suggestion-discussion

[real trellis]

wait nevermind no they didn't lol they rolled that part back

[tight fox]

dude was only spending like 50 gold or something and just face tanking people in GC xD

[real trellis]

Yeah I mean that is absurd

[amber solstice]

Most people don't want what's best for the game. They want what's best for their personal gameplay. So many people are delusional Uncle Ricos thinking they could throw a pigskin 5 miles over a mountain if only coach put them in. Most games try to enforce the delusion because it is popular and sells well. Not all games are E for Everybody. The devs said it at the beginning and they say it in every dev QnA.

It is unfortunate that this game is only DnD inspired game with good feeling combat so there really isn't a good alternative game or mode for casual/anti-hardcore/anti-gear/anti-pvp crowds. At this point I hope they add modes for them with simple restrictions with minimal resources devoted to them and keep making the game the way they want without trying to appease everyone while getting yelled at from all sides.

I don't think balance is perfect and think mods like all attributes shouldn't exist at all. Movement speed in general in the most broken mechanic. I also think that most people blame gear when they should be blaming most of the game mechanics that give the stronger player a bigger advantage. There needs to be more equalizer mechanics, weaker players need to be able to avoid and extract, and the game needs to actually wipe every team now somewhat frequently. Having the game force everyone to the same spot, being able to so easily defend the escapes, and PvE only being dangerous to newbies and low geared player are all just giving the stronger player extra advantages.

Both times they got rid of all the modifiers on gear pretty much the game got super stale for me. Looting was pretty much just meds and the only hint of excitement was if they had a surgical kit. Still won almost all fights, deaths were usually from getting 4th or 5th partied, but a game built around power and risk and reward having no power or risk or reward had me happy to wait for the next hotfix to see if they change their minds. I didn't have to wait long.

[tight fox]

Honestly I would want to see a few weeks of them making LR hell the same difficulty as HR and see how that goes

[stuck perch]

You're not wrong, although Ironmace has been promising many things and doing the opposite in the long term. The classes need to be fun before balance ever comes into the picture and by this I mean all the classes. This fits some of the values Terrence laid out during early interviews. Yet they've been changing their minds on everything they've said to take the game down this path and this over and over again. They claim they want to test things but the things they test never come back unless the community complains enough and even then the community doesn't always complain for the right things. How fun is rogue post nerf? How many nerfs has bard had and has any of them fixed the purported problem with the class? How many times will they nerf warlock until it has a single bland way of being play?

[ember swan]

Here's what I think in order to balance the game a bit better, because somewhere in between the last patch and this patch is where we need to be. Loot wise right now it's fine for normal. But buff high roller loot back to how it was in hotffix #15. As for +1 all I think it's right where it should be. Any raw added damage stat ( additional physical, weapon damage, true physical damage) needs to be capped at +2. Also limit the amount of gear it can appear on. Maybe only rings, necklaces, gloves, chest and the weapons get those rolls. All the other stats are fine keep them how they are it's mainly the added damage that's the problem, ttk is way too fast right now. Edit** Also bring back the merchants as well. It filters a lot of the gold out of the game and is really convenient for people who can't play everyday all day. So far compared to when the merchants were good and had decent options for gear there have been less people playing.

[spark elk]

Game is still in beta disguised as “early access”.
Truth is we paid to beta test the game. So expect more and more issues, bugs, changes, etc.

Our only hope is that at the bare minimum we can get better communication from the devs and a better scheduled cadence for maintenance, updates, etc.

[tight fox]

first room I spawn in and get a +4 weapon dmg longbow hmm 🤔

[short heath]

Yeah, loot is legitimately easy to come by across the board right now.

[woven marsh]

If the devs are going to dump buckets of shit onto the rogue as they have at the behest of whiney Wizard players, the least they could do is let Rogues stealth in the storm.

[tight fox]

talking more about the roll

[tight flicker]

things on the floor, such as smaller rocks and small tiny braziers. LEMME WALK OVER IT, THERES NO REASON IS SHOULD GET STUCK ON IT

[jagged flicker]

Anyone else think that hitscan spells got little counterplay outside "Don't be in range"

-my friend said that; but like, EVERY ABILITY can be summed up with Don't be in Range.

Hitscan spells are easily abused by cheat software. I would love if they were all solid projectile personally.

[cobalt root]

True, chain lightning be like: if I see you, you're dead

[crisp quiver]

For the love of the game we need to reduce gear disparity, Neck beards can be mad all they want the average player is gonna be ok with the changes. Instead of pandering to the 1% sweatlords help out the other 99% who want to play a better game. TTK felt good for those few hours after patch 15 since people didn't have crazy stats on every piece of equipment they had. Make +all only available on jewelry/capes and watch how much better it feels without everyone stacking +all on every piece of gear they have. There is a reason you have the stats the way they are, Any higher on certain stats and it becomes unbalanced so why allow sweats to become so overpowered you can't do anything against them? +weapon should not be on armor since that makes 0 sense, Make the rolls on items make more sense like armor can't get any dmg buffs like armor pens or +weapon dmg and weapons can't give damage reduction.Loot rates can for sure be reduced for gold an otem rarity to no overflow the game. Don't fold to these no lifers when you know what your vision for the game is. Hold true to what you said and the most of the community will support you!

[cerulean kestrel]

Buffing / healbotting a W holding LMB Barb is the lamest most unengaging gameplay imaginable

[worn island]

Nerf barb and ranger

[weak coral]

[frigid berry]

@ironmace Please Bring back the good drop rate with current stats.

[glacial sphinx]

droprates pretty good imo

[cerulean kestrel]

Ranger isn’t even good in buffball meta

It’s just casuals and solo donks who don’t know how to mix up their movement that are complaining about Ranger

[strange badger]

Two emotes give a big advantage. The coffee resting emote makes so you don't make any sound when getting up from resting, and the hold the line emote reaches forward so far you can look cleanly through a lot of walls.

These 'bugs' need removed. I refuse to believe they're features.

[cerulean kestrel]

Thanks for the tip on the hold the line emote 😏

I agree about the coffee emote, although it is a bit more visibility that’s not nearly as much of a drawback. However I’m not certain that there’s no audio, it could just be that there’s no audio for the coffee drinker POV. Haven’t tested it

[strange badger]

True, I'm not certain the coffee emote is only silent for the one using it or if it's silent for anyone either. I'm fairly sure it's silent for everyone though. Playing with other people using it I don't think I'm noticing it.

Should I remove the info about the hold the line emote and modmail them? I admit posting exploits isn't exactly the wisest idea.

[frigid berry]

they both have more power than any class and ranger is range

[short heath]

Ranger is direct counter to buffball meta, what do you mean? It's literally used in every antiball comp.

[abstract swallow]

most reasonable take I've seen in a hot minute, which comes as no surprise
this was basically my experience to a T

[sturdy tulip]

Ive been using rouge more and more and came up with ideas on a potential cool rework. Would appreciate some feedback to bounce off of. Perhaps it could be made similar to other classes where you have an ability wheel and use knowledge to use rouge tricks. You should be able to have invis, caltrops, & smoke available for better pvp options. Leave the damage and other perks (double jump, pickpocket,hide mastery, ect) as is. His tricks should be more available. With appropriate cooldowns to avoid abuse. Thoughts?

[short heath]

If you're going this route, there would have to be a form of resource associated with their use (caltrops has 3 use charges, restored by using a campfire kit, for example). Not a bad idea, but I think it wouldn't be a good idea to tie the number of tricks allowed to have "memorized" to Knowledge specifically. That turns a dead stat into a useful stat for the class, and will affect their gearing options/considerations, which would inevitably take away from their potential damage output by substituting a normally taken damage mod for Knowledge, which might cascade into the playerbase thinking that Rogues "need more damage", when in reality they're just gearing for useful stats to the class that just don't aid in the damage output category, arguably of which is the entire design of a Rogue in 90% of games. When I think anything along the lines or Rogue or Assassin, I think back line nuke, aka that Wizard or Bard is gunna die, even if I die in the process (obviously preferably not). Your job as a Rogue is to infiltrate and blow up a back line without being detected by their front line, ideally, turning the fight into a 2v3 very quickly.

[cerulean kestrel]

I would assume so too but I’m gonna test it next time I run with a group if I remember.

Not sure how I feel about posting the exploit publicly. One argument that can be is that spreading awareness , even in more people exploiting it, makes it more likely to get fixed

[cerulean kestrel]

Yeah probably a bad take, guessing their job is to kill the bard or wizard ?
Just don’t know how good it can be against a 200 hp 70% resist Barb getting buffed

[cerulean kestrel]

Ngl pretty lukewarm and pretty clearly true rational take. But that in itself is a rarity here

[short heath]

Traps and ranged dps. Barb tries to zug, ignores the ground, hits trap, takes arrows to face, flops to ground. With Crossbows still being able to hit 80+ to the head on Barbs, it's a pretty easy win as soon as they hit a trap or get too cocky and misstep even slightly. And if you're running Longbow/Recurve, you can 3-4 shot Bards and Wizards before they can really be impactful on the fight beyond their buffs to the Barb... then you just kite and win the 1v3.

[cerulean kestrel]

To your point about a mode with easy extraction and gearing for lesser skilled players: LR gobbo caves is now that mode with the 7 player cap and 6 escapes.

I agree with everything you said but one addition I would like to see is independent balancing between solo, duos, and trios. Changes to skills/perks that only occur in their respective mode. I think this would go a long way for the “pulling in each direction to appease all” category

[short heath]

I don't think they'll ever do independent balancing. Not for a LONG time, if they do at all. The game is still in EA, needs a LOT of polish work across the board, and balancing is still pretty abysmal for trios, which is what they've said many times that they're balancing around.

[cerulean kestrel]

I appreciate your input, I’m a gobbo HR leaderboard grinder so my perspective on 3s is inexperienced and shallow.

Geared Rangers can really 3-4 shot armored barbs ?? The math doesn’t seem to check out on that but I could very well be wrong.

[cerulean kestrel]

Very good point about the abysmal balancing in the intended mode. That alone should put independent balancing far onto the back burner. But even simple changes last seasons would have gone a MASSIVE way to reduce the ~70% play rate of rogue in solos.

[short heath]

Crossbows can, yes. Longbow not so much. 3-4 shots with Longbow will take out BARDS and Wizards. Maybe you misread Bard as Barb?

[cerulean kestrel]

Oh my bad I did misread

[floral totem]

WTF why cant i shot wizards anymore?!?!?! Whats the point of playing ranger?!?!?

[short heath]

I mainly play HR Crypts, so I'm not very experienced in GC matches, but they are specifically balancing around trios until they find a comfortable spot. Once they have that, they plan to move onto other things (talent trees and possibly independent? I'd like to see it, but don't think it will happen for a while).

[cerulean kestrel]

I’m still skeptical on Ranger being better than running the buff ball comp yourself. I can’t imagine it’s that hard of a counter unless the opposing Barb is unga bunga into traps and the wizard/bard are not mixing up their movement to force strafing lead guesses out of the ranger. And even if so, countering the dull ass meta is far from a reason to nerf them.

[cerulean kestrel]

And I’m perfectly okay with that, as you say trios was always their intended mode. So I’m fine with solos being on the back burner. Do hope they get around to it at some point

[solemn jackal]

I just got hit by earthquake while I was already double jumped far off the ground wish they'd fix that

[short heath]

Crossbows will still one tap Wizards, but Longbows won't anymore unless you're hella geared.

[cerulean kestrel]

I don’t think that’s true with wep damage being back, longbows should 1 tap wizards to the dome.

I guess it depends on what you mean by hella geared we probably agree actually

[short heath]

Nah. Not since they reduced all Bow damages. You'd have to be fully geared out to one tap.

[tight fox]

Like he said you have to be really geared to one shot a wizard but realisitcally really geared just means like 2-3 pieces with weapon dmg rolls with current mods

[cerulean kestrel]

The perk modifiers being multiplicative with headshot modifier make the threshold for 1 shotting wizard to the dome like 45 damage or some shit

[short heath]

Depending on the str/health mods the Wizard has. Their base health is 48 damage threshold.

So as long as you get more than +8 weapon damage across your whole kit you can one tap to the face with a blue Longbow max roll.

[cerulean kestrel]

48 damage threshold on 75 health ? What armor rating and headshot reduction modifier is that calculated with. Doesn’t sound right but I could be wrong it’s been a while since I crunched the numbers

Are just calculating 48 damage 1.65x? I guess that’s probably fairly reasonable since you’re not including physical damage modifier, but you’re also not including armor reduction

[short heath]

Yes, that was my assumption. No physical damage is roughly equal to their almost negligible pdr mods, so they might as well cancel.

[cerulean kestrel]

Seems reasonable

I’m pretty sure physical damage modifier Carrie’s a bit more weight though since it’s calculated before headshot multiplier

[short heath]

Big brain move by IM would be to add a random modifier to all gear for headshot damage reduction so you'll never know if you deal more damage to the face or the body to any given target.

[cerulean kestrel]

Then again it’s harder to build strength now adays

[cerulean kestrel]

It’s not even worth going for the head on someone mixing up their movement anyway tbh

On stationary , predictable, or slowed targets it is though if you have good aim

[short heath]

Imagine having +25% headshot damage reduction and a Crossbow Ranger headshots you and you don't die. They'd have an aneurysm for sure.

[zealous cipher]

Suggestion: Make matchmaking based off if the player has opted in to be a trader. Make trader and non-trader pools for matchmaking.

[sullen vortex]

you can just buy/craft gear from the vendor anyway. would be more trouble than it's worth

[trail flower]

Wouldn't it be cool if you could interact with zombie toxin clouds, say you fireball them or throw torch and they explode in flames

[zealous cipher]

That's not my point. It is still better than being matched with players that have bought a whole set off of trading. It is very unlikely for vendors to be selling a whole set of good attributes.

[edgy cape]

When will the new Goblin Cave finally be removed from the game?

[sullen vortex]

Some would say it's worse being in lobbies where you can't kill people for good gear sets. Either way it's not that hard to get geared so still more trouble than it's worth.

[zealous cipher]

Then those people can opt in to the trader pool... and your next sentence is just false. It is much easier to just buy a set with BIS attributes than to farm matches and wait for vendor rotations. This is just common sense.

[cerulean kestrel]

Qeues were pretty shit when matchmaking was split

[strange badger]

12 or 14 trap rangers are insane, and paired with cleric earthquake, quickshot is really strong.

[cerulean kestrel]

Your latter point is true, which would make the non trader qeue even more feast or famine than the trader qeue. People who keep their good merchant/craft gear would dominate lobbies even harder

[cerulean kestrel]

Great point. I think I’ve been swayed on my opinion from the points that people have made. Molotovs too

[sullen vortex]

I think you're just overestimating high end gear disparity. Go look at the stat scaling curves. There's a soft cap. If you can't get all blues in 3 or 4 matches then that's a you thing. You also have to be level 15 to get into trader so the sub15 folks can't just opt in to trader.

[cerulean kestrel]

No he’s really not. 200 hp 70% PDR 70% mr barbs. + wep damage on rangers. + magical damage on wizards. The gear disparity is massive

[sullen vortex]

you can hit 200 hp on a barb just drinkin a beer in greens

Idk why you guys don't just go buy BIS gear from the trader tbh. Much easier than gearing up naturally so I hear.

[cerulean kestrel]

200 HP with minimal resistance is a fraction of what it is with maxed resistance

[cerulean kestrel]

It’s really not even close. So much faster to kit up in trade. Was less of a disparity before merchant nerfs though

[sullen vortex]

After 4 matches last night I had 30+/30+ on a warlock, just blues. To your second point, THEN GO GET KITTED IN TRADE. What game do you think you're playing? Maybe they should make a gearless lobby that can be opted into so all the folks afraid of an unfair fight can play.

[cerulean kestrel]

I do bruh, I was top 5 wizard on gobbo HR leaderboards in rogue meta lol

I was simply commenting on the discussion to the persons point

I get the misconception because most people comment based on their bias and personal wishes rather than the relative health of the game

to say that gear disparity is overestimated is just plainly untrue. Regardless if it’s a good thing or a bad thing, that’s a different conversation

Persoally I think what’s healthiest for the game is a middle ground between patch 14 and patch 15

[tired ingot]

Suggestion: Divine Protection ability should give both MDR as well as PDR

[abstract swallow]

they just need to make EVERY bonus big, but only appear on specific slots so that statstacking isn't the forever meta

[sullen vortex]

It isn't so bad that they need to split the player base over it. I see BIS get killed by blues alllll the time. You were top 5, I'm sure you've done it countless times. Me, personally, I gear naturally(because I like to gamble) and just use trade to sell loot. There's a lot of gray area in between BIS and timmies.

[worldly bramble]

game is unplayable as a solo

[tight fox]

well that's a lie

[cerulean kestrel]

i like that

[tight sparrow]

Make duo only in caves and dungeons not only Ruin map (awful map imo)

[sonic birch]

Duo queues was never in the devs vision originally so I doubt it

[tight sparrow]

So they need to adapte to players @sonic birch

[sonic birch]

Their long term plan is to make ruins 3 man again but the upper level of a 3 map tier system

[tight sparrow]

should be solo duo and trio every map, becaouse why not

[sonic birch]

Nah trios is what majority of the player base likes.

[abstract swallow]

trios is what the game is built around
the whole gimmick of the game is being in trios and your team size bleeding the longer you're in the dungeon, it's why we have the portals system

[tight sparrow]

xdd no

[sonic birch]

Cos this game only has about 20k player concurrently at best. You’d have empty lobbies

[sullen vortex]

Yea having certain items carry certain stats is solid. Damage on weapons, armor on armor, movement on boots, rare stats on jewelry. that makes sense.

[sonic birch]

Like boss fights etc are all made for trios in mind too

[tight sparrow]

but why u got problem? @sonic birch its channel for sugestions so my sugetion is make every map possible to play as u want not playing 3 vs 1 always

[sullen vortex]

could also have some damage on gloves

[tight sparrow]

stop still complaining

[sonic birch]

I’m not making a problem or complaining just responding to yours, I assume that’s what the devs are thinking

[tight fox]

I think weapon damage should honestly only be on Weapons and trinkets

[worldly bramble]

Gathering hall in now dead and no one trio with random

[sonic birch]

I like having the ruins duo actually but I play it as the last resort if I can’t find a trio

[tight sparrow]

they will adaptive as always, we giving money they giving the most possible enjoy in game for everyone

[sullen vortex]

yea i mean thats fair just throwing darts at the wall

[worldly bramble]

I think all classe should have more HP

[sonic birch]

Because it’s so easy to find a trio team, I feel like I only play duo if I have no choice which is rarely

[sullen vortex]

eh, we do that and barb is going to end up with 500hp lol

[short heath]

Literally only 1/4 the EHP when capped on PDR and MDR. People who haven't been there don't know.

[sonic birch]

Melee classes will just have more HP to close the distance, the game will be all crazy again if they say increase the HP by 25% while keeping the lethality of weapons the same

[short heath]

Healthy to a casual/new player and healthy to players like you and I are different, though. I advocate for new players and casuals simply because it aids in the retention of those players, which is one of the most important things to IMs current financial method and subsequently the longevity of the game in general. You'll always have more potential new players and casuals than you will ever have dedicated, hardcore long-time stayers. So doing something like applying GBMM only to no-ante maps and not touching HR queues with any form of matchmaking is what I suggested, which appeases both majority groups (leaderboard pushers and new/casuals).

[sullen vortex]

I think they should do an account based level and once you reach a certain point you graduate to the "veteran" lobbies. Having new players not thrown in with experienced ones is good.

[neat hearth]

movement speed

[short heath]

Best and most important stat in the game. Yep.

[cerulean kestrel]

100% agree your first 2 points. Although not quite BIS last patch since BIS was absurd with +3 all existing but I agree with your point.

I definitely had to build a lot of kits in trade last season with how easy it is to lose a kit on wizard in the gobbo HR rogue meta.

[wet mortar]

That’s why rogue is busted because they can literally dodge any melee attack and come in for a hit before the cooldown is up

[sonic birch]

Lvl 15 lobbies will be missed. I tried to get more of my friends to try the game last patches while it was a thing. Definitely helped keeping them in the game

[sullen vortex]

for sure, there's been points of disgusting disparity but they are reeling it in imo. Better to balance than split the player base clean in half.

[cerulean kestrel]

Well, I do see your point but I don’t necessarily agree that a middle ground would be unhealthy for the top 1%. Skill diff would be just as important with a thinner gear disparity.
As you say, what’s healthy for the average player is generally healthy for the game as a whole so long as it doesn’t reduce skill expression to a meaningful extent .

[sullen vortex]

yea, and if it's account bound then smurfing will get eliminated.

[cerulean kestrel]

Absolutely, splitting the queue is not the way. I argued against that for sure

[sonic birch]

I didn’t find smurfing that big a deal cos the top players were busy doing HR leaderboards. Everyone else is within the same kinda skill bracket..

[short heath]

The difference between skill difference and gear difference is that a skill difference is always preferred to lose to over a gear difference. 90% of the time if someone loses to someone due to a skill difference, they might be salty, but they aren't going to complain that it is a problem. When people slap a 70% PDR Cleric 9 times with their white Rapier and deal all of 50 damage total to that Cleric just for them to full heal in a single cast because of a gear difference, then get bonked twice after the Cleric misses the first 6 swings and they die... They're 100% going to complain that the gear difference is an actual problem, because they clearly were better in the fight and still lost.

[sullen vortex]

yea I'm not a fan of splitting the queues just that if it's going to be done then it should be done based on new vs experienced players. Gear should be balanced enough that it isn't going to break the game.

[sonic birch]

But I dunno maybe the devs need to do something for brand new players.

Something else, like a tutorial solo mode where you can learn to at least fight the 5 most common enemies in the dungeons or something

[whole warren]

Alot of peeps made big money rerolling to lvl 1 and running wraith/champs and uncontested hell bosses in the sub 15.

[cerulean kestrel]

I agree of course, and well articulated. Sorry I’m a bit confused because of multiple conversations but are you for or against reducing the gear disparity ?

[nova mango]

killed original chivalry and will kill this game too.

[cerulean kestrel]

Is that true ? That’s kind of a shame. Although I haven’t played it myself yet I was looking forward to doing duos with a friend

[short heath]

I would like the gear disparity to be reduced, and/or some form of GBMM be put in place for no-ante matches for new player/casual player retention.

[sonic birch]

Yes sir they said this was their vision like when they first released ruins

[cerulean kestrel]

Oh okay, we are on the same side of the debate for that aspect then.

I don’t think GBMM would be great as that would just lead to optimizing thinks being the meta, but maybe a gearless mode idk. Don’t love the idea of splitting the player base after how long the qeues were last time

[cerulean kestrel]

Have they commented on it recently ? Was it in the recent q and a? Maybe they changed their minds and want a duos now but I have no clue

[sonic birch]

I think they wanted to make ruins the top level of a 3 dungeon delve. But make Ruins very easy that you’d get to a red portal easily if you wanted to.

But they also said they wanted to make it so you could skip ruins and go directly to crypts

[cerulean kestrel]

So you haven’t seen any comments from IM on it since the original idea of ruins ? I do remember that ruins was supposed to be the initial floor to crypts but I have a feeling they changed their mind since then but idk

[sonic birch]

They said in a Q and A, that after you go down from ruins you’d enter another match making pool of players going into crypts and then again for inferno

[cerulean kestrel]

Right but that was a long time ago unless you’re saying they commented on it recently ?

Just trying to clarify when it was you heard this

[sonic birch]

Kinda. Like the surviving players from 5 lobbies of ruins go into 3 lobbies of crypts and so on and so forth

[short heath]

Gearless mode would be interesting.

Queues were really only bad outside of prime time for US East servers during 1-14/15+ queue patch. I very rarely saw no-ante lobbies not being filled, but HR lobbies would go roughly half-filled at almost any point in the day outside, including during prime time. It was pretty random.

[sullen vortex]

idk much about chivalry but seems like their lobbies are just way too big to split the player base at all.

[sonic birch]

Just watch One Peg videos, his Q and A ones if you’re interested. It was a couple weeks ago

[cerulean kestrel]

Even LR gobbo was taking 3 minutes to fill a fair amount of the time on US west, which was crazy to see after it has always been insta

[cerulean kestrel]

Sorry just trying to clarify when it was you saw this since you’re not being clear. It was recent then?

I’m not really invested enough to go through the whole q and a myself right now

[sonic birch]

Part of that plan was recent but they also said it when ruins was released. 4th play test I think so ages ago

[short heath]

That's indicative that the majority of players intentionally were remaking characters to get into the lobbies they preferred. If the majority of the playerbase is doing everything they can to avoid 15+ queue, then it's pretty obvious where the average player opinion lies on matchmaking and dealing with overgeared nerds running through no-ante lobbies.

[cerulean kestrel]

Right, so I think that any sort of gear based matchmaking is going to see that same problem

[rose folio]

This game needs a shared storage system and more storage, why it hasn't got shared is beyond my understanding unless they played BDO and thought their storage system is great ( it f#$king isn't). Though more space is needed since they added crafting, that should be a given unless annoying everyone for no reason is what they going for then i understand

[tight fox]

I don't believe gear disparity is as big an issue more so the fact that fully kitted middle ground players would rather run LR with a lower risk of death and much more pub stomping power rather than go HR for better loot yes but much more risk just because LR still gives comparable loot

[sonic birch]

But they realise it’s very hard to implement so they aren’t doing it any time soon, cos even now it’s hard to balance the loot in maps between LR and HR and give a good learning ground for new players too

[cerulean kestrel]

Honestly I don’t even think it’s a risk/reward issue so match as a “people love noob stomping” issue. Maybe with some gear fear mixed in, which to your point could be considered a risk/reward issue

[nova mango]

a human just can take that much abuse. if you have a hard cap that segregates the sweats from the timmies, as soon as the timmies promote they will just be steamrolled into quitting. that is what happened to the original chivalry.

[sullen vortex]

yea that's fair. I can see that.

[cerulean kestrel]

Lol I remember that in Chiv

[tight fox]

yes there's that too but adding onto that the fact that you still get comparable loot for much less risk doesn't help the issue

[sonic birch]

I’ll try find it for you give me a sec

[short heath]

Why? GBMM would objectively reduce gear disparity in no-ante lobbies, which is why the people who were remaking were remaking - they wanted to avoid geared nerds from ruining their experiences. With GBMM on no-ante lobbies, those players who aren't BIS stand a much better chance of not having their gaming experience ruined by a BIS player/team, because there is a much higher chance of surviving against a BIS player/team.

[cerulean kestrel]

I don’t think the gear is necessarily comparable. It’s a big step up but you’re right if you mean that it’s not generally worth it to risk a big set against other buff balls for only a big step up when the LR gear is plenty profitable

[cerulean kestrel]

Appreciate ya ❤️

[tight fox]

Yeah that's why I stated middle ground players

[sullen vortex]

Honestly I think the moral of the story is that this game isn't for the weak willed. If people aren't fine with getting dragged through the mud by better/more geared players, until they learn, then this probably isn't the game for them.

[cerulean kestrel]

Because you’re gonna have the same issue of people avoiding the higher gear matches and the queues being maxed out in that sub group.

[cerulean kestrel]

But is that necessarily the way we want to go with the game ? Should we not try to be inclusive if we can find a way to make it work for everyone ?

[short heath]

They wouldn't have a reason to avoid high gear matches. The reason they avoided matches is because of the gear disparity. Now that they can get that kind of gear, they're going to have a more even playing field and will be more inclined to play with their better gear. GBMM is better all around the board for casuals and new players because it reduces gear disparity and gear fear at the same time.

[sullen vortex]

idk if there is a way to make it work for everyone. Better/more geared players are typically going to drag their weaker opponents.

[short heath]

This. This is why I advocate for no-ante GBMM.

[cerulean kestrel]

Ohh okay I see what you’re saying, that is a good point.
I don’t necessarily think it’s true though, since that was already the case with the sub 15 lobbies. People could get their gear on recycling 1-14 characters and move it to their main but that didn’t happen. People just avoided high gear lobbies

[tight fox]

Also just a side note Limit on the point of noob stompers I've had multiple crypt matches today with fully kitted teams in either full blues or purps holding 2nd to last and last circle just because they can xD, me being a solo ranger rather than a rouge can be pain in regards to stealth

[cerulean kestrel]

You might be right that there isn’t a way, but it’s worth trying to find a way in early access IMO

[cerulean kestrel]

Yeah it’s super lame. It’s like smurfing in SBMM games like starcraft. Loser uncompetitive players frankly

[short heath]

It did happen, just not that much. Most people just enjoyed the longer TTK in 1-14 lobbies as compared to super short TTK in 15+ I feel like.

[cerulean kestrel]

It did happen, but not at a high enough rate to save the queue times as evidenced.

[sullen vortex]

for sure. Maybe just a simple tutorial/training room is the answer so that queues don't get split but people can go figure out how stuff works.

[cerulean kestrel]

I think longer TTK is definitely the way to go. And off topic but dismantling the buffball meta

[sullen vortex]

learn mob movements and whatnot

[cerulean kestrel]

I feel like gobbo LR changes is a step in the right direction for that. It’s practically PvE gear up mode with 7 players, 6-7 escapes, and high loot drop

[short heath]

They've come a long way with buffball, but it is definitely still a problem at high end. Low end it is very easy to deal with right now.

[cerulean kestrel]

Well I’m off to the dungeons I appreciate the great discussions ❤️

[short heath]

Was duoing no-ante crypts last night with a friend and we killed a few buffballs that were slightly overgeared on us, so it's doable right now at low end for sure. High end it's still a nightmare though.

[sullen vortex]

yea. It feels pretty good. Was a nice balance of grinding loot and every other match or so getting rumbled by another player or 2 or 3.

[short heath]

Cya later, good luck down there.

[sullen vortex]

GL thanks for the chat

[cinder skiff]

I would like to say my opinion regarding pre lvl 15 lobby. As when you added it so many people not only new were happy as this was an actual opportunity to rather level up or get some gear. As before and now it is almost impossible to survive more than 2 minutes in normal lobbies as a fresh character without being killed by GIGA geared team. If I can even call it "Killed" as we were absolutely wiped in 6-7 seconds time. I am saying this not as new and unexperienced player as I been playing since PT2 and I got another characters leveled and geared but not me or my teammates do not abuse the fact that we have a massive gap between our gear and gear of most people in normal lobbies. So we are going in to HR map. And test our skills there. Now either Ruins or Crypts map are unplayable or at least me and my friends don't find it enjoyable to play there with new characters as you get wiped no matter what in 2 minutes time.
So my suggestion would be to get pre lvl 15 lobbies back to give people more compete opponents. I also think if you would add like "gear score" type system which would not allow you to go in low lvl lobbies if you have at least 2 pieces of blue/purple/leg item equipped. In my opinion lobbies will be more balanced that way.
I do really appreciate what you guys doing and creating and what I said above is not a complaint it is just a fact and feelings of a most players who are trying to lvlup or are new to the game.
Sincerely

[lone crescent]

With the current state of the game you open a random chest and you become giga geared

[abstract swallow]

I don't often agree with Khan, but he's right
literally my first game into last patch was the corner mummies spawn with 3 large chests and I had more blue items drop than I could carry
gear is so incredibly overtuned right now that even the tiniest timmies can rock full kits with 0 effort and minimal time investment

[lone crescent]

I go into HR to regear, i loot a couple of chests and take the first portal and i have enough money to buy a full gear

[buoyant yew]

I think if they put more focus on things like quests, vendor rep, and more perks (for all classes except rogue) it would help against steamrolling more than balancing. quests would split up the lobbies intentions further(mining, questing, bossing, monster part farming, new to the game exploring), vendor rep would allow them to sell good gear without breaking the wipe day 1 and potentially lower loot tables in general, and the perks would add more build diversity making you feel like the inevitable steamroll (that always happens in an extraction game) isn't the same thing you've seen 100 times over

[abstract swallow]

to be fair, they didn't want to release early access without the full 3 floor dungeon, questing and shop rep, and collapsing lobbies
all of which would have made things a million times better for new/casual players

[lone crescent]

In my opinion that's a huge misconception, i don't understand why making the gear more rare and harder to obtain could in any form "fix" the geared team in normal problem.

Harder to find loot will only harm players who don't have loot already

[buoyant yew]

definitely, I just feel like they're trying to focus on balancing forgetting that the game is so raw that it will be completely new in 6 months. on the other hand, it allows them to focus on balancing pvp while there are no other features.

[abstract swallow]

the focus on balance is because they made the mistake of implementing solos in their team-based dungeon crawler
so 99% of community feedback is people throwing tantrums because, surprise, their team-based dungeon crawler doesn't work well as a 1v1 dueling mordhau clone or a battle royale

[stuck perch]

Yeah all these balance patches are killing the fun out of the game. If they let the classes be strong they'd balance each other out and they could focus on building content. Instead they're obsessing over how one spell makes a different class feel small and repeatedly messing with loot balance while they still have 4 classes left to add.

[buoyant yew]

ive been playing and following since the first playtest, I didn't consider that their vision of the game has changed while mine has stayed that same. I remember when goblin caves first came out and there was loot balancing, my first thought was 'that's not even the main dungeon who cares' not realizing its a main part of the playerbase now

[abstract swallow]

it's arguably the single biggest part of the playerbase now, so they permanently fucked themselves over having to appeal to them
a bunch of people here to play the quickplay easy mode instead of the actual multi-floor dungeon the game is based around

[stuck perch]

They keep promising things or talking about their vision and then they throw it out and replace it with the same mentality other games have brought on by people coming in from those games.

[buoyant yew]

I notice the patches especially this month seem to be very questionable and cater to different groups of players causing nothing to happen. but The devs do repeat they are collecting data and since the game has been out less than a year, I'm hoping that while it looks like were going in circles were not

[short heath]

Gear quantity is certainly still... abundant. Yes. The most recent two patches honestly is the healthiest the game has ever been, imo.

[abstract swallow]

it's about as healthy as the playtests with event candy were, which isn't particularly but it's better than nothing

[lone crescent]

Solo is balanced enough right now

Balancing the game for solo is needed, not only cause a part of the community plays there, but seeing how a class performs in a solo environment will highlight its weakness and strong points

The problems with balance atm starts when you start stacking buffs in trio

[lone crescent]

They said from the beginning that their intent was to test a bunch of things

[short heath]

Low end buffballs are easy to deal with. High end buffballs are still meta and a nightmare to deal with. I was duoing in no-ante crypts with a friend of mine last night and we killed a few buffball trios who were slightly more geared over he and I, but the moment we went into HR with our BIS sets, we still got rolled over like a stack of playing cards by the first buffball that came our way.

[lone crescent]

Hotfix 15 was the best balance patch imho, gear should be balanced around stat min maxing and base weapon damage, +all is the dumbest shit ever and +weapon, +add phys and +true on every piece of gear is equally dumb

[buoyant yew]

I think the drops are in a good place, I don't like that fighters just inherently have more gear choices than other classes so they get more loot

[stuck perch]

Return classes to how they were at launch, keep things like the movement speed cap to fix the most egregious problems and just move on with content. When all classes have been released then look at balancing things with a full toolset. Otherwise their balance point will be so low that the game won't be any fun even if it's relatively balanced.

Balancing is a complicated science, and often times adding tools to deal with something that's otherwise a bit too strong is much better than just straight numbers nerfing. Numbers nerfing really should be the last resort when it comes to balancing content.

[abstract swallow]

+All being capped at 1 and non-All being capped at 3-4 is probably the best balance they've gotten
+All existing is good since it creates less specialized but easier to trade loot that has obvious value, is more directly useful for players still progressing/building kits from scratch, and benefits hybrid classes that are already more gear dependent than their peers

[short heath]

Eh. I feel like that's fine. Jack of all trades, and all that. I do think, though, the high end of PDR/MDR curve still needs to be reduced pretty drastically.

[lone crescent]

A game with bad balance cannot last for months, it worked in PT only cause the play time was short

[abstract swallow]

2-week wipes would be nice, it would really wrangle a lot of the problems
but obviously they want to see and study those problems live

[lone crescent]

+All makes Barbarians with 30 agility possible when it's clear that the class should be that fast

[short heath]

Eh, 2 weeks would be a bit quick for my liking. Maybe 3 weeks. But yeah, data. Gotta suck it up. It's EA.

[lone crescent]

There's no point in building a class with agility or strength when you can have both with +all, and every other roll makes that piece of gear garbage

[buoyant yew]

yeah, I'm still run into fighters with 80%+ PDR. I like the idea of a suit of armor being strong and tanky if it rolls well, but with more gear options means more stat rolls turning to fighters using near perfect gear because they can wear 8 armor items

[short heath]

You can still focus one well with individual stats going to +4. Get like half +1 all, half +4 str or +4 agi and you're set.

[stuck perch]

The game in this state won't last for months either. And even if you were to find that perfect balanced all that work towards it goes out the window when you add new content. You're also very limited with available tools for balance because a large amount of planned content has yet to be released.

[stuck perch]

That's why there's a hard cap on PDR and MDR as well as move speed.

[lone crescent]

You can get both + all and str or agi or +all str and agi all together on one piece of gear

With just armor pieces you can double your damage, that's bs

[abstract swallow]

yeah, that's why I like them making single-stats much larger than +all
it actually opens up some build variety while keeping +all around

[short heath]

Yeah so do 50/50 with 50% focus on + str or + agi, whichever you prefer, and then +1 all for the other 50%. It's not a dead stat, just not literal BIS.

[lone crescent]

You can have +all, +3 strength and +3 agility on the same piece

[abstract swallow]

if they want to squeeze, give them the juice

but also yeah, this is why positive stats need to scale in brackets like negative stats do

[stuck perch]

negative stats?

[lone crescent]

I played in Hotfix 15 and it felt the best imho

You don't need to build full agi to catch players, classes that should be squishy can't be tanky, classes that should be tanky can't be immortal

It's ridiculous that if you actually get BIS you can have up to +10 all, +31 weapon damage, + 31 add physical and + 20 true, you get way more than double your damage from armor pieces

[stuck perch]

Classes that should be tanky shouldn't be fast either.

[lone crescent]

In Hotfix 15 you had the option to use a tanky build, a speed build or a hybrid, with +all you don't have to choose cause you can have both

[stuck perch]

Yeah I didn't mind what they did to the gear. I'm salty about them having too low of a balance point for classes.

[abstract swallow]

I'm not sure why they bumped magic and weapon damage back up after explicitly leaving them out of what they said they were gonna buff back

[lone crescent]

Cause players in general chat freaked out after they lost their gear

[abstract swallow]

true
fuck 'em
wipe all gear, legacy gear is a fuck, 10,000,000 dead stashes

[lone crescent]

And somewhat they convinced the devs to give them back (or they found a compromise to make them happy enough)

[stuck perch]

Just wipe the game more frequently and we'd be fine. Too much hoarding is bad.

[lone crescent]

If the loot drop rate stays the same they could wipe more frequently

They just need to make every base weapon usable (I'm talking about battle axe)

[stuck perch]

As much as that would be great, balancing those at this point is pointless as they'll add more content later and it'll mess up any work they do now.

[buoyant yew]

the general chat is full of people complaining, threatening to quit the game, or play a different game. so I'm not surprised the devs are doing some reactive balancing but I do think its in the games best interest to focus on developing and adding features to round out the game not balancing and trying to make a 5 star meal out of what we have right now

[abstract swallow]

I'd also much prefer they go back to churning out actually important shit like the missing first floor of Forgotten Castle and collapsing lobbies or the MISSING STATS

[lone crescent]

They made all those patches in the past to nerf scaling to Wizard and to nerf weapon damage but somehow the damage rolls on armor are still in the game

Wizard was OP due to add magical damage and true damage stacking, not due to scaling

[stuck perch]

missing classes, more spells and skills for classes that need them instead of nerfing classes because their compatriots aren't living up to their power level.

[small furnace]

@short heath I know you're suggesting GBMM still but I think they finally hit the sweetspot for HR. I actually feel heavily incentivized to go in.

tbf that could change when the leaderboard sweats come back, but right now it feels very good to just go in, grab some high end loot and you always make back your money + some

[lone crescent]

I'm convinced they will build a balance team in the future

[stuck perch]

Maybe 10 years from now. The problem is nerfing existing things means balancing around a low balance point, they need to raise that balance point or the classes will become bland. How fun is rogue at the moment?

Right now they're putting out classes and other content at the speed of an eye dropper and taking months to balance it. Something that would be easier to do all together.

[short heath]

I definitely agree. But, as I've said multiple times before - no amount of increased incentive will bring the players who overgear and underlobby, so to speak. The people who do that kind of thing only do it because that is how they get their feel good brain chemicals. As pathetic as it is for them to get that by effectively kicking puppies, they don't play the game the same way you and I do, so they won't want to go to HR like you and I do... otherwise, they'd already have been doing that once they got good enough gear to trivialize pve. Also, my suggestion is specifically for no-ante lobbies, keep in mind. While I know you're suggesting this will potentially push some of these players from no-ante into HR, I am not at all confident that will be the case, and it is kind of apparent that already isn't the case. People are still complaining about overgeared people murdering them in no-ante lobbies. Just scroll up a bit, you'll see.

[lone crescent]

The only class that is kinda unplayable atm is Rogue, the only playable build is with 30 throwing knives@stuck perch

[stuck perch]

imagine how unfun the game would be if they brought all classes down to where rogues are now. It would be balanced but it would suck.

[short heath]

I main Rogue and actually am very pleased with where it is at currently. I've killed plenty of overgeared Ranger/Fighter, Cleric/Fighter, Bard/Rogue duos in Ruins with my buddy (we ran Rogue/Ranger), and the funniest part is having a full purple Ranger panicking hard as hell when I roll up to him (Rupture/Weakpoint, btw - no Ambush in my build currently), he pulls out his purple Spear, and by the time he turns to swing on me once he flops from my damage over time. I had a mix of green/blues and he was all purple with a blue cape.

[lone crescent]

They already plan to buff Rogue

[tired ingot]

Honestly I think they do it because its pretty much entirely risk free and they can extract with a boatload of money every game. Might not make as much as high roller but then again they don’t need to as they can just immediately que into another one

[buoyant yew]

rogue isn't too bad, I was worried they were gonna kill it when people complained that a rogue ambushing you kills you. like how a rogue works in every game ever. But they just split up the power into perks creating builds, which is what every class needs

[lone crescent]

One thing i wish i knew earlier is that it's full kit or base kit, going in half geared is dumb af

[stuck perch]

Yeah they also said they were done with nerfs with hotfix #14, that they wouldn't be balancing the game around solo queues, and that fun was going to be more important than balance. Yet they've gone against their word at every turn.

[buoyant yew]

wizard has 5 different elemental spells but perks only support 2 of the categories

its forces people into encountering the same "unfun engagment"

[short heath]

Nah, dot Rogue is still very much viable and people don't expect it. I personally like the dot build more than I did Hide/Ambush builds focused on max weapon damage.

[tight fox]

can't you stack up the dot build to some absurd degree

[short heath]

Yeah if they let you hit em 5 times you're dealing a solid 25+ damage per second for 5 seconds. It actually kills anyone but Barbs or super geared Fighters unless they get a heal from a Cleric or pop Second Wind. That's not including modifiers or Rupture.

[grave coral]

I still 2-3 shot people with +weapon damage. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[lone crescent]

They can't completely ignore balance, when Rogue was op game was unfun, when Wizard was op game was unfun, now that Warlock and Barbarian were op game was unfun, Bard op game is unfun

[tight fox]

remind my squishy ranger self to never run into you in crypts

[lone crescent]

I may be biased cause i play Barbarian

[stuck perch]

Wizard is also supposed to be the class with the most spell versatility. It happens to be the one with the least number of spells at the moment and the one with the most knowledge. But that doesn't mean we should remove spells from other classes because the wizard has less. While that could be called "balancing" it's reductive, instead of adding to the game.

[grave coral]

Back to my point, you have no idea what you're talking about. So don't talk.

[tight fox]

No need to be rude.

[short heath]

I mean, I 4 shot a blue+ Barb as dot Rogue last night.

[small furnace]

The disconnect here is that geared rogue is more of a menace than he has ever been, ungeared rogue is just miserable to play, by far the least fun starter kit and class to build up.

[grave coral]

Nah that's the problem with this community. People just whine and complain and throw around "facts" when they have no idea what's going on in the game.

[lone crescent]

Geared Rogue is still op

[short heath]

I actually disagree. I think ungeared Wizard is way worse than ungeared Rogue.

[lone crescent]

Ungeared everything is miserable

[small furnace]

I guess it's close but you can kinda skill diff people with ungeared wizard. I don't feel the same way about ungeared rogue.

[short heath]

Fair, lol. Fair.

[tight fox]

eh ungeared ranger is pretty fun

[lone crescent]

Ungeared Barb has ridiculously low dps with that shit weapon

[short heath]

That's true, but if you modify your perks on Rogue you can still compete and deal pretty solid damage that people don't expect. Too many people rely on Hide/Ambush to realize the strength of Rupture/Poisoned Weapon.

[tulip bear]

I want guilds. A large group of like-minded or similarly skilled individuals to play with so you don't have to go to gathering Hall and gamble with randos. Maybe even a guild bank where you can share gear.

[short heath]

I will run Weakpoint/Rupture, Lockpick, Poisoned Weapon, Jokester, Double Jump on naked runs simply because it provides max loot potential and max damage potential with base kit gear, while also maximizing how easily I can put any random mods on gear I find throughout the first run to use, then will modify perks on my subsequent run based on what kind of random mods I got on gear I found.

[tight fox]

guild would be interesting but probably won't see anything of that sort for a while if they even do do it

[tulip bear]

Would be a good alternative to friend list that won't be redundant when we get steam friends back

[neat mantle]

Grey meta best meta make rare quality rare to find again

[stuck perch]

They can't completely ignore balance but they can take care of the most egregious problems while leaving the finer points for after. Egregious problems like the move speed before the cap at 340, PDR before they capped it at 85%. These balance fixes were necessary. The bard nerfs that were important enough were the memory capacity one that made them more gear dependent and the Din of darkness/Piercing Shrill attribute application factor one. The rest could easily have waited until the rest of the content was released.

[short heath]

I implore you to play HR a single time so you can realize how wrong you are about Bard 🤣

Bard is STILL ran in every competitive HR team comp because they are STILL strong as hell, even following 3 patches in a row of nerfs.

[azure fog]

Bard is also stronger now because they have unlimited lock chest access while being more useful to team than rogue, so the buff to gold chests was a HUGE buff for Bard. especially in HELL and bossing where you can get the marvelous locked chests

[tired ingot]

See, the thing with this tho, is that if people are not geared it comes down to player skill on who wins the engagement. Who can actually block with a shield or is good at evading hits. If you’ve got a +All +5 additional +3 true damage spear with a wind locket on… it’s just dps at that point and hold W, But maybe that’s my preference, I had the most fun in the 1-14 lobbies where people didn’t have access to trade chat

[lone crescent]

I agree, damage rolls need to be removed from armor

[stone marlin]

Naw keep the damage rolls come on now adds alot of diversity

[short heath]

🤣 who doesn't like dealing 54 damage with a white Rapier because all of your other gear has +weapon damage?

[stone marlin]

Well I agree certain characters like rogue might need some move speed balances but that would fix that issue

[tight fox]

lantern can roll weapon dmg slayer fighter here I go

[stone marlin]

Why not play archer if u wanna play grimy 😂

[short heath]

You're late to that game. Lanterns can roll anything. Found a purple one with + 3 weapon damage, + 2 true physical damage, and + 4 movespeed.

[tight fox]

give it here

[stuck perch]

I play HR, I just more frequently play LR with a basic set.
Like I've told you several times before.

[stuck perch]

Yeah because the whole reason why I wanted to play bard is to skulk around and loot chests while my team is clearing or play a couple songs every 2 minutes. Last time I played bard my party told me not to play songs unless I had to open a locked chest and for the rest they bought me a luck+ potion and told me to stick to looting. Was bored out of my mind.
They were fine if I played songs once we engaged in pvp but preferred that I made myself useful with a crossbow or falchion.

[inland hill]

Remove the instant cast for wizards shit is absolutely unbalanced

[stuck perch]

But warlock can't have a decent magic shield? It was the counter to wizards being that strong now it's just a waste of memory capacity.

[lavish plover]

I had a similar experience

[inland hill]

its a 20 dmg shield double that of the clerics of course its getting nerfed

[stuck perch]

That only affects magic damage which is useful how often? You think cleric shield should be comparable? Fine buff them both back to 40.
Oh and Cleric's "Protection" spell is tier 1, takes a single point of spell capacity, Warlock's "Eldritch Shield" is tier 5, takes 5 points of spell capacity. Tell me again why it should be comparable?

[inland hill]

how?

a 40 hp magic shield is completely unfair. its also gives them a dmg buff

you also dont have spell slots...

[stuck perch]

Yeah the damage buff is a seperate thing. But it's hard to use given the duration of the buff you get from it. I'm fine with that damage being nerfed down. But It's still not comparable to a tier 1 spell. But if it makes you happy increase the cleric's shield. However consider that the cleric shield counters 5 classes hard, and is still useful against 2 more. Warlock might not have spell slots but spamming my spells in combat puts severe limitations on me. But by all means increase the protection shield. Might make it more useful if it can soak at least a blow of the heavier weapons.

At the same time you complain that wizard is broken. Well if you had a warlock in your party with a 40hp eldritch shield, wizard might not seem broken after all. Eldritch shield also prevents warlocks from healing off of you and people are up in arms about warlocks healing themselves too much in pvp.

It's as if people want the devs to remove all the classes from the game but one just so they won't end up in a unfavourable match up.

[loud river]

Warlock shield is useless post nerf...it wasn't even strong to begin with

[stuck perch]

Exactly, and it was is really expensive spell capacity wise to bring in.

The damage buff from it could be seen to be a bit much if you want to keep that at 20%, maybe increase the time to use said buff so we're not limited to a super short window and that's fine.

[loud river]

Remove the damage buff, not needed...just put it back to 40hp spell shield and be done with it

40hp magic shield, make it 15 or 20hp cost and done

[stuck perch]

Oh no but wizards. Yeah wizards could melt through your shield with 4 magic missiles and you're taking over 85% of that 4th missile assuming you don't get hit in the head and the wizard is base kit naked AND also happens to forget his perks AND uses a implement that doesn't have +magic damage.

[loud river]

All classes have counters....wizards holding hallway with fireball/ice bolt/chain lightning is why you'd cast eldrich on your front line

[stuck perch]

I don't think it should cost a whole lot, taking the time to use the spell is pointless if it doesn't soak drastically more than it costs.

[loud river]

Nah if you can coat the whole team in 40hp shields for basically free...it should cost decent health

[stuck perch]

For a base duration of 15secs meh. Maybe keep it at 40hp/5 cost and gather more data on it. Damage buff can be reduced to 20% as it's a nice flavour thing or removed entirely if people are that squeamish.

[loud river]

40 for 5 is too strong imo

[stuck perch]

Even then I'd want to add something like 50% scaling to it so it matters a bit more at high tier. But the base effect matters.

[stuck perch]

It's not just the health cost it's the spell capacity cost and the opportunity cost of using it in battle over other possible options.

Besides the only class it really counters is wizards because clerics and warlocks can also smack your target with physical damage if need be.

And wizards can melt that right off with magic missiles or even 75 dam fireballs.

[stuck perch]

The spell capacity cost is over half your base spell capacity. How do you justify that?

You're not a wizard who can take 5 spells of his choice without issues.

[urban schooner]

I propose : Flickable gold that deals one dmg. That is all

[stuck perch]

Oh and the cleric's protection shield lasts for 20s instead of our 15s, to add insult to injury.

[glacial sphinx]

this is wildly incorrect, eldritch shield was insanely overpowered, and is still very strong against casters

[fossil prawn]

NERF BUFFBALL PLEASE

[stuck perch]

How and why? What about spell casters being overpowered one-shotting people?

[glacial sphinx]

it was a 100% free win against any wizard or cleric running eldritch. you're essentially immune to damage and you heal back the cost. Unlike protection it has no limited charges and does twice as much against them as protection does against physical. And thats vs caster damage which is finite charges whereas physical is infinite. Vs other locks you turned fights endless at range, the damage buff lets you two shot with hitscan or much faster projectiles than wizard has

[stuck perch]

I'm dealing 58+19 damage with a fireball as a base kit wizard on a dummy. Explain how soaking 40 of that with a warlock is broken OH and wizard gets scaling on his fireball, you don't get scaling on your eldritch shield. And that's just fireball, magic missiles it's 25 damage per hit again with base wizard. How many of those do you think Eldritch shield should be able to soak?

[stuck perch]

They can't, no matter what they nerf it won't impact buff ball enough without killing the individual classes. What you want are options to counter the buff ball.

[urban schooner]

A spell to Dispel enemy Buffs would fix it

[abstract swallow]

ES was pretty busted, easily one of the most expoitable and overloaded class features since Rage

[stuck perch]

Dispelling mechanics are a great counter to buff balls.

[urban schooner]

we sadly have none

i was also kinda hoping with druid we'd get a significant root or something, but thats a long way down the road

[stuck perch]

Explain. And keep in mind Warlock's healing was nerfed so don't conflate the problem with the shield with the problem with his healing.

[stuck perch]

You have 1 dispel already in the game, people just don't use it. Cleanse clears both buffs and debuffs from your target. It's not the best spell vs buff balls unless you can hit with it though.

[urban schooner]

It didnt work last time i tried it but maybe i just didnt hit then

[stuck perch]

There's a short range on it. It's not ideal.

[urban schooner]

Worth knowing, seems war cleric is back on the menu

[glacial sphinx]

if you're getting hit by magic missiles in PVP you have bigger problems. If you get hit by fireball point blank you realistically fked up, but despite that Eldritch absorbed ~80% of one. You also don't do the same damage on a lock as you do on a dummy with -10% magic resistance. If you ever lost to a wizard as a pre nerf warlock with eldritch shield you were skill gapped hard. A lock that had preshielded dots a wizard kills him on his next cast if eldritch shield was broken. Meanwhile he's topped from dotting his hydra and can refresh eldritch shield

[stuck perch]

They might patch it one day since it doesn't seem like it's the intent but it better stick around until we get proper dispel mechanics.

[stuck perch]

What about the rest of the wizard's party? Can they not shut the warlock down? If Warlock can constantly top himself with his hydra is that not a bigger problem that's overflowing into other aspects of the class?

[glacial sphinx]

yeah it was which is why i always supported a 25% ABR on torture mastery and thats exactly what they did

but its not enough to fix eldritch shield granting the target immunity to magic damage, erasing fighters weakness and making barb a joke. Protection is widely used at 20, yet Eldritch was better, with less cost AND gave you a huge damage buff. It was broken

[abstract swallow]

even ignoring the 'generacy, it was just way too much for way too little
a 5 HP 0.7s cast that gave an 800% return on investment, that if triggered let you throw out a disgusting amount of burst damage

[stuck perch]

There's a bit of scaling with MR left out indeed, but where should we set the MR for the math? Should we just assume the wizard can't hit with his spells? Eldritch shield a tier 5 spell is better than a tier 1 cleric spell that has much more versatility and a longer duration. Explain how that wouldn't make sense?

[glacial sphinx]

how is it more versatile? Cause theres more physical damage dealers? how does that make it fine against magic users? If there was a spammable spell absorbing 40 physical damage that buffed a clerics holy strike damage by 40% after breaking it the entire community would riot

[stuck perch]

It's more versatile because you come across more physical damage sources in the dungeon than magical damage sources. Even if you take out pve uses, only 3 out of 8 classes deal sizable magic damage, and 2 of those can deal physical damage quite well. And the last one can just melt your shield by overwhelming it if he hits it with often a single spell.

If you say +40% damage buff on breaking is too powerful, alright I'll cede that, reduce it to 20% and extend the window in which I can use the buff which only applies to a single spell and is also consumed to no effect by another cast of eldritch shield btw.

[tawdry sail]

please provide a better way to report toxic players. for real its 2023 this is not hard

the amount of absolute jerks i play with from this discord is crazy

[stuck perch]

If you're concerned about ES taking out fighter's downside, where's the concern that Haste takes out Barb's downside, or bard's tranquility takes out Warlock's downside? Classes are built with synergy in mind and that's a good thing. You can't have more than 3 players in a party so it's not like you can stack everything from every class on to a single guy.

[stuck perch]

They said they were working on some of that.

[tawdry sail]

game would be great if it didnt promote toxic behavior

[glacial sphinx]

I have concerns about Barb receiving haste+invis and those issues are well known. They're not an excuse to introduce new ones. ES is in a good place now though, its good but not broken anymore. I think Wiz should get a targeted dispel magic to counter buff stacking and other classes should have options as well, but you cant counter infinitely spammable shields with spell count spells or skills with a CD efficiently

[stuck perch]

There's the karma system for that. Reporting players is for cheaters.

[tawdry sail]

karma is not even remotely good enough

i just wasted an entire match rezzing a wizard that killed himself immediately after rezzing and talked shit

[stuck perch]

How is it good? How much MR do I need to be able to soak a fireball or half the wizard's magic missiles? How about zaps that otherwise just one shot me? It's a freaking tier 5 spells and right now it's questionable if it should even merit tier 2

[tawdry sail]

cool i can give him a red name. awesome. not good enough. people flex their red names. actually make it mean something. 1000000000% tax on trades/merchants if you have a red name. something

actually provide a punishment for acting like a child. its not hard. every modern game does this. why do i need to extract 5 times to report a bad player and it means nothing

[stuck perch]

Then it's up to you to not play with people with red names. If you meet someone and we tell you he's toxic, why are you surprise that he's toxic to play with?

[tawdry sail]

my man tell me you dont group with anyone form this discord without telling me you dont group with anyone from this discord

[stuck perch]

You counter ES with physical damage or you just overwhelm it with magical damage, or if dispel magic is available you could also use that to create a window in which to punish the warlock. And it's not infinitely spamable if you've got some way of preventing or reducing his healing.

Do you enjoy getting one shotted by a wizard with zap?

[proud sigil]

wizard kills buffball

[stuck perch]

Wizard are really strong and deal a lot of magic damage. You don't see me crying to get their damage nerfed down so they need to spend their entire stock of spells to kill a single player. Having an Eldritch shield as a counter was great against wizards and other warlocks. Now get this, I can take a a tier 5 spell, which is over half my base spell capacity to soak a whole 15 damage because the base cost of the shield is 10. Oh wait I can get a bit of magic resist. No wait wizard have 100% scaling on zap and most other spells so I'm not going anywhere without full dedication to MR gear instead of gear with normal warlock stats and apparently magic pen and true damage is in season so even that's not going to do much.

That's not to mention all the counters warlocks already have like multiple classes being able to silence me, wizards just going invisible, hasted barbarians to only name a few.

25 points of shield is not worth the spell capacity to bring it in not to mention the cost of 10, making that tier 5 spell save me an grand total of up to 15 health every cast.

[coral cypress]

what exactly does physical power do opposed to str or weapon dmg? can someone give me a dummy break down?

[upper sonnet]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/172asl8/heres_a_post_for_everyone_to_agree_on_itemization/ Someone is finally saying the quiet part outloud. The reason gear sucks when you nerf the OP stats is because there's literaly nothing else worth taking lmao

[formal swift]

Wizards are really strong, but the spell number seems a bit too annoying. There is barely any point to running intense focus because you wont have spells for the majority of the game or you dont want to use them. I suggest they replace the spell number with a rechargable mana bar that slowly recharges and meditation makes it recharge faster.

[tawdry sail]

figure out what kind of game you want this to be. ill wait a couple patches. clealy needs more time in the oven

[fervent tundra]

honestly, crafting just isn't fun. they need to give crafting materials their own inventory tab, and increase the drop rates of crafting items by like, 2x or more
grinding for materials just isn't fun
and to buy the materials takes more gold than i can reasonably store.

[stuck perch]

Apparently knowledge affects how much spell points you get back when you rest. If you have enough of it or you're with a bard that still uses clarity you can run something other than meditation. Maybe even 10spell wizard.

[nova drift]

what do you guys think about a much lighter version of the <level 15 and above level 15 lobbies?

for instance, instead of that, if you were under level 10 you had a 70 percent chance to pair with a game with other people all level 10 or under, and 30 percent chance you just go to a random normal lobby anyways.

[main gale]

10 spell is the meta for high gear wizard

[stuck perch]

Could be, I wish wizard had more spells to choose from though.

[nova drift]

why cant they just recolor and slightly rework some of thes spells and have like, dark fireball, or ice bolt supercharged

[tight fox]

I wish there was like things in the dungeon you could use to say empower stuff for crafting, i threw this out in the ether a while ago about maybe having a shrine that you can use to enhance gems to be usable in crafting trinkets or something of that nature but I doubt it'll happen

[upbeat yacht]

Reroll just feels bad.. Killed our groups interest 😦

[spring hound]

nerf barbs scream bro. they should not beable to catch up to a fucking rogue

[sacred canyon]

Does anyone at Ironmace notice that the Armet clips strangely with the Regal Gambeson? That being the collar of the gambeson comes through the neck plating of the armet

[upbeat yacht]

I've been fine with what ever changes they've made, but rolling back servers cost me and my friends soo much loot that it killed their interest completlely. we could finally have some gear and have fun and now lost it all. Guess we wait till next wipe 😦

[fossil lotus]

Please change the spider room spawns on GC, they are so bad if you arent geared

[hard perch]

The Balancing of Dark and Darker can be made better By changing What can roll on items for example the +magic dam, +magic healing or + %phy dam reduction rolls made it very hard to balance and now the game needs all these hidden stats tables to make it work . is it not better to just have stat rolls (+1 will)not the other rolls as they seem to just get in the way(1% dam reduction).
With this all the skills and perks can be leveled off making more build types available. The down side is all gear will be good no more trash gear from bad rolls making the market place not as needed. So a way to fix that is to make a 10% chance on a roll for it to give 2 stats points not just 1. Also make +1 to all stats need and take 2 rolls.
One more way is to add enchants like fulgors thunderbolt. Let’s say it needs and takes 3 rolls to get an Enchant + there are a lot of different Enchants some bad some good some weird. Enchantments should be gear dependent so no thunderbolt on armor. Maybe have +1 to magic dam, +1magic healing or %phy dam reduction as an Enchantment.
If there is still need for +1 to magic dam, +1magic healing or %phy dam reduction in gear make it a part of the white text. example occultist gear gives +1 magic healing so a max of +3 magic healing is possible no more.(unless got an Enchantment with it).

[ionic bobcat]

mag resistance ADD needs to be on the trade filter

along with will add, strength add, etc.. we dont want to see implicit rolls, we want to see the random rolls

[stuck perch]

That would be really cheap but could act as good place holders until they find some better assets to replace them.

[small furnace]

Trade chat feels awful. I don't know if anyone noticed but the majority of users are now using chatbots that clog up the chat and they probably have some kind of script that auto trades people the second something comes up for certain high value items such as golden keys cause I can NEVER click it.

Something really needs to be done about this horrid system.

[quaint basin]

suggestion: Buff monster loot and nerf chest loot

[hot hemlock]

Monsters are way more farmable than chests, at least the monsters are hindering the looting of chests whereas chests being useless would just force teams to speedrun pve for infinite loot

[smoky dust]

Ranger very unfun to play against dont mind people kiting me out but watching them eat biscuits as they go is a bit much either nerf their str or speed but they are too fast and strong for a guy who can use 3x shot ect and get bursts of hp

[stuck perch]

I'd rather they buff other classes to the point where they can rival the stronger classes rather than just nerf the fun out of everthing until everything is bland as f*ck.

[smoky dust]

that dont seem to be the trend friend

on top of that what a class can do in a game like this is relative to what other classes can do its quiet if people are complaining about class vs pve

the pvp element is where 1 class can feel bland because of what another class can do as its a head to head game

[stuck perch]

I know. Terrence the Ironmace CEO said once in an interview that they felt like fun was more important than balancing everything perfectly, yes some balance is important but not at the cost of fun. They apparently have changed their minds because they've done numerous balancing passes on the game where they just take the easiest solution and nerf the numbers on everything, sometimes repeatedly as opposed to trying keep that class fun and finding elegant ways of nerfing what needs to be nerfed without impacting the inherent fun of a class.

[small furnace]

What's the point of a gold coin bag (costs 5000 gold and stores 500g of value) when gold bars exists (cost 600g-700g and store exactly that much in value taking up the same space)?

[indigo burrow]

So, not sure what happened, but after the patch today, logged in and lost almost all my loot. Played a lot yesterday and lost it all and a few of other characters lost almost all my gold and most items as well..happen to anyone else?

[abstract swallow]

bragging rights

[cobalt root]

How much do the even rarer gold chests sell for then? Like 20k?

[echo wharf]

geared rogues are still landmines, it needs to be fixed

[whole whale]

i played with several new players recently, and every person hated the experience of the massive power difference between new/existing characters. i believe the only way to tame it is by both removing the leveling system entirely and implementing a sort of "gear score" matchmaking system.

without either of them, you either fight people who simply have more power than you passively, or you fight smurfs who are very difficult to outplay, making for a terrible new player experience

[stuck perch]

Before you even get to pvp you have to pve and clear some of the dungeon only after doing that a for a few minutes do you really get a chance at pvp. If your class is boring to play spicing it up with pvp isn't going to do much. Adding hotsauce to a shit sandwich isn't going to make it not a shit sandwich.

[limpid verge]

make gear rating so those with similar gear ratings get grouped together

[stuck perch]

That's what people call Gear based match making, or GBMM it gets talked about on here all the time and it's not a good idea for multiple reasons.
For one it's exploitable, it would also drastically increase the amount of time it takes to queue matches, we're talking several minutes if not more. It would also take away the possibility of punch up which some people really like. So far the devs side with it's not a good idea. But they've shown that when ever they say they won't do something they end up doing it anyways. I can't wait for them to start doing P2W as that would be the death of the game.

[neat hearth]

I must say loot is p good still

[stuck perch]

I couldn't care less about the current loot.

[whole whale]

I think match times are the only real argument, and even that is tuneable. Saying it is "exploitable" is a bit of a cop out when we have nothing preventing smurfing as-is. It would be a net positive in that area no matter what.

[stuck perch]

The exploitable part would be kinda smurfing but it wouldn't require you to restart your character at level 1. You could farm lowbies until you have enough gear then try a round or two of HR or higher brackets and go back to farming lowbies.

You also encounter the problem of players being afraid to use the loot they find because it could push them into the next bracket where they'll have to compete with the top of that bracket as the lowest in the bracket.

[whole whale]

Despite being problems, those are still better than the current state. The bracket thing can be (mostly) addressed by just playing with how the system works. It could be by total item score, it could be based on the best item, could be based on tiers. There is a lot of nuance there, and we have no such balance in that area right now.

It isn't analogous to eft either, since better gear drastically reduces the lethality that a new player has, so it is substantially harder to punch up, especially in 3s.

[stuck perch]

It's preferable to squish the gear so that it's feasible to defeat a better geared opponent or just provide a different map with a high cost for coming back.

[whole whale]

What do you mean by "squish"? Reduce the stat differences between gear levels?

[stuck perch]

Pretty much. It's kinda what they were trying lately. But they were also nerfing everything that sticks out the easiest way possible. The result is the game is getting bland and boring. If I found a set of legendary gear with perfect stats for me I wouldn't care because I'm not enjoying the base game anymore.

[whole whale]

I think it is okay to have power spikes. It is what makes the gear/trading/looting interesting. But it just needs to be more difficult for someone to use it to roll new players

[stuck perch]

Some of it is skill. The game is hard enough to understand the basics for new players. Even if an experienced player in base kit burst into their room he'd likely kill them all. Add gear advantage to that and it can feel oppressive.

[fervent tundra]

100% agree, for every buff they give a class, they nerf 5 others. at the same time, monsters keep getting stronger or stay the same. eventually, you're gonna have super weak players, and new players are gonna die 50 times in a row from how weak they are compared to mobs

[stuck perch]

The nerfs aren't elegant either so it makes for shit balance.

[fervent tundra]

i know one thing i'd love is faster wiz projectiles and cast speed, even if they reduce damage a lot. atm wiz just feels too slow, just isn't super fun to play. i used to be a wiz main, moved to barb since wi just wasn't fun anymore. I'm concerned eventually non of the classes will be fun anymore, after they are all nerfed into the dirt

[whole whale]

Sure, I'm not looking for skill gap compression. Rather, I want there to be enough room to actually express smaller differences in skill, which the gear/level differences currently prevent

[stuck perch]

I don't agree for the level differences. Sure the perks are there but classes typically have one "must have perk" and the rest are good to have.

Besides you can level pretty fast by just doing pve and smashing/looting. Doesn't matter if you die you'll eventually level.
Unlike extracting, no one can prevent you from doing that.

I'm also not too sure that I necessarily want to worship the idea of skill expression. I've heard the expression thrown around and I typically shrug.

[stark cosmos]

i would like to suggest making keys untradeable

[stuck perch]

Why?

[stark cosmos]

so that they are incetivised to actually be used

[stuck perch]

Who says they're not being used?
Honestly I'd see them more often used if spawning wasn't so random. Bringing a key to then end up in a bad spawn far away from the key room? Meh

[dire granite]

key room in middle of coliseum, no?

[stuck perch]

And if you don't spawn in the coliseum?

[dire granite]

I mean it from same distance from any side of map, it in the middle of the map.

[stark cosmos]

when they sell for 5k gold, no i dont think they are being used

[twilit crystal]

Is it even theoretically possible to get 5k worth of loot from a key? Lmfao

[stuck perch]

It's a gold sink, they're necessary.

[twilit crystal]

Like all 3 people would need to walk out with 1750 in loot lol

[dire granite]

there could be legendary pieces in piles

[small furnace]

idk if the reason they added goldbags was so people would stop using keys at money stores but if that was the case it definitely didn't work. Chest should be a bragging rights item, make goldbags affordable.

[opaque nacelle]

Triple jump for rogue, change my mind

[abstract swallow]

gold bags will 100% be a quest reward tbh, so I don't mind them being straight worse than their peer

[crystal veldt]

Why is it important that they are being used

[stark cosmos]

Because fights over key rooms would be very fun and add to the game rather than being relegated to a coin purse

[runic musk]

what are you on about lmao, just get knowledge agi and the two perks its silly how fast wizard is just with a set of grays and greens

[runic musk]

problem is market manipulation, troll hides get snagged instantly and are marked up same as with keys

[small furnace]

People definitely have bots. I can see chatbots going all the time for trades. Kinda sucks, wish IM would do something about it.

[silver sail]

Mage "Mana" need to be passive thing not a sit for 10m to regen spells, like every 5s regen 1/5 of a spell and get item status related like get +1 - +5 mana per second or ever 5s. + pls add health regen in some sort of way to play mage solo.

[runic musk]

maybe some temporary item caps?

[runic musk]

mage is playable solo just dont spam your stuff, go instacast chain lightning ez pz

[small furnace]

Idk would rather we just ban the people using obvious bots to gain an advantage.

No bro, I don't believe that you just sat there for 8 hours posting the same message every 10 exact seconds. Those people should be banned 100%

[silver sail]

this is not what i giving feedback, mage is strong and capable. But is not FUN to siting for 10m while you play any other class and is just going foward looting more rooms.

[runic musk]

you dont need to sit down though if you just relax and dont waste your shit in the first room, you have a crossbow for ranged kills and a melee weapon

[shadow fiber]

that normal gc map that is like the high roller one is so dog shit

[torn goblet]

be able to hold shift right click in stash to unequip the shitty starting gear like you can in game or maybe even an option like a checkbox to just stop giving me the shitty starting clothes so im not slow

[nova drift]

put ruins back to 3 man lobbies, just expand it a tiny bit in some smaller areas to account for how many people are on the map. make ruins the main map and add ruins highroller

[torn goblet]

not everyone wants to fork out 50g to bring in a crossbow and bolts to die to the shitty game mechanics like hitting the wall with your cast

[woven jolt]

bring back sub level 15 matchmaking

[runic musk]

you gain like 300 gold per gc now so why not bring items, opening one lionshead or 3 big chests is enough dor one basic kit

[woven oak]

look if I pick wizard im there to use my staff or my spells. im there to cast fire bolt, not crossbow bolt, nor do I understand why the scrawny wizard is able to use crossbows in the first place.

you completely missed the point. if you have to use crossbows as a wizard theres a problem in the design

[torn goblet]

am i supposed to memorize every spike location in the dark, in the middle of a fight? when they're randomized?? really

[granite plinth]

yes

[torn goblet]

ah so the game is shit i see, i figured

i'd rather and will play minecraft instead atp thank you

[strong grotto]

Not really. If you look at the map you will see the markings of traps, like few triangles from the both sides of the passage. Those are spikes. But, mostly, you will remember if not ALL of the traps, then at least will memorize a common placements. Map knowledge is a must have here.

[strong grotto]

Ah... There is the catch. The game is literally pay-2-win. The more gold you are able to accumulate - the better equipment and consumables you are to take and the more your chances of escaping. I dislike this more than you are able to realize, though, this is generally how it goes. The bigger your bank - the safer you are.

[vernal hedge]

that's not what pay to win is lol, p2w is using real world currency in exchange for an advantage ingame, not spending the gold you gain playing the game for better gear

[torn goblet]

thats what i dont like, it feels like you have to get in early or just get rolled until you can rat enough stuff out for health pots and gear

i mean i know its a skill issue as well but the game doesnt make it any easier lol

[strong grotto]

Are we try and pretend it isn't an issue here? Besides, it doesn't matter where exactly you were able to get that gold. It is matters that with the fighting system we have in the game RIGHT NOW it is a simple stat checking. And the more expensive and better gear you have - the better are your stats. In fact, if they don't turn the rarity and quality of gear found in the regular modes to 11 (or at least get rid of gray and white drops in the map, which is stupid AF to begin with) the game will suffer for the people unable to get the gear, when they are constantly killed by those who did already.
TLDR - if the gear gap is unsolvable, then you should increase the drop of the gear so much, that it isn't an issue to gear up even without gold.

[torn goblet]

i agree, trash quality loot should just be removed since no one grabs them anyway

[strong grotto]

Yup. It is only creates even more frustration with the game. And that is what any sane developer should avoid. Well, SANE that is. And I am not so sure with the latest developments that it is applied to the IMace...

[vernal hedge]

disagreed, last patch reigned in a lot of the imbalance, making it so jewerly and certain items bases dont have inherit stat buffs made it so I havent seen any 40str gamers which has a big role in making it possible to upset fights, gear isnt everything and you can take down people a lot more geared than you by playing it correctly and to your classes strenghts and most importantly, you oponents weakness
Are you saying that gear and loot should even be increased more than current?

[wind leaf]

Still waiting for the Patch where the game will become Fun and classes have more build diversity, aka buff/redo unused perks/skills. Most of the classes are very one dimensional.

[strong grotto]

You are still one-shotted by warlocks with BoC. Fights are still decided in one-two hits. Speed is still a deciding factor if you are even able to fight someone or is simply chased down or run around, while being showered with ranged attacks.
No depth of melee. No real way to ovoid anything, even blocking is bad since weapon are either clipped through or bugged to begin with (hello falchion). Thus we are still getting back to a simple check of stat:

• Are your HP is high enough to survive this burst or that?
• Are your damage is enough to kill anyone with 1-2 hits? Preferably in the head?
• Are your speed is higher, that your enemy's so you can kite him into infinity or even to DECIDE whether or not you to to fight each other?
  So, yes. Gear drops should be increased. Maybe that will prevent geared cape-chads to ruin normals. White and gray drops should be eliminated. That rarity of gear should be ONLY available through vendors, goblin included (as a F U moment from the RNGesus). And, yes, the game is still barebones. Though, I don't see any real meat on it growing even since so much of feedback from community. But do they even listen, when there is a literal one-shot fiesta across the servers, but devs saying, that TTK score is too high? DOUBT.

[bleak dagger]

can you stop crying now? Its 2 month in EA

[torn goblet]

you're the only one i see crying, so why don't you just keep your thoughts to yourself

[strong grotto]

Don't bother answering to that donkey. I don't even know what he wrote (or who he is, lol) since he is blocked by me, but that alone is enough evidence of absolute bull crap take. I'd recommend you to block some people here too.

[shadow gulch]

Random chiming in here

[strong grotto]

As I've said, it is something you'd expect from any sane developer, who doesn't want game being frustrating to players. And, as I've already said, I doubt that "sane" is applied towards IMace.

[shadow gulch]

Blocking people you don't agree with is how you get an echo chamber. And then your blindsided by reality 🙄

[strong grotto]

It is not about me blocking someone I am not agreed with. There are plenty of people who I am not agreeing on that topic or the other, Fr0sty The Fly Man as an example. That is why I've said if someone is blocked by me - he isn't worthy of any time or effort to be replied. Since it is not a simple disagreement, but pure idiocy from those.

[shadow gulch]

I pay a lot of attention to this chat room because believe it or not ironmace listens

More than any other developer. Only other comparable studio that listens to it's people is jagex.

There is a handful of good studios out there. Protect them at all costs

[hushed eagle]

they should remove gold from ruins and make it high roller only or make high roller ruins and place it there...

[strong grotto]

Press X to doubt. Their patches and latest statements show they aren't. Or at least they don't notice anything, that would require an actual work from them, other that simple tweaking of numbers and stats.
People ask for more depth of combat, for balance of the class perks, for removal of burst damage, for removal of slow from bows. NEITHER is implemented or talked about.
Of course, it is also a possibility that neither of those above is what they are wish for game to have, for it isn't in their vision of the game's future. Then I should say the game will struggle and, perhaps, even die. Since it isn't fun when you are getting one-shot in a game you can't just wait a bit and respawn in a match, you just lose ALL you had. No one also likes to get stat checked. And to be chased by someone you can't even wish to chase in return.
Three core problems that aren't solved and aren't even talked about by IMace:

• Movement speed is too important in the PvP to be played around.
• Gear acquisition is poor, since white and gray items are crap and only frustrate people when they open a chest.
• Burst damage is unhealthy and needs to be removed.

[cerulean kestrel]

Anyone find the gauranteed exit on ruins yet ?

[shadow gulch]

I counter your burst complaint with play style/gapping.

Slow/hydra/ice bolt/ranger slow/throwable ground effects/earth quake.

If your complaints are ranged burst... you have obstacles, reload time, limited spell casts, health cost per cast.

Gearing. In Several instances I have gone from 0 to high tier set in a day. And lots of other people have to, This is a subjective complaint

Movement speed with buff ball is a problem. But as it being a meta. Wizards with slow and clerics with earthquake would be a wild counter.

[terse pier]

This game needs some gear based matchmaking

[dry acorn]

Battlebit has a system where sniper scopes make a reflection, distinctively telling players "there is a sniper over there", they have one shot potential, but it is swayed by the fair fact that you KNOW they are there. DnD needs something like this with rangers, there should be some signal that they're potentially in a room, particularly true if they can take a skill where they can hear us twice as far as we can hear them

[strong grotto]

Nah, I am not so against ranged burst, since it is at least telegraphed and is avoidable in most cases.
I am against the burst in melee first and foremost and against longbows slowing people.

About gear - I've also have gone in a day from 0 to 100. So what? Are you going to tell me it is a fun feeling to open a chest surrounded by skeleton champion and 4 archers to have a cracked grey longsword in it? F THAT. If I'd wanted to gear up in whites and grays - I'd pay to vendor. Also, it isn't matter how fast you are able to gear up, when there are people who already geared, and who takes your breathing as their personal offense. We aren't starting equal in the map. So let me at least have a reasonable chance of getting some gear to face those who are above me.

Movement speed is not a problem with buff ball. It is a problem in general. There is no PvP game where movement speed isn't worked to be equal among all players or at least be close to be equal. Why? Because it is the greatest advantage one can have in PvP. If you are faster than your enemy - it is YOU now to decide whether or not you both to fight and where. Especially when ranged attack is an option.

[real trellis]

It's only a gear check when dealing with classes that just facemash eachother like fighter and barb. Some classes can be killed despite gear diff, for example I snuck up behind a purple rogue as a gray rogue with a white shortsword and my buddy distracted him while I got like 3 hits in. He turned around and hit me once but by then I hit him two more times and he was down.

[strong grotto]

I'd say it is not even about rangers telegraphing their shots. It is about removing the possibility of someone getting one-shot at all. Some delayed damage perhaps? Like the bleed out timer? Might work.

[strong grotto]

So you say I am wrong, but then telling I am right. If there wasn't your buddy - you would've been stat checked as well by that purple.

[shadow gulch]

Are you saying the guy in purples didn't deserve an advantage. What kinda Commy crap is that.

People deserve the opportunity to try. They don't get equality of outcome

[whole whale]

Then it isn't really clear to me what you do want. Perks definitely provide tangible advantages, and you shouldn't have to play a few dozen throwaway runs just to level the playing field.

You said part of keeping the current system would be "punch up", which is skill expression, but say it isn't something you care about in this response. It is clear the current game has problems beyond inter-class balance, and they need to be addressed or it will bleed new players.

[strong grotto]

1. Do not mess politics in here. It is a GAME, not a real life. I have enough of inequality IRL for it to be trickled down in game as well.
2. He deserve and advantage. Sure. But not the disadvantage in the kind of numbers we have right now, when the same piece of armor of the white tier is doubled in value or armor when it is purple with ADDITIONAL value of enchantments on top. This is not even a simple advantage we are talking about. It is like shooting fish in the barrel.
3. You said it yourself. People deserve the opportunity to try. Yet they don't have that opportunity. Since the gear gap is that much high and your options of avoiding and inflicting damage is so low in numbers, that it all trickles down to... You guessed it! STAT. CHECK.

[shadow gulch]

You can always be outplayed. Maybe you haven't had the opportunity to see this in action. But I know plenty people who lose their gear, I'm talking hyperbis complete wrecking ball to outplays from normie's in normie gear

[real trellis]

Maybe. His buddy, also in purples, could have come killed me while I was killing the guy, but they didn't communicate properly so I managed to get away from the second guy

[strong grotto]

It already does bleed new players. Which is only adding a problems since the game isn't on Steam and is that much different to find. That being said, perhaps it is even better that way, because with how many bad choices developers made it would've been, most likely, a mixed review score. And that isn't a good either, even considering the Early Access state.
And yes, there should be much more ways for expressing your game's skill. There should be more ways to inflict and avoid damage. Parries, some kind of dodge (perhaps an ALT key or any other button with recharge that is based on your agility score?), weapon on weapon collision, archery and etc.
Btw, here's my suggestion to it, upvote if you like: https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/493924/melee-and-ranged-battle-system-improvement

[woven oak]

brain worm go sqiggle sqiggle

[shadow gulch]

One fix I think should be implemented. At least for the sake of maintaining a large player base. Is a PVE mode?

Something to build for new players. Those characters don't get transferred over into PvP

[strong grotto]

Nah, not really. This game is really in the state right now, when the outcome is decided in first few seconds on the engagement. What you position is? What your attack and defensive stats are? Are you dead after first blow? Are you able to run faster than the dude you don't want to face? The last one is, actually, the most important, because, as I've said already, the movement speed isn't something you want to play around in the PvP game.

[shadow gulch]

Get new players involved and hooked by starting in a PVE zone/server. And they have the choice to start a pvp account.

Aside from rankings. Have some kind of personal tavern where you can flex stats. Have pve and pvp objectives. They can unlock shop perks or quests

[shadow gulch]

I wholeheartedly disagree on this. And I don't see us coming to the middle ground

[strong grotto]

Have it your way. We agree to disagree then.

[woven oak]

I find they often condradict themselves its really amusing tbh, the game isn't balanced. its not meant to be. and never will be. these games are always mental sleight of hand. you play games by wagering the scales. if you play all in on a scale thats not in ur favour. you're bad.

[strong grotto]

That's the problem. It is supposed to be a game, not the the IRL challenge of who gets the rich parents and who doesn't. Even rats, when play with each other, try to lose to their younger siblings in play fights at least 30% of times, because if they not - the younger siblings will simply refuse to play anymore. Do you think people are more stupid than rats are? Some sure are, but I hope they don't play this video game, lol.
Jokes aside, the game is a game. It is a sport and recreation. And sport is meant to be equalized among the competitors in some way or the other. Weight class, leagues and so on. And I will die on the hill, that move speed should be equal among all classes, that there needed more options of inflicting and avoiding damage, that there should be no one-shots allowed or even possible.

[woven oak]

The fuck does rich parents have to do with it. the game doesnt have pay to win unless you're doing bannable trading

[lone crescent]

Buff Troll Pelt and Mystical Gem drop rates, the drop are so bad that killing the boss is not even worthy and it makes you feel like you are wasting your time
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500242/buff-troll-pelt-and-mystical-gem-drop-rate

[strong grotto]

Ever heard about allegory? When one starts the map in all purples and other is in his defaults it is like someone having his life bought with parents' money, while other needs to crawl his way to exit while competing those who are above him since the first second.

[woven oak]

yeah and how did they get the purple

[dry acorn]

cheers for the response, thinking on it I agree that the one shots are more so the issue - I simply don't mind if one shots are in the game, as long as I have a chance to dodge them - the bleed idea is good though!
what about an option for some classes to press a button to deflect the arrow with their blade? a time window is associated for how long a player could ready the deflection animation, resourcefulness could reduce the internal cd of performing arrow deflection. Fun ideas

[strong grotto]

By accumulating wealth in the previous run. Which is the same as accumulated wealth from the previous generation. This game IS P2W, no matter how exactly you got your gold. More gold you have - the more succesfull you are. And the more it is easy for you to stomp on those, who aren't able to put as much of value in their equipment as you are.

[woven oak]

So ur upset at the snowball affect

[daring trail]

The game is pay to win this guy says 😁🤣🤣

Some of your takes are more and more out there every day. Let me guess, because you spend time playing this game instead of working, it's pay to win? 🤣🤣

I still think damage stats on armor should be toned down, because I agree that 1 shot meta ruins the game.

Honestly with slight adjustments to damage stats I think we're in a good spot.

[strong grotto]

That's one name for it. Sure. The problem is, as I've said before, that the snowball in this game makes you virtually impossible to be deal with, because of how shallow the fighting system is in the game. Thus it is a stat check that is only gets worse with the gear gap.

[woven oak]

Literally the game is intentionally unbalanced asymmetrical live action economy. any game with this system is hard to balance because its not meant to be.
best we can do is make the variable factors have better ratios so the regularity of the snowball ending occurs more often instead of it being perpetual

[strong grotto]

Prove me wrong then. You start with 1000 gold in your stash, other player starts with 100. Equal classes and perks. Who will have better chances? More gold -> more stats -> more damage inflicted -> more damage mitigated -> more healing taken -> more extractions. Is it easy enough to follow?

[strong grotto]

That is why I am telling about equalizing movement speed at least.

[woven oak]

Movement is always the strongest stat because it gives more action economy. then you base the scales off that.
but you have to understand. the ranger will abuse action economy with skill to kill melee. if the ranger fails to do so. the melee deserves the win. the combat system isn't the problem.

[dry acorn]

Can we please add an item that goes on the back, that is essentially a giant bell that rings each time you take a step, it provides no stats

[daring trail]

I've never bought gold, I realize some people do, but it is not an intended thing the devs implemented.

It's just wrong to say "pay to win" lol

Like we're on the same page aside from that.
Because I agree one shot meta is dumb. Too much damage stats on armor. You just have +20 wep damage/+3str builds running around normal lobbies and one shoting.

[woven oak]

League of legends is the most successful model of this game design. and it is perpetually being balanced and unbalanced to create interest and destroy contention in the game

[woven oak]

Yes but thats a stat check vs skill check. which takes a long time to balance because stats are linear and static. skill is not. and its hard to balance something static around a subjective curve. ofc the stats need balanced but its tiring hearing
"Ranger op, no barb op! skill issue ez. gear op! combat is shallow!" when there hasnt been real thought behind their arguments.
if you get oneshot as a whites by a full purple by a headshot. that sucks but should be expected. as a blue? yeah that needs stat balancing but alot of complaints are just venting tbh

[stuck perch]

It's a shout out to old school games where wizards didn't have a lot of spells so they relied on crossbows as an alternate weapon. Also if you choose to not take meditate it's a valid option for pve so you don't have to waste spells that you could save for pvp.

[woven oak]

Interesting callback. just don't think telling people they should rely on crossbow for wanting to use spells is the right path. id rather see it replaced with cantrips as a rightclick on staffs

[granite plinth]

make some gear limit to normal dgs

[stuck perch]

@woven oak
But right click on staffs is already spellcasting... Also cantrips are a recent concept. Even when they first showed up in 3.5 they weren't unlimited either. But I get that you want to play a caster to use spells not fall back on mundane weapons. Meditate allows you to be less cheap with conserving your spells but some people want some of the other options so unless you're loaded with clarity pots and campfires or bring a bard you're going to be resting a lot if you don't take meditate.

[woven oak]

Mhm I get that its used for spells but id happily swap a spell i.e fire ball for a much weaker but readily more available spell. even if having to rest (similar to how zap regens faster than other spells)
in the scenario i didnt want to run meditate

[stuck perch]

Knowledge apparently makes you regen your spells faster, but if you want easy spells to recoup zap and icebolt are options

[woven oak]

yeah, personally im okay using melee, but for the people who want to clear rooms with spells its the best option rn. just hate rebuttals that ignore the issue in question

[runic musk]

legit just said there are other ways to play instad of wasting your stuff in one room

[worldly herald]

it would be good to separate the very equipped people from the not equipped people because we can't do anything when we come across them and we can't equip ourselves either

[daring trail]

This is an example of gear based match making, which I don't really like the idea of.

But with how the random modifiers are rolling once again, I almost wouldn't mind it at this point.

Just trying to farm gold for a kit and you have to run into purple+ God Stat kits in normals, it's super sad

[stuck perch]

If Wizard had more spell choice I'd likely be running 10 spells with a lot of utility but for the class with the most base knowledge and described as a versatile spellcaster it's weird that we have the least amount of spells available than all other classes. We also have like 1 soft CC/debuff spell? It's hard to play to the save or suck fantasy that wizards can do in TTRPGs.

[woven oak]

yeah look ur not wrong. but its redundant to tell people to buy an item (potions campfire crossbow) because theyre using spells and dont want to sit down for 10mins.
the spell recovery system for all classes feels bad and one of the major reasons people will go to games like GoG
The fact you can recover ur bolts or arrows within seconds but spells take minutes is painful. yes resource management is important but there comes a difference between resource management and anger management. people play wizard to be a wizard not to cosplay a ranger

[torn goblet]

zone is too fast in goblin caves man, i may just be shit

[woven oak]

I had that same experience with my first time as wizard "wheres the spells" warlock and cleric feels more caster than wizard and its a shame. yeah wizard is a powerhouse but it doesn't really feel as good to play. especially since the spell meta is stagnant fireball/chain zzz

[stuck perch]

I'd like to see more types of attack spells as well as some CC and debuff spells. Since they gave warlock some summons I think wizard should get some of his own, like a fire or water elemental. I'd make them the possession type and have them last a fair bit (at least 20s, maybe more).

[daring trail]

Wizards take meditate, over half your spells back inside 30 seconds.
If you run 10 spell then that means you have the gold for clarities/campfires.

Why do people say wizard doesn't have enough spells lol, you have fireball, MM, lightning strike, chain lightning, zap, ice bolt. 6 offensive spells, then 5 "support" spells.
A slow, a weapon ignite, haste, invisible, and a lightorb/stealth detector.

What is the problem lol

[stuck perch]

Because every other class has more spells and wizards are suposed to be super versatile with a long list of spell options.

[woven oak]

@stuck perch spot the guy who missed the point

[daring trail]

Warlock and cleric has 1 more spell lmfao

[wet mortar]

Warlock and cleric have better spells IMO. Holy strike is just stronger lightning strike, hydra is light orb that does damage and body blocks, only really fireball and chain are the wizard-exclusives, every other spell is done by a different class usually better. Don't get me wrong, wizard is still very strong and very fun, but the tuning is trash.

[woven oak]

Damn isnt wizard dominating with hydra and earthquake

[wet mortar]

I don't understand what you're getting at

[woven oak]

Satire, currently meta spells you'll hear about atm

wizard aint weak but its always the same old

[woven oak]

you summed it up pretty well here

[wet mortar]

Yea but they're complained about for a reason. in 3's earthquake is the most anti-fun spell created, if cleric has ranger/wizard/bard/warlock/fighter on their team they just auto win a fight if earthquake catches anyone.

Hydra gives warlocks a thunder-dome battle if they body block doors with it and a heal sponge.

Holy strike is just fucking busted, so much damage and utility with more charges than lightning strike. - This is in my opinion one of the top spells that needs giganerfing.

[woven oak]

yup cant disagree with any of that

[stuck perch]

Well they nerfed the counter it had. It made sense it being that strong because it warranted taking the counter. But they're just going to nerf everything. They really need a higher balance point.

[woven oak]

earthquake really should of been a wizard spell imo, cleric is abit over the place

[wet mortar]

100% big issue is they seem to balance spells & songs on an individual consideration rather than holistically. Invis isn't inherently problematic, but when you consider invis and haste together giving 125% ms and invis yea that's an issue.

[stuck perch]

It's a Cleric spell because it's one of the "divine" punishments that used to scare people in olden times. Same with locusts.

[woven oak]

Im aware just the underlying mechanics and balance of the game

[wet mortar]

Earthquake should not be a spell in its current form. We nerfed achilles because it had basically no counterplay if you were hit by it, earthquake is literally just a stronger AOE achilles with no cooldown lol.

[stuck perch]

It's only an issue because it has few if any counters. Adding viable counters to the game would make it more of a rock paper scissors thing and they would have a better field for balancing the whole.

[wet mortar]

The counter is barb... but even as a 70% MDR barb you're still screwed if you get quaked

[daring trail]

For sure, I think that's typically why no one runs lightning strike. Definitely not the greatest spell.

But we shouldn't act like every single spell each class has is "meta"

Cleric is for sure strong I don't deny that. Holy strike scales too much imo, they shouldn't have the same scaling a wizard had for example.

Hydra and light orbs are majorly different lol, like I somewhat see what you are trying to do there, but they are so wildly different.

MM is unique, the spell casted slow is unique, zap is also unique.

Then they can give other people invis and haste.

I just don't understand the whining about this topic. Wizard has 1 less spell overall from any other 'caster' but has the highest damage output.

Like yall are just upset wizard doesn't have 30 spells to choose from?

[woven oak]

look if a wizard casts earthquake its fine. dome them, free headshot. if a cleric casts it. theyve got full plate, holy aura bubble etc theyre fine

[stuck perch]

Achilles had counter play, they could have telegraphed it better but dodging is counter play, so is focusing on not moving and blocking/parrying. They could've added perks or skills that offered counter play to it too instead of just nerfing it. There's a difference between not having counterplay and not having enough counterplay.

[woven oak]

yes as the wizard the collector of knowledge and spells, the class locked to magic and staffs(im aware of crystal sword), compared to the full plate cleric or zweihander warlock. yeah i am upset. gimmi

and also deviated from the original point. regaining spells via resting feels bad

[wet mortar]

Hydra is literally just better light orb though... MM is unique, sorta... I mean hellfire fills the exact same roll as it just kinda better in most situations. Zap is kinda curse of pain but without healing.

Invis & Haste should onyl be self buffs

[woven oak]

or atleast aoe channels

[daring trail]

Hydra and light orb work wildy differently, with the only similarity being they can spot invisibility.

Hydra has a cast range, light orb can travel across the map until it hits something.
Light orb creates light in the room, Hydra does not lol.

Hydra blocks doorways , light orb does not

Zap is not curse of pain for the exact reason you just mentioned, it doesn't heal the wizard.

One magic missile to a mob walking toward you, kills it, while a single hellfire will not kill it. These are also wildly different as MM is 10 fast small bolts being fired, where as hellfire is 1 big fat slow moving high dps spell.

[wet mortar]

I think you're missing my point entirely. Hydra is just better light orb, Zap is just worse curse, MM & Hellfire are almost exchangeable except hellfire you have infinite of and it's way better for pve.

Like Hydra does 6 different things, light orb does 2. Also the biggest issue is that warlock has 0 cooldowns, even with nerfed mag heal it's still more spell uptime than wizard with more viability. Dark bolt is just ice bolt that's usable.

[runic musk]

players hate thinking

[daring trail]

The point you think you are making doesn't even exist tho lol

All of the spells you mentioned are not similar the way you say they are lol.

Zap literally does more damage than curse of pain. It just doesn't heal the wizard lol.

Perfect even more reason how hydra and light orb work differently, not only does hydra cost health but hydra does more overall. Not the same spell.

Hellfire is better inside of specific scenarios, MM better in others. Both wildly differently.

Healing on warlock was busted, but since the torture mastery nerf I haven't given warlock enough time to say weather the healing is still busted or not still.

Actually I haven't even seen a spell lock since the torture mastery nerf.. only melee locks

[narrow lotus]

Can we keep the theme of gold coin purses costing 10% of what they hold and do the same w bags and chests and maybe just have crafting them a free option?

[pallid patio]

PLEASE for the love of god Fighter needs more non-plate headwear... Leather caps are EXTREMELY rare and we really need a 2nd option

[wet mortar]

I think you're missing the point genuinely, you have the right to your opinion but disagree

[daring trail]

You have no point, thats the problem lol

[wet mortar]

Whatever you say man, idk what else to tell you to convince you my point is a point but you have the right to your opinion.

[daring trail]

you keep saying 'you missed the point', but have yet to actually mention a point at all.

all youve said is some warlock spells and wizard spells are similar.. oh and that you dislike having to re-gain spells on wizard

[wet mortar]

You have missed the point entirely.

Warlock and Cleric have spells that do the same thing as wizard spells but better. Warlocks also have the luxury of infinite healing and casts.

Hydra does the job of light orb better and with more functionality, only misses the light component which is a nice thing but not that important.
Curse of pain does the job of zap with more casts, similar overall damage, a DOT, and a heal function
Hellfire does the job of Magic Missile better than MM with infinite charges. it can wipe entire rooms of pve and bosses, wizard can't do much against bosses.
Bolt of Darkness flys faster, is easier to use, and does similar damage.
Phantomize is just haste & invis combined with basically immortality.

Holy Strike does similar damage to lightning strike, whilst blinding and slowing people.

[daring trail]

Word, so you dont have a point at all. I just gave you multiple examples of these spells that you say ' do the same thing '. they quite literally dont do the same thing

[wet mortar]

There's a pretty good list, you have the right to disagree but to say my point is nonexistent is just willful ignorance and being a keyboard warrior.

[shadow gulch]

@wet mortar warlock/mage main here. It is entirely different play styles. Ergo it's not the same.

You would know this if you tried fighting on a warlock and then fighting on a wizard.

[wet mortar]

I've played on both. Different playstyle sure, but warlock does most of what wizard does better.

[daring trail]

Hydra and light orb are similar, yes. those both detect invis.

That is where the similarity stops. Hydra can block door ways, Hydras can have spells used on them for healing purposes. Light orb can be cast across the map until it hits a surface, while hydra has a cast range.
Hydra does damage to pve/pvp. Light orb does not.
Curse of pain heals the warlock, zap does not heal the wizard.
Hellfire is very situational, but completely different from Magic Missle lol, like how you think these 2 are similar at all is mind boggling.

ok ok bolt of darkness/ice bolt is the same thing different skin, you got me there.

Phantomize isnt haste nor invis, and you TAKE MORE MAGIC DAMAGE when you use pantomize.

Holy strike is a little strong, but no one uses lightning strike anyway so you can compare it to that all day long if ya want. The only similarity between the 2 is they use circle indicators when you cast them lmfao

[shadow gulch]

Your going to pretend like wizards slow/ice bolt/haste/invisibility is something that exists in function in the warlock kit. AND it's better?

[pallid patio]

IMMEDIATE HOTFIX REQUIRED RE: PORTAL MECHANICS: If I open a portal and AM INSIDE THE FUCKING PORTAL, I should get 1 frame advantage over ANYONE ELSE to get into that port. Just 1 frame.

right now it seemse to be determined by random chance, server lag w/e

but i opened the fucking portal i'm inside the fucking portal, i haven't moved the portal SPAWNED INSIDE OF MY BODY. I should get the portal.

[wet mortar]

Like I said, warlock does most of what wizard does not all. I never said the entire kit of wiz is replaceable but most is. Anyhow, this isn't going anywhere we just disagree fundamentally and that's alright. farewell fellas.

[daring trail]

I'd recommend having a valid point next time

[shadow gulch]

Your identifying a very very very small place where the classes overlap. And claiming it's all the same

[wet mortar]

reddit mod

[daring trail]

like you are? i dont even have a reddit account

[shadow gulch]

Wizards provide a different team synergy than warlock. your point has been judged on its merits. It's just factually wrong

[wet mortar]

Not a very very very small place. more examples:

Cleric divine strike is ignite, Cleric holy strike is aoe slow with damage and blindness.

All of wizards spells except chain lightning and fireball are done better by cleric and warlock.

[daring trail]

I guess hes gonna compare Holy Purification to Magic Missles next. and call them the same

[shadow gulch]

I copy pasted your point. Your rebuttal. You said warlock does wizard better.

You admitted they are different play styles. And now we showed they are completely different abilities.

[fast lily]

Wizard is still one of the best solo classes in the game when it comes to 1v2 or even 1v3s. Warlock and Cleric can't hold a candle to Wizard in that regard. Invis/Haste alone is a massive difference maker but Wizard spells in general are just far better suited for PvP.

[wet mortar]

They are different playstyles. The abilities are different in ways but fill the same roles better. Just because a horse is painted brown doesn't make it any less a horse. Again, we just fundamentally disagree and that's ok.

[stuck perch]

Wizard's class fantasy IS to have 30 spells to choose from with many different types. Cleric damaging spells are fine, they're expensive with holy strike being the cheapest and they don't have a high regen rate for them. Once they're spent it takes campfires or forever to get them back even with a bard. Wizard doesn't need higher damaging spells he needs more spell options. Cone spells, CC spells, Debuff spells, Summoning spells. A big part of playing a wizard is bringing in a custom spell load tied to your playstyle.
Curse of pain requires a perk to heal the Warlock, with out the perk it's just a shitty zap.

@wet mortar
Hydra is a tier 6 spell, light orb is a tier 1 spell. It's normal that it's vastly better than light orb, Eldritch shield is a tier 4 spell it's normal that it's better than cleric's tier 1 protection spell.
Warlock has less down time than wizard but wizard can't kill himself for casting his spells (outside of hitting himself or chain lightning bouncing back). Wizard also casts his spells much faster than the warlock.
Phantomize does not make you invisible, and while it makes you immune to physical attacks you're more vulnerable to magical attacks.
Icebolt has that slow component (which honestly should be increased to 2s and maybe have a ice mastery perk to increase it further).
Dark bolt has numerous perks and ways to buff it's damage, Icebolt has a single damage increasing perk and that perk increases the damage of all spells.

[shadow gulch]

Well the warlock horse can't go invis, it can't cast haste
It can't slow enemies. I can't imagine how your missing this gap

[wet mortar]

Again... warlock AND cleric. Not just warlock I'm talking about here, I can't imagine how you've missed the fact this whole conversation was about three classes.

[stuck perch]

Warlock used to be able to shield allies against magic damage but that's been nerfed to a gimmick that you'd use on max MDR barbarians.

[shadow gulch]

Bruh you said WARLOCK DOES WIZARD BETTER

Why are you bringing up cleric

[shadow gulch]

I know 😭😭😭

[wet mortar]

maybe read my entire argument before claiming my point's invalid lol, not gonna restate I'm gaming goodbye.

[shadow gulch]

Is this not your point you single digit IQ wonder?

[wet mortar]

Alright, you're just trying to get a rise outta people peace.

[stuck perch]

Return Eldritch shield to 40 points of protection at a cost of 5 health and give Wizard a fire elemental possession summon. Everyone's happy?

[shadow gulch]

Because that's exactly how it reads. This isn't a cry baby place. Your ideas will be discussed if you don't like reading feed back I suggest not posting at all.

[fast lily]

Wizard spells are literally the best offensive spells in the game. Warlock has comparable numbers on their damage spells but lack the speed and output a Wizard can do. Combined with Haste Invis, it's not even close when it comes to an offensive PvP class. Cleric's damage spells are good, but again, not about damage output and instead about utility.

Wizard damage spells are incredible. Wizard is the burst class, Warlock is more efficient damage over time and Cleric is about CC/Utility. A blaster, a DoT class and CCer. You can't compare them lmao.

[stuck perch]

Enough with the low grade sophistry, if you don't agree withhold personal attacks.

[wet mortar]

Yea I just block people like that lol. The whole point I was making was my opinion and they fight it like their lives depend.

[daring trail]

IM has already mentioned Sorcerer as a future class, which will be the offensive based spell caster.

You can maybe expect more utility from a wizard, but when it comes to more offense, or summoning, itll prob be saved for sorc

[shadow gulch]

Pardon me if I don't want Iron mace listening to baffoons ruin our game

I paid money for the game too. Ideas deserve to be heard. Not to flourish, that's based on merit not feelings

[stuck perch]

In a public debate you're just going to let him respond to your points without being able to respond back. In the words of Aaron Eckhart from a movie, you goal isn't to convince that specific stubborn person but to convince the community.

[daring trail]

Its easier to convince people with facts rather than feelings tbh

[shadow gulch]

Hence the tags in my responses to the guy

[stuck perch]

The Wizard needs to be able to do a little bit of everything. With versatility being his main thing.

[wet mortar]

yea idc enough to do any of that, was all just me stating an opinion lol that's how the game feels to me not necessarily how it is

[daring trail]

for sure, and they can do everything currently. cept heal i guess

[stuck perch]

It's really hard to show facts for a game like this without hard data. And in game design how a class "feels" is important.

[daring trail]

No, its not hard to show how Hellfire and Magic missle are completely different

[stuck perch]

Yeah those two aren't super familiar. Magic missile has more in common with drain life and ray of darkness than Hellfire. (and no it's not the same as those two either).

[fast lily]

Ray of Darkness and Magic Missile are more comparable, but yeah.

[daring trail]

I realize there are some 'similarities'

But these classes spells are still totally different.

Lets take COP and Zap.
Yes, as the base. they are both upfront damage, with a DOT attached to the end.

They play completely different though, calling these spells the same is just wrong

[frosty agate]

Start Banning People who are teaming up in Goblin Caves, when they arent even communicating ingame with eachother

[stuck perch]

Maybe he's coming from that hellfire is usuable in pve to kill mobs quickly like magic missile but that's about where I see the similarities end.

[daring trail]

Correct, they have a similarity. but to then use that as an example for how cleric and warlock are just better wizards.. like wtf lol

[stuck perch]

Zap's dot is negligible and it does more burst damage/dps considering CoP needs 10 seconds to get the most out of it's damage per cast. Zap also has a limited amount of charges per fight.

[frosty agate]

Nerf The Warlocks movement capabilites or lower the damage output for how much they can spam their skills

[stuck perch]

But I get that wizard doesn't feel as fun to play as other casters unless you're all about one-shotting people with magic. Which is fine, glass canon wizards are a common class fantasy for wizards but it's not the only one and for those of us who want different options it gets old quickly.

[daring trail]

100%, very different spells.

Zaps are also easy to get back, obviously mid fight isnt viable, but you only need a 10 second meditation for all 5 zaps.

I think this is also why they are adjusting the HP cost of spells for warlock, because i agree, they shouldnt be able to just spam for 'free' essentially

[stuck perch]

I'd rather low cost spells on warlock with lower healing. I don't like the idea of safe healing on hydra or the massive heal scaling that used to happen with torture mastery. Take hydra healing out and drain life comes at a cost, you have to be close to the target, you can't move or it gets cut short and the 10 health initial cost is pretty hefty if you're low on health and can't get one off long enough to recoup and then some.

[daring trail]

I'd agree tbh
The idea of warlock is super cool, but it only takes a handful of +magic healing before they can just spam with no fear.

I dont think you should be able to heal off of your hydra. thats just busted. If we started there id like to see how that affects lock

[wet mortar]

I think it should be a % damage dealt heal

[stuck perch]

Now you'd need a way to deal with hydra healing ideally without just blocking it. I'd think it funny to either break the summon (it's not going to serve a master that tortures it) or have it break control and focus attack the target that uses curse of pain on it.

[daring trail]

hmmm they need to give a different class a healing debuff. that could also help

[stuck perch]

Return eldritch shield to 40points of shield, it can be used to block other warlocks from healing or life draining the target. Then make rogue's rupture cut magical healing received severely (I'd say both magical and physical healing, but it makes sense that if you're bleeding, bandages are the best first aid).

[wet mortar]

Shield made warlock even better at soloing every boss though. I don't think warlock should have that much defensive utility when they already have healing, doorblock, hallway block etc...

[daring trail]

Doesnt eldritch already do that?
Like if you have eldritch on, and a warlock COPs you, they wont heal because they technically didnt do any damage to you, so their perk wouldnt kick in

[stuck perch]

Yeah it had niche pve uses, but that's a minor problem that can be addressed later on.

[daring trail]

I think a 40hp is too much lol, i dont mind it staying at 25 but the HP cost going back down

[stuck perch]

Yes it does, but the amount of damage it can soak is ridiculously low and it doesn't scale with anything save the target's magic resist which makes it feel really weak (for a tier 5 spell)

[wet mortar]

Idk I just think warlock has too much defensive utility as is. Hellfire or Hydra can stop any chase

[daring trail]

Honeslty i see eldritch more as a "im not gonna take damage from my own spell casts"

which i think it does good at the 25hp value

but its cost shouldnt also be 10 on top of that

[stuck perch]

That's fair, but they're paying a heavy price for temporarily delaying the chase. Like in most balance problems, it's better to add counters than bring in nerfs, and if you have to nerf something you shouldn't nerf the primary use of something unless you really have no choice.

[wet mortar]

What price though? They just heal off the hydra or any mobs in the area or the guy chasing who's now stuck behind hydra.

I do agree though anti heal would be a nice thing, make rogue's poison do less damage but be an anti heal. Make rangers arrows antiheal instead of slow, idk just ideas not good ones lol.

[stuck perch]

Yay you save 15 health for going through the trouble of precasting the spell, and while Eldritch Shield doesn't scale, your other spells do so it might be somewhat viable at low gear, it's going to be useless at higher gear unless you really stack that magic resistance which makes for a boring system.

[wet mortar]

Giving anti heal to warlock and noone else was the strangest decision a dev has ever made imo

[stuck perch]

Like I said, I dislike healing through the hydra. If you try to drain life or CoP your own hydra I'd have that hydra turn around and start blasting you.

[wet mortar]

Agreed, I was talking current state of game though. I think that would be cool too if it actually buffed hydra making it rapid fire but die in 3 seconds while focusing on the CoP user because then you could do cool skill things where you CoP hydra while running to make it basically magic missile whoever's chasing you lol.

[stuck perch]

I wouldn't put anti-heal on the rogue's poison unless it was very light, I'd rather add it to rupture because it's an activatable ability not a passive one. CoP on as way to whip hydra into a frenzy is a cool idea. But I just don't like the heal aspect. It feels cheap.

[wet mortar]

Agreed, it's a 0 brain power move to heal off Hydra which I don't like. Anything strong should require at least some thought or skill to pull off. Poison I would think could just be a 30% reduction or something while only doing 1-2 damage perstack, bc rn it does so much damage.

[stuck perch]

Make it 5% per stack of poison, which means 25% at max stacks. Have rupture be something like 60 to 80%

[wet mortar]

Honestly though would prefer rogues get less love, their class is back to being busted all over again just got 2 shot earlier by a rogue as barb.

[forest storm]

What about giving Hydra a damage vulnerability to it's owner? make it take a high enough multiplier that it dies before a net positive can occur.

[stuck perch]

You don't give a problem child less love. You look at the available power budget of the class and you move things around so that they can fulfill their class fantasies without just shitting on everything else.

[stuck perch]

Make all summons cause a backlash to their summoner if they're killed before the duration ends.

Something like the same cost for summoning them. Hydra backlash would be an extra 20, evil eye would be an extra 3.

[wet mortar]

Sometimes the problem child needs to be put down XD.

[stuck perch]

Nothing is that ergegious here.

[wet mortar]

yea I'm trolling. Rogue needs work though, big time.

[stuck perch]

On the subject of balancing rogue, I'd make the rogue Caltrops and Smoke Pot utility items that you could buy and bring into the dungeon like ranger traps. I'd make caltrops a bit larger area, and I'd give the player the choice of throwing the caltrops where you're aiming at a distance or behind you depending on whether you left or right clicked while holding the item. Same thing with smoke pot.
I'd make the duration of Cut throat and other rogue abilities scale off of resourcefulness. I'd give them a perk that makes rupture reduce incoming healing (or add it straight to the base skill) I'd also make rupture deal true physical damage and scale off of only +true physical damage (and resourcefulness for the duration). The reasoning is that armor doesn't stop you from bleeding once you start bleeding.

Additional notes, considering rogue has too many perks that are too weak, I'd also remove the lockpick perk and let rogue start with a few lockpicks. Also lockpicks wouldn't be consumed on a successful use but the difficulty of the check would depend on the quality of the chest or door and the stats of the user, becoming easier with agi and resourcefulness.

The difficulty in balancing rogue is mostly the stealth mechanics. Stealth either feels too weak or rogues pop out of stealths and kills someone before they have a chance to react. There are ways of making stealth more fun to play rather than just picking one of those two options. The assassin fantasy is a strong class fantasy that many rogue players want to play and we need to respect that and make it fun but also keep it from getting out of hand. A rogue ambushing you should be scary but should also leave you with time to turn around and defend yourself.

[wet mortar]

Yea agreed, the damage they do right now is just absurd, never should rogues do 170 damage in 2 hits

[stuck perch]

Rogues could be given a mechanic where instead of it being an activatable ability, stealth would be something that you get after standing still for a few seconds, the exact number of time would be based on how dark the area is. Likewise brining a light into the room would drain the rogue's stealth away based on the amount of light, wizard's light orb being very bright and very effective where as a torch would be less so and more torchers more so than a single torch. Moving would also consume some of this energy so a rogue could creep around but would have to stop every now and then to regain his stealth energy especially if the area is well lit.
This doesn't address the problem of ambushes but it makes stealth more interactable and interesting. Perks and skills could enhance the effectiveness of stealth or grant some interesting interactions while within it. For example a shadow step ability where when in stealth you can use it to teleport to an area within line of sight. Something like this might be fun and it's not just stacking damage.

The Ambush perk is probably the culprit here. The rogue's sneak attack that's core to his identity is also represented in the Back Attack perk and stealth can be a vehicle to set that up as opposed to stacking everything and exploding people.

[mighty quarry]

As Casual player now there no seperate queue for lvel 15 and below I and my friends are suffering., Also could we get a gear level queue

[wet mortar]

I think classes need to have caps on certain stats, cause every rogue running 1 shot build has 28 str lol

[stuck perch]

That's one option, but I dislike the idea of caping stats differently on different classes. It makes them less universal.

[wet mortar]

Idk I mean a rogue should not ever have more hp than barb... They should just change weapon scaling to more D&D style, make rapiers and daggers finesse that scale with agility instead of strength

[stuck perch]

That's an option too, but then you'd get a single stat for both damage and attack speed on those weapons and you risk problems with that later on.

Rogues don't have a lot of resistances so we a decent balance point other classes would still be able to burst them down relatively easily.

[wet mortar]

Yea. The way they've done attributes though is just faulty. There's never really a way to balance classes when attributes have such universal effects.

[stuck perch]

hmm... while I think attributes need particular care for tuning I think they're a solid foundation for the game if you take out or severely limit +all attributes. The game is made to scale all attributes up to 100.

[pallid patio]

literally nothing to spend my money on

[wet mortar]

They should remove all atts entirely, best in my opinion is to give classes sub-stats that are offsets to core atts. IE give rogue a weaker scaling for HP & dmg from strength than other classes. Give barb less attack speed than rogue per point of agility... etc

[abstract swallow]

the game really needs durability & repair so we can start filtering gold and items out of the economy
especially if they want gear to drop at such rates that people can gear up naturally in the dungeon despite the item bloat

[stuck perch]

Some low flat damage reduction on armor, not rolled stuff but primary modifiers (the white bonuses on gear) could encourage players to keep their clothes on and soften the blows of quick low damage weapons especially for heavier armors. These could be hit box specific or overall.

[ornate solstice]

Goblin caves, more like team caves

[stuck perch]

That is how many games do that. I'm not entirely sold on it, but it would offer more control over how players build their characters.

[jagged flicker]

Hitscan spells got NO COUNTERPLAY, with the exception of "Don't be in range" but that goes for EVERYTHING

[stuck perch]

I don't think the current drop rate is feasible for the long term, they might just want to collect data in a setting where gear is everywhere.

[stuck perch]

They just nerfed the 1 counter they had because it made wizards mad they couldn't one shot everyone anymore with zaps.

[abstract swallow]

lower drop rates and longer wipes just has the same problem spread out over a long period of time

[mighty quarry]

Gear matching please

[stuck perch]

Yeah they're trying to solve the problem before finding the sweet spot for the drop rate or it'll take years to accumulate the data especially if we wipe regularly.

[jagged flicker]

I can dodge/block/bait my movement around every spell a wizard has but zap and curse of pain just suck to deal with.

[pallid patio]

Shield?

[abstract swallow]

just shoot them

[stuck perch]

What class are you playing with?
@pallid patio Yeah eldritch shield was that counter.

[jagged flicker]

Hitscan spells should be made solid is all I'm saying. Like, healing wave or beam; a tendril of energy. Like; make them SUPER fast idc but hitscan spells are easily abused with cheats.

[stuck perch]

I believe you can block them with your shield if you're a warrior or cleric. Rogue has cut throat to give you a few seconds to cut the wizard down. Ranger just outranges the wizard to name a few.

[jagged flicker]

Yeah I just enjoy counterplay, being pointed at and falling over dead is lame to me.

[stuck perch]

Indeed, but counterplay is not limited to dodging and tactics in the fight it starts before the match.

[jagged flicker]

Blocking w. shield is nice but the shield has to be 100% raised to block anything.

shield bash isn't a block so arrows/swords sail through it while you blind yourself to the front.

[tight flicker]

Fujking change the zwei, its so dam useless. change the fking animation like jesus fck

[jagged flicker]

If you hold block against magic missile, every other missile goes through your shield.

[stuck perch]

Yeah I wish the block speed was shorter, thankfully action speed helps with that. I'm also not opposed to shields always being able to block like monster shields. Blocking with it only brings it up in front and triggers any perks you have while in defensive stance.

[jagged flicker]

Shields should be static. If thats too strong, make them heavier or something I say.

[stuck perch]

You have to learn to use it. Don't look straight at your opponent, start your blow with the sword on the opponent and turn with the blow to keep it on him.

[tight flicker]

no, no other weapon is like that. maybe the war maul, but that one is so much easier to use. the maps are way to small for somthing swinging that wide. Idc

[jagged flicker]

Stepping to either side and spinning in place with the blade helps. The right click starts low and behind your right foot.

[stuck perch]

That's a good compromise.

[jagged flicker]

It's true, classic fighting manuals state the zwei, and polearms are "Field weapons" and 90% of this game is in corridors. They shine on ruins pretty good tho.

[stuck perch]

Double Axe is pretty wide. It's not a problem with the zweihander but a problem with 2-handed weapons in general. Take a few swings in the air and make sure you understand it's attack pattern, both the main and secondary ones.

[tight flicker]

wow one map out of the whole game. just change the animation. there is a reason its never used

[jagged flicker]

I make it work. It did take many many runs to come around to her

[tight flicker]

lmao no its just the zwei. i can use everything else, but the zwei. theres a reason no one uses it.

[stuck perch]

Not just ruins, they shine in any open rooms. Just keep a back up weapon as well.

[jagged flicker]

Ye I find myself switching to viking sword to avoid TK or in tight.

[tight flicker]

90% of the game is corridors, and small ass rooms with braziers and barrels everywhere

[stuck perch]

Hey I run zwei on my fighter sometimes. It's a fun weapon if you can get the hang of it.

[tight flicker]

again, no one uses it, thats why they had to buff it. and still no one uses it

[jagged flicker]

best sword to get a 3k at head level tho

[stuck perch]

Granted that's usually as a solo fighter in crypts.

It's great for clearing pve.

[tight flicker]

yea right, if they are blivious maybe, shields are ur worst enemy with that weapon, let alone the million of objects that can stop ur swing

[jagged flicker]

I go Adrenaline SWIPE SWIPE ; pause ; SWIPE SWIPE

It's base impact is good into shields actually. 🤓

[tight flicker]

if only it worked like thatits a miracle to get the whole combo off without hitting something

[tight flicker]

oh yea, dont forget the slow swing speed, that makes the impact on shields, useless. by the time ur next swing is going, they have recovered

[jagged flicker]

idk I kill folks with it. I'm going to have to hitchu w. the Skill Issue. and recommend practice. AND if it's use rate plummets more, it'll be buffed. :3

[jagged flicker]

Turn character with swing to improve speed.

[tight flicker]

again, if i have to practice with 1 weapon to learn it? its a bad weapon. u dont have to do that with any other weapon

[jagged flicker]

Yeah it's weird, I improved with practice.

[tight flicker]

and ur not the whole population, if no one is using it, theres a problem

[jagged flicker]

They buff weapons based on use rate btw.

[tight flicker]

yea exactlycuz no one uses it

[jagged flicker]

Ye it was buffed with 45 movespeed from 50.

[tight flicker]

dont buff the damage, cahnge the dam animation, wowww minus 5 movespeed, def gonna make me wanna use it more

[jagged flicker]

Feels fine 2 me. 😛 GL

[tight flicker]

ur not the whole population, for the second time

its not a good weapon, due to the animation. u never see it being used, maybe once ina blue moon

[stuck perch]

That's the case with all weapons though, some maybe more intuitative than others but practice makes you better with everyone of them.

[jagged flicker]

felling axe is my least fav weapon btw. Bland yet OP. Like eating C4.

[tight flicker]

all of them are intuitive, except zwei

[tight flicker]

battle axe is bland

[jagged flicker]

At least it has a right click and you can jerk to the left to hit multiple target dummies.

[stuck perch]

I fine Zwei easier than double axe.

[tight flicker]

maybe u do, but the general public, dont use zwei. cuz of the animation, everyone ive met agrees

[jagged flicker]

idk there's 2 of us here. and 1 of u

[jagged flicker]

I clicked w. double axe much quicker than zwei, it's lower right foot slightly behind start up got me in alot of trouble playtest 2

[tight flicker]

honestly i think yall are saying u use the zwei for the sake of being different. no one goes out of their way for a zwei. no one picks up a zwei unless they have to. zwei is horrible, fix it. good day

[jagged flicker]

I grew up with zwei in darksouls, it's a comfort weapon. I'd still love her even if her moveset got WORSE.

[cobalt root]

Zwei's swing is so wide you can't use it in any corridor

[tight flicker]

dont give the zwei a personifiation. do that with the flamberg. leave the amazing german engineering alone

[jagged flicker]

You can do shorter arcs by turning against the flow.

[jagged flicker]

u da police?

[tight flicker]

if i had to do that for ONE weapon. ill just not use that. isnt mordhau

[jagged flicker]

works on all weapons. I recommend heavy on the falch. Can shorten an arc to stop yourself from hitting a homie.

[tight flicker]

no

[jagged flicker]

i feel as though you just negging me nao

[forest storm]

It isn't all weapons tho it helps on battle axe's alt attack and war maul's primary swing too

[tight flicker]

no, change the zwei

[jagged flicker]

I'm just being helpful. 😳

Oh start a suggestion! I'll upvote u :3
I recommend going to #suggestion-discussion

[tight flicker]

i get ur giving advice. but like i said. its the only weapon that u have to learn to use. everything else is intuitive, to me atleast. its a bad weapon. u just pined the chat we are in

[jagged flicker]

I know; I was being a turd. If you want change, this is the place. Make a suggestion if u feel so strongly.

[tight flicker]

people have already

[jagged flicker]

Link it.

[tight flicker]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/487040/zweihander-attack-reworkimprovement

[stuck perch]

There are plenty of weapons fitting different styles of play. Some more popular than others it doesn't mean the ones that are less popular are bad. Zwei has some strong advantages too.

[jagged flicker]

Voted up. Hopefully it all works out.

[tight flicker]

no, no ur just wrong. everything else is commonly used cause its easy and intuitive to use. zwei isnt, thank you

[jagged flicker]

They right. There's a distinct range and aoe advantage zwei has even over the maul. chefs kiss

[tight flicker]

except is unuseable in most areas of the game, so, change it

[jagged flicker]

I particulaly enjoy, Left Click Hold - for two sweeps and going straight into rightclick for a 4 hit string.

[tight flicker]

everyone ik disagrees, everyone ive met disagrees. if i start seeing more people use it. ill admit im just nitpicking

[runic musk]

i think it needs slightly more damage or swing speed to be of any use

[tight flicker]

change the animation

[jagged flicker]

I think it should stagger more mobs or something, feels bad to plant your feet and just trade.

[runic musk]

overhead swing on right-click perhaps

[jagged flicker]

Dedicated thrust right click would be s i c k

[tight flicker]

give it a darksouls greatswords swing

[runic musk]

thrust and twist like rondell

[jagged flicker]

would love to drag it into a launch. Sparks flyin and all that.

[tight flicker]

overhand, underhand repeat. make it that, ill use it. u mean the kriss? zwei wasnt meant for that. maybe the flamberg. but the kriss is jaged, zwei isnt

[stuck perch]

Now you're just confusing me, you agree with me or them on the Zwei?

[jagged flicker]

Wanna see a curved greatsword, a scimitar, a katana(kill me), shotel all that stuff.

[tight flicker]

i want shotel

[runic musk]

honestly maybe innate non scale-able bleeds?

[stuck perch]

Maybe replace the first secondary attack with a trust instead of the upwards slash.

[jagged flicker]

If small then yes. Nail bat(club) would be fun

[tight flicker]

gie me shotel, me wanna be Noob Saibot.

[jagged flicker]

I'd upvote a Shotel vote.

[tight flicker]

overhand, underhand. easy animation. could make people slip up to

[jagged flicker]

currently the opposite tbqh

[tight flicker]

yea yea

[jagged flicker]

Wish its start up wasnt AS slow

[tight flicker]

give it a pommel hit. low damage but faster

[drowsy wigeon]

they really need a pvp map it gets pretty boring after a bit fighting the same adds over and over to get to the fun pvp

[jagged flicker]

THAT. And a follow up if it lands.

[tight flicker]

pommel into downward

[jagged flicker]

make a suggestion and I'll share it everywhere.

pommel > downward zwei would make for a great weapon.

[small furnace]

Bad idea, I no likey durability system. I do agree there needs to be more gold sinks though. On top of that I also think they should do something about trade flippers. There are people running trade bots that are in trade chat 24/7 spamming ads. (Not just the gold sellers)

[tight flicker]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500279/zweihander-animation-rework

[rancid gull]

nobody is actually against adding more wizard spells, right?

[thorn pewter]

there is a stacked fighter with falchion of honor bashing lows on normal GOBCAVE and round will end soon guys pls get this noob in next round TY

[runic musk]

i mean they are suppose to be an arsenal mage in contrast to sorcerer?

[small furnace]

It's already planned.

[abstract swallow]

there has to be a soft found-in-raid requirement
no retrading items unless you extract with them

[rancid gull]

aight sick, ty for the info I have no clue where yall find out about this kinda thing though LMAO

[runic musk]

leaks and qna

[small furnace]

That sounds pretty good to me, though idk how they will handle value store items in that case. Guess an exception could be made for them.

[jagged flicker]

easy upvote, shared on my home discord.

[abstract swallow]

just limit it to actual gear

[stuck perch]

They said they were looking at adding a magic lock wizard spell

[thorn pewter]

what is magic lock?

[stuck perch]

I don't know the details duration wise, but imagine a spell you can cast on a door to lock it.

[small furnace]

Could be, but I still don't like the chatbots that flip value store items. They should really work on banning those people. Or just.. y'know make trade chat better so the people thriving aren't the ones that have actual bots.

[faint merlin]

Even after the changes, warlock still does too much on one class.

[jagged flicker]

from what I understand it's a door locking spell

[stuck perch]

I'd imagine it works on chests too but that's super niche.

[jagged flicker]

So is Light tbf. Revealing invis, and having a torch;;

[stuck perch]

No, revert the Eldritch shield nerf to 40 soak and let the other classes catch up.

[small furnace]

Door locking would be OP. I think they'd need to give other classes a way to deal with it. Imagine you find a fighter and you chase him into a room with only one entrance. You magic lock him inside and there's literally nothing he can do, his run is over.

[runic musk]

tried selling a troll pelt and there is the same fee players insta trading those, the entire day

[jagged flicker]

I miss old Arcane Barrier(40), soaking my own chain lightning gave me life.

[small furnace]

Yeah, they're bots. Players have setup bots to monopolize trade chat.

[stuck perch]

It could be that it only works on some doors or it has a set duration but I don't think it's that bad outside of some niche abuse.

[runic musk]

one solution would be lock most inventory space expanders behind quest rewards

[jagged flicker]

Let me sell it to you. You hear a cleric shield bubbling their whole team in crypts through a door and you......

[stuck perch]

Like I said maybe it only works on some doors but lockpicks are available and you could always break the door as plenty of classes have options for that.

[jagged flicker]

S'fair. I'd like a Glyph spell that locks it, and EXPLODES when someone forces it.

[small furnace]

Duration would be cool, provided it doesn't let you re-do it right after the duration.

Think of the wraith hall room for instance. Imagine a team without a barb, wiz, or warlock or bard is fighting wraith. Le wizard troll comes up to do and magic locks it. That entire team's run would be over if they had a way to chain do it or it was permanent.

Only certain classes can break doors.

[stuck perch]

That. and other things. It's not a bad thing for there to be counters to some classes. And eldritch shield isn't cheap to bring in.

[tight flicker]

@jagged flickerhopefull it gets changed. i wanna use it more, but it just isnt viable

[jagged flicker]

I agree, it's expensive. It should be worth it's weight in memory, or they should LOWER the cost alongside a nerf.

[stuck perch]

Or rogue, or someone with lockpicks. You'd have to lock EVERY door to the room to make it abusable.

[jagged flicker]

I personally would love to pommel strike someones face and then cut them in half.

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500279/zweihander-animation-rework

[stuck perch]

With the wraith, skele champion and a bunch of other enemies they could bait them into smashing the door as well.

[tight flicker]

yea me too. Like a sick slam into the ground, then a rise

[small furnace]

Wraith hall is a giant room with only one door, which is why I gave a valid example. I don't like the idea that something can have no counterplay unless your comp accounts for it.

Hydra is fine because it's limited time and can be killed if it blocks you, there should be some counterplay that doesn't rely on certain classes or items.

They should make it like Hydra so there is counterplay if someone does use it to lock you somewhere.

[stuck perch]

Which one is that? I'm not thinking of the same room as you. But that would be a good example of a room you'd want to make the door not lockable.

[small furnace]

One with the Royal Coffin in it. There's only one entrance into that room and it's a small door at the end of the hall.

You could bait wraith to get the door, but if the wizard locks the door you probably won't hear him doing it while you're fighting wraith.

[jagged flicker]

Crypts, it has a churchy feel, several stone caskets mirrored to either side and spots to drop in from hallways with zombies from above the room.

[stuck perch]

Alright I remember it, it's directly north of the maze on one map. Like I said, they could make some doors not lockable or you just have to go in that door knowing you want to destroy it with the wraith or an archer before committing to the room.

[jagged flicker]

Ye I could see if being cancer if you get caught in a one way out scenerio, but maybe that's the point;

[stuck perch]

Just make sure every room has at least 1 not lockable door.

[jagged flicker]

some spells kill u, this spell kills u but with the storm.

[small furnace]

I think the intended use for it, and the ACCEPTABLE use for it.

Is stalling someone. Like if you have a funnel on the swarm and you stall the enemy team they either have to go around or wait it out and take big damage.

Just don't want to see it be an OP spell with no counterplay.

[jagged flicker]

Can't wait to lock a door Riiiiiiiight after a cleric full bubbles their team. Finna nut oceans.

[jagged flicker]

I agree that counterplay should be core to anything added in.

(fuk curse of pain/zap for being hitscan and therefor undodgeable. You just gotta hope they miss ffsbbq)

[stuck perch]

Because door breaking and lockpicking is already a thing it already has counterplay. Counter play starts before the match including things like party composition and bringing in certan supplies. Besides it can't be worse than that time I spawned as rogue behind a wooden barricade I couldn't break despite whaling on it for several minutes before the swarm over too me.

[small furnace]

I don't approve of class-limited counterplay. I think it's very bad to limit the game in such a way. Certainl classes should be good against other classes yes but it shouldn't be the case of: "Oops, you don't have [class] that took [perk option] therefore you have zero counterplay."

One of the bosses is a great example of this where you just have to cleanse your teammate or else they die. It's just such lazy design.

The scenario you described shouldn't exist either.

[jagged flicker]

the sour hit on daggers won't break stuff;

[fast lily]

My random hot take suggestion is that they should make every weapon have a parry, like longsword. It's so friggin fun and I think would add more to melee so it's not just hard rushdown every time. Yes, they should let you parry with the book. It should be the ultimate disrespect.

[jagged flicker]

mm.. preach. I agree with that first paragraph 100.

[stuck perch]

Lockpicks are usable by every class, several classes also have additional unlock or door breaking mechanics. That's a lot of counter play. But there are options like making at least 1 clear exit out of that room even if you have to go through the storm.
That boss thing if you don't have a cleric you can get around it by either stacking with others or not stacking with others depending on the color of the circle. This includes the boss himself and his adds.

[jagged flicker]

I want weapon - weapon collision. Parry ? nawh CLASH to block.

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500279/zweihander-animation-rework Could y'all vote this up, I rather like the idea of a pommel strike.

[small furnace]

Assuming this would not be a spell that costs a lot of memory, any base wizard could take it.

Expecting people with base kits to bring lockpicks in casually is unlikely, and it's unfair to have that.

Even if there's 2 ways out of a room a wizard shouldn't be able to lock them both assuming the time is unlimited or he can re-lock them once they expire instantly. I also think it would be too much work for IM to program each door specifically to be lock-able or not.

[ivory quartz]

Until Rogue is buffed, no other class should be able to open locked chests without a lockpick.

[stuck perch]

Yeah that's what I'm saying make some doors not lockable. Or take them off their hinges and leave it open.

[small furnace]

I get what you're saying but as I already said I think that would be way too much work for IM. Don't think they'd be able to do that. What they COULD do is make it so doors are breakable by every class, it just takes a good amount of time. Like for a rogue it could take 10-20 dagger stabs to break down a door. Or 10 swings of an arming sword. Then it's still a very good stall.

[stuck perch]

Thoughts on these QoL changes for rogues? The one after has more wild stuff.
#suggestion-discussion message

[jagged flicker]

if you could sum up some changes to singular suggestions I'll upvote it.

[lucid acorn]

ahh, so glad game is one again unplayable. first ranger, now cleric! im glad we are letting holy strike not only flash the living hell outta people, but do infinite dmg from a safe space!!! woowo!! thanks ironmace!! like playing a riot games game

[tight flicker]

ill upvote, if u upvote my zwei idea = )

[stuck perch]

Too much work? That's adding a single bool property to the door class, leaving it lockable by default then going through the maps and toggling it to false once per room. That's less than an hour of work and most of that is toggling the property on different doors.

[small furnace]

They'd also have to decide which doors are fair/unfair and IM has a lot of problems making decisions/sticking to them historically.

[stuck perch]

I don't disagree there.

[fast lily]

Rogue's Lockpick perk should be able to lock doors. It would take a long time to lock and require either a lockpick to unlock or you need to break it down (or maybe just a very, very long open if you don't have a lockpick).

[jagged flicker]

(going to play dark and darker nao, y'all keep those polls flowing, be the change u wanna see)

[tight flicker]

u got a full team?

[stuck perch]

Originally instead of a magic lock I would have seen the spell be a door freeze, it's a cold spell that jams a door closed for 20 to 30s. You can't pick it but you can destroy it (it would take a 2nd blow though).

[ivory quartz]

I agree with a quite a few of the suggestions. I think smoke pot and caltrops prob should be useable items. I think rather than making cutthroat scale on resourcefulness, a better idea would be to make it do magic damage that scales with +magic damage, so their is a viable way to build Magic damage rogue. I also like the rupture idea as well. I think stealth is actually fine as it is, now that it only lasts 15 seconds and for the first second you use it you have that shimmer, I think its reasonably balanced with actual skill required to use.

[jagged flicker]

Yer ❤️

[tight flicker]

no worries

[stuck perch]

Stealth as is, isn't all that fun and people have complained that wizard and bard make for better stealth enabling classes than rogues due to stealth not being that great.

Since stealth is core to the rogue class identity I think that's a serious issue.

[tight flicker]

dont forget the dumb grey smoke u leave behind paired with that 15 secs

[stuck perch]

The problem with stealth pre-rogue nerf was the ambush perk.

[small furnace]

This game is a meme rn btw. I make more from farming ruins as a naked rogue than I do playing HR. The economy is so wack.

[tight flicker]

true true

[uneven osprey]

gold farmers

[short heath]

They don't really care about the economy, though. They do in a sense of preventing duping/overinflating, but not in the sense of where people seem to be getting the most bang for their buck, so to speak. They don't care that Ruins still has increased drop rates over the naturally increased drop rates that came with the most recent patch that buffed it. Whether that's an oversight or how they want it to be, we don't know, but it certainly is bass ackwards.

[small furnace]

I am not talking about ruins drop rates. If we're talking about drop rates HR wins for sure.

On a decent HR run I come out with 500 gold of sellables, which is really good. I'm risking a decent kit, usually the kit is worth like 800g or something like that but I find you can get out pretty often and you find more kit once you're in.

HR is good, the problem is...

Going in as a naked rogue with only a pickaxe on ruins you can get anywhere from 5-15 gold per run. Each gold is worth 150g each ore veins have a minimum of 2. You risk only the 25g from the pickaxe which is basically nothing and you come out with far more money than you could earn in an HR run.

This isn't something I'm just guessing on btw, I spent 2 hours last night and I made 4k in gold from doing this riskless strategy.

[short heath]

I mean people were doing similar in previous patches in GC runs. Not making as much g/h, but it was 100% the best and safest method to do naked mining runs.

[stuck perch]

For those of you who like my QoL rogue change suggestions here's a link to upvote
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500287/rogue-balancing-proposal#comment560929

I'll keep the wild stealth proposal separate because the above ones are more down to earth.

[small furnace]

Yeah but it's orders of magnitude less than what we have now. There's no reason that naked farming should be more profitable than literal HR runs.

[vague verge]

So why is there a confirmation yes no box for leaving trade channels

[short heath]

If you're talking in terms of solely g/hr and extraction rate, I'd agree, and maybe it shouldn't be as easy as it currently is... but HR is by no means unprofitable right now. Taking a few runs to not engage in pvp and just mine/extract to get some gold to buy gear is perfectly fine, imo. It's just a different way of playing the game - which does come with its own risk. If you DO get engaged on during a mining run, you're likely 100% dead, whereas during a typical HR run that's not the case. So you're trading g/hr for survivability in the event that you run into an engagement.

[stuck perch]

For those of you who like my wilder stealth change suggestion here it is:
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500289/stealth-change-proposal#comment560932

[small furnace]

If you DO get engaged on during a mining run, you're likely 100% dead

Not if you're playing rogue. Which I am.

I have hide and smoke bomb and I wear no clothes so I run faster than everyone else.

I got away many times, even had one time where someone came to contest my mining and I pickpocketed the ore off of them and ran away.

It's quite literally riskless, you go in with nothing you come out with a good amount of ore a lot of the time.

HR is not unprofitable, it's just crazy how easy it is to get gold through this riskless strat that's actually quite easy.

[subtle summit]

Suggestion: Ironmace should have never folded to pressure and left weapon damage and +phys damages off the fucking table
Rangers with +~35 damage added to their shots because every single item has +add phys or +weapon damage, phys power, you name it. It's stupid af and one shot mechanics should be nerfed hard.

One shot mechanics make the game unfun and unenjoyable for everyone. And I get that you could say "skill issue" or something but there's hardly any counterplay in a comp like that unless they play horribly.
I'd also like to mention I love IM and have from the start, but folding to pressure constantly is making the game worse and whiplash updates are starting to get silly.

[gray crane]

You're not wrong. The item changes just after the patch were awesome Granted, the loot was too crazy, that needed to be turned down. Now we get streamers rolling everyone in normal lobbies in full purple/legendary crafted gear

[subtle summit]

Look if anyone important even reads this -- if removing stuff like that is the intended way you guys want the game, we all signed up for early access with a warning, no? Then remove it and don't bend to people complaining because "my stash is worthless now." Especially when the loot system currently allows people to have a huge abundance of good gear.

Something something I miss the old way of suggestions where you can downvote suggestions.. do a server wide poll. It allows for interaction with most of the people in the discord who care.

[forest storm]

They need to make it so that damage stats are displayed in the details while in stash like have a slot 1 and slot 2 stats section

[iron snow]

Could they add an option where you could hold shift over a piece of gear to show a comparison of stats?

[lucid acorn]

ahh, so glad game is one again unplayable. first ranger, now cleric! im glad we are letting holy strike not only flash the living hell outta people, but do infinite dmg from a safe space!!! woowo!! thanks ironmace!! like playing a RIOT games game

[stable robin]

make helmet and gloves offensive enchants and chest and pants armor/health and make boots util/mobility and all of them can get + stats no sense in all armor getting +damage

[kindred haven]

Game needs a wipe this economy is fucked every piece of gear is worth more then a trade window of gold

[granite plinth]

so the general consensus is the games fucked at the minute, is that right ?

Im waiting for the end of month wipe, but im curious to where the games at.

[abstract swallow]

the game is fine, but there's not a lot to it right now
sweats can build their juicy kits, casuals are drowning and loot, but people inbetween are in an awkward spot

[granite plinth]

righton, yeah imma bing chill until the next update i reckon. Would love to see uber rare high tier loot, like its fucking special if you get something nice

with a generous middle ground for good pvp + easier pve for the hatchlings

[kindred haven]

Weird spot theres so much gold, and rogues once again all you find in high roller looting all chest and disappearing. Everything cost 1k gold for blue poop items , golden keys are 5k gold lol

[granite plinth]

wait what the fuck, 1k for blue items xD thats not good

[kindred haven]

If you want a good item like nice rolled purple. 2-5k gold which doesn’t fit in trade window so you need bars or golden keys

[keen scaffold]

let bards play music while sitting down. It just makes sense that a bard should be able to play and cast tranquility while sitting for himself and teammates, and to refresh buffs. Gather round the campfire and sing a campfire song ya know?

[iron snow]

give bard a perk that lets your teammates play instruments that have your spells but requires spell capacity

[pallid patio]

"Jam Sesh"

[iron snow]

please

[stone marlin]

ARCHER IS AN ARCHER BECAUSE IT CAN USE BOWS TAKE OFF BOWS OF OTHER FUCKING CLASSES OR TAKE ARCHER FUJCKING OUT THE GAME XD MAKE SOME FUCKING SENSE

[hazy chasm]

combined stash/storage for all characters -- 2x2 or a 10x10, just something, please -- i hate using a collectors discord, waiting around, paying comission, or waiting for a friend -- copy diablos combined stash tab

[stuck perch]

They nerfed two spells that countered Holy strike in the last patch. This might be what they want for it?

[oblique pewter]

nerf crossbow pls full weapon dmg is so cheat oneshot barb wtf

[undone pecan]

plz buff warlocks healing slightly im legit using a 10 magical healing set and i cant heal anything with curse of pain i understand the OP healing stage was nuts but i feel the nerf hammer has hit slightly too hard maybe

[small furnace]

@crystal veldt I think I killed you earlier. Assuming your name is "NajzekoFighter" I am AggressiveKira.

[crystal veldt]

oh yo yeah that was me, just levelling fighter

[small furnace]

RIP, it's okay I lost my entire gear set after killing you to swarm rng anyway so you can rest assured karma was served.

[wet mortar]

Good. You should have to use spells strategically.

[crystal veldt]

lmaoooo yeah nw I didn't have anything

[kindred haven]

make golden keys not tradeable

[idle moat]

HAVE BEST SUGGESTION FOR ROUGES. They are bussted you cannot balance them and make them meta. only thing you could do is remove invisibility !!!!!!!! change that skill so when you use it your steps just dont make a sound ... then they will be skilled to use this and there will be counter play to look around ... perk creep is just too broken ... theyr damage is good now. But think about this. take any mele class and try to out dps them in mele range .. there is no class that could do that besides barbarian one shot.. and if you doge barbs shot you just klill any class for free from ambush. they are over kitted too many good perks.. making new perks does not balance stuff they just make class more wersatile and harder to ballance in the future because you have to think about all perks and stuff .. i know devs want to make good game and balanced on every class but please just fire theyr balancing team and hire someone who plays this game not just thinks about it

TO be honest 60 prc of the loby players in ruins are rouges and its insane how much they can tank rangers hits and they just two shot you .. like rouge with cleric its just ounstopoble

[wet mortar]

Rogues can tank every classes hits, because they get up to 30+ strength which gives them around 130-140 hp

I've had a rogue tank double axe hit just to 2 shot me

[idle moat]

if you go giered that doesent mater he has weak point that literaly goes through you like a paper. how is this balanced . when they nerfed them game was literaly most fun i had in a year. and i play this game 10+ hours every day

[split lake]

Jeez… someone’s angry. Have a snickers. You aren’t yourself when you’re hungry.

[idle moat]

bro, want to see some nice videos xDD i am not bad i just record my game and give feed back .. having rouges at this state of the game is not healthy for the game

[stuck perch]

Stealth is part of the rogue's class identity you need to respect that or rogues will suck.

[idle moat]

yes . SO MAKE THEM STEALTHY not invinceble. as my suggestion says imagine double jumping rouge who does not make step sounds ... the thing is they use invisibility not to be stealthy but to increase theyr damage output with ambush plus to get first hit on you and dager and rapier spead is so high you just basicly hit them once and they kill you before you can swing your sword back. there is no class in this game that doesn't make sence as rouge.. this is insane it was always insane . and when it was nerfed it was still good. even players sayed it dog shit. oh my now i have to hit 4 times in stead of 2 and now i have to have gier. bro rouges goes in now with 0 gier with good rapier and they kill everyone. before they got buffed again they had to have some gier. we as players gier up on all slots and they just bypass that

i am not mad or anything just died today everytime to rouge there was nothing i could do they tanked 4-5 ranger body shots. this is just insanity. i have gier as fighter i hit 80 with falcion head shot . but that does not matter i can swing only once before i die ..

[tawdry sail]

remove bonus luck from bard. every bard i group with is "oh can i loo that? huehue its better if i do!" just guys wtf its a looting game why would you do this lol

[hazy sinew]

Ya'll should add a feature where when a ranger is at a campfire he gets his forage back after roasting meat on the fire for a cool lil animation. Like spells or second wind kind of

[hazy sinew]

your entire point on getting less loot is "oh I want to loot the box though even though I'll get worse stuff!"

[stuck perch]

If I don't take the luck perk as a bard my group looks at me weird and asks me what my purpose is in the party. Some groups don't even want me to play songs, just loot while they clear and share the loot after.

[pine comet]

Literally just find a bard that doesn't take everything when they open it

[hot hemlock]

You know you dont HAVE to let them loot it right

[stuck perch]

Yeah so the problem is the ambush perk, not the stealth itself.

[hot hemlock]

Just make it so ambush only works after 3s of invis, then you dont have these apes pushing you and just tapping E for 30% dmg buff

[wet mortar]

Just make ambush back stab attacks only each attack does 40% more damage to the back for

[hot hemlock]

Thats what back stab is for, positioning shouldnt be the key it should be an actual "ambush" or "surprise attack" required

Make them have to think before using invis instead of just saying yea lemme tap this and hit u rq

[stuck perch]

30% buff? It's a 50% buff

[hot hemlock]

Even more egregious, the logic still applies

[stuck perch]

Remove the ambush perk and let people use the stealth to get in position and line up the back attack perk. Back attack still fufils the sneak attack class fantasy but it's much less egregious.

[oak orbit]

add 3 grey and 3 white clarity pots to the alchemist

[winter bison]

can we please make last circle last more then 2 seconds its bs fighting at the end and just dead to zone cuz its too damn fast

[ivory quartz]

New suggestion, Hydra needs to be removed from the game. It is obvious that IM doesn't know how to program it so that warlocks can't heal off their own summons or they would have done it. And no cost for the spell can be high enough to balance it, they could make it cost 50 health and it would still be the meta build. As such Hydra should be removed and no more summons should be attempted.

[stuck perch]

Aww come on, I know hydra healing is broken but removing it and all other summons from the game is reductive.

[ivory quartz]

If they can't stop warlocks from self healing off their own summons, the only other options avaialble are remove Warlocks ability to self heal or gut the class so hard in other ways that it is essentially useless. Self healing off your summons is the most toxic mechanic in any game and their is a reason it hasn't been in any mainline rpg for 20 years.

[vast tide]

Which doesn't make sense right? Since you can't heal off when you hit your teammates with spells.

[forest storm]

I honestly prefer other mechanics to change it like making the hydra deal damage to you if you deal fatal damage to your own summon or or make it frenzy attacking the caster if they attack it.

[stuck perch]

I say any healing specific mechanic (CoP or Drain life) on a summon should turn the warlock hostile in the eyes of his summon. Maybe add him to the top of the threat queue or something.

Summoning stays a thing, and warlocks who try to get cheeky get slapped. Having a summon die due to damage should cause backlash damage back to the summoner. Especially possession style summons.

[jagged flicker]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/500279/zweihander-animation-rework

Some guy ended up being constructive with his complaints, and I said I'd upvote it if he actually made a suggestion out of his salt. And; well. It's actually quite nice; Pommel strike > Downward Slash on hit with Zwei. +1 pls.

[stuck perch]

Then they're not coding different rules for who get hit by CoP or drain life and how that affects things. Magic stays the same, but CoP your summon and you get the same treatment as if the match starts and you CoP your PUG team mate.

[stuck perch]

I'd go thrust into downward slash. Pommel strikes while cool are really short ranged which goes against the advantage of the weapon and telegraphs too much to the enemy.
Even better, give us a half-swording thrust!

[forest storm]

Those are all great ideas but the dude in the comments saying zwei needs a repost is on something
not onto something, on something

[wet mortar]

People really out here trying to charge 125G per lockpick nuts

[tired ingot]

They should add a repost with spear that pushes the enemy back

[wet mortar]

no

[tired ingot]

why lmfao, no damage just knock back

[wet mortar]

spear already a nightmare to deal with, does not need any buffs, and rangers should not have the ability to block unless using pavise

[jagged flicker]

I'd block with a spear ngl.

[hot hemlock]

I wouldnt say riposte as a new animation mechanic but it should technically be able to parry with its M2 animation

Might make it somewhat usable outside of being the only thing you have in stash

[wet mortar]

Zwei is great on barb, hard to use but very good if you understand it. M2 is actually only good for breaking doors, literally a useless ability.

[hot hemlock]

Hence why itd have some form of use with its unique attack pattern

[winter bison]

the 100g fee + losing your best gear in highroller makes it seem not worth doing ;/

[wet mortar]

Idk I make 300+G per run on HRGC killing troll as barb. Only investment is the 75 fee and a double axe, zweihander, or quarterstaff

[hot hemlock]

Survive one every 6 runs and you make profit still

[winter bison]

maybe solo is fine, but in hell trios you dont make it out theres always a more chad team then you and only 5 portals

[wet mortar]

high roller crypts though no point playing XD it's not even the same game literally jsut neckbeard redditors meta comping hard core

[winter bison]

not true I survived 1 and died 2, im down on gold and lost 2 purp sets

[lunar narwhal]

Remove silver coins from the game. Annoying to deal with. Hate when you find them. They have no purpose outside of trading for gold coins.

[real dew]

https://discord.com/channels/988365908009447485/1158549921880887336 Come Join The Syndicate! a Rogue only group. come and go for a trial

[winter bison]

died again, now i lost all my gear and completely broke. yay highroller

[pallid patio]

I am once again begging for a 2nd leather or cloth headgear option for Fighter

[abstract swallow]

chain armor when

[spice ether]

gear cap ? soo it wouuld split it, people would go in high roller, idk this is getting dumb

[stone marlin]

CAN WE YOU KNOW MAKE A CAP ON ARCHERS PER TEAM U KNOW 2 ARCHERS KINDA HARD TO GET CLOSE TO EVEN IF UR RUNNING A META COMP

CRAZY HOW U CAN JUST FIGHT ANY 3 CLASSES IN THE GAME AS 1 ARCHER DONT EVEN NEED A TEAM U CAN NAME IS CALL OF DARKER MODEREN WAREFARE UNTIL U FIX THE FUCKING ARCHERS LIKE THE FUCKING WARLOCK IS A PROBLEM

[toxic pulsar]

Gold coin bag and chest need to be more accessible. There is no reason they are worth more than keys lmao. Their purpose is to hold gold coins, not be the next golden keys.

[real trellis]

Maybe maybe not, all my friend was doing was jumping up and down on a wall in front of the guy

[storm totem]

delete warlock heal and nerf phantom, so he wont be immortal god mode, who destroying game, like old rogue

[hot hemlock]

play ranger and diff them

[fallen heath]

Can we get gear capped dungeons for instance if you have purple gear on you cant run normal difficulty dungeons you have to run high roller

[small furnace]

Atm they serve no purpose. Gold ingots outvalue both of them. 750g each in a stack of 5 taking up 2x2. That's 3750 for a 2x2 occupied space.

Meanwhile the chest holds 2000 coins and costs like 10 keys taking up 2x2 space. That's a 50000 gold investment to hold 2000 coins.

The gold bag holds 500 and costs around 10000 in mats. That's a 10000 gold investment to hold 500 coins.

The whole system is pointless and stupid rn. Just buy gold ingots.