endgame-lounge

[tall field]

Good that hector released an unreal guide for tsuku

[verbal frost]

really major only thing I can say is for this fight specifically they need to fix the p1 issue

[tall field]

Hopefully SBs do also follow suit

[verbal frost]

since it will eventually be so easy to kill p1 it will mess up intermission so bad

[verbal frost]

He still needs to release a chaotic guide I've been asking him since 7.1

[tall field]

[verbal frost]

But yeah good on hector

[tall field]

Kobe did the 48man/24man hard content

[verbal frost]

kobe chaotic strat nobody uses though

someone needs to make updated strat

codcar or healerout probably

[tall field]

Idk if hector cares about anything past 8 man

[verbal frost]

nobody likes Aurelia that shit is trash lets be real

[verbal frost]

probs

[tall field]

Unrealn tsuku will be a pf nightmare or has the potential of

[trim frost]

it's. so bad

[tall field]

So he must have released a guide

He didnt for Seiryu

Since that trial can be explained in 2mins

[trim frost]

at the very least i'm gonna play enough tonight to get to diamond 4 so it'll put me at least at plat 4 next season

[amber fable]

Its old guides

Made for level 100

[verbal frost]

nice bun

[tall field]

Yea but why not snake

Why Specifically Bird and Tsuku

[amber fable]

Cuz it dont need one

I guess

[sick reef]

snake is too simple

[verbal frost]

hector should just be more consistent try to release guide for every major content

[amber fable]

Byakko didnt need one either

[verbal frost]

did he even do q40?

[tall field]

Nope

[verbal frost]

idk if hector is clearing q40 though ngl

💀

took bro like a month to clear m8s

[amber fable]

He cleared top but didnt make guide

[sick reef]

cleared snake in 3 pulls, wiht like 3 blind ppl its a bit funni

[verbal frost]

o shit

[sick reef]

tsuku seems to be fun

[tall field]

He explained comet well

BUt we have SB

and people r gonna come with some cooked up comet strats

paste that

[sick reef]

i think i saw mtqs tsuku ex guide

[tall field]

Sorry bro we doing that

[verbal frost]

Is Tsukiyomi a good extreme?

[sick reef]

its alright

[thin fox]

You might think its silly re: stakes, but the overall design philosophy that allows for healer-less dungeons is the exact same design philosophy that allows for healer-less ultimate clears

[tall field]

Better than snake

[sick reef]

has like 2 real mechanics

[verbal frost]

Probs better than whatever tf the first 3 have been

Suzaku wasn't bad ngl

Byakko was just dogshit

[tall field]

Thordan was the worst

[amber fable]

Its harder than most dt ex I would say

[sick reef]

suzaku cooked pf for so long cuz mfs couldnt hit dmg

[tall field]

Byakko and Snake

is

[verbal frost]

well ngl

[tall field]

whatever it is

[verbal frost]

Suzaku was just fun for me because it had a actual dps check

and the mechs were actually somewhat engaging

[visual geyser]

Suzuku was fun

[verbal frost]

Byakko was dogshit fight inredeemable imo

u can't fix garbage

[visual geyser]

Didn’t do seiryuu because they didn’t add a good reward

[thin fox]

all unreals have dps check if you run with stupid people

[verbal frost]

Seiryu was honestly fine

[sick reef]

if tsuku has dps check its joever, took me a week to find ppl who hand hands for suzaku

[verbal frost]

Seiryu is the defintion of mid

[tall field]

Seiryu was fine to me because it was Party finder proof

[amber fable]

Imagine needing pot to clear unreal

[verbal frost]

The should just add dps checks it's unreal fuck it

[amber fable]

Crazy

[tall field]

As in I can expect a clear 95/100 tiomes

[verbal frost]

we don't need another suzaku dps check for sure

[shy obsidian]

something someting Suzaku

[verbal frost]

but not a joke like byakko and seiryu

[shy obsidian]

HEARKEN TO MY MELODY

[tall field]

People will like it

[alpine plover]

Dont worry we get shb extremes soon

[sick reef]

something in between, the mount is ass n cheeks this time

[verbal frost]

extremes should have actual dps checks anyways it's a major issue

[tall field]

SEE WE GOT MIDCOREEEEE

[sick reef]

rock ass

[amber fable]

Shb extremes suck

[verbal frost]

extreme difficulty is very inconsistent

[amber fable]

Long ass scenes

[tall field]

Elidi?

[amber fable]

I dont like those

[thin fox]

great now I can have ass shadowbringers optional trials in my unreals instead of ass stormblood optional trials

enjoy your ruby weapon

[verbal frost]

they gott amake extremes more consistent but I think yoshi was talking about it

[thin fox]

💤

[shy obsidian]

i thought you guys liked the Seat of Sacrifice

[amber fable]

Music sure

[verbal frost]

yoshi said they going to look at the mount totem rewards

just make them all 1 totem imo

[sick reef]

is that the emet one

[amber fable]

But I dont like long scenes in fight

[thin fox]

ruby weapon farming be like time to watch my 3 hour long cutscene between phases

[tall field]

SoS extreme is a good one of the lot i take it

[shy obsidian]

WRONG ASCIAN

[tall field]

Hades Ex was

[trim frost]

[verbal frost]

if every fight was like ex2 difficulty I wouldn't be mad

[sick reef]

make ex4 drop 2 totems and ill be arsed to clear it

[tall field]

Cutscene patience (Ultimate)

[verbal frost]

because zoraal ja was a fair fight

[alpine plover]

No they dont

[verbal frost]

had some challenging mechanics, had a dps check but it wasn't too prevalent.

[sick reef]

i mean the one where emet does his hand thing

[alpine plover]

They are meant to be pre savage introductions

[amber fable]

Extreme are casual content

[verbal frost]

extremes should def had dps checks imo

[tall field]

Yea and then watch a warrior trivializing both tankbusters there

[verbal frost]

extreme is considered high end content

[amber fable]

They will never have hard dps check

[verbal frost]

nobody asking for hard dps check

we asking for floor 1 savage probs

no damage downs anyway

[amber fable]

Floor 1 is harder

[verbal frost]

well let me tell u something

[tall field]

My co tank warrior told me
Dont take a tankbuster

Ill take all tankbuster

[verbal frost]

we already had a dps check harder than two savage fights this expansion

[tall field]

I didnt on stance the whole fight lol

[verbal frost]

EX3 Sphene had higher dps check than M1S it was on par with M2S

[thin fox]

none of the extremes have a dps check what are you talking about

[verbal frost]

so that's what I mean when I say the dps checks are inconsistent

[amber fable]

Lhw

Nuff said

[alpine plover]

Lol

[verbal frost]

Hades also had harder check than e1s

[tall field]

M3S was a

[sick reef]

time to see what mr hector cooked

[tall field]

dps check

[alpine plover]

Lhw was a joke

[tall field]

Mayybe?

[verbal frost]

ok

if u think LHW was a joke

why can't extreme have first floor savage dps check

[amber fable]

Because it was?

[tall field]

Because the msq andy needs a place to start

[alpine plover]

???

[verbal frost]

that's what I'm saying tho

[amber fable]

Nobody says they can't

[tall field]

Without feeling dejected

[verbal frost]

some of the extremes are actual savage fights

[amber fable]

But se never make ex like that

[verbal frost]

and some are very free

it's just very bad consistency imo

[tall field]

Ex5 what u rank it

In difficulty

/10?

[verbal frost]

difficulty this expac

[thin fox]

ok but the problem was that lhw's dps check was too low

[amber fable]

I didn't do necron so I wont guage it

[thin fox]

necron is zzz

[verbal frost]

ex3 > ex5 > ex4 > ex2 > arkveld > ex1 probably

[amber fable]

Ex4 was easiest ex so far tho

[thin fox]

necron is like bottom tier ex

[verbal frost]

but ex1 was my fav because it was a easy fight while having a decent dps check

[thin fox]

worst in the entire expansion so far

[verbal frost]

necron is just a trash extreme

[tall field]

PF

[thin fox]

completely dogshit boring fight and its easy as shit

[tall field]

Grand cross

[verbal frost]

if they are going to make the design hard

atleast make the dps check floor 1 savage

it's 2 totem anyways

but the dps check is a joke

[thin fox]

ok i guess normal mode hydaelyn is literally harder than TOP then if we're using this as our metric

[verbal frost]

they alr did that with sphene

[tall field]

[verbal frost]

ex3 was a hard fight b/c ice bridge was a ultimate level mechanic

and then they gave it a floor 1 savage dps check

shit was fun but ye pf was crashing out

[amber fable]

Only check was people goofing at phase change

[verbal frost]

I say make the mechanics more easy but make the dps check somewhat interesting

[amber fable]

I did enraged on it

Once

[tall field]

Btw

[verbal frost]

what I'm saying is most of the extremes

[tall field]

There are partyfinders

[verbal frost]

if we have like

[tall field]

That ENRAGED in snake unreal

[versed kayak]

can clear with 6 people in 740 and two tanks in 710 soooo

[verbal frost]

easy mid hard as a criteria

[tall field]

Ive seen it

even at 16% enrage

[verbal frost]

most of the extremes are designed either hard mechanics easy dps check

[tall field]

Imagine that

[verbal frost]

hard mechanics hard dps check

[thin fox]

Necron is maybe as bad as Zeromus for me lol

[verbal frost]

or easy dps check easy mechanics

we need more that are just mid mechanic mid dps check imo

ex2 was like that

I think ex6 will be somewhat like that

but who knows

hard mechanics is relative though obviously

[tall field]

Id say engaging mechs and a fine dps check

[verbal frost]

I don't really find extreme mechanics that hard

[tall field]

This is the best way

[verbal frost]

but yeah I will admit ice bridge is literally a mech you can put in a ultimate fight

[thin fox]

ok. no lol

[verbal frost]

u def can

[tall field]

Ex6 has the M8S teleporters thats confirmed

[verbal frost]

personally I would be more scared of ice bridge

than diamond dust in fru

[tall field]

Atleast from the trailer I saw

[verbal frost]

but that's jut me

[tall field]

And something akin to HH

[verbal frost]

ice bridge is also like...

8 mins into the fight?

or smth

[tall field]

Where he ground pounds the platform

[verbal frost]

6 mins I think

[amber fable]

Golbez had meteors

Like 2x in fight

[verbal frost]

so ye idk

[amber fable]

And it would insta wipe

[verbal frost]

I wish they would go back to making extremes more consistent and fun

[thin fox]

the wipe mechanic in Golbez wasn't meteors it was the fucking wind + stack/pair

[verbal frost]

even the play rates / clear rates of the extremes at least on tomestone

reflect what I'm saying

[tall field]

The worst unreal to me was thordan

[verbal frost]

let me show u

[amber fable]

It was mostly meteors for me

[verbal frost]

byakko was dogshit ima be real

[thin fox]

maybe it changed over time but

[verbal frost]

idk how anyone likes that fight unironically

[thin fox]

week 1 it was a nightmare

[tall field]

Holy shyt not one pf i could clear thordan in

[thin fox]

for gale2

[versed kayak]

yeah the wind stuff is the only really hard mech in golbez, and that's like 20 mins into the fight

horrible fight

[thin fox]

see gale2 = wipe

[verbal frost]

EW extremes def better than DT if we being relative

[thin fox]

[tall field]

But menbtor roulette thordan EX i cleared

[verbal frost]

but I think DT extremes have higher highs

ex1 and ex2 were probably the best Dawntrail extremes and they were the expansion launch ones

[thin fox]

rubicante zodiark zeromus

[verbal frost]

barbariccia is a good fight

and golbez

I think zeromus is aight

[tall field]

Zodiark .... is devolved into dorito fight now

[verbal frost]

zodiark not even bad imo

but that's just my take

[thin fox]

zeromus is a normal mode fight that they put the word extreme on and called it a day

[verbal frost]

I think DT extremes def have lower lows

also I think

ex3 for endwalker isn't bad

but that's a hot take

the fight is actually solid

but they could've themed it better

[tall field]

ehh endsinger I did i wasnt that impressed ngl

[amber fable]

Dt had zalenia necron

[tall field]

But was unsync

[verbal frost]

zelenia is a good fight

[thin fox]

valigarmanda is great, zelenia is good, sphene is great

[tall field]

Hydalyn was my fav prov

[verbal frost]

zelenia is an example of everything a extreme should be

[amber fable]

Ew had zodiark rubi zeromus

[thin fox]

zoraal ja is kinda mediocre and then necron is bad

[verbal frost]

besides the dps check

[tall field]

In those lot

[thin fox]

and arkveld is great

[verbal frost]

the dps check in zelenia brings the fight down a peg

[amber fable]

Zalenia is trash

[verbal frost]

because it's a joke

[tall field]

Since the intermission had something interesting

[verbal frost]

especially when u factor in

[amber fable]

Does 0 damage

No mech

[verbal frost]

it's a x.2 extreme

[amber fable]

No check

1 totem

[verbal frost]

so ppl just get savage gear

and destroy it

[thin fox]

if we're basing off that then every extreme is 0/10

no extreme has a dps check

[tall field]

Exactly

[verbal frost]

that's a lie

tho

ex2 had a dps check

ex3 had a dps check

[amber fable]

?

[tall field]

Ex should be seen from a casual player POV

[verbal frost]

ex3 literally had

[thin fox]

what?

[wicked delta]

????

[verbal frost]

savage dps check

[amber fable]

You had shit party

[verbal frost]

for it's time

[thin fox]

in what

WORLD

[tall field]

not a hard end raider pov

[amber fable]

Sorry to say

[verbal frost]

let me show u the logs

[thin fox]

is ex2 having a dps check

[verbal frost]

holdup bro

holdup

let me cook

[amber fable]

Ex2 check?

What

[wicked delta]

EX2 having a dps check is the funniest thing I have ever heard

[amber fable]

What people are you playing with

[verbal frost]

aight ex2 dps check wasn't hard

but was it harder than zelenia ye for sure

zelenia is like 12 minute enrage gang

atleast zoraal ja was lik 10 minute enrage

[tall field]

NEcron?

[verbal frost]

zelenia literally like 12 minute enrage

be fr

and it's 1 totem

[thin fox]

brother i could go into zoraal ja solo and i feel like i would somehow not hit enrage

[amber fable]

You have to try

[verbal frost]

zoraal had a actual dps check it just wasn't hard

[amber fable]

To enarge

[thin fox]

no??

[verbal frost]

the enrage was pretty fast after all the mechanics

[amber fable]

And that was on content

[tall field]

My trial 4 died in the fight we cleared ex2

[wicked delta]

Ive cleared with groups who died like 16 times in Zoraal Ja on content

[verbal frost]

what I'm saying is

specifically for necron and zelenia

[wicked delta]

Did not see enrage

That shit isnt real

[verbal frost]

after u see all the hard mechanics

[thin fox]

i don't think i have ever even come within like a minute of enrage cast beginning and i have done dozens of clears

[verbal frost]

the fight goes on for like 2 more fucking mins

instead of enraging like 30s after all the mechs

or 1m

[thin fox]

in zoraal ja you just dont have hard mechanics

[verbal frost]

zoraal ja after the final mech it immeidately enrages

I think it's like...

[thin fox]

THE FINAL MECH

THAT YOU

NEVER SEE

[amber fable]

What is its final mech even

[wicked delta]

Hard mechanic in question

[thin fox]

BECAUSE HE DIES SO QUICK

[tall field]

Necron hardest mech in PF was relentless reaping

[verbal frost]

chill bro chill

[tall field]

MM2 was role dependant

imo

[alpine plover]

no

none of the ex had a dps check in dt

[thin fox]

dude the hardest mechanic in necron is fucking towers because i keep role flexing and forgetting which way to go

[sinful brook]

TFW zoraal ja was dying like 3m before enrage the week of release

[wicked delta]

Right like lol

[amber fable]

It was piss easy

[sinful brook]

Bro you gotta stop

[amber fable]

At 690 ilvl

[sinful brook]

Baiting

[alpine plover]

if you enraged then either your party sucked cataclysmically or 2 people were asleep

[wicked delta]

If you saw enrage on Zoraal your team was exceptionally bad

[verbal frost]

Not even saying Zoraal was hard

[amber fable]

Bro is playing with sub 80 uptime andies

[verbal frost]

I'm saying Zoraal was like a 10:30 enrage

[amber fable]

Probably

[tall field]

I saw enrage in snake unreal too

[verbal frost]

while Zelenia is a 12 minute enrage

in a 1 totem fight

[wicked delta]

Even 80 uptime andies didnt see enrage

[tall field]

You can go out of ur way to see enrages

[verbal frost]

ye u can speed kill extremes

[thin fox]

bro was playing with people in shadowbringers final tier bis

[sinful brook]

No but you're trying to say that it had a DPS check worth talking about

[verbal frost]

that's literally the whole point

lol

[wicked delta]

Maybe 50 uptime andies

[verbal frost]

u can literally kill zelenia

7 mins in

[sinful brook]

But ex's just don't

[verbal frost]

if u want to

[thin fox]

I am not disputing that Zalenia doesn't have a check

I am disputing that Zoraal Ja has one

[tall field]

Btw what was the Suzaku Unreal dps check?

[sinful brook]

They're by nature designed to be doable by multiple glue eaters

[verbal frost]

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/Tpzt9QBFC6j3MPk4?fight=3&type=damage-done

[tall field]

Needed 8 else enrage?

[verbal frost]

I think this my longest queen eternal enrage

literally a higher dps check than m1s and m2s

[thin fox]

not crazy difficult but you couldn't afford as many deaths as Byakko

[verbal frost]

m4s was like 145k dps check btw

fyi

but maybe I'm crazy who knows

[wicked delta]

Yeah you had to kind of try for Suzaku

[tall field]

Lets take an actual unreal

[verbal frost]

suzaku had actual dps check

[tall field]

snake

[wicked delta]

While Byakko you can actually afk

[verbal frost]

if u had dps dying in suzaku

[tall field]

tiger was

[verbal frost]

it was cooked

[wicked delta]

Lol

[verbal frost]

suzaku was fun

suzaku mechs weren't even boring imo

actual fun mechs

[thin fox]

I never did Seiryu because I hate the adds phase so shrug

[verbal frost]

like yeah a bit dated but they were fun

suzaku didn't feel like a outdated fight since it was unique

[wicked delta]

I did Seiryu in mentor roul

[tall field]

Imagine dying to adds phase

[wicked delta]

Thiught that shit was straight up buns

[thin fox]

I don't think it's too hard I just think they're boring

[verbal frost]

Seiryu I can't actively hate on

[wicked delta]

Never did the unreal as a result

[verbal frost]

the only unreal I did i will actively say is garbage is byakko

[tall field]

Seiryu was PF friendly

[verbal frost]

why do people say thordan unreal is bad?

[tall field]

PF

[verbal frost]

Isn't thordan unreal acclaimed to be one of the greatest extremes ever?

[thin fox]

Thordan is more people hate the pf experience than the fight itself

[verbal frost]

I never did it myself

[alpine plover]

it needs more than 1 neuron

[wicked delta]

Thordan was fun

[alpine plover]

which is already too much

[shy obsidian]

🍿

[alpine plover]

for pf

[tall field]

Thordan Ex is a rly fun fight

[verbal frost]

you can't rlly factor PF like to much

[tall field]

I did in Mentor Roulette

[verbal frost]

like for necron

[amber fable]

Thordan unreal was one of the better ones

[verbal frost]

beisdes pf being horrible

[tall field]

I cleared and loved it

[wicked delta]

I actually miss Thordan unreal lol

[verbal frost]

I jut don't think necron is a fun fight

but that's just my opinion

[tall field]

But PF being PF

[thin fox]

Thordan was harder on release than in unreal because part of what made Thordan difficult was how the jobs worked at the time. e.g. Thordan has a decent amount of outgoing damage and it was released in a time where healers had cleric stance.

[verbal frost]

necron is a slow and boring fight

I would take zoraal and zelenia over necron any day

[thin fox]

Nowadays it's not even harder than the Endwalker extremes it released alongside.

[wicked delta]

Who the fuck wakes up and thinks Necron is their favorite fight

[thin fox]

But I still enjoyed it.

[verbal frost]

Necron is just not good bruh

[tall field]

Idk, msq andies?

[verbal frost]

I thought arkveld was better

[wicked delta]

You have to actually be drinking kool aid

[verbal frost]

and arkveld was mid

[thin fox]

Arkveld is fun

[verbal frost]

but arkveld is more fun to play b/c it's fast at least

[wicked delta]

Necron normal is hot ass too

[thin fox]

Arkveld is a good example of a fight that doesn't have to be hard to be fun

[verbal frost]

necron normal is lame

they made it too easy

at least zelenia normal was hard

u have randos dying in the roulettes constantly

[tall field]

People complained about this arkveld

Its too hard

[verbal frost]

who the fuck is dying to necron normal?

[tall field]

My FC cannot clear

[alpine plover]

i did necron with static but ngl if the 4 2 3 mechanic that i forgot the name of didn't exist, it would have been super easy and people would enjoy it

[amber fable]

I did it once with duty support..i genuinely dont even remember what mech necron has

[verbal frost]

I'm not gonna act like necron is braindead easy like most extreme

it's not u have to actually think

[tall field]

Relentless yea

[verbal frost]

I just don't like it even if it's hard

[tall field]

Thats the PF mechanic wall

[thin fox]

I like parts of Necron but it should've gone further. e.g. I like the sent to Brazil punishment and think it should've been utilised for a mechanic. Something where people have to get sent away on purpose.

[verbal frost]

which is rare I usually like more challenging fights

[wicked delta]

He does pants grab i guess

[thin fox]

Necron as it stands is just in out pairs stacks for 10 minutes

[verbal frost]

how would y'all rank the extrmes?

btw not to hate on extremes I think ex6 will bring us back to the promised land

they never miss with ex6 just look at the track record

[alpine plover]

the best extreme is valigramanda from dt

anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong

[verbal frost]

sophia suzaku emerald weapon golbez

[tall field]

Mountain Buster is peak

[verbal frost]

they never miss

[tall field]

Mountain fire sorry

[verbal frost]

good take bro

[wicked delta]

Idk about ranking them but I liked EX2 the most because that shit was easy af to farm

[tall field]

Thats only reason to me though

[verbal frost]

ex1 is fun

and the dps check isn't a laughable joke

like zelenia or necron

so I fw it

like ye I'm not trying to say ex1 / ex2 had hard dps checks

but at least the fucking enrage was not 12 minutes into the fight

valigarmanda was a fast fight the enrage would be like

[tall field]

Tsuku Unreal is 11mins btw:)

or the ex was

[thin fox]

Difficulty: Sphene > Zalenia > Arkveld > Necron > Valigarmanda = Arkveld > Zoraal Ja
Enjoyment: Sphene > Valigarmanda > Arkveld > Zalenia > Zoraal Ja > Necron

[tall field]

Maybe the unreal will follow suit?

[wicked delta]

Sphere

[verbal frost]

Tsuku is a good normal so if the extreme is trash I would be shocked

[wicked delta]

Listen to me

[verbal frost]

Sphene was cool but they could've went harder tho I still like it

4d hole in the wall or some shit

ykwim

[wicked delta]

I did Sphene’s hardest mech day 1 and then just didnt clear

Lol

[verbal frost]

4d hole in the wall

would've been peak mechanic

[alpine plover]

all other extremes suck somewhere in some way

zoralja is ... idk what to even say it's just a pain idk lmao
sphene
zelenia is fking blinding me but i feel like it's okay
i didn't do arkveld yet
necron like i said besides the one mechanic where it's 4 2 3 it's okayge as a fight

[wicked delta]

Not bc I couldn’t I just didn’t go back in

I got bored

[tall field]

Sphene Ex is hard because the wipe potential is a lot

[verbal frost]

why y'all rating zoraal ja low?

that fight was fucking lit be fr

[wicked delta]

Zelenia is probably the worst extreme to me

Because I am colorblind

[thin fox]

Tsukuyomi isn't a bad extreme but this was still the part of the game where they think that just because they do some bullshit in normal that it means it must be in the extreme so you have a random nothingburger adds phase that just pads time in the fight

[verbal frost]

fairs

[tall field]

Fck up Meteors everyone dies
Fckl up coronation many can die
Fck up idk ice and well GG

[wicked delta]

I cant see a single mech bruh

[verbal frost]

zoraal ja was fucking lit yo

[thin fox]

And unfortunately they don't really kick this habit until Endwalker

[wicked delta]

The roleplay mech was kinda trash yeah

Nobody wanted adds in Tsuku EX llmfao

[thin fox]

It's good for the narrative / normal but it has no business being in the extreme at least in its current state

If they actually did something with it that'd be fine

But it's just

The adds phase

[alpine plover]

zoralja imo is that one type of fight where you just dont like the fight but you can't really find out why

[thin fox]

From normal

[tall field]

Tsuku Ex comet phase is the LC1 of Tsuku imo

[wicked delta]

They copy pasted that shit

[alpine plover]

[tall field]

the wall

past that better it clears

[thin fox]

Well my problem with Zoraal Ja is that it just feels like an Endwalker fight

[tall field]

Enrage wise i feel it will be 11-12mins

[thin fox]

hitbox too big

ruins all the mechs

[tall field]

as Tsuku EX was around there

[verbal frost]

yo how tf do I check dps checks on fflogs?

because I swear zoraal ja dps check was not a joke like that

[wicked delta]

Zoraal Ja is fun to farm but as a fight its a huge meme

[verbal frost]

it was actually respectable for the time

[alpine plover]

i can't even say why i dont like zoralja i simply dont lmao

[amber fable]

Dt bosses in general has big enough hitbox that melee downtime is irrelevant

[verbal frost]

I'm trying ot check this shit rn

[wicked delta]

I feel like I struggled more with Hydaelyn normal than Zoraal Ja EX

[thin fox]

Zoraal Ja actually had me super nervous about the Dawntrail high content because of how big his hitbox was

like oh they learned literally nothing

[tall field]

Ebven her Ex is the best ew extreme imo

[amber fable]

Turns out it doesnt matter still

[thin fox]

he was an exception though

[tall field]

Alongwith Golbez ofc

[wicked delta]

I think her EX is pretty trash

[tall field]

I only did 2 and 7 on content

Rest unsynced so

[wicked delta]

I’ll agree on Golbez though

His EX was pretty aight

[tall field]

ye

[verbal frost]

zoraal ja was good

u gotta replay it

zoraal ja had actual fun mechs

for an extreme

there wasn't no bullshit also

[wicked delta]

I did that shit 100 times no thank you

[verbal frost]

well there was the conga shit

but wasn't that the intended way?

[thin fox]

but yeah idk where you're getting this meme from that Zoraal Ja had a 'respectable dps check' lol

[verbal frost]

I'm just comparing it to like

necron and zelenia

bro necron literally release with like

160k dps check

in fucking 7.3

[amber fable]

None of em had check

[verbal frost]

fucking 7.3 bro

minIL 740

[tall field]

thats fine

[verbal frost]

wtf are we doing?

[thin fox]

I did Zoraal Ja like 3 days after the expansion came out and it did not have a dps check brother

[verbal frost]

170k at least

like be fr

[tall field]

I dont see Ex in the point of a savage player

[verbal frost]

dancing green dps checkw as like 175k

or smth

[tall field]

Or someone who raids

[wicked delta]

I did Zoraal Ja day 2 and we never saw enrage

[tall field]

I see it from an MSQ ANdy lol

[verbal frost]

first floor savage is same as extreme difficulty

or similar

[tall field]

their pov

[verbal frost]

it just has dmg downs

so u have to think about the dmg downs imo

extreme literally has no dmg down

[thin fox]

first floor savage also does not have a dps check

[verbal frost]

yes

that's what I'm sayin

[tall field]

M1S never had yea

[thin fox]

extreme has never had a dps check

[verbal frost]

at least make some extremes at least the off-patch ones

[tall field]

P9S too to a degree

Idk M5S

[verbal frost]

do u remember

hades extreme?

[amber fable]

I had 19 damage down with 2 prnage on my week 1 m5s clear

[verbal frost]

barb extreme?

these had actual dps check

[thin fox]

even patch extremes don't have dps checks they just hit harder because you're closer to the minimum ilvl

[verbal frost]

what happened?

[amber fable]

Dps check where

[thin fox]

like with Golbez the problem wasn't "people hit enrage" the problem was people just wiping to mechanics

[tall field]

^

[verbal frost]

extreme will never have

[amber fable]

Gale wipes

[tall field]

And people like that approach more

[verbal frost]

dps check

[amber fable]

Meteor wipes

[verbal frost]

3rd - 4th floor savage

[tall field]

Engagament>>> DPS Checks

[verbal frost]

that's just bad for the game lets be serious

[tall field]

they dont want abyssos again

[verbal frost]

but do u want your first clear to be rewarding and not just cheese it

yes 100%

let me show u my first necron clear

[thin fox]

idk let me show you any ex clear ever

[verbal frost]

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/azL2Mw4QfhBV1CFH?fight=85&type=summary

[tall field]

Abyssos imo is their case study of how people wont like too strict dps checks

[verbal frost]

all these deaths

[thin fox]

I mean again I'm not disputing that Necron does not have a dps check

[amber fable]

Only m8s was tuned harder

[verbal frost]

and we clear 30s before the actual enrage

[thin fox]

You do not need to convince me

I am convinced!

[verbal frost]

how is this good balance?

[thin fox]

I was convinced before I even entered this conversation

[verbal frost]

if we actually want to prep players for savage

[thin fox]

I am just saying this is how extremes have basically always been

[verbal frost]

at least make the dps check somewhat comparable to first floor

we shouldn't be getting a clear with 13 fucking deaths even in extreme

[tall field]

p8s tier or easier

[verbal frost]

not even on par with first floor

[thin fox]

you could never clear first floor savage week 1 with 10 deaths

[tall field]

Post Nerf p8S i mean

[amber fable]

P8s I meant

[thin fox]

surely

[verbal frost]

but necron dps check is like 160k

[thin fox]

[verbal frost]

and m5s dps check is like 175k

[amber fable]

My brain goes to m

[fierce matrix]

The only dont want abyssos cause the class balancing was bad

[verbal frost]

it's just a disrespect to the playerbase honestly

they think we are trash

[thin fox]

you could clear m5s/m1s/p9s/p5s/etc. with a lot of deaths

[fierce matrix]

DPS checks should be on more casual content

[amber fable]

Yes they are

They aint wrong

[fierce matrix]

Makes players actually learn how to play the game

[amber fable]

[verbal frost]

Ik people say Extreme is casual

[thin fox]

I learned recently that Hades has a dps check lol

[verbal frost]

It's not

[tall field]

Meso Terminal Boss 2:

SE PLEASE STOP MAKING BOSSES HARD

[verbal frost]

Extreme is literally in the high-end duty

section

it's more midcore ppl just consider it casual

[thin fox]

the enrage cast is super anticlimactic because I think they never expected people to see it

[amber fable]

So is unreal

[verbal frost]

it has actual strats

[wicked delta]

Do you fw Hades normal enrage

[verbal frost]

They say

[amber fable]

Is ultima unreal high end

Lol lmao

Even

[verbal frost]

Chaotic is 24 man extreme

[fierce matrix]

Yes ez

[verbal frost]

at least Chaotic has an actual dps check

if enough ppl die

[thin fox]

Chaotic is the same thing

problem was rarely dps

[fierce matrix]

The bare minimum is that people should be pressing their buttons

[thin fox]

it was just mechanics

[fierce matrix]

Ik crazy take

[verbal frost]

ye but at least the dps check is there

so u don't get underserved bullshit clears

where half the instance dies at one point

[thin fox]

ok well every extreme has a dps check if you have "enough" deaths

[verbal frost]

I just showed u proof

[tall field]

Too hard
My glam too pretty not to look at bruh

[verbal frost]

it's not

look at this bro

and this was 30s before dps check

necron

[fierce matrix]

Ive had 20+ deaths in an EX

[thin fox]

there are probably worse chaotic logs tbh

I've seen shit

[fierce matrix]

Okay

[fierce matrix]

Tbf

[verbal frost]

shit a joke man

it's a joke

[wicked delta]

Yeah ive seen (and been in) some horrid chaotic runs

[fierce matrix]

Off savage patch EX trials are gonna be harder to balance

[wicked delta]

And we cleared anyway

Shruge

[verbal frost]

why even make necron 2 totem atp

just make all extreme 1 totem if they will be easy

at least they will stay active longer

[thin fox]

idk why you keep talking about Necron literally no one is disputing the nature of its dps check

[verbal frost]

only extreme that actually warrnated 2 totems was Sphene

this expac

and Arkveld cuz u could sell the mount

[wicked delta]

Right like hang it up man

[verbal frost]

so fuck it why not easy gil farm

[wicked delta]

😭

[verbal frost]

mb it seem like we not even debating anymore we all just agree

[amber fable]

I think all ex should give 4 totem

[verbal frost]

u gotta think aobut it though

if u give more totems for an extreme

[amber fable]

I hate farming same shit 50 to 99 times

[tall field]

Ex should ALWAYS drop ,mounts

[verbal frost]

and the extreme is not hard enough relative to totem

[fierce matrix]

People with savage bis are gonna burn through the checks on an off patch, whereas you wont have savage bis to supplement that. Then if you require savage bis or close to it, then you kinda fuck up people who dont do savage as much but wanna do ex

[tall field]

Like our raids

[thin fox]

brother no one was ever debating whether Necron had an easy check

[verbal frost]

the extreme will die

VERY FAST

[fierce matrix]

HELLL no

[verbal frost]

look at necron

that shit died in PF

SO FAST

[wicked delta]

99 totems is terrorist choice

[verbal frost]

compared to Zelenia for example

[fierce matrix]

They need to make EX 1 totem

All of them

[verbal frost]

all extreme should be 1 totem

imo

you have a whole expnasion to farm them

[fierce matrix]

PF dies wayyy too quickly

[verbal frost]

^

[tall field]

The actual comment that makes sense

EX shouldnt be seen in the POV of a raider with BiS

[verbal frost]

^

@fierce matrix you get it bro

[fierce matrix]

And its a fucking cosmetic

[verbal frost]

if u are actively trying to pf this shit

[alpine plover]

i read this as people with bis will burn through calories

[verbal frost]

it dies in fucking

[alpine plover]

[verbal frost]

1-2 WEEKS

NECRON WAS LITERALLY DURING 7.3

[fierce matrix]

Yep

[thin fox]

what are you talking about lol

[verbal frost]

THE MAIN HIGH-END CONTENT WAS Q40

[fierce matrix]

Its really bad

[verbal frost]

and that shit was dead in PF

2 WEEKS IN

[thin fox]

literally Necron pfs every day

[verbal frost]

let me show u

the statistics

[tall field]

Yesterday I saw 3 necron pfs o

[verbal frost]

holdup bro

[tall field]

Wdym

[verbal frost]

okay but

[amber fable]

Q40 was dead because it was basically criterioned

[verbal frost]

sure there will always be pfs

[thin fox]

yes please show me what the NA party finder looks like in the middle of the fucking night

[verbal frost]

but did u see how much

[amber fable]

Hard content

[verbal frost]

ex1-ex4 was active

[fierce matrix]

3-4 pfs a day vs the 40 on week 1-2

[amber fable]

No reward

Dead

[verbal frost]

EX1-EX4 was so active

10+ pfs constantly

every day

[fierce matrix]

I literally couldnt get into parties cause all tank slots were full

[alpine plover]

there's not much reason to do necron nowadays

[tall field]

Arkveld PF is lesser Yes

[trim frost]

mmmphfgh

[tall field]

But Necron is still

Necronning

[verbal frost]

I'll show u the clear rates

it's awful rn bro

[amber fable]

Theres also that players unsubbed

[fierce matrix]

Arkveld died even quicker cause the mount was purchasable

[amber fable]

So less player

[thin fox]

tbf not much reason to play the game rn anyway because 7.3 forgot to add content

[tall field]

[amber fable]

Especially those who probably do high end

[verbal frost]

can we agree

7.3 patch is over

so these are basically final

[amber fable]

Off patch lull will be over tomorrow

[verbal frost]

NCERON AND ARKVELD NOBODY PLAYS THEM

[trim frost]

nahh 30 mil for an extreme level alliance raid is crazy

[verbal frost]

like do u see what I mean

it's a horrible trend imo

[tall field]

Eh cant believe too much of it

We dont know not logged but cleared

[verbal frost]

and it's not like

[thin fox]

I can't believe the extremes that have been out for a year longer have more clears

[verbal frost]

sphene --> zelenia is that much of a dropoff

[tall field]

unless it pulls from the achievements

[verbal frost]

Sphene --> Zelenia is a clear dropoff

of 20k players

Zelenia --> Necron is a clear dropoff

of 65K players

[thin fox]

yeah because Zalenia also came with a new raid

[verbal frost]

awful trend IMO.

[thin fox]

there are so many compounding variables you're kind of ignoring here

[verbal frost]

tell me

[trim frost]

me when the extremes that came with the expansion have more clears than the patch extremes 🤯🤯🤯🤯 i am very intelligent 😎😎😎😎

[distant knoll]

dead game xd

[verbal frost]

ok we can just go to endwalker extremes

and u will see a different trend

btw

[thin fox]

and if the theory is that "no one is doing Necron because of its dps check" then why do any of the extremes have clears incl Zalenia which is the one you are also complaining about wrt its dps check

[tall field]

Because odd patches rly need something interesting for ppl to sub

[tall field]

did 7.3 Do that

[verbal frost]

explain this btw

[tall field]

Idk

[verbal frost]

explain this then

why does golbez have so many clears

[fierce matrix]

But also like....why should mounts be just easily gotten and guaranteed. Its a cosmetic. We have grindy mounts in the game, and no one complains cause thats the point. And its just repetitive shit. Genuinely you should have to work or get insanely lucky for an EX mount. 2 totem kills PF faster, no matter when that is and we can disagree but factually more people get done faster and that means less PFs are up. Thats the truth of it, no matter when or where that is. Its a cosmetic mount, you dont deserve cool cosmetic mounts just by killing a piss easy fight 25 times im sorry

[verbal frost]

the trend is way better

more consistent

[tall field]

Maybe 7.5 will be different

[verbal frost]

the only low clear extreme was rubicante

[tall field]

Due to BST and BLU content

[verbal frost]

and ppl called that fight ass I believe

so I'm not surprised

was rubicante 1 totem or 2?

[tall field]

And their idea to backload the good stuff

Lets see

[thin fox]

I'm noticing a huge dropoff from Barb (6.2) -> Rubi (6.3) which interestingly mirrors Zalenia (7.2) -> Necron (7.3)

so

[alpine plover]

dude i forgot we should see bst this expansion

[thin fox]

the trend is actually the same

[tall field]

And ofc North Horn

[thin fox]

lol

[alpine plover]

[tall field]

Forgot North Horn

[verbal frost]

yes

u are right

but wasn't rubiacnte a poorly recieved fight

[fierce matrix]

Rubi was a dogshit fight

Prob the worst ex in a while

[verbal frost]

while barb and golbez are some of the best

[fierce matrix]

I think its the worst ex ive done tbh

[tall field]

Na cant be sorry

[thin fox]

again there are other variables you should be considering

[tall field]

YOu got to beat Limitless Blue Ex

[fierce matrix]

Okay

[thin fox]

anyone who wants to raid is probably going to grab an ex weapon

[fierce matrix]

True

[versed kayak]

golbez is just waiting room

[fierce matrix]

Nvm

[wicked delta]

Do you fw stand and let thing resolve

[verbal frost]

guess how many totems

[thin fox]

but there's no reason to get the weapon from the odd patch extreme

[verbal frost]

rubicante was btw

[thin fox]

unless you want it for glam

[fierce matrix]

I purged that our of mt fucking memory

[versed kayak]

the first 5 mins are so boring

[thin fox]

I'm not saying this explains

ALL of it

[verbal frost]

RUBICANTE 2 TOTEMS

2 TOTEMS

[thin fox]

but you are ignoring a lot of variables here

[fierce matrix]

Stand still and let thing resolve for 50s

[thin fox]

that are deeply important to how people engage w this content

[fierce matrix]

LETS FUCKING GOOO

[verbal frost]

ik what u mean

but u can't ignore the trends also

but I get it

[thin fox]

I AM DESCRIBING

THE TREND

[verbal frost]

ye but a trend is not fully either or our thing

poorly designed 2 totem fight = dead fight

[trim frost]

guy who didn't pass statistics 1

[verbal frost]

notice how

golbez was 2 totem

well recieved fight challenging fight

and MORE people played it

compared to rubicante 2 totem

[proper cave]

[verbal frost]

poorly recieved fight easy fight everyone got the clears first 2 weeks and abandoned the fight

[fierce matrix]

I mean i said it here, the whole crux of the argument is that 2 totem DOES effect pf no matter when it is or not. You cant deny that it does effect it in some way and making it 1 totem would give more life to the fight and 2 totem takes away how long it lasts

[verbal frost]

W sqex

[verbal frost]

mhm

[thin fox]

ok? golbez even patch fight. golbez weapon is used for anabaseios. rubicante weapon is not used for anything.

[verbal frost]

golbez is a outlier

golbez was a 2 totem fight that actually deserved to be 2 totem

[tall field]

Dont talk about anab weapons
WHO IN THE RIGHT MIND MADE TOME WEAPON HAVE SKS I fumed so badly

[verbal frost]

hard fight with a prevelant dps check if shit goes south

[tall field]

😭

[verbal frost]

u can't make fucking mid like necron

and expect it to not die in 2 weeks

let's be real

[thin fox]

if your argument is about whether a fight is going to die or not, then this data is irrelevant. this is measuring total character clears, not how often people cleared it. a fight that 100k people do once is more dead than a fight 20k people do 100 times.

[fierce matrix]

Me and my cotank fought over who would take the tome weapon cause we didnt want sks and we just gave it to our healer week 3

[verbal frost]

it's unique clears tho

[fierce matrix]

[verbal frost]

not repeat clears

[thin fox]

yes

unique clears

[verbal frost]

idk if u can factor in repeat clears

[thin fox]

so it doesn't measure how often people do a fight

[verbal frost]

but obv 1 totem has more repeat

[thin fox]

you cannot tell from this data

[verbal frost]

I mean trends right

[thin fox]

whether these fights lived or not

[verbal frost]

if more people are engaging with a fight

[tall field]

I had the 640 Weapons for soo longg

[verbal frost]

it's probably more active in pf

[tall field]

Until relic put me out of my misery

[trim frost]

the voices told me therefore it must be true

[verbal frost]

I think if EX6 is like

actually well designed for a 2 totem

[fierce matrix]

Cooly, they have a point tho. The argument isnt "will the fight be done once" its "how long will it last". You cant really move the goalpost there

[verbal frost]

it will be very active

everyone that was playing this patch

let's be real bruh

NECRON AND ARKVELD dead in pf under like 2 weeks

it's horrible for latecomers

[thin fox]

I literally got people their first clear of Arkveld today

and then farmed

[fierce matrix]

If 20k people kill a fight but they all do 99 runs vs 100k people kill it and only 20k people do 99 runs, did it last just as long

[verbal frost]

like

the first 4 extremes

they were literally more popular than savage honestly

relative tho

but ppl was playing them constantly

[thin fox]

Having more unique clears doesn't necessarily mean they'll live longer. An even patch extreme like Golbez or Doom Train will naturally have more unique clears from people who primarily engage with extremes to do raiding.

[verbal frost]

ye but u are using like

"I help people clear"

[thin fox]

If you only care about savage, you're going to do the even patch extremes for gear and not odd patch extremes.

[verbal frost]

compared to me who has been searching pf for the past 2 weeks for parties during active hours

either FRU or arkveld ex

and arkveld is just dead as shit

and necron

[fierce matrix]

Tbf

[verbal frost]

but I got necron totems fast b/c it just shouldn't be a 2 totem fight

[fierce matrix]

Its wayyy off patch

[verbal frost]

ik

but even like

[fierce matrix]

You need to do this in the first month

[verbal frost]

1-2 months ago

shit was dead

[fierce matrix]

Every ex ends like this

[thin fox]

I am not even arguing at this point whether or not the fights are dead, I am simply saying that

[fierce matrix]

Yes

[thin fox]

this data

does not measure that

[fierce matrix]

Even 1 month in the patch it dies quickly

[verbal frost]

trust bro

it does

[amber fable]

Life of every high end content

[verbal frost]

just more ppl engaging

with the fight

like u can use the same argument

for this savage tier

what savage tier feels more active

LHW or CW?

[thin fox]

they felt roughly the same for me

[verbal frost]

feeled*

[verbal frost]

ok this is fair

let me show u the stats now

[amber fable]

M8s was more deader to me

[fierce matrix]

Ive played this game for 3-4 full expansions, about 1 month in the ex trials die. The difference is that same drop-off happens a week or 2 earlier with the new totem amounts

[amber fable]

Anecdote and all

[verbal frost]

good observation

[fierce matrix]

And itll slowly die from that point

[amber fable]

But comparatively

[thin fox]

I mean doesn't bringing savage up go against your point? Doesn't CW having lower player counts as well suggest they are both possibly part of a larger data trend that just reflects the fact that people drop off over the course of the expansion?

[amber fable]

Pretty much this

[thin fox]

It's generally known that the game is at its most active when an expansion comes out.

[fierce matrix]

IT IS?

NO WAY

[trim frost]

@visual geyser im so fucking scared

[thin fox]

Because savage has nothing to do with this really

[fierce matrix]

This has gone way off track

[fierce matrix]

None of this matters LOL

[thin fox]

Yeah I'm not even sure what the point is

[fierce matrix]

Inx

[thin fox]

that's me

[fierce matrix]

Can you agree that 1 totem fights last longer than 2 totem fights

[visual geyser]

Managed to get into plat lol

[thin fox]

obviously yeah

[verbal frost]

just make them all 1 totem

[fierce matrix]

Yes

[verbal frost]

extreme fights should all be around the same length

[amber fable]

Noooooo

[fierce matrix]

Thats the origin of the argument