Stagger and Stun are too Punishing

[gray mica]

Now up front I will admit, I am not great at parrying and perfect dodging, and I'm actively trying to improve that.
I also understand that this game is slower paced, and you can't spam-attack your way through combat.

My attempts at getting good here, I don't think should mean I'm constantly lying on the ground. My greatest frustration will Soulframe continues to be just how often I'm unable to control my character because of stagger and knock down.
At higher levels, everything staggers and annoyingly, even basic attacks stagger you out of your attack animations and casts.

I don't feel like the hero of the story when even the enemies grunts are able to easily and consistently put me on my arse. Just let me take the little bit of damage from those basic attacks without the stagger.

The lack of recovery from stagger and knockdown also bothers me. Control is taken away from the player, with no recourse but to wait until the character finishes the stagger animation or gets up from the stun. Coupled with the duration of these animations, this causes combat pacing to feel very awkward and not at all fun.
Some enemies have a near-instant stun I cannot avoid, or a series of attacks where, if you miss the first dodge, you are stun-locked, forced to suffer the entire combo.

And then there are instances I don't understand. Vadagar Stag comes to mind. He fell, so I rushed up to use the opportunity, only for him to fall slightly more and knock me down? Huh? When this happened again, I waited for the second part of his fall to notice this is a shockwave move. That's really confusing. I do not like that a boss attack is telegraphed to look like he is stunned.

I'm trying to branch out into other pacts, but honestly I live in Ode Tempest because I'm not having fun being the Oden ping-pong ball.

[halcyon cove]

I agree that the player should always have a way to recover, stun locks aren't fun, however they recently changed stability quite drastically so I'm surprised to see you're often on the floor.

[atomic turret]

instances like Vadagar Stag aside, i find stagger/stun to be fairly lenient with high virtues and stronger armor; are you still early in the game? this might be an issue that presents itself more for early game players

actually seeing the name color, i'm sure a moderator isn't new to the game aha
can you tell me more about your loadout? i wanna play around myself and see if using what you use gives me a different impression

[halcyon cove]

you made a good point though, we really need a way for old timers to experience the game like a newcomer. I have no idea how stability feels when you start now. Maybe not a complete reset, but something we could toggle.

[lethal dirge]

+1

As a predominantly solo player, I always found this a very consistent issue I run into when 95% of the fights I do are the open world packs of 4+ mobs that have the potential of stunlocking you to death. There is the "git gud" argument, but that usually goes out the window with any attempt to play a melee pact that isn't super tanky like Bromius.

I also agree that as testers for a product still in development, we need something along the lines of an option for a personal account reset not just to promote quality testing for those who wish to retest earlier content that has had alterations, but also because we're seeing topics that seem to fall into "newer testers v. earlier testers" without any way for those earlier testers to adequately go back to try and understand what the newer testers are talking about.

[gray mica]

Not new, no. But I'm not able to play super often and I haven't done any build-maxing. So perhaps my build isn't great, just slapped on the armour I thought looked cool and picked a weapon that virtues gave me the bonus with.
But I'm not playing in Cogah; should a non-minmaxed build be suffering in base game? I don't think so. Sure, without some effort, I shouldn't be wiping the floor in higher level areas, but stagger feels bad every where.

Maybe this is insight into what it feels like for new players??

The new vs older player experience is certainly something to look into for team, so much has changed that my first experience in Soulframe would probably sound like a different game to someone picking it up now.

On the other hand, this is also a feeling I'm sure resonates with more casual players.

[placid pond]

Stagger only in mob situations, sure. Getting mobbed down can be annoying for people who aren't parry addicts. Don't mind tweaking it in terms of improving QoL somehow.

In terms of 1v1 bosses, absolutely not, game is not challenging enough. Cannot support anything making this aspect of the game easier until a full rebalance to make things more skill based and challenging is implemented.

[viscid coral]

Getting dogpiled by enemies is the key issue. And that enemies hitting other enemies with AoEs has no consequence.

If they could adjust the AI to avoid hitting the enemies and (!!!) themselves with AoEs like grenades and such, and space better during combat as to not stagger their own, it would change a lot.

I’d limit it to staggering only, no actual damage.

I very much like that the number of unblockable attacks has become significantly smaller, but any fight that has more than 3 enemies turns into a mess. The enemies need to be punished for hitting their own with AoEs.

And about the boss fights: they are repeatable boss fights. Usually in such games you are supposed to learn the basic attack patterns of enemies and avoid them.

I am terrible at parrying and dodging. But I have learnt when it’s best to scoot back and hold block for a second (like when the bear buttslams you).

[desert turtle]

The latest update did drastically reduce the amount of knockdowns, unblockable attacks, and improved stagger resist by a lot. They reduced it by too much by my opinion. There is a stat on your armor - Stability - which increases your resistance to such attacks. What is your Stability rating?

They also really improved the ability to block hits, so that just blocking is very effective now vs before which was kinda of bad and really required you to parry. You might want to look into using Grace more and a faster blade that does not lock you into animations that you can always hit the dodge button. Just tap it so you dodge and do not roll. Rolling is good for creating space, but not for dodging most attacks. If you dodge in the right window, you get iframes. I often dodge towards the enemy even if I am really close cause then I am able to not take the hit and then keep on the attack.

[gray mica]

After much adjusting and playing, I can say I have a better time using a Courage focused build. Grace and Spirit I'm still experiencing a lot of stagger.
(Apologies for not replying with my build, I prefer to figure it out on my own rather than be instructed.)

Another thread was opened talking about a lack of clarity in melee combat.
https://discord.com/channels/998758139405029478/1473215126051094539
This I feel is also a big part of my issue. I'm struggling to dodge and parry because, a lot of time, it is unclear to me when to do so. And I suppose stagger would not feel so intense if I could reliably avoid hits.

[agile kettle]

I hear this so much. My recommendation to DE: just remove stagger completely from your game. It has no redeeming qualities. It doesn't make the game more challenging; it makes the game more annoying.

[placid pond]

X, combat needs more elden ring/bloodborne/sekiro/lies of P,

I want to send enemies flying with them big maces. And if they land a hit with big weapons I should stagger.

[short pendant]

kicks need to do more stagger for sure thats all i know

[safe agate]

Honestly I am having the complete opposite reaction. I don’t remember the last time I was fully staggered and tbh the combat feels good now. I don’t think it needs changing

[echo heart]

Staggering is worst then the dark souls 2 parries. Worst then freaking monster hunter world stuns for a million years IM CRASHING OUT.

Although I've been playing a lot of Soulframe and I think its just cus I play a lot I don't get staggered much anymore. But if you get staggered it's still pretty much guaranteed death especially during the Siege of Mirifuir