my teammates fault

[shell sonnet]

What exactly do you consider punishment

That you need to run back?

[vital forge]

Probably one of the 75 Clips I've posted of it happening hoping for feedback from any devs lol

[chrome bobcat]

No, that a teammate just wasted my coin

[shell sonnet]

I mean, we already do get punished for our teammates misplays

If a medium just runs into open fire, defibs you and then dies, he just reset your respawn timer

If you respawn far away, you at least get to engage the situation how you like, not being forced to do it where ever you gor defibbed

[shell sonnet]

I edited it because it seems to have been unclear
(Not sure if i need to change it further)

It would not consume tokens

You respawn as if you had used a coin

But without one being used up

[chrome bobcat]

Oohhh I get it now. Honestly idk that's a pretty weird change but I'm not opposed to it. Tho with a 10% wipe it honestly wouldn't be all that useful (if it's meant to prevent teamwipes that is)

[shell sonnet]

It saves the cash from a wipe
It saves the time from a wipe
(Maybe a coin if you know you cant win)
Possibly allows for movement shinanigens by respawning teammates somewhere else

It may be a bit limited usage, but id prefer that to what it does currently

Maybe it could come along some other buffs to make it a bit more usable

Maybe give it 2 charges, so a lone medium can defib both of his teammates and just need to worry about getting out himself

A full team reset to allow for a timely retry could be pretty valuable

[shell sonnet]

Do you have any possible buff ideas that might play into the new downside in an interesting way?

[chrome bobcat]

Honestly no idea also it would be faster to get teamwiped than go back to your teammates and revive them

[shell sonnet]

True, but you do loose cash and time

But maybe that really isnt enough, thats why i want to search for buff ideas

But if it came down to it, id rather have defib be underpowered

You can stop using something underpowered but you cant stop an enemy from abusing something broken

As long as defib remains as strong as it is, everyone that wants to play something else will suffer
Reducing the fun, experimentation and variety of this game

[plucky spade]

A thought for defib from me is to simply remove any spawn protection after being revived. Thus making sure that the medium has to back off from the fight, allowing you to gain ground

[chrome bobcat]

Yea the fact a rezed player can deal damage before taking it is crazy

[shell sonnet]

How long even is the spawn protection right now?

[plucky spade]

1 second approx

Like why do you have spawn protection? It is your revivers job to get you somewhere where you can reorient yourself, not the game's

[shell sonnet]

Weird, felt like less to me

I still have an issue with that though, let me gather my thoughts rq

[plucky spade]

Surely, but defib was supposed to just speed up the whole process of pickup statue, hide, revive for 8 seconds(?), slap back into the fight. Now it's just send more dudes

[shell sonnet]

Even without spawn protection, as soon as they get the defib off, it turns into a 2v1

If you shoot the medium first you will be out of ammo when defib finishes (alongside likely being wounded)
And if you try to not shoot them, so you can catch the defib target while theyre injured, then the medium is just free to engage you

It remains as a number advantage, keeping it pretty much just as strong as right now

[plucky spade]

Yeah but you're thinking of a series of 1v1s

[shell sonnet]

I mean, how else should i think about it?
Is there a mistake in my logic?

[plucky spade]

Yes, you should lose in such a position either way because you were fighting 1v2

If both teams are of equal skill

[shell sonnet]

I have an issue with that again, give me a minute, ill brb

so, in general, i agree that a 2v1 should be lost in a majority of cases
(exceptions being extreme examples like 2x dagger vs flamethrower heavy)

[round mesa]

https://tenor.com/view/lol-omg-lol-laugh-gif-12956385894842429484

[shell sonnet]

but this isnt a 2v1 in the usual sense
you aren't running into 2 people head on

you (skillfully) eliminate an opponent
the enemy team is now down 1 player
they either need to try and win against your team with a number disadvantage, waste a coin, or get the statue and revive

that last point especially is really important, since you can easily follow up on it and attack someone standing still during a revive

all of these aid in helping you win the match, by either:
-having a higher chance to wipe them and keep the cashout (should they try to fight)
-wasting respawn tokens (which might help you later on)
or
-having the enemy risk further damage by reviving (which further strengthens point 1)

all of which comes from the effort you had to eliminate a player
you are being rewarded for your plays

by increasing your likelyhood to win

but with defib that changes

you killed someone
but instead of being able to further capitalize on it, you only waste the enemies defib charge

after you wasted all of their defibs, your plays start to matter

it basically increases the effort you have to put in to get a reward
which also comes along being more likely to make a mistake and die during it all

[plucky spade]

Yeah but with my suggestion the revived player becomes an afterthought because there is also a team waiting to feast on the fella being revived in the middle of the gunfight

[shell sonnet]

im not quit sure if i could explain that well, but i hope you do understand it

[plucky spade]

You think that you only play 1v3s. No you dont

Plus teamplay > personal skill

And defib is that in its simplest form

The solution should revolve around making defib revives a conscious choice

And not ah I got defib imma use it

[shell sonnet]

thats the thing, before they use defib, they also hit your team

so lets say a 3v3 happens
both teams take damage and have casualties and 1 player is left on both sides
but 1 team has defibs while the other does not

it would be a 1v1 now, but instead the enemy gets to defib, maybe you can kill the medium in time, but now low on ammo and likely injured you die to the 2nd one and wipe

the proportions stay the same, regardless if its 1 medium turning a 1v1 into a 1v2 or a 3v3 into a 3v6

[shell sonnet]

i dont fight 1v3's
what i do is kill a lone target in a (hopefully skillful) 1v1

but instead of being rewarded by getting the opportunity to punish a careless revive, or being more likely to overpower and wipe them
i only get to waste a defib charge at best or at worst, die trying to prevent it

[chrome bobcat]

Witerally why I hate Defib. Takes 0 skill and just negates your hard work

[shell sonnet]

teamplay should be more powerful than personal skill

but that should also go the other way

a single item on 1 person shouldn't force you to 2v1 them to match it

you alone probably cant match 1 medium with defib
you need 2 people to match 1 medium with defib
(given, since the revived person only has 50% hp, they are at a disadvantage in a 2v2, but you still need 2 people, otherwise youre out of luck)

[shell sonnet]

its a bit of a long shot, but i also had another idea regarding this

when you defib someone, the medium regains a guns worth of damage, so they double their dps
but it also adds 50% of that classes hp to the total hp pool

an option would be to make the medium share their hp with the defib target
they still gain a guns worth of dps, but the total health pool of the players stays the same
and since they are now injured, you have the opportunity to quickly dispatch them

while you do fight 2 people, they're both at 50% hp, so you still collectively only need to kill 1 players worth of hp instead of 1 and 1/2 (with overlapping dps)
(which is still a little strong considering you do that to keep the 1 kill you already got)

it would force the medium to consider if its worth it for half their hp, or if they should risk a normal revive
it also makes revive chains less impactful, since they each only gain 50% of whats left down the line

this doesn't come without problems though

it would be the only item that innately hurts the user
and it can be circumvented by heal beam, enforcing the meta even harder

but its an option

[plucky spade]

I think that removing spawn protection is more than enough because you simply mine the statue or drop a nade at the revived guy. They are most probably on low ammo/no gadgets, half hp and disoriented, therefore an easy picking, and if you catch the medium in the act? You've already won the 1v1

[unborn stirrup]

Birdshotting a half health light from like 50m with all six shots of the Model is what makes people cry that its overpowered. I seriously don't get the demand to nerf it.

[hardy dust]

no, its that it has absurd burst and dueling potential

2 shotting mediums with a model from 15m

[unborn stirrup]

It really isn't that much stronger.

[hardy dust]

it just needs a range nerf

[delicate grove]

I and my friend have found a strat for power shift (yes, I know, irrelevant) when the other team has possession: equip grenade launcher on medium and then for spec do turret, then use gas mine, expos. mine, and jump pad. Shove all the mines on a pot or other carriable or canister, preferably a red or grey barrel. Jump pad onto the platform and then chuck the carriable on it. Then you can choose between a turret or shooting them with grenade laucher, if they all die or run off, turret. If they are still on, shoot them.

It’s seriously so fun, please try it out

[cunning kettle]

Did you just rediscover nukes

[plucky spade]

More like suicide bombing

[cunning kettle]

https://tenor.com/view/banzai-hachimaki-gif-20023547

[vague silo]

i hated nukes so much

[glad bluff]

Can u guys imagine a dubstep gun like the one in saints row getting into the finals?

[twin ermine]

#bringbacknukes #makethegamegreatagain

[inner terrace]

What about a gun skin that plays music when you shoot it

[valid goblet]

light needs a glitch pulse

[vale obsidian]

what you mean

[valid goblet]

if u ever played div one uk the sonar pulse have that but be a glitch coming from the lights body demat should have a glitch effect on the demated area too , to have area denial imo

[dreamy hare]

dubstep gun from saints row 4

[shell sonnet]

i had a little time to think, here are the problems i see with that solution

-you need to run specific items
depending on class and playstyle you want different items, which also greatly impacts the fun and self-expression of the player
with this solution, while undoubtedly better than what we have now, you still force people to run a few very specific items to effectively retaliate
(something like dagger, smoke and thermal vision normally greatly benefits from terrain destruction, which you must give up for this)

-timing and human error
defib takes around 3 seconds to complete after initiation
a frag takes around 2.5 seconds to explode
so you will need to hold the frag for at least a little bit into the defib animation (and probably a bit longer than .5 seconds because humans aren't perfect)
during that time the medium is now free to shoot you, making it even less likely you can eliminate them

mines are a little better since you don't have to hold them, but if you miss the statue there is a decent chance the defib target can just run the other way upon completion, forcing you to throw another mine if you want to make sure they get hit
that's more time wasted during which the medium can shoot you
and light for example doesn't have mines, not great for them

-effort and reward
all of this is more stuff you have to do, to keep the kill you had to put in effort for
you need to use items you may not like, have another skill-check on timing it right (so more effort and opportunity to fail), take a disadvantage in a following 1v1
just so the effort (and maybe also items) you already had is not nullified and wasted

and if you still do it in spite of all of this, there is still another problem
-the defibbed will be punished for his teammates actions

[plucky spade]

The last part is intentional, because the teammate will not be able to regain the member, therefore trading at the very least 1 for 1 and instant rez

[shell sonnet]

they get defibbed and instantly die again without being able to prevent it
that would be frustrating, which is probably the reason the i-frames exist to begin with

so removing them would probbaly not be a good idea

thats why i would want the repawn mechanic
it comes with the risk of facing a 2v3 or needing to hide for a bit
is still powerful because you can avoid wipes incredibly easily
and it puts them in a situation where the defib target get to make the choice on what to do, without just being a free kill

[plucky spade]

I think that your approach is kinda bad because then the defibrillator is different than just pressing E

[shell sonnet]

they wont regain the member, but get a (possibly big) 1v1 advantage against you
there is a good chance you wont win, after which the medium can just revive normally

in that case all you did was "waste" a defib

[ashen robin]

Why the hell does the 4th place team always ambush the 3rd place team while the first two places sit there doing nothing lmao

[plucky spade]

But why do you think it would work like that and you wont just jump the med trying to rez?

[ashen robin]

I hate that they have a hitbox when they are reviving off defrib that sh it blocked my grenade

[plucky spade]

Why do you intentionally keep putting yourself in 1v2s?

[ashen robin]

You used to be able to grapple while reviving lmao good old

[ashen robin]

I’ll 1v5 me vs the world

I won’t win but I’ll do it and make you mad 😠

[plucky spade]

Cuh got the spirit

[shell sonnet]

i mean, that can also be a good thing

reviving normally comes with risks
being "E but instant, low risk" is not very interesting and makes pretty much every medium ever run it because of how strong it is

this would make it a bit more interesting and the added risk would make it feel less bad to face, since the medium doesn't gain and immediate advantage

[plucky spade]

Well gadgets are supposed to provide advantages either way, doesn't feel good getting hit by a glitch mine either

It just feels too much if anything

[shell sonnet]

because if you go for the medium you aren't taking care of the defib target, once they're back they will shoot you
fighting 2 people back to back is very likely to kill you

thats why normal revives are so vital
they either put themselves at great risk reviving then and there, or waste more time by going somewhere "safe"
where you can also still follow them
you have (not sure exactly how long) ~6 seconds to find them and fill a sitting duck with bullets, its incredibly risky to them
being able to just straight up avoid all this risk for the almost the same benefit is broken

[shell sonnet]

i think ive already explained that yesterday, hold on

[shell sonnet]

here

[shell sonnet]

advantages, yes
but defib is not an advantage, defib is a fight winner
its so strong that, unless you have something as strong to match it, you will loose

why do you think everyone runs defib?

they need to fight fire with fire

[hardy dust]

If you defib in a spot where they would die instantly they deserve to die

Remove the Iframes on defib

[shell sonnet]

it would help, but it still leaves the defib user at an advantage
i think it needs something else, maybe even a complete overhaul

[hardy dust]

Being able to destroy ghosts would prevent mindless revives

[shell sonnet]

also no, wait 1 sec

[shell sonnet]

here

[hardy dust]

Defib should still have value tho, forcing you to decide between the 2 can be useful while still nerfing it

[shell sonnet]

glitch trap is different
it just gives an advantage
the enemy can still just shoot you and win

the only situations in which i think glitch mine is a fight decider is if its used to deny the usual fight deciders like defib and rpg
(and some niche cases like dash+melee lights)

[hardy dust]

Glitch trap is way too powerful

[shell sonnet]

imo, regardless of who you decide to take care of, the other person will likely kill you

[hardy dust]

It gives a massive advantage and can easily win team fights

[hardy dust]

But it would give a better chance, also shooting the ghost reduces the hp they have upon revive

So ex : ghost has 125 hp, you shoot it for 75 and they spawn at 50 hp

[shell sonnet]

its better, true, but still too strong

either the medium kills you while you're occupied, or the ghost kills you once you're out of ammo and low hp

[hardy dust]

It really depends, but in a situation where it's a 1v1 but one player has defib and someone to res, they should have the advantage

[shell sonnet]

whats your opinion on this idea?

[hardy dust]

Pretty bad

It feels really counter intuitive

[shell sonnet]

its not an advantage though, its a pretty much surefire win
having that happen to you after you already killed someone just adds insult to injury

[hardy dust]

It wouldn't be that useful mid fight and outside of fighting it would just be worth reviving normally

[fleet brook]

Also ik long time

But defib wouldn't be so powerful if reviving someone didn't take eighteen years

[hardy dust]

What about
Destructible ghosts, hp cap on revive (can't heal until natural regen) and no I frames

[shell sonnet]

that was kind of the intention
i don't think there is a good option for having it useful in fights without being frustrating and potentially busted

its more of a last ditch effort to make sure you dont wipe
saving time and the cash penalty

id rather have it as an under-powered item you can use if you like, rather than a must use meta-shaping items that annoys every that opposes it

[fleet brook]

Tbf every defib fight is a 2v2 if there getting immediately picked up or started on

If meds team isn't playing together then the med essentially has a dead slot

[hardy dust]

Then it would be basically useless and no one would run it

[fleet brook]

I smell lifeline rez after the sheild removal and it's notoriously bad

[shell sonnet]

it would still be just as powerful, but less useful since it saves less time, true

but imo the revive time is pretty much perfectly fit to give time to follow up on your kill and punish a reckless revive

making that shorter cuts out the reward you get from kills, not good

[fleet brook]

Tbf it's almost never practical to revive in this game

[hardy dust]

Ehh... not really

[fleet brook]

There's a good spot between a rewarding kill and depending on where you die you aren't worth risking to save

But tbf that's on the person who died dying in a bad area

[shell sonnet]

not so sure about that
it does save my ass every now and again

and like, if reviving wouldnt be practical, then we wouldnt have this landslide of defib mediums

[fleet brook]

Well going for a revive the best situation is you're fighting a 1v1 and if they die during a team fight a 2v3 worse situation a third party comes along

[shell sonnet]

unless you're talking about non-defib revives specifically

[fleet brook]

Yeah

[hardy dust]

Defib ought to be more of a commitment and more punishable

[fleet brook]

Also reviving (maybe for me) is loud and very telegraphed to your enemies and if you're caught you're almost guaranteed to die

Carrying a trophy is also bad

[fleet brook]

Then you just have base revive but maybe a little faster

Unless you're playing light

[hardy dust]

Depends how you change it

[shell sonnet]

what about health sharing?
the medium gives 50% of their hp to the target

the medium needs to risk something, similar to normal revives and gives an opportunity to strike back

[fleet brook]

Lights can get safe revs because they're speedy enough to avoid fights while carrying a trophy

[shell sonnet]

also makes revive chains weaker

only issue would be heal beam

though you are able to kill them before the hologram finishes

then they never get to heal, so maybe not that bad

[fleet brook]

Heavy it's a bad idea unless you know for certain the area is clear.

Medium (you have defib) you're too slow to avoid fights while carrying a trophy but too low HP to sit on a revive

[hardy dust]

Overall defib should still be a stronger pick for medium

[shell sonnet]

i mean, then it would be balanced
a slight advantage

not winning fights by itself

thats what its supposed to be

[fleet brook]

Medium is the only class that can't semi comfortably get a rev so I think that's why they have defib

[fleet brook]

That's a waste of a slot

At that point have the light (if you have one on your team) grab the trophy and leave

[shell sonnet]

not necessarily, just depends on how its handled

[fleet brook]

Also removes the reason for defib is to bring someone back mid fight

If the area already has to be decently clear or safe for me to use defib then I'd rather just normal revive and have an extra slot

[shell sonnet]

and nukes reason was to 1-shot anyone at range

just because its intended doesnt mean its good, fair or fun

[fleet brook]

Nukes weren't a gadget

It was more a combination of the game mechanic of being able to stick C4 / breach charges to things and an explosive barrel

Also they got rid of nukes but then left the nerfs they put in place because of nukes

Not the devs team best example of balancing a concept

[shell sonnet]

same effect

c4 was intended to combine with any carryable to provide heavy with 1-shots

doesnt mean its balanced just because it did what its supposed to

[fleet brook]

C4 was intended as a zoning tool/ destructive utility

Who told you it was meant to give heavy one shots

[shell sonnet]

alongside that

they used nukes as killing tool in pretty much every trailer

[fleet brook]

Marketing team

Balance team and design team are 3 different entities usually

My point being

Medium doesn't really have a comfortable way of reviving you unlike the other two classes

And if you nerf defib to be a slightly faster rev that's a waste of a slot

Literally anything else is better than a 2-3 second faster rev

[shell sonnet]

and does that change anything?
because it feels like were going a bit off-topic

imo defibbing someone mid fight, while intended, is not healthy for the game
at least currently

it needs more risk or a whole rework or some other change

[shell sonnet]

thats why i want to come up with other ideas, that either give it a different job or leave its strengths be while adding risk in some way

[fleet brook]

Disable meds other gadgets and specilzaitions for 6 seconds after using defib on someone

[shell sonnet]

that would be an option, that would for example deny instant heals
and gives a little risk in not having gadgets

but they still have guns, leaving you to fight 2 fights in a row and likely dying

it makes it a little less bad, but keeps the core issue

something else would be better

[fleet brook]

Okay so normal rev is 5 loud seconds to your enemies

Defib not counting charge up is 2 seconds

Although defib has a 2-3 second charge up so on paper both five seconds except for one you're not spending half the time being useless

[obsidian nexus]

lh1 needs damage dropoff

[fierce ermine]

6 seconds is outrageous

[cunning kettle]

defib use rate drops to 0.02%

[fierce ermine]

this would literally kill defib, they already respawn with half hp, and can pretty much be killed immediately anyway, essentially glitching them straight after res does nothing expect feed the enemy team more kills, at that point defib is utterly useless

[fleet brook]

The other suggestions were more extreme

If you'd read up I was more defending defib

[shell sonnet]

it takes a little less than 1 second to charge it (which already makes it a 2v1)
and then 3 seconds for the player to be able to move

on paper, thats just a small time save on getting back to full strength
but that's not the whole story

you are not spending that time sitting still
this immediately removes the ability to punish bad placement, because you spend so little time actually being vulnerable
(even the charge up time is often less than helpful, since they can often just bunny-hop, crouch spam and often even just jump around a corner, out a window or use a movement item to be hard to hit during it
alongside that, after a defib has been started you cannot stop it, unlike a normal revive which is either interrupted or forces the enemy to tank your shots and take further punishment

you're not saving a little bit of time
you're removing a majority of the risk, virtually all punish potential and revive 80% faster
alongside forcing you into unwinable 2v1 situations for trying to actually be rewarded for your plays, which is incredibly frustrating

[fleet brook]

Well in this situation a player has won a 1v1 with a considerable health advantage where a medium couldn't just kill them

[shell sonnet]

im not quit sure i understand

[fleet brook]

You're saying it's removing the reward for winning a 1v1

If you've just finished a 1v1 with a player of equal skill your health is near dead to under half

You can't fight a medium of equal skill immediately after that

So what's stopping in your 1v1 scenario of the med just shooting and killing what killed there teammate

[shell sonnet]

often times they don't immediately engage to defib
often i kill someone, regen a bit and then they come to defib

and even then, without defib they still need to stand still and risk themselfes
someone with 1hp is still just as lethal
if they stand still for a revive you can easily line up a headshot and get massive damage in, no matter how much hp you still have

and that also gives the same situation again
do they keep reviving and take even more damage?
or do they stop, fight you and then try to revive again, wasting time

[fleet brook]

Well yeah I mean then they're just coming to res a teammate I thought you were complaining because they did it mid fight but also

1 so you just camp random trophies

2 someone with 1 HP is one shot by everyone weapon and meds weapons wipe them quick

[shell sonnet]

its both
just to be sure were on the same page, where exactly did i mention team fights?

i dont necessarily camp trophies, but they're often nearby
and thats another point, with defib you have so little time to react that you need to camp a statue
with revives you have at least a few seconds to run after, find and attack them

its true that someone at 1 hp is an easy pick, but they still need to react, turn around (if they're facing away) and shoot you
which is often enough to deal substantial damage with the incredibly easy headshots

and again, interrupted revive, wasting time

[fleet brook]

Camping trophies is bad because if the team isn't a bunch of solos the teammates will comeback as a pair

Or you're just wasting time

If the medium is decent they'll just finish you off and then res there teammate a light will just snatch the trophy and run off with it

Camping is also bad because they can just leave with the trophy

A heavy can winch it (but that sucks now )

I'm guessing you play light? Cuz Med doesn't really have good flank/ 1v1 potential

[shell sonnet]

if they are solos, you get your kill denied and put into an unwinable 2v1 situation
and if theyre together, they turn 3v3's into 3v4-6's

its too strong either way

If the medium is decent they'll just finish you off and then res there teammate
again, i often get to regen beforehand, at worst i would be put into another 1v1 (or even get free damage in because of a revive)
instead its removed immediately and i need to fight a 2v1

a light will just snatch the trophy and run off with it
that is true
but while running away they're wasting time
and if they do it wrong they can still be found and take massive punishment for their misplay

same with winch heavy, they're all at risk while reviving, except defib medium

I'm guessing you play light? Cuz Med doesn't really have good flank/ 1v1 potential
i play all classes
and its not just light that suffers (though i do think defib is a major reason they're unviable for comp)

flanking and picking someone off is one scenario where that comes into play, but by far not the only one

sometimes a player overextends, or is left behind
sometimes they make stupid plays and get punished

and normally that leaves their team at a disadvantage and rewards you by making a win more likely
unless they have defib, which has minimal punish potential

[fleet brook]

I mean

Higher ranks don't play solo so I guess we're looking at it from two different stand points

Also light has no utility at all that's why they're unviable in ranked

They bring nothing but selfish utility in a team game

[shell sonnet]

no, because as explained, it also turns 3v3's into 3v4-6's
its still an issue in team fights
we covered that

imo utility is less of a factor when fights are being brute forced by number/damage advantage
putting a vault in using gateway for example doesn't matter if you will be wiped and cant keep it

heavy turns fights from 3v3's into 3v2 (possible worse if the aoe hits)
medium can turn fights from 3v3's into 3v4-6's

utility doesn't matter if your team gets someone 1-shotted and you will always fight an uphill battle
utility doesn't matter if you're overrun by a 3v6

defib and rpg are way too strong and have the usage numbers to show for it
currently they both exist to outcheese eachother

if both were nerfed, they wouldn't need to outcheese the other one, other things could be used instead without feeling like you're throwing and it would make the game way less frustrating

[north flint]

Defib has a bug where if you defib someone but they press the spawn button you left without the defib for like 30 seconds

[fleet brook]

Huh never had that happen

[north flint]

Look at the end when I try and defib the guy

[fierce ermine]

nerfing them again makes absolutely zero sense, it’s like you want the rpg to be weaker than a frag, rpg’s are supposed to be powerful explosives, and how can you nerf defib even more, you wanna essentially glitch deffibed players for 6 seconds, this will basically negate any use of that gadget, if they get defibbed and then immediately die again because they have no utility, you’ll all be complaining about it being trash, it really isn’t op, them respawning at half health is enough, they can still get killed almost instantly, rendering all of their utility useless for 6 seconds achieves nothing except boosts the opponents ego because they were given a free kill

[vital forge]

That auto shotty skin in the store is so fucking good! I wish I used that gun more, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

[fierce ermine]

if defib gets nerfed like that, then it’ll literally be better to grab the trophy and revive normally in a corner, there will never be a use for it, their original nerf for the defib was more than enough, ofc it’s still the best medium gadget, that doesn’t mean it’s op, it’s just the other gadgets are trash

[shell sonnet]

it’s like you want the rpg to be weaker than a frag
damage wise? yes
frag can be avoided, rpg pretty much not unless they suck at aiming
rpg should be ranged destruction, not damage
just like thermal bore

this will basically negate any use of that gadget"
not really
in direct 1v1 (unless youre a heavy or using melee), you dont use gadgets
you shoot them
which it still leaves just as strong (which is also why i dont think this would be a good solution)

if they get defibbed and then immediately die again
they probably wouldnt
but even if, that's kinda the point
making defib mediums actually weigh their options and risk themselves a little for avoid the massive risk a manual revive would be

they can still get killed almost instantly
they do, but you also need to take out the defib medium first
after 1v1'ing the medium you will likely be at low hp and have no ammo, so you will likely die to the defibbed

[shell sonnet]

that doesn’t mean it’s op, it’s just the other gadgets are trash
and how would we fix that?
how would we buff almost every single gadget in the game, so they are on-par with the current mandatory use defib is?

do we want to work on every single item in the game (possible breaking lots of other balance aspects) just to make them as strong as defib?
or do we nerf 2 items and be done with it?

making them as strong as defib would likely also make them as annoying
damage gadgets like frags would either need more damage (enabling 1-shots) or a higher carried amount (increasing spam)

this games stakes are too high and respawn times too long to allow for such strength

[upper sinew]

a double sprinnt system on M whold go hard

(can be the reson wy better slides)

[fierce ermine]

rpg doing less dmg than a frag is literally unheard of, in team fights people always go for defib, if that player gets up, and can’t do anything then there is no point in defibbing, and even if they will die no matter what, if at least 1 player targets them they are dead, half hp, no utility, no movement, and more than likely no ammo, they will get insta killed, and that’s just against 1 player, most people always see the defib so they tunnel it, making the revived player even weaker is not a good balance change, they deserve at least a fighting chance, half hp and the need to reload is sufficient, if they are going to nerf it then it should be done in a way that possibly limits the amount any 1 team can have, don’t nerf the gadget itself, we are trying to end this nerfing spree embark have started, pretty soon we’ll all be running melee and goo because everyone seems to want dmg nerfs on absolutely everything

[fierce ermine]

in no way did i say we should buff explosives, but nerfing defib again and again is not right, we can’t just nerf everything into the ground until every gadget is equally as bad, if this community had a tier list they’d probably want everything in D tier, because all they ever ask for is nerfs

[upper sinew]

guys there is no meta only play stiles and counter play (ttk valiu and consistnacy as a player)

[fierce ermine]

constantly nerfing absolutely every piece of utility will do nothing but make light more op, and the game more boring, YO CHECK OUT THIS NEW GUN, ITS A HIGHLY ADVANCED FUTURISTIC ASSAULT RIFLE, but don’t worry, it does 0.5 dmg per mag because we don’t want anything in this game to be half decent

[upper sinew]

im still exidet for ewhat wapons there will be (we dont have atachments, so were dependent on what the devs will bring every season)

[shell sonnet]

rpg doing less dmg than a frag is literally unheard of
i see plenty of people asking for it to be nerfed to 100 damage
but even more people ask for 70 or less with 2x ammo

can’t do anything then there is no point in defibbing
but you can pretty much always do something, actually ties into my next point

most people always see the defib so they tunnel it
and here is the issue
either you fight the defib medium, take damage and use up your ammo, and die to the defibbed, or you wait to use it for the defibbed and get shot by the defib medium
if youre alone, you always loose, and it teamfights its still just a straight numbers advantage most of the time

i dont want to make the defibbed person even weaker, it sucks to be killed when you couldnt do anything, but i also have a defib rework idea that prevents exactly that, i can reply to that in a minute

[shell sonnet]

i dont want to buff explosives either
but we would need to if we want them to be as strong as defib

hence my opinion why buffing wont fix defibs situation, only a defib nerf

imo most gagdets have about the right amount of impact
they do a specific jobs and are helpful every now and again

some are a little more used than others, but a lot of them have a decent use rate
or are at least not match throwing by using the different option

except defib and rpg, which are run by everyone and you will likely loose if you dont use it yourself to match it

[neon plaza]

DOES SOMEONE HAVE THE RUBIN SKIN FOR THE AKM? I WANA SEE IT

[fierce ermine]

ig the rpg change could work, but the defib nerf still makes no sense, in a balanced team fight, the player who is defibbing is exposing himself to gunfire as he goes for a res, possibly dying, if that’s the case they still lose a man but the one replacing him is ultimately weaker, the only time a defib will work in your favour is if the enemies have bad aim or are already outnumbered, it’s very hard to lose a fight against a player who was just defibbed, you literally have all of the advantages, taking away their utility too is just crazy

ofc defib is the best gadget, and you absolutely would want to run it, but that’s the point, it’s literally performing as it should, by definition it’s supposed to give you a quick revive in the midst of battle, if it is nerfed again all it will do is indirectly make the regular respawn longer

[torn mantle]

Did the grapple buff from a few weeks ago get reverted?

[shell sonnet]

ok, lets say its a 3v3 and your team kills someone

your team now has the numbers advantage

if the enemy team wants to do a manual revive, they have to take the statue, run off (which wastes time), hide and revive for multiple seconds while standing completely still
if you find them during that time, you can line up easy headshots and punish tem for not being careful enough
(should they decide to fight back instead of trying to tank, then the revive is also interrupted)

or use defib
the charge up takes 1 second, during which they can crouch spam, bunny hop or maybe even use a mobility item to make themselfes hard to hit
(if they dont just jump around a corner or out a window for the defib)
you have 1 second to do anything, after that the defib is set off and you will be in a loosing fight
you either focus the medium and loose health and ammo, which the defibbed can use to kill you
or youcould wait for the defib target for whatever reason, and shoot them once they can be damaged again, but then youre not fighting the medium, that will just kill you

[shell sonnet]

just because its doing what it should doesn't mean its fun or fair

nukes were designed to 1-shot people, that also wasn't fair or fun (unless you were the one abusing it)

i dont think mid-fight defibs can really be balanced to be fair and not frustrating

at least not with something like glitch on defib or health-sharing, thats why i want to come up with different ideas

that being said, id like your opinion on this

it should be less frustrating to face, since a medium doesn't immediately gain
at the same time it remains powerful by reducing the chances of a wipe to a minimum

[ashen hawk]

What if reviving near any enemies in mid battle got the revive animation loading right there until the enemies have gone or died??

[fierce ermine]

nukes were never really planned tho, that wasn’t a specific thing you could take into a match, it’s smth the community discovered and then abused

[ashen hawk]

Thoughts?

[shell sonnet]

they put it in almost every trailer
even if they didnt intend for it in the beginning, they absolutely did once it was well known

they really wanted to keep it, thats why it took multiple nerfs before they decided to gut it

they wanted it in, but ultimately it wasnt healthy for the game

[ashen hawk]

@raw nexus sorry i was on cooldown on game feedback. ur idea is absolutely trash noffense
they alr nerfed the winch claw hard. this must be a joke.
we dont need more heavy nerfs thnx.
u light mains alr did enough
the winch claw now is finally perfectly balanced (speaking as a med main)

[fierce ermine]

mid fight defibs will always be annoying obviously, but the same thing can be said for stun gun, glitch nades, fire (since we have no easily accessible way of putting it out) that doesn’t mean all of those things should be nerfed into the ground

[shell sonnet]

but most of those things aren't even close to as strong

stun gun can be shot (unless youre melee, which id also like to see changed somehow)
glitch nades only disable gadgets, you can still shoot back and fight
and fire only deals a little bit of damage in a relatively small are, you can likely just walk around, take another path and if all else fails just tank it

defib gives you a straight numbers advantage a majority of the time

[shell sonnet]

it would prevent the worst of the worst
but it still forces you to stick around the place

and how would you even kill the defib target if it only becomes vulnerable after you've gotten distance?

probably better than what we have now, but i think we need a different solution

[exotic skiff]

Defib are fine rn, whenever someone try that a free kill and the guys who is rez is only mid hp

[chrome bobcat]

Holograms can be used as cover. Rezed people from Defibs can deal damage before taking damage

[exotic skiff]

that like 0.2sc

[whole sparrow]

why is the spreadsheet not working??

[icy sparrow]

@pseudo pike @junior crag u need to listen this is to too important as it’s s3 weapon r terribly shallow

Bow needs optics aim down sight and faster arrow velocity

The glitch trap should have a very visible electric visual effect cause u barely see it and it zaps u out of no where and it should be bigger(thus bigger hit box)

Double blade replacement should be a heavy sword for medium which has a fast downwards slash when jumping plus more damage if u fall from high and (60 damage) wide range swings on ground plus secondary deflect bullets

We need a flare gun gadget(light) so bad that’s sticks to enemies or walls. It’s low damage but it long term so it help for enemy player to avoid pursuing and heal Lol it’s also bright and colourful sparks to show enemy location when it stick and leaves a spark trail on the map
Give sonar back to medium

Fast double barrel shotgun reload when one bullet left out of two.

Tf2 shovel inspired weapon
Add a tactical axe where u do a downward thrust and do more damage the higher u fall (good with grapple hook)

Wall run and wall bounce for light ability which could replace cloak

[chrome bobcat]

Sometimes .2 sec is all it takes to win or lose

[vale obsidian]

it block dagger back stap/rpgs/hooks/ everything

[shell sonnet]

you need to win 2 1v1's back to back
first the medium that is defibbing, then (while likely low on hp and ammo), the guy they defibbed
and all of that just to keep the kill you already got

its frustrating to loose to and too powerful

[exotic skiff]

It rarely make me loose anything, there is plenty of thing that can os a medic mid hp

[chrome bobcat]

That's only if 1 guy is running Defib. If both then it's 3 1v1s

[shell sonnet]

exactly

[shell sonnet]

frags need to be held during the defib animation, because they take less time to explode than for deifb to finish
so youre just holding a grenade for a second and the defib medium is free to shoot you

if you use mines they can just run the other way unless you hit the statue directly

and thats if they removed i-frames, which still exist

[shell sonnet]

btw, i kinda hoped i could get your opinion on something

[ashen hawk]

yet true

[shell sonnet]

this

[exotic skiff]

and one glitch mine can counter it

defib are fine

[shell sonnet]

thats actually where i think most of their strength comes from
just denying the enemies cheese

[shell sonnet]

tell that to the 100% usage rate

[vale obsidian]

i actually love this change, the only thing im not so happy about is that it'll confuse the shit out of new play as in other game defib usually insta rez people back in the fight but seemingly send the guy to narnia in this game

i still would perfer this over what we have now

[shell sonnet]

the finals is just build different
changing its functionality, while confusing, overall improves the fun and balance

maybe there could be some steps to teach them
obviously changing defibs description
but maybe also an obvious sound cue etc.

[exotic skiff]

because rest is not good

[shell sonnet]

and how would you buff the rest to be as good as defib?

[exotic skiff]

glitch mine are op, pad a must have

[shell sonnet]

the only way to replace it is to outcompete it, aka buff them to be as strong

[vale obsidian]

it would be a hassle to buff everything when you can just nerf one thing tho no?

[exotic skiff]

And even if you nerf it defib will always been pick because that a rez option

[shell sonnet]

imo glitch trap is only so strong because it denies stuff like defib and rpg (and makes dash light a living nightmare)
otherwise i think its pretty balanced

[vale obsidian]

^^

[exotic skiff]

Model in the other hand is busted as fuck

[shell sonnet]

movement is very useful, but you dont loose the game if you dont have it

[shell sonnet]

maybe
but we can at the very least try to make it less frustrating

[vale obsidian]

yeah i think modle wasn't as op in the beginning but now its a bit over power

[shell sonnet]

dont like how far it 2-shots mediums

[exotic skiff]

you do actually

[shell sonnet]

thats what im saying

buffing is way more work and probably breaks the game

rather nerf the few broken ones

[vale obsidian]

the 5 thing they should nerf they did not nerf since its introll duction

[chrome bobcat]

It's been meta and a must pick since closed beta wdym

[vale obsidian]

every other nerff for the most part feel like a filler to me

[shell sonnet]

all mediums i see run defib
but i do see mediums without movement somewhat often

i dont feel a lot weaker if i dont have movement, and sometimes i have fun trying to win without it
but without defib/rpg you just dont win if the enemies have it

[exotic skiff]

it because some people are not taking proper loadout that all

[exotic skiff]

will always be even after twenty nerf

[chrome bobcat]

I literally cannot play medium without jumppad

[shell sonnet]

there should not be a "proper loadout"
people should be able to use what they like and have fun with and still have a decent chance at winning

thats the entire idea behind game balance

[vale obsidian]

i can actually see that happen bc they seem to nerf the worng thing all the time lol

[vale obsidian]

^^^^^^^^

[shell sonnet]

maybe, but its also playstyle dependent

with different amount of experience, creativity and map knowledge you can get by pretty well

[chrome bobcat]

I think the 93r nerf was completely justified as it was too op in the training range

[exotic skiff]

not a single game is like that

Meta exist in every fps

[chrome bobcat]

I feel like a snail without my jumppad catapulting me 70m across the map

[vale obsidian]

yes but having a never changing meta for years on end is not fun is it

[shell sonnet]

there is always a meta, obviously

but there is a difference between
"you might wanna use this, but that is also fine"
and
"use this or die"

[vale obsidian]

i don't even use defib bc its not useful when im playing fat light on da flank

[chrome bobcat]

Witerally. A great example of this is lights gadgets.

[exotic skiff]

exist in everygame, but for example in the last big tournament the winning team did not use defib

[vale obsidian]

huh?

[exotic skiff]

on the other hand everyone was using glitch trap and model

Because that broken

[chrome bobcat]

What tournament big dog?

[shell sonnet]

yeah

some stuff like smoke and thermal for example
by themselfes, a little questionable

smoke on its own maybe to hide during steals/revives

but together (and especially with dagger) its incredibly fun and can do wonders for defending

[exotic skiff]

BES tournament

[shell sonnet]

i think lights gadgets overall are the most well balanced cooperatively

[vale obsidian]

even heavy specto some extent

[shell sonnet]

which tournament?
the one from twitch?

[chrome bobcat]

I was mostly talking about frag, sonar, gateway, stun, glitch, vanish. Those are the ones I see most at least and honestly they're all equally as good

[exotic skiff]

the only "somewhat big" tournament we have rn

Breakout

[chrome bobcat]

Never heard of "BES" tournament

[shell sonnet]

yeah

but you can still do great with the others
they may be a little more niche or slightly less strong, but you dont loose just by equipping them

[shell sonnet]

never heard of it

[exotic skiff]

because you are not trying to do comp or play pugs/scrim at high lvl

[chrome bobcat]

Meh others are too niche. I can maybe understand the breach charge for defending cash outs. Smoke is just completely useless. Heat vision is an actual debuff most of the time and tracking dart is just a worse version of sonar

[shell sonnet]

you can enjoy playing the game more than watching it
i dont watch stuff while playing and when im not playing i have better stuff to do
that shouldnt dictate how good we are or how valid our opinions are

[exotic skiff]

I was not trying to be mean, I was just trying to explain to you

[chrome bobcat]

Alright let's see what balis and his squad is running

[vale obsidian]

is there even a discord sever for that?

[shell sonnet]

me neither, im trying to explain how that is not a valid argument

[exotic skiff]

they are not the best team

[exotic skiff]

yes there is a couple

[vale obsidian]

can you list some for me?

[chrome bobcat]

Didn't he consistently end top leaderboard like every season?

[vale obsidian]

you asking for so much damn

[exotic skiff]

I talk about comp wise, Balise is a insane player but leaderboard doesn't mean anything

[exotic skiff]

depend but active discord are pretty rare game is dying at good lvl

[shell sonnet]

i think it depends a lot on weapon choice and playstyle
i do pretty well with them

probably more niche, but a good player can match slightly better ones with them

[exotic skiff]

We had prohubs/Breaout esport...

[vale obsidian]

is it not a discord sever?

[exotic skiff]

i can invite you but to get inside you need to be d1 in s2

[vale obsidian]

burb

[chrome bobcat]

I would consider heat vision if it showed anyone at any distance and you could see where glass is. I've shot a tazer at glass too many times...

[chrome bobcat]

I thought leaderboards didn't matter

[shell sonnet]

yeah, it deserves to be buffed like that
would make it helpful to spot small glimpses of enemies at range

oh and while were at it (if it hasnt happened already), make the border of the map visible with it
i dont care if its just a solid blue wall, i wanna see where i cant go

[vale obsidian]

it did not matter bc its play time, but using it that way is a good way to guarantee some good player (with an asterisk*)

[shell sonnet]

heck, make windows the same colour, cant look through it anymore, but it makes sense, since its a solid object

[chrome bobcat]

Yep it would make seeing where enemy teams are going to attack you from much easier especially on maps like Kyoto

[exotic skiff]

you can enter via this or a vouch by a member

[chrome bobcat]

Make it a transparent Blu

[shell sonnet]

or that

i dont mind too much

i wonder if it would be broken to just not have a charge on it...

like activate it whenever, no cooldown, no nothing

[vale obsidian]

we talking defib?

[chrome bobcat]

If you didn't have to wait for it to fully charge to turn it back on I wouldn't mind. Probably a small QoL

[shell sonnet]

like cloak...
yeah i could see that working

[chrome bobcat]

Yea except the insane 33% activation consumption (maybe a 10% would be ok since it's already so long. Even tho why the hell would you spam it?) also why is my name orange now

[shell sonnet]

you wrote enough to level up
congrats

[chrome bobcat]

Yay! :3

[shell sonnet]

thats actually something that bothers me about cloak, it just feels so short

maybe it could have its old activation cost back (or less)
but you loose charge on becoming visible by being shot

also prevents spam but smart usage is rewarded more

[vale obsidian]

https://tenor.com/view/stop-pinging-me-nigoria-lore-gif-25062683

[chrome bobcat]

Yea on the patch notes they mentioned they raised the activation cost but it's still the same duration (which is just false)

[chrome bobcat]

https://tenor.com/view/spy-tf2-spy-tf2-correct-spy-tf2-correct-gif-15580627066749528135

[shell sonnet]

thats called a "conversation" my guy /j

[shell sonnet]

is there still something you wanted to talk bout?
or was the regarding what heroguy an i just wrote?

[vale obsidian]

playing gamews rn

[whole sparrow]

why is the spreadsheet no working?

[restive plover]

Guys would an arsonist build be viable? I’m saying like heavy flamethrower rpg pyro nades and pyro mines.

[restive plover]

Just sounds funny

[shell sonnet]

i tried that before
its a bit niche but it can work

i would go with goo gun and just fill the whole cashout room with goo (keep in mind that goo breaks on its own after like a minute)
mesh is also nice to tank until youre in range

unless its like world tour, because winch just wins

[restive plover]

Yeah I’m kinda new so I’d have to figure out how goo gun works but sounds fun

Winch is also good but at that point I might just wanna go melee.

[honest willow]

Model is balanced imo

[fierce ermine]

it’s godly when in the right hands, which can be said for every other weapon in the game

[honest willow]

exactly, you have to hit every shot to make it “op” which is not realistic for most of the playerbase

and it hasn't been touched at all really in so many patches. Ppl are just noticing that its a decent weapon after they nerfed the FCAR

[fierce ermine]

tbf i’ve seen a teammate hit 4 shots at close range, did a total of like 30dmg

[honest willow]

yeah it can hit reg too at super close range

[fierce ermine]

fr

[honest willow]

it really only thrives at 10-20 meters. which makes it difficult for ppl who have poorer aim who have to get in close to hit shots with the AKM and FCAR

like you're facing a shotgun what do you expect? just play at 20-25m and you'll win almost every encounter

[covert parcel]

its literally 8 damage or 128 damage, no in between

[turbid lake]

Sniper must be either removed or reworked as DMR

[fierce ermine]

but it’s not a dmr

[chrome bobcat]

Alright do it with the 93r

[fierce ermine]

i’ll play 1 game

i regret my decision

bro i lost a fight with a turret

[chrome bobcat]

Me every time I switch off akm. (Also no shame in dying to a turret. Happens to the best of us)

[near stratus]

This might be a dumb question but how do you underhand throw a grenade? I’ve done it accidentally before

[shell sonnet]

Fun > accuracy

If it makes the game more fun who cares?

[fierce ermine]

press the secondary fire button (aim button)

[fierce ermine]

because people will complain about the new dmr too, straight up removing certain weapons is kinda extreme

[shell sonnet]

I dont think so
We could make it something like lh1 with greater risk reward

Or reduce range to mid-range and make its shots destroy buildings

Destruction utility in exchange for combat ability

Also pairs well with its style of defending

[fierce ermine]

so that’ll turn into another dmr, with more dmg and slower fire rate, which people will still use to snipe with and then players will say it’s more broken than a sniper

[shell sonnet]

Thats why it needs falloff

Fall off on a sniper, i know, a little stupid

[fierce ermine]

ok so what happens to all the skins people have on the sniper, and all the levels

[shell sonnet]

Why does that matter?
Changing what the sniper rifle does doesnt effect it

We just cant remove it

[fierce ermine]

so you’re saying the model of the gun would be the same, just the way it functions

[shell sonnet]

Yes

[fierce ermine]

so it would be a bolt action rifle with a big ass scope but incapable of sniping at distance

[shell sonnet]

We can reduce the zoom to make it fit mid range

[fierce ermine]

i’m not even against your idea, but as you describe it, the sniper we have now looks to small to have that kinda role, i feel we’d need a beefier looking and sounding gun

[shell sonnet]

Sound should be pretty easy
Looks not so much though...

But if it makes the game more fun
Why not

Like

We have a spoon to replace a hammer

Bullets magically reload by looking at a dragon

You can summon energy drinks out of thin air

Things dont need to be accurate here

[fierce ermine]

they don’t need to be, but i would prefer them to be, if we got a rifle capable of destruction, i’d wanna feel like im using a rifle capable of destruction

[shell sonnet]

We could just add a skin

Not ideal obviously since you need to get that first, be it buying, challenge, etc

But if it breaks immersion that much, maybe that might be ok

[plucky spade]

Ok League player

[restive plover]

Dome shield buff

Guys what would be a good gadget combo for riot shield? It sounds fun so I might get it.

[shell sonnet]

Well, its melee
So movement stuff would be good

Though i do reccoment just trying to make use of your enviroment very well

Jumping from window to window to catch people off guard, blocking off paths or creating them with goo can be good

Maybe you can dematerialize yourself down to someone, though thats pretty risky

Cant really think of something that performs specifically well with it

It is one of the less used weapons
Not without reason

But standing in front of your teammate and tanking hit after hit while they steal of shoot can feel really good

[near stratus]

Thank You for that information

[restive plover]

yeah possibly. rn Im just trying different things bc I have no clue what I wanna main.

[fierce ermine]

just play absolutely everything, you’ll find your main naturally, a good mode to play would be power shift, if you just wanna get a feel for everything

[shell sonnet]

Dont be afraid to use stuff people label as "bad"

Most people say dagger is bad
And while it does have its downsides
I can personally perform really well with it because my aim can be somewhat inconsistent at times, while my movement is not

Or mgl32, most people cant manage it, but if you do it can put in some work

Shooting people around corners, in the attic, landing nades through holes

It feels awesome

[hardy dust]

There's nothing in this game you can't do "well" with

At high elo, maybe not. But for basically anything else, you can literally run whatever you want and find success, it just might be a bit harder.

Even 93r

[restive plover]

yeah. I agree. Even if something is objectively worse it could be better for the player if it suits their weaknesses and strengths

as for class, probably not light because im dying WAY too fast in 1v1s. So its between heavy and medium.

not sure which one ngl

defensive medium sounds fun idk

[shell sonnet]

Fun fact, you dont die ifbthey never see you coming

If you got decent movement, try dagger

Thats how i played through the early winch-pocalyps

Cant be winched if they never see you

Admittedly a bit much for a new player

But who knows

[restive plover]

mines ok but im kinda new. stealth dagger also sounds funny. just TF2 spy.

[shell sonnet]

With the speed of a scout

[restive plover]

yup lmao

but yeah I still dont have a clear grasp on what class I wanna play sadly.

[shell sonnet]

You know, you dont need a main either

I play whatever, mainly just based on the stuff i wanna do

Today i played revolver cuz i felt like it

Some other day i wanted to try and stack smoke with gas

Or mgl with brain activation

Sometimes not having a main can be good, definitely increases the fun for me

[restive plover]

I got riot but I suck with it sadly

[fringe spear]

I'm bad with it as well

[boreal laurel]

I main all three classes 😎 In fact I would say best practice is to find a good way to play all classes. For me it’s sniping with FAMAS on med, sword or shotty with dash on light, and flamer or KS-23 with goo gun on heavy

[restive plover]

Melee should be buffed

[eager wasp]

I disagree

[fleet brook]

Supportive utility

[boreal hawk]

Nerf explosive mine

[vale obsidian]

i have an idea, to soft rework heal beam

buff the healing but it get -30 to -40% heal when healed tarket get damage

And or heavily nerf the heal recharge time but let you build it up by doing damage

[sonic kernel]

I would pay good money for a lightsaber skin for sword... just saying.

[hallow current]

Are we running out of weapons?

[sonic kernel]

I also think that healing a target thats full HP should still run up the charge on the heal gun. Currently you can hold heal beam on a teammate thats full HP who is stealing cashout with no penalty, and the instant they start taking damage they are already getting healed. If the heal beam started running out of charge regardless of whether your teammate was full hp or not, it would encourage players to wait for a teammate to take damage before healing and if they are holding the beam on a full hp teammate, there would be some penalty because there would be less charge when they actually start taking damage. This would force people to be more selective about the beam and charge usage.

[vale obsidian]

i like that idea, but i prefer it to drain charge at 50% so its not so punishing

[late idol]

what happened to the invisibility cloak, it got nerfed multiple times?

[vale obsidian]

yeah it got nerf but thats 1 and a half season ago

[late idol]

i used to play when it was op, it still is good tho

[hardy dust]

Its the best light pick in high elo

The only actual viable one.

In pubs you can run whatever, but grapple is still pretty bad

[modest valve]

Using different weapon combinations and ability combinations allows you to essentially create the TF2 classes in THE FINALS.

[willow dragon]

lovely ppl plz help me using which gadget i can close task saying ''deal N ammount damage to opponents with explosives'? is it explosive mine? red barrels? frag nade? :_)

[hardy dust]

I think its all of them

[fleet brook]

Not a light saber for legal reasons it'd be a laser sword

[fleet brook]

I'd still take dash over invis

[hardy dust]

It gets countered with good aim tho...

So it's pretty bad against good players

[shell sonnet]

More fitting for the dual blades imo
With that whole reflect gimmik and all

[obsidian nexus]

model is kinda nuts

[shell sonnet]

I think we should revert the winch nerfs, but give it to medium instead

Imo on heavy its just problematic
They deal too much damage and have too much hp to get it reasonably balanced

Melee medium on the other hand needs something to engage, winch would be great for this
They dont deal insane damage, so you actually get a chance to escape instead of being one-shot
And should they fail, you actually get to escape, instead of being slammed by a 140 damage aoe

And with the whole pulling statues thing, it plays into mediums support role very nicely

Thoughts?

[obsidian nexus]

WINCH WINCH WINCH WINCH WINCH WINCH WINCH WINCH WINCH

[fleet brook]

Grenade launchers should count for both grenade damage challenge and explosive challenges

[digital zinc]

Love

[fleet brook]

Tbf it's better on console because they can't flick the aim as well

[fleet brook]

WTF is medium gonna do with winch and
What replacement gadget are you gonna give heavy?

Because whenever someone loses a gadget it's usually replaced also it would just always be passed up for heal beam

Heal beam/ turret and medium wants to fight you at mid range

Their melee ttk is to slow to justify a pull in

[digital zinc]

Give heavy dematerializer?

[fleet brook]

Sledge go brrr

Plus heavy to wide and tall to fit through/ run through the hole

[shell sonnet]

medium can use it to engage with its melee weapons, which should elevate them from pretty bad to decent

we dont have to give heavy a replacement, but if you really want it i did have an idea for one we could discuss later on

maybe it would be passed up for healbeam, but thats part of the balance
not just make meleee medium viable, but also make heavy less broken
(because right now i pretty much only ever see winch heavies in the final round, and they just brute force team wipes with insane melee dps)

specifically because mediums melee ttk is so slow its justified
being pulled into a heavies melee range removes the main thing that keept melee balanced on heavy, being that you need to get into close range to begin with
mediums melee dps kinda sucks, so giving them a tool to get into it easier is imo justified, also because it would be way less frustrating to face

[shell sonnet]

no, id actually like to keep that on medium

as for the replacement idea, we could let heavy turn into a giant
its a bit of a long shot but if youre interested id love to explain the idea

[fleet brook]

Just taking a gadget from a class is shitty no matter the reasoning without giving them something else

Medium's melee is bad not because they can't close the distance it's just cuz they suck and it would exclusively be used to pull other mediums

Pulling a light you're too slow to kill them before they get away

Pull a heavy and they can just shoot you

Plus winch gives heavy objective play but right now it's shit

Stealing from a class and giving it to another isn't really the answer here

It also doesn't fit mediums class identity

Medium wants to fight you from range and support the team

Not yank someone in and force an engagement which they'll likely loose to most other weapons ttk

They don't have a playstyle that melds well with the tool because it wasn't built with them in mind

Also again it'd be competing against heal beam /turret and if you choose winch over those two as medium you're throwing

Trolling even

[vale obsidian]

https://tenor.com/view/there-is-a-lot-of-text-hellsdevil-there-is-tons-of-text-there-is-a-lot-to-read-gif-24980406

[fleet brook]

To simplify

Winch bad on medium it's built for heavy don't take something and try to force a playstyle that wouldn't work anyways

It'd be like giving the sniper to heavy

[shell sonnet]

taking a gadget from a class is shitty no matter the reasoning
it sucks for the class, true
but it makes it way less frustrating for everyone trying to face the heavy, making it justified

but we can also just give them something new too

Medium's melee is bad not because they can't close the distance
i think multiple people mentioned its bad specifically because of that
lights outrun you, mediums can keep up and heavies out dps you
with this you can at least get them close and threaten them

i know it wont be as good on medium as on heavy, but specifically because its not as strong on medium, it will be balanced

Plus winch gives heavy objective play
isn't heavy already objective focused with all their defensive potential?

Stealing from a class and giving it to another isn't really the answer here
to make the game more balanced and fun it might be

Medium wants to fight you from range and support the team
except when they want to use melee, which this would help with
it even expands their support capability by letting them pull statues, it would fit right in

They don't have a playstyle that melds well with the tool because it wasn't built with them in mind
except they do with riot and dual blades, just that theyre pretty bad right now, which winch would help against

[shell sonnet]

winch too strong on heavy

give it to medium so it doesnt break the game anymore and actually makes melee usable for them

[fleet brook]

No it'd go from good to just a throw specialization to pick it'd be the only useless specialization on medium

Riot and dual blades are bad because DPS not closing gap

Heavies melee was bad because closing the gap was difficult and they introduced several movement options into the game over time (mostly light) making heavy melee worse and worse that's why winch is strong for melee heavy because without it gap closing against any decent player is a death sentence+ adding a bunch of open maps

[fleet brook]

I think you have a misunderstanding of why meds melee is bad it's not gap closing it's killing confirming

Med has some of the best innate (not counting other factors) gap closing of any melee weapon

[shell sonnet]

its not "good" on heavy
its instantly kills lights, mediums are very likely to die (if not by just the rpg that follows) and even heavies are at a major disadvantage
every heavy that ends up on the final round uses it because of how strong it is

i know that it would be used less on medium, no doubt about it
maybe there are some interesting buffs to get it a bit up to speed
but whatever we do, its preferable to the impact it has on heavy

Heavies melee was bad because closing the gap was difficult
which is exactly why it was balanced
even with its insane close range dps, there was always something you could do: run
not anymore, and now they can just force insane dps down everyones throat and brute force fights by 1-shotting the first guy they see

it's not gap closing it's killing confirming
which winch also enables
sneak up on someone, hit them, they run off (normally you couldn't do anything at that point), but now you have the option to winch, getting them close again to finish them off

Med has some of the best innate (not counting other factors) gap closing of any melee weapon
thats the thing though, all of their gap closing is defensive
denying damage with riot or returning damage with dual blades
all of this is defensive
if the enemy just runs, youre out of luck and cant catch up
thats why they could use winch

[ashen hawk]

Give us an orbital ems strike that destroys terminids in seconds

[tropic stirrup]

did i miss a helldivers crossover

[ashen hawk]

lol srry its my dreams

@raw dew
i was on cooldown.
its a skill issue. those were obv not genuine opinions. i wrote them as sarcasm, therefore it is sarcasm. and they genuinely look like so
and most of them commented on the actual opinions like lewis or fcar. they understood that tk was obv effing sarcasm. every1 can, since tk just got nerfed and only a dimwit would ask for another nerf
pls stop acting like a dum nitwit

discussion over

[turbid lake]

Sniper that degrade the quality of the game must be removed

[clever fern]

or they instead make the sniper a projectell like the bow? Like what fortnite decided to do

[shell sonnet]

@brazen mango

I agree that we shouldnt have had it to begin with

But at this point the best we can do is damage controle and heavy is too opressive with it

Medium wouldnt be

+riot/dual swords should get more usage, which is nice

[brazen mango]

it also winches a light into a model + quick melee oneshot combo, which you cant fix like the KS one because its always at least 168 damage

[shell sonnet]

But then its kinda just swapped

If heavy does it or medium does it, its the same thing
Just that everything else should be less annoying

Or am i missing something?

[brazen mango]

Heavy cant do it ANYMORE because they specifically removed that interaction by nerfing winch damage, you cant do that with med cuz model that does less than 105 damage is useless

[shell sonnet]

Oh i see

[brazen mango]

winch doesnt fit the medium Design philosophy at all, it fits heavy more (despite how unhealthy it is rn)

winch just needs to either be removed or reworked to be way less frustrating to fight

[shell sonnet]

It does support with the pulling statues thing

But i do see the issue...

[brazen mango]

I think a big thing they could do to fix winch is make it so it has a longer windup animation before hooking, right now its nearly hitscan

[shell sonnet]

Id like it to be a gadget that just cant pull players

[brazen mango]

yeah same, but I dont see that happening sadly

they gave heavy another free kill button so all the heavy mains with 10 thumbs are gonna bitch and cry if they further nerf it or take it away

[shell sonnet]

I think we need like a big rebalance of all classes

That way, with everyone getting nerfs and buffs, nobody should complain that "only x gets buffs and my classes nerfs"

But they would probably complain the other buffs and their nerfs were too much

[shell sonnet]

What about sledge

Slede primary attack+qm also does that iirc

Given, model has range but it is similar

[brazen mango]

yes its also bullshit

neither heavy or medium should be able to oneshot light, their weapons putting the class at low HP is fine (besides sledge 200 damage hit that one is fine)

[restive plover]

Lights are fast and manoeuvrable for a reason, it's not for 1v1 it's for flanking and helping your teammates

U can't balance the game for everybody there always gonna be people complain about something, game for everybody is a game for nobody

Exactly

[brazen mango]

how does that matter

it was part of the reason why we had (and arguably still have) a double heavy meta

Light gets punished enough by shotguns and burst damage without them oneshotting the class

people want light to be even more punished for small positoning mistakes than already is the case but then the same people complain about stun (lol)

[restive plover]

If you maneuver around them and catch them by surprise they won't even have time to react to one shoot u, but if you go 1v1 with heavy up front like mediums do u done, u can still handle a medium as a light if u really good

[brazen mango]

im aware, but that doesnt change the fact that light shouldnt be oneshot in a teamfight, otherwise you are risking way too much to have a light in your team if they are just discarded by a single button press and you get put into a 2v3

literally the reason why nuke and old 180 damage rpg made light useless, the class was already completely gone from a fight with a single button press

oneshots AGAINST light are only balanced if they FROM a light, or are at a very high cost/ are very niche, like sledge 200 hits or model + quick melee

[fleet brook]

It's not "balanced" if heavy can never close the distance that's like saying a weapon that can deal 1 million damage in a hit but you have to be 2 inches from the enemy click there head enter a helldiver 2 orbital code and tap dance is balanced a weapons damage doesn't matter if you can't access it and the devs have made a ton of open maps

Or before winch the counterplay wasn't running it was walking backwards and shooting and you'd win everytime

[brazen mango]

https://tenor.com/view/the-finals-get-coined-nama-tama-gif-26831859

[restive plover]

If they don't pull u with a claw and smack u with a hammer like a mosquitoe

Got ptsd from it bro

[fleet brook]

The person above RC is arguing with me that winch should be moved to medium

I'm saying it'd be a throw pick at best and never used at worst

[restive plover]

Yeah I don't know how would that work, u pull them and then what...? Lol

[fleet brook]

They're bringing up mediums melee but they all mega suck

[restive plover]

Yeah

[fleet brook]

They also get out dps by most guns

[restive plover]

Idk I seen few in TA, but it's mostly from relatively new players, don't know why they ruining their experience like that

I guess it's cool to deflect bullets like Deadpool

I honestly thought light would get them when I saw it for the first time, would make sense

[shell sonnet]

but it wasnt impossible
you could not run straight at people, that got you shot and killed

you had to make use of your gadgets/specials to get close
or play smart with positioning/making use of its destruction utility
it rewarded skillful play

now everyone can press q and make use of its insane damage

[fleet brook]

Yes because trading your shield and Charge and slam for one kill is worth it and if the enemy is smart they see you deploy gadget they leave you've now wasted your shield and Charge and slam

Thank you for being an active detriment to your team when you could've saved your dome for anything else

[crisp falcon]

Ay fellas, so I don't normally run the model because I've always had this same issue but I've recently started trying to using it again because everyone else seems to, whenever I try to interrupt a reload some matches it's fine I shoot and it interrupts the reload, other matches no matter what I do he loads all shells into the tube, am I just being an idiot? Is there a button to interrupt the reload? I'm on console by the way

[shell sonnet]

but winch claw isn't any different in that regard?
you still use your specialization to get a kill

only difference is that winch has pretty much no counterplay besides "hope hes outside lmao"

and like, thats the whole point
sledge is insanely powerful, in combat as well as outside of it
it needs downsides
in this case it means that you need better movement/ambush abilities or to use items to make engagements possible

winch does it in a frustrating way that sucks the fun out of the game

[fleet brook]

You also realize part of the reason winch was added was because dash was added

[crisp falcon]

I've always just assumed the only way is to shoot, I have like 500 hours in this and everytime I give the model a shot I just get increasingly more frustrated when I die because I can't interrupt my reload

[fleet brook]

Basically even if you did all the skilled play you were talking about

A light could hit dash and invalidate all of it

[boreal laurel]

Yes 😎😎😎 KS my beloved ❤️ They may nerf flamer but our little slug-thrower is still ours

[fleet brook]

Causing people to just give up on melee heavy

[shell sonnet]

dash existed before

dash is a problem for melee heavies, but the solution to that should not be to add a giant middle finger to anyone that wants to play

[fleet brook]

Why put in all that effort and skill for a 1 button counter

[somber raft]

You can just mele. It will interrupt the reload.

[shell sonnet]

just so that dash can be somewhat decently dealt with

[fleet brook]

There's being a "problem" and then there's being a 1 button counter that makes up for all your mistakes

[somber raft]

Mele button

[shell sonnet]

and so is winch

dont wanna get close?
q+1-shot

[fleet brook]

I'm just pointing out that melee heavy became much worse when dash was added

[fleet brook]

Both of these are problem abilities that are either bad or god tier depending on patch

[crisp falcon]

Yeah but in a firefight that precious extra second you use to melee could've been better spent interrupting, but ah well maybe that's the only surefire way to interrupt it

[fleet brook]

also dash was an amazing utility trade for the light

Heavy burned there charge and maybe some other items

You used 1 charge of dash that comes back and then continue running maybe 2

[shell sonnet]

imo they both stayed at about the same strength no matter what time were looking at

its all about match ups

[somber raft]

Right you have to time it a little. Hide behind a wall and mele or juke and jive and mele. I find I only have the issue when I “tactical reload” that is to say when I hit r to reload. If I just run out of ammo I can leftclick to shoot to interrupt the reload.

[fleet brook]

Tapping a gadget also works to interrupt it

[crisp falcon]

Yeah I get all that fellas, I was just intrigued as to whether there's something I'm missing because 80 percent of the time I just can't do what's supposed to happen, you interrupt the reload by shooting so I end up finding other means but it's just slower than simply shooting, if that makes sense

[shell sonnet]

one thing i find really important though is, dash is no issue for most people
the people that have the biggest issue with dash are melee players

meanwhile winch is a problem for everyone

a sledge player has chosen to play it dispite the risk of dash existing, its their vault
meanwhile winch is a big issue to everyone, regardless of what they use

you can stop using an underpowered option (in this case sledge)
but you cant stop others from abusing overpowered ones

in a world without winch, i could swap off sledge any play something else if it really does not work at all
but with winch, i can swap to whatever i want and still have an issue with it

if you use sledge, at most you could be having a bad time

if someone is using winch, they have fun, while everyone else does not

the fun of the majority should be more important, than that of a single player

[fleet brook]

I mean I wouldn't say a specilzaition existing Killin an entire playstyle for like 1 1/2 seasons is okay

That's like saying you chose to play anything but heavy knowing winch exists

It also meant adding new Melee/ close range weapons for heavy was completely useless

It also limits map design

Also it screwed over mediums melee which was already on life support

It also screwed over light melee but there entire kits is gap closers

When dash came out it was basically killing an entire playstyle because it was severely under rewarding

[shell sonnet]

I mean I wouldn't say a specilzaition existing Killin an entire playstyle for like 1 1/2 seasons is okay
i agree

just that winch doesn't just kill a whole playstyle, but all of them

you need to get close for pretty much everything (unless its like moving platforms)
and when you do, winch just wins

[fleet brook]

That's an over statement

Winch sucks vs other heavies and winch encourages death ball comps/ everyone staying close together so when you're grabbed you can call it out and heavy gets melted

Med turns around and heal beams you

Also nerfing winches range made it worse at objective play encouraging grabbing players with it

Which is the opposite of what they wanted

[fleet brook]

I mean medium and heavy at the time and now can play at decent range only class who absolutely needs to close is light

[shell sonnet]

That's like saying you chose to play anything but heavy knowing winch exists
because thats how it is right now
pretty much anything looses to winch sledge (unless you can keep at distance, which you cant if you play the obhjective)

only difference here is that winch screws over everyone, while dash only screws over close range weapons

[fleet brook]

I think you need to look at the bigger picture

Dash existing either meant they wouldve had to make more close quarters maps and most maps are very open with limited close quarters fighting or nerfed dash because if you make an open map with dash there's basically no catching anyone

Like I said I think both are incredibly problematic

But giving winch to medium won't do anything but kill it's usage

That's like back then someone saying give dash to medium it wouldn't do anything but kill it's usage and at that point you're not solving an issue just hiding it away

[chrome bobcat]

Give mesh shield to light

[restive plover]

https://tenor.com/view/falin-dunmeshi-dungeon-meshi-delicious-in-dungeon-falin-touden-gif-7431042596977720142

[shell sonnet]

It also meant adding new Melee/close range weapons for heavy was completely useless
again, not useless, but you need to play smart, which is what should be making them skillful

When dash came out it was basically killing an entire playstyle because it was severely under rewarding
but if you use melee, youre kind o setting yourself up for it, it sucks but you can just swap and play something else
winch does it to everyone, no matter what you do, you will be killed by it

you can swap off melee, you cant stop a heavy from abusing winch

Winch sucks vs other heavies
no it doesnt
how come you think that?

everyone staying close together so when you're grabbed you can call it out and heavy gets melted
teamwork should always win
it shouldn't be required to kill a single player

which is especially bad for those looking to have fun in casual

I mean medium and heavy at the time and now can play at decent range only class who absolutely needs to close is light
they can play decently at range, true
but they cant force range
a lot of the cashouts are inside, where a heavy can just wait
if you dont move in, you will loose and when you do you get winched

[shell sonnet]

Like I said I think both are incredibly problematic
dash is probematic to a very specific kind of player, that can always swap off, should they have enough of it

winch is problematic to everyone, and no matter what you do, it will remain an issue

winch is way worse

[fleet brook]

"not useless you'd need to play smart"

Sorry I can't outplay any time I close the distance someone presses 1-2 buttons and immediately I'm down any util I used + I have to restart this chase all the meanwhile they're whittling down my health

[fleet brook]

Dash also screws over map design

Dash is / was the everything In one light specilzaitions

You can nerf winch's range (which they did and they'll eventually make it useless) you can't fix dash

[shell sonnet]

But giving winch to medium won't do anything but kill it's usage
medium doesnt 1-shot people with melee and doesnt have the tools to engage in melee fight
on melee you can actually outplay winch and come out on top, making i way less annoying
and since its no longer on heavy, it removes that annoyment

it will be used less but still have uses, not being abused by literally everyone is the point of this suggestion

That's like back then someone saying give dash to medium
yeah, except dash has no reason to be swapped, while winch does

[fleet brook]

Embark has this weird trend of shooting themselves in the foot when releasing new stuff then either over nerf the thing

Get rid of it all together

Or just have blantanly annoying stuff in there games and just shrugging

[shell sonnet]

yes, exactly
sometimes, you just cant win with melee, if thats the case you can swap off melee and just play normally

when someone is using winch there is nothing you can swap to to make playing feel decent, you're just out of luck

[chrome bobcat]

be embark
Release the coolest weapon ever (dual blades)
Make it so bad it's basically unusable
Give it 6 skins
:trollface:

[fleet brook]

Also now you leave heavy with no gap closer and we're back to the dash impossible to catch situation

And people who are decent at the game backing up and shooting you at the same time

Either you waste your util you waste your health or both for maybe a kill hoping they don't get away

[shell sonnet]

we dont need to fix dash, its only a problem to an already very limiting playstyle that can be countered easily by just using a gun

no matter what you do, winch is a problem

[fleet brook]

Hey ya know this thing that literally kills an entire playstyle and a whole version of weapon design

Yeah

Nah leave it alone obviously it's cool

Imagine if you made a tool that exclusively would destroy all attempts at mid range gun fighting and then shrugged and left it alone

[chrome bobcat]

I wish meele weapons gave you a passive speed buff (look at demoman tf2)

[fleet brook]

Also melee used to be better before dash because I don't know what the design team was on when they made a screw an entire playstyle option after making literal wall hacks

Remember before dash there was just literal wall hacks

It's like embark can't go a drop cycle without releasing something that breaks there game

[shell sonnet]

Also now you leave heavy with no gap closer and we're back to the dash impossible to catch situation
heavy doesnt need a cap closer
sledge deals so much damage that they just win if they get in your face
that is your job, get close, not stay close

for which you can use charge n slam, mesh and goo gun
everything works

And people who are decent at the game backing up and shooting you at the same time
and that is the intended counter
you need to abuse heavies high melee dps to make sure they dont get to

[chrome bobcat]

Yea and then they stop balancing all together and take a break... Funny business

[shell sonnet]

dude, i never said that

dash is not ok against melee players
but at least they can swap off it and keep playing the game

winch ruins it for everyone

[fleet brook]

Okay I want you to explain something to me

How is the slowest class even with using utility

Remember heavy is the slowest class so if you see a melee heavy and have any reaction time you've now made him useless but

How is the slowest class supposed to close distance

Sledge's DPS is so high because it punishes stupid or bad play because that's the only way a heavy gap closed on you before

Or you turned a corner and there was a melee heavy

[chrome bobcat]

I cast "reserve swap only on round end"

[fleet brook]

Heavies main way of "outplaying" was mainly praying charge and slam got them close enough or you'd run into a wall

[shell sonnet]

thats the reason i hate comp

ive used that as arguments agains the "rock, paper, scossors" balance idea before

it sucks

[fleet brook]

Otherwise you'd just back off and shrug and accept

"I'm never gonna catch this man"

Also there was no way in hell or heaven a heavy was catching a light unless it was a very close quarters map

Which a decent bit of the og maps were but new maps are super open with super long sightlines

Basically as time went on melee heavy went from

Okay to niche to dead

Melee medium was always dead

And lights melee and close range has always had a consistent player base

[chrome bobcat]

Id say winch singlehandedly made spoon somewhat viable

[chrome bobcat]

Meele medium is just a meme and embark knows it. How the fuck do you make a worse version of the fucking shield thingy

[fleet brook]

Winch single handedly (coupled with lmg nerfs) made sledge one of heavies best options

[shell sonnet]

then you were playing it wrong, no offense
that thing could put in work, but you needed to play it right

[fleet brook]

Did you play it in ranked?

In pubs yeah it was decent but that's because most people in pubs couldn't space correctly nor knew how to play the map

[chrome bobcat]

It just wasn't fun. I don't want to master something that isn't fun even if it makes it somewhat viable

Not really but it's not bad

[shell sonnet]

no

but you cant make everything viable for comp
stuff like dagger, riot or dual blades will always fall behind

with winch they overly buffed sledge into comp-viability at the expense of everyones fun
not healthy for the game

[chrome bobcat]

They could be viable if they buffed them

[shell sonnet]

Otherwise you'd just back off and shrug and accept

"I'm never gonna catch this man"

Also there was no way in hell or heaven a heavy was catching a light unless it was a very close quarters map
in which case, again, you could swap off melee

but winch is always a problem

[fleet brook]

Jesus sledge in ranked was a horrible experience because people played smart basically melee heavy didn't exist in ranked

Sledge was purely a utility/ pub stomping weapon

[shell sonnet]

and thats how it shouldve stayed imo

now its viable in ranked at the cost of making playing miserable, overall a loss for the game

[fleet brook]

A terrible unviable meme weapon that's only good against bad players?

[shell sonnet]

and maybe they could

they also could buff sledge

but they need to do it in a way thats not annoying

winch buffed sledge by giving them a free 1-shot against anyone

[fleet brook]

So much so that if you picked it in ranked your team thought you were throwing?

[shell sonnet]

not perfect

but at least the game is still fun for everyone else

[fleet brook]

Basically if you picked anyone but maybe melee light in ranked you were hard throwing

Again I think people just accept mediums melee will always suck

[shell sonnet]

and thats ok
because at least they arent actively ruining the fun

ehem ehem

we could compare that to nukes

when nukes were removed, the heavies that abused it had less fun
but everyone else is now having more fun

winch is the opposite way
melee heavies now have more fun
and everyone else less

[teal ginkgo]

Idk about that sword light is still pretty fun

[fleet brook]

What about the people who want to try and have fun playing melee if that's the case just don't have melee in the game

[fleet brook]

Technically even lights could do nukes you'd just need coordination

[teal ginkgo]

Even so if you smack a light with a explosive barrel head on they die instantly

[kind swift]

I personally love using revolver and sniping the melee heavy as he chases me 🤷‍♂️

[teal ginkgo]

The rush of killing a melee heavy with a sword if pretty far out as well

[fleet brook]

Ya know you should apply at embark with that thinking you'd fit in perfectly with the design team

[shell sonnet]

That implies they missed the winch

If they hit the winch youre dead

[jade violet]

guys

MP5 and M11 which Better

[shell sonnet]

I probably wouldnt

But i can try to make them aware of issues others and i are having and suggest ways i think they could be fixed

Im not a game dev, and some of my suggestions are probably absolute bologne
But there is nothing wrong with making them

Maybe they spark different, better ideas that they could consider instead

Thats why i make such lengthy discussions as well
I want to put as much explaination and weight behind my opinions as possible

[fleet brook]

It was playing sarcasm

[fleet brook]

MP5 range

Up close M11

[jade violet]

I want a good SMG to play with,my dashes

I dont wanna use SH1900

[shell sonnet]

Mp5 is better for range, but performs pretty much just as well up close imo

Id take mp5

[jade violet]

although its really powerful

[chrome bobcat]

Buff all meele weapons by giving you a passive movement speed bonus

[valid garnet]

Had a meme build for light (i dont play light often) involving cloak, vanishing bomb, smokes and any gadget you want for the last choice worked surprisingly well for powershift

you vanish bomb first then cloak after a few seconds and when your reviving or waiting on your cloak you throw smoke gernades

its a diffrent type of light build for sure your not running around gunning stuff and instead sneaking around ambushing things or supporting the team (snipers and turrets hate you)

[shell sonnet]

A big part of melee's balance is getting into range and staying in range

If you just makes them faster its will either make it trivial or not impactful enough, depending on how much you buff the speed

Something else would be preferable

[chrome bobcat]

I mean why else would you run dagger when you've got a gun that 2 shots heavy

[shell sonnet]

good question

i guess you only need to hit once?
infinite ammo? (being slightly better close range self defence, but thats just hella risky anyways)

even stun gun just does some of daggers jobs better

more range, works from any direction

only downsides are that it needs to reload and that it doesn't actually do damage (but it still performs better against melee than dagger)

[rotund topaz]

I feel like the dual blade need to be faster at slashing, especially the last form when attacking where it does the X form, so many close call
but other melee weapon is fine ig, the sword user is frustrating when they're not spam atk (they know when to release the charge atk)

also blocking using it feels useless, the amount of dmg taken is a lot (You can't run), at least walking normal and not slowed is a better way to counter this? idk just random thoughts

[digital zinc]

I want a 93R buff. Something small like a slightly faster fire rate, or a little more damage.

[sonic kernel]

They could call it whatever they want, I just want my lightsaber/"laser sword"/"beam weapon" as someone who basically only plays sword light.

[sonic kernel]

I would propose a specialization for medium that lets you spring faster than any other classes that you could run when playing dual blade. That way you could close the distance much easier with the trade off of not being able to use heal beam or demat.

[cunning kettle]

so like a dash?

seeing a medium dash with dual blades would be scary asf

[sonic kernel]

I was thinking more of just an enhanced sprint, not quite a dash. Similar to how soldier 76 can sprint in overwatch where no other character can.

[cunning kettle]

mediums become the new fastest class 💀

[chrome bobcat]

You still need to hit a quick meele on heavies

[shell sonnet]

already right up their bum, while theyre looking away
i dont think that is much of a difference

[chrome bobcat]

Bro you can even miss the 2nd slash of dual blades. Take nothing for guaranteed in this game

[shell sonnet]

i dont, i know how hard you can be screwed over
but with dagger it rarely happens to me

[chrome bobcat]

Still you can 2 shot a heavy in the face (also I'm just a sucker for double barrel shotguns)

[fleet brook]

Also everyone but lights melee weapons are basically designed like
"You closed the gap wth here's a decent amount of damage you win"
(Taking dash out of the equation here)

Most heavies melee were designed with
"You've done this Sisyphian task I guess here's a kill maybe two if the enemies are grouped up"

Basically melee is balanced/ designed around the fact that you're very likely never gonna close the distance imo

And tbf the old combo for sledge didn't even really involve sledge to kill the person

[chrome bobcat]

What about Demat tho. I can just open a wall and close it

[fleet brook]

Demats better for ice fishing

[vale obsidian]

it ddose count as mobility item but i won't count it as combat mobility

which is what we want for med rn

[shell sonnet]

^this

melee heavy was balanced because they had to get into breath smelling distance, but if they did you died (deserved imo)

but they dont need to do that anymore
if they have winch and youre within 15 meters, then youre 1 button press away from dying

it removes the skillful part of getting close that made sledge balanced
(made even worse by the fact that a lot of the action happens inside, where you cant stay further away than 15 meters)

just lowering range made it happen slightly less often while also nerfing utility
something else needs to happen

[chrome bobcat]

If you miss the claw you're most likely dead tho since you just gave away your position. Also meele heavy was just a meme

[vale obsidian]

(cough cough) teammate meat shield and cover

[shell sonnet]

inside its very easy to run away

and if they just run around a corner for example, then you cant even follow them because they can just camp there and jump you

and dont forget, its on the tankiest class, which can take the odd chip shot or so and be fine

[chrome bobcat]

You don't winch people inside from 12 meters

[shell sonnet]

weird, because thats pretty much every winch heavy i meet

[vale obsidian]

idk what you mean by that

[chrome bobcat]

They usually try to get greedy outside which you can easily punish

[shell sonnet]

no?
i mean, they do

but theres plenty enough heavies that just disallow you from existing outside

kinda like a reverse sniper

[vale obsidian]

crazy cus in my lobby heavy hammer always play in doors

[shell sonnet]

funny enough actually

dont like snipers? just exist indoors
dont like winch? just go outside

imma just escape into a black hole then

[vale obsidian]

and they say skill issue lmao

[chrome bobcat]

Honestly just delete snipers

[hardy dust]

At least snipers can't do much for the objective

[shell sonnet]

skins exist, cant

rework to be a mid-range dmr
or give it terrain destruction (with fall-off obviously)

[vale obsidian]

terrain destruction on a light gun? that feels worng

[chrome bobcat]

Lh1 is basically that

[shell sonnet]

thats why id prefer terrain destruction

but higher risk-higher reward lh1 works too

we have 3 different assault rifles that do basically the same with little difference

[chrome bobcat]

I dunno man maybe make sniper a projectile

[shell sonnet]

screws over low level players
remains just as problematic for high level ones

and it would probably feel bad to use

[chrome bobcat]

Projectile snipers feel soooo much better than any hitscan weapon ever could

[shell sonnet]

Ok, to be fair, i dont really play games that have projectile snipers

So i probably dont have the most well informed opinion how shooting it might feel

But it still keeps the issue of good players being too opressive
(And maybe bad players overshoot, but because of travel time it still hits, might keep it just as much of an issue on power shift)

@solemn forum
you get punished for your teammates choice of also using defib (good luck coordinating that in casual)
you get to use the items that signify your playstyle less often
and it can just be saved until the very last second, when its most important, on the last push to take the cashout, brute forcing a win anyways

it punishes casuals and doesn't stop comp players from abusing it

please dont be discouraged, keep giving ideas, but i dont think this one would be all that helpful

[tiny bolt]

whats the best heavy shotgun dps wise

[shell sonnet]

Dps? Sa1216 probably

If youre good with movement, sh1900 is a beast, most can barely react before theyre dead if you hit your shots

Model 1887 for range

[mint kraken]

I've got a cool idea for a new gadget:
It's a backpack and let's you use another specialization as one of your other gadget slots. Basically 2 gadget slots to get an extra specialization

[kind swift]

i feel they nerfed it because you just have to stay out of range

[chrome bobcat]

Too op

[hardy dust]

Sa12

[shell sonnet]

in a close range game?

sure, you sometimes face them under the open sky

but often, especially around objectives, you need to get inside
where you are always within lethal range

[chrome bobcat]

Can we agree that a sniper shouldn't do 115 per body shot at meele range?

[hardy dust]

It should

It shouldn't do 115 at long range

[shell sonnet]

no

i want it to not be a cross map gun
any reason they have to stay close is good to me

[hardy dust]

Quickscoping sniper actually fits in the game

Camping sniper doesn't

[shell sonnet]

puts themselfes at decent risk too

isnt annoying to fight

quit respectable even imo

[crisp heart]

The should have adapted the tf2 charge sniper mechanic

[chrome bobcat]

Either you delete the sniper or you make the sniper as close as possible to a shotgun

[chrome bobcat]

Absolutely not. Sniper is the most unbalanced class in tf2

[hardy dust]

Having be good at midrange and viable at close range (since quickscopes are pretty hard compared to other guns) would be fine

[shell sonnet]

doesnt need to be
lh1 is medium range
make it close to lh1

[kind swift]

another option is to stay behind cover and bait the claw

it does come out slowish

[chrome bobcat]

Give the sniper reverse damage fall off or something

[hardy dust]

Why?
All the issues with sniper are because it's the only decent gun at longer ranges, not because it can be used up close

[chrome bobcat]

Yea let's just make the sniper a lh1 reskin. I actually vibe with this. It's like a sidegrade to the lh1

[shell sonnet]

if you always stay behind cover you arent fighting them
you need to be exposed sometimes

and a decent heavy can play around bait attempts

it does come out slowish
not really, also have you seen the hitbox on that thing?
they can miss and still pull you from around a corner

[remote swan]

i’d much rather deal with someone sniping one room down, instead of 2 buildings down

[hardy dust]

You can't react to claw, you just have to hope the heavy messes up

[chrome bobcat]

Ah yes my favourite game mechanic. Praying

[hardy dust]

Same thing with rpg, hope the heavy messes up

[covert parcel]

make a sniper a cqb "quicksnipe" instead of play "infinite effective range while you only have 30M" ?

[crisp heart]

Snipers are a common annoyance in a lot of FPS games. Are you sure their OP? Or is the person using the sniper just good

[covert parcel]

this game its literally just the effective range is near infinite

[shell sonnet]

ok, on another note

defib
what if we make it charge for 3 seconds, but it instantly revives

3 seconds is a time id reasonably expect someone to react and have a chance to kill a medium at walking speed

mediums would need to wait until theyre sure its save, charge behind cover or use stuff like goo to make cover

and it still saves time overall on revives

[hardy dust]

They're not op, just annoying and uninteractive to fight

[covert parcel]

yeah

[remote swan]

i don’t really find sniper hard to deal with

[chrome bobcat]

It's not about being op it's about being unfun

[hardy dust]

I don't mind unless it on power shift

[covert parcel]

so a longer prep or a instant into a quicker hold e?

[covert parcel]

exactly, the stay out of position which is a valid trade off

[crisp heart]

If you guys really want to stop snipers from cqcing. They should increase the zoom of their scope

[shell sonnet]

you dont deal with them though
you just exist under them

theyre either shooting down on you and you cant damage them
and if you do try to attack them, they just run away

just hope the objective isnt outside

[hardy dust]

I want to increase sniper cqc

And decrease their ranged ability

[remote swan]

i just use goo to block sight lines

[covert parcel]

quick scoper

[hardy dust]

Yeah exactly

[shell sonnet]

stationary
only good if you dont need to move

[chrome bobcat]

"just avoid sight lines duh!"

[covert parcel]

better for marketability

[shell sonnet]

charge for 3 seconds while at walking speed (which currently takes ~0.8 seconds)
after which, the target instantly comes back (instead of entering the 3 second animation)

[kind swift]

ehh true.

for some reason I just haven't had a bad experience with the winch.

sure it sucks to go against, but its a fun specialization.

[crisp heart]

Significanly increase the zoom of their scope and watch them try to aim at you from across the room while you strafe

[chrome bobcat]

That would just incetivize even more to go as far away as possible (this is a bad thing btw)

[kind swift]

It would be so much easier to snipe from farther away

which not a lot of people would like

[shell sonnet]

sure it sucks to go against, but its a fun specialization.
undeniably
but i do have a comparison: nukes

when nukes were a thing, heavies were having fun with it
but everyone else had less fun because of them
nukes were removed, and the overall fun has increased

winch is similar in my opinion
winch heavies have more fun, but at the cost of everyone else

[chrome bobcat]

Not a single person would like that

[crisp heart]

but it would work as intended, not a glorified shotgun and a bit easier to punish

[covert parcel]

i see i see

[remote swan]

i think for defib, what i would personally do is make the revive act as a normal revive (default health, speed, i-frames, etc.), and have a destructible object about the size of the anti-grav cube that cancels it
it would make the defibs advantage lean more towards being able to defend yourself while reviving instead of having faster revives
that’s just my take though

[shell sonnet]

wouldnt help, i have an explaination here somewhere, hold on

[covert parcel]

id like it to be a shorter hold e
while holding defib, use E / LMB to 2.5s rez
whatever % health to balance the hole e timer

[shell sonnet]

@remote swan

[chrome bobcat]

That's exactly the problem. The "intended" sniper is just ASS in concept and ass in practice. Just plain unfun to play and go against + this is a somewhat team based shooter so having 1 guy be 200 meters away from his team is just contraproductive game design

[shell sonnet]

i spend too much time in this chat

[kind swift]

true true

Although again, the winch claw doesnt cause you to get one tapped (unless your light and dont dash or grapple away)

This makes the winch feel like you atleast have a chance vs wtf i got nuked out of no where

[chrome bobcat]

They should let you attack while in the winch animation low-key

[covert parcel]

clearly youve never played ow or lol

[shell sonnet]

doesnt need to 1-tap

a sledge heavy swinging is just as fast as a medium
a heavy doesn't outrun another heavy by default

and even if they only hit once, rpg just kills you right after

[chrome bobcat]

I played overwatch. I almost died from boringness (except when playing Lucio he's cool)

[kind swift]

that would make the winch so much better

W suggestion

[covert parcel]

have you not played tank in goats or double shield

[hardy dust]

Not really. If the heavy doesn't mess up you're guaranteed dead

[covert parcel]

what the fuck is healing, DEATHBALL 🗣️ 🔥

[shell sonnet]

oh and before it sounds like that

im not saying winch is as strong as nukes
theyre miles apart

but they do share the concept of "1 guy gets to have fun, screw the others"

[kind swift]

again my argument of "you're close quarters, just go to cover"

[chrome bobcat]

Tanks are too slow for me

[hardy dust]

And just... not fight them?

[shell sonnet]

just % would mean you could tap it and instantly get them (at like 10 hp)
so i wouldnt like that

otherwise i agree

[chrome bobcat]

Mfw I get a kill: (only I had fun and the other guy didn't and that wasn't very fair at all)

[kind swift]

makes sense, and i can see how it can be more fun for the heavy

but when next season comes out, who will get more new stuff? probably the medium or light

[hardy dust]

Except one way to get a kill takes skill and has counterplay while the other doesnt

[covert parcel]

ive played main / off tank in OW mostly, its a cousin to to heavy
heavy does not need a closer tool in high elo

[crisp heart]

Snipers are either being 200m away constantly, or using it as a shotgun with its current status. Forcing them to play the weapon as it was intended eliminates one of the issues, While the playerbase figures out how to be an effective while being 200m away sniping.I'd say that's a win

[remote swan]

i don’t know
having longer time until the player actually revives, plus a decently low hp object that cancels it would let you have some more breathing room to either kill the medium, or force them to back off, which lets you cancel the revive

[covert parcel]

how long you hold it = how much HP they get
lower HP = faster animation to fight back

[kind swift]

you can run, using cover to not get murked, and shoot them when your farther away

why fight if you know you cant tank the heavy?

[shell sonnet]

now that i think about it a bit more, winch is a little like nukes though

nukes take the 1-shots to the enemy
winch takes the enemy to you for a 1-shot

[covert parcel]

lower HP = faster animation to fight back

[remote swan]

i actually kinda like this

[shell sonnet]

which means they could just tap it, removing the risk id like to see

[hardy dust]

Hence the "just don't get within 12m of heavy" counterplay.
It sucks and it's horrid game design

[covert parcel]

you can still do both, its just a trade off

[kind swift]

Lol fr 😆

[crisp heart]

They should add stun effect to the defib. It'll be funny

[chrome bobcat]

I don't think so at all. It'd rather make it a quick scope machine or glorified shotgun so that I can actually shoot back than a mosquito killing me from 200 m away (he doesn't even take up a pixel on my screen)

[remote swan]

you would have to do something about the defib, and heal combo with that at least

[shell sonnet]

but not a good one

the entire idea was making defib a little more risky to balance it

if you could just tap it, there wouldn't be any risk
basically making the change pointless

[kind swift]

still, when in the game, its fun to try to figure out how to play against the heavy in the moment

The Finals is crazy destructive so crap changes alot

[covert parcel]

no like you tap it, they come back in .5 seconds BUT they have 1% HP

[hardy dust]

No its not. It's literally don't get near them or you die.

[covert parcel]

OR you hold for 2 seconds, rez anim for 2 seconds, 100% HP

[kind swift]

I have gotten away from heavy winches befor

[hardy dust]

There's no fun in dying because you got near a heavy and they pressed 1 button

[shell sonnet]

no

[hardy dust]

In range? That's cuz the heavy messed up

[shell sonnet]

which means the medium got a risk-less, free revive and another person you need to chase down

making it pointless

[covert parcel]

the dude has 1 HP tho and ur looking right at him

[kind swift]

lol that would suck

Tbh I like the defib as it is

[chrome bobcat]

There's no fun in dying because you got near a light and they pressed 1 button. Same point different class

[covert parcel]

@kind swift

[remote swan]

i think i-frames would have to be removed for that defib to be balanced

[hardy dust]

The only thing on light that does that is dagger lmao

[shell sonnet]

and while youre occupied with shooting them so they dont get away, the medium turns around and beams you

same issue as before

an instant 2v1 situation

[chrome bobcat]

I was talking about the double barrel but sure

[kind swift]

oooh that would be interesting

[hardy dust]

2 hits and they have to be point blank in your face

[chrome bobcat]

Same as the winch. Still 1 button

[hardy dust]

Except winch has 12m range and you can't counterplay it

[chrome bobcat]

Only difference is light actually is taking risks while doing so

[shell sonnet]

db is imho a little busted

they buffed it so they could compete with rpg heavies

instead of just...
nerfing rpg...

[remote swan]

the fact that winch ignores shield is what scares me

[crisp heart]

I rather have the sniper be forced to go in and die because both their teammates died and their cashout is getting stolen.

[kind swift]

Tbh lights are dumb too... one spray of an smg and im dead? as a heavy???

[shell sonnet]

meanwhile data reshaper can reshape it, but only while inside the dome

why

[hardy dust]

If you dont do anything and stand still?

[covert parcel]

clearly you havent played HHM

[hardy dust]

You can shoot back, place cover, get behind cover etc...

[chrome bobcat]

Data reshaper is the biggest meme gadget ever

[kind swift]

cashout

[remote swan]

let me reshape the dome into goo, and trap them inside the orb

[hardy dust]

Anything will kill you when stealing...

[kind swift]

in .5 seconds?

[shell sonnet]

i like the idea of it

but it just doesnt do it well

i once tried to reshape a heavies rpg (which they have shown in a trailer)
i spammed the button to catch it, accidentally reshaped a flower pot twice, and died

[hardy dust]

That's only if you're stealing as a light and get beamed

[shell sonnet]

would data reshaper be busted if it had infinite ammo?

[chrome bobcat]

He didn't go in when his team was holding, he's not gonna go in after his team died holding. He would rather keep getting cheap kills rather than winning. That's just how snipers are

[hardy dust]

And no cooldown? Yeah probably

[kind swift]

maybe? but it wouldnt hurt to give it more ammo

[shell sonnet]

maybe with way lower range

so turrets actually get to do somehing before you reach them

[remote swan]

i remember seeing data reshaper getting added, and thinking “wow, this will be so useful” only to realize that to use it on enemy gadgets will almost always get me instantly shot

[chrome bobcat]

No it would still be C tier gadget

[kind swift]

nahh i rez my teamates as a sniper

in and out no fighting

[shell sonnet]

that way you at least dont waste charges trying to reshape a rocket 🥲

[kind swift]

fr 😆 🥲

[hardy dust]

Imagine the carriable spam you could do with inf ammo

[chrome bobcat]

If your mates didn't already quit cuz ur playing sniper 💀

[crisp heart]

Yes, why not? They are supposed to be the ambush class, if they managed to get close enough to have all the bullets hit without you killing them with their glass cannon health, then that's on you. I keep saying this, but nerf light enough and we will have the same issue as overwatch having only 1 meta, the H and M meta

[kind swift]

thats why the just add more ammo

[shell sonnet]

the chairs around the cashout are gone in 2 seconds
(if there even are any, ehem ehem, monaco)

[kind swift]

facts

[remote swan]

just merge data reshaper and dematerializer into one

[kind swift]

BROOOO

[chrome bobcat]

Honestly

[shell sonnet]

we would loose the level up items

and i do feel like they deserve a separate identity

[kind swift]

Get this man in embark

[chrome bobcat]

Recon is calling

[remote swan]

we already got rid of recon

[shell sonnet]

still sad that i felt like recon was cheese, didnt play it because of it, and never got the items

[remote swan]

unless they re-add recon as an ability to see canisters and gadgets through walls instead of players or something

[chrome bobcat]

Literally who cares about items. We're discussing game balance here

[covert parcel]

defib rebalance:

how long you hold = HP restored
lower HP = faster "hologram" animation to fight back
(still a flat 1s animation, so (1 second + HP value timer) is the rez time)

hit me with a yes or no

[crisp heart]

We have a weapon that throws explosive grenades, we have a weapon that throws fire.
Should we have a weapon that shoots out gas?

Complete the trinity

[chrome bobcat]

Probably (even tho it would be annoying as fuck and my PC would blow up if I see that fighting against a flamethrower)

[shell sonnet]

i know

but thats my personal experience
it sucks when items are straight up removed

recon had it coming, but still

[kind swift]

👆

[remote swan]

i just want recon back in some form, even if it doesn’t see players

[kind swift]

anyone remember the recon nerf?

[remote swan]

yes

[chrome bobcat]

I wish they removed sniper and just gave everyone a refund on the skins...

[kind swift]

no

[shell sonnet]

what if it ping'ed the buildings
not sure how to explain it

but you would see holes, possbile flanks

and alongside that gadgets and carryables

[kind swift]

Its like the revolver to me

with less range to damage drop off

[shell sonnet]

like an energetic outline of the buildings around you

[remote swan]

i honestly think just gadgets and canisters would be enough to get use out of, but holes could be cool too

[chrome bobcat]

Revolver at least takes up more than 1 pixel of my screen

[crisp heart]

Honestly, I wish they'll double down on it and make a sniper weapon version for Medium and heavy

[remote swan]

i want a dmr for medium

[chrome bobcat]

I'm taking hostage embarkhq

[kind swift]

I personally have beamed a light sniper with the revolver many a time

[shell sonnet]

please no

sniper lights are already a downgrade in combat

you now want mediums and heavies to handycap themselves in normal fights, just to reasonably fight back against 1 light thats annoying them?

[chrome bobcat]

Bad snipers will try to stay close to their teams

[remote swan]

i get good use out of it by staying close

[chrome bobcat]

Honestly I don't know how anybody could ever enjoy a long range weapon in a medium-meele range game

I think anyone who likes snipers is just ragebait like seriously

[kind swift]

Was there not an argument that the sniper is just a shotgun just a second ago?

[kind swift]

I love it

it takes skill

If you cant aim worth crap coughmeelecough

[chrome bobcat]

If you actually try to go to the sniper he can just body shot + dash + quick meele and bam you're dead because you're a light

[chrome bobcat]

I don't care if it takes skill It's not fun to play and play against. Stop with your shitty ragebaits buddy

[remote swan]

if you’re in range to get quick melee’d from a dash then you should be in range to shoot them unless you’re using a shotgun, or melee

[kind swift]

now how many sweaty players do you play with? most lights I fight freak tf out when i get close to them

[crisp heart]

It's fun though, plus it promotes communication with teammates since the gateway and other movement gadgets is very helpful if you have an immobile sniper on your team

Mines, motion sensor, etc would help them survive more too

[kind swift]

ok mr I have been killed by one to many snipers and now im pissed and will argue this one point for an hour

also if you dont like it, dont dog on others who like it

[kind swift]

also it is the same with a sword

worse in fact

[crisp heart]

I do the same thing with a sword

[chrome bobcat]

All my homies hate snipers. Fuck snipers

[chrome bobcat]

Can't 1 shot a class from across the map with a sword

[crisp heart]

You can with gateway

[chrome bobcat]

My god I'm discussing balancing with people who enjoy snipers. I'm going to sleep now and try to forget people like y'all actually exist

[kind swift]

across the map? you mean from the top of the nearest building

[remote swan]

goodnight

[shell sonnet]

even more snipers, that are also harder to kill via chip-damage due to increased hp?
while they have the option to just slam me with 140 damage+ body shot me should i get close?

[kind swift]

and facts

[chrome bobcat]

Thanks :3

[remote swan]

no problem :3

[kind swift]

sleep well my guy

[crisp heart]

Again, snipers are generally hated in most fps games. It's just a matter of whether they're good at aiming or you're just an easy target

[remote swan]

honestly, the finals is one of the few games where i think snipers have a good amount of counter-play

[crisp heart]

Hell yeah! That would be funny you have to admit.

[shell sonnet]

so why keep them?

with our destruction gimmik we have a perfectly valid niche to put it in thats good to use and not ass to face

the finals could be better than all the others and actually make a good, well balanced sniper

@night gate while you try to glitch, the medium shoots you
it would be better, but not good

good idea though

[crisp heart]

Why keep them? Because there are players who likes these kinds of scoped guns. The finals did a good job covering most of the weapon type from different fps games into one game.

[kind swift]

I personally love the challange of using it (because my aim sucks, so it makes me improve)

[shell sonnet]

i think this is a similar thing to nukes and winch
a few players get to have fun, at the expense of everyone else

if we change it, less people will be annoyed
but we have all the potential too keep it fun in some other way

no matter what we do, its a net-gain

[remote swan]

i honestly find sniper fun to go against

[shell sonnet]

lucky you

if you check feedback/ the old ps feedback you will find that thats a rarity

[remote swan]

i have seen the feedback

[kind swift]

the thing is, each class has things that make it super fun vs the other classes

so it doesnt matter which class you play

[shell sonnet]

why did they even lock it to begin with

[night gate]

The finals is the only game that I generally enjoy playing sniper, i suck at using the weapon but that’s what makes it fun. 🙂

[kind swift]

same

[shell sonnet]

im not quit sure what you mean

could you give a little more detail please?

[kind swift]

Defibs / healing beam is crazy fun and sometimes sucks to play against

Winch and explosive stuff from heavy

And sniper and the ttk on their guns for lights

also recon

[remote swan]

i enjoy dual blades while fighting lights, because they kill themselves before they realize they should stop firing

[crisp heart]

I can say the same thing with a lot of weapons, "TK is so broken, imagine having a high powered weapon that doesn't reload and you can just spam, they're just having fun at the expense of others"

[night gate]

I love dual blades ❤️

[crisp heart]

"Man, RPG is so broken. Who thought it was a good idea for a gadget to one hit kill a light?"

It's literally the same thing with sniper

[shell sonnet]

those are all things that need re-balancing

"this item is busted, so this should be allowed to be busted too" is not a good balance philosophy

if all were re-balanced, they wouldn't be annoying
and they wouldn't need to be as strong, because they don't need to out-compete each other

[shell sonnet]

exactly
thats why i want to see rpg changed too

[crisp heart]

Re-balancing is good, yes.
Removing weapons? Nah

[remote swan]

this is my philosophy when it comes to balance

[night gate]

Re-balancing a weapon in a way that doesn’t strip its uniqueness or power fantasy 👉🏻

[crisp heart]

Also, consider the fact that no matter how "balanced" a weapon may be, people will always complain. (Especially after a bad game)

[remote swan]

preferably keep it within the same niche, so it doesn’t get rid of the people who enjoyed it before
i’ll never forgive apex legends reworking revenant

[hardy dust]

Depends, if you aren't gonna rework it, removing it is sometimes better.
Look at recon sense for example

[remote swan]

or they could temporarily disable it like cashout ranked

[night gate]

Instead of nerfing or buffing damage and cool downs maybe experimenting with recoil patterns or other weapon properties?

[remote swan]

i don’t want them to touch any more recoil patterns

[hardy dust]

That's a horrid idea that embark has been doing

Changing recoil patterns sucks in every way possible

[arctic fog]

Very true

[night gate]

I honestly think that moving rpg to the weapon category wouldn’t be a bad idea. Medium damage with a very long reload time

[crisp heart]

Speaking of rework, have they fixed Shield yet? Is it still buggy?

[hardy dust]

💀

You can't use you main weapon for 45s after shooting??

[arctic fog]

The dome shield nerf was a bit extreme imo

[hardy dust]

It was that extreme, but it didn't need a nerf

[night gate]

True i always believe that the problem that heavy faces is his kit and how any weapon or gadget synergies really well. Wrench claw didn’t help

[crisp heart]

Yep, the baton and shield will never be playable

[arctic fog]

It already isn't

[crisp heart]

Whoops

[night gate]

Rip i was think about playing riot shield today too 💀

[arctic fog]

Except getting chased by triple riot shield. It's like a horror movie

[remote swan]

i play it
just hit level 4 yesterday on it

[crisp heart]

Easy triple kill if you're a sword light

[remote swan]

sledge is my mortal enemy

[arctic fog]

Heheheh that's me

[night gate]

Been using only dual blades i love them things

[remote swan]

i like the dual blades, but i always end up wanting my protection from the shield back

[crisp heart]

I don't know how to use them. Watched a video about it, and you actually have to use the rappel as a gap closer.

[night gate]

The duality of dual blades and shield do you want offensive damage or defense?

[remote swan]

i usually use it the same way as a riot shield
they both play pretty similar

[night gate]

Use pyro grande to soften them up, you’ll be surprised how how many people run because they are on fire. Or use them to finish them off

[remote swan]

i miss the old bug with the riot shield where the hitbox was active during interactions

[crisp heart]

They should add in a medieval skin for the riot shield

It would look so cool

[remote swan]

i fully agree
i want a lot of medieval skins

[glass anvil]

I agree

[night gate]

Medieval weapons would be dope

[shell sonnet]

id like to hear some opinions on something:

a gadget that insta-steals would remove risk in the same way defib sidesteps the risk of a normal revive

[remote swan]

disagree
you can at least pick up respawn trophies and run away with them unlike a cashout

[shell sonnet]

just the risk

that an instant steal would be more impactful is obvious

[night gate]

How would you balance that ?

[shell sonnet]

but you dont need to with defib

running away with a statue makes it safer
just like blocking doors with goo would for a cashout

you dont need to

[crisp heart]

Glitch grenade being able to cancel defib revives, I feel like that'll make it too useful.

[shell sonnet]

its not supposed to exist

its supposed to show how broken defib is

at least in the "removing risk" department

[night gate]

Made that same statement in the game-feedback chat. Cool idea probably wouldn’t solve the problem

[remote swan]

i’m just saying that there is already a good way of making a revive safe unlike stealing a cashout

[shell sonnet]

i think youre missing the point im trying to make

in the same way an item like this would remove the risk of sitting somewhere, while being vulnerable, for 7 seconds
defib removes the risk of sitting somewhere, while being vulnerable during a revive

[shell sonnet]

you can make revives safer by running away with them
and you can make steals safer with shields, goo, etc

but with an item that instantly completes it, you never have to

[remote swan]

anything you can do to make a cashout safer, you can do with a respawn trophy

[shell sonnet]

but thats not the point

you can make it safer, but if its virtually instant, you wont need to

instantly stealing a cashout would be busted
and while a revive is less impactful, removing the risk in the same way is still broken

[remote swan]

i find that the risk of the defib comes from the fact that you have to put away your weapon and do the small charge up time to get the revive, meaning if you aren’t careful with that part, then you can very easily die while trying to, or after getting the revive

it means you can’t fight back instantly while going for the revive

[crisp heart]

Yeah, defib needs to be looked at. There's a reason mediums always needs to carry them or else people will think they are trolling

[remote swan]

i’d swap them out if they weren’t broken right now

[shell sonnet]

you put your weapon away for about a second

ttk for a lot of weapons is ~1 second (with all headshots) iirc
which wont happen with the medium crouch spamming/bunny hopping (or if they just run around a corner or fall from a building)

if you do fight the medium, they will attack you back
if you manage to kill them, you will be on low hp and out of ammo, then the defibbed kills you
it brute forces a 2v1 on your end which pretty much always results in death

the only times i die before i get the defib off and shoot back, is if im being silly and charge from halfway across the room or run into 2 people
everything else is just a straight numbers advantage on the users end

[shell sonnet]

so you agree they're too strong?

[remote swan]

i do think they are too strong
also i don’t personally think that you should be as vulnerable while using a defib compared to a normal revive
i think that the issue comes from getting another player back that quickly

[crisp heart]

Yeah, I can't think of a reason not to carry defib. It's just a very safe way to revive someone. They try to balance it by making your teammate half health on revive, but it's pointless if they're invunerable on respawn.

I feel like they tried to imitate Mercy too much on this one

[shell sonnet]

be as vulnerable while using a defib compared to a normal revive
i dont want to make it useless obviously
but there needs to be some risk

charging it for 3 seconds total is both faster than a normal revive and less dangerous because of bunnyhops/crouch spamming
but gives the player a decent chance to kill the medium before they defib if they dont take precautions

i think that the issue comes from getting another player back that quickly
not sure how we could balance it around that part tbh

[glass anvil]

I just wann alevcel up man

[remote swan]

that’s why i had my suggestion
it kept the activating part the same amount of risk, but it made it so that the medium had to stay and defend the revive while it is reviving, or risk having their defib wasted and on cooldown

[shell sonnet]

youre referring to the "shoot the hologram" thing, right?

[remote swan]

yes, but as an object with low hp about the size of a trophy/ gravity cube

[crisp heart]

It'd be funny if they'd just allow you to be able to carry enemy statues

[shell sonnet]

so
what about the issue with the medium shooting you while you try to prevent it?

it only dictates that the medium has to stick close

its a slight restriction sure
but still just as strong in any other way

cant prevent it, if you fight it you die

[remote swan]

that’s what i was making into the advantage of a defib over a normal revive
the medium is now able to fight back while reviving, but if they fail, then they wasted the time it took to defib along with their cooldown

[night gate]

Use gadgets to soften the enemy up ?

[remote swan]

or to destroy the respawn

[shell sonnet]

but if they fail, then they wasted the time it took to defib along with their cooldown
and the enemy is dead
now they can do a normal revive in safety

its literally the result of the issue i mentioned

they tried to fight, died in the 2v1, and now they can revive again

[night gate]

That glitch grenade comment looking more viable

[remote swan]

if you lost to a medium who pulled out their defib while you still were able to shoot them, then you were going to lose anyways

[shell sonnet]

im pretty sure that gadget use leads to an overall slower ttk (except for rpg which is busted anyways)
if you try to sync a frag with the defib the medium kills you while you hold it because it need to be held during the animation

[remote swan]

yea

[shell sonnet]

you dont die to the defib medium

they shoot you, you take some damage and use your ammo on them
the 2nd guy kills you

[remote swan]

this is why the respawn takes longer in my suggestion

[raven gulch]

Second guy has 125 hp

[night gate]

Personally i would use things like sentry’s, gas and pyro grenades instead of frags,.

[shell sonnet]

then they would need to last so long you get to regen health

so over 12 seconds
i dont think thats your intention

ammo alone is not enough

[raven gulch]

yeah medium has lack of aoe damage so they cannot flip power balance between fight not like light or heavy

[remote swan]

either you win the fight you are in and stop the respawn, you lose the fight and they respawn anyways, or you didn’t play aggressive enough

[shell sonnet]

id like to make a simplified example on that

imagine you have 1 player with 200 hp, and 2 with 100
the total health pool is the same, 200
but the 2x100 hp players have twice the dps

that they only have 125 hp doesnt matter, because you will have less by then

[night gate]

The do have gas and fire tho so your not totally out of options to even the fight out tho