DK still needs form to get leaden fist
#retired-patch-6-3-discussion
plain saffron
maiden lodge
Before twin snek?
gaunt star
Thats the point of making formless fist the first gcd with dk so you can twin second, dot third, enhanced bootshine 4th
If it doesnt then sadchamp
odd yoke
Then PB with RoF and brothood along with other raid buffs
oak pike
gaunt star
There it is lol
odd yoke
Tenor boi
gaunt star
Im on mobile and also lazy
odd yoke
Bruh same
gaunt star
Im advanced a
Lazy
oak pike
I don’t like how later brother hood is
gaunt star
Me when patch finishes and I see krile
odd yoke
Oh nvm
oak pike
gaunt star
Brotherhood is fifth gcd which I think is later than some but not by a whole lot
odd yoke
Mobile cut off the extended so it looked like it was double bootshine in a row 
oak pike
So either 4th gcd or 6th gcd
gaunt star
Im not 100% what new monks gcd is with basically 2 GL now but it should still be the fastest gcd speed so 4th doesnt sound too bad
That should be a second or two after trick attack
Maybe more
oak pike
1.96 1.97 is gonna be the most common gcd
Though the numbers are kind of funky
I’ll probably gonna keep my same melds on monk
gaunt star
Anything beats the heart wrenching moment of "oh a cutscene GREAT"
latent stream
Looks a like a good time to pick up monk
gaunt star
Absolutely
That and you aren't spamming form shift in every dungeon at lvl 52, so that's nice
latent stream
That will be nice
odd yoke
Turn up those ovens
gaunt star
yeah... scholar...
junior cedar
Scholar.. yeah...
marsh osprey
how do we find the new gathering nodes
gaunt star
¯_(ツ)_/¯
marsh osprey
when patch hits
gaunt star
get datamined info then cross-reference with current ones?
gaunt star
thats what i plan to do
polar star
Anyone else bashing their head against a wall until 4 am est
marsh osprey
so you mean the balance discord will probs have info soon
when the patch download starts
marsh osprey
me too
gaunt star
i wanna streamline the gathering process
oak pike
So SCH will probably get a different opener?
gaunt star
no
polar star
Pet the good boy
marsh osprey
no
marsh osprey
they buffed the crap sch players and prog
marsh osprey
and did nothing for the good ones
gaunt star
REALLY hard.
marsh osprey
if you are a blm or dragoon you can stick your rod into that doggo
gaunt star
WHM technically counts
gaunt star
still big sticc energy
marsh osprey
whm needs a cane because its a job for the disabled
nocturne void
hell yeah
oak pike
gaunt star
Still like how they brought back energy drain only to shoot it in the foot a little
gaunt star
I mean it was already pretty low damage
polar star
What
gaunt star
for a resource use? kind of
polar star
It was a dps gain before lol
oak pike
A 10 pot increase per r2 Ed
gaunt star
I'm not super into their "healers should be more concerned with healing" thing
nocturne void
never forget
gaunt star
at least on the end of mitigating the utility on the player end and making the fights themselves require more healing
nocturne void
but bad healers already suck
gaunt star
I mean bad healers will suck regardless of what happens
Too many people in expert like the look of their cane and stare at it more than actually attacking
make it so healing is too hard and then you'll have death cycles in dungeons, it's a double edged sword in DF
polar star
I sure do love the look of my sword
That also happens to create blasts
Tis the life of a gunbreaker
nocturne void
Why can't I be a healer with a gun
polar star
Why can't I be a healer with a gun
Go play Overwatch
nocturne void
I did
gaunt star
If you close your eyes, Eos can be imagined to look like a gun
nocturne void
Now I'm back here
potent veldt
If we want to talk about bad healers, I was running a last minute dungeon around 1 am PST with my friend, and we had a healer who didn't bother rezzing anyone until AFTER the we were done with a boss.
polar star
50 cal*
polar star
If we want to talk about bad healers, I was running a last minute dungeon around...
it's called dpsing
if you die to a mech that's your fault
polar star
also this
nocturne void
I wonder how much it would cost to pay someone to texture the whm cane as a gun
gaunt star
that logic is stupid
if you die to a mech o well
if it's like 5% left, then just release
now if you keep dying
thats different
polar star
Logic is pretty stupid tbh but we're talking about dunb people herr
gaunt star
again... needs context
nocturne void
Whm float twirl bang bang bang bang bang
hasty totem
....oh god it’s been hours
And are we STILL on the subject of SCH?
Please tell me we went past this
gaunt star
well now it's just healers in general
polar star
Not my choice
potent veldt
The healer in question was DPSing, BUT also healing the tank.
nocturne void
Healers suck
hasty totem
Ok thank fucking god it now goes to healers in general
nocturne void
and life sucks generally
hasty totem
A slight improvement
gaunt star
Earlier we were talking about Monk changes
hasty totem
Ok you all may continue
gaunt star
what fight was it mathias
nocturne void
and then after that, video games
gaunt star
also how low was the boss
nocturne void
and then life
potent veldt
it was the end boss fight of Dzmael Darkhold
hasty totem
Sleep time. Goodnight and be good
nocturne void
no
nocturne void
I only parse 12 on good
polar star
it was the end boss fight of Dzmael Darkhold
Did they have mana
potent veldt
I think they did. They were a white mage.
polar star
Were they dpsing
gaunt star
I do think this belongs in rants tho
polar star
^
potent veldt
Were they dpsing
They were, and I asked if they could rez me, but they seemed to ignore me when I asked nicely.
polar star
did you die to a mechanic
potent veldt
I did not die to a mechanic. Just normal damage as I was working on managing my buffs as a monk.
My friend's fiance who is a healer tends to concentrate on healing and Rezzing rather than DPS, but I get the feeling every healer plays differently.
maiden lodge
Please tell me we went past this
tbf it's been all of Shadowbringers
maiden lodge
I did not die to a mechanic. Just normal damage as I was working on managing my ...
Were you making sure to roll BL and Second Wind?
polar star
My friend's fiance who is a healer tends to concentrate on healing and Rezzing r...
not dpsing is just playing the job badly tbh
potent veldt
Yeah, I had both of those on. The second time we got the boss.
gaunt star
well iether way that healer should've been healing
gaunt star
yes?
swift kraken
hey whats going on here
gaunt star
one heal is enough to leave them alive for a while
potent veldt
The healer was focused on keeping the Tank alive as he was a sprout and new to the dungeon.
polar star
I mean if I don't have swiftcast up I'm not going to res unless I need to
maiden lodge
So there's two possibilities I can forsee, because that boss only has, like... two things that can really hit you--the puddles (that's your bad) and his aoe. The boss's aoe attacks aren't even necessarily that bad if you down the boss fast enough
gaunt star
I mean if I don't have swiftcast up I'm not going to res unless I need to
then heal so people dont die 
polar star
not my fault if they stand in a mechanic
gaunt star
I did not die to a mechanic
odd yoke
Tactical disconnect
odd yoke
Tactical disconnect strat for world first
maiden lodge
he does aoes around him
He does two aoes around him. One is a cleave that melee can avoid, and the other is, as you say, unavoidable. But he can't do those aoes if you kill him fast enough they don't matter. This is a problem you can literally solve with more deeps
gaunt star
fair
either way
healer shouldnt be letting people die unless dps/tank is stupid and collecting vuln stacks
in the event of the unavoidable, he could of thrown out like ONE medica 2
maiden lodge
No, I agree, but the problem is the healer wasn't 'letting people die' so much as they were doing bad triage
I'm guessing he was 'focused on keeping the tank up' by spamming Cure
So the issue then is he's not healing--he's pissing away his gcds by healing with duck farts in a tornado.
potent veldt
and, on a separate occasion in the same dungeon during the 2nd boss, my friend (playing a Dragoon) went down and the white mage waited until the 2nd boss was down and defeated before rezzing my friend.
maiden lodge
in the event of the unavoidable, he could of thrown out like ONE medica 2
Not in DD he ain't
Yeah, going down on the second boss is totes not the healer's fault
gaunt star
oh right medica 2 is lvl 50
marsh osprey
and, on a separate occasion in the same dungeon during the 2nd boss, my friend (...
sometimes
we just
cant rez
because we have no mp
gaunt star
running out of mp at lv44
marsh osprey
very easy
river hinge
if you DPS constantly ... maybe
gaunt star
marsh osprey
because you have to use mp costly gcd heals
gaunt star
theyre costly but they dont need to be spammed
marsh osprey
exspecially when your team is full of shitters
river hinge
depends on the level and dungeon though
river hinge
lower levels you can run out of MP, but if you ease up on DPS mp will go up
marsh osprey
or near BiS
river hinge
yea
marsh osprey
yeah but standing still and doing no dps feels terrible
marsh osprey
i really thought about just making a neoishgard set just so roulettes are more comfy
u can dps and not run out of mp
weary monolith
me speculating the bard buff is literally just a random 10 potency increase to a random spell
i was right
river hinge
yes, I meant to say, around 50 or lower I can run out of MP from dps
weary monolith
marsh osprey
it really sucks having no thin air on whm
river hinge
any level higher I have to TRY to run out of MP, but I doubt I could do it
marsh osprey
and all the expensive spells
even worse on sch
before ed
and the sch heals are even worse than whms
river hinge
yeah they are, just use your OGCDs on SCH and you should be fine
swift kraken
aurum vale on sch isnt that bad
river hinge
Aurum Vale isn't that bad, I don't understand the hate.
swift kraken
youre just gonna have to take the adlo L
because its aids
with people who dont know what theyre doing
marsh osprey
yeah
swift kraken
and the first room has some disgusting hit detection at timed
river hinge
I explain mechanics if people are new
potent veldt
Anyway, to turn the attention back to the patch, This will honestly be the first time my friend, his fiance and I have been really excited for a patch. We got done with the MSQ like 3 weeks prior.
swift kraken
like the frog can spot you, pull you in
and suddenly
10 mobs aggro you
bit fucked when that happens
river hinge
Was your group not excited for 5.3?
potent veldt
So, for the first time, we get to experience new content at the same time as everyone else.
river hinge
yup, I'm logging in at 2am to make the big monopoly monies
marsh osprey
so badly
potent veldt
Was your group not excited for 5.3?
We were still going through the storyline at that poitn in time.
river hinge
good deal
river hinge
I was very excited prior to 5.0, I hadn't had that excitement since I played XI waiting for a new expansion
it was amazing
marsh osprey
also i got to prog the first raid ever blind
a lot of fun
man next expansion hype is gonna be gigantic
river hinge
I'm looking forward to 5.45 Bozja 48 man dungeon
potent veldt
I'm one of those new players.
marsh osprey
same
river hinge
I need to take a long break soon, so I can be ready for 6.0 with fresh eyes
pulsar current
i am also one of those new players
potent veldt
I started late July after my friends got me the full set of game and their spare gaming laptop.
river hinge
Welcome new players, I hope XIV has been fun so far 🙂
potent veldt
fun, yes. Stressful... also yes.
river hinge
I live on Sarg, in their Novice Network.
I spend most of my time crafting and helping run BA in Eureka.
pastel coyote
new player ? Did you catch up to 5.3 ?
rustic heath
Alot of aether players in here 
potent veldt
new player ? Did you catch up to 5.3 ?
my friends and I are working on it. We're up to the end of the MSQ storyline & Eden, and we have the Resistance weapons for our main classes.
river hinge
Raiding burns me out hard, but I've been successful in the last two tiers PUGing it. I'm proud of that.
desert raven
WTB static
pulsar current
I completed my first savage on saturday in one sitting somehow
raiding is fun but hella stressful
river hinge
prog to finish?
rustic heath
I started one year ago. Exactly
marsh osprey
yeah e5s aint to bad when you have friends that can do callouts
e6s isnt that bad either
pulsar current
thanks! we went for barley getting to 50% to beating it
pulsar current
our leader was super helpful, she's training all of us at once
river hinge
e8s is torture
maiden lodge
e7s is pretty easy
marsh osprey
e7s has very steep dps and healchecks
river hinge
I love the fight, but its still torture
marsh osprey
its not as easy to prog while the fight is technically very easy
e5s is a joke with aoes
e6s has inferno howl and thats it
river hinge
I think E7s is a bit boring for 80% of the fight
marsh osprey
if you know where to stand
gaunt star
it is
marsh osprey
its very easy
vernal rivet
Me sitting here... havent cleared any savage...
maiden lodge
bear in mind, this is relative
pulsar current
well I guess we did it like2.5 hours so maybe thats why
river hinge
saying something is "easy" does not take into account other people's experiences and perspective
maiden lodge
We're not saying it's easy compared to, say 'ruby weapon ex'
marsh osprey
donuts are dangerous too
gaunt star
donuts too
marsh osprey
and stepped leader
marsh osprey
thats about it
river hinge
stepped leader gets me everytime
gaunt star
thats it tho
maiden lodge
'easy' doesn't imply 'this is the same as doing a dungeon' like that context shouldn't need be said. We mean 'easy as savage goes'
gaunt star
SL in thunderstorm and 2nd stormclouds
gaunt star
enrage timer is very long too
maiden lodge
We mean 'You can reasonably expect to clear it if you put in the effort' vs 'Holy fuck you'll hit a wall named Light Rampant'
marsh osprey
yep
gaunt star
10:06 to 10:56 is enrage
river hinge
want to buy a Light Rampant skip
marsh osprey
e8s is just every mechanic can easily wipe the raid
gaunt star
^
marsh osprey
its annoying
gaunt star
you have very few areas where you can save a run
desert raven
LR is easy... fite me
marsh osprey
it is
river hinge
It is easy
vernal rivet
I can LR but i cant mirror mirror
gaunt star
yup
river hinge
and barely any feedback on who screwed up which light thingy
vernal rivet
All of em
gaunt star
maiden lodge
There's tricks to all the mirror mirrors
marsh osprey
river hinge
what do you mean by you cannot do them?
vernal rivet
I can never imagine bitting driving frost reflections
river hinge
what does that look like ?
river hinge
hmm, do you know why?
vernal rivet
And also always not sure how twin silence spawns
marsh osprey
usually there should somebody in your raid doing the callouts for those mechanics
which makes it far easier
river hinge
if you have a group that knows what they are doing you can usually follow their lead on mirrors
maiden lodge
I can never imagine bitting driving frost reflections
Boss faces north. If biting frost, go away from the boss on the red-mirror side. Once mirror goes, go to other side.
If driving, go north and hug the north mirror on the side without the red mirror. once mirror drivings, go to the opposite side of that north mirror.
vernal rivet
Only thing ive progged in pf is SOS
gaunt star
Some of the best things you can do is share mechanic callouts and it'll save a lot of time
river hinge
ahh, so... are you talking about E8 (none savage)?
vernal rivet
No i mean in savage
maiden lodge
OH
marsh osprey
loool
river hinge
that makes sense 😛
river hinge
mirrors are completely different from none savage to savage
maiden lodge
Twin Silence is get behind, then sides. Twin Stillness is get sides, then back.
marsh osprey
i dont recommend it but it really helps to learn the game when you are a total noob
maiden lodge
Right I got it backwards
gaunt star
yea
vernal rivet
Also my fc got past quintuple cast on SOS ex so many times but cant clear the final dps check
maiden lodge
embitted is scythe then axe
As a caster, both of those are 'gtfo'
gaunt star
nothing ffeels better than getting stunned, but it runs out after the first embittered kick
river hinge
how is your FC's gear and DPS?
gaunt star
so you can escape the damage down / death
vernal rivet
We’re all casuals
maiden lodge
Also my fc got past quintuple cast on SOS ex so many times but cant clear the fi...
Work on not getting hit by those damage debuff downs
gaunt star
nod nod
maiden lodge
If you can down the adds you can do the dps check as a whole
marsh osprey
Also my fc got past quintuple cast on SOS ex so many times but cant clear the fi...
if you cant do that dps check then all of you are have no idea how to play their jobs
vernal rivet
Its a rotation problem. But i finally cleared with a pf
gaunt star
good frame of reference is at LEAST 70% before add phase. 69 -67 is better though
70% is pushing it
and you'll probably need light buff/few deaths
vernal rivet
Well thats a pretty extreme statement
maiden lodge
Well thats a pretty extreme statement
Is it?
gaunt star
Yeah you can clear it with a lot of deaths and still skip spectrals
vernal rivet
maiden lodge
Some of us have clocked 100+ kills on it
marsh osprey
not really extreme statement, just a fact
if you run augmented neoishgard or some shit
the fight is a joke
maiden lodge
I can say that, with my experience running with pugs, and getting the tokens needed for the mount... that yeah, the dps check is not an issue on that fight, once you know it.
gaunt star
The damage down debuff probably hurts more than deaths though
gaunt star
I think(?) it can stack
maiden lodge
And yeah, the damage down debuff is the usual cause of enrages--it's 50% at one, and 100% at 2 stacks
maiden lodge
Deaths is huge, but that damage down for failing mechanics is actually worse, if you get two stacks, you're literally doing 0 damage.
marsh osprey
i forgot
marsh osprey
man i guess i was lucky with pf
maiden lodge
I mean pf can usually handle it
maiden lodge
Pugs are up to the task
river hinge
SoS sounds like one of the easier extremes to pug
marsh osprey
not always
river hinge
I never did it myself, because pugging extremes just aint my thing
maiden lodge
SoS isn't as easy as Ruby Extreme, but less easy to pug than Hades Ex.
marsh osprey
and the fight is very random
maiden lodge
Yeah, the big barrier to pugging is the random order of the spectrals
runic sierra
@marsh osprey did you get your winking sleep yet ?
runic sierra
Get your butt to bed and rest
marsh osprey
i had a day nap
i cant sleep yet
maybe ill work a bit on my pc case
until im tired
runic sierra
I like the sound of that, I'll take a nap as well. Show us your pc case as you progress!! Want to see
paper zealot
someone died at the end
marsh osprey
its done but i need to do a few things
runic sierra
Omg sounds like someone is going to get popular
marsh osprey
graphics card is too huge
looks like this, but anyway not the right topic for the channel
loud lake
uhm is this a new expansion or just update? big conf
loud lake
ah oki new expansion would probably be 6.0
odd yoke
Yea
marsh osprey
ye
odd yoke
And would have major marketing and buying
loud lake
thanks 
runic sierra
Holy of all holy towers, that is lovely. I got one like that but twice the size and it barely fit the graphics card. How on earth are you fitting them all in Is a wonder
Its pure white that is begging to be coloured @marsh osprey
I'm going to take that nap : ) thanks for sharing friendo
stable island
You knoe guys, the Eorzean Alliance knows there is a civil war in Garlemald going on, i wonder if Lyse is talking about invading Garlemald from Ala Mhigo in the trailer. Ala Mhigo lies on the western border of garlemald.
Via the Burn from the east is a suicide run and via the south is not possible.
marsh osprey
oh where did they say that
subtle pasture
In the mention of the extra materia slots in the dgn and promise normal
marsh osprey
but anyway im gonna gather my ass off to get that gear
river hinge
I'm getting that gear and selling it ❤️
marsh osprey
i hope whm cane with crystal looks as good as the other weapons in the teaser image
subtle pasture
This will also affect the balance of gear obtained from Eden's Promise (Savage), as well as the newly added Exarchic crafted gear. We apologize for this and ask for your understanding.
However, it should be noted that, as with previous patches, fully melded Exarchic crafted gear will prove comparable to, if not more effective than, the aforementioned belts and accessories.
oak pike
So exarchic gonna have 3 guaranteed melds?
marsh osprey
So exarchic gonna have 3 guaranteed melds?
oak pike
Oh I see
maiden lodge
No
It means that because Eden Normal gear has two slots on its belt and accessories instead of one, it affects where crafted and Savage gear sits relative to it.
It does not mean that crafted gear and savage gear have a third slot.
It's also saying that crafted, because of pentamelding, should still be as good or better than Eden Normal belts and accessories.
mellow dirge
Oohhh! Hey winking would you be able to throw that build into the tech channel? That looks awesome and I'd like to see what all is in it if you please!
wet crown
Until they bring up other shards
polar star
ah so me?
swift kraken
wait where is the 2 melds thing stated @maiden lodge
polar star
Except I have 1500 hours of game time?
gaunt star
i see bard is getting a meme buff again?
polar star
Not meme buff - 10 potency will add up since Burst is one of the most if not the most used skill unless you get Refulgent to proc every dot refresh and burst shoy
pastel coyote
i don't target anyone specifically, except the one who don't live in the lore-spoiler chan
gentle temple
I love seeing new players get invested in the story and guess what'll be next
oak pike
I remember running through the story and got off guard post innocence fight where emet used the power of gun
potent veldt
at this point, I'm interested to see where the story is going now.
oak pike
And then thinking wait are we a walking light nuke
gentle temple
No one expects the Garlean inquisitiongun
scenic sun
No one expects the Garlean ~~inquisition~~gun
No body expects Zeno's thicc rage
latent stream
Zeno just reminds me of code ment
THE ONLY PERSON WHO GETS TO KILL ME IS ME!
GOOD LUCK TRYING TO KILL ME, WHEN I'M ALREADY DEAD!!
He's arguably killed himself twice at this point
Although the second time it was technically elidibus I guess
dim sigil
rain onyx
“Who’s stupider; the man trying to kill himself or the man trying to kill the man who’s killing himself”
wind bough
Cute channel
latent stream
Pour one out for ya Boi purpleeyes
rain onyx
odd yoke
dusk drift
polar star
gentle temple
What if Zenos realized he could just clone himself and fight the clones.
pastel coyote
You know cloning don't work like that right ?
gaunt star
theoretically if I clone myself and then have sexual relations with it, is it incest?
asking for a friend
rain onyx
That’s called selfcest/autosexual, based on the fanfics I’ve read.
gaunt star
the friend might be a clone of myself
damnit
wait so if I kill that clone, is it murder?
or is it suicide
I still bet Zenos gets a Vegeta moment and there’s a duty where we either play as him or fight alongside him
if I play as zenos I will coom
then again the trailer did see him stepping on the special katana he got from the Kojins
so not sure what he'd play like
5.4 will certainly be interesting
next quarry
Zenos looks like he would have a 3 second gcd
gaunt star
It’s often overlooked but Zenos’ gimmick is he discards his current weapon and picks up the weapon of whatever the strongest thing he recently killed is
next quarry
Pretty slow guy
gaunt star
He does it like 10 times in SB
rain onyx
5 seconds, he needs time to gloat between every hit
next quarry
Truee
rain onyx
He’s one of those samurai that has a text macro on all of his skills
gaunt star
I wager we're going to merge with zenos to fight the "real enemy" later on :V
why would we merge?
next quarry
Merge...?
gaunt star
because it's a cheesy anime cliche
next quarry
I feel like Zenos is the main enemy
gaunt star
keep in mind the ascians weren't so bad after all
well I'd doubt they would do that since we both exist on the same shard
cunning briar
I wonder if we're getting a new boss theme for 5.4 since we've made it back home and a Matoya dungeon probably means it's in the Dravanian Hinterlands
gaunt star
potentially but I'm not holding my breath
cunning briar
Yeah, a revenge twofold situation
gaunt star
I feel like Zenos has to be another member of the convocation whose soul is like 8 times rejoined like ours or something
even if we don't merge, I find it more likely we'll be allies rather than enemies
especially since they've played up the enemy angle for two expansions now
next quarry
I'd rather be allies with ascians than zenos
gaunt star
I'm like 80% sure he's just some guy that likes killing things who happens to be OP due to experiments and also happens to be royalty
viscid monolith
Everyone's soul is 7 times rejoined on the Source
One more rejoining doesn't add up to much
swift kraken
i mean he has dreams of amaurot since he was born
gaunt star
sorry, is bored of killing things*
swift kraken
clearly hes more special
gaunt star
That's true
swift kraken
not just some guy anymore
viscid monolith
We don't even have a reason why we're special
gaunt star
when did he get that artificial echo
gaunt star
Experiments
swift kraken
i assumed it was from krile
gaunt star
He got it from experiments like the other Resonant
gaunt star
He's been like that since before Krile was even kidnapped, I thought
gaunt star
I could be wrong, my SB knowledge is iffy at best
Yeah he got it before Krile was used to give it to Fordola, whoever he got the Echo from he likely juiced until they died
He probably has drained multiple echo bearers
To give himself a super echo
next quarry
Zenos can control his echo, right
gaunt star
tfw
I mean he possessed a primal that was strong enough to bring on another calamity like it was nothing
he got it during the events of SB, I got it now
gaunt star
And we know he was experimented on by Elidibus as well so maybe he was always supposed to be the new heart of Zodiark after the Rejoining or something
Wouldn't be terribly far fetched since Hades/Emet did found the Garlean Empire
gaunt star
I'd put it as resonance being a corrupted form of echo, just like the things that destroyed the ascians were beings formed of a corrupted version of creation
then the question is just what's causing the corruption
next quarry
Aren't people chosen to be put into the seats of the convocation
swift kraken
yes
next quarry
Rather than just dumped there
gaunt star
I'd say it's in it's most perfect state
swift kraken
its not possible anymore though
next quarry
Fandaniel might've
viscid monolith
There's no corruption. It's just an exact copy of someone else's Echo
next quarry
idk
next quarry
He's sundered
gaunt star
They clearly don't want us to see it as an exact copy of the echo
next quarry
All unsundered are dead according to fanny
next quarry
Ahh
urban turret
i doubt it
gaunt star
And yet it's called different things, they have different visuals
swift kraken
fandaniel is more special in some way
gaunt star
I don't remember body hopping
urban turret
i think "ooohhhhhh another unsundered isn't that cool" would be hard to pull off
swift kraken
what would be cool is if
viscid monolith
Body hopping has been a thing since 2.2
swift kraken
he was an unsundered that wasnt tempered
next quarry
I think we'll see it when fanny involves the new Bahamut
swift kraken
viscid monolith
All the Ascains can do it
gaunt star
I don't remember us body hopping*
next quarry
We didn't
swift kraken
we dont body hop
next quarry
The sahagin did
swift kraken
but we could technically do it
viscid monolith
The Echo is just watered down version of what the Ancients had but it has access to w aide array of abilities
pastel coyote
We have weapon against people like you
viscid monolith
And we won't body hop because that requires, you know, dying.
urban turret
i really doubt that Fandanial is unsundered. seems unfitting with everything. i feel like it'd just feel like a cheap gag at this point unless there's more setting it up
gaunt star
The ancients destroyed themselves with the full-power echo, though.
viscid monolith
We don't know if they destroyed themselves. No one knows where the sound came from.
swift kraken
its just speculation and technically possible
viscid monolith
It came from "the planet" or something
swift kraken
fandaniel not being tempered seems like a plot twist thats reasonable though
that would be interesting
pastel coyote
Upon you i unleash the wrath of Rommy 
The Echo is the power to break down the barriers of existence. It is a fraction of the power once possessed by the Ancients that manifests in an extremely small portion of the population. The reason for this is that it only manifests in those who were both present during the Final Days and were so deeply affected by it that it left a scar upon their very souls. By triggering their souls with imagery resembling the starshower, you can manifest these powers, though most people only display a small amount.
These powers are broadly grouped into three categories.
The first is the Power to Transcend Words - allowing one to understand the whispers of the soul and thereby transcend language. In extreme examples, this can even cause a form of mind reading, as displayed by Krile, or even limited precognition, like Fordola's Echo, which is copied from Krile.
The second, the Power to Transcend Time, allows someone to witness events of a person or place that possesses aetheric resonance. Some people, such as Mikoto, also experience this as the ability to see glimpses of the future.
The third, the Power to Transcend Worlds, is foremost used to commune directly with the Mothercrystal Hydaelyn but can also be used to transcend death itself, preserving the soul to possess another body or travel between dimensions.
All who have the Echo are seemingly immune to primal influence. However, Zenos, using his artificial or Resonant Echo, also displays the ability to impress his will upon a primal through possession, a feat he attributes to the Echo not "protecting" people from primal influence but rather placing their own influence above the primal's. This would explain how the Ascians, who have the Echo, can also be tempered despite it.
viscid monolith
Well Fandaniel is either lying or not tempered at all
maiden lodge
Fandanial being unsundered would be an unlikely thing because Fandanial being unsundered would be a surprise to Emet-selch who fricken Raised him in the first place.
Also
pastel coyote
Well Emet would see if he was unsundered
maiden lodge
Of course Emet would see it, but more importantly, Emet would have been the one to give Fandaniel the original Fanny's memories
But besides that, untempered sundered would be the default assumption.
swift kraken
well that would just make it perhaps possible that getting untempered might be a thing
we do see ga bu in the trailer
so that might come up one way or another
gaunt star
that's a good point
maiden lodge
Zodiark tempered the Convocation, when he was summoned. Right? Right.
But only three of those survived to the present day, so those who weren't there to be tempered are probably not tempered.
swift kraken
hes like the prequel on getting untempered
if fandaniel found a way to cheat himself out of getting tempered
that would be interesting i think
viscid monolith
You mean the original one?
maiden lodge
Fandaniel would have cheated himself out of being tempered by the simple fact that the Fandaniel who was tempered by the summoning of Zodiark is a completely different guy
viscid monolith
They have no means to temper new Ascians as far as we know. Feels like that would have come up.
maiden lodge
The original was sundered.
swift kraken
i dont feel like we should speak in absolutes about fandaniel yet
maiden lodge
We already know the following things, by default, about Fandaniel:
A) He's sundered
swift kraken
who knows who the hell that guy really is
pastel coyote
Dis would probably disagree with me, but Zodiark tempering is not your casual tempering. It's the primal who could rewrite the world to save it and was able to temper Ancient, so getting out of his will seem like.... far more difficult than your "normal" primal.
maiden lodge
Dis would probably disagree with me, but Zodiark tempering is not your casual te...
I would because there's no evidence of this.
There's no evidence of tempering surviving past death--in fact Emet-selch breaking his tempering by dying kinda puts the kibosh on this.
viscid monolith
We've seen that 3 times in fact
With Louisoux and Nael. On the brink of death it seems like people snap out of their tempering.
maiden lodge
Right, but 'Zodiark is different' is just special pleading--and it's not even a legitimate 'this could maybe be true' because Emet contradicts it.
maiden lodge
I mean even if Emet was 'special tempered'
There's no evidence that 'special tempering' can survive death
And there's even evidence that the sundered are not tempered.
Nabriales.
pastel coyote
How ?
maiden lodge
A sundered ascian cannot act against the temperer, correct?
pastel coyote
He didn't ?
maiden lodge
Yes, he actually did.
pastel coyote
Nope
wind bough
Nabriales is all about that glory for himself in 2.x cutscenes
maiden lodge
You see, Elidibus, being a primal subset of Zodiark, is part of the temperer.
wind bough
Elidibus has to give him a rebuke
maiden lodge
Nabriales could act against Emet, and Lahabrea, but NOT Elidibus, and Nabriales's actions in 2.5 are literally to strike against the Paragons of the Source and take over.
Nabriales is seeking to dethrone Elidibus. If he were tempered, he couldn't. Not to the Heart of Zodiark.
next quarry
No matter what happens, I just wanna see the connection between Zodiark and Necron
pastel coyote
You're gonna find me the line that prove that Dis
maiden lodge
So, until such a time as evidence exists at all that the sundered are tempered, it is safer to assume they are not.
swift kraken
i feel like saying elidibus being part of zodiark even in tempering is a bit of a stretch
maiden lodge
You want me to prove that Nabriales wanted Tuspimati to fast-track Zodiark's summoning and replace the Paragons of the Source as Zodiark's favored?
pastel coyote
To me he was just a fanatic who would do anything for his god
maiden lodge
Except that Elidibus is a part of Zodiark.
subtle pasture
Sundered Ascians sure got a streak for being... messy,
pastel coyote
he is a part of it, not him
maiden lodge
In fact, Elidibus is the -voice- of Zodiark to them
subtle pasture
Mitron, Lohgrif, and Igeyorhm caused Floods, etc
swift kraken
saying that elidibus is zodiark is a stretch
hes part of him but that doesnt mean he enjoys the same privileges
maiden lodge
Saying that Elidibus, the voice of Zodiark, is not, is also a stretch.
subtle pasture
That isn't what was said, he is an extension and part of Zodi-- yeah
pastel coyote
and Emet wasn't "praise Elidibus, the heart of the One True God !" when himself was tempered
swift kraken
dis youd have to prove to me that people have to answer to elidibus because hes zodiark
not the other way around
maiden lodge
I do not have to prove that because that's not my claim.
viscid monolith
It's kinda flimsy on the part of Nabriales and Elidibus we do have precedent for tempered people listening to the heart of a primal.
maiden lodge
My claim is that Elidibus is -part of Zodiark- and is the -voice of the father-, and the part that does the speaking, and therefore, the part that gives orders, and therefore, yes, they do in fact listen to him.
subtle pasture
Zodiark explicitly ejected him-- or a shade of the man who bore the Seat of Elidibus-- because the Convocation wanted him,
swift kraken
sorry, youd have to prove that being an offspawn of zodiark makes the tempered answer to him because he is a part of zodiark
semantics
viscid monolith
Thordan tempered some of his knights and they listened to him whether he was transformed or not.
pastel coyote
no one treated Elidibus as special outside of the hierarchy between the sundered and unsundered
maiden lodge
no one treated Elidibus as special outside of the hierarchy between the sundered...
Untrue, there's multiple cutscenes where he's given credence, grudgingly, as the emmisary.
swift kraken
yeah but thats not because hes part of zodiark. its because hes the emmissary and enjoys a special status
pastel coyote
yeah, it's called hierarchy
subtle pasture
Prior to Zodiark's invocation the Emissary's role was merely mediation between the Seats,
maiden lodge
And more over, I do not have to prove they'd obey Elidibus if they were tempered because my proposition is that they are not tempered
pastel coyote
thank to help my side Dis
swift kraken
hes their superior
subtle pasture
post, well, now he's Voice of the Father
maiden lodge
So how the fuck can I use evidence that they'd obey Elidibus as if they were tempered when my point is they're not
swift kraken
its like saying someone doesnt believe in god because they arent listening to a priest
maiden lodge
So instead, Lance's evidence actually works, of the Heavensward obeying Thordan as tempered, even when Thordan wasn't in primal form
viscid monolith
Elidibus is a primal and everyone is aware of it. They don't see him as a simple priest.
maiden lodge
Similarly, the Blades obeying Misija, even when she isn't got Save the Queen out
viscid monolith
A primal that was ejected out of Zodiark.
viscid monolith
In fact Elidibus is the same type of Primal as Zodiark
viscid monolith
He feeds of off people's desire for salvation
swift kraken
him saying hes a primal still doesnt provide evidence that nabriales wasnt tempered
maiden lodge
No, but the ability for Nabriales to act against him DOES.
viscid monolith
That's why just having so many Warriors of Light around made him so powerful
Ya Nabriales clearly didn't give a shit about Elidibus
swift kraken
im saying that those 2 things dont have a corrolation
maiden lodge
And Elidibus isn't like 'a part of Zodiark'
viscid monolith
And Fandaniel also doesn't care.
maiden lodge
Any more than Ysayle would be 'a part' of Shiva
swift kraken
youre saying that just because nabriales didnt give a shit about elidibus he didnt give a shit about zodiark
pastel coyote
Well let's try with an other case: Emet and Azem
subtle pasture
ya'know there's prob not much diff between uh,
swift kraken
which is clearly not the case in the text
maiden lodge
No, I did not say that.
subtle pasture
Elidibus, post-ejection, and the Sari-Egi in SMN
maiden lodge
I did not, in any way, claim Nabriales did not give a shit about Zodiark.
swift kraken
you were explicitly saying we have an example of nabriales not being tempered
maiden lodge
I'm saying Nabriales was not tempered, because he could act in an untempered way towards the Voice of the Father.
This is evidence. Not proof, I admit, but evidence.
pastel coyote
Emet was tempered, Emet did make the preparation to help us later if we need it and doing it clearly goes against zodiark/elidibus plan
maiden lodge
Now what is the counterevidence?
gaunt star
Emet is absolutely clever enough to make plans in case the summoning fell through
Didn't he not kill Minfillia specifically because Eli would of been livid?
viscid monolith
Honestly Emet probably made the crystals before summoning Zodiark or right before dying.
pastel coyote
Actually..... there is an evidence that he was tempered
The fact that he could come when the blessing was sealed
swift kraken
the burden on proof lies on you not on me to provide counter-evidence because youre making a claim thats not yet been substantiated by the text aside from the assumption that elidibus being a part of zodiark makes him have some sort of special power over the other ascians
its flimsy evidence at best
viscid monolith
That isn't connected to tempering at all
maiden lodge
The fact that he could come when the blessing was sealed
He's not a Paragon of the Source. Paragons of the Source can, he can't. Paragons of the Source are tempered. Thus temperedness is not the quality that determines that.
pastel coyote
And being a paragon implied he is tempered
maiden lodge
the burden on proof lies on *you* not on me to provide counter-evidence because ...
The burden of proof is not on me to prove someone who was not present for a summoning that tempered people was not tempered.
The burden of proof is on those who claim that someone not present for a summoning were tempered.
viscid monolith
And that's why Moenbryda's death is Midgardsormr's fault
maiden lodge
The null hypothesis IS that Nabriales is untempered.
viscid monolith
Paragon has nothing to do with being tempered
swift kraken
i mean the answer to your question is
viscid monolith
It's literally just what the Ascians call themselves. Especially to people they manipulate.
maiden lodge
You're asking me to support the proposition that they are untempered, while ignoring the fact the burden of proof is on you to show that they are.
pastel coyote
Keep Fandaniel out of this, he seem like an odd ball
subtle pasture
Yeah, Paragons was one of the OG terms before Yoshida loved "Ascian" and ran with it,
maiden lodge
So I'm saying 'here is evidence that might indicate they are untempered'
ADmitting it's nonconclusive
swift kraken
why would the ascians exist and fuck up entire worlds and die for zodiark (igeyorhm), and answer to the unsundered, if they werent tempered to zodiark
maiden lodge
But stating 'it still stands you've not shown any evidence they are tempered.'
swift kraken
i cant answer that question
maiden lodge
That's not my problem.
subtle pasture
Don't neeed to be aetherically brainwashed to be brainwashed,
subtle pasture
rather, they're not compelled to by him, they believe in the cause bc the Paragons are persuasive
swift kraken
the claim that no unsundered are tempered relies on a lot of assumptions
especially when emet can tell
subtle pasture
like Cylva and Unu who were either "hey go do my machinations" or starve out in the Void.
maiden lodge
Varis was along with rejoining and he wasn't tempered so we know that one needs not be tempered to go along with rejoining.
maiden lodge
the claim that no unsundered are tempered relies on a lot of assumptions
The only assumption it relies upon is that people who aren't at a tempering aren't going to be tempered. We call this the 'no shit sherlock' default.
We know the people at the summoning were tempered.
We're not disputing that.
willow pecan
More importantly are we officially warriors of light again?😯
swift kraken
my bad there
maiden lodge
We're disputing that completely different guys born thousands of years later would be tempered at that event
gaunt star
haven't we always been WoL?
swift kraken
varis is also a special case because hes in emets debt
viscid monolith
Idk guys 13 thousand year old wizards are probably super persuasive especially when they can prove what they are saying by making you an immortal wizard.
Just saying
swift kraken
by yknow, given the empire
gaunt star
We just happened to be of Darkness cuz we were bringing the darkness back by absorbing excess light
maiden lodge
Varis wasn't given the empire by Emet, lawl
subtle pasture
Oh I thought this was going to a notion that the Constellation Crystals might also carry an imprint of the Tempered Seat that could possible be enthralling the new uplifted Shards,
viscid monolith
There are no semantics
maiden lodge
No, I don't know what you mean because what you said contradicts the facts of the matter.
viscid monolith
Varis hated Emet
subtle pasture
by again, Nab and Fan's... ambition, derides that,
viscid monolith
He didn't feel any gratitude
viscid monolith
varis is also a special case because hes in emets debt
What does this mean then
willow pecan
We just happened to be of Darkness cuz we were bringing the darkness back by abs...
Its always been just a title yup but im more curious if they will call us that again or if our title changed on the source as well :D
maiden lodge
" varis is also a special case because hes in emets debt"
He literally SHOT emet immediately on Emet saying hello
So no I do not know what you mean because Varis literally contradicts this.
swift kraken
but his status and the fate of an empire rests on emet and he seems to care about both of these
viscid monolith
The entire plan was to betray him. It was a stupid plan but it was the plan.
What
maiden lodge
No, he does not.
subtle pasture
Varis had grandpa issues, then learned grandpa was one of the things he set out to destroy, then that he was merely a pawn in another Ascian game,
maiden lodge
He stated outright why he was going along with it
subtle pasture
guy was beyond broken,
gaunt star
Its always been just a title yup but im more curious if they will call us that a...
I think its specific to the Shard because the WoL title was a taboo at the time, if we're on the source, we'll be WoL
maiden lodge
He supported rejoining because, in his own words, he wanted the power of unsunderedness so they could fight the ascians, the unsundered, on their own level.
It literally was because he wanted to -stop- Emet, and Elidibus.
swift kraken
okay lets boil that down again
he has his own goals and emet helps him achieve those as well
maiden lodge
His own goals are to stop Emet.
swift kraken
so hes going along with it for the most part and also because emet is a 13 thousand year old super wizard
maiden lodge
He's being manipulated by them.
subtle pasture
And let's be clear, Varis' plan was a fucking awful one,
just playing to their own means anyhow,
maiden lodge
He doesn't need to be tempered to be manipulated by them. He doesn't even have to agree with them to be manipulated by them.
So
Take some guy on some shard
'Hey do you want to be an immortal megawizard and get some power?'
'Sure.'
Bam, instant pawn.
Shit's not hard yo
unkempt bloom
someone ping me when patch is live so i can datamine pls
swift kraken
...i mean, even with varis in the picture thats still no proof because youve spent the entire time arguing that varis was planning to betray emet 
and the sundered dont really seem to be interested in betraying zodiark
im not convinced by any of these arguments
pastel coyote
zzzz i can't find a screen or the line where Emet say that the soul is eroded to a point that even after death the tempering of zodiark remain. I think it was before the elevator.
maiden lodge
I'm sorry you're not convinced someone could serve ascian interests, willingly, without being tempered by Zodiark
Despite the existance of someones serving ascian interests without being tempered by Zodiark
swift kraken
youve just spend your entire time giving varis as an example and then say he was doing it unwillingly
maiden lodge
Hell, even a shard of Azem can be manipulated into it.
swift kraken
youre shooting yourself in the foot here
maiden lodge
I never said it was unwillingly
swift kraken
he was planning to betray emet so how willing could it be lol
maiden lodge
Holy shit, man, you are strawmanning me so hard I keep expecting it to go to the wizard of oz with some Kansas girl, a tin man, and a quasi-gay lion
subtle pasture
See, I think the overaching issue with falling on "well they're all tempered," strips the autonomy they have,
when like, they are awful people,
and didn't need primal brainmelts to add to it
pastel coyote
you have some weird fetish here Dis
maiden lodge
you have some weird fetish here Dis
Gotta represent the lollipop guild my dude
gentle temple
Emet says the shards of the tempered make the 'truest servants'.
I suspect this means something lingers, but it's pretty unlikely that they're reborn actually tempered.
swift kraken
i dont know how im strawmanning you, i just dont think youve provided enough evidence for me to be convinced by your theory
maiden lodge
I think that more has to do with soul affinity for the memories in the Convocaiton crystals
maiden lodge
i dont know how im strawmanning you, i just dont think youve provided enough evi...
You've literally invented arguments I've never made, and then tried to attack them.
pastel coyote
well even if they weren't tempered after their ascension, Emet will see it
maiden lodge
You're claiming I said Varis was unwilling, I most certainly did not.
swift kraken
no, i just put them in non-wordy ways
maiden lodge
And no, you cannot claim Varis is unwilling, he fucking tells us he is willing.
viscid monolith
The other option, Soone, is that Fandaniel is magically not tempered
maiden lodge
no, i just put them in non-wordy ways
No you didn't. YOu paraphrased badly, and I am correcting you.
swift kraken
yeah let me just write a 10 hour paragraph to summarise your opinion correctly
anyway
maiden lodge
yeah let me just write a 10 hour paragraph to summarise your opinion correctly
No, just paraphrase correctly.
If I have to follow up and correct you, you didn't.
swift kraken
The other option, Soone, is that Fandaniel is magically not tempered
my original theory is that he has found a way to magically untemper himself
maiden lodge
He has to be tempered first.
You've yet to provide a shred of evidence he's tempered
maiden lodge
And evidence he's not:
HE WAS NOT FUCKING THERE TO BE TEMPERED
viscid monolith
He wouldn't untemper himself Soone that's not how it works. It would have to be external.
swift kraken
considering untempering someone seems to be a future plot point with ga bu
viscid monolith
And it would be against his will
swift kraken
well, im saying that it could be how it works some way or another
maiden lodge
He is different than us, and the unsundered, and we already know one way in which he is different: He's not from the Source
swift kraken
or that fandaniel has found a way
viscid monolith
Fandaniel wouldn't find a way
swift kraken
emet for example has also found a way to do things that didnt necessarily serve zodiark despite being tempered
maiden lodge
We already know he's a Paragon of a Shard
swift kraken
he could have operated within these parameters
viscid monolith
Are you forgetting that the premier feature of being tempered is unquestioning worship of a primal?
rustic heath
maiden lodge
It's speculation based in inventing a proposition wholecloth
severe brook
I could possibly see a reveal that Fandaniel was somehow cured of tempering before we discovered it
however
he wouldn't have been able to find that method himself
as working on your own to undo your own tempering would obviously be going against the tempering itself
maiden lodge
Also, hey. here's some other people who followed the ascians, and were willing to assist in an ardor, without being tempered
viscid monolith
Ya but like just because it's speculation doesn't mean it can contradict everything that been presented to us.
pastel coyote
It's good to see the flame of warlore burning strong here. It's gonna be stronger tomorrow.
maiden lodge
viscid monolith
But it's not something he would seek out
swift kraken
yeah it doesnt have to be by himself necessarily
urban turret
WIFE
gaunt star
Imagine if Fandaniel was actually tempered to the Great King Mog this entire time
maiden lodge
WHo is this boy helping Elidibus and untempered
viscid monolith
Honestly I still think Cylva got off too easy
swift kraken
but him being the, like, precursor to finding a way to untemper someone
would be an interesting way to take his character
urban turret
Cylva is wife don’t be mean
viscid monolith
Would you say Cylva was having second thoughts the entire time she was attempting to obliterate an entire planet and maim another?
maiden lodge
why would the ascians exist and fuck up entire worlds and die for zodiark (igeyo...
I've given 8 examples of Ascian collaborators who are untempered. Can we please admit that your original idea does not hold weight?
maiden lodge
Would you say Cylva was having second thoughts the entire time she was attemptin...
Well, yes, canonically she did have some doubts.
But
you know, determination, etc.
swift kraken
dis ill be real with you: if i answered how i wanted to this would dissolve into another 8 hour argument so im just not going to
viscid monolith
I just hate the trope of slaughtering nameless henchmen but soaring the boss because we know their name.
maiden lodge
dis ill be real with you: if i answered how i wanted to this would dissolve into...
I'll be real with you. You answered a legitimate challenge to the logic, I gave examples, so it'd be prudent to accept that your question was answered sufficiently.
swift kraken
you can say you won the argument if it makes you feel better though
urban turret
I just hate the trope of slaughtering nameless henchmen but soaring the boss bec...
I mean same but that’s not really the case with Cylva
maiden lodge
Well no Lance
viscid monolith
?
urban turret
Yes it is not
maiden lodge
Cause we watched people in the past slaughter nameless henchmen (and a couple anmed)
viscid monolith
When
maiden lodge
Well, being more accurate, the only time we did any 'henchmen' was in the tank role quest, and that was more euthanasia of corrupted victims
urban turret
Thinking back I don’t think there’s actually many cases of them slaughtering nameless henchmen
maiden lodge
And the guy who did it, named -deserved it-
So I am being facetious with the 'in the past' remark
viscid monolith
Wasn't there like a small army of elves or something
maiden lodge
In the tank rolequest?
urban turret
They mean in general
maiden lodge
No, it was Voeburtan knights who were turned
viscid monolith
Oh
urban turret
Yeah there were elves who were with the shadow keeper
maiden lodge
Yeah but we didn't really do those elves, in gameplay
urban turret
Fueled by racist ideology and a sense that they should own Lakeland
viscid monolith
I know but I mean just the trope in literature
maiden lodge
Oh yeah.
viscid monolith
I assumed this was the case with Cylva and her troops
She was the Shadowlord or whatever and had an army of elves
maiden lodge
You know how it is though. Navy does the flyin', infantry does the dyin'