endgame-lounge

[amber fable]

Not in pug 🙂

[robust shoal]

then perish

[nocturne escarp]

but yeah, idk how to feel about this MT/OT stuff yet. I'm cautiously optimist. I think having the lines be a bit stricter could be a nice change

Like yeah, some tanks are better at one role than the other, but the differenece isn't really that big

[amber fable]

Evolved is way too different...i dunno how will they balance it

[thin fox]

my assumption is they just decided has shield = mt, no shield = ot lol

can we have the fucking slowmode disabled btw

[shy obsidian]

wait i didn't watch the evolved test portion of the stream what do you mean Glare is CASTLESS now

[nocturne escarp]

WHM is cast free now

[shy obsidian]

oh jesus christ bard looks fun too

[nocturne escarp]

Based attitude ngl. Shields are just too cool to be OTs

[thin fox]

does that mean we're not getting tank swaps anymore?

[robust shoal]

not a fan of the mt/ot split, tbd on what other jobs get but the return of shield swipe alone doesn't feel like enough sauce to limit PF like that (it doesn't matter what's viable, it matters what people think is viable)

[shy obsidian]

although if dancer isn't the big party buffer when evolved then what's da poiint

[terse zodiac]

bard is the big party buffer and it looks like it still gets party buff that never drops

[shy obsidian]

ehhh it would be a waste if the offtank didn't get SOME main tank responsibilities

[nocturne escarp]

I think the MT/OT split could be a nice change of pace. Allow tanks to be different

[terse zodiac]

dancer probably keeps the standard finish buff on one person for the whole fight

[robust shoal]

Voke/shirk still exist
OT still have invulns, which you're going to want to get good use out of
Two-target fights are also possibly on the menu

[shy obsidian]

surely us dancers will be more utility-based....

[tulip wraith]

unless MT generates more aggro, its gonna be weird getting both tanks to 1 and 2 on enmity while keeping 1 of them at 1 with no stance

[brisk scarab]

Anyone else still get full body chills from the evercold announcement

[somber forge]

Dancer was never the big party buffer. That’s Bard. DNC has 1 group buff and the rest is for your partner.

[worldly grotto]

Thinking about it now would the 2 minute meta being done make haste actually viable in this game?

Would something like skill speed/spell speed melds be an option too since you wouldn’t need to worry about your gcds desyncing?

[robust shoal]

Depends how much damage is tied up in cooldowns vs simply progressing your rotation.

SkS/SpS hyperscale (they're nonlinear, taking 0.01s off of 2.30 is a bigger relative increase than 2.50 but it takes the same amount of substats), so speed builds are viable if most of your damage comes from just pressing your GCDs

[worldly grotto]

Honestly if it allows for even that much in terms of variation and choice I’m all for whatever 8.0 brings

[nocturne escarp]

These months between fanfests are going to be torture. I need more info on this

[worldly grotto]

A whole melding system and all you use it for is just crit/det/dh is just lame

[shy obsidian]

This is basically the (second) biggest risk this game is taking, huh

[tulip wraith]

my one and only hope for evolved doesnt make the jobs feel too easy, which so far everything but whm seems to be the case

[worldly grotto]

Also evolved crafters and gatherers when Yoshi 🤔

[round hazel]

!slowmode 0

[storm frost]

Success!

Slowmode Updated to 0, Kupo!

[robust shoal]

[round hazel]

[versed haven]

Just as an advisory for the Main Tank/Off Tank debate: NOBODY IS TRYING TO FORCE YOU INTO PLAYING WARRIOR AS AN OFF-TANK OR PLD AS AN MAIN-TANK.

Their kits will simply just be more incentivizing of doing certain things related to that role, rather than locked into one of them. Think shield healers and regular healers

[amber fable]

Evolve literally is making a role difference

[nocturne escarp]

That's not what PF is going to say

[robust shoal]

NOBODY IS TRYING TO FORCE YOU INTO PLAYING WARRIOR AS AN OFF-TANK OR PLD AS AN MAIN-TANK.

PF sure will

[amber fable]

Reborn will be same as now

[terse zodiac]

in endgame 100% people are gonna force it lol

you're giving up damage as a maintank if you play off

[nocturne escarp]

They even said it'll make the most difference in endgame content

[amber fable]

And new jobs are evolve exclusive

So

Reborn will phase out too

Eventually

[robust shoal]

people dgaf rn in savage but if you go into ulti you're already expected to play MT or OT depending on the comp

[nocturne escarp]

I'm MTing regardless, but PF is stupid as fuck

[versed haven]

Yes, and Evolve isn't forcing them to DIRECTLY MT/OT. You aren't going to be told by the game design that you shouldn't MT as a Warrior

[amber fable]

I mean slide said otherwise

[versed haven]

PF, however,,,,,

[terse zodiac]

they literally said it would be very advantageous to run the correct role

[amber fable]

Ot job is to be more supportive

Mt is aggro taker

[versed haven]

Advantageous, but not required

[amber fable]

We dunno whole thing

[terse zodiac]

not required but throwing if you're not so whats the point

[amber fable]

Cant say for certain

Need more info

[versed haven]

I don't think you're going to be a detriment if you're running a Savage with two DRKs <\3

[robust shoal]

Except for the extra 2 minutes on lb3

[amber fable]

2x whm is detriment

[terse zodiac]

double jobs in general is a huge detriment especially in prog

[versed haven]

I unironically don't think the changes are going to matter THAT much

[amber fable]

It looks it wont

[versed haven]

But then again, I'm no savage player

[amber fable]

But since numbers aren't same as reborn

One mode doing 3% better will obviously be locked

[shy obsidian]

endgame players love taking every advantage they can get, no matter how small I suppose

[versed haven]

I highkey think that the main tank warrior players are going to be fine

[amber fable]

2% difference are enough to scream xyz job is "op"

[terse zodiac]

3% might sound small but its huge for meeting checks

[robust shoal]

Respectfully, if you're not a savage player then you might not be in the best position to inform savage/ulti players on how a balance change is going to affect their culture

[amber fable]

Basically this

[versed haven]

True, but that's mostly why it's an opinion and not a direct declaration. After all, we know equally as much as to what the MT/OT changes directly imply

[amber fable]

Need more info

As said before

Still wip

[nocturne escarp]

maybe? We don't really know how they're changing the OT tanks to fit into that role better

[limpid edge]

thy got 9 months to clarify/fix
i hope they dont shoehorn PLD into MT and WAR OT etc

[terse zodiac]

if enrage is at 8 minutes, 3% bonus damage finishes the fight 14 seconds faster so plenty of leeway

[limpid edge]

lameBRIX

[robust shoal]

3% damage is really really big in prog

[versed haven]

Besides, I'm more interested in how the lack of the 2-minute burst window culture will affect endgame content

[robust shoal]

like if you ever clean 3% enrage

it's just despairge

[amber fable]

Well 8.0 isnt too far atleast

[terse zodiac]

for now each of the jobs looks like it has a 1m burst except pld which will have an off minute and 2m

[nocturne escarp]

It's certainly a strange choice so far. WAR as an OT is a headscratcher and it'd kinda be lame if they kill its self healing for it

[amber fable]

They can give war rep 2

To comepnsate for it

Kit will change to accommodate those changes

[versed haven]

--This all said

[loud nymph]

I read the MT/OT thing as being more about vibes and theme rather than mechanics

[versed haven]

While I'm fine with the MT/OT changes, the fact that Warrior is an off-tank is a weird choice

[amber fable]

I am interested in 8.0 now

[limpid edge]

mr prime bout to get his house egged by support mains

[versed haven]

^, the most I think they're going to do is just make marginal changes to some of the kits rather than have them lean one way or another

[robust shoal]

MT (or at least PLD) seem to be incentivized by having shield swipe-esque actions
Yet to be seen how OT are incentivized not to hold aggro

Supposedly OT will have weaker personal defensives which feels like a slap in the face for DRK which has arguably the best rn

[nocturne escarp]

Maybe? Once again, we have a single slide of info and the small glimpse of PLD we saw

oops

forgot to reply

[terse zodiac]

i wouldn't say the glimpse of pld was small, we saw every button

[nocturne escarp]

Maybe? Once again, we have a single slide of info and the small glimpse of PLD we saw

[terse zodiac]

unless a lot changes, which is obviously possible

[versed haven]

Weaker personal defenses for what's supposed to be a trade of multiple buttons for higher potencies would be a bit flabbergasting

Hrm.

[amber fable]

How much does se change between final release and fanfest anyway

[versed haven]

Actually, you're right; what WILL off-tanks get to make them stand out as a benefit?????

[amber fable]

Not like they cant change post exapc release

[robust shoal]

We've never really seen full kits at fanfest before

[versed haven]

Right, and I doubt we'll see more tomorrow

[terse zodiac]

hell we got massive changes from the media tour to dawntrail

[robust shoal]

Supposedly OT will get more party/buddy mit

but PLD still had wings

idr if it still had veil

[terse zodiac]

wings veil and cover

[nocturne escarp]

sure we saw the buttons, but I'm talking in regards to the MT/OT thing.

[amber fable]

2x ot for more party mit

Curious what about damage profile

[versed haven]

Wait

How many of the tanks are becoming OT????

[nocturne escarp]

All but PLD and new tank

They gave PLD counters, which fits with their MT definition

[versed haven]

That's-

[amber fable]

Ot will have rep/partywide

[terse zodiac]

strictly for evolved mode tho so even if they're weaker as MT there, you can use reborn mode maybe

[amber fable]

Mt more personal cds

I am guessing

[nocturne escarp]

Did PLD have rep in the showcase?

I don't remember if it was there

[terse zodiac]

yes

[versed haven]

Yeah

[amber fable]

Maybe another rep

For ot

2x rep stack

[limpid edge]

missed oppurtunity for WAR as MT cuz they're like berserkers that take damage and counter

and lotso healing

[amber fable]

Healing is irrelevant

[terse zodiac]

their 40% is literally a counter

[amber fable]

Till it is

[mossy eagle]

Yeah WAR is really the odd one out there

[nocturne escarp]

No shield, so they're not allowed to be the main character

[limpid edge]

lame

[versed haven]

Dude, why IS war there????

[robust shoal]

truly a mystery

[versed haven]

Iirc, they're really selfish?

[terse zodiac]

actions to lower enemy damage is probably the big thing

[mossy eagle]

SE really said "only one of the two original tanks can be main character"

[terse zodiac]

get an extra gcd to add mit or something

[amber fable]

All tanks already do above

[visual geyser]

9 months is a long time bro lol

[robust shoal]

currently war isn't great as ot because nascent sucks and equil gets no value + possible damnation procs

[versed haven]

Yeah no, the only problem with this system is that Warrior isn't a main tank; Their playstyle involves them being the greediest player in the room

[amber fable]

Gnb is more greedy

[mossy eagle]

Maybe 5th tank will be called "not berserker totally an original job you guys" and will take some of WAR's identity? Idk

[nocturne escarp]

WAR has like 1 party mit and 1 buddy mit, the rest is all personal iirc

[limpid edge]

make them friggin occult berserker literally. Take more damage , counter more damage

it's in the archetype for godsake

SE fumbled this one bad

but they got time

[mossy eagle]

I'm sure we'll see a lot of evolution

[shy obsidian]

ba dum tss

[amber fable]

Its like first announcement anyway and its not done

[nocturne escarp]

We have 0 info on WAR, so I wouldn't say they've fumbled it yet

[limpid edge]

i dont even play warrior, but i would like to see warrior be WARRIOR that just takes big dmg

[amber fable]

Dont take this showcase as final

[versed haven]

This is really a matter of "we don't have enough information, let them cook, but also what the fuck"

[limpid edge]

we overreacting andies up in this house

[amber fable]

It got people talking

Work successful

[shy obsidian]

anyone even changing up their goober's appearances with the new customization options?

[mossy eagle]

Reminder that the first fanfest also gave us gems like "Shadowbringers will be about fighting the garlean empire"

[limpid edge]

dawntrail we'll be fighting our allies

[mossy eagle]

Lots of things can change both in story and gameplay

[versed haven]

😭 I WISH I WAS THERE

[nocturne escarp]

I mean we did. For about 10 minutes

[mossy eagle]

See also: "wow expedient looks dumb"

(I'm still a wee bit worried about new WHM and PLD but is what it is)

[shy obsidian]

maybe this is the time I finally learn how to bard

[versed haven]

That said, despite the warrior controversy, the evolved system is something I'm going to cave to. I think job complexity comes from the unique circumstances each one has, rather than how many buttons they obtain

That ALSO said, WHM players, how do you feel about the showcase of the job????

[limpid edge]

not impressed by whm showcase. They made one of the easiest jobs even easier for? Accessibility?

[robust shoal]

I haven't seen anyone that's happy with WHM showcase

[limpid edge]

whm showcase was by far biggest fumble

[terse zodiac]

i dont mind the whm changes theyre whatever

[limpid edge]

and i actually like playin whm for a change of pace

[versed haven]

I thought the instant casts were neat, but I literally knew nothing outside of that about WHM

[limpid edge]

i like simple jobs, but not when they're far simpler

[terse zodiac]

no dot is weird choice but other than that its pretty much similar other than instacast glares

[versed haven]

Apparently, their new gameplay style is healing to do damage?

Or was that-always the case

[nocturne escarp]

healing builds up bar, more bar = more damage

[terse zodiac]

in the footage it doesn't give enough damage to offset the gcd heals but thats just a numbers thing

[limpid edge]

not a fan of taking away the decision to gcd heal vs damage

[terse zodiac]

that was never a thing since misery was added

[tight wing]

yo hear me out, for the eva collab

[versed haven]

Well, isn't the idea mostly just healing to do damage?

[tight wing]

there should be a balmung exclusive hospital quest

[stuck bloom]

Call it GNB 2 then XD

[tight wing]

gunshielder

[stuck bloom]

XD OR DRK 3

Everyone ripping off WAR

[tulip wraith]

i like how cure is just 1 button now

[terse zodiac]

now you get effect of misery for all healing in combat not just lilys but you're still limited to only 3 per 30 seconds or you're losing damage

[tulip wraith]

no more cure 1 and cure 2, just high cure

[tight wing]

thank god

[versed haven]

Besides, I don't think there were other ways of exploring White Mage, from a design standpoint:

From what I get, the highlight of WHM was its duality of being pure unbridled damage vs. pure healing, and the evolved mode changes incentivize that duality more

[limpid edge]

BRING BACK FREE CURE xd

[terse zodiac]

no more setting up a misery in between dungeon pulls is sadge

but old white mage still exists so just play that if you dont like the new one

[versed haven]

Right. And who's really to say that the reborn modes will be shafted out?

[stuck bloom]

How to make WHM interesting... Seraph Strike every minute... that is all.

[limpid edge]

i dont have faith SE can balance both reborn and evolve modes well so it's gonna be one or the other predominantly played whatever does more damage

[nocturne escarp]

Just delete WHM at this point

[versed haven]

They kind of hammered that down when they talked about the potency and GCD differences

[limpid edge]

and then community figures out better rotations to make one better than the other

[nocturne escarp]

Because it feels very transitional. Like Reborn is supposed to feel the same as jobs currently are, but they're also getting rid of the 2m meta so they won't play the same

It feels like they're already starting to balance for Evolved and Reborn will be left in the dust

[stuck bloom]

I don't think SE has really thought about that that much... "skill expression" loses to "optimal damage" every time.

[versed haven]

In my case, skill expression wins the race

I don't think I can consider reborn after seeing what evolved will do

[limpid edge]

optimal damage occupies the minds of an FF14 raider, as long as it's not insanely more difficult to execute . Just the perception of potentially missing out on damage will get people rattled

[nocturne escarp]

If Evolved does even 1% better, PF will lock out Reborn

It's just how it is

[versed haven]

ESPECIALLY after Yoshi P just dropped the idea of boss designs that aren't bound to the 2-minute burst window. This means they have the capacity to make SO many unique things

I don't want it to happen, but if Reborn gets shafted down the line, you'll see no tears from my funny corneas

[terse zodiac]

evolved is cool but they need to expand it over time

[stuck bloom]

I think Reborn will be better in some contexts, and Evolved in others. Mostly I think Reborn will work better with SOME supports.

[versed haven]

I somewhat disagree to an extent

It really depends on what you mean by "expand"

[limpid edge]

i cant stop thinkin bout the evolve game when i read evolve

[versed haven]

Because if Evolve results in jobs getting as many buttons as Reborn currently has, there's literally no point

[terse zodiac]

they said at 50 the core rotations are in place and after that just minor changes and additional effects happen, that will get just as stale as our current rotations after a while

[versed haven]

I'm of the opinion that Reborn mode has caused a huge normalization of "busier jobs=more complex"

[stuck bloom]

I don't think they need that many buttons, but limiting them to 10 buttons for skill expression (once you minus role actions, and the one button rotation) makes things fairly difficult. Especially with tanks, and even healers.

[mossy eagle]

They can always add new abilities or options in future expansions and retroactively make them available to level 50

[versed haven]

I don't think the rotations will need to expand, so as long the content they engage with is unique

There are games that made more with less, and have succeeded

[mossy eagle]

Again the number of buttons matters less to me than the complexity and fun of the rotation

[stuck bloom]

Because they want them to be 16 buttons or less for the kit. The largest we saw being PLD at 17 buttons, with PLD being one of the largest current kits.

[versed haven]

Exactly

And as long as the complexity's consistent, then I'm fine with a strictly 1 and a half/two hotbar job design

At that point, what matters is the content we engage with

[stuck bloom]

It's just once you slap on mitigations and gapcloser and the like, you're down to 5 buttons to make the job have its expression.

[terse zodiac]

thats kinda what im saying tho like bard looked very good right? but in essence it just boils down to the current summoner rotation, it's not complex at all

[mossy eagle]

That's probably one reason why they're splitting OT/MT. If there's one to two mitigations that can tie back to the damage rotation, then that gives tanks wiggle room

[versed haven]

I don't necessarily see too much of a problem with this, considering that this community made do with expansions such as Stormblood and HW. You can keep 10-16 buttons and still have your content be diverse and replayable

[terse zodiac]

dot management is gone its just press a song, use the legos, use a dash when you want, burst at the end

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, Bard basically looked like current SMN, and DRG was like a weird version of current RPR with some DRG flair.

[mossy eagle]

Stormblood and HW still had quite a few buttons on their release. They were just pruned later

[versed haven]

But doesn't each song have a new defensive property to them, as well?

Incentivizing you to actually choose them based on circumstance?

[clear plume]

not really

[versed haven]

Why's that

[terse zodiac]

yeah but itll just boil down to use barrier song before raidwides or use movement song before movement. that's cool and all but its not particularly complex

[mossy eagle]

I would say "maybe" but given that encounters are being made compatible with reborn mode, I doubt they will be substantial enough to matter. That might change in 9.0

I definitely think BRD would benefit from some additional plates to spin, like dots or RNG procs

[clear plume]

tldr is unless all prange have similar choices, its gonna be use movement song as much as possible bc movement speed is broken, barrier and regen just wont make or break even early prog

if every prange has similar options on similar timer it can be designed around more

[stuck bloom]

Those expansions had more buttons than you're thinking. 5 from cross class, plus another 5 from job actions to hit 50, 4 from 1, 15, 30, 50, and before we've even looked at variable levels we see 14 on an ARR hotbar.

[versed haven]

I think the complexity lies within playing a certain way, rather than multi-managing certain things. Yes, jobs have been simplified, but they've been given quite the adaptable identity enough to have their uses and niches shine

[terse zodiac]

you cant really just use the movement song much as possible, you have to use all 3 before going back to one you used and the movement speed is only 7 seconds

[versed haven]

Similar timers are kind of what got us here into this state in the first place

[mossy eagle]

I mean with stronger job identity, the copium is that people that want plate spin jobs will get a few

Others can play WHM

[versed haven]

Hm

[mossy eagle]

Yeah the level 60 rotation we have now is not the end game rotation that was in HW, for instance

[terse zodiac]

being able to stack the bard songs is also weird

[clear plume]

with what we saw about bard, there isnt much there to draw you to the class if another just does more damage from an opti perspective, unless the regen and shield are way stronger than theyve historically given to dps jobs

[mossy eagle]

There's been a ton of pruned abilities, reworked jobs, etc. throughout this game's life time

[versed haven]

Not quite an impossibility

[terse zodiac]

but nice for multiple bards in one party ig

[stuck bloom]

That truly is the hope, but it's also quite doubtful. They genuinely think the answer to people being bored with pressing glare over and over and over is to make glare change to another action after pressing it once... but still pressing the glare button over and over and over.

[clear plume]

like a regen once per minute on a semi fluid timer isnt a draw unless its strong enough to save a healer gcd, and that healer gcd makes up for bard vs another prange damage.

[mossy eagle]

I mean that was the joke there haha I just didn't state it well

[clear plume]

and i dont have faith that that balance will happen

[mossy eagle]

WHM is still simple

[clear plume]

so thats why the regen isnt much to me

and why other prange also need to be support based for it to help

[versed haven]

I don't think that was their solution to the problem you mentioned. It's just the fact that the glare spam and other aspects weren't complex in the first place, just as the 1-2-3 spams weren't

[mossy eagle]

I mean opti players will always just pick the best job regardless, I'd rather they design for identity instead

[clear plume]

the shield could be useful, but again it depends on strength

[mossy eagle]

I do think "the skill ceiling won't be high enough" is a valid criticism though

[clear plume]

if the support isnt needed, it kind of hurts identity.

[mossy eagle]

Since that's critiquing within a job's design

[terse zodiac]

whatever value they're working with right now

[clear plume]

like you want your regen the class was designed around, to feel impactful

otherwise it doesnt really help identity

at least to me

[mossy eagle]

I mean that's the tricky balance and why we lost identity in the first place. Make something TOO important and then it's an instant pick

[clear plume]

and values for video dont matter bc the mages dot will not be 5s long

[mossy eagle]

Make it too limp and no one cares

[errant bane]

Did they actually 100% say they are getting rid of tomes? I remember them joking about how tomes are endless but from checked the official sources they are just mentioning the new seasonal change, nothing about removing tomes and now I'm confused

[clear plume]

so i throw everything in there out personally

[versed haven]

Like, when I think of the team's decision in removing the unique button count, I think of how many GCDs are kind of pointless in the grand complexity of jobs outside of a select few

[mossy eagle]

I don't think anything's been said officially but it definitely appears to be the replacement system based off of context

We will know more later

[terse zodiac]

the dots being short is very possible since the dots expiring is what gave heartbreak stacks

[cerulean crown]

Please Look Forward To It

[clear plume]

yeah but 5s specifically means that uh

it would take them changing how dots tick overall

[stuck bloom]

Really? They literally said "Finally, we recognise that a lot of White Mages were using the same basic attack spells over and over again, so to alleviate that monotony we're tweaking certain spells to have different effects the first, and then second times you cast them in a row" then showed Glare III becoming High Glare then repeat.

[terse zodiac]

im pretty sure they were 3 seconds not 5

[errant bane]

Okay so i will just stay confused with my entire fc and the nn adamantly demanding they said tomes are gone lmao

[limpid edge]

we go from pressing 1 to pressing 1 with different hotkey pictures!

[clear plume]

well, a 3 second dot literally is nothing so that would be awful for identity

[versed haven]

--Okay, yeah, fair, when you quote it that way, you're not wrong in finding fault

[terse zodiac]

agreed its weird to just remove that part of bard

[clear plume]

like im expecting that to be longer for sure, and they just dont have a value yet

[limpid edge]

timers and cooldowns were prob just placeholders for showcase

[terse zodiac]

def possible

[clear plume]

we are like 8 months away from media tour

nothing we saw value wise is relevant

take the basic design and thats it

[limpid edge]

can mr happy tell yoship again that high ping sucks to play ?

[mossy eagle]

WHM having alternating effects on cast could be interesting if it made me actively think ahead towards prepping certain GCD heals, but I don't think they'll make the job that many brain cells

[clear plume]

i hope they dont get rid of queen for mch though, but i expect they will

[versed haven]

But even then, isn't whm's gameplay loop taking a more of a provocative healer role so their damage mechanic begins to matter more?

Is it really the same glare spam when you're engaging with it differently?

[clear plume]

bc they WILL be putting pvp snipe into the kit

and tools will stay

[torn kindle]

Oh my god I’d love snipe in PVE

PLS

[terse zodiac]

whm 1-2 combo they just completely missed the point, but the new button is an upgrade to misery in my book, but they also removed the dot

[limpid edge]

it feels nice having a big shot from mch

[thin tartan]

sex

[amber fable]

Dots were irrelavnt anyway

[mossy eagle]

If encounters still require little healing, then it's a bit of a moot point

[torn kindle]

Yeah it’s just visual fluff to make a ‘fake’ 1-2 combo

[clear plume]

id personally like mch if they made it an even slower gcd and really made things impactful

[mossy eagle]

Clearly you've never seen me play healer

[clear plume]

if going tool route

make them CHUNKY

[versed haven]

But we also don't know how redesigned encounters will play out

[clear plume]

swap between chunky tools and a fast overheat

[amber fable]

Job kit will exist by 50

[mossy eagle]

We don't, but there's still the whole back catalogue of content

[amber fable]

With evolved kit

[clear plume]

and that will be a win for me

[amber fable]

So I am excited for that

[amber fable]

Old shit will be same

[mossy eagle]

This has always been the issue with any sort of healer redesign (and tank to a much less extent). DPS jobs are agnostic to damage output so redesigns for them are no big deal

[amber fable]

Doing evolved kit legacy ult will be fun

[sweet fjord]

ok so is reborn mode still gonna be like focused on

or is it just gonna be there and then removed

[amber fable]

Reborn is what we have now

New jobs will only have evolved

[terse zodiac]

they said itll be updated still

[mossy eagle]

They said reborn will get a few more moves as is tradition for expansion

[versed haven]

I think that so as long as there's someone to heal, and if the heal isn't based on the general health bar chipped off, who's to say that just even the smallest chip of damage to a player, especially a tank, won't give the job some leeway to max out their damage potential? ESPECIALLY in the endgame content you all participate in?

[clear plume]

every hc player i talk to is expecting reborn to perform worse based on what they said, and not fit design of fights

[mossy eagle]

My guess is that reborn will get axed around 9.0

[amber fable]

Seems like reborn will eventually be removed

[sweet fjord]

so i have to switch to evolve

great

[clear plume]

maybe meta reborn comps will be good, but most players are kissing it goodbye

[sweet fjord]

so now i need to completely rethink what jobs i main

[clear plume]

no reason to play reborn viper unless its actually just stronger then evolved

[amber fable]

Its basically combofied reborn

[torn kindle]

Yeah if future jobs onward only have Evolved, they’re definitely going to remove Reborn an expac or two from now

[errant bane]

Remembering how the were about getting rid of belts makes me doubt they are getting rid of tomes now because they dont say anything about tomes on the twitter

[mossy eagle]

It depends on how they tune it I guess but in current savage there are literal minutes of no incoming damage sometimes

[torn kindle]

Because keeping and balancing two kits per job is a mean feat

[stuck bloom]

Maybe, but the thing they changed was now instead of every minute you heal towards Misery, every 30s you heal toward Holy Sanctuary, both refunding the GCD's you spent healing. The only major change I saw that will impact this is they don't have Regen.

[sweet fjord]

i guess drg is not my main anymore, it seems way too busy and active rn

i liked drg cause it did basically nothing outside of 1 and 2 minute bursts

[mossy eagle]

I mean I guess? Depends on what you liked about the old jobs

[versed haven]

Hrm, another case of "we'll have to see"

[clear plume]

I like the whm gauge change

[mossy eagle]

I would wait until you have job in hand in order to judge

Rather than a preview 8 months out

[clear plume]

i hate the whm design, but that change is strictly good imo

[versed haven]

Same here, based off the information I've been given

[stuck bloom]

I know but this is why I'm shaky on their support design. They don't give themselves a lot of wiggle room.

[versed haven]

I know, and it bothers me that we can't settle this conversation with actual demonstration

[torn kindle]

Yeah I wish they showed off reborn vs evolved on the stream

[clear plume]

you have so much more flexibility in how to spend those gcds, whether its medica 3, or cure 4, or medica 1, they all have uses that werent used this tier bc its not the lily aoe heal

expack*

[mossy eagle]

I mean this is always how NA fanfest is lmao. Sorry to say but please look forward to it

We get little teases

[versed haven]

They did, but clearly not enough. I have a paragraph of what they changed for our current jobs

[mossy eagle]

If anything this is way more than what we get for NA fanfest

[clear plume]

id personally like if they find a way to make mana costs relevant for healers in evolved though

[mossy eagle]

We usually don't have any ability info until way way way later. Evolve mode just bucked the trend a bit

[mossy eagle]

Best I can do is two charges of lucid dreaming

[versed haven]

That said, my concern/anticipation for evolved mode isn't in any particular role. Rather, it's two jobs with the opposite problems: summoner and scholar.

[clear plume]

remove mana from damaging spells, and make you choose when to use heals based on cost would be something id like

[versed haven]

How they approach those jobs with evolved is what my peepers are focused on

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, I would just like to know we'd see more of this specific system next fanfest, even if it's just with SCH or something else, and not likely have to wait until the media tour

[mossy eagle]

Well enjoy waiting a few months lol

But I doubt you're alone

[versed haven]

Because they can give summoner the complexity it needs without being clunky, and give scholar the proper optimization without ridding it of its adaptability

[sweet fjord]

bro im going back to SMN

[terse zodiac]

red mage will be interesting to see how they simplify it

[clear plume]

the least fun part of healing is you not getting to do anything bc you ressed 3 people, instead make it so if you raise 3 people you can still dps, but cant use heals as a punishment

[versed haven]

But how?

[mossy eagle]

My copium is that we will get around 4 jobs of evolved at every fanfest

[versed haven]

WAIT

[mossy eagle]

And the last jobs sprinkled out during media tour

[versed haven]

WE DIDN'T GET TO SEE A M. RANGED SHOWCASED

[stuck bloom]

You have only 1 button, but it moves around your hotbars at random.

[mossy eagle]

You have only 1 button

[torn kindle]

Yeah I have potential dread over blm

[mortal garnet]

trust the plan

[versed haven]

What? Why?

[mossy eagle]

All casts are instant please look forward to it

[torn kindle]

That ^

[stuck bloom]

I just think the caster is held off because they're still figuring out what to do with caster raise

[versed haven]

THAT'S NOT HOW THAT'S GOING TO WORK JUST BECAUSE WHM GOT IT AND WHM STILL HAS HARD GCD CASTS, CALM DOWN <\333333333

[torn kindle]

Also I like how BLM winds up into a big explosion with Flare Star, and speeding up the job any further makes each spell feel less powerful

[versed haven]

People are forgetting the fact that the priority of evolved is job INDIVIDUALISM, not gentrification to be like WHM if they're a caster <\3

[sweet fjord]

so basically every job is completely different, the things i loved about some jobs are just gone, the things i hated are also gone, i dont know what's what anymore

[stuck bloom]

BLM evolved... 3 buttons... Surecast.. Swiftcast... and a 20s long GCD.

[terse zodiac]

blm evolved will likely be very very different to what we have now

[mossy eagle]

I mean yes and I'm sorry but something had to give

[sweet fjord]

yeah

i guess

[mossy eagle]

Disappointment with job rotations is hitting an all time high

That's why they nuked the two minute from high orbit

And drastically changed everything else as well

[sweet fjord]

i hope there will be at least ONE job i can still play easily and not have to be too busy

[versed haven]

Amico, most of the people don't even know if reborn is being shafted out as a guarantee. Stop thinking about abandoning your favorite job so as long as Reborn mode stays as a mechanic

[mossy eagle]

I mean they stated that one of the design goals with evolved is that the skill floor would decrease due to less buttons

I doubt casual players will get left behind

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, but they made their own problem when they removed 1 minute buffs. Like, even in 6.0, Trick Attack still gave SOME variation and skill expression for SOME jobs.

[mossy eagle]

WHM is a great example of that. It's even easier now

[versed haven]

Honestly, save the buffs for the buff-centric jobs

If every class has to be distinct, so be it

[mossy eagle]

If I had to guess, DNC and AST will keep buffs but they'll only be single target

[stuck bloom]

Oh, I just mean that then you could still gauge spend on the 1m, and lining that up was a thing for a bunch of jobs.

[mossy eagle]

Or if there is a party buff, it's somehow designed in such a way that it's nearly impossible to plan party burst around

[versed haven]

Yeah, true. I'm sure we'll still have something like that

[mossy eagle]

That used to be the case for a lot of jobs and timers in StB/ShB

[stuck bloom]

Bard still has a 10s buff

It's on a 1m

[versed haven]

That said, if you ask me, BLM's evolved version is going to go back to its roots as a hard-caster with a focus on movement limitation complexity

[stuck bloom]

Cause you do the 3 songs (20s cooldown between charges) then you get Radiant Finish.

[terse zodiac]

bard looks like it has an infinite buff too? just lasts the whole combat?

[mossy eagle]

Given how the boss design team has us running laps around the arena usually, I doubt they would enjoy any job with limited mobility

[stuck bloom]

I still want MCH to have limited mobility.

[versed haven]

That's why I think triplecast is going to stay

[stuck bloom]

GIVE ME MY WALKING CASTS (like PvP)

[thin fox]

please enjoy black mage with no cast times

[mossy eagle]

Plot twist only BRD has cast times now

[clear plume]

I think blm probably will keep cast times, and that their design will be "if a job is bad, just dont bring it to the fight" tbqh

thats how you handle jobs being unique

[versed haven]

WHM STILL HAS CAST TIMES IT'S JUST IN THE PARTS THAT ACTUALLY MATTER STOP USING IT AS A BENCHMARK FOR AN M. DPS HARDCASTER RRAGGGH

[clear plume]

is when their uniqueness is bad, you let them be bad

[thin fox]

oh ok i wont hit glare since it doesnt matter

my job is to heal

[terse zodiac]

not even just heals, whm has (not much but) 2 dps casts a minute

[versed haven]

Girl I'll put breadcrumbs in your carpeting and steal your $70 vacuum

[mossy eagle]

I feel like the armory removing alt job gearing requirements makes this more likely

[clear plume]

well, materia is a big thing to give up

[mossy eagle]

Way less likely to feel dog shit about a particular job being bad for a fight if YoshiP has made it free to switch up

[thin fox]

i still cannot believe they actually made white mage easier. i did not think it was possible.

[clear plume]

but alt jobbing between whm/ast for a fight is certainly easier to swallow

[versed haven]

It's more dynamic, at least

[mossy eagle]

My b I kept forgetting the dot

[stuck bloom]

Honestly the alt job gearing requirements being gone still seems a little weird.

[thin fox]

I think alt job gear will still matter for stuff like on content ultimate

[versed haven]

Rather than having a DoT, its gameplay loop revolves around healing to maximize damage. I can sit with that, then just the idea of having button bloat

Actually

[mossy eagle]

Evolved WHM feels like it was made for WoW with whack a mole health bars

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, that's kind of what I mean, it still matters just enough.

[mossy eagle]

Not FFXIV where we never take damage until a huge spike

[thin fox]

it could be something if 8.0 has WAY more healing reqs

but I doubt it

[mossy eagle]

And again even then, pre 8.0 content will feel not great

[versed haven]

Considering that they're making the ability cap level 50, it's not unlikely that they're willing to backtrack to rebalance

[thin fox]

i mean for new content

[versed haven]

But that's not either here or there. We simply don't know how things will play out

[versed haven]

In what world is someone not taking ANY damage in new content

[mossy eagle]

Uh I won't say never but that would be an insane amount of encounters to retune damage for

[thin fox]

most of it

buddy this is not a high damage game

[versed haven]

Any???

Like, a single autoattack????

[mossy eagle]

Don't be obtuse, you know what they mean

[thin fox]

you do extremely little healing in ff14 compared to basically every mmo ever

[versed haven]

I'M NOT BEING OBTUSE THOUGH I'M BEING AS DIRECT AS CAN BE

[clear plume]

for peoples reference, assuming best case scenario (you can wear lower ilvl gear and it syncs up to the stats of 790 fully, with choice of substats) the current mch set would deal 94.3% of normal damage

[mossy eagle]

Okay well here you go then. Two attacks, a raidwide, and then a long mechanic. That's what they mean, and if your tank is geared, the autos won't even chip through a short mit

[clear plume]

which is certainly enough to matter for ultimate, but certainly not reclears

[versed haven]

I'm just saying, if the fulfillment requirement of WHM's heal is that any damage is taken, then it'll have no problem fulfilling its gameplay loop as a proactive healer that can maximize its damage via the meter

[thin fox]

my point is not "will there be literally any damage to meet the technical requirements of the ability" i mean that having healers be more focused on healing through gcds could be interesting if the game's content starts to focus more on actually outputting damage

[sweet fjord]

ugh

[versed haven]

Not necessarily something I disagree on

[mossy eagle]

I mean that's kind of my point. The points in the fight where you can meet that requirement are currently quite minimal, and less so if your party is good

[sweet fjord]

it honestly feels like jobs are more complicated, the 2 minute burst was kinda simple and clicked with my head well

[terse zodiac]

theres no requirements of the ability its just that you'll be refunded some lost damage when you cast a heal

[mossy eagle]

Like oh I divine veiled that raidwide, looks like we're still above 100% health

[terse zodiac]

every heal they casted in combat gave a stack

[versed haven]

Wait a moment

[mossy eagle]

I'm sorry for your loss sincerely

[sweet fjord]

i guess thats why im scared

[sweet fjord]

now i have to be way more active and adjust all the time

[versed haven]

Aren't tanks losing some of their mits and sustains?

[terse zodiac]

once you get your hands on it youll see these are like extremely simplified jobs

[mossy eagle]

I mean I guess you know how StB ASTs feel

[sweet fjord]

drg seems harder

[terse zodiac]

its definitely not

[mossy eagle]

A few but we still have party wide mit, shields, and healing

Oh I used wings and then my AOE heal, looks like the party is at full health

[versed haven]

You say simplified but they were already kind of that in reborCOUGHCOUGHCOUGH

[mossy eagle]

Hard is a relative term.

[sweet fjord]

the issue is with sky high people are gonna tell me NOT to use it on cooldown and save it for boss attacks or whatever

[thin fox]

I've said this opinion a few times in the channel but tanks should have their mit cut by like 50-70%

[versed haven]

It's also a subjective one

[mossy eagle]

Certain things are easier for some people than others and vice versa

[sweet fjord]

well hopefully i can play picto now

[mossy eagle]

Nobody in casual content will care

[terse zodiac]

sky high doesn't seem to have a timer so yeah just save it for mit unless you're about to get stardiver again

[versed haven]

Nobody's going to do that, and if they do, that's not your responsibility

[terse zodiac]

but even then theres so much flexibility because jumps have 3 stacks and theres no 2 minute to burst in

[versed haven]

You're stressing a bit too much on some unconfirmed information that may as well not come to light until 3 years later

Play and enjoy the reborn gameplay style while it's still there, rather than headaching on if your main being irreversibly changed when not even SE said so themselves

[clear plume]

I ultimately wouldnt be shocked if bard was a casual friendly job tho, the class is really popular with novice players and then it picks up with like, super hc players that go to meta

everything in between those 2 prefer mch and dnc

[terse zodiac]

literally everything subject to change but what they showed were very simple flexible rotations it would be hard to mess up

[clear plume]

as a general trend

[untold oyster]

im excited for 8.0

[versed haven]

As Idyllic said, difficulty is subjective. Some users struggle with picking some stuff up we don't

And honestly, just because DRG got less buttons doesn't make it directly more simple but that's just subjectivity I guess

[clear plume]

well, everybody here is a ffxiv player, so we can base ease around the requirements of current ffxiv jobs

[mossy eagle]

I do think the parsing and opti crowd will feel like there's a bit to be desired based on what we've seen

[clear plume]

like thats a bar everybody here understands

[mossy eagle]

I think most other players will be happy

[clear plume]

this is exactly what I said to my wow guild basically

[untold oyster]

not the parsing crowd

[versed haven]

I'm most other players, but I understand that there's a concern that these changes won't address your problems with lategame content, such as the lack of meaningful damage

[mossy eagle]

My point moreso is that some players may feel that juggling a 36 button rotation is difficult even if it's static or filler->burst, but a 16 button job is manageable even if it's more active the whole time

[untold oyster]

murdering job complexity lol

[mossy eagle]

Some players struggle with APM, others with dots, etc.

[untold oyster]

as if jobs are complex rn

[versed haven]

Was it really job complexity

[clear plume]

current bard at a high level is pretty complex yes, its why you see lots of damage variance at a high level

[versed haven]

Sure, it was busy, but it sure didn't require too much of a skill ceiling

[clear plume]

most players cannot do what I do in 10

[stuck bloom]

Clear?

[mossy eagle]

A few select jobs currently have some interesting optimization

[versed haven]

TRUE

[mossy eagle]

I don't think that overrides the prevailing sentiment that most of the time, jobs are not that fun to play

[versed haven]

In your eyes, is that a matter of your rotation or understanding mechs?

Hm.

[clear plume]

maintaining uneven dot timers on multiple bosses at once and finding positions to cleave both with aoe skills fight long

[mossy eagle]

Rotation

[untold oyster]

one job is somewhat complex in a sea of 21 jobs

[versed haven]

No, no

I see where they're coming from

[clear plume]

sorry, i only have the jobs they showed off to base it on?

[mossy eagle]

It's more or less where nonstandard BLM was in EW

A bit of a black sheep

[clear plume]

especially one that im very expeienced in

[mossy eagle]

Again, there is definitely a subset of players that will rightfully feel burned by these changes, but at the risk of sounding heartless, them's just the brakes sometimes

[stuck bloom]

I still am confused as to how we AOE with the jobs, or if it's pure automatic

[mossy eagle]

It sucked when I lost my spreadsheet tank in 6.3

[versed haven]

A lot of us are casual players. Things like savage content are meant to severely palm-grasp the allotted grace period you have to do anything.

In our eyes, job complexity is practically nothing in a world where we just occasionally reposition ourselves even at current-level. In their eyes, literally every amount of breathing room in their busy rotation matters to how they optimize

So, in WonderBird's perspective, I understand why they have the impression that reborn bard is harder than evolved bard

Flubbed on that sentence LMFAO

[stuck bloom]

*Evolved Bard is simpler, it's 2.x Bard rather than 4.x and beyond Bard. I personally am not that opposed, but I also think it sucks for current Bard players who like it.

[mossy eagle]

...Evolved BRD but yes

[terse zodiac]

evolved bard is almost a 1:1 copy of current summoner which is widely accepted as the easiest job in the game

[clear plume]

as a hc player, I put close to 40-50 hours a week into getting good at this game, so personally I do a lot of optimization around current design that they said theyre removing and its a downside to optimized play, but that "it has its own upsides to consider". so when thats basically exactly what they said by one of the slides. I can say removing the opti is bad for me personally 100%. especially when in the same message youre mad about I stated its probably a positive to 99% of the playerbase.

im simply not the target audience

[mossy eagle]

Yeah that's it more or less

Much like how I'm not the target audience for fighting games

[versed haven]

Iiii haven't played summoner so I have no basis on that. I just think its nature in evolved is far more different than fulfilling timed DoTs and songs the same way as you do with any buffs on a rotational period. When the only difference between it and the other jobs is that it has a lot of more of the same stuff to press and 2 DoTs, its luxury tends to wear off

[mossy eagle]

There's a game out there for you, it might just not be this one come 8.0

[clear plume]

im not racing out the door, ive enjoyed the game for 15 years, im not going to be cataclysmic about changes that I havent played yet.

[stuck bloom]

Personally as someone who has been with this game for 13 years and raids HC... meh... they'll mess this up like everything else then fix it half way through the expansion.

[clear plume]

but I will state the general gist, that they want to kill group based optimization

[versed haven]

Honestly, even if I believed that--Who wouldn't?

They've leaned too far into it

[clear plume]

if I dont end up parsing next expack its whatever, ill just prog and then go log onto wow

[versed haven]

Every boss needs to be designed around it, every other job needs to be designed around it, the 2-minute burst rotation has put a lot of jobs into so much complacency to the point that a more free-form, accessible "every job is absolutely divergent from one another" angle is welcome from me

[stuck bloom]

Well, the problem is they leant into it this way to simplify for people, and are removing it to bring back variation for people.

[versed haven]

And I'm kind of fine with that. If I have to choose between two evils, I'll walk out of the evolved door anytime

Maybe I'm overtly defensive of a system I've only seen winces of, but it speaks volumes when no matter how much I change my job, something about it feels so agonizingly consistent

[stuck bloom]

But it's like... they made this problem because they wanted to simplify raid buffs to be more accessible, and their solution is to simplify things further.

[versed haven]

Simplify, yet diversify.

Again, matter of two evils

[stuck bloom]

We have yet to really see diversifying of jobs

[tender elm]

i don't think this means the end of optimization or anything
it just means the old way is dead
but that doesn't mean there won't be new things to optimize around
and depending on how the other jobs turn out, it might even be more interesting this way

[spice path]

There is still opti with bard. The songs give different buffs. Gotta opti where to use what one etc.

[stuck bloom]

We've seen SMN, and RPR, reskinned as BRD and DRG.

[versed haven]

We'll see when the other jobs get reworked

[terse zodiac]

we wont see diversity until they show others in the same role ofc

[stuck bloom]

PLD was PLD... and WHM was watered down WHM.

[versed haven]

Debatable, but-

[clear plume]

even if you take this argument seriously, its less opti than current smn has with its summons around movement

which people dont consider enough to satisfy

[spice path]

There's also the fact that fights can be faster paced and harder without that 2 minute.

[clear plume]

its not really opti, its putting the circle in the circle hole

[versed haven]

^^

[versed haven]

True

[stuck bloom]

Since when can they be faster paced and harder?

[untold oyster]

they should break automarkers in 8.0 thoughts ?

[clear plume]

we cant say that until we see it. there isnt a reason to believe fight speed is effected at all

just that they can design it differently

[stuck bloom]

If SE wanted things to be harder they could make them harder

[terse zodiac]

part of the difficulty of some mechanics is because they put the mechanic at the 2 minute intentionally

[untold oyster]

they need to make it so one person can't mark multiple people at once

[versed haven]

I'd talk about the fallacy in the focus of difficulty and busy jobs, but literally this is what endgame lounge is made for

[stuck bloom]

Time after time it's "We don't know if players can clear" whilst designing Ultimates when advertising it and... would you look at that, every Ultimate has been cleared, even the super buggy TOP.

[untold oyster]

top is genuinely the worst fight in the game

and its not even close

[spice path]

They literally said it in the dev panel. The removal of the 2mins can allow devs to go more crazy with stuff in battle content because they don't have to hold back every few mins.

[clear plume]

things like phase timers are what current design incentivize, because it feels GOOD when a phase ends on a timer thats good, and bad when it disappears mid burst

but that isnt something to do with fight speed

just lets them design phase timers to end when the mechanic ends

[versed haven]

Again, debatable. Phase timers have become generic for me, because at a certain point, they become easy to predict and the downtime is MISERABLEEE

[stuck bloom]

Yes, but I don't trust a damn thing the Devs say. You remember the reason that we can't have Glamour Dresser in houses? Because they apparently programmed it worse than the armoire chest, the retainer bell, and the FC chest.

[clear plume]

youre literally just hearing them say they dont have to design fights around 2m design anymore and taking it to mean it could be anything, instead of having the context of how designing around 2m works

[stuck bloom]

So either they got worse at dealing with their spagetti code over 5 years, or they're full of it.

[untold oyster]

they have to design fights around the fact the game is built like shit

you cant have crazy damage or fast damage hti the party because heals go out one by one for aoe heals lol

[clear plume]

if it is faster I welcome it, it just isnt something I jump to as an obvious conclusion

bc it was not what was said at all

[spice path]

I just think everyone is making a whole lot of something out of nothing.

[untold oyster]

this happens whenever any changes are announced ever lol

[spice path]

We have seen 4 jobs in early stages.

Thats it.

[stuck bloom]

Except it's not really a nothing, they've said these versions, which have been shown to be easier, will be objectively higher damage.

[versed haven]

This is becoming a conversation leaning into jaded expectations, which I cannot blame, but we're stretching too far now

[clear plume]

the only context we have for future difficulty is quite literally that they expect future savage to remain on par with current, thats what theyve said and what we have to base things around, not whether it could be faster or harder and easier jobs can compensate for it to a total overall difficulty

your entire argument is bitching about you thinking jobs are samey to defend this, is that not a jaded experience?

[terse zodiac]

to be fair he didn't say all evolved would be stronger, just generally speaking they will be a little stronger

some reborn might be slightly stronger

[spice path]

It could even depend on the fight too.

[versed haven]

Who said the jaded experiences didn't apply to ME too???? <\3 It's not just Lilith having context-based spite, it's definitely yours truly

[loud nymph]

It reads more to me like "evolved is more, but it's close enough that it's within the margin of error for the average player"

[terse zodiac]

definitely will depend on fight length since evolved are bursting faster, ending anywhere outside the end of a 2m window reborn will be at a disadvantage

[stuck bloom]

All I meant by that was that I take the dev's words with a massive grain of salt. This was just an example. There's the Eureka claim of "Like a theme park, and relic is only 1 attraction" for promoting Anemos. It's happened more than enough to be skeptical.

[spice path]

They aren't taking away current rotations. If you dont like the new ones, play the old ones.

[robust shoal]

it doesn't really feel like they design current fights around 2mins tbh

[versed haven]

I'll take it with a grain of salt, but I'm tired of acting like there's a cost of being optimistic

[robust shoal]

list off where your burst windows fall during savage and it's a mix of during mechanic/not during mechanic

[clear plume]

every single phase of fru ends directly after a 1m/2m window

[untold oyster]

fru fun fight

[stuck bloom]

I was optimistic too once... You know what it got me... 7 1500 tomestone steps IN A ROW.

[robust shoal]

true, ultis follow that pattern pretty closely

also 4:30 final phases so you can't double pot

[clear plume]

ye, like thats what I assume they mean

they need to design phases to feel good for 1m bursts and such

[robust shoal]

savage feels totally random re: burst windows though

[versed haven]

It's okay to QUIT and ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR DISAPPOINTMENT??? <\3333 If you saw that you had to do those god-forbidden steps, why wasn't your first response just giving up

[clear plume]

mmmm even then it mostly follows

like 7s jumping directly after a buff window, and you landing in last arena directly before a burst window

both feel very intentional

8s ends on a 2m window

[stuck bloom]

SE has made me jaded about everything, and I attribute that to them not learning in 5+ years that people didn't care if people could progress with tomestones, we just wanted alternate ways to do those same steps.

[versed haven]

Like, there's being optimistic and being overtly and endlessly hopeful, what you went through sounds like torture

[clear plume]

I think they have times they break from it, like 8s cutscene timings

[versed haven]

Legitimately. Why haven't you quit at this point if this is the level of trust that you had with them, with all that in acknowledgement

[clear plume]

but by and large id say they design around fights feeling good

8s add phase starting at a 1m, and ending at the 2m

[robust shoal]

4s is totally random and doesn't end on a 2min though ig arena break is pretty convenient timing

[untold oyster]

you can tune a piano but you cant tuna fish

[clear plume]

I think the end of 4s with its split arena timing with a 2m is an example of it being broken yeah

[stuck bloom]

Because like I said, it took 7 times for me to actually give up on it. I love relics, I did all relics on 2 characters for all expansions ShB's and prior, and even did a bunch on a 3rd character, but EW and DT killed what little hope I still had in looking forward to anything with actual hope.

[clear plume]

but it stands out bc of it, not sets the rule, if it makes sense

[stuck bloom]

Cause I can distrust SE and still enjoy doing content.

[clear plume]

but tldr, i think fight design can be sped up a LOT with more rotations based around non strict timers

and thats the upside, not fights getting faster or anything

[robust shoal]

you also do 2mins right during ee1 and ion cannon but then also just randomly after mustard bomb and sunrise

[stuck bloom]

Well, currently all jobs shown are 1m jobs

[spice path]

I think people are too jaded at this point. I think the changes are alright until proven otherwise. But if you dont thats fine too. That's why they kept 'reborn' in the game.

[clear plume]

ee1 is a fine mechanic to do 2m during though.

[robust shoal]

if the designers say they're constricted by it ig I can't really refute that but my main point is just I don't really see any sort of pattern they seem to be beholden to re: pacing

ee1 is absolutely fine to hit buttons during, just I feel if they were really beholden to a script they could push things back less than ten seconds and that would fit the supposed mechanic-burst-mechanic sequence

[clear plume]

well, its not that they cant have mechanics during 2m

that can be exciting

[stuck bloom]

I feel it's easy to refute. You can literally have any killtime, it doesn't matter if it's good or it sucks, as long as it's balanced for the jobs and gameplay that exists. We have had bad 2 minutes, and good 2 minutes, and we've always made do.

[terse zodiac]

keep in mind hes not only talking about endgame when saying these things, most of the audience watching this is casual and might seem weird that alliance raid, normal raid, trial bosses just sit still for 30 seconds during buffs

[clear plume]

its just when a mechanic or phase timing cuts off windows that feels bad that they tend to avoid

[untold oyster]

i want them to announce something with barely any information tomorrow so we can argue more about assumptions

shoutout to endwalker trials that had a cutscene for 2 minutes every time lol

normal mode i mean

[stuck bloom]

M6S having 2m in Quicksand and then again later in Lightning being good examples.

[terse zodiac]

golbez stands out massively when he just stands still for like 40 seconds but theres plenty of examples

[clear plume]

like omega dodges in top are exciting BECAUSE theyre during a 2m, and thats a good example of designing around them in a positive way, monitors being a burst window makes greeding them more fun, but both phases still end directly after the burst ends.

you dont have much examples of "the boss phases at exactly 2:10" at all

[versed haven]

That's

Actually fair

[clear plume]

but 2:30? really common

thats the general design that they can buck with the change, any phase timer will just work

[stuck bloom]

You're not wrong, but with them basing things around 1m, we'll still likely see the same.

And if they do keep Reborn jobs it won't change anything unless their timers change.

Or it shouldn't in theory

[clear plume]

they wont be designing around reborn jobs they said

[stuck bloom]

Cause they still dish out most of their damage on 2's.

[clear plume]

theyre keeping them around sure, but not designing combat around them

[stuck bloom]

Yes but they also said all content is clearable by reborn jobs

So they will have to do so to fulfil that.

[clear plume]

yeah ofc, but it doesnt mean itll be remotely comfortable on those jobs

[robust shoal]

it's also possible reborn jobs get altered to not align so strictly with 2mins

[clear plume]

paladin could clear abyssos perfectly fine, didnt mean its players were happy.

juust means reborn wont be doing 20% less damage or something

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, but it wasn't so much about Paladin in Abyssos, it was about comp

You took too many bad off jobs, you weren't clearing.

Unless Crit smiled upon you

REAL hard

[clear plume]

when they say all reborn jobs can clear all content, that doesnt even mean every job can clear week 1 either

[stuck bloom]

No, but it's a limiting factor on Ultimates specifically

[tepid mist]

LF MT for savage ([mode that does more damage] required)

[clear plume]

ultimates tend to have a lighter dps check than early savage

anybody optimizing will simply play the better version, not reborn bc they like it more

especially for prog

in parsing maybe reborn bard can make a comeback, maybe even speeds will reward it for sure

but my static is 100% expecting to put time into reborn and be using it

evol;ved*

[stuck bloom]

I know, I was more meaning that it will affect the balance of high end stuff.

[tepid mist]

that is the implication
it does not matter how either plays if one does more damage than the other

[clear plume]

smn had no problem clearing fru, doesnt mean it was in a good spot

[stuck bloom]

I also hate the claim of "Every job can clear" != "Every job can clear week 1" because then it's gear gated.

[proper cave]

Don't know if it was mentioned here already but someone pointed out to me that removing party buffs also means it's a lot less likely to hit buff cap

Which is a sick side effect I wasn't thinking about

[clear plume]

I dont think theyre going to care if a world race team sticks to reborn bc theyre boomers, has a bad comp for reborn, and gets stuck on a dps check because the boss has a weird timer, even if each job individually can clear on reborn.

[stuck bloom]

And if people think that's fine, the two most complained about tiers were Gordias, and Abyssos, two tiers where gear truly could mean the difference between no clear and a clear.

[shy obsidian]

regardless of how they are changed, what job(s) are ya guys planning to run the MSQ through with?

[clear plume]

i have to see every job before I can decide that

[robust shoal]

always drk

I was thinking of possibly going with a new outfit but the one I've been using recently isn't very cold-themed

[stuck bloom]

You're not wrong, I just think they'll still design around Reborn, if only a little, unless they do some changes on Reborn to more balance potencies outside of 2m's.

[tepid mist]

new job if they look cool

[shy obsidian]

i might go with beeper purely for story purposes but uh. I cant decide if I wanna uh. change my current reaper outfit or not

[clear plume]

I think them designing around reborn goes against the entire upside theyre advertising of evolved, and if they wanted them to be equal, wed have reborn of the new jobs

[worn bluff]

i wonder if they will change invuln cooldowns

[shy obsidian]

like it's a really fucking cool outfit but uh. I kinda wanna... change it

[worn bluff]

[clear plume]

but maybe thats just me being doomer

but no reborn of new jobs and sayign they think evolved will perform slightly better is not putting faith that they want to design around reborn super hard

[shy obsidian]

but if I were to change the outfit, what aesthetic should I even pursue...
i was considering something like this, but just looking at the exposed top gives me the shivers lol

not really a wintry outfit

[clear plume]

i see reborn as a transitionary period that if somebody REALLY hates the changes, can cope with until they find an evolved they like

not that its a long term plan to keep it in a healthy state

[worn bluff]

i would have just ripped the bandaid off and done evolved only but i don’t have any data to say that’s the right call

your job could have been completely reworked without evolved anyways

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, I don't think they will too hard, but I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they did some rebalancing so jobs are less heavy on the 2m burst, and have ok neutral and/or 1m as well.
If they don't... ehhh... but wouldn't be surprised.

[worn bluff]

yes now it’s all of them being reworked but just make a clean switch

[stuck bloom]

I actually agree with that, I mean they did destroy my main job (at the time) 2 expansions IN A ROW on patch drop, so it wouldn't be the first time.

WAR in 4.0 [halved gauge for stance dancing, removed Bloodbath which was their defining CD since launch] and 5.0 [removed DPS stances, a bunch of actions, and most CD's].
What's a little changing your job identity between friends?

[proper cave]

They’ve said in the past that they are aware that any change they make will have a loud, if small, group of players who will complain endlessly about it. Deciding to ease in like this is perhaps less than ideal but it’s as good of a middle ground as any.

[stuck bloom]

I'd take the middle ground of them making BLU a real job.

:3

[tight wing]

calling it now, the eva raids are gonna be tokyo 3, nerve hideout and world post 3rd impact

[versed haven]

The only complaint I had with the fanfest is that BST is being made

[tepid mist]

https://tenor.com/view/feel-that-thats-true-true-adachi-tohru-adachi-gif-7686386473571447384

[versed haven]

I'm sorry but like, limited jobs have taken SO many reported resources apparently

[tight wing]

i feel limited jobs are nice and bu at the same time

[stuck bloom]

Yes, but they're the ones who chose to make them limited

[versed haven]

True

Wait.

Is this literally just because none of them have shields and PLD does

[tepid mist]

yeah

[stuck bloom]

Well, none of them can block

Only parry

[wicked delta]

Slept on it for like 4 hours and decided nope I still loathe these whm job changes

[dull drum]

im free

https://tenor.com/view/rage-punch-rage-quit-angry-gif-26824995

[wicked delta]

I’ll see how it goes in the media tour but I think I gotta pull out the “learning AST again” tech for Evercold lmao

[versed haven]

True, but I guess I didn't expect it'd influence what classifies them as Off Tanks

[stuck bloom]

Well, PLD is PLD, and the other 3 are Warrior

[versed haven]

Depends on how their reworks go, honestly--

[tepid mist]

I have no loyalty I just play whatever jobs SE makes fun each expac

[rapid whale]

just have fun

[boreal pumice]

Pulling learning ast card again are we

[versed haven]

I wonder how they'll change DRK, War, and GNB

[rapid whale]

wait

@wicked delta why tf are you awake

[wicked delta]

[tight wing]

hello free

[wicked delta]

Its 8 in the morning soon why wouldn’t I be awake

[boreal pumice]

It’s like half 8 for Tobi

[versed haven]

Gnb's obviously gonna have continuation, but I imagine that they're gonna skim down on one of their more obtrusive buttons

[stuck bloom]

What do you mean, they are different... Warrior's animation doesn't change, and Gunbreaker has weaves between each.

[versed haven]

Drk,,???? Anything's kind of game with that job

[rapid whale]

mb stay up

[stuck bloom]

As we all know, if the animation changes, it completely changes how the job plays.

[boreal pumice]

Fel cleave if it’s changed

[versed haven]

True!!! Especially when the animation also changes with the mechanic, which it does!!!

[sinful brook]

!slowmode 0

[storm frost]

Success!

Slowmode Updated to 0, Kupo!

[tepid mist]

fel cleave is like the coka cola of job actions
they won't change it

[stuck bloom]

Honestly if Fell Cleaves animation was changed there'd be riots... deserved riots.

[versed haven]

Hm. Gnb's probably gonna be given something new

That, or DRK

Did DRK have any legacy abilities that got shafted from the HW days?

[stuck bloom]

Maybe they'll double down and get quadruple down.

[boreal pumice]

You mean hw?

[versed haven]

Yeah, forgot it isn't that ancient

[robust shoal]

drk lost a lot of abilities since HW

[wicked delta]

Idk dark arts I guess

[stuck bloom]

HW had a couple abilities. The job was very different... Scourge?

[wicked delta]

There’s like so many lol

[rapid whale]

would you say they are 😎 lost actions

[robust shoal]

I might

[tepid mist]

https://tenor.com/view/man-aslume-yeah-yeah-im-man-im-man-gif-2605260959459033758

[stuck bloom]

There's a bunch but many were reworked or moved elsewhere or its name was used elsewhere.

[versed haven]

Quick, what's the most defining one you can think of

[robust shoal]

delirium has done like 4 different things

[stuck bloom]

Dark Arts

[wicked delta]

Yoshi P bring back plunge as an animation and my life is yours

[stuck bloom]

Honestly though the craziest changed one is Reprisal.

It used to be a retaliation after a parry

[versed haven]

Oh right, Reprisal was completely different

[stuck bloom]

DRK was super oGCD heavy in HW, for just about everything.

[rapid whale]

im super excited about the future of the game

idgaf what the doomers got to say

[shy obsidian]

i might try bard, honestly

[dull drum]

i'll believe it when i see it

[versed haven]

Maybe they'll bring that aspect back?

[dull drum]

just like the promised butt slider

[shy obsidian]

idk I think the dashies sold me on it

[stuck bloom]

I guess we did eventually get back to it being almost like then... hmm.

[dull drum]

[wicked delta]

I mean im excited to see what will happen but im not gonna pretend healer gameplay is making me feel hopeful

[versed haven]

It's hard to think of every tank job having a designated gimmick, outside of being a specific archetype of warrior

[wicked delta]

Everything outside of jobs have me hyped

[versed haven]

I'm excited for the job variety this time around

[rapid whale]

the evolved dps seem great

[versed haven]

They kind of addressed everything I wanted to regarding that; An optimized button kit with unique actions per job, and a removable of the 120 sec burst rotation standard

[stuck bloom]

Why worry about that honestly? Like, DRK could simply fully lean into the MP side of things and lose their cleave combo if they REALLY wanted to lean into it, and GNB could lean into more aether charge actions.

[versed haven]

Yeah,,,,

I feel like WHM players would feel more optimistic if they felt like there was a real incentive to healing outside of maxxing out their damage in evolved

[robust shoal]

I'd love to see more mp management but without buffs what exactly would I be managing it for

like where's the encentive to bank (and risk overcap) vs just spend it all as soon as I can

[stuck bloom]

I'm kind of hoping that we see my random tank design for an immune though on the new tank. Reverse (ala FFXII) where most damage heals the target instead.

[versed haven]

Well, buffs aren't out of the question actually

Especially for DRK, who uses them so uniquely

They'll probably be restructured, yeah, but not eliminated

[robust shoal]

One of my proudest moments on drk was doing a perfect mana plan in e11s when we had a mnk and no nin (so, playing around 90s buffs instead of 60s)

[versed haven]

What's crazy is that most of the kits included in the jobs' original kits aren't even absent, just more optimized into one context-sensitive button. For instance, PLD's shield bash being a throw at certain distances

[stuck bloom]

Well, for WHM, I think there are a lot of things that are very "why though?" I know my static's WHM is excited for the changes, I just cannot see a 1 button rotation for 80-90% of a fight and feel excited.

[rapid whale]

now that we're out of the 2min meta, that kind of opti is p much going to be reserved for potion windows right?

[robust shoal]

probably yeah

we'll see if you can even bank an edge any more

[versed haven]

I like to think of it as: Yes, WHM's rotation is bland, but evolved gives it incentive to be something more because it actually relies on its own healing potency

[stuck bloom]

Again, we've already seen a 1 minute buff, so we still will have buff windows.

[versed haven]

^

They aren't scrapping buff windows, moreso minimizing their presence

[stuck bloom]

Except it doesn't seem to? They seemed to be pushing it as refunding the lost GCD's, not necessarily adding more than them.

[wicked delta]

[versed haven]

Wait a sec; Doesn't EVERY healer have a DoT?

At least, in Reborn????

[stuck bloom]

Yes

[wicked delta]

WHM seemingly did not have one in evolved lol

[versed haven]

Yeah, no wonder they got rid of it

[stuck bloom]

Evolved had no DoT.

[versed haven]

It probably became a bit redundant design-wise

Now, the funny question is, who survived the DoT drought

[stuck bloom]

SCH

[whole estuary]

Plague is job identity

[stuck bloom]

I can almost assure you SCH survived it

[versed haven]

I'll throw my brain in a toilet and bet on AST, because they want to keep it busy

[stuck bloom]

Considering the most they ever had at one time was 7 DoTs.

[versed haven]

????

[stuck bloom]

Aero, Thunder, Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare (2.0), lost Thunder in 2.1.

AST will just keep cards, unless they go back to their old time magic stuff

[versed haven]

Thunder was a cross class??????

[stuck bloom]

For 1 patch

Yep

[versed haven]

What were they DOING in 2.0

[wicked delta]

Basically everything was cross-class at some point iirc

[versed haven]

Oh right. FF11 game design

[stuck bloom]

Well, considering Warrior wasn't REALLY a tank at the time... random stuff.

[rapid whale]

drk used to be a dps until xiv

[stuck bloom]

They literally designed Warrior to only really health steal. Your mitigation was your face

Oh, and the 6% you'd get on Physical damage from Foresight.

[whole estuary]

being dedicated OT is mit

[versed haven]

Jesus christ

[stuck bloom]

(it buffed Physical Defence [ONLY] by 20%)

[versed haven]

With proper context, I think for jobs like Summoner and Sch, the summons and DoTs are their most important factor in evolved

[whole estuary]

SMN too?

[versed haven]

Yeah, actually. It'd make sense, given their approach of providing job distinction

[whole estuary]

and not just in a "Automaton Queen is a DoT" kind of way with a summon or something?

[versed haven]

....Summoner's DoT is admittedly kind of a pipe dream

[stuck bloom]

I'd take Shadowflare

It was a DoT that wasn't exactly a DoT

Since it essentially worked like Doton.

[versed haven]

Yyyyup

I have no doubt they'll make summoner a summoner again in evolved, and not machinist in the m. Ranged slot. But it'd need some sort of designated control

[shy obsidian]

honestly I'd kinda love to control the summons in some capacity

[versed haven]

And as Lilith said, Shadow Flare on sch would be a neat change of pace

[stuck bloom]

I still want MCH to PvP cast... so walking.

[versed haven]

Are people still asking for that sniping move from PvP or has hope been abandoned

[stuck bloom]

I don't know, I just think MCH having worse movement means it could get... ... ... huh... bard lost its utility

[versed haven]

Bard's kind of just playing the role of buffer with a song focus now, rather than DoT upkeep

That said, from gameplay footage, it STILL does get busy

[stuck bloom]

No, I mean its utility.

[versed haven]

U-utility?

[stuck bloom]

It's cleanse and second raid buff

[versed haven]

Like,,--

Oh

[stuck bloom]

The Healing buff

[versed haven]

Nono, I saw the healing buff in the menu

Or was that troubadour,,

[stuck bloom]

They've only got Troub

[versed haven]

.

wait, why did they do that-

I'm not broken by that decision, but like, wouldn't troub be the reasonable cut??????

[stuck bloom]

WTF?!? Minnesanger? That's what the buff was when they used it

[versed haven]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait

Okay, reviewing bard again.

[stuck bloom]

Okay, I get it, probably a typo. I think it's essentially Minne's Anger

So both Troub and Minne at once I guess

[versed haven]

Mage's Ballad has AoE Regen

Army's Peion has AoE move speed,

Minne is an AoE Shield

And Troub just kind of sits on the shelf

[stuck bloom]

Minuet is the AOE shield. Troub gets used at ~7:06:54

[versed haven]

Okay, so its supportive aspect really was retained in a way, just made different

I just can't believe that they put that on TOP of the weapon buffs, making each song offensive and defensive respectively

[rapid spade]

I'm surprised they mentioned nothing about AOE skills. Like there were no standard/spammable AOE combos.

[stuck bloom]

Yeah, but if they got rid of the utility from being separate, I wonder what'll happen to MCH.

[versed haven]

THAT'S SOMETHING I WAS LOOKING AT TOO

Where are the AoE skills?

[rapid whale]

mch gameplay will now be about stacking debuffs for yuge tool crits in those windows

jk im making stuff up

[stuck bloom]

Actually they mentioned something about that earlier, about it being combined elsewhere.

[wicked delta]

Probably just not finished yet honestly lol

[rapid spade]

There were some AOE skills locked behind special-condition skills.

But no spammable combos.

[wicked delta]

Im sure theres stuff in there but I think they’re ironing out the rest before showing it off

[versed haven]

Mch will probably get some optimizations that keep it weave-heavy, but there'll be a caviat

[rapid spade]

Though MCH already has one of the least number of buttons. I wonder what they'll do with it.

[stuck bloom]

6:22:33

About AOE's

[rapid spade]

DNC will benefit a lot though, probably.

[stuck bloom]

I still enjoyed doing UCoB and adding Peloton every weave window I could that wasn't being used for damage/mit. Whilst doing callouts, and whilst ALSO calling out each usage of Peloton.

My RDM hated it XD

[rapid spade]

BRD during HW was pretty fun, tbh. It sucked at first. But it was OP by the end of HW, until they reverted the mage-BRD back lol

[worn bluff]

WAR evolved: same number of buttons

[jade nimbus]

Tbf jobs seemed pretty different, at least for dps

[tepid mist]

they gonna have to really cook to make SMN/RPR/VPR any easier

[whole estuary]

Didn't they make WHM easier?

Have faith

2 button SMN

[sleek moon]

im absolutely ready for rpr button debloat

[wicked delta]

https://tenor.com/view/kill-me-shoot-me-kms-shoot-choking-gif-18076903094489133625

[wicked delta]

Im genuinely excited to see what they’ll do for rpr

I like pvp reaper

If its similar to that then I will be happy

[dapper zealot]

DD gone

[wicked delta]

I don’t mind if DD stays

Just hope they make it more fitting to the rotation overall than now

Like noxious fang (whatever it was called) (gg to that button)

[tulip wraith]

does whm even need dash anymore now that its instant cast

i mean reborn wont be i guess

[trim frost]

probably not

but idk i assume it's trying to supplant burning lilies as an instacast option

[tulip wraith]

after mulling it over today, i think im excited for all the evolved forms except healer

i think they should all go back into the oven but healers the most

[dapper zealot]

I'm iffy on healer most because I don't want them turning into curebots like other mmos

[tulip wraith]

i like the concept of using gcd heals proc a stronger attack

idk if thats whm specific though

[wicked delta]

As far as I can tell they deleted misery from whm

That fucking sucks man

I loved misery crits lol

[dapper zealot]

Ast now only has two cards that'll change depending on who you're targeting :)

[tulip wraith]

:(

[wicked delta]

I like this idea as well

[tulip wraith]

we're gonna go from 6 cards back to 2

[wicked delta]

Its just

[tulip wraith]

maybe even 1

[dapper zealot]

Also they removed lilybell

[wicked delta]

Everything else

[dapper zealot]

Wtf

[dapper zealot]

Cure 1 has a 15% chance of giving a free Stone

[tulip wraith]

i know still very early and subject to change blah blah blah, but i think it feels like they might be removing too many buttons

[dapper zealot]

They're future proofing it

[wicked delta]

Yeah sorry im a total doomer about this lol

I’ll def write some feedback about it though

[tulip wraith]

i wish they didnt use whm because
A. its the easiest healer already
B. i know shit all about whm 💀

i was looking at those buttons like a deer in head lights

[wicked delta]

Its not necessarily that I dislike change but this form of change is just ??? to me so far

[tulip wraith]

i only knew the dash off rip

[wicked delta]

I’ll let SE cook tho

[dapper zealot]

I know whm but I was confused af cause I don't know how to read controller hotbar :)

[tulip wraith]

LOL fair

[tulip wraith]

yeah thats what i keep telling my self too

i love how tanks have an almost counter feature

i think thats really awesome

or at least pld/maybe only MTs

its funny how the showcase had the higher potency counter do less damage than the lower potency one

[wicked delta]

The MT OT thing is a little silly to me

Wish that was just a community standard and not an actual ingame feature

But I’ll see how it goes i Guess

[tulip wraith]

yeah i liked how MT OT was more of a who wants primary aggro, not which tank is better for the job purely based off their job