retired-patch-6-3-discussion

[teal geyser]

To be fair Yotsuyu never tried to win. Doesn't count

[torpid yoke]

True

[teal geyser]

That was a suicide

[torpid yoke]

Save the queen

[vital topaz]

Suicide-By-WoLs

[viscid monolith]

Of course she was trying to win

It was just a weak primal

[teal geyser]

No she...really wasn't. She was trying to die a villain

Because she couldn't live as Tsuyu

[vital topaz]

Are the other dead Ascians raging hardcore in the lifestream at fandanial going: "DUDE, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING!?!"

[severe brook]

Save the Queen is a little bit different since it's more a mechanized ritual, whereas other Hosted Primals don't necessarily need such artifacts to be summoned
though granted, quite a few Hosted Primals do use Artifacts in their summoning

[torpid yoke]

Cough tsukuyomi

[viscid monolith]

Ya she was trying to kill us she didn't throw the fight

[severe brook]

Shiva didn't though, and presumably Thordan became King Thordan at some point before we saw him do so using the Eye, since the Heavens' Ward were able to enter their Primal-Blessed forms before then

[clever flume]

just because she didn't throw the fight doesn't mean her aim wasn't to die

[teal geyser]

"Tsuyu must live"

[clever flume]

it was effectively a suicide by cop situation

[vital topaz]

I imagine at least Emet Selch and Elidibus are raging so fucking hard rn at Fandanial in the Lifestream, if not the rest of the dead convocation as well, while the comfortably play Triple Triad in the life stream

[teal geyser]

Literally saying she is going to die here

[torpid yoke]

I really feel bad for her

[viscid monolith]

Is she saying that when she's almost dead

[teal geyser]

End of phase 2 so no

This is as she gets her most strong

[viscid monolith]

Good enough for me

[teal geyser]

Like it's not even hard to realise this from a narrative standpoint. Didn't think I needed to drop the dialogue itself

[crystal arrow]

I thought it was pretty clear that she wanted to die as a villain, given that whole intermission phase lol

[teal geyser]

Also the fact she tried to kill herself already and also the ENTIRE nightblossom symbolism

[viscid monolith]

Could've just thrown herself off a cliff to save everyone the trouble but whatever works for her

[carmine basin]

It fits her well to chose to die but not without fighting for it

[clever flume]

i thought it was pretty clear when she kills her parents tbh

[vital topaz]

I might get flak for this, but I actually really liked Lahabrea's ARR Voice, especially with that cool voice effect that he gets in the Praetorium.

[clever flume]

she wasn't going to just lay down and die, c'mon

[torpid yoke]

Her parents deserved it

[clever flume]

not gonna disagree with that

[torpid yoke]

Also sorry for the ping

[crystal arrow]

not only is that not appropriate to her character it'd be shitty writing

[carmine basin]

I'm glad she got to kill Asahi too should've done a worse job so his corpse wouldn't be usable

[clever flume]

like she might've done that (and was TRYING TO DO THAT) when her parents interrupted her

[vital topaz]

Meh, that just means we get to kill "Asahi" twice, and that Asahi's voice actor has more good work to do!

[clever flume]

then shitlords interrupt everything and she's like...you know what. fuck it, i'm a villian and i'm going down fighting

[torpid yoke]

I miss the ARR ascian tounge

[vital topaz]

That is still there, there just isnt a scene where it needs to be used, like scenes with Ascians where we arent there to see them

[carmine basin]

Did Zenos die from blood loss or did he became headless nick from HP when he killed himself

[teal geyser]

Honestly fucking same

[teal geyser]

Why not both?

[indigo shale]

define we, because we as the WoL havent killed him at all, tsuyu killed him

[teal geyser]

Headless Nick wasn't entirely headless right? Or was that just from the movies?

[clever flume]

he was nearly headless

both movie and book noted that

[severe brook]

he had the little tether of skin in the books too

[vital topaz]

Lahabrea isnt the only one who gets a cool voice modifier when he uses his glyph, right?

I think Hades got one, too

[teal geyser]

Hades has done it with modified voice and without

everyone else I don't really remember

[vital topaz]

Man, I want to get hit with another Ultima to see what happens. I'm not talking about Werlyt Ultima, either, I'm talking the big huge Praetorium Ultima.

[severe brook]

Hades gets half a modifier when he announces his true name, then gets really distorted in Phase 2

[gaunt star]

didnt elidibus do it too when he got all pissy b4 transforming

[teal geyser]

Kinda, that was just half Ardbert voice IIRC

[vital topaz]

Isnt it implied through Hades' transformation that the other unsundered can also transform into abominations or is that just Emet Selch's specialty with his brand of creation magic?

[teal geyser]

It's said in the side story that the shit Emet pulls is very unique to him

[torpid yoke]

I am Hadesss, he who shall deliver their brethren from their dark slumbaaaaa

[gaunt star]

he said the body he was hosting was holding him back whatsoever

then bwaaa

[clever flume]

Through the thrum of gathering aether, he heard Hythlodaeus remark, "Never ceases to impress me..."

He knew well what his friend beheld─the unbridled power of the Underworld, pouring forth into his being. In such moments, he felt as if he was one with its flow. Though mages were plentiful, not even among the rest of the Fourteen could one find another capable of wielding such power.

Ere long, his transformation was complete, and Hythlodaeus was left to crane his neck up at him. "Indeed, there is no better candidate. Allow me to congratulate you again, Emet-Selch."

He let out a quiet breath, a sigh mingled with laughter. Then he faced the bird and set about his task.```

[teal geyser]

Jeez that was quick

[torpid yoke]

She keeps that Thang on her

[gaunt star]

Kael must have these copy pastas on text files

[vital topaz]

So we're probably not going to see Lahabrea turn into a giant darkness dragon/eldritch abomination in Pandaemonium, most likely?

[gaunt star]

are we even sure we are going to see laheebread lol

[clever flume]

easy enough to get to when its in the browser history lmao

[teal geyser]

I'm never going to say never, also going to say "Lahabrea" because I'm not even sure if this will be the real Lahabrea and not a copy

[gaunt star]

considering primal boi ate him

theres no way its the real one, specially when Elidibus also confirms both emet and him have died

[vital topaz]

I want it to be the real Lahabrea because we already fought a copy of Lahabrea in Hades EX (I know EXs are not canon, but still)

[teal geyser]

Shut it, Hades EX is canon in my heart. Is thematic perfection

[gaunt star]

ur headcanons are meaningless cali

https://tenor.com/view/god-hand-gene-beatdown-brawl-video-games-gif-16624350

[vital topaz]

Did Triple Triad exist in Amarout?

[teal geyser]

nooooooouuuu

[teal geyser]

It fucking better not

[gaunt star]

it did

i played 6.0 and Fandaniel caused the final days cause Elidibus, Azem and Emet beat him in triple triad non stop

[vital topaz]

Do you have FF8 Junction PTSD or something?

[teal geyser]

No just stop making everything fucking ancient shit. Let humanity create one thing by itself

[vital topaz]

good point

[severe brook]

i personally predict it'll be revealed that whatever fragment is left of Lahabrea's soul emerged from Nidhogg's eyes after they were destroyed in Royal Menagerie, and that he then possessed an old Primal design of his in Pandaemonium
so he's still "dead" but lingering

[gaunt star]

how about we stop thinking just cause X event happend on X FF game, it means it will happen in XIV too

[severe brook]

In Pandaemonium dead Lahabrea lay dreaming

[torpid yoke]

Would you count the ancients warbles as ascian tounge

[gaunt star]

so... Red Girl from nier automata, the sort of like, interface the machines have, is the same as the Watchers from Drakengard, given the story from Dark Apocalypse?

if that's the case I guess that can make sense, if drakengards watcher's leading into the "human world" of nier, adding magic and machinery that come from the Watchers, I can see the Watchers being a key plot point in nier

[teal geyser]

I'm not sure but for the sake of Ascian tongue not being written out I'm going to say yes

[gaunt star]

the red girl is the machine networks ego

[mighty light]

Didn't Drakengard's world leaking into ours kind of cause NieR's world to happen in the first place

[gaunt star]

right, that part is very important, yeah

yeah pretty much, the red eye disease and the concept of magic is what led to nier's whole shenanigans

[vital topaz]

Or, Lahabrea has just been chilling in Pandaemonium with Emperor Mateus, watching as the WoL fucks his plans up throughout SB and ShB and utterly ruin them. Actually, would Lahabrea and Emperor Mateus get along very well?

[gaunt star]

im pretty sure of that at least. i only really know what i deep dived in relation to automata, and everything up to like, act 2 of replicant

[teal geyser]

I mean Nier's world is "our world" but yes

[mighty light]

Ye; sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise

[teal geyser]

Just making sure

[viscid monolith]

What's this about Nier's world

[teal geyser]

You're correct

[severe brook]

Drakengard and Nier are in a time loop. I guess Dark Apocalypse is implying that the time loop goes even further, with the Machines giving rise to the Watchers themselves?

Which...sure, I guess. Why not.

[gaunt star]

that's... interesting. i mean, isn't a character from drakengard 3 a distant, distant direct relative of a drakengard 1 character?

[vital topaz]

Damn, so Emet Selch couldnt have been a playable character in NT

Shame.

[forest magnet]

ded game

[severe brook]

Emet-Selch would be cool as a character in Dissidia but also a massive spoiler for a very recent game

actually, how far did they go into Ardyn's backstory in Dissidia?

[teal geyser]

Emet would be lame. There are other characters from XIV that should be in Dissidia first. Alisaie for example because FOR SOME REASON DISSIDIA HAS 0 RED MAGES WTF

[viscid monolith]

Ardyn didn't have any story in Dissidia

[teal geyser]

Unless you count Terra or some shit idk

[severe brook]

but Cal
for his neutral special
he has a gun

[kind lark]

Make a spinoff where we play as Emet

[bold condor]

Zenos is honestly a solid-ass choice for a fighting game.

[teal geyser]

....okay you are making a good case

[bold condor]

Man is basically already operating on Street Fighter villain logic.

[vital topaz]

If they do put an Ascian in a theoretical 4th Dissidia game, who would it be? Lahabrea?

[severe brook]

oh i agree, Zenos is a good choice for fighting game rep

i'm just saying that Emet could also be cool

[mighty light]

Emet as a playable character feels weird
Zenos would fit well in Street Fighter or like
Soul Calibur

[teal geyser]

I wouldn't mind Emet if it had to be an Ascian

[severe brook]

Zenos would love it in Soulcalibur
until he got bored, anyway

then he'd move to Blazblue

[mighty light]

Fuckin'
Zenos shows up looking for a new sword
Finds two

[bold condor]

My picks are Alphinaud (Sage), Alisaie (Red Mage), Gaius, and Zenos (Samurai or Reaper)

[severe brook]

and then we just lock Zenos and Azrael in a pocket dimension to fight each other forever

[viscid monolith]

Dissidia has enough mages

[bold condor]

No, Dissidia has enough swordsmen.

[severe brook]

so does smash

[vital topaz]

I feel like Zenos would be the only one to wield Soul Calibur and not get possessed by it.

[bold condor]

At least mages can get creative with it.

[mighty light]

So question
Is YoRHa in a loop (IE being reset by the machines) or not
Because I remember seeing that mentioned here, but then I went and looked up NieR's timeline and like half the responses to a few reddit posts about that were like "no, the screenplay makes it ~very clear~ it's actually just a straight line"

And before I started looking into this I wasn't even aware there was a screenplay

[teal geyser]

The only problem here is I just dunno about having both twins, you only need one. Add in...fuck idk ||Lyse /s||

[bold condor]

I think both are distinct enough from one another to warrant it.

[severe brook]

The side of the loop from Nier back to Drakengard is completed before Replicant takes place

[kind lark]

Add Zenos to smash, they love sword chars

[torpid yoke]

There's a lot of non game things that add to draken nier story

[carmine basin]

Only drakengard world is in a loop iirc ||at least based on Accord's comments in DOD3||

[severe brook]

as the android caretakers of humanity cleaned up maso and the initial flow of magic, shoved it into Tokyo's ruins, and launched it into another dimension
which is implied to be the origin of the Cathedral City from Drakengard 3, whose appearance in the middle of Spain was the divergence point from real life history

[gaunt star]

isn't accord also mentioned in nier's story too?

i thought i remember reading the name pop up in one of those loading screen lore bits

[teal geyser]

Automata
Accord ||isn't mentioned in the original Nier AFAIK. Not sure about the new version||

[mighty light]

She's not technically in Automata, but she's mentioned owning one of the weapons shops, I think?

[teal geyser]

Yeah

[gaunt star]

also oof sorry about nier talk, i know it's not ffxiv but i was shooketh seeing the convergence of the entire nier story and drakengard in a single raid, and so far yoko taro's work is a subject of obsession for me lmao

[torpid yoke]

It's a sin we don't get more accord appearances

[carmine basin]

||Accord presumably came from Nier world as the androids are studying how the world turned out into that and ended up DOD3 as a result, since that's the origin of things going into shit||

[gaunt star]

proprietor of the business or something

[mighty light]

It's basically FFXIV talk, at least for this patch.

[dim sigil]

Yes

[teal geyser]

Yes

[dim sigil]

Would you say nier is worse then kh in terms of lore

[gaunt star]

i... no, i would say kh is worse, only because i personally adore a darker story more than a disney story

[teal geyser]

Nier is less complicated but Nier has no disregard for it's plot

[mighty light]

There are no FFXIV characters in KH so I can safely judge people for talking about it here.

[torpid yoke]

No

[wind bough]

Nier story works without having to know all the extra details

[gaunt star]

not that i'd say kh lore is bad, but nier feels so purposefully built while kh just kinda, does stuff that can work

[kindred rampart]

NT would have been great if it didn't change so much from the PSP games which basically decimated the potential sales they would have got

[wind bough]

Nier lore deep-diving is just an Easter egg hunt for extra fun.

[pastel coyote]

As far as i know nier lore is "logic", i can't say the same for KH after DDD

[teal geyser]

Actually I'm the opposite, KH feels more purposefully built, Nier is literally just "haha okay timeline hop!" "haha aliens" "haha lets just go to Tokyo looooooool"

[carmine basin]

Not all complicated works has to be compared to KH

[dim sigil]

Is it also there's like a stage play for the canonical ending of automata

[carmine basin]

Yoko Taro and Nomura have totally different styles so would be a bit weird to compare them

[torpid yoke]

Was that a stage play or a novella

[wind bough]

All endings are canonical

[dim sigil]

Even the one where you eat a fish

[gaunt star]

well, i can maybe refute that, kh seems like it's built as the games come out but at least nier, from what i can tell while it started with a "haha the fantasy world isekai'd to the real world", taro totally examined that path in more detail and designed it that way

[pastel coyote]

What a shit idea to make the important bit of lore about A2 in a book

[maiden lodge]

Nier appears to be less 'this is some tight lore and the lore matters and this is an exploration of world building' and more 'the world was designed to explore different ideas and philosophies and world-building cohesion takes a backseat to this necessity.'

[carmine basin]

A2 most important lore is in the stage play

[torpid yoke]

I think that vwas a stage play

[pastel coyote]

Hmm gonna check it

[maiden lodge]

KH and Nier are both shitstorms when it comes to tight storytelling and lore but at least Nier isn't trying to.

It goes somewhere else with it, and that is defensible.

[vital topaz]

Is it a safe assumption to make that the moment Lahabrea "died" in HW, Eli woke up Emet, and then Emet immediately went to the first and started fucking around there for a while before post 4.3 kicked off

[torpid yoke]

Probably

[wind bough]

Yeah probably

[pastel coyote]

Hmmm there is this "short story long" with A2 but that's all

[maiden lodge]

He'd pretty much have to, if it were the other way around he'd have had to have made Vauthry AFTER Thancred arrived.

[carmine basin]

Look up rekka alexiel, she makes summaries for the stage plays

[wind bough]

Emet says in 4.4 that it’s because of Lahabrea’s “crowning act of idiocy” that he’s active now

[vital topaz]

Question is, how much time passed in the first between post HW and before post 4.3?

[indigo shale]

from what it sounded like in the cutscene is that emet was only awakened sometime after ghimlyt or shortly before

[dim sigil]

Dude just wanted a nap and shake off his solus persona

[teal geyser]

"an amount of time less than a year" as it always is

[gaunt star]

this bubble universe is ass

[dim sigil]

Like even as somebody who loves pointless things it is like give up trying to come up with an explanation for time Passage

[pastel coyote]

In the First Cal

[gaunt star]

https://tenor.com/view/mori-calliope-calli-looking-hololive-gif-19085922

[pastel coyote]

And i think it was 100 year

[dim sigil]

Oh the first yeah its been 100

[wind bough]

Thancred spent 5 years on the First

[vital topaz]

Oh ok. The First was already pretty fucked before Emet came there, thanks to Mitron and Loghrif, Emet just fucked with it a bit more.

[teal geyser]

oh about 95 years First time

[indigo shale]

personally i dont think emet was awakened any time before 4.0 or even before 4.2

[wind bough]

So 95 ish

[pastel coyote]

Sathona, can you explain yourself for this..... thing ?

[dim sigil]

I recalled a short story made it seem like he was just about to shut his eyes for the nap and that he was called

[teal geyser]

Makes sense since the XIV MSQ takes place all in one day

[vital topaz]

I think its also a safe assumption to make that Vauthry did not exist back when Ardbert was still doing his "MSQ" on the first

[teal geyser]

Yes Vauthry is not 100 years old lol

[dim sigil]

Emet prob didn't even exsist as a character yet

In fact I wonder how far back he was conceived as a concept sound of a fireplace

[forest magnet]

of course he did

[viscid monolith]

Vauthry's like 25

[dim sigil]

I mean like not in univerde like as they are writing the story

[vital topaz]

From what Ardbert said, when they killed Mitron and Loghrif, things didnt immediately go to shit.

[gaunt star]

?

[teal geyser]

I mean....define "immediately"

[vital topaz]

the second Mitron and Loghrif died

[teal geyser]

Because it seemed to have happened like, soon after

[mighty light]

^^^
For most of the 100-year-period after the Flood, Eulmore was a bastion against the Sin-Eaters; Vauthry's ascension was a big part of what changed that.

[pastel coyote]

This gif is disturbing to say the least

[gaunt star]

i know

[teal geyser]

Honestly I give them a month tops before they killed themselves

[dim sigil]

Didn't they go like and then after shadowkeeper they went and killed the final Ascian for them and that's when stuff went down

[teal geyser]

That's when Eden was created and the beginning of the end happened yes

[wind bough]

Yes

[pastel coyote]

"The beginning of the end" i love the sound of it

[vital topaz]

If they had just killed Mitron OR Loghrif, would the flood of light still happen?

[teal geyser]

If they just killed them without one turning into Eden seemingly no?

The First still would have been pretty skewed towards light though but just without the catalyst to end it all

[mighty light]

"I am Elidibus. So long as I remember my duty, that is enough. Aught else I would only lose again in the course of this timeless struggle...and if these memories are truly so precious, pray do not ask that I forget them twice."
Forgot about this line; this is a good line

[kind lark]

If they didn't kill Mitron it might've not happened

[dim sigil]

I think it's kind of interesting that fan Daniel also said his final knowledge days is secondhand I always thought they got it through the memory crystals so it's more like they would directly know it themselves not be secondhand information

[teal geyser]

Ye

[pastel coyote]

Believe it or not but using a "blade of light" in a world excedently tipped toward umbral could turn ugly

[gaunt star]

but elidibus lost anyway hah loser

[teal geyser]

I mean, memories of another person's life is secondhand tbh

[vital topaz]

Dayum, I just realized, The First is a death trap for Ascians. Loghrif died there Mitron died there, Emet Selch died there, and then finally Elidibus. FOUR whole ascians died on the first, yikes.

[pastel coyote]

except only 2 were whole

[teal geyser]

Is that better than the Source? Emmer, Laha, Nab, Ige, MAYBE the ones Gaius got

[gaunt star]

how many red masks did gaius have? 2-3?

[crystal arrow]

side note, do we have any guesses as to which red masks gaius killed?

[teal geyser]

I want to say 3, let me check

[indigo shale]

is travanchet dead? if we want to count him

[vital topaz]

I lowkey hope we get to see the remainder of the Ascians in EW and not just Fandaniel. It would be so lame if the game just went "Oh, yeah, Gaius killed the rest of the Ascians offscreen."

[teal geyser]

2

[gaunt star]

wasnt travanchet a low ranked ascian

[indigo shale]

hes important enough to have a name at least, instead of just being called a black mask

[gaunt star]

so basically 6 dead convocation members on the source

[teal geyser]

It's unknown

[gaunt star]

fair enough, keep him dead.

[teal geyser]

They brought him back for Alex

[vital topaz]

We dont know if Gaius actually killed those Ascians though, that hasnt been explained yet.

[crystal arrow]

we have 5 red masks unnaccounted for: pashtarot, emmerloth, altima, halmarut, and deudalaphon

[wet crown]

Funny. The Replicant remake throws some story curveballs into the third raid

[gaunt star]

fuck

[teal geyser]

4.5, Emmer maybe

[clever flume]

he gave mide the horn

[indigo shale]

well thats only flashbacks though

he never reappeared,

[teal geyser]

Still makes him not dead in terms of writing

[gaunt star]

i know, i only asked how many red masks he carried, nowhere did i say how many red masks he killed

[teal geyser]

He reappeared in the plot

[vital topaz]

How would you feel if the game just went "OOPS, Gaius killed the 5 red masks offscreen, FUCK YOU!"

[crystal arrow]

yeah, but tbh until we hear from another ascian that he's dead imma assume he's still around

[teal geyser]

Is a good idea

[gaunt star]

ill kill that bish ass myself then

[indigo shale]

well we can assume hes dead till he reappears in person properly and not a flashback

[teal geyser]

Someone ask Koji Fox about this in fanfest

[crystal arrow]

shrug tbh? also as far as we know gaius just kills their forms, doesn't obliterate them like we do so they're not really dead

[gaunt star]

tbh perma killed or not i personally dont care

[vital topaz]

I want to fight more than just Fandaniel in EW, I want to fight the others, too

[crystal arrow]

frankly i'm kinda tired of ascians, i don't want to fight all 5 in the last expac

[gaunt star]

same

and since the unsundered are dead no more annoying ascians coming back

[indigo shale]

its possible the others could just be stranded on other shards so we might not see them, as im sure the sundered cant travel to other shards

[crystal arrow]

and we're getting another ascian themed raid too like

[vital topaz]

Last Expac of this Arc, mind you.

[opaque hemlock]

I have Ascian fatugue too but that's also why I look forward to Endwalker. I want to see how the whole ordeal with them ends and how we'll move on

[indigo shale]

well they said end of hydaelyn and zodiark arc, not quite end of ascians arc but they could go hand in hand so who knows

[gaunt star]

the arc of Hydaelyn vs Zodiark, doesnt mean ascians wont appear again whatsoever

also the ascians are part of the arc not their own arc

i just dont see them being threatening outside fandaniel and the unsundered

[crystal arrow]

My statement still stands. I think it'd be pretty shit narratively to have all the ascians die in a single patch.

And besides, loghrif and mitron are still around, so it's not like they're dropping the ascians entirely.

[gaunt star]

mitron is dead

[crystal arrow]

Yes but not really

[torpid yoke]

I swear moose asked and got an answer.

[vital topaz]

Kind of like Xehanort after KH3, he still appears afterwards

[opaque hemlock]

though we for sure will be dealing with some sort of Ascian problem well into 6.4 or so

[gaunt star]

whats yes but no really

[crystal arrow]

No, 6.1 starts the new arc

[opaque hemlock]

with whatever Lahabrea's deal is

[indigo shale]

hes in the lifestream right?, so mitron will just be reincarnated, but not uplifted with his memories or powers

[opaque hemlock]

I am talking about the raids

[torpid yoke]

Time to look through the lore forums again

[gaunt star]

hes dead so he will reincarnate like loghrif reincarnated

okay, that does it, apparently sinoalice is canon to nier, drakengard, and by extension, whatever shenanigans dark apocalypse is up to

and nobody can bring him back since those that could are dead

[opaque hemlock]

still will have an Ascian relevance

[gaunt star]

now i have a reason to play a mobile game

[crystal arrow]

not true, loghrif exists

[forest magnet]

this opens the window for an Emet Selch reincarnation plot btw

[gaunt star]

ofc its writen by yoko taro

[mighty light]

... It's so boring, though
And, like
One of the most unintuitive mobile games I've ever played

[gaunt star]

i only play it for the lore and stuff

[crystal arrow]

nah his soul got obliterated he's not coming back

[indigo shale]

well as far as we know only unsundered can bring back the sundered, and loghrif/gaia is sundered though whatever the fuck mitron did, was odd i guess, idk

[gaunt star]

i mean y e a h it's yoko taro but i didnt't know the extent that man goes for his stories. and that sucks that it's boring, it looks really pretty and also keiichi okabe is amazing so im happy enough with that

[forest magnet]

logrif got smacked with a blade of light and came back so

[gaunt star]

loghrif died

she reincarnated and thats it

[forest magnet]

Like Emet Selch was able to postpone his death long enough to set up everything in 5.3.

[gaunt star]

she did get her memories back so u can say she lives now but its done

[forest magnet]

So it's clear his soul wasn't "obliterated"

[gaunt star]

also no other ascians can be brought back now anyway so those that are already killed will never return

[crystal arrow]

literally not true, loghrif came back and mitron awakened her

[gaunt star]

[forest magnet]

we could futz around with the Crystal Tower to have it spit out Elidibus again

[teal geyser]

And lost again

[gaunt star]

all i know is Loghrif reincarnated, he turned into Eden, he influenced her as she was growing up a normal life if thats what u wanna call the first, and restored her memories

[dim sigil]

Couldn't only unsunderd do that

[gaunt star]

and then he died cause he got friendzoned for ryne

[forest magnet]

right so what's to say that can't happen for Emet Selch

[gaunt star]

she did?

[clever flume]

he'd reincarnate but that's not necessarily to say he'd be similar/same as before

[mighty light]

She was never fully 'awakened'
In the sense that she was not returned to being Loghrif

[teal geyser]

Well yeah...her final conversation with Mitron was literally forgetting his name right at the end after he disappears and was like "Who? What?"

[gaunt star]

dang

[clever flume]

like gaia was manipulated by mitron. unless another ascian does the same to the newly reincarnated emet selch, we're probably not going to see him in a similar fashion

[wind bough]

Loghrif didn’t come back to life. A new Loghrif inherited that soul shard, which is how literally all humans get their souls in FFXIV.

[gaunt star]

[teal geyser]

Dw according to everyone we are just who we used to be in another life

[gaunt star]

so cali is an awful monarch in this life too?

[wind bough]

Gaia is a different person who has memories of a previous incarnation implanted/recalled in them by Mitron‘s intervention.

[forest magnet]

this is almost true lmao

[teal geyser]

I'm queen bitch yes

[gaunt star]

queen

[forest magnet]

yaas queen

[torpid yoke]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/432495-Which-Ascians-are-left-(Spoilers-up-to-5.4-obviously)?p=5501344&highlight=travanchet#post5501344

Post 14

[forest magnet]

yo dawg i have a pinned post demonstrating what ascians are le--oh.

[wind bough]

Seto: Of course, you are you, and no one else. We are defined not by the soul we are born with, but the path we walk.

[teal geyser]

Neat

[teal geyser]

queue my take on the narrative stance the game takes on this again

[torpid yoke]

I would post a screen shot but idk if I'd get in twubl

[kind lark]

Isn't it weird that people owned amaros?

[forest magnet]

it took until 5.4 for the game to actually back that statement up

[teal geyser]

Obviously not but dw it's easy to see

[gaunt star]

so travashit is a black mask

[clever flume]

why so?

[teal geyser]

Is it weird people own chocobos?

[forest magnet]

people owned people, so that's not too far out of the question...

[forest magnet]

or it was lahabrea

[kind lark]

Well because some amaros were inteligent so its like owning a inteligent being

[gaunt star]

laheebread*

[teal geyser]

I mean, give your chocobo 100 years and I'll become an auspice

[torpid yoke]

Black mask

[wind bough]

Travanchet was the name taken by an Ascian possessing an Elezen man. It’s an Elezen name.

[clever flume]

keep in mind, that amaros were also created

[teal geyser]

well...enhanced

[gaunt star]

we already established that but we have no other way to refer to him

[clever flume]

. Originally created by the mages of ancient Ronka, who selectively bred the flightless cama, present-day beasts carry the seed of their ancestors, which may manifest in the form of superior intellect.

[wind bough]

We don’t know who was possessing him, but “Travanchet” is not the Ascian’s actual name.

[teal geyser]

"horn man"

[gaunt star]

....

[forest magnet]

Most random ascian mooks can barely control a lvl 15 golem. Much less a horn that can summon a time god.

[teal geyser]

I rescind my comment

[wind bough]

So we shouldn’t be looking for a “Travanchet” on the Convocation.

[teal geyser]

Also fuck me Kael you got all the quotes on hand today

[forest magnet]

It's like Emet Selch taking the name of Solus

You can't find "Solus" on the convocation

[clever flume]

🤷‍♀️ i have no life

[brazen stag]

Travis kinda had some Nabby vibes.

[teal geyser]

Nabby freaks me out man ugh god what he does to Minfilia....

[mighty light]

Maybe Travanchet was Fandaniel

[gaunt star]

listen i said WE ALREADY ESTABLISHED THATS NOT HIS REAL NAME BUT WE HAVE NO OTHER WAY TO REFER TO HIM

[indigo shale]

nabriales had a very interesting voice

[torpid yoke]

I'm not going against you just adding to it XD

[gaunt star]

ure annoying

[clever flume]

sath be nice bap

[torpid yoke]

This is literally the first time I've talked to you XD

[crystal arrow]

o.O

[gaunt star]

well that was an awful first impression

[wind bough]

[gaunt star]

never

[torpid yoke]

Sorry

[clever flume]

[teal geyser]

Your mom was annoying last night

[clever flume]

don't make me bully you, sath. i'll do it

[gaunt star]

really? thats what urs said about u this morning

[wind bough]

[crystal arrow]

i'm not sure the hostility is really needed, sath

[teal geyser]

wow, Kael, Sath bullying me right now see?

[clever flume]

that's ok, its you cal

[teal geyser]

....

[gaunt star]

thanks kael

[clever flume]

[teal geyser]

Worst mentor

[brazen stag]

I think a black mask could still accomplish a lot of awful things, just their durability is significantly weaker than even a sundered overlord. Also weren't Ascian Primes like a regular type of enemy during the server shutdown? Would make sense if they were weaker ones made from amalgamating some black masks, maybe even mixing crews.

[indigo shale]

instead of being hostile against each other, lets just bully Nabriales for his voice as its very annoying

[crystal arrow]

nah nah, let's talk about how annoying it is that they don't voice raid or trial bosses

[kind lark]

Lets bully Valens...... oh wait

[wind bough]

Ascian reapers weren’t sighted during the end of 1.0 as far as I know

[brazen stag]

[gaunt star]

anyway the convocation isnt like: Eliditardus, Laheebread, Emet Selch, Iggy, Pashtarot, Loghrif, Memetron, Altima, Nab, Danny,Deuda,Halma,emmer and azem?

[torpid yoke]

They voice trial bosses

[wind bough]

Bunch of voidsent were though

[teal geyser]

I believe you got them all yeah

[crystal arrow]

not any of the weapons

[gaunt star]

so travashit is just a turd in black mask

[teal geyser]

That'd be nice

[teal geyser]

y-yes as we've established 1000 times in the last 30 mins

[gaunt star]

good

[kind lark]

I'm kinda glad, imagine oversoul. ugh

[crystal arrow]

they could do some cool shit if they voiced the raid bosses, lol - imagine what E10 could sound like

[teal geyser]

beep boop chicken tenders ready
Edit: god damn it

[gaunt star]

https://tenor.com/view/god-hand-gene-beatdown-brawl-video-games-gif-16624350

[torpid yoke]

???

[gaunt star]

was supposed to tag cali but meh

[indigo shale]

hmm speaking of voicing stuff, arent the ivalice raids the only 24 mans to have voiced lines?

[wind bough]

Just do your own funny voices for them as you fight

[gaunt star]

but ivalice stuff sucked

[wind bough]

Yep. Matsuno privilege!

[torpid yoke]

They have voice lines

[teal geyser]

Nier has some but not for bosses

[gaunt star]

what a budget for that

[vital topaz]

Does Who Brings Shadow and To The Edge foreshadow not only ShB, but EW in some of the lyrics?

[gaunt star]

its called Shadowbringers

[wind bough]

Nier PA gibberish sounds barely count

[teal geyser]

It counts, they got someone to use their voice to make up a speech

[torpid yoke]

Maybe but in the moment it's more about the respective ppl in the fights

Like to the edge is eli and WOL

[indigo shale]

RtI isnt bad, its a lot to take in, but it isnt bad, + we got bozja out of it, which imo is one of the best pieces of content in the game

[wind bough]

Foreshadow Endwalker how?

[forest magnet]

This reminds me of when people said that Fiend foreshadowed Shadowbringers

[gaunt star]

i like the bozja stuff, but i dont like the ivalice story

[teal geyser]

heh

[mighty light]

Answers over here like "I definitely foreshadowed Amaurot guys"

[torpid yoke]

No way to know till we do EW

[wind bough]

Answers is so versatile

[teal geyser]

Death be relatable like that

[torpid yoke]

Oh.....no

[wind bough]

Oh come on.

[forest magnet]

Answers is versatile for everything but ARR, ironically enough

[mighty light]

This is about the Final Days in Amaurot.

[gaunt star]

what if final days are inevitable so we start over

pray return to the sleeping sands

[torpid yoke]

Some theorize that

[kind lark]

In EndWalker, we walk and its the end of the world.

[gaunt star]

it wont happen, im just memeing tbh

[teal geyser]

omg dragonsong is about Fandaniel!?!?!?!?

[torpid yoke]

The end of days is naturally occurring and

[gaunt star]

well its not a natural occurence in xiv xd

[vital topaz]

What is this, some Dark Souls First Flame type shit?

[teal geyser]

You sure about that? Happens way too much to be unnatural

[torpid yoke]

I mean how do you know for a fact

[gaunt star]

its just the power of yoko taro tbh

[brazen stag]

[gaunt star]

to be fair this is me when i wake up every morning

[vital topaz]

Yeah, for all we know, The Final Days could be caused by an extra dimensional primal who emmited the sound, causing everyone's creation magic to go crazy, though if they did that, it would kind of feel like Necron.

[kind lark]

Fandaniel is frampt

[vital topaz]

Wait, would it?

[gaunt star]

you forgot the part he wants to take everything with him

[gaunt star]

well played

[forest magnet]

i was sinking in my seat during that moment thinking to myself "man this does not bode well for whatever 6.0 will be"

[brazen stag]

[torpid yoke]

How so

[oak pike]

FUCK

[gaunt star]

people got annoyed with fandaniel like why is it so bad to have a not so deep villain?

[brazen stag]

I see Fun Daniel as kinda the resulting child of the funny odd-couple thing Kuja and Kefka had going on during Dissidia.

[vital topaz]

I wonder if we're going to deal with whatever caused the sound in EW, or if that'll be saved for the 7.0-??? Arc (I personally think that the next arc will be 7.0-12.0 because Hyd Zod arc was 5 expacs long, if you count ARR as an expansion)

[torpid yoke]

Ppl are dumb

[bold condor]

Which moment?

[forest magnet]

Usually the X.4 patch does a good job setting up the next expansion.
And it's not as much as Fandaniel is not a simple villain, but that he's not compelling, imo.

[torpid yoke]

Real answer they are used to sympathetic villains

[forest magnet]

For a counterpoint I was really invested in what would happen to Valens. And he's about as simple as they come and go.

[vital topaz]

Do you count ARR as an expansion if you're a legacy player?

[gaunt star]

valens was pathetic but it made his death more satisfying for me

[indigo shale]

well there is no reason for them to do 4 expac long arcs every time, i think they may just limit it to 1/2 expacs being an arc rather than making everything a 8 year long story

[forest magnet]

It's a matter of semantics

[bold condor]

No it doesn't.

Thordan shows up literally once flanked by Ascians, which is 100% not a good impression of his personality.

[torpid yoke]

Yea but valems is side story and gets the accelerated story shit

[brazen stag]

I don't think it's a bad bet for me to believe right now that by the end of N'd Wanker I'll feel pity and sadness for Fandaniel at the very least.

[bold condor]

Zenos only has one line of dialogue in 3.56 and it doesn't tell you anything about who he is.

[gaunt star]

zenos one line 'besto friendo'

[bold condor]

And Emet-Selch seems to be Fandaniel in 4.4, which he is not.

[gaunt star]

also i dont remember but the first fanfest for shb was before or after 4.4?

[forest magnet]

idk, did Emet Selch blabble on about Amaurot in 4.4?

[bold condor]

No.

[gaunt star]

or announcement w/e

[vital topaz]

Emet Selch's entire existence in 4.4/4.5 was to be the biggest fucking troll to Varis I have ever seen, and it worked.

[bold condor]

Not directly, but what are you trying to say?

[brazen stag]

When I first saw Solus I was like "get a loada this dollar store Kefka!" to my friend who was running me through the game.
Then by the end of Shadowbringers I was like "I apologize." to them.

[bold condor]

That Fandaniel using elements of the plot already revealed is a bad thing?

Fandaniel is tied to the Final Days reveal from 5.0 the way Emet-Selch is tied to the Garlemald working with Ascians reveal from 4.0.

[forest magnet]

Not really but the writers might have written themselves into a corner revealing his "apparant" motiviation and torching us with a boss we kill in the next patch

[bold condor]

Thing about primals

You can summon then multiple times. That's literally been one of the two main traits that make them difficult to deal with.

[wind bough]

The story for the expansion is basically planned out two years in advance.

[forest magnet]

See the thing with Emet Selch's threat with rejoining and the Black Rose is that it would kill us. Fandaniel shows up with his toy and we kill it next patch.

[vital topaz]

They havent revealed anything about Fandaniel besides the fact that he wants to kill everyone, he still has big cards to play.

[bold condor]

A threat we learn about in 5.0, not 4.x.

And Emet-Selch reveals internally that he's the Emperor in 4.4, and that's revealed to the characters next patch.

[wind bough]

Lunar Bahamut merely serves to introduce a new concept which will doubtless build to something greater

[vital topaz]

Didnt Yoshi P say in the EW pres that Fandaniel had an earth shattering secret or something?

[bold condor]

This is literally how they always write this. The stinger at the end of the patch is literally ALWAYS given more information the following patch.

[forest magnet]

No he didn't he actually said he wasn't even the final boss

[bold condor]

2.1 ends with us meeting Elidibus, 2.2 has him give a Sahagin the Echo.

[maiden lodge]

He did mention Fandaniel has a secret.

[vital topaz]

SEE! EAT IT KIDDO

[bold condor]

2.2 has us see Teledji plotting "revolution," 2.3 gives us a full skivvy from Raubahn and Nanamo on how/why he's a villain.

[maiden lodge]

And yeah, he also said Fanny's not teh final boss

[wind bough]

Steady on, Knight.

[bold condor]

2.3 has us glimpse Iceheart, 2.4 reveals who Iceheart is and what her motivations are.

[gaunt star]

he actually does, and that doesnt mean hes the final boss or anything either.

[torpid yoke]

I still think he'll be the final boss

[gaunt star]

he wont be

[forest magnet]

i heard it the first time

[gaunt star]

but that doesnt stop him from having secrets

[bold condor]

Also not being the final boss doesn't make him unimportant.

[gaunt star]

yeah basically

[bold condor]

Vauthry was the second most important villain in Shadowbringers.

[forest magnet]

Mm. There's also how the character is framed. They chose Asahi because the players have a reaction to his body. Like the whole point with Fandaniel is that he's not sympathetic.

[torpid yoke]

Wasn't aware sath sees the future

[vital topaz]

What? Its not like its Dis and Gabriel arguing or anything.

[bold condor]

I'm aware. What I don't understand is why sympathetic = good and unsympathetic = bad.

[forest magnet]

I provided a Valens counter-point but I'm not sold on Fandaniel yet (or Zenos)

[gaunt star]

people are used to relateable villains too much

[wind bough]

you don’t need to yell mockingly at people in all caps

[bold condor]

fwiw people overstate how sympathetic the literal architect of authoritarianism and genocide is. Emet-Selch is sympathetic because you understand his convictions, not because you're supposed to agree with them.

[maiden lodge]

Thank you!

[gaunt star]

also Valens ambition given the state of garlemald was pathetic xd

[maiden lodge]

I thought Valens was great

It was cathartic to watch his downfall.

[turbid helm]

If every villain was sympathetic wouldn't that just become predictable and stale

[forest magnet]

do you have an example of this

[bold condor]

And Elidibus is not only not making any attempt to be understood, he literally blames you for conflicts he caused.

[gaunt star]

that sound when he got crashed tho

[maiden lodge]

Catharsis is the goal, and sympathy is but one means to that end.

[bold condor]

I don't get how you're meant to have examples of this.

[forest magnet]

Which is why I find that whole instanced battle part of 5.3 off-putting.

[bold condor]

Well, that's your take. I found his arc well-done and true to who he's been.

[turbid helm]

It's a question and you're asking for evidence

[bold condor]

While also explaining aspects of his character we've seen up to now.

[indigo shale]

yes, and thats my fear with ishikawa writing zenos and fandaniel, we saw what happened with the ascians so i feel it will happen with zenos and fandaniel, where they will be made to have players feel bad for them - wrong reply, sorry

[bold condor]

But seriously how are you supposed to have "an example" of that? That people sometimes also enjoy straightforward villains?

[forest magnet]

I was asking for an example where a lot of sympathetic villains was ultimately detrimental to the story and made it stale

[bold condor]

Oh, you mean like ones who try for sympathy and fail to reach the audience because they're literally awful? Xehanort.

[wind bough]

Thanos in Avengers

[forest magnet]

/r/thanosdidnothingwrong begs to differ but ok

[bold condor]

Yes, Xuan, someone somewhere will like any villain.

[gaunt star]

thanos was a mistake

[wind bough]

Dumb people exist in the world

[bold condor]

I might as well use "I like Zenos" as evidence against your point by that logic.

[crystal arrow]

can we count uhh, that super powerful demon from demon slayer, whatever his name is

[gaunt star]

even death herself and his mom swiped left when they saw him

[bold condor]

I mean, any of the villains in Dragon Ball Z.

I think people would actually stop liking Frieza if they made him sympathetic.

[drowsy belfry]

Oh god that would suck

[gaunt star]

people like him more with his development in super xd

[bold condor]

Piccolo is the most sympathetic, but he's a reincarnation and didn't do much bad when he was a villain.

[gaunt star]

tho thats mostly cause he isnt as arrogant as he was in Z

[bold condor]

He blew up an arena with no casualties and kidnapped a child he eventually gave his actual life to save despite it being disadvantageous.

[crystal arrow]

"yeah this super powerful demon who created all the other demons literally genociding humans has a family and isn't all that bad, actually"

[forest magnet]

I didn't assert that simple villains were bad for the story

you only need to look as far as Thordan for that.

[torpid yoke]

Classic mithos

[bold condor]

Thordan has sympathetic motives, though, or at least as sympathetic as Emet-Selch.

He just isn't made to whine about them as often.

[forest magnet]

what do you mean by that

[wind bough]

Thordan wants stability and safety for Ishgard

[bold condor]

I mean that the writing treats Emet-Selch like he is the most tragic and lonely person ever.

When he is directly responsible for the plight of countless people, several of whom are ALSO villains and treated LESS sympathetically than him.

[torpid yoke]

Zenos is a great character

[bold condor]

Ilberd is framed as a shitty garbage traitor man in the story and that's all the story WANTS you to think of him as.

But when you stop and think about it, Ilberd's entire motivation requires Emet-Selch to fucking destroy his home and family.

[forest magnet]

I do agree that logically speaking Zenos is the ultimate culmination of both the Empire and the Ascians, but that doesn't make me like him as much as I would want it to.

[bold condor]

On two separate, non-consecutive occasions, no less.

He not only invaded Ala Mhigo, he was the architect of the Meteor Project that killed Ilberd's family in the Calamity.

[gaunt star]

Zenos is:

• Cool to watch do things
• Fun to fight
• One of the best voice-acted characters in the game (In English)
• Is just a cool dude
• Is an allegory for suicidally destructive depression
• Is also just the player

I've ran the numbers and by all accounts Zenos is a good character

[bold condor]

And that's not even getting into how he is personally responsible for the suffering of

EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON we meet on the First.

He was the one who gave Loghrif and Mitron their orders, and then he created Vauthry on top of that some 80 years (from the First's perspective) later.

[forest magnet]

again this goes back to the character framing i pointed out earlier

[bold condor]

Okay, no, stop.

[turbid helm]

Dude didn't even bother looking for Loghrif or Mitron once they disappeared either.

[bold condor]

Don't shift the goalpost, the reason I brought this part of the topic up was in response to you asking how Thordan is also sympathetic.

If we want to get into framing, I'd say it's also valid to frame villains in a villainous way, and honestly the framing of Emet-Selch is kind of dishonest despite it being satisfying.

Whereas Fandaniel and Zenos's framing is seemingly honest and straightforward, and that means their effectiveness in 6.0 will rest on their actions not the story telling us to feel bad because of their backstories.

[tight marlin]

@bold condor unironically as someone who likes dragon ball, frieza staying evil is what made him so good in super. You have such a dangerous wild card that who knows if he would turn traitor for his own selfishness

[bold condor]

yee

[tight marlin]

which is why I sometimes like the unrepentantly evil characters if done well. Theres only so much "I understand my bad guy and feel for them" u can do

[bold condor]

It's ultimately personal taste but I honestly kind of agree.

[mighty light]

And people have a tendency to conflate "I feel bad for them" with "they're good, actually"

[bold condor]

Especially because I personally feel FFXIV has a bad habit of just... being REALLY explicit about when it wants you to give a fuck and when it doesn't.

[forest magnet]

ngl I got a weird thought about how Elidibus mirrors the player who skips story

[bold condor]

Granted, part of that is noticeably that Ishikawa always gives a fuck.

[tight marlin]

Emet and Elidibus in ShB had the backup of being characters that havent had the "feel bad for them" trope done well until...well ShB

[bold condor]

So when she writes these characters, their framing is noticeably different because she's writing them.

[tight marlin]

The likes of Yotsuyu and Fordola were more "victims gone bad" which is it's own can of worms but isnt necessarily the same boat

[bold condor]

tbf to the writing there

Fordola is treated sympathetically, she just looks like she's treated harsher because Gaius managed to get off scot-free.

And Yotsuyu kind of chose evil.

The tragedy of her character being that she felt trapped by her past and unable to change.

[torpid yoke]

Rest her soul

[tight marlin]

Gaius's punishment is having dead children

[bold condor]

Basically, yeah, Manpain van Baelsar.

[torpid yoke]

Gaius punishment is his children dying because of his old mantra

[forest magnet]

The writing seems to be that villains receive 'justice' based on what their current intent is, not as much of what they did in the past

[bold condor]

More or less, yes.

[tight marlin]

Yotsuyu: OH GOD I REMEMBER EVERYTHING! AND I ACTUALLY FEEL KINDA BAD I CHOOSE DEATH

parents
Yotsuyu: oh sorry I didn't see the choose evil and become tsukuyomi option

[indigo shale]

idk why it was decided to go for the "feel bad for them" approach for the ascians, they had done so much evil shit that i feel its impossible to feel bad for them in any respect as what they have done since the sundering far outweighs any sort of redemption/sympathy/empathy

[bold condor]

I disagree with this.

[tight marlin]

Because they never elaborated on the why

Emet even says it himself more or less
They never tried to understand each others views

[bold condor]

As harsh as I am on the Ascians' actual actions, I think the story for them was told well. My gripe is I don't think it's the only way to tell a story and that other characters weren't given the same kind of treatment in the past where they could've had it.

[tight marlin]

And perhaps through this understanding maybe SOMETHING profitable on both sides could happen

[bold condor]

I am wondering what Ishikawa will hit on when it comes to Zenos's character.

[tight marlin]

Of course in the end they could never come to an agreement beyond understanding the plight of the ascians

[mighty light]

If you lose the ability to empathize with even the most awful monsters, like
Fair enough, but you're not going to be useful fighting against them.

[bold condor]

She does loneliness really well and prior to Stormblood, Zenos was seemingly the loneliest fucker in Garlemald.

Then he met us. I've mentioned this before but we ironically liberated Zenos from imperial control the same way we did Ala Mhigo and Doma.

[indigo shale]

eh, doesnt matter how well its told, which i agree its told well, but i dont think they deserve the "feel bad for them" approach due to their actions, or at least it shouldnt have been leaned on in as heavily as it was

[bold condor]

Dude was miserable just doing what his daddy told him to do.

[tight marlin]

It's a bit messed up but in zenos's head
A friend is someone who is there for you and helps you out and even brings joy to you
WoL has fought Zenos 4 times alone
WoL brought the only joy Zenos ever knew

They "share" the same interests that is glorious battle

[bold condor]

Honestly, I can see why he arrived at that conclusion considering he's been taught to respect strength above all else in a society that elevates itself through conquest.

[mighty light]

It wasn't leaned on
At no point do any major characters even contemplate, as far as I'm aware, even the possibility that they might be in the right. You're just made to understand that they aren't inhuman monsters beyond our understanding.

Which, IMO, is important.

[tight marlin]

Ye
If garlemald's standards are the strongest is the greatest
Zenos is garlemald's strongest
And he met someone better and gave Zenos the only happiness he knew

[torpid yoke]

Add him naturally being good at everything and boom

[tight marlin]

Zenos's suicide was a matter of "I will never achieve that happiness ever again. So let's go out on a high note"

[bold condor]

I've also mentioned before he kind of epitomizes the Garlean ethic. Selfishly taking what he wants because he wants it, valuing strength and power above all else, no true loyalty to anyone least of all his people, unconcerned with human life beyond being a tool he can use, willing to go to any lengths to accomplish his goal.

Same kind of ethic that excused the Meteor Project.

"I want to take over Eorzea before I die, so let's drop a moon on the continent and kill everyone there so we can conquer what's left."

[dim sigil]

Wasn't the metor project actually was because of tempering

[bold condor]

Not at first and even knowing Emet-Selch was an Ascian, the armies of Garlemald generally supported Meteor.

[mighty light]

Nael was tempered, but Nael wasn't the only one responsible for bringing it about.

[vital topaz]

Man, if Elidibus and Emet Selch were just servants of Zodiark, I dont even want to think about what the fully powered Zodiark is capable of....

[torpid yoke]

Smug got moidered

[bold condor]

To the point that even Nael's legion continued to fight to make sure it happened after Nael died.

[dim sigil]

It's capable of a level 90 trial that is going to be Slaughter because it's story mode

[bold condor]

The high legatus who said "yes, this seems like a good idea" to Meteor is the same man who sired Zenos.

[vital topaz]

Didnt Lahabrea imply in the Praetorium that Zodiark was basically capable of casting Ultima whenever He wanted?

[mighty light]

Clutch "Varis is as bad as Emet, if not worse" gamer moment

[bold condor]

kek

[next quarry]

i forgot about ultima tbh

[vital topaz]

Zodiark (EX) is going to be fucking insane, I bet.

[bold condor]

Varis was, from beginning to end, a short-sighted fool.

[indigo shale]

well im talking more from myself as a player perspective rather than ingame characters, i feel they leant so much on making players have some empathy/sympathy for the ascians though they dont deserve that due to their actions,

[mighty light]

Empathy is not a thing you do because people do or don't deserve it; it's a thing you do to understand people.

[echo orbit]

ha! you will be punish by someone else dying! mcuh punishment, very bad

[vital topaz]

Varis: "Alright, Regula, YOU are in charge of securing the Singularity Reactor so we can use it for the glory of the empire! Leaving you alone with your men surely wont backfire at all, nope! Now, I'm going back to Garlemald to....do things and not be a good father to my son!"

[indigo shale]

i just dont like how they tried to make the ascians sad pretty much, i didnt see the point in it

[torpid yoke]

Watching those who are close to you deeply (like adopted children) die because of actions you caused is a huge punishment dude

[vital topaz]

TLDR: People bitched and complained that the Ascians were too cartoony, so they gave em what they wanted, blame yourself and the community for that, probably

[heady shadow]

I like they were able to give Gaius a good redemption

[indigo shale]

i only started playing the game in late september of 2020 , so i had no influence on shit anyway

[mighty light]

Primarily for the people dying

[vital topaz]

Oh ok, then just blame the community for complaining that "ThE AsCiAnS aRe ToO CaRtOoNiShLy EiVl, mAkE ThEm hAvE hUmAn AsPeCtS!!!!!!!!!1!" I personally love what ShB did with Ascians but you do you dude.

[mighty light]

Knight
Are you okay

[torpid yoke]

Primarily for the parent in my example

[vital topaz]

Yes, people use that shitposty typing style all the time

[mighty light]

I think the people dying might be suffering slightly more than their adoptive parent

Find "people you love are dying to allow you to achieveve requisite amount of suffering needed to Atone(TM)" deeply unsatisfying as a plot element, esp. since these children seem to have been introduced specifically to suffer for the sake of redeeming him.

[kind lark]

A quick shoutout to Soken, love you big man.

[mighty light]

It does nothing to address what he actually did and turns their suffering into something centered on him. Which, IMO, sucks.

[indigo shale]

and you can love what ShB did im not saying you cant, i just dont like where they went with the ascians, but hey we got SoS out of it so i cant say its all bad tbh

[still talon]

The entire idea of Shadowbringers is to get people to understand that you can empathize, sympathize, and even like someone...and yet still understand that what they are doing is something you must fight against.

That's why Elidibus is coded as a "hero"—in his mind he is a hero, and he's trying to save his people and the world he knew. You understand that and yet oppose him anyway because you have no choice.

[mighty light]

You do have a choice; it's just that the choice is to allow him to murder millions of people. Because outside of his mind, he's a monster.

[still talon]

That's why the Japanese name is something like "jet black villains"—you'll be the "villain" if you must in order to protect your world.

[mighty light]

That's what I was getting at above. The important thing to understand, and which ShB wants you to understand, is that you can empathize with monsters w/o them ceasing to be monsters.

[echo orbit]

what's the diff between the ascians are doing and ala mhigo independence except for scale?

[heady shadow]

its a shame.
if elidibus got his memories back would he still fight us?

[echo orbit]

oh i saw that, cash me outside

[wind bough]

Ala Mhigo isn’t attempting to do anything similar to what the Ascians are though? That’s a false equivalency of the highest order

[echo orbit]

stuck and trying to restore a past nation after losing, excepting the scale of the nation/lost

[mighty light]

Ala Mhigo isn’t attempting to do anything similar to what the Ascians are though? That’s a false equivalency of the highest order
^^^

For the record, I deleted that because I regretted saying it, not because I didn't want you to see it. Had a viscerally negative reaction to "freeing yourself from subjugation by people who are instating forced labour camps and testing chemical weapons on your people is the same as committing genocide on a planetary scale."

[echo orbit]

yeah well hydaelyn did it first

killed like everybody and everything in the entire world man

[still talon]

I don't think it's that straightforward. The lesson of both Hades and Elidibus is that they'd choose their countrymen, friends, families and lovers over a world of alien strangers. We make that decision every day, by ignoring suffering in people a world away that we wouldn't in our friends and families.

[wind bough]

Ala Mhigo are attempting to free themselves from a despotic foreign rule.

[echo orbit]

even worse than killed, split them apart and made them unwhole at their very soul

[wind bough]

Ascians are attempting to destroy others to bring back something gone.

[still talon]

Ala Mhigo were just as bad, if not worse. There's a reason the Gridanians would not let them in.

[wind bough]

Ala Mhigans are not trying to enact regressive change to the old ways.

[mighty light]

I don't actively plot to murder millions for the sake of my family and neighbours; that's a really weird comparison to make.

[echo orbit]

ah so garlemald shoulda gone more complete and killed all the ala mhigan then

[deft burrow]

And his people were willing to care about others around the world, hence half willing to sacrifice themselves for the other half. @still talon

[echo orbit]

then any descendant wouldn't have a standing to try and restore ala mhigo, got it

[wind bough]

No they weren’t. One king over a century ago waged a war of expansion against Gridania.

[deft burrow]

Unlike the current inhabitants of the source

[wind bough]

The elementals are bs.

[mighty light]

Until it got to the third round of sacrifices, in which they were willing to sacrifice all the new intelligent life on the planet, without their consent, to bring the people who sacrificed themselves in previous rounds back to life.

[wind bough]

The events of Shadowbringers give the lie to this comparison. The people of the First band together. We see more and more of the same from those in the Source also.

[still talon]

You also wouldn't sacrifice yourself for them, either. Remember: the Amourotine did something you'd never, ever do.

[mighty light]

Speak for yourself.

[wind bough]

.

[deft burrow]

Before we got there the 1st was completely divided... @wind bough

[mighty light]

Yes, by the actions of the Ascians.

[dusk drift]

🤔

[wind bough]

Not really. The Crystarium was already all about that kind of ethos.

Eulmore was literally brainwashed by Ascian machinations.

[mighty light]

Eulmore was fighting against the Sin-Eaters before Emet-Selch got involved.

[clever flume]

Eulmores change in attitude was recent

[kindred rampart]

https://twitter.com/Q6Q6TIKIN/status/1384103565388517382

ふしゅ・表垢 (@Q6Q6TIKIN)

少年成長期

Retweets

1006

Likes

3013

Twitter · Apr 19, 2021, 11:16 AM

[still talon]

Yeah it's telling that without the interventions of the Fourteenth Seat all of these nations would be long destroyed ten times over. Azem is the only reason Eorzea still exists.

[clever flume]

Like 50yrs maybe give or take depending on how old ranjit is

[mighty light]

Also, for what it's worth, the Amaurotines refused to get involved with fighting the Final Days up until the point where they literally had no choice. It was not something that came on them suddenly; they were receiving reports of bad shit happening in other nations for months, if not longer, before they finally did something. Azem left the Convocation over that.

[wind bough]

Virtually all conflicts in the Source are engineered by the Ascians.

[mighty light]

The WoL is explicitly not Azem, even though they are the reincarnation of them. The entire message of Eden, and that one tail-end of the MSQ quest, is that you are not the person you were in past lives.

[still talon]

We don't know why Azem left, do we? We don't even know how they felt about the Hydelyn thing

[dusk drift]

ascians: the new people of the world are irredeemable garbage who constantly give in to their worst impulses and repeat the same mistakes over and over
also ascians: play off of peoples' worst impulses, engineer entire societies to be violent and oppressive, and destroy historical records so people can't learn from the past

we've consistently seen that even in situations where ascians weren't the direct cause, they frequently get involved to make things worse

[still talon]

okay

[wind bough]

Ascians to humans: grabs their hands and makes them hit themselves Stop hitting yourself! We noble Ancients would never hit ourselves!

[deft burrow]

Again the Ascians did give the world a chance by having lived thousands of years as normal people and having families.

[wind bough]

No they didn’t.

[mighty light]

Citation needed

[dim sigil]

I'm pretty sure that was never said

[mighty light]

Because we've had calamities pretty much for as long as we've had recorded history.

[wind bough]

Emet says he did but he was ultimately too emotionally involved

[still talon]

Man lotta people here are scared of empathizing with "bad guys"

[deft burrow]

Emet saying he sired many many children and walked the same path over and over again

[clever flume]

Calamities have been happening since the sundering

[deft burrow]

It was said. Very clearly.

[pastel coyote]

Well if the ascian are able to make people doing the worse, they prove their point

[wind bough]

No one’s scared of that. Don’t come here with straw man bs.

[clever flume]

How is thar giving them a chance

[deft burrow]

Because he didn't create calamities during that period?

[still talon]

That was Hades and it was his whole big speech before opening the door

[deft burrow]

Yeah

[wind bough]

Empathising with someone isn’t the same as supporting their actions.

[mighty light]

Literally my argument about ShB was that you were supposed to learn it was okay to emphasize with them; the fact that I don't agree the Ascians were in the right, and that I don't agree fucking... Ala Mhigo is doing the same thing as the Ascians are, what?, does not suggest that I'm afraid to do the thing I said I was doing.

[dusk drift]

not really? if they're the ones causing those things to happen, it's not fair to blame them on us
if i accidentally leave my house unlocked and someone steals all my stuff, they're still a thief

[deft burrow]

You can empathize with them which is the point of Emet but at the same time not agree with their methods.

[wind bough]

Hades ultimately concedes to us.

[mighty light]

Or with their goals.

[dusk drift]

ShB themes be like:

[pastel coyote]

Bad comparison and you know it

[dusk drift]

https://tenor.com/view/brooklyn99-andy-samberg-jake-peralta-cool-motive-still-a-murder-gif-12004247

[deft burrow]

I can agree with the goal of bringing their people back because I would want the same. Problem is their methods of returning their people.

[mighty light]

The whole point of ShB is that empathy is important to understand people, and that it isn't a weakness, but that being able to empathize with someone does not make them a good person.

[pastel coyote]

If you want to make a example, make it like this: they give you the possibility to do a crime, if you do it then they are right

[mighty light]

The fact that somebody sees themself as a good person doesn't make them right.

[dusk drift]

it's really not. if someone does something wrong, it's their fault. the only thing the ascians prove when they get other people to do horrible things is that the ascians themselves are manipulative pieces of shit

[deft burrow]

Its really a play on morality. Had we been in their situation we would likely want the same. That's what they were trying to say with the story telling of Emet.

[mighty light]

I guarantee you that, barring tempering, I would not.

[deft burrow]

You have the luxury of saying that cause you don't know the pain lol

[pastel coyote]

Yeaaaaah sure

[mighty light]

I'm willing to cop to wanting a lot of bad shit. Mass genocide for the sake of reviving my dead loved ones has never been one of them.

[wind bough]

The fact that a faction of Ancients directly opposed them says otherwise.

[deft burrow]

Half of them supported it @wind bough

[brisk quail]

You just accept death? If FFXIV just poofed the next day and DQ:MMO2 popped up and was significant shittier... you'd just... live with it?

[wind bough]

Half!

That’s quite a far cry from all, don’t you think?

[deft burrow]

Damn great thing that's not a point?

Never did I say all agreed with them lmao

[still talon]

I think it's more complex than sorting out the "good guys" from the "bad guys". The Ascians were an extreme example, to get you to sympathize with the worst of the worst... but everything from the Pixies to the NieR series to Eulmore to the patch content about the beast tribes is about questioning those easy categorizations.

[wind bough]

So accordingly, to say that such a position is an inevitable consequence of their circumstances is false.

[mighty light]

I probably wouldn't murder somebody else to save myself, and, like... Yes; games I've loved have gone offline before. It would not be the first time, and it will not be the last.

[wind bough]

And to tell people they would make the same decision in their situation is presumptive and not accurate.

[deft burrow]

Never did I say it was inevitable? Like what are you trying to accomplish arguing in bad faith like you are? @wind bough

[wind bough]

.

[still talon]

Are the Pixies "good guys"? The dwarves in the Limsa quest? The tempered Kobolds?

[pastel coyote]

They that to the officer after the thing done

[deft burrow]

We would likely

[wind bough]

.

[mighty light]

What

[deft burrow]

Literally read what I'm saying, stop acting in bad faith

[wind bough]

Your intended meaning is clear, but we have evidence to the contrary.

[teal geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/on-fire-pizza-gif-6074641

[mighty light]

Hi, it's that day of the week again

[teal geyser]

Every day?

[mighty light]

Yep

[wind bough]

So please don’t tell people what they believe, and don’t throw around the words “bad faith” meaninglessly to try and deflect criticism.

[still talon]

Hell Werlyt features a lot of sympathetic former Imperials. We've killed (murderered?) thousands of Imperials.

[viscid monolith]

Wow I love seeing that gif for the 5000th time

[teal geyser]

Hey my number is in the millions

[teal geyser]

Alright fuck you too

[still talon]

Would you kill a stranger to save your children

[deft burrow]

@wind bough its entirely ignorant to say that you wouldn't do the same or not since you don't have the perspective of the other side. Stop acting in bad faith and come back when you know how to comprehend and understand what people are talking about. Stop defending ignorant statements.

[mighty light]

Depends; is the stranger actively pointing a gun at them and threatening to pull the trigger? Do I have literally any other option?

[wind bough]

The sundered are arguably the children of the Ancients in this scenario.

[mighty light]

Or is this trolley problem bullshit?

[teal geyser]

e-eh....not really?

[deft burrow]

No they aren't

[viscid monolith]

Which part are we saying is "what I would do in the same situation"?

[mighty light]

It's entirely ignorant to say that you would, given you lack experience of the other side, so what is the point of your argument

[still talon]

Werlyt was really awkward considering you're the one killing all these idealistic kids who are themselves trying to bring down the empire. But that was the point of it.

[wind bough]

I can place myself in that situation just fine, and we have examples of those that did not approve of the Convocation‘s actions so do not presume.

[viscid monolith]

Sacrificing innocents against their will to bring back my family? I certainly wouldn't do that.

[wind bough]

I’ve lost people in my life, and I wouldn’t take such actions to bring them back. What’s gone is gone. Don’t tell me what I would do.

[mighty light]

Like the fact that y'all seem so willing to believe that everyone would sacrifice other people's lives to save their family members says more about you than it does about us, I think.

[still talon]

The ancients that made Hydelyn maybe, but an Amourotine mom who lost her kids during the last days? I don't think she'd agree.

[viscid monolith]

Oh ya and which Scion said they would do the same? Oh ya Alisaie. A dumb kid and probably the most irrational Scion.

[pastel coyote]

The meaning of "innocent" can change quickly under the right circumstance you know

[deft burrow]

My point has always been arguing the moralty of the decision. I said that you can agree with their goal but disagree with their methods. I'm literally saying that neither side truly understands the other so making a definitive statement is ignorant and misses the point entirely of the story. I'm not choosing sides here but apparently you think I am despite my argument always having been talking about empathizing not meaning agreeing with methods used. @mighty light @wind bough

[mighty light]

If literally everyone you're arguing against is misunderstanding your point, regularly, that suggests you're doing a bad job of presenting it, dude.

[wind bough]

All you’ve been doing is being contrarian.

[deft burrow]

No it means you are directing a biased and argumentive viewpoint by trying to label an argument made by someone else as opposed to your view.

That is what is happening.

[wind bough]

I suggest you take a break and come back later.

[mighty light]

This isn't the first time where I've quoted what you've said directly, word for word, and you've ended up saying "no I don't actually believe this I was just stating it impartially as someone who doesn't believe it to explain the viewpoint of somebody who does believe it and you're arguing against me in bad faith."

It's getting really old.

[deft burrow]

Except this time at the start I explicitly said my point regarding a neutral statement.

[urban hedge]

That'll be enough of that, thanks

back to ffxiv

uwu

[mighty light]

Alrighty

[pastel coyote]

But we are in ffxiv dear

[urban hedge]

not to have a pissing match of who's right or wrong

[stiff charm]

i knew it! anime is real

[pastel coyote]

Given it was a exchange about the morality presented to us in the game and that morality is purely subjective, when did this thing could be right or wrong ?

[heady shadow]

uh oh gist showed up.

[deft burrow]

Literally what I said lol @pastel coyote but it doesn't matter anymore

Its better to not argue about pointless things like that

[urban hedge]

[somber storm]

Morales bad,

[brisk quail]

Too much swagger

[mighty light]

IDK, I really liked Into the Spiderverse

[heady shadow]

i was gonna see about joining the discord that has that emote gist, but lkast time i was in there I was bullied lmao

[somber storm]

Swagger walk when?

[urban hedge]

you could just join and afk

generally what I do

[deft burrow]

Same

[heady shadow]

maybe one day.
when EW's out or something

[somber storm]

An admin afking? Impossible

[urban hedge]

are we on final step of skysteel tools now

[wind bough]

We have

[deft burrow]

Yeah I think we have been since 5.45

The glowy ones i believe are the end of the quest line

[somber storm]

Tfw you are still on level 70 crafters and gatherers scrip gear

[deft burrow]

Not looking forward to leveling all the crafters to 90 and then having to pentameld again

[heady shadow]

Hmmm
I know we have some of the more stable summons are whatever in ffxiv..

what else from ffx could we probably get for terminus/lunar shit?(magus sisters, anima)

[dim sigil]

What does 10 even have that's unique

Other then those

[teal geyser]

Yojimbo but we already used that. Sin I guess?

Valefor

[dim sigil]

I think that's the name of a mob but the design hasn't been used

[teal geyser]

Correct. it's still useable

[dim sigil]

Just do ff4 fiends

[heady shadow]

huh wow there really isnt many other unique ones is there....

what about penance?

we dont have anything like that

[severe brook]

Penance doesn't look very Lunar or Terminus-esque, though

more like a Sin-Eater if anything, really

kind of predicting we'll get the FF4 Archfiends as the other Telophoroi, though

[heady shadow]

then i would say ffx-2's angra mainyu but that names been taken

[severe brook]

if they don't end up being the 6.X Trial Series, which i think is the other likely alternative for them

[severe brook]

i could see that design showing up with a different name

[indigo shale]

hmmm, i got tagged in here and read all what happened, i will say i didnt expect what i said to spiral into what just happened

[pastel coyote]

You should feel bad about it

[kind lark]

Insert gaius quote

[pastel coyote]

Btw what did you say ?

[severe brook]

okay i just scrolled up a bit what on earth

i just came in here to propose my "Fandaniel is Scarmiglione" theory

[indigo shale]

"idk why it was decided to go for the "feel bad for them" approach for the ascians, they had done so much evil shit that i feel its impossible to feel bad for them in any respect as what they have done since the sundering far outweighs any sort of redemption/sympathy/empathy" - this is what i said, then it was replied too and then that whole thing happened

[heady shadow]

ah

ah well, its in the past now

[indigo shale]

so yes such devestation was not my intention

[severe brook]

you know the Lunar Primals might be meant to be an allusion to FF4 but they do remind me of the Dark Aeons

[heady shadow]

ye, they look like it in a way

[subtle pasture]

Well, weren't the Dark Aeons also an allusion to FF4's Lunars?

Or such was my impression, given it's X-2 and not just ||Yevon's possessions||

[heady shadow]

i think the x-2 ones were

i dont know about the ones in x

[subtle pasture]

I, forgot about Dark Aeons in X, but yeah esp X-2's since they're fought in the ~spooky subplane~

[heady shadow]

i hated fioghting the magus sisters

if you didnt kill the little one first they be spamming their ultimate

[subtle pasture]

Oh right, just superbosses in the late game

[teal geyser]

Isn't Lunars an After Years thing?

[subtle pasture]

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lunar_Eidolons
the GBA and PSP versions, it seems

[teal geyser]

FFX came out before those so gottem

[subtle pasture]

is that after X-2 as we-- yes it is

ya'know what tho, does make a heck of a lot of sense they're bringing Anima into 14 with this premise too,

[dim sigil]

What if zenos is anima

[gaunt star]

Cant believe they light farmed amaurot

Oh wait anima from ffx nvm

[kindred rampart]

Lunarians are a thing in the original ||Cecil and Golbez father was Lunarian||

[heady shadow]

maybe we'll get a remix of this for anima too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDp_yI5_EPc

[teal geyser]

Not what Pash was talking about

[subtle pasture]

Yeah, tis was if Dark Aeons are referencing Lunar Eidolons or vice versa

or, ofc, just bein' similar concepts

[kindred rampart]

it originates from the PSP/GBA ports of FF4 as additional "super bosses" and then was further expanded in after years
FFX had a similar idea when they included Dark Aeons as bosses to defeat to unlock the final super boss for the International version of the game
It just seemed like a general concept FF has played with for a bit to add bonus material with minimal work since they're technically just recolors of base summons

[signal solar]

gilgamesh.... ON THE MOON!!

[maiden lodge]

The similar color pallette comes from basic color theory. Good things tend to be colored in primary colors. Making things cyan, purple, and such often encodes corruption.

You just see that alot.

[mighty light]

Making things tyrian purple or magenta, however, makes them royal.

[maiden lodge]

Making them flesh pink makes them lewd.

[mighty light]

Making things yellow makes them diseased, due to its association with jaundice

Green objects are often good and wholesome, but green lighting suggests corruption and abnormality

Esp. common in horror games

[warm bone]

Like blue milk

[mighty light]

Yeah

[heady shadow]

... i have this joke but i dont want to get bapped

goes with waffles

[gaunt star]

[mighty light]

... Is blue milk a thing

[gaunt star]

I have no idea what blue milk entails

[mighty light]

Okay, I'm googling it now

[heady shadow]

{nstructions. Combine milk, ice, fruit punch powder, and vanilla in a blender. Cover and blend until smooth. Stir in a few drops of blue food coloring until desired color is achieved. Poor into glasses and serve immediately}

[wind bough]

Star Wars reference I assume

[heady shadow]

its that stupid star wars shit

[mighty light]

Oh. Right, that non-issue.

Do people just like
Not know where milk comes from

[gaunt star]

Moo

[mighty light]

Oh no apparently the Last Jedi one was green milk
Blue milk is something different, which comes from banthas
So a different non-issue

[dim sigil]

It comes from the Blue Cow

[mighty light]

Sorry, yeah, exactly

[dim sigil]

Now trying to find strawberry cows that's hard

[wind bough]

Yeah blue milk is from the original Star Wars

[warm bone]

Blue milk and green eggs is the traditional tattoine breakfast iirc

[wind bough]

They drink it in the dinner scene with Luke and his family on Tattooine

[mighty light]

Do they have some variety of ham

[warm bone]

Banthas are cow analogues.

Idk if they have pig analogues

[somber storm]

gamorreans

[warm bone]

Else its probably wombrats

[somber storm]

womprats, not wombrats

[heady shadow]

ye but green eggs always existed from dr suess xD

[warm bone]

Oh is it in a book?

[heady shadow]

green eggs and ham

[warm bone]

I only ever read parts of pops on rocks

It gave me a headache

[heady shadow]

this might too lol

[mighty light]

Hop on pop is terrifying

[heady shadow]

it feels like what a sales person does every dayare you surrrrreeeee yopu dont want this?

[mighty light]

Would you eat them
In a house?
Would you eat them
With a mouse?
Would you eat them
Here or there?
Would you eat them
Anywhere?

[heady shadow]

jesusu please no T^T

[severe brook]

so i was looking into the Greek Letters used for Diamond Weapon's alternate form, which are Chi-Xi-Stigma
which turns out to be the way the Number of the Beast was written in Greek in the Book of Revelation
so they closed this out with one last Book of Revelation allusion

[dim sigil]

I heard it's supposed to be some sort of reference to the Evangelion show

[warm bone]

Which is also full of christian references.

[severe brook]

i wouldn't be surprised if Eva also used it but i cannot remember where

[torpid yoke]

diamond weapon farms hurt my soul

[dim sigil]

I love how they somehow turned into phase 2 prog

I had one group where we were killing it like right after towrs

[torpid yoke]

they always end up as meteor progs for me

[maiden lodge]

Oh man never do farms on the weekends

[torpid yoke]

since ppl keep DYING THERE FOR SOME REASON

[distant sonnet]

What other book of rev allusions?

I completely missed those, apparently.

[torpid yoke]

i understand getting hit by one laser but HOW DID SO MANY OF YOU DIE

[severe brook]

Amaurot. Just, all of Amaurot

[distant sonnet]

Ah, yes.

I'm surprised we didn't get a blatant Wormwood reference.

[severe brook]

which is arguably being repeated now in the present, with Neo Bahamut being a new First Beast

[distant sonnet]

I'm Ehhhhhhhing pretty hard on that now that we know he was nothing special.

But possibly. I guess.

[severe brook]

though I've argued that Zenos and Fandaniel feel like they fit the more symbolic interpretations of the First and Second Beasts, where you have the Tyrant Emperor and his False Prophet

[torpid yoke]

i thought amarout was a utopia reference

[mighty light]

What's Neo Bahamut

[severe brook]

Amaurot the dungeon

[torpid yoke]

lunar baha

[mighty light]

Ah okay

[torpid yoke]

oh

[severe brook]

Neo Bahamut, you know, the new one that Lahabrea's summoning in Pandaemonium
(this is a joke ignore my mistake)

[mighty light]

🤔

[echo orbit]

there's prob gonna be a shin bahamut at some point

[severe brook]

Bahamut but he's made of cancer

[tropic frigate]

bahamut but he's from another world

[sand jetty]

Is there a up to date lore?

[severe brook]

https://tenor.com/view/shin-godzilla-godzilla-atomic-beam-power-gif-17500024

[mighty light]

Bahamut, but he's made out of shin-guards.

[torpid yoke]

who wants to play Monster hunter rise with me cuz i havent bought replicant yet and people make me sad in ff14

[warm bone]

so a crab party?

[tropic frigate]

that isnt their home world

[mighty light]

@sand jetty There's a summary of the lore in #archived-lore-spoilers's pins.

[severe brook]

Pashtarot Bahamut

[severe brook]

we very well still could, we have a whole Part 2 of the patch and expansion to go

[mighty light]

Fuckin comet let's go

[dim sigil]

I'm pretty sure there's nothing else in Parts 2 other than msq and solo trial?

[mighty light]

Love me a good horror-show comet

[torpid yoke]

bozja

[heady shadow]

iwould have though black rose be wromwood]

[dim sigil]

Isnt that more like part 1.5

[torpid yoke]

no?

[dim sigil]

It comes out in between

[severe brook]

i was referring to MSQ as that possibly being our Wormwood moment

[torpid yoke]

bozja comes out in .55

[severe brook]

though they could also very well have the Seas turning to blood being part of 6.0 proper

wait it's time for me to plug the album again
https://youtu.be/eafmzAwkjLw

[tropic frigate]

also were they planning datacenter travel in 5.58?

[heady shadow]

get me some Egyptian Plague shit man.

wheres Moses?

[severe brook]

he was probably from Amdapor

[torpid yoke]

a accidental realease of whats to come in 5.5x says yes

will it actually come at that time? Most likely but its not certain till they actually say

[severe brook]

or if we go with the idea of liberating his people from an imperial power, the Moses analogue happened at some point during Allag

OG Gunnhildr was the Moses

[heady shadow]

then Noah would have been the flood calamity

maybe?

[tropic frigate]

honestly hoping datacenter travel enables PFs of the same regions

and doesnt have a pf restriction

i can understand not being able to go to EU and JP

[severe brook]

well more seriously, just because they're alluding to the Book of Revelation for the finale doesn't mean there's suddenly Abrahamic stuff all over

[heady shadow]

i mean rev is mostly just end of the world stuff anyway.