#Envoys!

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

outer furnace
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Questions here!

maiden night
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What time will the Soulshort be?

near sable
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why was the decision made to limit the upgrade options for Virtues in favor of having archetypes? Archetypes already existed in the old system but had no real functionality couldn’t you have just improved the old system without restricting the game’s possibilities?

gloomy bramble
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Will spirit envoys be able to not be one-shotted by bosses in Cogah due to low armor values?

twin wraith
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Will prisms do anything other than adjust the three-directional 'slider' for virtue alignment? Feels like that could have just been a slider in the arsenal, if the prisms have no further depth to them - also once a few positions on that scale are available, there will be no further room for new prisms to be added to the game AvaThonk

left vale
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when we get an option to disable autolock entirely? nothing against it, just how I'm used to playing souls like combat

radiant zodiac
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How will the virtue changes affect our Envoy’s maximum HP?

onyx hollow
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How will virtues affect each ability exactly, is it damage/duration/range, or other parameters?

pine stump
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It feels an awful lot like the as-described virtue rework is going to reduce the complexity of builds moving forward, over solving the two issues of people not investing points or investing entirely into courage. What will be done to prevent pacts from becoming single button playstyles, and why was this the solution over improving how spirit and grace scaled abilities?

gloomy bramble
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How can we acquire prisms? And while steve did say 'not too grindy' how grindy is 'not too grindy'?

maiden night
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Will weapons lose their old attunements and get matched to the new attunement system? (for example, will Bog and Myrtle become courage-attuned, and will Blitzel become grace-attuned?)

tiny frigate
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with spirit builds now meant to be spellcasting glass canons, do you plan to adjust the massive cooldown increase in cogah mode to keep it somehow viable?

twin wraith
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Will daggers scale with courage, or with grace?

The devstream recap post says that all melee will scale with courage, but it feels like daggers (and maybe even dual swords) align to the grace playstyle that Steve was describing

near stag
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Will ability tooltips/in-game text explain how virtues scale/affect specific pact abilities?

chilly hull
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Im hoping they get crafted/obtained with pacts that work well with the virtue spread

maiden night
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Can you give us more information on weapon scaling? The announcement said "ranged weapons scale with grace"... but magick weapons are ranged too? and what about shortblades?

idle loom
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Since Prisms now determine the spread of Virtues, how have the Virtue nodes in the Pact upgrade tree changed, if at all?

And, do Pacts still come with a weighting towards specific Virtues and if so how does that affect the Prism spread?

jade cypress
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Why did you choose to go for finisher damage for grace, instead of something like attack speed or armor penetration

brazen prism
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Will a given virtue scale every stat of the corresponding ability (strength, duration, range), and if so has the scaling been adjusted to be more impactful than they currently are in the live game (range and duration scale poorly for most pacts)

signal tendon
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grace gets ranged weapons but finisher damage. is there anything else grace will get that suits its weapon types better? as of right now its almost an anti synergy. if im at range, im not close enough for finishers

maiden night
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One of the best parts of Soulframe right now is the versatility and creativity possible with mixing weapons and pacts. Will that still be possible in the new system or will we be stuck with cliche fantasy tropes?

near sable
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Since Virtues are restricting builds to the point where “all melees” are Courage, is there a possibility to have 2 weapon slots to put whatever we want instead of being limited to just a few secondary weapons? For example, we have daggers and dual blades with the same moveset, and now with the same Virtue if all melees become Courage, wouldn’t having 2 free slots be better? Cool combinations like bow+staff or sword+bow.

chilly hull
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from what I was getting with the weapon scaling is there a lot of hybrid prisms, so Im sure we can still mix and match weapons, because you gotta go hybrid if you want more than one of your abilities to scale well

jade cypress
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Do you have a long term vision for virtue prisms that would be helpful for us to know as a community.

tender lodge
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How are the Blessed Joineries working specifically with bonus nodes/atunnements? We've seen Clivers and Besker's attunements, but it seems unclear if they are dual-scaling weapons with more nodes than their tier would normally have, and if the Saphene joinery is providing additional Grace Attunement nodes?

Are we moving away from the Tier#=AmountOfAttunementNodes system?

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Considering how hard bosses can hit in Cogah, we usually use the best/heaviest armour available to not die in one hit.

Are Grace/Spirit players -- since they won't have the heaviest armour available -- now expected to play in the backlines in order to not get hurt in Cogah since one hit may potentially take them down instantly if they play melee?

Are there armours available to said playstyles that can tank physical/magickal hits for melee combat?

weak eagle
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Just make it a slider and let points allocate automatically but I’m open to try Prisms in p13

shy basin
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What if we had 7 starting prisms?

  1. Full Spirit
  2. Full Courage
  3. Full Grace
  4. Mid Spirit-Courage
  5. Mid Spirit-Grace
  6. Mid Courage-Grace
  7. Center

Anything beyond that we could grind for it, like cursed prisms for example (negative virtue X to boost virtue Y)

vivid harbor
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How will the introduction of the new virtue system in the upcoming Preludes 13 impact armour and weapons statistics and scaling?

wild crag
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Any plans on adding more Face types and even blending 2 face as we have in warframe...And also any plans on adding more modern short mail hairstyles like what for example Dragons Dogma 2 have?

heady folio
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Coming from warframe and playing soulframe through so many preludes up to now, I don't prefer this. I liked how strength and duration and range were customizable features of abilities and I felt that was the right way to go about it. Every ability worked as planned with my build customized to the pact and not just to singular abilities.
My question now is, if that is changing to a system where Green abilities are only buffed by spirit, red by courage, blue by grace, how are you going to prevent every pact from only being great with one of their abilities and the other two being very meh?
What if I want to properly utilize the entire set of abilities equally?

shadow goblet
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Can you please verify the changes in the Blessed Joineries as well? What bonuses are we looking at? Just a plus 1?

tender lodge
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There are some pacts that have been "unattached" to the current Virtue system, ie. Mora's Hand, where the abilities/upgrades don't scale with any virtues or scale so slightly it's almost negligible. Did you take a pass with all the pacts so all abilities + pacts scale noticeably with the new Virtue System?

runic tundra
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will this come to an upgrade of the presets ? will at the minimum prisms be save int it ?

inland needle
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With the prisms introduced and intent of soul stat being for casters/mages are we going to have more pacts focusing on damage abilities instead of buffs/cc?

olive hemlock
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Any other plans for more sieges and more operations other than the ones we already have?

#

Or will eventually have after p13 launches

rich summit
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Do you plan on changing how weapons currently work? For example every Long Blade pretty much feels the same they no identity. With the new virtue changes it would be great to have a weapon rework so we could further build into the fantasy of certain prisms.

Example: Moras blade could have a flame based perk tree that we could customize with a DOT that can then be further invested in as it levels up, maybe some kind of heating up mechanic. This would be along side the perk tree that is class based. We could also have inherited perks which could be used across schools of weapons to further enhance build choice. Marrows Bane could be an awesome bleed weapon, Sword and Board could have real identity and so on.

I am sure you have something cooking for weapons as right now it really is bland, not trying to sound rude or anything, but weapons could be a huge draw in this game, HUGE.

frozen summit
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regarding the abilities scaling with each virtue, is/will there be anything in place to keep the abilities other than the one that scales with your main stat viable (tethren's 2 and 3, oscelda's 1 and 3, etc.)? the way it sounded in the devstream it seems likely that there would be builds where only the ability that goes with your main virtue is good

dusty adder
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Will virtue prisms require inventory slots like weapons and pacts, or are you allowed to have as many as you can get with no space limitations?

Also, if melee weapons now scale with Courage, Ranged weapons with Grace and Magic weapons with Spirit, period, is it not a concern that there are overwhelmingly more melee weapons than the other two categories combined? You'd have to spend most of your time on a courage build just to grind out your envoy level.

Also, won't Grace and Spirit get a bit samey, given that they have a much smaller selection of weapon classes to work with, compared to there being what, five different melee categories?

near stag
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Are there future plans to expand the Prism system by allowing them to be altered or upgraded? Adding more stats or providing them more meaning than slight stat weight differences?

junior fable
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The virtue system hurts/limit the game more than it benefits it. Would you consider scrapping it completely and let skill trees for each weapon/pact determine the bonuses and playstyles in Soulframe instead?

(This would let you design way more unique playstyles and give the playerbase more freedom/creativity)

floral vector
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1: Will Orengall ever get her own themed weapon? The sword was teased back around the time the pact was put in. But we've not heard anything about it since.
2: Will we see the ghost wolves get re-bugfixed so that they won't block attacks? P11 broke that fix.
3: I'm hopeing there is a "middle of the road" prism, for those who really want a balanced 1/3-1/3-1/3 attribute point distribution.

dire flume
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Hi DE!

Are there plans to add a hold to melee accessibility option?

Will there be an option to see Garren and Bromius somewhere once their quests are complete? I would like to pay respects to my liege lords

snow prawn
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Hi DE,

Will attunement softcaps be removed/redone due to the new virtue system seemingly not really working around the idea of softcaps because of prisms forcing points in certain ratios? It seems like the extreme prisms that allocate your points mostly in one area would become suboptimal due to them disrespecting softcaps. If softcaps remain are there any plans to add indicators for softcap numbers, so the player knows whether or not their points are going to good use?

Also a little side question.
One of the main pain points with the current Virtue system that you really stressed was that Virtue points go unused due to players not allocating them manually. Wouldnt a much simpler solution to that issue be to more actively let the player know when they have unspent virtue points (with something like a notification on Virtue level up that shows up from time to time if you dont use your points), as apposed to the current virtue prisms being automatic and seemingly somewhat infringing on player freedom?

Love the game and never stop doing what you are doing. You guys are an inspiration ❤️

uncut harness
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Hi DE,

With the new virtue prism stytem, we will not be able to min/max virtue points anymore, are you going to remove virtue caps from weapons/pacts or are we going to lose virtue effectiveness with virtue points awarded that will be useless?

Isn't it going to kill the build diversity? For example sometimes I like to use a staff spirit based and Fellust(Tethren), for that I go on spirit until I reach staff cap and then spend the remaining points in courage. With the new system I will have to choose a prism with Spirit and Courage but either over the staff cap or under it.

sweet wedge
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Hi DE,

You mentioned that melee weapons will be considered courage. Will that turn the spirit based weapons, such Royal Tines, to change its damage type? Same goes for and Grace based melee weapons

weary nexus
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When will we be implementing customizable guilds?

junior fable
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Why not remove weapon DMG scaling from virtues (Make them all have a base attack value that automatically increases with rank) and then let players spend their earned virtue points manually.
Each virtue provide bonuses for different aspect - With increasing diminishing returns at different intervals / points spent in a specific virtue type.
(10 > 20 > 25 > 30+)

Virtue bonuses:

Courage:
Health
Physical defense

Spirit:
Cooldown reduction
Magical defense

Grace:
Headshot DMG
Backstab DMG
Stability

Armor:

Give each armor piece a minimum required "Courage" points value.
More courage = Stronger armor can be used.
(This keeps the fantasy of mages/archers not being able to wear the strongest armor, unless they sacrifice some of their power that comes from their "preferred" virtue types - Spirit/Grace)

Prisms:
(You could also use the "prism" idea with this system. The important aspect is to remove weapon DMG scaling from the virtue system to allow players to pursue the specific bonuses they want for their build)

Bonus addition:
Let ALL weapons in the game be used as a "secondary" weapon (Instead of the current sidearm system)

** This would provide much more build diversity and creativity for the players! **

honest badge
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Grace has been 3rd place since always, how will stealth and finisher damage boost improve grace if these are situational bonuses that dont even apply to all enemies?

It seems like grace is still worst than spirit and courage.

ember copper
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It was stated that Spirit Virtue was supposed to make you the dedicated wizard spamming your abilities, however it was also said that pact abilities now scale based of off their assigned virtue. So how exactly does that work?

My fear is that, for example:
If courage abilities still scale based of off courage then I would want my courage high as well for increased damage. But this would then leave my grace ability completely useless.

humble wadi
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are the weapons going to really scale only with one Virtue, based on weapon "role"?

why not scale different aspects of the weapon, like critical chance, finisher damage and stuff like this? or scale with all stats but stronger with one or two of them? anything but 1 Virtue scaling, really...

what makes Soulframe cool is that we are able to mix and match stuff. if you are funneling everything to fit the trifecta (was that the right word, Steve? 🤣) and nothing else, I think the game will suffer a lot from it, in my opinion. it's ok to not have optimal scaling for damage for a certain type of weapon, but having 0 scaling is worrisome

that said, I love the new Prism system in place of manual stat allocation. I think this is the right direction, I just think the way weapons (and armor, probably) scale as it was said won't go well

thank you for all the love you've been putting into Soulframe ❤️

barren mason
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Are melee weapons going to keep their different affinity scalings and just get an additive with courage, or will you be required to run a courage based prism in order to properly utilize melee weapons?

Also, will prisms be restricted where players will be unable to do builds outside of their starting pact's expected distribution until new prisms are aquired, or will we begin with multiple prisms to allow us to do different builds from the start? (Not counting those gained from founder packs)

stark monolith
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with the new virtue system and blessed joineries, since it sounded like blessed joineries now just add 1 symbol of their virtue onto the weapon instead of completely changing the attunement, will you add "missing" weapon/virtue combinations as a priority over repeating ones? for example, the staff and gauntlet you showed, if the staff is grace and the gauntlet courage, we would have a magick weapon for each virtue. if both are spirit again, then builds will be severely limited, but what if i want to play a tanky magick wielder? i can be a tanky magick wielder right now and i hope i can still be one with the virtue. we then would need to fill in missingcombinations like spirit flyblade, spirit shield, spirit greatsword etc.

hallow moth
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But I do hold that same sentiment. If a melee weapon was previously based on either spirit or grace, are there examples that would get a change to a courage affinity with the change to the virtue system?

sweet wedge
smoky pier
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Thank You DE Sarah & Team 😀 Looking forward to the update

Question/s:

  • How will the new Virtues System synergize Pact abilities range, duration and damage

  • Armour attuning with virtues for Envoys and scaling against damage

  • Stability scaling knockdown

  • Will Weapon Attuning increase damage scaling against enemies effect health/armour

  • You guys are legends 🙌 😁 see you In Midrath 🕊️

glass pawn
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DONT DO THIS TO ME!!!!

half bronze
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read

cinder pumice
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What are the long term plans for the game? New islands/continents?

twin wraith
humble wadi
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two short questions:

  • will the attunement cap be removed?
  • can the prisms be named the same as the title displayed on the Virtues screen? (ie. Rogue to Saphene) they sound pretty cool and already attempt to describe a certain Virtue spread
zinc star
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The Virtue Prism system feels too streamlined with less fine-grained choice for engaging with experimentation, and seems to add yet another collectable item to grind or farm just to be able to choose where the already earned stat points go which feels really raw. Prisms need to add more value, like unique bonuses and passives, otherwise should be scrapped.

half bronze
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^^ THIS THIS!!!!!!

thick lichen
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Did you experiment with Virtue Prisms being a free moving orb (something you grab with the mouse or gamepad), or does testing just make collected archetypes more readable?

#

AFAIK all pacts have an upgrade like 'Akin' which improves ability cool down - is this still the case with the new virtue system, where we have an archetype specifically designed for better and faster casting?

smoky pier
jaunty shuttle
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With the the possible specialization into each playstyle being placed upon us with the new Prism and Virtue system coming will there be improvements to multiplayer integration so if my buddies aren't online I can role fill into somebody else game?

torpid fiber
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Not really a Virtue rework question, but why does Garen add bonus to Spirit, when it was Grace, that saw him freed ?

alpine plover
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Will the Infamy rank have an update to be more of a feature?

cobalt hearth
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Will there be more changes to armor like set bonuses, or a rebalance in the future?

modest prairie
hollow shell
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What do you want combat to feel like/ what is the type of combat direction you want to take the game reactive or proactive

faint folio
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What will happen to the virtue points given by pacts, pact skill trees, and the permanent buffs from some of the quest dialogs?

I'm wondering what the goal is for making prisms items you have to obtain vs just having them be nodes with preset distributions on the Virtue UI element we could click to swap between?

Also seconding questions about reworked virtue scaling on weapons. As it is, it makes many weapons vs higher level content just feel like heavy attack spam or smite fishing is the only play. (Could we possibly increase the number of smites to activate the runes so they can remain strong without trivializing gameplay with smite builds? As is runes feel too strong, so strong you don't have to engage with the game mechanics. Some more than others)

smoky yarrow
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We already have to grind our points and you are now adding another grind layer on top of that just to allocate the points. This seems too much. All Prisms should be freely available (maybe locked behind pact level or total number of points); and there should be a ton of them to make sure the min/max possibilities of the manual allocation are preserved.

scenic root
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Will Blessed Joineries allow us to make using weapons outside their slice of the virtue pie (i.e. Magic weapons on a Courage build) viable? Or are we throwing the previous build freedom out with the new system?

ashen vault
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Not sure if it's been asked already, but will there be a possibility for like a blank or "adept" prism that will still allow manual point allocation for those of us who like having the finer control over our setups?

floral vector
spice cairn
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How will Pact choice be kept relevant in courage or grace builds?
With spirit being the single virtue that affects ability cooldown, it seems like maximizing your courage build or grace build will make ability usage relatively rare, so does Pact choice even matter to a non-caster style build? This issue seems to be even more prominent given that each ability will only scale with a single virtue, meaning even a dedicated spirit build will only get 1 of their 3 abilities as an effective option.

With armors now being restricted to courage builds, will the grace and spirit armor options get any alternate attributes to offset the loss of damage reduction? A tradeoff between each option would feel a lot better than just "this virtue gets damage reduction and the other two don't."

Separately, on the topic of prisms, while I see the value in streamlining the system, the idea of having to grind for an item in order to assign the points that I already grinded for definitely doesn't feel great. My pitch for a potential improvement would be to let us drag and drop our ratio point ourselves as a sort of "custom prism" by default. This keeps the streamlined ratio-driven approach, while still respecting player choice. The premade prisms as shown on stream could still be kept as an option to grind for and equip, but with added passive effects attached to them. This makes them feel more like an upgrade for a specific playstyle, rather than a required grind. This added bonus also gives an incentive to still use the premade prisms despite custom-tuning being an option.

uncut harness
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Hi DE,
Another question, in your devstream overview, you are writing melee weapons are courage, magic weapon spirit, ranged weapon grace.

Weapons already lack identity in a same category, if now a same category are set a same attunment, aren't they just skins and not different weapons.

Also what about throwing weapong like shield and polearm where you throw them to knockdown ennemies and do finisher after, are they going to be grace weapons or are they going to be courage because you can also melee with them?

safe magnet
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You said using a blessed joinery now increases a weapons virtue attunement instead of changing it. Are we going to be able to bless a weapon a 2nd or 3rd time to keep increasing the virtue attunement?

lyric fog
#

when is katana? PrayVakot

sinful pier
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Will you address concerns about the Virtue Prisms removing player agency while adding grind in its place?

uncut parrot
#

As a Solo Battle Mage, my concerns moving into new adjustments are "Glass Cannon in Cogah" here are my questions:

Totem Scaling: Will weapon-slotted Defense Totems like the Duck's Armor scale with our primary Virtue? We need these to stay relevant for non-tank builds so they don't become redundant noise in the late game.

Could the Soul Steal Smites be buffed to provide active mitigation? Specifically, could collecting Red Souls grant a temporary Armor or Stability buffer to reward aggressive frontline play for Mages? And making Smites more rewarding moving forward?

Are there plans for tiered Courage Elixirs (S/M/L) that provide temporary more defense buffs?

ashen karma
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Will we get a badge on our profile for participating during preludes? Also are there plans for a more RPG based story quests or like a linear campaign? I feel like that could solve a big concern for unlocking the new virtues in the system by completing the story quests/campaign? Also will there be better new player exp/guide?

slim herald
#

Are the prisms stackable? Because I really like my current 30, 20, 17 thing I have got going for my Sirin build

covert lantern
#

Are you actually going to gut weapon variety like you have outlined in the overview? Why can't I be a magic fencer or dagger rogue or longbow warrior?

wild crag
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Any plans on adding more Face types and even blending 2 face as 1 like what we have in warframe...And also any plans on adding more modern short mail hairstyles like what for example Dragons Dogma 2 have? Also to add that this game gives me Fable vibe and im really hoping to see more cool locations in that similar direction

timber totem
#

It would be nice to have a customizable prism; will something like that be added?

glossy igloo
timber totem
signal tendon
#

The devstream had you hover over many weapons, both old and new that show mixed scaling. Can you explain how this works?

My current theory is it gets its new main virtue (melee = courage etc) as well as 1 "flavour" pip that is its current virtue in the p12 system? So taking gathannan for example, it would become 2 courage, 1 spirit. Is this accurate? If no, then what is the system for it?

jovial wing
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Given that Virtues, Pacts, and weapons/armor used to form a pivotal 3-point system where you could create many variations depending on the specific build you were aiming for, how will we achieve similar flexibility now that each of those aspects is locked into predefined archetypes?
Will it be possible to invest time into farming or crafting more free-form or extreme Prisms, multi-scaling weapons, or any kind of mechanic that offers greater freedom?

flint bridge
#

@outer furnace Currently, rank gives +1 Virtue. Will rank have any effect in the future? Is there any point in racing to upgrade as many items as possible?

tough stone
#

Will the affects of the different Virtues (at the player's current scaling) on individual pact abilities as well as in general be communicated in game?

That was one of my biggest gripes with the old system, you only knew what the Virtues actually did if you read through a wiki, and even then you basically just guessed at their level of impact.

#

Is Spirit going to scale how often we are able to throw out Pact Abilities? If so, how does that avoid the system simply shifting from courage being the single most important stat to spirit filling that role?

If courage is going to scale the damage of all melee weapons now, and weapon virtue attunement is just extra damage instead of a requirement, what will be the point of spirit or grace attuned melee weapons? A Courage attuned melee weapon will simply always be better, with Spirit and Grace builds being much better off using magic weapons and bows in all cases.

Doesn't this destroy build variety?

pallid saffron
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Hi DE,

I am currently running a Tethren-Courage build paired with a Courage-Attuned Odiac because that's the build I am having the most fun with in terms of damage and playstyle. Will that still be the case after the rework?

lilac chasm
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Old Virtue had system that was changing your title below the stat spread when you had certain virtues point mixed up or reached certain threeshold with them.

New virtue rework will still keep that mechanic of titles below stat chart or its getting completly removed from the game?

I liked to have Spirit and Courage mix named "O'Knight Paladine". Small detail but fun

uncut kayak
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Ok, so Virtues now color-coded (each Virtue responsible for each ability you have in Pact). How is this changes affects abilities' default Strength, Duration & Range? Are they "baked" now for each ability individually?

Would be great if we could see abilities' stats. Not just "Big Virtue number - Maximum Ability Power".

autumn shard
#

Will anything be done to give the multiple weapons of the same rarity and category relevance now that their virtues will be homogenized?

peak oriole
#

What will happen to virtue-increasing upgrades in the pact skill trees?

cunning glen
#

Have you considered doing away with virtue points all together and instead focus more on totems for build diversity?

junior fable
#

Big fat "No thank you" to dailies.
(Dont want to feel i have to complete tasks every single day)

I would be alright with weeklies.

mystic wind
#

That's not how skinner boxes and human psychology works

iron lava
#

Would like more personality added to individual weapons so they'd feel unique. Mage weapons are currently the worst offender of it as they all do pretty much the same thing right now with just slightly different stats. A weapon rework would be nice.

heavy ledge
#

So... Mounts?

glossy igloo
uneven slate
#

Necromancer pact👀

iron lava
uneven slate
amber steppe
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  • how will the attunement cap for weapons work now ? is the system being removed or how will the new prism system interact with the really high attunement cap weapons ?

  • how will the grace and spirit scaling armors perform in cogah, are ranged/magick weapon users being forced into full on glass cannon builds ?

  • will the new blessed joineries make weapons equal scaling with the added virtue or will the weapon still be scaling better with the original virtue ?

  • if we go for a courage/spirit hybrid build with the weapons and prism, how will the spirit armors hold up against courage ones ? what will be the advantage of running lower defense ?

modern dirge
#

When will the founder version of the virtues be farmable by non founders?

barren mason
#

Considering there's the intent to limit Grace builds to ranged weapons, and the other bonus of Grace is finishers, will we gain the ability to use finishers at range, or will we be required to stay in melee primarily using ranged weapons?

Also, are there plans to add more diversity in magic and ranged weapons? Currently this suggested rework only allows Courage to have meaningful customization and diversity, and instead makes Grace and Spirit cookie cutter builds with no meaningful weapon choice

raw ruin
barren mason
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I guess I'm mainly concerned about the fact that for melee weapons, there's basically 7 different move sets and playstyles between all of the melee weapons, but for ranged it's 1 (unless flyblades scale with Grace too), which has an obvious best in slot bow so no reason to use any other; and for magic there's the gauntlets and staves, which play the same and same as bow has an obvious best in slot so no reason to use any other. Basically means that Grace and Spirit will not be given build freedom, we would have to use specific weapons and specific pacts, meanwhile Courage will have more pact freedom and so many more options for how to build

iron lava
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if you mean pacts then they literally are 1:1 with starter pacts, the only real difference is gear, which is pretty mediocre when compared to the best armour sets and weapons

onyx hollow
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it will be, but no date

rich summit
amber steppe
# iron lava if you mean pacts then they literally are 1:1 with starter pacts, the only real ...

pacts share points with the base versions, meaning if you level up both the starter and founder version you get 60 points to use instead of 30. thats a big difference.

and they said multiple times they don't want any equipment items to be not acquirable anymore.

founder weapons, pacts, talismans all will be farmable in game later and paragon founders will be able to gift paragon sword fragments to people for them to craft their own

only true exclusive thing in the founder packs will be the profile icons and the guide skins

iron lava
twin patio
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Will we have bigger weapons like the greatsword? I'd love a two handed double sided battle axe, like stark from frieren lol

sinful osprey
#

As prisms seem to currently only alter the virtue ratio, they will inevitably and likely quickly become redundant to collect more prisms. Could you perhaps give prisms unique effects/abilities alongside their virtue ratio modifier? e.g a hunter prism which specializes in grace, additionally gives bonuses to orengal/animal summon abilities/ maybe increased damage to animal enemies etc. Contrast this with say an assassin prism which also specializes in grace, but perhaps additionally buffs small blade weapons, or applies extra damage to quick, or dodge attacks. I feel that prisms need to be more than just a ratio modifier as that is quite boring and lacks flavor. Give each prism a unique special quality and it would suddenly become far more compelling to collect them.

uncut kayak
twin patio
covert beacon
#

Will we ever regain the ability to free-form set our own stats, or is that lost to us forever in favor of this crummy prism system?
Also, plese explain in clear terms how grace affects combat outside of finishers and sneak attacks. That's a very narrow and niche set of conditions to meet, so it has to do more than that.

barren mason
twin patio
#

Like imagine being a sneaky grace character farming backstabs and crits with a greatsword

#

Or a front line courage warrior with a bow, weaving in and out of combat shooting

wild crag
#

It would be nice if we can get option to save the powers of some specific Pact but to take different look from other Pact so that for example use Pact hand design but powers of other pact...i think that would be super cool 🙂 becouse Some arms looks cool but powers not so much

karmic crescent
#

Are there currently any plans to allow for the modification of the virtue prisms in the future? There's a finite number of prisms to be made that are meaningfully different, so thinking long term it would be nice to upgrade them somehow going forward.

junior fable
#

Won't the main benefit from picking "Spirit" be kind of eliminated in Cogah mode? How do you address this potential issue?

real root
#

When will we get working guilds? Will be great to be able to have a giant area where people can build their own guild base and hang out.

#

Will we get mounts soon or a way to fast travel other than asking for a "taxi"?
even a purchasable item that cost plat but lets you place a teleporter in a place of your choosing would be great

native moat
#

i mean, you can already fast travel from world tree to world tree, they are more or less evenly spaced out i think

glossy igloo
karmic crescent
twin wraith
covert urchin
#

Do/will Prisms have any additional effects beyond them just affecting Virtue assignments and HP gain, such as passives like "recover more deferred Health from melee attacks"?

In the same vein of Virtues but regarding Weapons, so feel free to dodge if you want, but when a Rare weapon is Blessed, will it gain Attunement beyond 3, or will Attunement be capped at 3? For example, Purity going from CourageCourageCourage to CourageCourageCourageGrace, or just replacing one of its existing Courage Attunements for Grace? edit: noticed that the Clivers in the devstream have 4 attunement, but leaving the question here in case it has changed from development branch to now.

smoky yarrow
twin wraith
half bronze
#

OH SNAP THAT"S the actual Sara! Cool!

rugged lily
#

How will the virtue rework and shift in design approach impact the community's highly demanded moth pact?

toxic basin
#

Garren rood prime?

steep veldt
#

But let's see how impactful it will be once we try it out

floral vector
covert urchin
#

i was actually looking forward to using a grace prism with orengall and dewelion...

sweet wedge
#

Hi DE,

Can you all put the numbers that each Prism will do to each ability when you highlight the ability when looking at the pact instead of us guessing. Have a visual number to see?

half bronze
junior fable
versed shale
#

Will anything be done for orengall so it doesn’t feel terrible to have a stat plot so you can use melee weapons with it after the change

pseudo cypress
#

Why is build freedom being restricted, why can’t it just be better communicated to players what virtues do with the rework?I think the versatility of the current system gives more meaning to increasing mastery. Would having to grind for prisms make mastery less impactful?

grand yarrow
#

When will we get something in game that shows all stats so we can see what is changed when we make changes?

weak eagle
#

Can we get a roadmap of 2026

blazing fog
#

Every time I finish off the boss, a message appears, but this message only appears after holstering my weapon and exiting combat mode! This has been a huge annoyance, as it's possible to pick up the loot before this message appears... and when the message appears, the drop that should appear on the screen disappears...

modest prairie
#

well if we got an new ancestor that teaches/sells recipe for base prisms and you level up when you have gotten all the basic prisms if you have 3 grades maybe new pacts can only use basic prisms lvl 15 medium grade and 30 high grade if we add attunement crystals to the prisms stats to be determined, basic prsm has 1 attunement slot medium grad has 2 and high grade has 3 to tune and attune prisms you use a node or the npc not to important by using a triangle slider and adding attunement crystals what is important is what does this do for us what hole does it plug, what need does it fill

olive hemlock
#

Will Capitalism Camel have an Ancestor Fable or he will just remain as a sudden apparition in the Nightfold

twin wraith
twin wraith
glass pawn
#

can we add a twerking emote to the game for founders only ?(ITS A JOKE CALM YOUR CHILLINGS)

floral vector
floral vector
wild delta
glass pivot
#

The current virtue system feels convoluted because spending points provides little info on what it upgrades and has almost no noticeable change in play feel. The proposed rework seems to repeat the same issues with a new interface, less player control, and more grind, without addressing the core problems. IMO I think a hybrid of the old and new systems would work best.

Keep virtue points scaling with overall level but reduce the total number and make each point more impactful. Virtue points should ONLY affect weapon damage and armor scaling, creating clear, satisfying feedback (bigger damage numbers feel good). Weapons would start with an attunement matching their playstyle but could still be blessed to change it. Weapon abilities and effectiveness would still be determined by runes and totems.

Prisms
Repurpose virtue prisms into something that directly benefit your pact. Prisms would have rarity, attunement, and stat buffs, giving min-maxers depth while still offering strong baseline options for casual players. Heres how id do it:

Specific dungeons drop prisms with a specified attunement and rarity, but have randomized stats that buff your pact (range, duration, efficiency, smite chance, etc.). These prisms could be upgraded, traded, or sold. This would function similarly to Genshin Impact’s artifacts or Warframe’s relics, adding a compelling gameplay loop. Attunement or “resonance” could be changed via rituals at Fey Queen shrines without rerolling stats.

There should also be pact prisms, earned when forging a pact, with predetermined stats that complement that pact’s playstyle (e.g., Thethren favoring ability efficiency for his 1). These prisms would provide a solid foundation to farm for stronger dungeon prisms. Wyld prisms would also exist.

I believe this would clearly communicate the purpose and benefits of each system, eliminate ambiguity, and enhance—rather than restrict—the game’s classless freedom and customization.

haughty zodiac
#

Will there be Wyld versions of pacts like how primes work in warframe?

knotty carbon
#

Looking forward to the update, my biggest questions:

  • Is the "Melee = Courage, Grace = Range, Spirit = Magic" grouping general or specifiic. Will things like a Spirit Archer or Grace Swordmaster be possible?
  • In the devstream we saw weapons with multiple attunment types and pips, can you elaborate on what these do and how they work?
  • Will weapons still have attunement caps now that we can no longer stop putting points into a virtue once we reach it?
twin wraith
haughty zodiac
lapis brook
#

nice!

high acorn
#

i know this is a virtue q and a, but in case you are up for answering any other questions ill throw this out there.. can you clarify if any of the founders items will be exclusive to founders? flowers, cursed manifold, motifs, birds etc.

simple iris
#

Less of a question and more of a fear:

My concern (as many others have voiced) is that we will lose flexibility in the name of build diversity.

(BTW I have faith that the SF team will find a good solution)

I just wanted to site some an example of another game that tried to guide players into specific roles.

SWG used to have the best character design because you could do anything. When "they" forced people into "Iconic" classes it destroyed the game. All you have to do is look at pirate servers still running the original build to see what people prefer.

I really don't want my character to be forced into wearing specific armor and weapons because I play Sirin.

I love my Sirin Mystical Assassin (Spirit Main Melee). I even set my points so that I could have the title Verus Assassin.

sweet wedge
dawn star
#

For those who bought a weapon with arcs so they could have 2 versions ie courage odiac and spirit odiac will they get arcs or mats refunded since this game is locking play styles more. Like many have stated it feels this restriction will be a step back(i normally try to get Versus Assassin) however I sometimes fine tune for weapons

lost umbra
#

wouldn't it be better to simply removes attributed stats allocated to virtue points? like removing the damage buff from courage, duration buff from spirit and range buff from grace? because from what you've shown us points allocation even when focused on one stat will give a lot of points to the other ones, and if you are not at a high level, and don't have a "premium" pact, you will have a lot less points to play with, and the automatic point attribution will feel more like a punishment than anything else.

Also, if you really want to stick with that idea? why not still allow players to modify their virtues manually a little bit if they want to do it?

covert beacon
#

Some other folks and I were talking in one of the feedback threads and sharing some screenshots from the devstream. It appears like the prisms now get the final say on all of our points, not just the ones from mastery. Are there any exceptions to this? if not, then what purpose will we have to choose totems that give less than 9 total points to use, and how will spending points on virtues in the pact skill tree work?

glass pawn
#

" The preludes wont launch this week"

naive ferry
#

Please post such important information in other places as well. The subreddit, the official forums, the main homepage. Not everyone is on Discord or on this particular server.

unkempt isle
#

Will the Virtue rework include a Champion of Alca/Paragon virtue classes?
And will the way pacts scale with virtues change as well?

hallow moth
onyx summit
#

I’ve been following the latest Devstream with great interest. However, I have a doubt regarding the relationship between Virtues (Spirit, Grace, Courage) and Armor Sets.

Even after watching the stream closely, I found the connection between Virtue levels and the minimum prerequisites/scaling for armor sets to be quite complex. Could you please clarify how these two systems interact?

Specifically:

How do our Virtue points determine which armor pieces we can equip?

Does the armor’s effectiveness scale dynamically with our primary Virtues, or are Virtues just a 'gate' to unlock the set’s potential?

olive hemlock
#

Will we have more virtues? Heard in a devstream that you guys are thinking about some kind of corrupted virtue. Will there be more of these types of virtues? How will these types of virtues affect the new system that you have developed?

random thunder
#

For Virtue prisms, with there be story driven ones from the main tales, like one from garren and one for bromius? I hope we can have more clerity on what this new system intails

eternal matrix
#

I'm concerned with how abilities are scaling with only one virtue, wouldn't that further limit the number of buttons we would press from 3 down to 1? If I wanted to play a Grace weapon, I would place all my points into Grace, and the only ability button I would press would be whatever is scaled with grace, since the other two aren't scaled to the stat choice.

I find it concerning due to the binary nature of how armour currently functions, if an ability's damage does not clear the armour threshold, it is going to just do 1 damage, and whatever already clears the threshold would prefer to scale the damage further up since the armour calculation is only applied once per hit, any additional damage added on top would be applied in full.

I remember from Devstream 12 that the virtue changes are to curb how players are stat dumping into a single stat, with only a change to the Virtue system without changing how enemy armour is calculated, we'll still have to fully invest into a singular stat due to how feast or famine armour is, making it more efficient to add to a stat that already clears the armour threshold, with a weapon that hits as hard as possible in as few hits as possible. I don't see how the Virtue rework has changed in what players are looking for in stat selection due to necessity of overcoming armour. Could you further elaborate on how the Virtue rework would help to curb that player behaviour?

tired jetty
#

Hello there envoys and Soulframe team!

I also am sharing similar concerns to most of the others who have submitted feedback specifically regarding the virtue systems.

One of the key issues at current is that only one virtue/stat (hereafter referred to as stat) is worth investing in, which is Courage. This problem is exacerbated by Tethren simply being the best general use case pact, especially in comparison to the other starter pacts. I understand the desire to curb what is right now the "meta" but in order to fully understand why this is a problem, one must first understand what the meta is and why it becomes the meta.

Meta, aka most effective tactics available, is not a unique problem to Soulframe. However, Soulframe has a unique advantage in that while the game is not out at current, some of these issues can be cut off at the base of the stump. However, in hyperfixating on the issues of players not applying stat points as well as how that ties to the current meta of Fellust Courage maxing, there are outside problems that are overlooked. The fact of the matter is, Tethren has the most synergy of all the pacts in how its arcanics all tie together, and establishes the gameplay fantasy well through one stat, which can be attached to any weapon through blessed joineries, eliminating any and all need for build diversity.

So how do we fix this problem? Grace, as a stat, actually needs to exist in a usable state. Spirit also needs this. However, forcing these into specific weapon types will not help the game, unless it is extremely flexible while in those bounds. I would suggest another look at the idea of scaling weapons off of only one stat per category, as that leaves bows as the only grace weapon, and no other options. Spirit too is a dead stat in this regard. Courage is the only stat that effects arcanics damage which leaves no point in choosing to level any other stat.

Also... why isn't stability working as intended?

In addition to this, stat point allocation has no tutorial. The issue with stats is not that people aren't spending them, the issue is people don't know how or why they can and should spend their stat points. Presets ruin player expression in stat allocation and multiclass style builds.

Finally, another major concern... most pacts don't have internal synergy or a coherent theme that ties to its lore. Garren Rood was the only one with lore relevant arcanics, and Tethren is the only one with good internal synergy within its arcanics. Sirin has none of these, and its lore and gameplay neither line up with each other, nor do Sirin's arcanics actually contribute in terms of gameplay.

To summarize:
-Fix virtues by making them all relevant. Bring Grace and Spirit up in relevance without curbing Courage.
-Add a virtue stat allocation tutorial. Players can't and won't spend their points if they don't understand the ins and outs of what each stat does and why it's relevant to their build, and presets prevent player creativity. Please don't add the preset system.
-Pacts need to be updated. Internal synergies need to be added, and all pacts should have their arcanics and abilities tie directly to the lore that they are based around.

This is long, but thank you for reading. I hope to see the game improve for the better and these points that I have raised should be considered, even if not acted on.

finite tangle
#

will virtues ever factor into stealth gameplay?

sick anchor
#

Appreciate the update and completely understand not wanting to rush it.

I had a deeper question around the Virtue Rework and the design philosophy behind it. Is the long-term goal for virtues to act more as positive alignment and identity, rather than hard gates or penalties? The recent direction with weapons, where aligning with a virtue provides benefits without punishing players who don’t, feels really good in practice.

Along those lines, is the prism system intended to be more of a guidance and onboarding tool, especially for newer players, rather than the primary way experienced players customize builds? A lot of discussion has come up around whether narrative-earned prisms could provide clear, thematic paths early on, while something like a more customizable option (possibly even a slider-style system) could exist later for players who want deeper control and optimization.

I’m also curious how you’re thinking about armor in this context. Even without explicit penalties, thresholds or non-scaling pieces can still feel like downgrades in practice, so I’m interested in how you’re approaching keeping non-aligned gear feeling viable and intentional.

Really looking forward to getting hands-on with the update and seeing how it all comes together. Thanks for taking the time to address these questions.

plain spear
#

The issue that is attempting to be fixed by the prisms, at least as stated by Steve in the in the dev stream, is the fact that unused points aren't being allocated by some players. Wouldn't this be solved by in game UI? I noticed that there appears to be a lot of missing info, such as what courage, spirit, and grace actually affect (which for some pacts doesn't seem to be anything). And it's unknown what is and isn't affected by the same lack of in game information. Upgrading the virtues doesn't affect any in-game information in regards to pact abilities whatsoever. So that even when players go into the available menus and allocate points, the only visible effect is weapon damage numbers, if that weapon is attuned to said virtue.
I understand not wanting to copy paste Warframe systems into a new game (i.e. arsenal UI) , but there is some merit in "if it's not broken don't fix it."

A lot of these points (if not all lol) have been addressed by other posts, so sorry for sounding repetitive for the the sake of getting my own opinion out there. Hope everybody is having a safe and warm February!

glacial crest
#

Will the prisms be an additive feature on top of the points you can already allocate? or is this being replaced in full? Locking the values in favor of prisms seems limiting, the main issue imo was how pact abilities (less so for weapons) scaled with virtues making courage overall better to invest in.

main junco
#

I keep hearing talk about making the building system easier, but I feel like the new Virtue system is going to make it much more complicated, removing any precise control over the allocation of points… Building is about calculation, and you are taking away the only precise way to calculate and build our character.
Give more control to building instead of taking it away if you want to simplify the building system, because by pushing players to build in a random way without knowing what they’re doing, you push them to get bored of the game.
I’m afraid that characters and building will become impersonal and generic with this system. That would really disappoint me, because I want to be able to build my character the way I want, not the way a prism forces me to and having to test for hours just to know the actual values given by the prisms, when it is currently much simpler to just assign the points…

glossy igloo
neat osprey
#

I’m concerned about the grace bonuses being solely focused on stealth. I my opinion attributes that increased nimbleness/stability/attack speed around large groups of enemies would have been better. Not to say that stealth can’t be good but it should stay as a pact ability in order to allow more grace build diversity

hallow moth
thin oasis
#

m just looking forward to new things to try out and see what happens lol

soft token
#

Not a question, more of a feedback and suggestion.

Tying virtues and the pact arcanics is good. Finally the association makes sense.

But the association with melee damage, armor, cooldowns and finisher damage? And armor scaling with Grace and Courage (As I didn't catch a single armor scale with Spirit in the stream). Not a fan. It's getting too complicated.

My suggestion is to scrap the new "virtue archetypes", move these bonuses (finisher damage, arcanics cooldowns, melee damage, headshot bonus etc.) to armor passives Monster Hunter style. Wyld armors could even have a "decoration slot" we could use to further customize these passives. And scrap the armor value scaling. This would still push casters and stealth builds to lean into light armor, basically doing the archetypes Steve mentioned without awkwardly forcing them.

neat osprey
covert beacon
#

Oh, I got a good question about prisms here:
When we get 1 new point added to our pool from some new source, assuming all other virtues are equal and we have a 'paragon' prism installed (even if such a prism is only theoretical):
What is the priority order for virtues? Which virtue gets the point in that situation?
This would answer some questions I have about rounding, or what I assume are rounding anomalies we saw on stream, I think.

velvet cairn
#

How will Fable's Virtue bonuses be handled?

oblique laurel
#

Will we see point stat allocation anywhere else in the future?
It‘s a big part of fluid buildcrafting.

twin wraith
oblique laurel
#

This is in context of virtues going away. It would still be cool to have fine tuning

twin wraith
oblique laurel
#

As in a replacement or in a different form. E.g. you can diretly tune durstion, strength etc independent of virtue

#

Or just any form of fine tuning, dont get the point of the prism thing. It doesnt fix any existing issues nor is it a better system having 20 presets instead of just keeping it as is

#

Sorry not the place for feedback

modest prairie
#

the main isse that the old system has is that the only visual indicator of how useful a virtue is is the weapon damage changing when you use the correct one on your weapon and 2-3 pact increasing courage to make you do more damage

#

sure ode tempest got nerfed so we had to use other pacts

#

and now wyld pacts have more virtue points while being able to have smite heal thats compfy

#

the prisms alone wont fix a problem but could become presets optionally could be a in combat virtue swap or could be tied to weapons and/or pacts, more importantly is to have clear indicator of what the virtues affect on pacts weapons and armor, do the virtue system have to be deep or is it beneficial to just have a simple 3 point slider or add a prism with 3 virtue attunment slots with room for expansion to 6 or 9 slots and one special crystal with unique stat based on what boss dropped it each giving different fixed virtue distribution etc etc...

stark monolith
#

with how hard it is to give feedback based on guesses (considering we barely have any factual information), id honestly just wish you had released p13 right after the devstream, let us try the changes for ourselfs, and then just work from there regarding feedback 😅

modest prairie
#

ye right now its more like im giving feedback to what would address the problem the change was made to address in short we dont know if the problem is solved but we can get an idea of what would solve the problem and incorporate what we know of the new system

digital wind
#

Hey guys, does anyone have any news on when the update will be released?

twin wraith
modest prairie
#

next week or next week after that or next week after that next week

#

🔜 😏

dusty adder
#

Hard to say, given that the Q&A Soulshort this thread is for isn't out yet. I wouldn't expect the update to drop like just a day after the Q&A.

twin wraith
dusty adder
#

Sounds plausible

wild delta
#

honestly i'd really like it if they dropped p13 earlier in the week instead, but i could understand why they might wait

maiden night
#

Part of me is eager to test everything, since we'll all be able to give better feedback once we can actually try it out ourselves, but if they decide to adjust things in response to the feedback we've given thus far and there's another delay in order to make that happen, I'd be happy with that outcome.

velvet cairn
modest prairie
#

imagine if we had a pre alpha server where we could test new features before they go to the live alpha server

#

not to be mistaken with the dev build

onyx hollow
#

Funny enough there are both a dev and a test build, with their own folders

modest prairie
#

the test build is for devs and qa

uneven slate
#

So what's the word on p13? We getting it this week or next?

main junco
stark monolith
#

the soulshort barely answered anything 😅 now i REALLY wish youd just thrown us into the update after the devstream

sage silo
#

i think im just cool with experiencing the new system and providing iterative feedback

#

i like the philosophy behind it but im not gonna know how successful it is until i get my hands on it

covert beacon
#

We got the soulshort?

#

I'm looking on youtube and twitch and cannot find it. What are you guys talking about?

dusty adder
half bronze
#

oooooo

#

nm

#

darth linked it

#

thanks darth

#

oh so weird...

covert beacon
#

Ok, I'm actually reasonably optimistic about this now. GG DE.

  • Pact tree points and necklace bonuses will act outside of the prism, giving us some ability to wiggle our stats around beyond what the prisms allow. (important for future number crunchers to test what's going on)
  • Weapons are getting several extra attunement pips, which should mean stronger scaling in their virtue(s) and thus more wiggle room in our builds where we can still reach weapon caps even if we're not fully specced into that weapons' attunement.
  • Grace sounds like it's becoming the damage stat, courage is the tanking stat, and spirit is the casting-cooldown stat. That's about as close to the tank/dps/heal meta as I think we could ask for in this game at the moment, and I support it 100%.
  • All prisms will come from objective-based sources, (NOT RNG) and even the ones coming from the factions are literally gifted just for finding them. No faction rep farm required. 11/10 -- no notes.
#

I still have a few questions, and I'm sure there's still going to be some 'rough edges' to the new system, but I'm good with it now. We can help them hammer out those problems after it's live.

#

One thing I wish I could say to their faces, however: prisms DO still represent a loss of control. Whether "most people" knew to go put points on stuff, or those points "did anything significant" is beside the point. You are still removing a decent chunk of player agency. I can live with it now, but that does bear being stated clearly.

half bronze
#

LOL say to their faces that's jokes

near stag
uncut harness
#

Still no answer about weapons and pact virtue caps. No real new informations on this soulshort. Seems like they want you to choose a pact, take the virtue that goes with it and then take weapons that work with these virtues. And can't go the other way if you prefer to focus on weapon.

covert beacon
#

Which I'm fine with. Let grace be the glass cannons, let spirit be the midrange healers / magic fighters, and let courage be our tanky bois.

near stag
heady folio
#

No information about when update releases
No certainty on pacts being very useful on more than one ability
Guess we wait and see

covert beacon
#

It's possible I misheard as well.

#

I'm really hoping grace turns out well. It's basically required to keep us from ending up in a spirit/courage meta.

rich summit
#

Nothing in this game is challenging right now, you can kill everything with no pact and a level 1 weapon charge attack if you really wanted to what we need or what the game needs is a decent way to scale things such as difiuctly and in turn player power with out having to rewrite the combat each time which I think this could help out with a lot. Full control will always be better ofc but I can see what they are going for, I don't think it will stay like this very long however but at least we trying new stuff!

All in for new ideas.

covert beacon
#

I mean, trying to do cogah bosses solo is reasonably challenging unless you use some kind of cheese strat or lean on the currently OP state of tethren.

#

But yeah, I'm all for them trying new ideas.

#

I still don't like the prisms for now, but I'll reserve some judgement on that until I see them in action some more. It's possible this will give the totems/necklace things more value, so maybe we'll see more/better options there to help offset it.

split dawn
#

I dont get it, so weapons still have virtue attunements and can be of different types, what did they mean by the note when they said courage = meelee, spirit = magick, grace = range weapons scaling?

rich summit
#

actually I tried to fist fight spider on cogah gave up after 30 minutes and 4% hp missing lmao

covert beacon
#

It'll probably be mixed attunement, though, so it might not change that much.

#

And a lot of you folks probably blessed it into being courage based anyway.

rich summit
#

they will be reset most likely (not level)

#

do we know what the new joinery stuff will do now?

split dawn
#

Well it kinda solves the problem of weapons not feeling different, i think

covert beacon
#

They'll be set to whatever their new defaults are, and then the blessed by mora joinery on them will turn into a mora red sun attunement pip.

covert beacon
rich summit
#

aha! nice

covert beacon
#

Not sure on the exact specifics of that, but I am seeing a lot more attunement pips on the weapons they did show on the soulshort than what we have now. So it looks like we're getting attunement buffs across the board anyway.

rich summit
#

yea for sure

split dawn
#

It looks like ill pick a weapon that i want to play with and based on that weapon ill choose my prism. Until I have everything maxed it will be the other way around, Ill see what kind of pact ability that i want to invest then find a weapon that goes along with this virtue split

covert beacon
#

With the loss of agency over our exact virtue layout, that's basically required so that weapons will continue operating at their peaks, even though like 10 points in our build got up and walked over to that other virtue we don't care about. (whichever one that happens to be)

#

Basically, being more strongly attuned doesn't directly raise damage so much as make it easier to handle a weapon at peak performance (at the weapon's cap) while being specced into other virtues as well.

#

I made a feedback thread talking about the math a while back, so I can dive into why that is if you want. I have the numbers, and can crunch theoreticals, but that's the general effect of higher attunements on weapons.

#

I'm really curious about what's going on with the paragon, since it was our only blended weapon up to this point.

#

They didn't hover over it though, so idk.

#

It was having scaling issues before, so I hope they fix that.

rich summit
#

paragon after patch prediction

covert beacon
#

Assuming they leave the base damage alone, if they fix the virtue scaling, it'll just become a universal weapon pick, but not the best pick in any category.

#

Purity would still be BiS for folks running courage builds that want a greatsword, for instance.

rich summit
#

I actually think it will stay tri fecta guessing it's the theme of the paragon pack

covert beacon
#

Sure, but like, right now with the 3 pips it has, we can't even reach its cap.

rich summit
#

yea its poopie

covert beacon
#

It needs to be upped to like 2 of each instead of 1 of each.

#

They're increasing the number of pips on the other weapons, so I'm hoping that's true of The Paragon as well, basically.

rich summit
#

yea would be nice because the sword itself looks pretty good need something to pull Purity out of my hands

covert beacon
#

If they also give it Purity's base damage, then I can see it being... possibly... the best weapon in the game, just because you could run it in any build in that event.

#

The only thing it would have trouble with is attack speed.

#

I suspect it'll be held back slightly behind purity for that reason.

near stag
#

Tbh I kinda think Paragon should just be cosmetic for when weapon transmog comes out. I dont love it competing with earnable weapons ingame as a buyable purchase. I know it will be giveable to other players eventually, but still

covert beacon
#

The Paragon is what it is, and I doubt that will change. However, if I could change it, I really wish it was like, a magic transforming weapon. Like have it turn into a bow if your build is grace leaning, or a staff if it's spirit leaning.

#

Having it be another sword feels a bit odd. We have a lot of swords. Granted it's in a new class of sword, but still.

smoky yarrow
covert beacon
#

Having it reflect the user's soul in a way that mattered would be a neat gimmick, even if it's just a silly gimmick.

twin wraith
covert beacon
#

It is possible that they completely overhauled attunment math, but from what I'm seeing, that doesn't appear to be the case. It looks like they just added more pips and moved on.

#

We'll know for sure when the update drops ofc.

near stag
#

3 pips on a tier 1 weapon is kinda wild. What happens when we get to tier 4 with joinery. Is it gonna display 6 pips? lololol

covert beacon
#

Idk, but it wont' really matter. At a certain point you start hitting your weapon's cap with a minimum in its virtue to the point that it becomes universal kinda like the paragon.

#

3 pips on a 100% grace weapon, right now, would mean 2x damage per virtue. The RIVT has a base damage of 26, so you'll only need 13 points in grace to cap it off.

#

If you added a 4th pip in grace with a joinery, you get 2.5x damage per virtue, and that number drops to 10.4 virtue in grace (11 in practice) to reach cap.

#

By the time you hit 6, we're talking 3.5 damage per virtue, and that number "only" drops to 7.4 (8 in practice) virtue in grace to reach cap.

#

Frankly, all of these numbers are goofy, but it's a noob weapon with noob weapon caps and stats, so it makes sense to let them hit cap early and feel like they've mastered the weapon.

#

Higher damage weapons effectively fight harder against their attunement, making them harder to use, which is an interesting way to build a system. The trouble they've been having is that the damage cap is operating, effectively, on a square law, and the attunement's controll over what it costs to use is a linear equation.

#

The way the two collide mean that we are probably going to see like 6 pips on higher damage weapons at some point, assuming they show restraint with newer weapon's base damage.

#

The paragon will need that at a minimum, for example, because splitting virtues converts part of the multiplication into addition, so it'll need more pips outright, and it's also already a higher damage weapon.

heady folio
#

Steve just announced update not releasing for a few days bc warframe update tomorrow and not wanting to ship same time >_>

velvet cairn
uncut harness
#

I bought a lot of weapon slots to keep all of them but with the weapons attunment changes I don't know if it was a good choice, seems they will be just skins now. Don't see why we should keep them once leveled up. All these longswords feels the same when you play them, if you remove the only difference they had.... Don't really understand what is the long term objective there.

junior fable
velvet cairn
#

Secondary attunement will be a thing, so between different secondary attunements and ratios of attunements there is a bit of variation possible.

junior fable
#

Secondary attunement doesnt really fix the problem in the long run if they continue to add new weapons for each type.
(Which they are going to do)

There need to be something unique about each specific weapon.

Best suggestion would be some kind of "Passive trait" that lets the player build towards a playstyle or enhance it, with that unique passive trait.

split dawn
junior fable
#

If its just about pure stats, then 90% of all weapons become "useless" in the long run.

modest prairie
#

the other option is to have every weapon in a category do the same damage i think

#

even "passive traits" will end up making 90% of weapons "useless" because one passive will end up being better somehow or the passives becomes so weak that it doesnt matter what they do

uneven slate
#

Unique weapon passives could cause a similar meta issue as we have w melee influence in WF

junior fable
modest prairie
#

it looks cooler

#

it might have a differnt moveset like the cleavers are technically swords but they move differently

#

and theres the whole advancement of account level by leveling everything

junior fable
#

Sounds like grinding for the sake of grinding - Dont like that.

modest prairie
#

in the end what is the purpose of getting new weapons

#

if not to look cool

#

having options is good

mystic wind
modest prairie
#

at this point i follow warframe for the story

#

every now and then i get an urge to do some grinding

uncut harness
olive hemlock
#

I think they will not add any different weapon movesets because they said in a past devstream that we will be able to create our own. Can’t find the photo of how that might look but I know for a fact that it is somewhere around the discord

split dawn
# uneven slate Unique weapon passives could cause a similar meta issue as we have w melee influ...

No matter what you do, there will always be a recommended "best" to use, even if slightly. Like right now, once you maxed all levels, would you stick to a weapon with 2 attunements or 3?
The passives do not need to be something drastic, and i am sure some creative minds can come up with stuff.

An example off my head would be a staff that boosts the spirit ability and a staff that has higher attack speed. You might choose the 1st one when you want to act as a support in coop but would choose higher attack speed in solo. Again this is basic thinking but i am sure some creative minds can come up with more interesting stuff

uneven slate
modest prairie
#

there are players that just level up and sell weapons

#

buying slots is just a way to make money from a free game if you didnt didnt buy a supporter pack to support the development of the game that will be free to play live service eternal beta

junior fable
#

There are tons of passove traits that could exists on weapons.

"After 5 basic attacks gain 2 HP"

"After using a pact ability gain 2% smite chance. Stacks 3 times for 10 seconds"

Anyone who have played an ARPG (Like PoE, diablo, etc) can come up with a long list of potential possive traits that would create some variety and unique weapons.

modest prairie
#

in warframe newer weapons tends to have passives and some older has hidden effects yet most either use the best non nerfed weapon or have fun with the new weapon when its new and then go back to the good ones after a while

junior fable
#

Yeah. People will end up having their own favorite ones in the long run.

But without any unique/different aspects to weapons, then i dont see the point in grinding new weapons at all.

modest prairie
#

have you thoght about the posibility that virtue will give passive effects to weapons and based on effectiveness of attunement

#

in the end what you want random passives or fixed passives

#

in games like diablo 99% of weapons ar enchantment materials or trash

junior fable
#

My suggestion is 1 unique fixed passive "trait" per weapon

#

To make sure that no weapons works exactly the same

modest prairie
#

or my class cant use this so ill try up pricing and sell it

#

so what you plan on doing when the weapon you want to use dont have a useful trait

junior fable
modest prairie
#

and a weapon you dont want to use has the trait you were looking for

junior fable
#

Each weapon group should have identical traits so that bows and swords both have something that works identically.

modest prairie
#

isnt that what the arts does

#

its not complete yet

junior fable
#

Arts is the same for all weapons of the same type.
Doesnt create anything unique about a specific weapon.

modest prairie
#

well they are changing arts...

junior fable
#

But it still counts for all weapons of the same type?

modest prairie
#

its mentioned its gonna be more like a customizable combat manual

#

but they havent showed any in progress for it yet

junior fable
#

Yes. But sword 1 and sword 2 is still the same?

modest prairie
#

some swords has more smite some has more raw damage

junior fable
#

But with such small differences then its impossible to have 20 unique weapons.

#

Of the same type.

modest prairie
#

we are quite front loaded with swords and cleavers

#

they didnt give cleavers separate arts

junior fable
#

I just want a lot of different and unique weapons and armors..

A systen that encourages the player to grind new items in the long run.

modest prairie
#

and throwing secondaries dont count as ranged rune

junior fable
modest prairie
#

arts and the pact point system are place holders

#

ite been in a state of we will place something better here later for a while

#

motes was the early runes and totems we still dont have the pact replacement for motes in the game yet

junior fable
#

Why would i want to grind and level 13 different swords from scratch, in the long run, if they all basically works the same and give the same power?

native moat
#

no one's forcing you, but it is beneficial for you to do that

#

oh, and also fashion

junior fable
#

How? Account level? If thats the main reason, then that is very boring design and could be done in a way more interesting way.

modest prairie
#

im sure they just like swords

#

also historically swords are abundant

#

wish we had more shield weapons

#

would be cool if they changed it so we can combine shield with any sword

#

would love bog and mora

#

in some sense shields could be a secondary and be compatible with swords polearms and staffs

#

daggers

#

would be comical to use greatswords as a lance

#

or have a kite shield and the banneret club

covert urchin
#

i think sword and shield should stay its own category but it would be cool if there was a like, vambrace kind of guard that could go in your sidearm

#

it can't be "used" (if you switched to it, you'd start swinging fists) but it itself gives defenses

#

but in the same line of thinking, you could just make an "unarmed" weapon type and just have a weapon in that type that gives some defense :p

covert beacon
covert urchin
#

mhm mhm

#

not to mention magick sidearms are really good

covert beacon
#

They are, and they have some of the better magic def totems, so they're a great source of that.

covert urchin
#

im gonna be switching to the new sidearm dual short blades because it's really funny to have 3 swords at once

covert beacon
#

Run the dual dagger primary for 4 blades at once. :lold:

covert urchin
#

seriously, it's criminal those things are short blades

near stag
#

Magick Sidearms are probably either THE or close to the best weapon type in the entire game lol

covert urchin
#

i think they're pretty similar length to wulder

near stag
covert urchin
#

and i get access to flitsmoke!

covert beacon
covert urchin
#

it'll probably play differently to the short blade

near stag
covert urchin
#

short blades don't get access to some of the really good melee stuff, like parrying unblockables, so they're still in-line with the agile side of melee gameplay

near stag
#

Currently all the dual bladed weapons are splitblades as they sheath into a single one

covert urchin
#

would also need to see what they do with weapon art trees, at that point

near stag
#

I get your point. I just think they can name and categorize the difference in a way that makes sense. I do think we're at the whims of what their weapon type skill tree rework looks like

covert urchin
#

mhm mhm

#

i've mentioned it before in #envoy-gathering but i do hope it's something like the skill trees warframe had in the past. it'd be neat to have a build instead of eventually getting everything

#

gonna go learn how to make a UI and make a 30 minute presentation on it lmao

covert beacon
#

I want to see a sword that acts like a staff and slings sword-shaped projectiles.

covert urchin
#

mistgale technically

near stag
#

Woof. Mistgale's animation drives me nuts. PLEASE give me some kinda of elemental animation

covert beacon
#

Ok, same thing but different: I want a staff that's shaped like a sword, and shoots sword-shaped projectiles.
It's fine if the lore is that it's held in its sheath by some kind of curse that binds it, but that the gem in its hilt still lets it be used as a magic focus.
You hold it upside down by its handle, and cast phantom copies of it. lol

modest prairie
#

imagine the polearm rune on mage staff charge attack

flint solstice
#

When are they going to release my samurai-style katana so I can play this game for the rest of my life?

weak eagle
#

I need my p13

olive hemlock
#

Dont think its coming this week…

weak eagle
heady folio
#

Friday 13th, p13, they said this week, give it another day, trust

shy basin
hasty sonnet
uncut harness
#

Perhaps better if they release it on Monday otherwise we will have bugs for the week-end

near stag
#

They've definitely stabilized a patch same day release enough for weekend play before

smoky yarrow
#

Monday is a holiday in Canada

half bronze
#

In most provinces of Canada, the third Monday in February is observed as a regional statutory holiday, typically known in general as Family Day (French: Jour de la famille)—though some provinces use their own names, as they celebrate the day for different reasons. The third Monday of February is observed as "Family Day" in the provinces of Alberta, British Columbia (BC), New Brunswick, Ontario, and Saskatchewan; as Louis Riel Day in Manitoba; as Nova Scotia Heritage Day in Nova Scotia; and as Islander Day in Prince Edward Island.[1]

covert beacon
half bronze
#

ooo ya I forgot about that

uneven slate
# modest prairie would be cool if they changed it so we can combine shield with any sword

This would allow players to create really interesting combo builds and in a away would balance itself by taking away ur secondary weapon for a shield so less dps for more defense. Also since they do utilize the animation mixing system (cant really call it AI considering it literally just blends animation movesets better together) it would not even be an "impossible" sized task for the animation team.

vestal terrace
uneven slate
#

my brain has just been going is it out yet, is it out yet... so whats the current word for p13?

stark monolith
#

Yaaaaaay ❤️

split dawn
shy basin
#

p13 is fun, camera work is awesome, for now I don't have any complaints about virtue changes (but I've been playing as a full spirit build since before)

crystal umbra
#

Player agency and choice is kind of cut from the virtue attunements, and I do hope that it's evaluated for the next Preludes.

stark monolith
crystal umbra
#

Joineries had at least improved that expression, but it's all very hard-coded

sage silo
#

tethryn prism + mendicant king setup feels fuckin great

#

no more ridiculous kiting during gank fights i can actually just fucking tank hits

zinc star
#

They said Prisms wouldn't be a grind, would be a one-off mission

#

Literally a faction grind to unlock faction level and then grind to earn faction points to buy a Prism

#

Exactly what we feared

sage silo
#

that isnt what they said lol

zinc star
sage silo
#

? that is a reality

#

i did that earlier

#

i did exactly what steve said lol

zinc star
#

"you visit them, you don't sign up" Why then are there prisms in the faction list that you have to level up your faction?

#

That is a grind, my friend

sage silo
#

because steve’s not talking about those prisms

#

he’s talking about the starter prisms

#

the only promise through the devstream + devshort is that they wouldnt be a part of the drop tables

#

you are making up a guy

zinc star
#

"They will be story based, they will be objective based"

sage silo
#

preceded by “in the future”

zinc star
#

Sun's arse

sage silo
#

i just think its really funny to say the devs are gaslighting you because their second iteration of a feature that will most assuredly be reworked and attuned due to feedback, like yours, didn’t work out the exact way you wanted it

#

instead of “i was lied to and gaslit” we can say “i dont like this being in enclaves”

zinc star
#

I just think that more grind is a bad decision

sage silo
#

yeah and thats a normal thing to say

zinc star
#

Especially for a fundamental game mechanic

covert beacon
#

At least they give us the better prisms at rank 2. The mixed ones at rank 4 aren't really worth it atm.

#

Mixed scaling math is... still basically exactly what it was in p12, which means the scaling problems The Paragon had back then are still here to haunt our mixed weapons now. Which in turn makes mixed builds inferior to the specialist options.

iron lava
#

Was wondering where the new prisms were, I indeed did not check the enclaves

mystic wind
covert beacon
#

I would contend that grind doesn't have to be unfun. But there's certainly ways to make unfun grinds in games.

#

I'm not against grind so much as I am against grinds that turn into slogs where i'm forcing myself to work at a game that I should be coming to after work to unwind.

#

The faction grind in this game is a slog. It's boring and repetitive, and requires you focus on slowly grinding out some silly numbers over the course of several IRL days/weeks so you can get a few things they probably should have just handed to you at the start of the game.

#

I try to level some stuff while I'm at it, but it just makes it take longer.

#

Removing the cooldown between faction switch was a huge step in the right direction IMO.

#

That cooldown never made sense anyway.

sage silo
#

yeah something needs to be shifted around in order for the objectives to not immediately grow stale

modest prairie
#

it still feels like everything is courage the main question is mostle about what weapon type you want to use and how much armor you want

jade cypress
#

If you were a new player who started end of preludes 12 then logged in to p13 i wouldn't be shocked if you just logged back out again. We probably don't see as many complaints because most experienced players who are on forums can instantly get all the available prisms.

covert beacon
#

I actually asked for a perfect 1:1:1 split prism before I realized they were going to nerf our virtue totals by as much as 27 points in some (wyld) cases.
Now I don't think it's worth talking about anything closer to center than the founder prisms are.

#

So yeah, gotta agree with you. They should have given us the basic 3 outright, granted the mixed ones for visiting each of the three factions, and at most put the extreme ones at like rank 1 or something.
But really, I'm with you, they should have given us all of them out of the gate. Virtue spreads should be something we have agency and control over from the get-go, not after grinding for hours/days/weeks.

#

And locking up 3 of the better ones behind founders packs is so close to pay-to-win I want to puke.

#

"They'll be able to get them eventually" does not apply or excuse something so foundational to our builds being locked away behind a pay wall now.

velvet cairn
modest prairie
#

my conclution is that prisms create more problems than they solve and the problems are compounded for new players

iron lava
#

Wait so only founders got the extra specialized prisms?

velvet cairn
iron lava
#

And others got nothing?

velvet cairn
#

Not yet, Wyld stuff is supposed to be farmable, but not yet.

iron lava
#

Eh, seems like a hard miss with that one

velvet cairn
#

If it makes you feel better they are not that useful imo.

modest prairie
#

im most cases it seems like i wont be using the wyld prisms the split ones are overall better

iron lava
#

I did get them all myself so assumed it was a "starter" package for everyone else as well

#

Just wish they weren't gatekeeped with grind

#

Thankfully it's all subject to change

zinc star
split dawn
# modest prairie my conclution is that prisms create more problems than they solve and the proble...

When I look at it from from a new player perspective (not knowing there was the ability to split virtue at will), I wouldn't mind much? I have my starting pact and Prism and I start unlocking things as I play more including the ability to be more than the starting build, there is some kind of charm in it. However, Virtue requirement for weapons is kinda .... I just cant think of anything good for a new player.

#

I have a full enclave ranked and i feel limited in what weapons I can use. Now working on a 2nd enclave.

covert beacon
#

Weirdly, this change is actually terrible for the ingame store, because new players that want to buy a weapon with arcs (like, let's say they buy the latest staff because they wanna be a mage) won't be able to use it very well.
And if they made the mistake of picking grace or courage as their starter? Well they're just extra SoL until they can find a prism that at least gets them on the right side of the triangle.
But even then, they can't actually change factions to get the upgraded prisms to play with that staff well until they get to faction rank 3 and farm up a shimmer and craft the appropriate talisman.

#

Sure, the founders packs exist, but not everyone wants to shell out $30 on a f2p beta game.

#

I can see it being easy for a new player to make a few basic mistakes early on (because the game doesn't tell you how much grind changing later will cost up front) and then feeling ripped off.

#

Or worse, forced to spend $$$ on founders packs if they want to do anything early on with their builds.

modest prairie
#

the main difference is that armor also has a minimum virtue requirement now

honest badge
modest prairie
#

that doesn help people now now does it

covert beacon
near stag
modest prairie
#

in the end everything is courage now still

near stag
modest prairie
#

it might be an bug but secondary virtue on weapons dont seem to scale

near stag
honest badge
covert beacon
#

you runnin courage oscelda or something? :lold:

near stag
#

Idk about it fully being the weakest. A lot of very strong abilities scale of Courage. I may value it higher than spirit on some builds. But courage absolutely isn't the only thing to stack for the best builds

modest prairie
#

if you arent using a split prism then im not sure

#

its either courage spirit or courage grace

covert beacon
#

Courage tethren is still crazy strong. Frankly tethren is just strong regardless, but that courage scaling is massive.

near stag
#

disagree. Spirit/Grace split with Flintsmoke Rostrum is among the best builds in the game atm

modest prairie
#

i can probably find a weapon that needs spirit grace

near stag
#

It doesnt beat Tethren Fellust. But that is a Fellust problem. Not a courage problem

covert beacon
#

They've had plenty of time to nerf/patch it, and havent. It's looking like less of a problem and more of an intention at this point.

#

I really expected them to nerf it in this patch.

near stag
#

Also don't agree with that. They likely dont want to overcorrect and wanted to see how the playerbase interacts with Courage through prisms before fully adjusting a Pact-Defining ability

covert beacon
#

They did nerf quicksilver joins, for instance, but felllust is here

near stag
#

I dont think nerf is out of the question. But they have to be cautious about touching a Wyld ability

honest badge
#

How much more damage does fellust do when running full courage vs. Full grace tethren

near stag
#

Difficulty is not a defining trait of Soulframe currently. So having a busted pact is probably not as big of a deal currently as wanting to adjust inherent systems

covert beacon
modest prairie
#

you do alot of damage anyways

near stag
modest prairie
#

i find myself not using fellust most of the time

near stag
#

Best way to test it would likely be to use an un-joined Paragon and just swap the prism stats

near stag
modest prairie
#

its the passive heals that helps

covert beacon
#

tethren spirit mage is also solid AF. Been running that lately.

near stag
#

Like buildTeth however you want. Again, Fellust is a Fellust problem. Not a courage/stat problem.

honest badge
near stag
#

Courage just makes an already busted thing. More busted

modest prairie
#

i dont find fellust to be a problem

covert beacon
#

I've tested teth on both a spirit and courage build. Fell lust is significantly stronger with courage, but I couldn't put a number on it.

near stag
#

That's fine. Most of the playerbase would disagree or at least acknowledge how strong it is.

covert beacon
#

I don't think fellust is a problem outside of dealing with bosses at this point. They might want to make bosses have some kind of resistance to it.

#

Feels fine elsewhere.

near stag
#

If you want Fellust to be busted OP, thats fine. Thats the kind of game you prefer. But it doesn't change the fact that it completely negates difficulty and requires almost no player skill to use properly

near stag
modest prairie
#

would love to change it but that would be removing the ramping damage and make all shots same damage and then fining what damage that should be

#

but that would remove the identity

near stag
honest badge
#

Armor thresholds are a problem, they encourage the biggest bonk strategy. We need damage reduction % for armor or grace weapons will always be crap in high level cogah.

near stag
#

We kinda just need armor to be more interesting. I'd love to see armor have Monster Hunter-esque traits as stats on them. Maybe lock those behind Virtue Requirements or something

vestal terrace
covert beacon
#

My current take on virtue damage is that grace is the leader, courage is behind by like, a hair, and spirit is in last by somewhere between 20 and 50 points of damage on most weapons. You can almost make up for that last bit with feybalt, if you can get any, but there's a big difference between ramping up damage to match everyone else, and just being like that all the time.

honest badge
covert beacon
#

That hairs width between grace and courage gets wider the better you get at sneak attacks and the more stealth options you have, sure, but the point is it's kinda situational and specific.

velvet cairn
near stag
covert beacon
#

Yes, the wyld prisms are ingame. Only founders have them right now.

vestal terrace
#

thanks lol

covert beacon
modest prairie
#

that would be paragon but they havent made it

near stag
#

I dont think it's nearly as situational as you think

#

Also very good with stagger damage totems

modest prairie
#

but with the current points we have paragon would have to add more points to be useful

covert beacon
near stag
#

Which still factors lol

covert beacon
#

I mean, my spirit mage has a little grace too. What's your point?

#

I'm talking about grace-focused builds.

near stag
#

My point is that you were measuring Grace vs Courage. My point is that on ANY greatsword build you will be staggering enemies. So Grace in general will be proving damage

#

No you were talking grace vs courage lmao

near stag
covert beacon
#

I'm comparing focusing a build on grace vs focusing on courage. The difference will be minor most of the time, but situationally grace can widen that gap if they get luckier.

near stag
#

In that case I disagree. I think grace builds will on average be much stronger than non-fellust courage builds

covert beacon
#

Sure, if you have the paragon, apparently.

near stag
#

I would wager a Blessed Paragon with Grace will outperform a Blessed Purity with Courage, yes.

modest prairie
#

funny enough i think ode tempest is now a grace spirit pact

near stag
modest prairie
#

because how even uses fireball

covert beacon
modest prairie
#

only paragon founders have paragon greatsword but theres no paragon prism

#

atleast not yet

near stag
modest prairie
#

purity has slightly higher damage but not as much stagger

near stag
covert beacon
#

I'm not going to base my opinions on various virtue focused builds off of exclusive/limited items. Heck, I don't even really like talking about spirit in terms of the latest staff and armor, because the drop rates are so bad.

#

If you want to convince me that grace is so much stronger, let's talk in terms of items people can actually get.

near stag
covert beacon
#

Fine, we've noted that The Paragon is a problem and an exception, as it has been since it landed.

near stag
#

What so wrong with saying like:
Best: Paragon (p2w currently)
Second: Purity (very close. still worth it)
Last: Needle (far behind)

modest prairie
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my setup is the new bracers and purity with thetren

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in medicant armor

covert beacon
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I like my paragon as well, to be clear, but in terms of talking about general game and virtue balance, talking about the one weapon designed to break the mould doesn't really help.

near stag
covert beacon
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If you're going to ignore Tethren's courage ability and treat it like some kind of outside force, then I'll do the same with the paragon.

modest prairie
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i feel paragon doesnt take enough points from virtues

covert beacon
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because both need work

covert beacon
near stag
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I mean Paragon vs Fellust are two completely different issues with completely different fixes. Yes they both need to be addressed. But that doesn't mean we should discount them

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I wouldn't leave Fellust/Tethren off a tier least. It just goes in it's own category

covert beacon
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Then I wager fellust purity wins

near stag
modest prairie
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thetrens ability might be a little overtuned for now or other abilities might be undertuned so i feel de needs to set a proper standard there rather than making most abilities unnoticable

near stag
modest prairie
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the problem with thetren is that the two other skills dont do anything that i can measure

near stag
modest prairie
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what ive notices after this patch is that i dont need to use pact skills

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i dont know how you do 20 damage but sure

near stag
modest prairie
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even without joinery a new magic bracer does 75 damage

near stag
modest prairie
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a lot of my damage comes from the explosion rune

near stag
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Well that can be said of any rune to be fair

modest prairie
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also charge attacks

honest badge
# modest prairie the problem with thetren is that the two other skills dont do anything that i ca...

Call has a large damage reduction in addition to adding more damage to every attack.

Clash has the initial stagger aoe, but also has a buff that increases stagger done and reduces stagger received.

His 2 and 3 are both offensive and defensive buffs. Spirit tethren means you can keep these buffs online more. Grace tethren is a stagger beast with clash.

20 damage is really big when your using anything faster than a longsword.

With % based DR call will save you from one-shots. (Wiki says 50%, which is insane in cogah)

Clash's stagger resistance can literally be the difference in making the final fellust blow or getting interrupted by an attack.

covert beacon
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Yeah tethren is just stacked. Oscelda is too, but also Oscelda's abilities basically all stand alone, so I would like to see a bit more class cohesion like tethren has.

iron lava
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Yeah, love Oscelda for solo play

wild crag
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Are we geting new update today or what?

floral vector
barren mason
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What makes you think we'd be getting an update today?

wild crag
velvet cairn
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Pack pact?

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As far as I remember the only Pact they talked about was the Fencer one, which has no ETA.

wild crag
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its focus on swords

velvet cairn
wild crag
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time 7:10

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but looks like we are getting just new bow and new blade

barren mason
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Those came out yesterday

barren mason
floral vector
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Make sure you've not got patch notes muted...

split dawn
twin wraith
floral vector
covert beacon
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Mostly it sounds nice. I doubt it means much.

sage silo
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“second” as in your chosen representative in a duel

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is my reading

near stag
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Seconde is a defensive move in fencing

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its a parry

sage silo
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makes too much sense sorry

near stag
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High Tierce is a guard positioning in sword fighting that readies yourself for a parry

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I dont think this is a riddle. I think it's just an explanation/flavor for the pact

floral vector
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(Shrugs, doesn't speak fencing).

neat osprey
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Controversial opinion sabre is the best fencing sport

floral vector
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Where I come from, "fencing" means actually building/working on a fence.

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Wouldn't mind taking an electric fence charger to some ode... And some barbed wire... And a fence post...