#endgame-lounge

1 messages · Page 331 of 1

daring pine
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i forgot how else i died

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uuh

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tank was missing from lp stack

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aand my partner was dead for orbs

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i dont recall the other 2

loud swift
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RIP

daring pine
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at least 1 of the other ones was my fault

loud swift
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this isnt ultima u cant just solo eat orbs smh

daring pine
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lool

loud swift
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speaking of ultima

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i got my first ex in mentor the other day

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it was ultimas bane

daring pine
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i cba with parsing either my goal for savage was blue across the board

loud swift
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it was just... a normal trial

daring pine
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if i didn't die in my 12s clear i prob would have gotten the blue in p2

loud swift
daring pine
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i fucked my wind tower and got launched like team rocket

loud swift
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but also

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that was pretty late kill

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so

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makes sense it was a low parae

daring pine
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anyway im staticless now

loud swift
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rip

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i need to join a non casual static

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i hate not getting anything done

torn mesa
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PF mines sad

loud swift
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anyways i gotta go walk to the venue

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brb

daring pine
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six seven

image.png
loud swift
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20 minutes until show starts

scarlet lintel
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can u clear q40 with a whm and no pilgrim potions

trim frost
scarlet lintel
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i dont like Deep dungeon, i just wanna clear the boss, i dont wanna farm pilgrim potions for this 😭

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we're at 50% and it just looks like a heal check now

trim frost
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it’s kinda troll to not bring sustaining potions tbh

scarlet lintel
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man

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i dont know if i want to clear this fight anymore then

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but this and savage rokkon are the last 4 man fights my static needs to do so idk

pale urchin
loud nymph
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well it's q40 so

boreal pumice
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i mean thats a solo problem , q40 is a different thing where yeah get regen pots all that free healing

loud nymph
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kinda rules out it being either HoH or EO doesn't it

trim frost
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also u can get pilgrim’s potions from bronze chests

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71+ is a great way to farm for it

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but yeah potsherds would be more effective

boreal pumice
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think its the 50s that are shards

trim frost
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<70 drops potsherds from bronze

boreal pumice
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but either way get pots make everyones life easier

tall field
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Necron adds to me was fine?
The guide said mitigate for tb during solo add phase

Me: what mit, add doesnt even live before it gets to TB

loud swift
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gear moment

rapid whale
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@thin fox

wise magnet
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anyone know if there's a specific discord for like dt extreme farms where you can find groups?

thin fox
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#WASHED

cerulean crown
amber fable
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Party finder exist

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Just use that

wise magnet
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i don't really have the best pf luck

boreal pumice
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and that every discord would die after new exp launches unless they recylce them for the new thing

cerulean crown
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yeah, unfortunately that's the nature of pf. you could try to find a static? but finding one that does ex's only is gonna be tough

rapid whale
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It is what it is

amber fable
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Its extreme anyway

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You have to try hard to enrage it

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And old ex get echo, it is free if you die enough

tall field
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Pf quality does vary

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But its recoverable

pale urchin
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Question, when and if I were be doing Savage, EX and Ultimate, I should always be having Current Raid Food, Ultra Pots and Gemdraught Pots on hand all times?

true beacon
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Healing pots are moot since they share a cd with buff pots

amber fable
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Current food and gemdraughts are enough

true beacon
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Ethers are good if you’re a healer and either progging or your pot cd is off and you have to triage

amber fable
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Thats the only 2 consumable you need, ether if you're healer/caster with rez

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Since you need more mp during prog

pale urchin
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Gemdraught 4 is good enough?
Kinda pricy to keep the stock. Unless it's ok to go for Lv2 or Lv3 ones.

thin fox
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if youre doing ex you dont need pots at all

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if youre doing savage or ultimate you want the newest pots

rain geode
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you dont need them but you should use them just to get the muscle memory imo

pale urchin
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Noted

rapid whale
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npc pots r good for strictly practicing the muscle mem if you want that route

rain geode
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Thats a good shout

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I like to use old pots to keep the muscle memory

pale urchin
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I guess I gotta learn all the Burst Windows of the each Sav/Ulti

dense oxide
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Its just burst at the opener and then every 2 minutes for the vast majority of encounter

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Not a ton to memorize

pale urchin
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OH so it's the 2 minute meta.....

trim frost
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modern encounters are (mostly) designed around the 2 min meta so aside from your own responsibilities there's not much to think about

pale urchin
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I have so much to learn as a Casual Player that is interested in going for Savage & Ultimate raids....

trim frost
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that reads like a linkedin post

worn bluff
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you can also use fireworks to practice potting but they don’t have the same cooldown

pale urchin
robust shoal
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the notion of a predictable 120-second ebb and flow in encounter design is just more bullshit from the devs

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the only thing you can really say is that ultis are clearly designed with a specific number of bursts per phase, and even then there wasn't one clear answer for TOP

amber fable
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What if boss always phase change at burst just to fuck with your rotation

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They have had mechs which do this

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Its also why 3rd floor savage is hp sponge

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They have boss afk during 2m

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More often than not

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So you can burst freely

craggy marsh
robust shoal
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I've always potted opener because drk

trim frost
trim frost
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and that includes normal mode stuff too

torn mesa
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outside of FRU and TOP's final phases, there's almost no real correlation with encounters being designed accounting for 2M

amber fable
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?

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Thats some take

turbid haven
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damn xeno got banned?

trim frost
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more specifically what i mean is like

torn mesa
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you've got fights like M8S, where you get 4 2M burst windows during chill moments, but you're also bursting in places like SC1 on P12S

spice path
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I feel a bit like the final tier may have been designed round the idea that that 2 min meta will be gone for anyone doing previous expac clears lol

trim frost
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something more interesting should be happening while auto attacks go on

turbid haven
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getting banned when new ultimate drops soon must suck

trim frost
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i don't think auto attacks alone should compose a section of the fight even if brief

turbid haven
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But honestly what do you expect to happen when your channel is filled with drama

trim frost
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i mean it's why we have that notorious table of all panda fights starting with auto auto (auto) raidwide

torn mesa
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and even on the previously mentioned point of M8S, there's a 2M window during a mechanic anyways in P2 with Champion's Circuit

dense oxide
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Auto Auto Tankbuster

trim frost
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eric tony my goat

amber fable
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M10 for example .the boss combined hp is 120m? Not much higher than m9 but more often that the boss dont club during 2m or do so very less till end of fight..if they always hugged at 2m they would have had more hp

spice path
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Champ circut was still full uptime tho. Just had to think harder lol

torn mesa
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what savage fight has a lot of downtime though

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the only 1 in recent memory is P8SP2, which you shifted your 2s usage for the last phase to begin with...

trim frost
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p8sp2 question mark

torn mesa
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yeah... about that

amber fable
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But those downtime never comes during burst

torn mesa
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it literally does?

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Like I just said P8SP2, you would wait on the last set

amber fable
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Hc2?

torn mesa
clear plume
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I’m not sure the boss coming targetable again for exactly 22s before a cutscene is proof they don’t design around it, just because the cutscene doesn’t perfectly line it back up with your next 2m

torn mesa
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I'm not saying that

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I'm saying we have as many cases where fights don't naturally align with burst windows

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and/or have mechanics during them

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than moments where bosses are just AFK

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and thus I think the premise of "we design fights around it" comes across as a nothingburger to me

rapid whale
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cactus 2min on picto was great fun on m6s

torn mesa
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even if you just want to use DT, there's so many examples of a window where you're not just hitting a dummy entirely

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I guess I should say, it's not they don't design around it at all. It's more like it's a minor as opposed to major consideration.

clear plume
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Idk I think you’re over focusing on a handful of exceptions and assuming when they say design around it it means boss has to afk, and not that the window can be made stressful due to a mechanic overlaying with it, or sometimes it’s broken as a pattern for like literally one or two times per tier

torn mesa
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they themselves stated at fanfest, that they created cycles of bosses largely doing nothing

clear plume
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Like id never use omega dodges in top as proof they didn’t design it around 2m bc doing the dodges while in a 2m is a part of its difficulty

tall field
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P9S was so slow ngl

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In terms of doing nothing

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Dualspell taking 10 light years to appear

clear plume
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Which they do as a general pattern, but it doesn’t mean it’s the only way they have ever used 2m

torn mesa
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Right, but my point is it doesn't really matter overall

tall field
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And even that you didnt need much movement as a support

rapid whale
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idt noble was saying they dont do it at all but that designing 2min burst with a mechanic instead of striking dummy was a good thing

torn mesa
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you don't really need to consider when a mechanic happens in relation to people's burst

amber fable
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P5s devour for example comes during 2m and you would hold it

rapid whale
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not the negative they tried to make it sound like in dev talk no

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unless im misunderstanding your point @torn mesa

tall field
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The only time i held my odd min burst

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Was tsukoyomi

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Since her adds stand ur ground thing messed it up

torn mesa
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well the way they worded it at fanfest, it was like they were saying : "because of the 2M burst windows, we had to really limit our fight design"

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which I think is BS

clear plume
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I mean he’s literally saying the dev panel was a lie bc they don’t do periods of nothing during 2m from what I gathered

tall field
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So i would hold it then and launch if on adds

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Necron also was dejecting

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You go into solo add phase

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And u cant even finish burst

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Cos add dies

sleek moon
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I've been sharing the same opinion as noble tbh, I don't see where 2 mins were affecting fight design, but maybe there's something im missing

torn mesa
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and worst of all, even if I assume it is true, they themselves created this issue by standardizing buffs

sleek moon
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maybe they meant for ultimates

craggy marsh
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I am struggling to think of many fights where the 2 mins could've affected it beyond Ultimate

torn mesa
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and then somehow thought removing buffs was the approach to go with

tall field
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Also the other question

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Was stormblood the award for best fight design?

torn mesa
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right, and I specifically mentioned, I could maybe see it in how long they setup FRU/TOP's final phases to be, and adjusted DPS checks around that

tall field
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The amount of praisers i see

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Is so much

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For stb bossed

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Yes i agree shinryu is good

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But byakko is bad

amber fable
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Stb bosses were meh

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Its the job really

torn mesa
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you're never going to get a fair answer here

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people who've played since StB hold them in high regard, and there's certainly some nostalgia at play

clear plume
rapid whale
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its like that one key and peele skit, gimme dat ooooold school

amber fable
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Also it was what was good for its time

tall field
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Ivalice was peak too

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Pre nerf orbonne

amber fable
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If you made sb like bosses say byakko

tall field
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Idk how that went

amber fable
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Everyone would clown on se

sleek moon
# tall field But byakko is bad

theres no expansion with universal good bosses, they all have some bad, like even with the stupid ass hitboxes of endwalker bosses we still had a few fun fights

torn mesa
amber fable
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Ew savage had more bad than good

torn mesa
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I'll add the caveat I did mostly consider final floors for savage

amber fable
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Fight wise

torn mesa
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largely because it doesn't matter for early floors to begin with

rapid whale
torn mesa
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and in the case of final floors, it seems pretty evenly split between doing mechanics vs a generic buster/raidwide during 2M windows

sleek moon
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i didnt get too far into this 2 mins topic last time it was here because i realized it was a bit of a headache to map every 2 mins window to every fight

clear plume
torn mesa
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there's way more than 1

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M4S: EE1, Ion Cannon, Chain Lightning

sleek moon
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but I guess we'll see with 8.0 raids what changes about fight design

torn mesa
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M8S: this 1 I agree is just 1, in CC

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M12SP1: Act 2, Curtain Call, final sequence

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M12P2: Rep 2, Idyllic

fiery jewel
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just make the entire fight a 2min burst window ty

sleek moon
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maybe we'll get more "specific players get bound/unable to attack" that you only really see in easier content

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like the 4 getting jailed in ruby weapon

craggy marsh
rapid whale
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i already cry enough when getting wind tower

craggy marsh
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the 2 mins coming up during the defams and stacks in idyllic is nasty depending on your job

torn mesa
fiery jewel
torn mesa
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And that's a good thing.

craggy marsh
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Aaaah gotcha

fiery jewel
clear plume
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Wym with act 2 though? Literally don’t understand the mention.

torn mesa
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you're doing a mechanic during your burst window right

fiery jewel
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if you on Dragoon for example u can't use Stardiver for a few seconds because of bind

torn mesa
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and not just resolving a generic buster/raidwide?

clear plume
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What mechanic do you mean with act 2?

rapid whale
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xdd

clear plume
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Bc I literally don’t know what you mean if you mean cruel coil bc the 2m is before it

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And that’s the act 2 most people call it?

sleek moon
fiery jewel
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I don't think ppl actually want a higher skill ceiling if we draw the line at "movement mechanics shouldn't be during 2min burst window"

torn mesa
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I mean, I've seen people forget which tower to soak

sleek moon
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jump coming off cooldown at the same time 3 towers go off

torn mesa
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Because they were bursting or what not

fiery jewel
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hopefully they just make the entire fight a 2min burst window and some players will thrive

torn mesa
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But like I'll just remove act 2 from the list

sleek moon
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drg jumps, it registers the drg out of the tower

clear plume
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We can’t be calling the boss is standing still doing a 20 second cast that you have to look at your debuffs once during as 2m unfriendly design

fiery jewel
torn mesa
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It doesn't really change my point, that there's a bunch and not just 1 single instance

clear plume
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Like that’s insane levels of stretching to me

fiery jewel
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if they make mechanics harder then we get another TOP and people will complain again

torn mesa
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Like I said, I can remove it but my point largely still stands - it's not just a rare single instance

fiery jewel
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but then if they make gameplay harder more poeple will fail a DPS check and get mad

torn mesa
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We can go back to EW too, and this still holds for like P12S

fiery jewel
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so there is no winning here

torn mesa
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SC1, SC2A, Pangenesis, Caloric 2, etc.

fiery jewel
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Evolved seems like they want to treat entire encounters as a dynamic 2min burst window which is really good.

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If evolved doesn't have extensive seqeunces where just doing combo it's a win for every raider.

robust shoal
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you're gonna be pressing 111 a lot with evolved jobs

fiery jewel
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if that's the case then it's a failure

craggy marsh
fiery jewel
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yep

amber fable
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Positional matter for evolved

clear plume
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Hey now, with bard I’ll get to press 222 half the time!!!

fiery jewel
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how I see Evolved looks like they want to make entire fights feel like a semi burst window with short cooldowns and high APM.

amber fable
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So it will already have more brain usage

torn mesa
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High APM doesn't exist in 14

fiery jewel
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Obviously you will still have these bursts in damage but more consistent dmg and rotation

torn mesa
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High APM in 14 is like as oxymoronic as Jumbo Shrimp

fiery jewel
craggy marsh
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What job has the highest APM? is it MCH?

clear plume
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If anything they’re aiming to flatten apm it looks like

torn mesa
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VPR is highest APM Mango

amber fable
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2.5 gcd isnt going away

fiery jewel
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if they flatten APM they are so out of touch

craggy marsh
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Aaah

fiery jewel
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omgggg

amber fable
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At most you get hypercharge for some jobs

torn mesa
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they will almost certainly flatten APM overall

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lol

robust shoal
fiery jewel
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there's no way

craggy marsh
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yeah I can see VPR

fiery jewel
craggy marsh
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forgot they go turbo speed

fiery jewel
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what is current figth design

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define it

torn mesa
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let me be clear: even if they don't flatten APM in EC

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it will never go to anything significant

fiery jewel
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you press 123(4, 5) combo for 40/60 seconds of a fight.

torn mesa
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with the inherent queueing limitations of this game

fiery jewel
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on most jobs

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2/3 of an encounter you are mostly pressing 123 just bad design

torn mesa
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I agree, but adding APM is not making that more interesting

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at least for FFXIV

fiery jewel
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if they can at least fix that issue it's a win even if the actual burst windows are lower APM

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if they can redistrubte the APM even

torn mesa
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PCT is a pretty interesting job, despite being the lowest APM

fiery jewel
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yes

torn mesa
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In contrast, I would argue the opposite for VPR

fiery jewel
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VPR is fake APM

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and Dragoon

torn mesa
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My point here is APM does not make a job interesting

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And has little to no correlation

fiery jewel
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it's how distribute the APM

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right now APM distributed very poorly on almost ever job becuase of the burst window design

torn mesa
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it's not really distribution either. it's whether your rotation actually has an element of planning and flexibility around it.

craggy marsh
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i've never once thought APM is what made jobs boring or not boring

fiery jewel
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how is it not distribution

amber fable
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Distribute apm..isnt it same across a burst cycle

fiery jewel
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when you are literally pressing 123 only for 2/3 of an encounter

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and then your actual burst window isn't even that complicated on most jobs

amber fable
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Oh you mean more pressing for filler

fiery jewel
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40 / 60

torn mesa
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let alone in FFXIV

fiery jewel
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20 / 60 burst

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loop

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2min u get like two extra buttons

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loop again

amber fable
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Well evo wont have long cd burst

torn mesa
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yes, the point is it's not a matter of APM altogether

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it's a matter of the cycle being brainless to maintain and plays itself

stable valley
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Viper feels very disorienting

fiery jewel
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only way to fix that is by raising APM

clear plume
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Brd is the second highest apm job and most people literally just can’t play it at a high level tbqh

torn mesa
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no?

fiery jewel
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lowering cooldowns is a must

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remove 120s cooldowns and game is fixed

stable valley
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Im trying to level.it up and its giving me a headache

amber fable
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People say monk got braindead but it plays same as ew minus you dont get moments where you lost leaden fist buff now

tall field
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Also EC evolved may focus more on mechanical execution, boss positioning imo for optimal dps

fiery jewel
tall field
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Else ur melees will hate u more

fiery jewel
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they afraid to skill check players

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there a reason why so many players afraid of moving away from this 2min burst meta

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lol

clear plume
stable valley
tall field
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They r trying to bridge that

clear plume
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Which is the actual things people complained about

amber fable
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Dot yeah

tall field
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Midcore raiding

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If alliance progression path is a difficulty alliance

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Patb

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AgaIn BIG IF

stable valley
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Dawntrail is definitely a skill check

amber fable
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Demolish was strongest basic combo gcd with its dot and now it exist

fiery jewel
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no chance

tall field
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Well .0 was

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.1 and onwards

fiery jewel
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only skll chek fight in teh entrie epxansion was m11s prob

tall field
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Not rly

fiery jewel
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and m11s was literally just can you optimize uptime on melee

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uptime on healer

tall field
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In casual atleast

fiery jewel
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that's all it asked

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ig "Caster Uptime" also like these jobs don't have infinite mobility options atp

tall field
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Also ex3 and 4 still r the hardest?

stable valley
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By skill check I mean the game got wah less forgiving on messing up mechanics

rapid whale
torn mesa
fiery jewel
#

wdym

torn mesa
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you can get away with way more in DT for messing up mechanics

fiery jewel
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Dawntrail to be honest it's gotten too easy

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because they didn't make DPS checks harder

tall field
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Noooo tbut forummmmsss /s

fiery jewel
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which was the way to correct wya to compensate

tall field
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(DT too hard)

fiery jewel
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FRU should've had the hardest DPS checks in the game probably

amber fable
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Idk high end was same as before

fiery jewel
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considering very lenient

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like u can prog alot

amber fable
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It has less body checks

pale gale
amber fable
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In general

clear plume
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We literally had pf get hard filtered this tier by dps check

fiery jewel
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11s

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this is the one exception

torn mesa
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you can't say a fight has less body checks and then say it's the same level of forgiveness

stable valley
fiery jewel
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.

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are you fr

stable valley
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This isnt a complaint btw

fiery jewel
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Anabaseios

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TOP

tall field
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P8S:

fiery jewel
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mane u trippin

amber fable
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Big hitbox= more forgiving?

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Lol

tall field
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P8S was a pf wall and even now

amber fable
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Lmao even

tall field
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Unsync

fiery jewel
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Endwalker prob had the best fight design for actual hardcore raiders

tall field
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Pf struggles at p8s

stable valley
fiery jewel
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because the ydon't care if they wipe

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oh

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the ppl who care if they wipe are the ones who get overly mad

torn mesa
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comparing hitboxes to consequences of messing up mechanics

stable valley
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The raids are fairly hard

fiery jewel
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but if u raid need to expect that wiping is normal evne if the players are really good

torn mesa
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is like the most irrelevant thing to bring up

stable valley
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For casual

pale gale
fiery jewel
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hmmm

torn mesa
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yeah if you're saying normal mode content

fiery jewel
torn mesa
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I'll actually agree to some degree that DT was harder

tall field
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Normal mode raid

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M7N

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M8N

fiery jewel
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DT normal content

sleek moon
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with story content it, depends

fiery jewel
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idk

tall field
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Thats all

fiery jewel
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it depends right

tall field
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I found moderately harder

fiery jewel
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I think EW-DT normal content have a similar difficulty

stable valley
craggy marsh
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M8N gets people still

amber fable
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Dt casual content is harder than ew but its like saying 10 is bigger than 8

craggy marsh
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it's fun

sleek moon
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getting golbez and zeromus in roulettes prob have more deaths than anything not mh trial in dt

amber fable
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Sure its bigger

fiery jewel
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DT dungeon bosses have been a joke since 7.0

amber fable
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But not much bigger

fiery jewel
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besides the executioner

tall field
fiery jewel
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DT normal raids are fine

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some of the bosses are pretty mid but some are good

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ironically sugar riot is pretty mid it didn't even have the adds phase

rapid whale
fiery jewel
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LHW had the best normals imo

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M2N and M4N >>>

tall field
#

M2N

stable valley
tall field
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Thats ut

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It

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3 was barely any

clear plume
# rapid whale

I have that as a sticker but my nitro ran out (I had to buy it on a second account to stream Skyrim)

tall field
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1 waspaissaowo

stable valley
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Also what's the context behind that meme?

fiery jewel
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def think DTnormal content can get harder

tall field
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I liked 7 for toughness and 11 for the theme

clear plume
#

On a separate note do u wanna see my Skyrim bapple uwucarby

fiery jewel
#

but idk if that's the direction they are taking

#

DT alliance raids are still easy like Endwalker

rapid whale
fiery jewel
#

besides promathia that one was legit

amber fable
#

Dt ally raid are million times better than ew

#

No contest

tall field
#

Ofc

#

Jueno the best

stable valley
tall field
#

Easily

fiery jewel
#

idk

amber fable
#

Idk man

#

Ew ally raid are ct tier

fiery jewel
#

both are easy

#

Ivalice the goat still

amber fable
#

Casual content is easy

tall field
amber fable
#

Other news water is wet

tall field
#

Forget ct

fiery jewel
#

there difference between easy and too easy

stable valley
#

I say they stick with the direction of dungeons while increasing job skill expression

tall field
#

Even ct can wipe people

#

When did ew ars wipe

fiery jewel
#

hard and too hard also but no XIV fight has ever been too hard it's a lie

rapid whale
clear plume
#

Uwu is too hard

amber fable
#

Its a subjective experience

clear plume
#

Can never do the fight again

amber fable
#

Idk man

fiery jewel
#

I like the DT ones more tho they were more fun

stable valley
#

Question: how do yku even get into high end content?

fiery jewel
#

some of the MOTR bosses were embarssing it had lower lows

amber fable
#

Doing normal raid on blu is million times harder than doing savage

fiery jewel
tall field
#

DT dgs peaked in 4 dungeons

fiery jewel
#

imo

amber fable
#

Cuz people are morons

tall field
#

Stray, tender, meso, and yuwei

amber fable
#

Who dunno what the job do

tall field
#

Ok also skydeep

fiery jewel
#

respect it

tall field
#

Fair

sleek moon
clear plume
stable valley
tall field
#

Stray still is the hardest

fiery jewel
#

ye

#

the expectation is you were supposed to know the mechs prob

#

so if u join blind makes sense you get kicked

craggy marsh
#

Tbf the first boss of Stray does most of the heavy lifting

sleek moon
#

only join parties you actually qualify for, like a clear party is not the same as fresh learning, or x mechanic prog

hot rose
#

Dont you just love it when u get kicked from a party after causing one singluar wipe 🥰🥰🥰

amber fable
#

Or explicitly say its a blind prog

fiery jewel
#

what did PF say @stable valley

amber fable
hot rose
tall field
hot rose
#

Bc so many of those other ppl were dying to dumb sh** lol

craggy marsh
#

what was the content

hot rose
#

FRU

stable valley
fiery jewel
#

FRU PF is just toxic

hot rose
#

Also hi cotank 🫶 lmao

craggy marsh
fiery jewel
#

probably because the fight is actually pretty easy so the expectation is you should be progging and clearing consistently

sleek moon
#

fru was when passport checking hit critical point

fiery jewel
#

that's why Phase 1 needs to be one of the harder phases

stable valley
#

Everyone just does the raids unsynched now which just misses the point

fiery jewel
#

they just need to filter people immediately instead of setting them up for failure

rapid whale
hot rose
rapid whale
#

dont u remember those UNDER 1% ONLY listings

fiery jewel
#

FRU biggest crime was making phase 1 an extreme trial

#

and phase 5

amber fable
#

Get those clears

fiery jewel
#

I don't blame them

#

people try to be nice but FRU PF specifically it's just pretty toxic sometimes

amber fable
#

It dont gurantee better success

fiery jewel
#

ofc it does

amber fable
#

Nah

fiery jewel
#

would you rather have someone with 1 clear or like ~15

#

on paper I'm choosing the person with 15 clears unless they have abysmal parse like actual 0

amber fable
#

I mean yes probability wise 15 is better

#

But it isnt guranteed still

fiery jewel
#

but I get what you saying

rapid whale
#

ONLY JOIN IF YOU ARENT PERMANENTLY GREY - CHECKING

#

meanwhile their median is a 10

fiery jewel
#

bigmclarge

#

lol

stable valley
#

I guess i should just stick to parties that wanna learn

clear plume
fiery jewel
sleek moon
#

must be consistently green+

stable valley
#

That or stick to unsynched parties

fiery jewel
amber fable
#

People when they learn keepin uptime allows you to have deaths

clear plume
#

My ulti median is grey

fiery jewel
#

idk I still think a issue with 11 was kinda the Job balance

#

they need to do a better job with that

#

some jobs were really bad on 7.4 release

#

but if you bring a decent comp you could clear like

#

multiple DMG down or 1 death week one

#

in PF

clear plume
#

Gonna ask you to stop replying with ping though, it’s filling my inbox and I prefer to keep those relevant to conversations I need to come back to

fiery jewel
#

mb

#

idk why it toggles back on

#

is there a setting

stable valley
#

How differently does high end content play

fiery jewel
#

just individual for the person prob

fiery jewel
#

main difference is the DPS check

sleek moon
#

dont forget that savage was delayed and 11 might have been re-tweaked

fiery jewel
#

but the mechs are different

amber fable
fiery jewel
#

I don't think ppl should be complaining about 11 dps check

amber fable
#

Thats the major difference

fiery jewel
#

we need more dps checks like 11

#

it will help players get better

amber fable
#

Vs casual

#

Failing mechs wipe you a lot

#

In high end

stable valley
#

Casual needs more opportunities to wipe outside of duty supports

amber fable
#

Casual just gives a vuln

fiery jewel
#

if they release the 11 DPS check with the current Job balance ppl would've never complained honestly

#

because rn they are cooking besides MCH

rapid whale
fiery jewel
#

that's fine though

rapid whale
#

and even then a lot of groups were killing it with like, less than 3 gcd remaining until enrage

fiery jewel
#

I mean it's Savage

rapid whale
#

yea im just letting them know

fiery jewel
#

will say this tho

rapid whale
#

wasnt a "this is too tight" comment at all

fiery jewel
#

yeah

amber fable
#

Playing relatively clean

#

Keeping uptime

fiery jewel
#

making third floor DPS checks harder than fourth floor is the dumbest design choice in Savage

amber fable
#

And not getting damage down

fiery jewel
#

idk what is the logic there

rapid whale
#

i think this was just a special case because of idyllic

stable valley
sleek moon
fiery jewel
#

they should just stop with the special cases and normalize it honestly

torn mesa
#

M11S did not have a harder check than M12S

stable valley
#

One of my favorite eden raids

fiery jewel
#

like even 3S had a harder check than 4S

torn mesa
#

that's survivor bias

fiery jewel
#

idk what they are doing

#

with that

quick verge
#

oh my goodness

#

worst takes ive ever seen

rapid whale
#

everyone scatter biscuit is hee

amber fable
#

M11 is mathematically lower dps requirement than 12

sleek moon
#

ok whats your great take

amber fable
fiery jewel
amber fable
#

Still lower

quick verge
#

m11 is extremely lenient

fiery jewel
#

M11S dps check is harder

#

there are reasons why I can tell you abt it

#

but would rather not rant rn

#

just look at fflogs

craggy marsh
#

do those reasons include split arena and stampede

amber fable
#

It feels so cuz m11 is 11 min long

#

M12 p1 is 7

#

So yeah

fiery jewel
#

basically you naturally do way less damage in 11

amber fable
#

It feels harder due to length

clear plume
#

Wow is fun it’s true

fiery jewel
#

like ~2k less

#

for every player

#

comapred to both 12 fights

quick verge
#

you can bleed gcds during arena split and the check is still piss

fiery jewel
#

that's just elitist

#

and trust me I want the hardest checks possible

#

that's why 12 dps check was a joke

tall field
#

Wasnt the trend of

torn mesa
#

this is survivor bias. i.e., people who do terrible damage don't get through M11S

fiery jewel
#

if I was designing the game

#

tbh with you bro

quick verge
tall field
#

How tf is 2nd floor savages HARDER than 3rd

torn mesa
#

but if those people skipped straight to 12, they also wouldn't meet the check there

tall field
#

M6s, p10s

fiery jewel
#

I would make every DPS check around equivalent to the hardest relative floor fight

tall field
#

Harder than m7 or p11

rapid whale
fiery jewel
#

they are just more annoying

sleek moon
#

different fights are designed by different people, sometimes difficulty doesnt hit the same way

fiery jewel
#

I'm fine with lower floor being arguably mechanically harder than a higher floor tbh

#

the issue here is the DPS check

amber fable
#

M6s was mechanically harder than m7 week 1

sleek moon
#

its not like they push 1 button to set a difficulty level

fiery jewel
#

DPS check on a lower floor should never be harder than higher floor

amber fable
#

And then as you got gear

rapid whale
#

diff ppl also find diff aspects of the game difficult

fiery jewel
#

it's just bad design and disrepsect to world first tbh

#

lol

amber fable
#

It became piss easy

fiery jewel
#

most ppl in PF are not getting to M12S w1

#

they never experienced those checks

#

still they were easy

rapid whale
#

i did that shit was ass

amber fable
#

What If I just joined a m12 party

#

Week 1

fiery jewel
#

M12S P1 check was not hard even

#

it was literally just comp dependent

amber fable
#

Without clearing early floors

fiery jewel
#

bring a Reaper or SMn you are fucked

#

or mch

#

bring a DRG or NIN u are gaming

tall field
#

Thats nothing compared to FRU pfs

#

Play picto

#

Or kicked

rapid whale
fiery jewel
#

I forgot what the early logs were for 12 p1

tall field
#

Heck pf locking pictos in pre 7.2

craggy marsh
rapid whale
#

in week 1 *

amber fable
tall field
#

For fru pf

fiery jewel
#

but it was just the jobs that got the extra burst before enrage

#

were much better

#

like DRG for example u could literally do all ur burst before 7:08

tall field
#

And now everyone is worried

fiery jewel
#

if u played the job properly

tall field
#

Will new tank be such an outlier

#

The picto of tanks is born

torn mesa
#

if you played your job properly

fiery jewel
#

they should make this TOP 2.0

#

we are ready bro

torn mesa
#

the last 1M in M12P1 is irrelevant

fiery jewel
#

🙏

#

TOP 2.0000

craggy marsh
fiery jewel
#

I think they should try to make this Ultimate really hard considering it's a X.5 patch ultimate

#

so it needs to have more longevity

#

basically next ULtimate will not release for even longer I believe

tall field
#

Wdym this tank has their version of tempera grassa
Has 3 dashes
Has the best invuln
Has pld tier mitigation

fiery jewel
#

gap between a usual x.1 and x.3 Ultimate

#

that's like 8 months no?

#

this time it's ~12 months until next Ultimate

clear plume
#

As compared to the .3 ultimate, which is normally 2 years before the next one

fiery jewel
#

that's a good point

#

ngl

#

I ain't consider that lmao

craggy marsh
#

Next ult will probably be around this time next year if they want to release it during the .1

quick verge
#

next ult isnt coming until 8.5 cause of the next pandemic

fiery jewel
#

imagine

craggy marsh
tall field
#

Sorry due to rising costs

#

We cant afford new ult

#

In 8.1

#

So 8.3 it is

craggy marsh
sleek moon
fiery jewel
#

coping for three Ultimate but that's not happening

craggy marsh
#

three ultimates would be too much

tall field
#

We spent all our costs to design midcore raids

rapid whale
#

Do you guys think they'll continue the trend of fru with one easier ultimate and one harder per expansion

fiery jewel
#

please no

craggy marsh
#

didn't they say each ult takes about 1 year of dev time or close to it?

torn mesa
#

do we even know this ultimate will be harder Bapple

fiery jewel
#

honestly we don't even know rn

rapid whale
fiery jewel
#

it's literally just the pacing

sleek moon
#

Would you believe anything Yoshida says about difficulty

clear plume
#

I hope they do, bc a current approachable ultimate is good, but I don’t have faith when they said world first should be quick for this next one

fiery jewel
#

that's the main difficulty of an Ultiamte

#

honest to god it's the pacing

sleek moon
#

You'll have to wait and see

craggy marsh
#

not every ult needs to be harder than the last one

tall field
#

Ozma is the only one i can somewhat attest to true test of ur reflexes fight

amber fable
#

Eating auto = wipe

fiery jewel
#

tbf

torn mesa
fiery jewel
#

the guy who is making UMAD

#

he make TEA and TOP I think

rapid whale
#

We're going to need a new difficulty tier beyond ultimate at this rate for hard core players to be happy lol

amber fable
#

There's your hardest ult

fiery jewel
#

I def think this Ultimate at worst it's like DSR level

tall field
#

If Ozma made UMAD

clear plume
#

Yeah, they said “world first should be quick, but our goal is it will keep most players busy until the expansion launch” more or less

amber fable
#

Need perfect dodge rng or you wipe

tall field
#

Maybe

fiery jewel
#

but I can see it being TOP level somehow someway

clear plume
#

Something like that

tall field
#

Idk if ozma designed m12s

fiery jewel
#

DSR level is the bare minimum

sleek moon
fiery jewel
#

TOP level is what the gamers want

craggy marsh
amber fable
#

I would rather they made more chaotic

#

But that's just me

fiery jewel
#

They can still make an Ultimate hard for world first

tall field
#

Make something in 24man

fiery jewel
#

but make it more chill in PF

tall field
#

Between chaotic and normal

fiery jewel
#

it's just how they pace a fight

tall field
#

Cos chaotic

fiery jewel
#

first phase should never be easiest just awful design

sleek moon
#

Tfw they say chaotic raids and it was "a" chaotic raid

fiery jewel
#

first phase should be like medium difficulty

sleek moon
#

They say variant dungeons and it was "a" variant dungeon

amber fable
tall field
amber fable
#

They dont have manpower for it

#

Chaotic was well received

tall field
#

Variant advanced was the nugget

fiery jewel
#

2 chaotic next expac needs to be locked in

#

there is no way right

amber fable
#

They literally dont have people

fiery jewel
#

fml

amber fable
#

Lack of talent in general

sleek moon
# tall field Poor feedback

I'm pretty sure content like this is well planned ahead of time, they had no plans to do more than 1 this expansion

craggy marsh
#

This reminds me of the sweatiest players in Destiny 2 (lmao rip bozo) who cried the game was too easy. When yeah no shit the game is going to be easy when you have no job and sit on your ass all day playing a video game

amber fable
#

Is why you have 1 guy making all evo jobs

tall field
#

I love chaotic

fiery jewel
tall field
#

But i cant convince my friejds to run it

fiery jewel
#

that's the point of Ultimate they are designing it for the best players

tall field
#

Since yea

#

Painge

fiery jewel
#

if you clear Savage that shouldn't mean you should be able to clear Ultiamte

#

it's completely different difficulty

tall field
#

I am talkinf from an MSQ andy pov

#

For chaotic

fiery jewel
#

not saying design it for like top 0.1% but top 1% is bare minimum

#

FRU is designed for like the top 5%

tall field
#

Cos msq andy CAN ENTER chaotic

#

Since thats all u needed

#

Finish msq

craggy marsh
amber fable
#

People clear ult and fail extremes. Are they really best players?

fiery jewel
#

no

tall field
#

Boom i am ready to do chaotic

#

Gets owned

fiery jewel
#

it's a combination of what makes a good raider

#

DPS def part of it tho

#

but if you can't do the mechanics you won't even see enrage

tall field
#

Grey parse= shit player

fiery jewel
#

no because I see awful ppl parsing orange

tall field
#

When the story behind it is more important

fiery jewel
#

just look at bigmclarge

craggy marsh
fiery jewel
#

and ppl pay for parse

amber fable
#

What is best is so loose anyway..you can grey parse and be world first depending on situation

#

Idk man

rapid whale
fiery jewel
#

but should they design an Ultimate for like top 1% of players who deal legit damage

#

yeah probably

#

but idk

rapid whale
#

Purple I agree but actual gray and somehow being good is a nah

fiery jewel
#

99% percentile DPS check balance would be insane

clear plume
#

Something people forget when they spout shit like “why design stuff around the people who play this game all day” is that the guides gear lists and math the community uses comes from people in said community, you have to support them or else you run into issues long term. How many MMOs have died because it’s players leave because they’ve just done everything and nothing new is exciting, it’s content creators move to other games and bring their communities with them, and it all spirals to the game appearing dead

fiery jewel
#

can you imagine

craggy marsh
#

If someone is gray then I won't say they're good

#

Blue is average and fine

fiery jewel
#

ima be real

craggy marsh
#

Purple and above they have a general grasp on what to do

fiery jewel
#

I don't think this is even a hot take

tall field
fiery jewel
#

at bare minimum UMAD needs to have like purple savage DPS check equivalent so 75% percentile+

craggy marsh
tall field
#

^

craggy marsh
#

everyone gets gray at some point but the conistency of it is what matters

fiery jewel
#

still means someone on a lower pecentile can pass hte check but someone needs to play better than to compensate

rapid whale
clear plume
#

More likely, you don’t know how to save yourself in those cases either

tall field
clear plume
#

Cockroaching is a skill

fiery jewel
#

Main difference between Savage and Ultimate is someone can genuinely parse like grey and clear easily in Savage but Ultimate it's way way harder to achieve that.

spice path
#

Parse can be so dependant on things outside of actually knowing your rotation. Just having a purple or orange isn't a good indicator of a good player.

tall field
#

Alliance raid parse purple

#

So i am good?

#

There is the other thing

amber fable
#

Xivanalysis is way more useful than just parse

fiery jewel
amber fable
#

But that requires more iq from players

fiery jewel
#

I hate the word parse I ain't mean it like that

amber fable
#

To understand it

rapid whale
#

The old adage of, "parses are shit at identifying good players, but good at identifying shit players" holds true here imo

fiery jewel
#

if there was a metric for like

#

ethical DPS

#

it's that metric

#

but there isn't that because of killtime and shit

amber fable
#

I rather have meter which shows uptimr

#

Rather than dps

craggy marsh
#

it's always 2 way

amber fable
#

And if you broke your combo

tall field
#

Gear, KT, purposely sandbagging at times, and mechs

amber fable
#

That is infinitely more useful

quick verge
#

besides that one fight

amber fable
#

To understand what mistake are you making

fiery jewel
#

yeah

clear plume
#

I’m sorry but if you’re not purpling it is not bc people sandbagging

fiery jewel
#

tbf I think ppl

tall field
#

Oh ye

clear plume
#

There are dozens of people who do that per job

sleek moon
#

What's ethical dps

fiery jewel
#

they clown on the FRU dps checks when they were still like

clear plume
#

Not a statistically relevant number

fiery jewel
#

they were harder than most Savage at least

tall field
#

Also parsing matters by content yea

fiery jewel
#

just that job balance was so dogass

#

in 7.1

tall field
#

Like then one says

#

Look at my AR parses

rapid whale
#

Picto had to be the most egregious balance in the history of ff

fiery jewel
#

no job adjustments in 7.11 was insanity tbh lol

#

like 7.51 needs adjustments

#

100%

amber fable
#

Grey parse in savage but purple in ult or vice versa

quick verge
fiery jewel
#

no machinist adjustments that job is locked out

clear plume
fiery jewel
#

no doubt

quick verge
#

it doesnt exist in xiv

rapid whale
sleek moon
#

Oh

clear plume
#

Sb ninja if only for dps

fiery jewel
#

kefka has some downtime stuff also

quick verge
#

i think

rapid whale
#

Not doubting I'm just unaware

quick verge
#

sb pld is more egregious

clear plume
#

I’d say 4.2 ast also is a huge one

fiery jewel
#

because MNK was literally competing with PCT on-content

#

like the balance was awful even beyond PCT

#

AST also

rapid whale
#

Wat

fiery jewel
#

MNK it was kinda close

#

but PCT was still better obv

rapid whale
#

A 25 percentile picto did more DMG than 100 parse 2nd place job in fru on latch

clear plume
#

It did 40% more dps than any other healer bc they tried reducing its casts as a qol feature but it removed caster tax and the other healers didn’t have similar

fiery jewel
#

lemme check again

rapid whale
tall field
#

DRK in 7.0 was

clear plume
#

Hw warrior had very good damage, and a perma 10% dmg down on boss, which was broken as shit.

tall field
#

7.05 fixed its dps

clear plume
#

Aggro wasn’t a concern for it

tall field
#

Thank god

sleek moon
#

God all these tiers are blending together already, I can't remember shit

clear plume
#

Very good job, very strong

fiery jewel
#

if they don't buff Machinist in 7.51 I have no faith that we are getting hard DPS checks

craggy marsh
#

HW was certainly a time

fiery jewel
#

that's basically what I'm thinking

#

Machinist and VPR probably the only Jobs rn preventing them from giving hard dps checks

spice path
#

Do you think the 2min meta being gone will change parsing after 8.0? Like less need to have specific kt and less sandbagging?

tall field
#

7.1 is the tank patch though

fiery jewel
#

absolutely

rapid whale
#

Iirc mch is 3k DPS behind atm which is nuts

quick verge
tall field
#

DrK got buffed a lot

quick verge
#

you still want to kill after your burst

tall field
#

PLD can dash

quick verge
#

so,

tall field
#

In uwu and cob

clear plume
amber fable
#

Thats all

rapid whale
#

IDK I could still see dnc and astro having rdps

fiery jewel
fiery jewel
amber fable
#

Gotta see what they do to jobs

quick verge
#

they're gonna remove rdps and have it work like aug evoker

#

amen

amber fable
#

But if party buffs are gone

clear plume
#

And sb ninja had trick attack as a party wide 10% damage debuff still with 25% uptime, it had it in hw too but stormblood had most jobs get stronger 1m bursts to line up with it

amber fable
#

Then rdps also goes

tall field
#

Whats rdps nowM

#

?

#

Cdps?

#

And ndps

#

What about those 2

fiery jewel
#

I don't think rDPS is gone

clear plume
#

Sb/hw drg single handedly caused double prange meta bc it had perma 10% damage up for brd/mch

fiery jewel
#

I don't think any metric is gone I think people are overexaggerating

#

tbh

amber fable
#

?

fiery jewel
#

remove dmg buffs from DNC like what

clear plume
#

Like there are a lot of broken jobs from that era

amber fable
#

Its literally how it is calculated

fiery jewel
#

as long as dmg buffs exist every metric will still exist

amber fable
#

Bruh

robust shoal
#

sb brd/mch were just strong

amber fable
#

Learn maths

fiery jewel
#

I mean

#

literally as long as dmg buffs exist every metric exists

robust shoal
#

drg piercing debuff was only 5%

fiery jewel
#

all the 3 other metrics are because of dmg buffs

#

if there are no dmg buffs it's just nDPS

tall field
#

If every job is selfish in EC

fiery jewel
#

well actually

#

I guess pots exist

robust shoal
#

but you wanted brd and/or mch in every pt and you needed a drg to attract them

fiery jewel
#

so aDPS exists

tall field
#

Then yea just adps

amber fable
#

Pot isnt rdps

fiery jewel
#

well acutally

#

pot is nDPS

#

I think

amber fable
#

Pot is same as your self buff

robust shoal
#

pots factor into rdps

fiery jewel
#

so ye literally just nDPS if no buffs anymore

fiery jewel
amber fable
#

Potted 2m

fiery jewel
#

well yeah

amber fable
#

Vs non pot

tall field
#

4 no?

fiery jewel
#

but that's only because of the existence of dmg buffs

#

if Job specific dmg buffs are removed it's just nDPS

amber fable
#

Otherwise its self buff

fiery jewel
#

because pot it still counts for nDPS

amber fable
#

Same as sam/drk etc damage buff

robust shoal
# fiery jewel wym?

I mean when you pot it makes you do more damage which counts for your rdps

fiery jewel
#

yes

#

but the only reason rDPS exists it because of dmg buff

#

there is no difference between BLM nDPS or rDPS.

amber fable
#

Party damage buff*

fiery jewel
#

there is difference between BLM nDPS and aDPS yes

#

but that's because of other raidbuffs given to BLM

#

Just nDPS is the most skill expression probably but removing all forms of dmg buffs from brd, dnc, ast goes against the identity.

tall field
#

They can provide other ways

#

Bard can give expedient

#

A shield

fiery jewel
#

haste needs to make a comeback

#

I'm prayin

#

🙏

clear plume
#

Ah was it already 5% in sb? I know it was 10% in hw

fiery jewel
#

imagine if DNC and AST have haste buffs

#

ppl won't cry anymore because of the 2min meta gone

fiery jewel
sleek moon
#

Haste can still mess your burst lol

fiery jewel
#

but I think completley removing dmg buffs that's prob too far

clear plume
#

The 2m meta didn’t exist when ast last had a haste buff what the fuck are you talking about

amber fable
#

If single target buff exist in 8.0 then rdps will still exist

fiery jewel
#

if any dmg buff exist then all 3 metrics still exist prob

trim frost
#

buff deez

amber fable
#

Haste will be massive if its partywide

quick verge
clear plume
#

But people don’t like when the buttons they press pull to pull happen at different timings for why haste buff got removed, doesn’t work well with ffxiv fight design where things are very scripted

fiery jewel
#

AST should defintely have Haste it has time control powers.

#

to some extent

quick verge
#

enhanced arrow is top 3 buttons to ever exist in xiv