#endgame-lounge
wicked delta
verbal frost
Like we want all jobs to be played around equally
doesn't mean they should be the same
rapid whale
dawg ive said it before the last time you crashed out abt the exact same topic
could job balance be better sure
verbal frost
Some jobs should be better in certain fights.
rapid whale
end
rain geode
Like we want all jobs to be played around equally
I don't think having the jobs be exactly equal in play is actually desireable
wicked delta
My bad Stella ur cool
verbal frost
I don't think having the jobs be exactly equal in play is actually desireable
Nah like
I agree
wicked delta
verbal frost
but the term you are using is exactly
shy obsidian
problem is, the majority will gravitate towards a job if it even has a single hundredth of extra damage compared to other jobs 😭
rapid whale
yeap
verbal frost
That's what I was talking about Paladin earlier.
dull drum
problem is, the majority will gravitate towards a job if it even has a single hu...
this isnt even a ffxiv specific issue either
literally any game
verbal frost
Paladin is actually played a lot tbf.
shy obsidian
too true
dull drum
that has balance
shy obsidian
TOO TRUE
rapid whale
ppl play meta, it is what it is
verbal frost
But Paladin does what, like 2% less dps than DRK and GNB?
I think that is enough less damage to warrant it having a rez, or at bare minimum more healing / mitigation based moves.
But idk, call me crazy ig.
shy obsidian
Imagine we have another Abyssos scenario that genuinely puts machinist out of a job for two whole patches again
verbal frost
It's not realy ragebait.
rain geode
I dont actually think 2% is a meaningful amount of differnce in damage tbh
verbal frost
I think rezzing is very overvalued.
That's why Red Mage got the biggest buff this patch.
Square even admitted it themselves.
Red Mage is literally competing with Black Mage now, while having a rez.
I think Paladin makes a lot of sense to have a rez.
It used to have WHM requirement.
It uses holy / white magic.
If it already does less dps, why not give it one? Or at least some extra heals?
It has the worst invuln also.
Should put more emphasis on team based jobs.
wicked delta
Doing less than 2% damage than GNB/DRK doesn’t mean it needs a rez holy shit lmfao
dull drum
It has the worst invuln also.
depends on the fight
verbal frost
Red Mage is competing with black mage right now, while having a rez.
versed kayak
I'm starting to see the rage bait part now
dull drum
if holmgang cant get more uses than the other invulns then holmgang would be the worst
wicked delta
It doesn’t need a rez
versed kayak
2% is fuck all
rapid whale
they have had this pattern for a while
weird takes, ultimately their point is 'reaper should be stronger'
verbal frost
Red Mage is outperforming black mage in 3/5 FRU phases current patch while having a rez.
versed kayak
give reaper a rez too I guess, it's doing less damage than some other dps
verbal frost
is the difference minor? Yeah. But it still has a rez.
verbal frost
give reaper a rez too I guess, it's doing less damage than some other dps
Why should Reaper get a rez?
This is actual ragebait.
versed kayak
Why should Reaper get a rez?
it's doing less damage than other dps
verbal frost
So?
versed kayak
This is actual ragebait.
correct
verbal frost
Reaper is a faction in the game
wicked delta
Might as well make it more useful
wicked delta
Nobody cares about lore
loud nymph
if this isn't a video about lore from star trek TNG I'll be very sad
verbal frost
versed kayak
I'm well aware of the reaper lore lol
shy obsidian
imagine if they heavily leaned toward a support angle for paladin
more damage buffs and support tools (maybe even a revive if we're brave enough)
loud nymph
I am very sad
verbal frost
That's one of the arguments for why I think Reaper should have a raidbuff.
Since it is a actual faction in the game.
versed kayak
I was clearly not serious
shy obsidian
and uh
a viable Cover for once
please Square Enix i beg for Cover to be usable
versed kayak
but neither can you it you're suggesting pld should get a rez for a 2% damage difference lmao
trim frost
i think reaper should get rez /srs
dull drum
Since it is a actual faction in the game.
this is insane ragebait
verbal frost
but neither can you it you're suggesting pld should get a rez for a 2% damage di...
I think it absolutely should.
verbal frost
You don't want damage differences to be too oppresive.
If you make Paladin do like 5% less damage while having a rez, it will never be picked.
rain geode
I mean wouldnt RPR lore make it make sense for it to has a rez since death doesnt exist in the void?
shy obsidian
I don't think a job that heavily relies on a voidsent abosrbing aether would have a revive... voidsent are stingy af
verbal frost
Especially in fights with hard dps checks.
That's the issue you're not understanding imo.
versed kayak
How will a rez fix the "issue" of a 2% damage difference
verbal frost
That's literally
rapid whale
hard dps checks
verbal frost
why they buffed red mage
rapid whale
is the hard dps check in the game with us
verbal frost
Like
Look at red mage
pre 7.3
Shared the same raidbuff with Picto and Summoner
Picto is the BEST job in the game
If you don't need a rez, WHY play red mage?
Sure the dps difference was like
5-10%
nothing major
trim frost
while we're at it
wicked delta
Probably because the person likes the job
verbal frost
it was still enough to make red mage and summnoner have horrible pick rates
wicked delta
Crazy concept though
versed kayak
You're never gonna fix people chasing the meta
verbal frost
Ok?
versed kayak
everyone else will just play what they like
rain geode
Honestly give every job a rez
wicked delta
Yeah lets give everyone a rez
rain geode
wait phoenix downs exist
dull drum
um actually
shy obsidian
oh boy
dull drum
phoenix downs
verbal frost
I feel like you are just ignoring my point with rez mage man.
dull drum
yeah
wicked delta
Not in 8 mana
versed kayak
Yeah lets give everyone a rez
Criterion
dull drum
wicked delta
Mans
rapid whale
i have phoenix downs
dull drum
all jobs have resses if you consider phoenix odwn
verbal frost
my hands are really cold rn shit
shy obsidian
imagine if paladin got a ressurection skill
would that be too OP or something
verbal frost
Whatever man.
daring pine
If you don't need a rez, WHY play red mage?
because i like it
maybe stop being braindead and ragebaiting man
versed kayak
"Why play red mage?"
"because it's fun"
"but you're doing a whole 5% less damage"
"who tf cares"
verbal frost
<@&100464652139368448> If I'm out of line please tell me. Not trying to get in trouble. Was just trying to discuss the game. But I'm ragebaiting I guess.
I want to continue having a convo, but if I'm harming people I'll stop.
shy obsidian
i'm being dead serious btw
paladin is boring as hellllllllll
why not make it more exciting by having it learn more towards a supportive playstyle 👁️ 👁️
verbal frost
I mean come on, you don't have to be like that.
versed kayak
i'm being dead serious btw
paladin is boring as hellllllllll
why not make it mor...
please no, getting random PLDs using clemency on me in random duties while I'm at 80% hp is already bad enough
trim frost
can we get monk rez here too
alpine plover
what exactly happened
verbal frost
I think like...
kindred bison
Okay both y'all cool it while I figure out what the hell is happening
verbal frost
DRG / MNK should keep their raidbuffs.
robust shoal
resquiecat more like rezquiescat
rapid whale
rez a sleeping cat
shy obsidian
please no, getting random PLDs using clemency on me in random duties while I'm a...
now what if we made Clemency viable while ALSO not losing too much on DPS? 👁️ 👁️
idk how we'd achieve that but it's a nice thought experiment
verbal frost
Okay both y'all cool it while I figure out what the hell is happening
I just thought the convo was getting off topic / argumentative, so I pinged mods. I don't want myself or anyone else to get in trouble.
alpine plover
they were talking reaper triple enshroud and i skipped and now they silly idk (im not part of this btw)
verbal frost
i started playing tactics and monk has a rez
Seriously though
versed kayak
now what if we made Clemency viable while ALSO not losing too much on DPS? 👁️ �...
would be fun if only to see the healer strike people complain lmao
verbal frost
they can get like way more FF job identity. That's what I'm really hoping for 8.0.
shy obsidian
Like what if Clemency became a weaving option lmao
rain geode
👁️ 🫦 👁️ 🫱 🍿
alpine plover
phoenix down is actually a game changer tbh
verbal frost
I just think people are overvaluing rez.
shy obsidian
Wait do phoenix downs actually see use in savage content?
verbal frost
Paladin having a rez would not impact the balance much at all.
trim frost
no lmao
alpine plover
not in savage
trim frost
they can't be used in 8-man stuff
verbal frost
A tank having a raidbuff would impact it way more.
alpine plover
but in your average roulete
versed kayak
Like what if Clemency became a weaving option lmao
would be like curing waltz, not crazy healing but still okayish
verbal frost
They can even put paladin rez on a major cooldown.
like a 1 time rez, or something.
shy obsidian
would be like curing waltz, not crazy healing but still okayish
yeah, yeah
and if it's oGCD, it won't interfere with the damage rotation too much
verbal frost
I just think it would shake up the dynamic more.
None of the tanks have much identity right now.
kindred bison
wicked delta
Hi Cleave
kindred bison
Y'all are just throwing words around
kindred bison
Just stop being dumb all of you
verbal frost
I didn't use any insults the whole convo.
kindred bison
I ain't smacking anyone
trim frost
give monk clemency :3
daring pine
would be like curing waltz, not crazy healing but still okayish
this sounds like it'd be nice
alpine plover
shy obsidian
hell, that could be a fun little activity
paladin can get a bunch of support tools as oGCDs (that cost decent amounts of MP of course), forcing them to focus on their damage rotation AND their mitigations AND their teammates
verbal frost
Monk having a rez would be too much.
I don't think melee should have a rez.
But paladin def can.
trim frost
only if it's a 30s cast
kindred bison
PLD used to have rezz but only out of combat
alpine plover
like in wow?
verbal frost
IDK I just want a straight-up rez honestly.
shy obsidian
yes! i want paladin to lean into its more holy side
verbal frost
Even if it is like one time a fight.
kindred bison
It was cross class from CNJ.
alpine plover
the legendary cross class
wicked delta
Thank god they deleted that shit
verbal frost
We are supposed to get a 5th tank, anyways.
rain geode
I mean honestly without swiftcast Id be fine with PLD getting a normal rez but like it doesnt really change anything?
verbal frost
It would just shake things up.
wicked delta
Right like if ur healers have eyes then its another useless button paladin has
trim frost
make every job the same
shy obsidian
I mean honestly without swiftcast Id be fine with PLD getting a normal rez but l...
idk I just want paladin to be more than the "ranged" tank
wicked delta
trim frost
that'll shake things up too
verbal frost
Didn't Yoshida say he wanted to make jobs more unique tho
rain geode
It would be the kind of button I hit once in a dungeon when my Healer dies not exactly anything riveting
trim frost
everyone gets rez
verbal frost
Everyone getting a rez would just be bad.
verbal frost
Healers, RDM and PLD should be the only ones prob.
I think they confirmed SMN rez is gone pre 7.0 anyways.
shy obsidian
make every job the same
that's not what I'm trying to say.. i just wanna spice up paladin specifically
verbal frost
If you aren't tying summoner rez to Phoenix, there's really no point in having it.
That's the whole gimmick of Phoenix.
alpine plover
well they said they want to remove summoner ress but decided to keep it for dawntrail
wicked delta
I think paladin is great as it is right now
verbal frost
Yeah that's fine. Was just an idea.
alpine plover
i dont think we're getting more combat resses than healers and redmage
wicked delta
And thank god for that
verbal frost
I mean like I showed earlier.
A job with a rez is literally outperforming a selfish dps.
shy obsidian
wait imagine how funny it would be if summoning phoenix allowed a mass revive of some sort
really unbalanced, i know, but it would be funny as fuck
verbal frost
Well
wicked delta
Paladin is a tank already
shy obsidian
hmmm what other support tools can we give paladin, I wonder?
wicked delta
You can just zombie through so much bullshit if you have a paladin picking people up all the time
verbal frost
It's like the whole gimmick.
alpine plover
if you were comparing it with machinist that's not exactly a fair comparison
rain geode
A job with a rez is literally outperforming a selfish dps.
sure but I doubt its outperforming a selfish DPS if its actually casting rezzes
wicked delta
No
rain geode
hmmm what other support tools can we give paladin, I wonder?
honestly I think a long CD oGCD esuna like BRD has could be neat
shy obsidian
honestly I think a long CD oGCD esuna like BRD has could be neat
oh yeah that would be nice
dull drum
how do we... improve it
you want a joke answer or one i have a modicum of belief in
verbal frost
All I will say about Machinist.
wicked delta
Stella hates mch
shy obsidian
you want a joke answer or one i have a modicum of belief in
gimme your best shot
verbal frost
If you actually wanted it to like
verbal frost
become a strong pick
alpine plover
🥀
shy obsidian
I want genuine ideas
verbal frost
you just need to treat it like the phys ranged samurai.
versed kayak
honestly I think a long CD oGCD esuna like BRD has could be neat
for the three fights with an esuna
verbal frost
You need to give it a top five burst in the game.
rain geode
for the three fights with an esuna
well I am trying to come up with idea that arent broken
shy obsidian
for the three fights with an esuna
simple solution: MORE FIGHTS THAT ARE BASICALLY JUST ESUNAFESTS >:)))))))))))))))
dull drum
gimme your best shot
give it a dokumori or mug or something and then the mchs will just pass away in peace because they know thats all we can ever dream for
dull drum
and rework wildfire rn ig because its very antiquated in how it works
verbal frost
It's better than Dancer and Bard, sure.
But it's not that much stronger of a burst to warrant it being picked over them.
rain geode
I mean the "problem" with MCH is the idea of a "greedy Phys Ranged" is sorta at odds with itself
shy obsidian
give it a dokumori or mug or something and then the mchs will just pass away in ...
So do you want it to like... be a bit more unique compared to other damage debuffs? like a cone-shape like Dokumori or osmething?
verbal frost
Buffing the filler would just cause the same issue that black mage / viper has.
verbal frost
sure but I doubt its outperforming a selfish DPS if its actually casting rezzes
Yeah but when do you need to cast rezzes in high end content? Not very often when going for a clear.
dull drum
So do you want it to like... be a bit more unique compared to other damage debuf...
nah just copy paste it from ninja or some crap
SE doesnt have enough resources to make unique things
verbal frost
That's why everyone was just playing Picto which was a horrible time for the game.
Since it had the same raidbuff as SMN and RDM, literally no reason to play those jobs if trying to clear.
shy obsidian
ooh what if machinists had their own self-buff that they have to keep up like uh. samurai and viper
dull drum
i mean maybe? where would you even put it though
trim frost
what the fuck is sevv pont fur
shy obsidian
but more complicated to keep up or something
wicked delta
7.4
verbal frost
no clue man.
wicked delta
?
shy obsidian
i mean maybe? where would you even put it though
good question, actually
alpine plover
people dont play just the meta jobs
verbal frost
I agree.
shy obsidian
hmmm maybe uhhh idk
Air Anchor? nah it wouldnt make sense
wicked delta
Reaper mains on suicide watch
verbal frost
trim frost
not reading allat
rain geode
I was almost a RPR main
trim frost
i don’t wanna
verbal frost
That's the main reason why these things are discussed.
dull drum
Reaper mains on suicide watch
ever since dt launch 
shy obsidian
hmmm maybe the damage buff can uh
be attributed to the heat gauge or something?
verbal frost
RPR not even that bad
wicked delta
ever since dt launch <:omegaLUL:684442223227699240>
It’ll never get better for us
wicked delta
We will never see the light again
alpine plover
FRU is the biggest cherrypick you can have
tired egret
I only came here because of Reaper
verbal frost
The only fight Reaper actually shines in is FRU.
alpine plover
the discrepancy between jobs in FRU is massive
tired egret
and if I consider buying the game, I'll main that shit till I die.
wicked delta
Its so fucking over
shy obsidian
like idk
the damage buff can either cost heat gauge or gained if the heat gauge is maintained above a certain number?
verbal frost
RPR is underrated in m6s.
wicked delta
Why is there no reaper despairge emote
verbal frost
But the huge aoe buff was 7.3 after on-content.
But ye RPR does have nuclear aoe rn.
wicked delta
alpine plover
4 gauge dps will absolutely murder p3/p4 but will suck massive ass in p1 in fru
it's just how fru is
verbal frost
It's hard to call this bad tbh.
jade nimbus
But ye RPR does have nuclear aoe rn.
That's why they killed trash pack in criterion /s
verbal frost
Especially when you factor in +10% from Death's Design.
tired egret
soo at this point ingame
verbal frost
Absolute powerhouse AOE.
jade nimbus
Your aoe doesn't matter smh
wicked delta
Its bad when it doesn’t fucking CRIT
alpine plover
Its bad when it doesn’t fucking CRIT <:grrr:1255220438812852326>
mb
at least it's not a spell
tired egret
we got: Tanks, Shield Healers, Raw Healers, Magic DPS with DMG, Magic DPS with Raise, PhysRange with Buffs, Machinist, Melee DPS that are good at SingleTarget, Melee DPS that are better at AoE, BlueMage
verbal frost
I just think the single target enshroud stuff can use some potency buffs.
shy obsidian
so uh
about summoner
I want the summons to stay on the field for longer, but hmm
should they be controlled or should they mostly be auto attackers?
verbal frost
we got: Tanks, Shield Healers, Raw Healers, Magic DPS with DMG, Magic DPS with R...
ye
verbal frost
4 gauge dps will absolutely murder p3/p4 but will suck massive ass in p1 in fru
yup
I mean I think
alpine plover
we got: Tanks, Shield Healers, Raw Healers, Magic DPS with DMG, Magic DPS with R...
i think melees are in a decent spot altogether 
jade nimbus
so uh
about summoner
I want the summons to stay on the field for longer, but hmm...
Pet ai is ass, which is why they removed it
alpine plover
reaper is just slow start and it hurts them in fru start
rain geode
I think RPR's kit is fine just needs some small potency buffs or just make its raid but 5% because its so weird that its three
jade nimbus
Ans now it is only animations
alpine plover
but after that they are good
verbal frost
is even in phase 5 where you go into the phase with the max gauge possible
It's not even universally the stongest dps.
DRG / MNK / NIN are still arguably better even tho they are burst jobs.
So yeah it's slightly sad lol.
rain geode
There are some small QoL changes I would kill for on RPR tho
alpine plover
i mean sure but rpr is
verbal frost
but it doesn't
alpine plover
not that bad compared to others
verbal frost
which is a bit sad.
alpine plover
to the extent that mch is to brd/dnc
shy obsidian
like uh
were I to do a complete overhaul of summoner, I'd have all the summons on separate buttons and uh
a whole other skillset with attacks and skills that the summons can do within a 10-15 second frame while they're summoned or something
meanwhile the summoner themselve can do DoT attacks while the summons do most of the damage, I guess
verbal frost
well tbh
I think it's actually somewhat like that
rpr / vpr are actually pretty far below the others
in most fights
rain geode
like uh
were I to do a complete overhaul of summoner, I'd have all the summons o...
Less DoTs actually in the game plz
verbal frost
But I don't want to rant about Reaper and make it seem like I'm bias.
shy obsidian
what about just uh
DoT fields instead of a DoT debuff
jade nimbus
They already killed the majority of dots
verbal frost
I'm really not, I'm playing Samurai / Monk next tier anyways.
alpine plover
by like 500 dps compared to the others.
but it is tho 
verbal frost
well
that's rdps
go to cdps
it gets way closer because the reaper burst is weak
shy obsidian
I just want the summons to have actual purpose besides one beeeg boom
verbal frost
and yeah I know cdps is factoring in raidbuffs
alpine plover
ok for cdps it's just decent
verbal frost
but it shows how good jobs are in their ideal comps.
see
cdps is like
peak performance of a job btw.
shy obsidian
why do one beeg boom when you can do like FIVE beeg booms with a single summon
verbal frost
so that's the true balance metric
yeah it's new, but it's the one you should use for overall balance.
like when ppl were saying picto is op
they were citing cDPS instead of rDPS
shy obsidian
also uh
why does pet AI suck for the majority of games anyways
alpine plover
cuz pandora dies during first 3s of my burst window
rain geode
also uh
why does pet AI suck for the majority of games anyways
human brains are more complicated then computers
alpine plover
i think fru is not the best metric because of how the fight is
verbal frost
and jobs like drg / mnk / nin start with nothing
alpine plover
i think m8s might be better
verbal frost
do you get what I mean?
alpine plover
yes
shy obsidian
idk summoners are just sad in their current state
they need a more interesting rotation ASAP
rain geode
Didnt they rework SMN in the last expansion Im sure they'd loath to do it again
verbal frost
i think m8s might be better
the problem in savage is even worse
gauge jobs are always worse in savage
it's just how they are balanced
shy obsidian
i want the summons themselves to be more prominent, honestly
verbal frost
shy obsidian
like bahamut and phoenix linger on the field... it would be cool if the three stooges did too
verbal frost
this is why I think them buffing NInja was borderline insane this patch
but oh well I guess.
shy obsidian
also
gimme more carbuncle buttons please; Radiant Aegis aint enough
rain geode
even then isnt this still a differnt of like 5%?
verbal frost
I can't tell if you are trying to bait me or not, but yeah I think Summoner should just have more summons.
Shiva, Leviathan, Ramuh.
All that sauce.
They already did it with Clive.
wicked delta
Nope
You’re getting another Bahamut
And you will like it
The elusive piss Bahamut for next expansion
verbal frost
That's why I just ignore Summmoner at this point.
Genuinely what the hell are they thinking?
versed kayak
The elusive piss Bahamut for next expansion
perfect bahamut?
wicked delta
perfect bahamut?
Um
versed kayak
will he have j kick
wicked delta
Fuck
wicked delta
Radioactive Bahamut then
rain geode
perfect bahamut?
Bahamut prime
verbal frost
You can't give Ramuh, Shiva, Leviathan 100-110.
You have to give them during the 50-70 range.
Or else the pacing would be weird.
If you want higher level summons, well there are many ideas.
Alexander, Thordan, Susano, Lakshimi, Sophia, Zurvan, Sephirot, Eureka, Anima, Zodiark, Hydaelyn,
dapper zealot
Summon your best friend back from the dead :)
rain geode
they should give it a second rez
verbal frost
Can even get cool and make a full on knights of the round summon
like 7
but nah, we just get... whatever this shit is rn.
That's basically my whole issue with the game rn. They are just so unambitious and passive it's really demotivating. Square clearly has an addiction to money.
Ima go play Octopath Traveler now. Take care.
alpine plover
Summon midgarsormr
verbal frost
Is Nidhogg a primal? I forgot.
I don't think the dragons are technically primals.
But like fuck it honestly, I'm all for it. I don't really need a lore reason.
wicked delta
Nidhogg aint a primal
But you could probably manifest him as one
Like Bahamut lol
verbal frost
Would assume that's more of a Beastmaster thing, though.
dapper zealot
There's one dragon that's a primal, and he's your best friend
verbal frost
Apparently Mr. Ozma is working on Beastmaster, so it should be good no matter what.
wicked delta
All it requires is a line of crack (crystals) and hardcore belief so
rain geode
There's one dragon that's a primal, and he's your best friend
Summon Zenos
verbal frost
There's so much primals they can let us summon
It's really a shame
Magus Sisters would be underrated.
Ultima also.
rain geode
I mean they probably dont want you to summon something not from the MSQ
Although I suppose they have phoenix but y'know
verbal frost
The issue is mainly, they don't want us to summon anything right now.
😭
I could go more in-depth. But I think "Summoner should have more summons" isn't that much of an unpopular take.
rain geode
I mean it has 6 in a half that a bit
jade nimbus
I mean they probably dont want you to summon something not from the MSQ
Bahamut and Phoenix are side content btw
rain geode
Bahamut and Phoenix are side content btw
I mean actually fighting bahamut is side content but bahamut himself is most assuradly not side content
dapper zealot
and solar baja is from ????
rain geode
MSQ right whats his face summoned one
versed kayak
and solar baja is from ????
something something Hydaelyn
jade nimbus
I mean actually fighting bahamut is side content but bahamut himself is most ass...
Unless you're a 1.0 character you don't engage with bahamut in msq
rapid whale
and solar baja is from ????
mamool baha
lyric summit
and solar baja is from ????
this meme is from the future
you dont understand it yet
dapper zealot
MSQ right whats his face summoned one
Grim Fandango? That was lunar baja
jade nimbus
MSQ right whats his face summoned one
That's way after smn had a bahamut summon
rain geode
Unless you're a 1.0 character you don't engage with bahamut in msq
literally the opening cutscene of the game is bahamut
wicked delta
Yeah you don’t fight the actual Bahamut like ever in msq lol
jade nimbus
Point is, you're not really restricted to msq summons
jade nimbus
literally the opening cutscene of the game is bahamut
Which is why I said unless you're from 1.0
versed kayak
MSQ right whats his face summoned one
Fandaniel possessing Asahis body
verbal frost
I mean it has 6 in a half that a bit
For a job called summoner?
verbal frost
Blue Mage has more primal abilities. You can argue it feels more summoner:
versed kayak
but that was a lunar bahamut as Elysian mentioned
rain geode
Blue Mage has more primal abilities. You can argue it feels more summoner:
I dont play blue so whatever
rain geode
Which is why I said unless you're from 1.0
Im not from 1.0 the first cutscene the game showed me was bahamut showing up
verbal frost
Interesting.
wicked delta
Bruh
I just
Sprinted
For this train
Like Usain Bolt
I cant fucking breathe 😭
jade nimbus
Im not from 1.0 the first cutscene the game showed me was bahamut showing up
Ye, the cgi one, which is an evente your character doesn't take part in
rain geode
Ye, the cgi one, which is an evente your character doesn't take part in
Sure but he still directly important and shows up in the MSQ
jade nimbus
It is the same with Phoenix, you get it even if you don't do ARR raids just cause the aether of the summons is all over Eorzea
rain geode
It is the same with Phoenix, you get it even if you don't do ARR raids just caus...
I said this
jade nimbus
You could apply this excuse or another to any other summons
rain geode
Although I suppose they have phoenix but y'know
.
and honestly I think they should replace phoenix with another MSQ summon isntead
jade nimbus
Nah
It is pretty important to ffxiv lore
Like if I had my way, Alexander would have replaced solar bahamut
verbal frost
Honestly, it’s kind of a nothing burger. My bad.
jade nimbus
And we would have also a version of KoTR
verbal frost
Summoner feels more like a “arcanist” than an actual “summoner”, in my opinion.
rain geode
TBH I would have replaced Solar bahamut with Shiva and make it less of a summon and more of a transformation like shiva is in xiv
verbal frost
Just replace solar bahamut with Hydaelyn
It’s not hard
There are so many ways to prevent spoilers
They ultimately don’t care enough, it’s laziness.
rain geode
I dunno when Im constantly summoning guys I feel like a summoner
verbal frost
Having Hydaelyn and Zodiark as summons outweigh the spoiler potential. Which can completely be avoided with the right precautions.
torn kindle
Having Hydaelyn and Zodiark as summons outweigh the spoiler potential. Which can...
Make them the big fucking crystals
verbal frost
They can add an automatic spoiler filter in the settings. And have it turn off as you progress MSQ.
rain geode
They can add an automatic spoiler filter in the settings. And have it turn off a...
that sounds like so much work lol
verbal frost
Or if you want, you can turn it off if you really don’t care and want to see cool stuff.
jade nimbus
I mean, common simple suggestion was adding the other main trio of summons in the umbral phase (shiva, ramuh and leviathan instead of Ifrit, Garuda and Titan again)
verbal frost
that sounds like so much work lol
This is an MMO, everything requires work.
It’s really not that hard.
jade nimbus
Alexander and KoTR should be part of the kit too, cause they're two of the most iconic ff summons
verbal frost
Making the recent MSQ required a lot of work. Does it mean they were good? Fuck no.
rain geode
It seems like a massive waste of dev time to compensate for something you dont really need to do
rain geode
It needs to have summons.
and it does?
verbal frost
Why not add the two most important summons in the game.
rain geode
make sure your not on red mage by accident
verbal frost
You said summoner has 6 summons
Which is being generous let’s be honest.
It’s more like 5 summons / primals
rain geode
6 or 7 dpeending on if you count the bahamuts seperatly
Id say thats a lot of summons
verbal frost
Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Bahamut, Phoenix.
jade nimbus
It seems like a massive waste of dev time to compensate for something you dont r...
By this logic, they shouldn't change jobs or make new animations for them cause jobs are already OK as they are, so it is just a fallacy
verbal frost
These are the primals you can summon
verbal frost
By this logic, they shouldn't change jobs or make new animations for them cause ...
Exactly
I don’t know why as a consumer
You actively pay for the game
Why you don’t want things to improve and be better.
It will never make sense to me, this community.
You should always want things.
But back to my point
jade nimbus
Like, monk got some of their 123 animations in DT changed not cause they had to, but simply cause they wanted to and bring up to the current standard the older ones
rain geode
By this logic, they shouldn't change jobs or make new animations for them cause ...
sure but making the ability work seperate depending on people nearby having done the MSQ or not is silly
verbal frost
That’s 5 primals you can summon.
verbal frost
Like, monk got some of their 123 animations in DT changed not cause they had to,...
Most of the melees did and it was good.
People liked it.
rain geode
You should always want things.
I do I just think the things that you seem to want wouldnt be better for the game
verbal frost
Summoner max level is 100.
That’s 1 summon every 20 levels.
For a job called “summoner”
jade nimbus
sure but making the ability work seperate depending on people nearby having done...
Eh, I never said that, just that they should incorporate more summons
verbal frost
Blue mage can summon the power of almost every major primal in the game.
It’s like… what?
rain geode
Eh, I never said that, just that they should incorporate more summons
Thats fair I just would personally like it more if they kept to more early game stuff and stuff in the MSQ
jade nimbus
Like even the way they went about solar bahamut is lame asf
jade nimbus
Cause you can then just make a generic angel summon and say it is a recreation of hydealyn
verbal frost
But they will just add solar phoenix or something.
jade nimbus
Instead of bahamut but again
verbal frost
Cause you can then just make a generic angel summon and say it is a recreation o...
No
Just add hydaelyn egi
And make a spoiler filter that is a angel or something
rain geode
I think they should add Ramuh and Levi Shiva being one of the summons that went through people Makes it work less in my opinion
verbal frost
It’s simple
trim frost
are we still talking about this bruh
verbal frost
Yes. Want to join?
trim frost
fuck no
verbal frost
😂
rain geode
are we still talking about this bruh
I am physically incapable of not taking bait
verbal frost
It’s okay to disagree
trim frost
I am physically incapable of not taking bait
praying for you
verbal frost
But how is this bait?
verbal frost
We’ve presented evidence to you.
You are just denying it.
We’ve presented ways to implement these ideas.
It’s “too much work.”
rain geode
Fuck you mean evidence we're talking about what we would like a job to have
trim frost
https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-patrick-snatched-huang4evr-gif-23514011
i like the fisher discord tag being ¿<>< i think it’s cute
rapid whale
true!
rain geode
i like the fisher discord tag being ¿<>< i think it’s cute
thats actually awesome
verbal frost
Id say thats a lot of summons
I explained why 5 summons is not a lot. For a 12 year old job.
rain geode
I explained why 5 summons is not a lot. For a 12 year old job.
why you feel I feel like its plenty
wicked delta
I want fish
rain geode
I mean I would like 1 or 2 more maybe but for spoiler reasons I dont think it should be hydalen or zodiark
wicked delta
Are you a fish Bapple
rain geode
No
verbal frost
The core identity of summoner and summoning
Is using summons
You just have to understand the franchise to
rapid whale
nuh uh it's being exploited
rain geode
Is using summons
Which is what you do when you play summoner
rain geode
no
verbal frost
12 also
verbal frost
Which is what you do when you play summoner
Yeah but
All I’m saying is
Should they lean more into it? 100%.
I’m playing a game called octopath traveler right now
This fucking girl called h’aanit has more summons than xiv summoner, at level 8.
wicked delta
Honestly I think they would’ve if the pet system they made back then didn’t suck doodoo donkey balls
verbal frost
It’s embarrassing.
trim frost
brother
lyric summit
current summoner aesthetic is lame
trim frost
shes a beastmaster
verbal frost
Tbf
trim frost
r u like
verbal frost
Tbf T’ew
rain geode
Also your comparing a JRPG to a MMORPG
lyric summit
go back to ruin mage, at least it had its own theme
verbal frost
So I respect you for that
lyric summit
now its just, 1 of 4 elemental casters
verbal frost
If they want to add a dot mage, make it a completely new job imo.
verbal frost
shes a beastmaster
Yeah sorry
But like
She still summons beasts
It’s somewhat comparable.
trim frost
verbal frost
I guess a better example is Eupha, from Metaphor Refantazio.
lyric summit
single player turn based game character-specific design is surely comparable to multiplayer game real time combat class
verbal frost
Why is it always about bait.
verbal frost
single player turn based game character-specific design is surely comparable to ...
The thing is imo.
rain geode
single player turn based game character-specific design is surely comparable to ...
thats what I'm sayin'
verbal frost
XIV already has complex job design for other jobs which heavily leans into that identity.
Would say pictomancer is a good example.
Bard.
Dancer.
I’m just like— why can’t summoner have the same treatment?
This game I’m playing has a dancer also I think, I doubt it’s more interesting than XIV dancer.
rain geode
Its almost like certain types of games lend themselves better to differnt types of designs
lyric summit
it has the same treatment you're just not percieving it as such because of preconcieved notions and subjective ideas of what a summoner should look/play like
trim frost
don't waste your breath arguing with someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about it'll save you time and energy
verbal frost
That’s what I mean like
lyric summit
but its like. literally shitting out summons every 20 seconds
verbal frost
It’s embarrassing a single player game has more interesting design for a job
Than a multiplayer game.
verbal frost
don't waste your breath arguing with someone who clearly has no idea what they'r...
Can you stop being like this?
rain geode
don't waste your breath arguing with someone who clearly has no idea what they'r...
normally I would say something along the lines of "Im not doing anything anyway" but I actually kinda need to do laundry and clean my room so guess Ill do that
dull drum
didnt eupha suck ass in metaphor
dull drum
shes legit like ffxiv summoner
dull drum
shes legit like ffxiv summoner
sucks for the same reason, outclassed by others in the same field
verbal frost
😭
visual geyser
didnt eupha suck ass in metaphor
No?
verbal frost
Eupha was actually not that bad tho
visual geyser
lol
verbal frost
Her stat spread was good
visual geyser
Eupha was great
visual geyser
Yea pretty much
verbal frost
And I think Junah can buff the phys hitters so she’s good
visual geyser
But it’s still a turn based game so she’s good enough to have a slot
verbal frost
But Junah by herself is 100% weaker than Eupha
Ye
Metaphor is a game that progressively gets easier anyways, like every JRPG.
verbal frost
Metaphor actually has quite good balance
visual geyser
Yep
verbal frost
well the archetype system helps a lot in that regard
Yup
visual geyser
Towards the end hulkenberg was a fucking wall
verbal frost
She literally can’t die.
visual geyser
Paladin,dark knight
dull drum
heismay breaks the game near the end
verbal frost
She’s like lowkey the best character
If you want to never die
Oh ye Heismay had that op dodge shit I forgot
visual geyser
I could’ve made my heismay better
verbal frost
they all crazy in that game when u think about it
visual geyser
I was making him a ranged buffer and not an evade tank
verbal frost
So yeah I guess Eupha technically is the worst
dull drum
hes a necessity if you want to do the challenge of fighting ||louis at full power when he has 7-8 turns||
visual geyser
She’s also cute
verbal frost
Persona Summoner is like the coolest anyways
jagged aspen
i forget, i cant queue for DF while in exploration zones?
dull drum
the only problem with heismay is first run getting royal thief is a pain in the ass
verbal frost
i forget, i cant queue for DF while in exploration zones?
They need to add this lol
It’s so bad
visual geyser
They can’t
jagged aspen
well yea they cornered themselves
verbal frost
Maybe if they figure out a way to like
visual geyser
Exploration zones are actual instances lol
verbal frost
Swap / queue into another instance while in a instance
verbal frost
They def can
I mean bro these devs can do so many things
They really just don’t care it’s the square enix culture.
They are addicted to making money, which has became an addiction to not making money.
jagged aspen
when ff17 mmo with proper backend
rapid whale
blue protocol /s
verbal frost
If that game actually launched
It could’ve been real good
It had everything going for it.
It’s a shame.
dull drum
japan didnt really like it so we prob wouldnt have either
verbal frost
I really think Lost Ark could have been “the mmo” if it didn’t go down the p2w gacha arc.
dull drum
korean mmo
verbal frost
Because that game was amazing on release.
dull drum
its got the lifeblood in it
verbal frost
ye
visual geyser
Also botted like crazy
verbal frost
Lost ark was putting up NUMBERS.
wicked delta
I tried out lost ark
verbal frost
I mean holy shit lol.
wicked delta
Combat was actually pretty fun
rapid whale
lost ark is the epitome of stellar gameplay gated by p2w elements
wicked delta
But I like customization more than anything else so the way classes work in that game is 
rapid whale
but super hard gate keeping by the progression
visual geyser
Kinda annoying
verbal frost
And u can sea travel to like 100 different islands.
It was fucking wild
That’s why I think we should get more gun jobs
dull drum
i wish sega would just kill off pso2 already
verbal frost
Lost Ark had like 4 on release.
rapid whale
But I like customization more than anything else so the way classes work in that...
yet you play ffxiv /sarcasm
visual geyser
Like you can’t control yourself from self sabatoge
verbal frost
Like plz cbu3
wicked delta
yet you play ffxiv /sarcasm
Bitch
verbal frost
Like you can’t control yourself from self sabatoge
That’s why I think China is going to overtake shit.
China actually knows what they are doing lol.
And they are serious.
verbal frost
Lost Ark had like
rapid whale
wat
rapid whale
the caster is still an elf
rapid whale
o that one
robust shoal
Lost Ark combar is so good
rapid whale
it rly is
robust shoal
It was weather related or something
Aeromancer
rapid whale
i unironically almost died playing lost ark so much trying to keep up w/ whales as f2p
wicked delta
I picked slayer first lol
robust shoal
also artist as a supp, and now wild soul as a druid
verbal frost
Like lost ark is the prime example I will use.
As to how XIV combat can be way better.
The game literally had like 15+ complex specs on release.
wicked delta
Yeah I looked at artist next
verbal frost
Korean devs are actually good tho they just have an addiction to money / gacha.
It’s a shame
visual geyser
Was it balanced
robust shoal
wicked delta
Its like ok but I wanted to remain hot slayer lady
verbal frost
I mean tbh
verbal frost
Like if RPR was the worst job but had a killer rotation it would still be my main
I bet that’s how machinist players feel
Honestly
visual geyser
Not by the looks of it
rapid whale
LMAO stella
verbal frost
I think I made 2 lost ark chars
This
And this.
Man gunslinger was so fucking cool. I really need that in XIV.
It was like pure shooting.
You switched between dual pistols, assault rifle and sniper
In your actual rotation
Some insane shit tbh
robust shoal
Now Lost Ark has uhhh 160 different specs
robust shoal
Ark grid gives each DPS class engraving three different specs
craggy marsh
Koreans trying to not make women only wear heels and highheels challenge
verbal frost
Even for XIV I’m thinking the sweet spot is like
craggy marsh
Difficulty impossible
robust shoal
24 dps classes x 2 engravings x 3 specs, plus 4 support specs, plus 4 support dps specs x 3
craggy marsh
I remember when people said lost ark wasnt p2w it was "pay to progress faster" as if that's any better
verbal frost
7 melees, 6 casters, 6 phys ranged. 6 healers, 6 tanks
I’d be fine with something like this honestly.
robust shoal
excepr ark grid is the worst progression system known to man
rapid whale
Koreans trying to not make women only wear heels and highheels challenge
dont forget wearing so little clothing you'd be arrested for it at a mall
rain geode
shouldnt there be about as many DPS as Casters and Phys ranged combineed?
since you need 2 melee
verbal frost
That’s the thing tbh
I think they should normalize
The flex spot being anything instead of 2 melee
They already tried to do that with Picto / Black Mage
rapid whale
blm picto supremacy /s
verbal frost
But it was like crazy op on release
robust shoal
It's wk3 of new raid and I think I'm roughly 14 weeks away from actually activating my new sub-spec
verbal frost
I see double phys ranged sowmtiems
Honestly I think DNC and BRD together isn’t awful?
rain geode
Nah I disagree 2 melee 1 phys range and 1 mage I think is the way they should balance it around
verbal frost
They really just gotta make the phys ranged tax way less
robust shoal
granted I could get lucky and activate it next week except there's another layer of gold spending+rng to activate your rng drop so probably be a couple more weeks regardless
🙃
rain geode
because with supports that give you an equal number of melee and ranged in the party
4 Melee guys and 4 ranged guys is a nice even number to design mechanics around
verbal frost
The flex spot should be like actual flex tho
They can do a lot with the flex spot
It kind of controls your whole comp
If you can run 3 ranged, they might have room to add a melee healer.
They can already add a melee healer tbh, they just need to give it decent disengage options.
versed kayak
a melee healer will be DoA in most of the content
daring pine
ye
verbal frost
Ye
With the current design
I think they should consider it one day, though.
I mean if they give it actual disengage like Viper it can be quite good.
craggy marsh
It's a cool idea just like how a ranged tank is but ultimately it wont work out with the game design
versed kayak
designing mechanics around being in melee range of a healer would suck
verbal frost
The boss will just be running around
craggy marsh
Ya
verbal frost
I think melee healer can actually work
versed kayak
unless you mean only melee for their 1 button damage rotation
and ranged heals otherwise
verbal frost
Nah like a primary melee healer
rain geode
unless you mean only melee for their 1 button damage rotation
I assumed they meant that but even then I dont think it would be that great
versed kayak
Nah like a primary melee healer
so melee heals or no
verbal frost
If 3 ranged dps is more viable
That final melee spot can be filled by a melee healer honestly
Like for Strats
daring pine
more melee than rdm and you might as well just be a melee dps lol
verbal frost
Unless fake melee ranged
Ye idk
It’s something ppl think isn’t possible until it’s added I feel
But I don’t they will attempt it for a while if at all.
rain geode
I dont want to have a situation where the party wants to go 3 ranged so I have to melee healer and I get the option I want stripped away from me
verbal frost
Honestly just not a fan of having 2 melee in every party
daring pine
they could just do it like rdm where it's still mostly casting but has a short melee burst
daring pine
but then they would have to make healer's dps rotation interesting
rain geode
Honestly just not a fan of having 2 melee in every party
I mean if the alternative is just having 3 ranged in every party thats just as boring
daring pine
:)
verbal frost
but then they would have to make healer's dps rotation interesting
They can’t even give sage and white mage more than 1 ogcd
While Astro has like 6 damage ones
So I doubt it lol.
rain geode
I dont like changing things just for the sake of changing it
daring pine
that's just astro being astro tbf
verbal frost
That’s the whole vibe with Dawntrail though.
Community just wants square enix to innovate and do new shit.
That isn’t NFT or AI.
versed kayak
If healing requires melee range the job is DoA
If it's just dpsing that requires melee range your experience would be ass since you're gonna be the first one that won't get uptime if mechanics require it
verbal frost
Maybe it would be DoA, but idk they could make it work.
I feel like people would want to play it for the sake of playing it also.
visual geyser
Paladin being able to burst from a ranged is one of the biggest strengths job so people wanting a full ranged tank is funny 
verbal frost
Even statics.
I think we can use a caster tank tbh.
But a full on ranged tank idk.
sick dirge
verbal frost
Warlock or something as a tank could be cool ig.
robust shoal
Man, this gets me thinking about if DNC was in SB
craggy marsh
Tfw you're a melee healer main but the melee spot is taken so you have to actually learn healer mechanics and not melee mechanics
verbal frost
8.0 the one I want the most is probably like
craggy marsh
robust shoal
People would probably run triple pranged
verbal frost
Gunlance honestly.
rain geode
Squares design philosphy seems to be "design a mmo with as few friction points as possible" and having a bunch of complicated gimmick jobs seems like it would hurt that quite a bit
versed kayak
Maybe it would be DoA, but idk they could make it work.
sure, they can make it work by nerfing encounters to never deal too much damage while spread out
or dump all the healing on one healer
robust shoal
DRG+BRD+MCH+DNC
craggy marsh
Squares design philosphy seems to be "design a mmo with as few friction points a...
I am fully expecting rdm to lose rng dualcast in 8.0
It'll be a sad day
rain geode
I have played 0 RDM I hate DPS casters
torn kindle
DRG+BRD+MCH+DNC
The insane rDPS coming from that DRG
visual geyser
I am fully expecting rdm to lose rng dualcast in 8.0
Nah
torn kindle
And all they’re doing is existing
verbal frost
Idk what they can do with red mage atp
It’s already the best feeling job in the game probably.
torn kindle
Make reprise not trash
verbal frost
Red mage having OGCDs on cooldown as a caster is already super unique.
craggy marsh
Still funny that we've gotten 2 finishers for a finisher
verbal frost
It’s very spoiled.
rapid whale
Melee combo ogcd
craggy marsh
And for whatever reason contra sex and fleche dont get buffed by embolden
verbal frost
Oh please no.
craggy marsh
Explain that one
wicked delta
Contra what now