im tired
#general gaming
river veldt
slim thorn
outsourcing also works best when you a) don't care that much about the game's content, so having less control over it is no big deal, and b) the company you outsource to is already experienced making this sort of thing and a license is more like a mod or skin to be applied than a premise for developing something wholly new from scratch
gaunt marten
If Nintendo licensed Mario to someone else, that someone would make a worse game than Nintendo does, AND would take a lot of the money Nintendo would have made.
river veldt
oh
slim thorn
pretty much, there's zero advantage for Nintendo to get anyone else involved
slim thorn
the core of Mario's brand is family friendly best-in-the-world platforming experiences, after all
gaunt marten
Yes. In these cases, Nintendo's inside studio was not capable of making the game Nintendo wanted
river veldt
or
slim thorn
if they stopped being so consistently good people would stop caring very quickly
gaunt marten
Or they could not spare the resources
gaunt marten
if they stopped being so consistently good people would stop caring very quickly
Damn I wish that happened, but we keep getting Sonic games
river veldt
i guess Kirby technically counts because it's developed by HAL Laboratory which is it's own independent thing
slim thorn
brand loyalty is super weird
gaunt marten
Second review: https://i.imgur.com/Qfcm8zZ.png
slim thorn
iirc Metroid's used a number of external studios but I never followed that part in detail
jinx
river veldt
soneone else did the Samus Returns remake and Dread
gaunt marten
river veldt
why does Time on Frog Island not have a picture
gaunt marten
It broke
river veldt
why did you break it
gaunt marten
It's not up to me. Steam broke it
Oh! Apparently VAT is now not calculated until you try to pay
slim thorn
huh
river veldt
i think every mainline Mario and Zelda have been developed in house
gaunt marten
The difference is not exactly 15%
slim thorn
that sounds right
gaunt marten
Why does Pathfinder cost 19.69 SR in cart but 28.07 SR in store and on sale?
slim thorn
that's probably all the big ones, most companies are lucky to have one franchise we've heard of
gaunt marten
It's because for some reason the cart price ignores the base game
river veldt
OH
the Donkey Kong Country series
1-3 were Rare and Returns and Tropical Freeze are Retro
chilly mural
gaunt marten
Looks like the new Overcooked is 50% off for owners of the previous game
The discount stacks with the current 50% sale, for a total of 75%
The bonus discount ends by the end of the spring sale.
Unfortunately at this base price it's not worth buying
gaunt marten
It's not in Chinese for me
slim thorn
it's Chinese for me
dire gate
huh
gaunt marten
I guess Discord is caching badly
dire gate
I'll just remove embed because it's a mess
dire gate
Good game, bad game, whatever, it's free.
It's a Borderlands 2 DLC sold as a standalone game, which ruined its review score, but I'll take it if it's free.
fresh bane
she went full maho shojo
I had never seen Peach with the fire flower before it looks clean
fresh bane
https://youtu.be/5lx0CRVVvV8
I had never actually played Demon's so I never knew how 'severe' the changes in the remake were, seems like there's a lot less than I anticipated but what changes there are are pretty impactful
It sounds like ridiculous nitpicking but when I think about DS1 and what would've happened if they had made changes like this in the remaster oh man 
gaunt marten
"I don't like it." is kosher.
oblique stone
Is it halal?
gaunt marten
That's the same thing
sour hill
I like the DeS remaster
thorny loom
https://youtu.be/5lx0CRVVvV8
I had never actually played Demon's so I never knew...
What I don’t like is that theres no pc port
Yikes
gaunt marten
This is great
Bug Fables with all the mystery and civilization is situated in a backyard.
The fence https://i.imgur.com/UVereNo.png
The house. It's boarded up! https://i.imgur.com/pc6YUlS.png
wind stump
IT'S MYSTIA DAY
green fulcrum
be me
playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker
finds a cave that has bones scattered around the entrance
curiosity.png
enters cave
only one enemy in the cave
it's a HUGE Tatzelwurm
"meh, I can take it"
quicksaves
runs forward
gets one-shotted
I am definitely not supposed to be here yet. 
slim thorn
reminds me of the time in Planescape where everyone kept telling me the boss of the city would lock you away in a pocket dimension for all eternity if you messed with her stuff, so I quick saved and messed with her stuff, and there was indeed a prison dimension ready for me
(there's even a way out of it but I wasn't persistent enough to discover it myself)
gaunt marten
Maze!
It's a very high level spell, and the signature spell of Sigil's Lady of Pain
Requires a very high intelligence save to escape (in 5e)
slim thorn
yep that's exactly what it was
gaunt marten
Maze is a very fun spell because the actual maze can be modified by the DM to be evocative
slim thorn
in that game your protagonist is immortal (in the infinite retries sense) so naturally I found a previous dead me inside that maze
green fulcrum
F*ck yeah! I was able to go into stealth for one of my rogue characters, and I sneaked behind the thing to see what it was hiding. There was a body behind it that had a "professor's hat", which, get this, acts as a bag of holding by giving the entire party a 200 lbs carrying capacity increase, as well as giving the wearer a +2 competency bonus to ALL skill checks.
gaunt marten
That's great. Do you know if the videogame sticks close to Pathfinder rules or uses a system more suitable for videogames? This is important for scaling reasons
green fulcrum
There was also a massive hammer that was an excellent upgrade for my barbarian.
It uses Pathfinder rules for pretty much everything.
But for leveling up it does allow you to increase certain skills like perception, athletics, etc.
gaunt marten
I would rather they bend the rules to make the videogame version more fun than they keep the rules to make the videogame more true to source
green fulcrum
I'm not a huge expert on the Pathfinder system, but from what I can tell it's pretty easy to grasp and pretty flexible for newcomers.
slim thorn
same, even RPGs that aren't copy-pasting D&D rules tend to have a bunch of at best redundant systems and choosing which ones to ignore is vital to making progress before getting bored
green fulcrum
It's not 1-to-1 the Pathfinder rules. There's several key exceptions to make the game balanced and fun for casual RPG players like myself.
gaunt marten
That's great
green fulcrum
Mostly it boils down to character skills, game/story progression, the plot, and passing skill checks that it focuses on the Pathfinder rules, which makes sense.
For example on where it doesn't apply, money is absolutely a non-issue in this game. It's alllllll over the place, and merchants have an infinite supply of it.
quiet swift
Yes and no, I did lose a 15 minute old char as i got disconnected once but the second one i started is currently fine
quiet swift
Sounds about right 
mossy flume
I remember when online was an optional function that most people didn't use in video games. 
quiet swift
Indeed 
slim thorn
I think most of what I play still fits that definition
I got lucky with most of the games following that trend also following a bunch of other stuff I'm not interested in
bleak lintel
Blizzard is chasing GaaS so it needs to be online, although we didn't need online only for horse armor DLC.
quiet swift
@mossy flume i did make a #1086298682711879680 channel too :X
slim thorn
the horse armor meme is so weird
wind stump
I mean
It was the first big cosmetic DLC
wind stump
It is.
fresh bane
What I don’t like is that theres no pc port
Yeah, to be fair most of my complaints and gripes about remakes would be mitigated a lot if companies just released a remastered port of the original game alongside the remake
on demon's case not even the original was out for PC 
Suzie's video is already out
slim thorn
did Metroid Zero Mission include NES Metroid as a bonus? or was that Metroid Prime?
slim thorn
I remember trying it for a bit but the password save system didn't work for some reason and I wasn't enjoying it enough to fight with that or single-segment it
river veldt
Justin Bailey
fresh bane
https://youtu.be/BWnbKsdL6iw
Ashley and Leon's dynamic goes to an untrusting one to a real team by the end. Ashley's overhaul will have you falling in love with her. She's not an overly confident, angry, cursing female character that we so often get nowadays.
If Suzi's the one to say this you know it's bad
damn
flint iron
https://youtu.be/BWnbKsdL6iw
All I gotta say is Leon Kennedy is pretty and Chris Redfield is hot
river veldt
bad?
fresh bane
Even though pretty much every plot line and character has been improved there is one that's undeniably worse than the original game. That unfortunately being Ada's role in the story
oof
They could be saving Ada's story for Separate Ways maybe but that sucks to hear
river veldt
im really confused
fresh bane
Oh no she's saying even the acting of Ada sounds worse than the original 
oh this sounds disappointing
flint iron
She's going to say sike right now and tell us it was a prank all along
fresh bane
Nah it really sounds like Ada's role and character is a huge downgrade unfortunately, but she's saying Ada doesn't show up enough on the story to bring down the overall quality of the game so it's still a net positive
Every other aspect and every other character sounds like they're vastly improved from the original
Shinji Mikami apparently said he wanted to make a better story for RE4 with this remake so hey
I sure hope they also flesh out Ada more in Separate Ways though
river veldt
If Suzi's the one to say this you know it's bad
im confused by what you mean by this then because the quote said it'll have you falling in love with Ashley but you said it was bad???
flint iron
I need to see gameplay of Leon running from the huge rock, if it doesn't look goofy then it's not epic enough
fresh bane
I didn't say falling in love with Ashley was bad? 
fresh bane
I need to see gameplay of Leon running from the huge rock, if it doesn't look go...
I think RE4R got rid of all those QTE events
flint iron
Nooooo
river veldt
what are you implying is bad im so confused
fresh bane
She's not an overly confident, angry, cursing female character that we so often get nowadays.
Suzi's not the type of person to call out this sort of stuff in modern media or games so if she is saying this then you know it's pretty bad
I don't know how you could've thought I was saying Ashley's overhaul was bad
slim thorn
tbh I'm also unsure what was intended but I haven't seen the video
it's basically guaranteed I'll play the remake so unless SGS starts playing it before I finish CV, I'll probably stay blind until I can play it myself
fresh bane
If you wanna go into it blind then yeah don't watch the video, it's not spoilery at all she's intentionally avoiding spoilers but it does show some stuff that might be new to you
slim thorn
still, gtk not to expect more of Ada, I was hoping for that especially after RE2 made me actually care
fresh bane
She also mentioned how similarly to Dead Space's remake there's now || backtracking in the game which otherwise wouldn't be there at all, and apparently backtracking has some unique events so that sounds very exciting ||
fresh bane
still, gtk not to expect more of Ada, I was hoping for that especially after RE2...
Yeah it seems like more likely they're saving Ada's storyline for Separate Ways but just like Suzi says in the video it's very disappointing they have to pretty much ruin her character in the main game's story
There were usually complaints back in the day that Ada was too bitchy towards Leon and like she didn't care about him but that was clearly just her persona that she had even in RE2, but from what Suzi says in the remake || it really does sound like Ada just gives no shit about Leon|| so that sounds pretty disappointing
They really set up leon and ada's relationship in RE2R and kinda drop the ball with this one
flint iron
Leon still has the shop merchant to love at least
fresh bane
He can still smooch around with Luis while Ashley's getting captured
flint iron
Epic Leon moment
fresh bane
apparently he sticks around for faaaaar longer and has a more prominent role in the story, really sounds like RE4R will be full of improvements for the story and characters 
flint iron
Theres most likely going to be knewly introduced characters too
fresh bane
Hmmmm I don't know about that but there is a confirmed new enemy type
RE4's cast is pretty limited I'd say
river veldt
is it a goomba
river veldt
wow he's scary
sour hill
on demon's case not even the original was out for PC <:abflat:907312670980587580...
At least you can emulate it
flint iron
The new enemy type will be bullying you with gimmicks
fresh bane
At least you can emulate it
This is what Silent Hill and classic RE fans have said for decades but the reality is a number of people don't have PCs or their PCs aren't good enough to emulate or they just don't wanna go through the hassle of emulating it which I totally understand, which is why so many people still go to the HD collection to this day, it's the most easily accessible digital copies of SH2 and 3, and SH1 is probably not available anywhere
At the end of the day the best way to possibly get people to experience the original is to re-release it and or remaster the original and sell it on online stores, it's not like you're going to run out of digital copies
there's literally no reason why Capcom isn't re-releasing RE1-RE2-RE3
slim thorn
This is what Silent Hill and classic RE fans have said for decades but the reali...
imagine the irony that I buy a new laptop in 2023 and finally I have the power to play video games from 1998
thorny loom
He still has to rig animations but the textures are finished
slim thorn
also, my new headcanon is that Code Veronica isn't getting a remake because... Steve
river veldt
Steve?
slim thorn
the male lead that Claire is paired with in CV has issues
river veldt
is he homophobic or something
slim thorn
well, if you want details
river veldt
dont ask me why homophobia was the first thing that came to mind i have no idea
slim thorn
at first Steve is a decent character: obnoxiously arrogant, sounds and acts like a bratty teenager, literally prevents you from solving a puzzle for a while by taking a key item he thinks looks cool, but later stuff happens and he matures significantly so that's all nice
the problem is that he's also a love interest for Claire (not a one-sided crush), which makes absolutely no fucking sense in context, and considering how young he acts feels kinda disgusting even
slim thorn
so Tale and I were doing a lot of synchronized whining about him
dapper cedar
Steve is the annoyingest
fresh bane
Steve is an annoying scummy character like Luis but without any of the charm for me
and yeah they just have to cram in some random love interest in there
slim thorn
also gold lugers are not cool, that kid needs to learn wtf nazis are
dapper cedar
There’s one aspect of CV’s story that will be much harder to do in a hypothetical remake
I won’t say but you’ll know it when you see it
fresh bane
I mean those gold lugers do look pretty badass
but I don't know if it's the type of gun you'd want to fight off zombies? 
river veldt
also gold lugers are not cool, that kid needs to learn wtf nazis are
"gold lugers"? like the gun from Borat?????
fresh bane
they seem... 'weak', I don't know much about guns
slim thorn
"gold lugers"? like the gun from Borat?????
river veldt
THE GUN FROM BORAT
slim thorn
I know nothing about Borat, to me lugers are "the" Nazi officer pistol because that's how CoD 1 worked
fresh bane
slim thorn
I mean there's a lot of gold guns in fiction
flint iron
My favorite resident evil game with a pretty bad story is operation raccoon city
Even Leon is unlikable in the game
river veldt
how
slim thorn
is that... the light gun game?
river veldt
good thing they killed off Ethan before they could make him unlikeable in a non canon spinoff 😎
river veldt
Lugers look cool but it's all about that Mauser C96 <:starlightbeam:513752431742...
Han Solo gun
flint iron
good thing they killed off Ethan before they could make him unlikeable in a non ...
Ethan with the big brain moves
fresh bane
The only thing that's good about Operation Raccoon city are the character designs
slim thorn
in retrospect I find it funny that back when I played the original RE2, and I got to the eagle and wolf medal keys in the sewer, I said something to Tale like "isn't this two games in a row that Umbrella used these animals? I'm probably reading way too much into it but that choice feels almost fascist"
then I played RE0 and RE:CV
river veldt
is Umbrella fascist
slim thorn
extremely
river veldt
oh
fresh bane
Honestly that never crossed my mind
slim thorn
it's just mostly absent from RE1-3
river veldt
listen ive only played/watched RE4, 7, and 8
slim thorn
yeah parts of the lore really depend on which games you played
river veldt
does RE4 even mention Umbrella
fresh bane
Yes?
flint iron
The only thing that's good about Operation Raccoon city are the character design...
Yeh agreed + Hunk has a role in the game so thats neat
fresh bane
Like right at the start too
river veldt
Yes? <:ppenk:681838745611141137>
it's been like 2 years since i played it
river veldt
Yeh agreed + Hunk has a role in the game so thats neat
the guy in the front looks like a combine
fresh bane
Yeh agreed + Hunk has a role in the game so thats neat
Hunk needs to come back
Hope he's there for mercenaries
flint iron
The guy in the front is hunk
flint iron
Hope he's there for mercenaries
Almost forgot about mercenaries
fresh bane
Mercenaries better be there Capcom 
Carlos' mechanics really seem like a test for characters like Krauser and Wesker
Oh and speaking of Wesker
flint iron
I will be playing as wesker immediately
fresh bane
also Mercenaries Ada looks AMAZING and I kinda like it more than her regular original dress
her new RE4R design resembles her RE6 design a lot
flint iron
Oh wow it does
flint iron
https://youtu.be/nf1WHNaxHTE
Unless the remake has it in the game, Im hoping the modding community makes this doable
fresh bane
there's already pleeeenty mods for the demo of RE4R and DMC5 had a bunch of gameplay altering mods so yeah they'll definitely make this a thing if Wesker or Ada are playable in the slightest
fresh bane
slim thorn
the Raiden bit at the end is definitely my favorite
fresh bane
The song should be Rules of Nature not It Has To Be This Way
that's the song that plays during the Ray boss fight
man speaking about so much RE is making me wanna replay RE1-RE3 and Signalis now
river veldt
i absolutely thought this was Phoenix Wright
flint iron
Phoneix wright is in the game
river veldt
oh
flint iron
great now there's two of them
I also cant unsee dante being leon with white hair dye now
river veldt
does Leon have a soul patch
flint iron
He has a powerful lip shadow
fresh bane
Dante and Leon are ironically both wacky wooho characters who are secretly suffering from some deep trauma
the only difference is Leon became an alcoholic Dante just eats pizza and strawberry sundaes
and he still has a six pack... those demon genes are working overtime
flint iron
I choose the Dante route
Leon's got to have a six pack too
He didnt get a beer belly yet
fresh bane
He probably has a worse physique than RE4 Leon but still better than most people due to his military training
Chris went from a young little guy who can lift to strongman physique that can bench press boulders
flint iron
and in re7 chris went back to a young little guy who can lift for a bit
fresh bane
jesus I completely forgot about the extreme redesign for 7
I get what they were going for because he looks exactly like RE1 Chris but they had already super changed his look for 5 and 6 and that's what Chris looked like for a long time
RE8 Chris is probably my favourite
Look at that large man
flint iron
Yeah, everyone I watched who played re7 didnt recognize it was chris until he told you himself and some thought he was some type of amogus imposter chris
flint iron
RE8 Chris is probably my favourite
Boulder shoulders to destory mountains
Chris honestly had to be that buff to fight someone like Wesker
fresh bane
I don't know anything about RE5 other than that wesker fight and I still can't believe Chris and Sheva didn't immediately get killed
flint iron
Wesker had a umbrellion amount of times he could've won in that one scene
slim thorn
mm-hmm, RE normally relies on the superhumanly strong creatures also being slower or less nimble so beating them still makes sense
when the enemy is this powerful compared to you, the only explanation is they weren't really trying (which can work, but requires... let's face it, more nuanced writing than RE is usually aiming for)
flint iron
The only thing I can back Wesker not beating them is that he has to monologue for his ego, but I feel like he still wouldn't do the actions he did in that scene if it wasnt for the protagonists having to win
thorny loom
New Ark 2 Concept (Spoder warning)
mossy flume
Spooder fren
fresh bane
green fulcrum
.......F`ck. Kingmaker has "damned if you do, damned if you don't" choices, where if you choose one path someone will die, and if you choose another path the other person will die. Problem is both NPCs are very good and both of them are necessary advisors to my kingdom, but one just so happens to be my main community advisor who I NEED.
And apparently the only way to save them both is if you have a lawful alignment (either neutral, good, or evil, but it has to be lawful), which I don't really like.
slim thorn
apparently I misremembered which chapter Alma was in
but that's the Bone Dragon defeated so I'm calling that my stopping point for now
hidden elbow
So I finished Halo combat evolved and it was really nice ,a bit repetitive but thanks to nice combat and interesting enemys ,I think I like it a bit more than HL 1
weak river
Congratulations on finishing it, and I'm glad that you enjoyed it.
I think that Combat Evolved still holds up relatively well today, all things considered. There are still times even nowadays where I feel like starting it up and playing it again.
I would agree with the repetitiveness issue, though, especially on particular levels (cough cough The Library cough cough).
slim thorn
fwiw, my dad and I strongly agree that The Library overstays its welcome , at least on the harder difficulties
Halo 1/CE is still my personal favorite of the Halos, probably because I'm the type that prefers relatively few high-quality weapons/mechanics/enemies I can keep practicing on, compared to what it feels like most shooters and players are looking for (especially from a sequel)
it's a very small margin though, and every time I play 1-4 I miss the mobility options of 5
I feel like every great shooter has a repetitive part or two somewhere, maybe it's just because the reality of shooter design is that it's easier to err on the side of more good content, especially when it's relatively easy to add another room or another wave of enemies once the core gameplay loop solidifies
random steppe
my dad and I strongly agree that The Library overstays its welcome
Why is that wording so funny to me in the context of a gaming conversation.
slim thorn
no one expects a boomer to have played Halo? 
random steppe
I know you didn't intend it that way, but it half sounds like you are using your dad to strenghten your argument which is funny in context
gaunt marten
My dad would beat up Master Chief
slim thorn
I mean, he is an extra person
yeah it probably recalls all those schoolyard arguments where one invokes parents as the supreme arbiters of life
river veldt
My dad would beat up Master Chief
Master Chief could beat up my dad
gaunt marten
Yes but he wouldn't
However my dad doesn't have any qualms about beating up Master Chief
oblique stone
Why would anyone want to beat up Master Chief?
dense crypt
Show of strength
gaunt marten
Well my father is dead and that impacts his decision making skills
slim thorn
maybe Flitter lives on one of those rebel colony planets /s
weak river
Why would anyone want to beat up Master Chief?
I mean, the Covenant seemed pretty upset after Installation 04
hidden elbow
Congratulations on finishing it, and I'm glad that you enjoyed it.
I think that...
The library was really hard at first ,but then it just became.....boring
Like no transport ,no interesting enemy behavior ,just 4 floors of cleaning up the flood
The final level was awesome ,especially when the music kicked in ,god damn that was badass
light gate
Damn, these visuals really look good for a console of this age.
weak river
The final level was awesome ,especially when the music kicked in ,god damn that ...
Ha. Yeah, that warthog run is iconic.
...probably would have been cooler for me if I wasn't a terrible space driver that flipped the warthog over once every 30 seconds
hidden elbow
Ha. Yeah, that warthog run is iconic.
...probably would have been cooler for me...
Heh ,I am still a king of bumping in every possible wall
slim thorn
Damn, these visuals really look good for a console of this age.
<insert your favorite "good art direction always beats graphical fidelity" lecture>
light gate
Its a hard thing to do to be honest.
river veldt
games like Metroid Prime Remastered really show that Pokémon Scarlet and Violet had no excuse 
light gate
I am finding the game darker than usual though, and it doesn’t have a brightness slider from what I can see.
visual hill
games like Metroid Prime Remastered really show that Pokémon Scarlet and Violet ...
Metroid Prime has a much smaller scale and scope for its levels, it's not a fair comparison
PSV could have turned out much better, but it's not reasonably feasible to have the same level of polish for both games
slim thorn
true, the Primes are also happy to just let a door stay closed for several seconds if it's behind on loading stuff
perhaps the better complaint is stop open worlding all of the things plz
mossy flume
Indeed. On the GameCube the door to the artifact temple would often take 2-5 seconds to open.
gaunt marten
But Pokemon games were always open worldish since the start
slim thorn
or at least stick to the open hub with dungeons model, like most Zeldas, Okami, some Sly Coopers, some Deus Exs...
mossy flume
Mass Effect did a good job of this too
gaunt marten
Yeah
mossy flume
We need more Mass Effect style RPGs and games in general.
slim thorn
man I remember none of ME's level design 
mossy flume
Open hubs with mission levels that are pretty linear but carefully designed to not feel too linear
slim thorn
or, you know, be actually fun, and stop obsessing over what "linear" means 
mossy flume
Yep
It’s good level design IMO because it subtly guides you through it
Sometimes there’s backtracking, but not too often
slim thorn
I have actually lost track of what anyone thinks "linear" means any more
is Dead Space "linear"? is Metroid Prime?
visual hill
linear means you have little agency in which ways you can take in a level
there may be the occasional secret area but that's it
no large optional areas you can miss, etc
Half-Life 2 is super linear but people love it
mossy flume
In this context I strictly mean the idea of a level taking you from point A to point B on either a straight or a winding path where you can’t divert from.
visual hill
the most disliked part of HL1 is the least linear one.
mossy flume
Mass Effect has situations where you can choose how you get to point B like the planet exploration levels being an open plane, but those don’t count as linear by that definition. You can choose your destination and how you get there.
To be clear I’m not saying linear is bad in this context
It’s just a design approach
And it can be done very very well
slim thorn
sure, but even Metroidvanias usually have a sequence of A, B, C, rooms to go to, with only one or maybe two actual paths to those progression rooms, ignoring backtracking and secrets
mossy flume
IMO Mass Effect is an excellent example of it being done well
Yeah, then that changes the definition of what’s being talked about. I’m just talking about an individual level/individual quest standpoint. Metroidvanias being linear in their progression sequence is a different thing.
Which yeah, that’s a thing, but also another one of those things that I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing. I would expect, in general, games to have a linear progression sequence like that.
BotW is a counterexample where you can choose in what order you go through the story
slim thorn
right, I don't think there's any definition of "linear" that was ever bad design, even though people keep using it as a pejorative
dire gate
Even BotW can be considered somewhat linear because it only has one main story path
mossy flume
This is just personal conjecture, but I think when people say linear in a pejorative sense they mean it more literally, as in the level design was fairly literally a straight line from A to B with minimal to no winding of the path.
dire gate
It's not like you have any other choice than beating Ganon
gaunt marten
Linearity itself is not bad, but it reduces agency, and without a minimum level of agency you might just be better off making a movie
mossy flume
Even BotW can be considered somewhat linear because it only has one main story p...
Well yeah, but at that point you’re basically reframing the definition of linear to be “any game that has an end goal”
dire gate
an end goal yes
Because there are games with multiple end goals
BotW is the case where it diverges significantly and then converge in the end
But the final point is always the exact same
slim thorn
part of my confusion is that I can't recall ever playing a game that was a level shaped like a literal straight line (for any significant length of time)
slim thorn
I have not and what I heard sounded like there had to be a meme hyperbole component to it
gaunt marten
The game opens up near the end, and it's pretty good even despite the linearity
But from personal experience I can tell you it's the game I remember the most for how linear it is
It is all hallway after hallway after hallway
mossy flume
I’ve only played the beginning of FF13 but that sequence is indeed literally a straight line
slim thorn
interesting
dire gate
Linearity is interesting
Like, let's say, Detroit Become Human
It's extremely diverging, but yet most of the gameplay is just following through the path while making some choices
Meanwhile BotW converges exactly to one single ending, but the path is too diverse that almost no player will have the same experience
slim thorn
yeah, almost every "non-linear" game is really "multi-linear"
you cannot escape the line
mossy flume
Linecon is forever
dire gate
The true nonlinear experience some people want will be only achieved by using highly advanced AI and basically simulate the world
Remove the story
Only the action and consequences exist
gaunt marten
Or you can play Minecraft and ignore the ending
dire gate
So there is literally no path at all
river veldt
Primer <3
mossy flume
Minecraft has an ending?
dire gate
Yes
weak river
I think that one of the primary sources of confusion is that "linear" doesn't have a single definition in this context.
Does it mean linearity of gameplay? Level design? Story? Because the way you define the term "linear" can completely change whether or not a particular game is considered linear.
river veldt
yes???
slim thorn
defeating the Ender Dragon has always been the "end", yes
dire gate
They show you the credit
gaunt marten
It gives you credits and an ending blurp and it's literally called the end
river veldt
i always liked the End Poem
visual hill
speedrunners care a lot about the ending
river veldt
it resonates with me a lot
gaunt marten
Of course it's a loose ending so it's no big deal if you ignore it
visual hill
if there was no ending, speedrunning the game would be a lot more arbitrary
mossy flume
Huh. I beat the ender dragon once and recall getting the credits, but I don’t remember any sort of ending blurb
It was just “okay that’s done, back to mining”
gaunt marten
It's the weird ass poem
river veldt
i love the poem
dire gate
The real linearity = Super Mario Bros.
mossy flume
I only did that 11 years ago, so I wouldn’t remember it
river veldt
copypasta
dire gate
A lot of older games have the "true linearity"
mossy flume
???? That was definitely not in the version of Minecraft I played
dire gate
Where it is just straightforward one way one ending
gaunt marten
It may have been newer than that version
river veldt
it's been in the game since 1.0
dire gate
The poem and the credits last for a total of 62 minutes 42 seconds unaccelerated.[verify] The poem lasts 7 minutes and 42 seconds, and the credits last the remaining 55 minutes.
I think you probably skipped the entire thing
mossy flume
Maybe.
visual hill
end poem was added in 1.0 indeed, there's even a full story on how it was made (and how cheap Notch was about it :P)
dire gate
The poem happens before the credit iirc
mossy flume
It’s likely that I immediately skipped the credits.
Since I was playing multiplayer with friends
weak river
The real linearity = Super Mario Bros.
Depending on how we define linear, this isn't even necessarily true because of the existence of warp zones and warp pipes.
...I think my brain is too small for this
dire gate
https://theeggandtherock.substack.com/p/i-wrote-a-story-for-a-friend
I feel like "liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft" is villainizing MS too much
lol
visual hill
well, it's "true" in the sense that he dedicated the poem to the public domain
whether that would hold up in court or not is another question though 🙂
mossy flume
if there was no ending, speedrunning the game would be a lot more arbitrary
See that's the thing, until a few minutes ago I was under the impression that Minecraft speedruns were entirely arbitrary.
Because arbitrary speedruns are very much a thing
Like "Let's speedrun Destiny" or "Let's speedrun WoW!"
slim thorn
well, they all are arbitrary at some point, that's why they all end up with multiple categories
and debates over which glitches or hardware to allow
river veldt
https://theeggandtherock.substack.com/p/i-wrote-a-story-for-a-friend
this was a very good read thank you for sharing it :)
visual hill
you're welcome 
hushed onyx
This is just personal conjecture, but I think when people say linear in a pejora...
I don't think that's entirely the case, and I think a lot of the criticism of "linearity" comes in as people start expecting to play games for very lengthy periods of time and to be able to replay games possibly multiple times. Because of this, I think people started wanting to have options to do things other than just do the same things again with maybe some changes to how it plays out (potentially quite significant ones, e.g. evil versus good paths, but still variations on the same things). Thus, nonlinearity. On a pitch level nonlinearity sounds great after all.
(Then again so does linearity)
dire gate
Huh
I thought the case was basically
"I wanna do this!"
(Game does not allow it)
"This game is too linear!"
hushed onyx
Well, yeah, that's basically what I was saying. Only, people are more likely to experience that if they expect to play the game for 100s of hours or replay it dozens of times.
Oh, and I just thought of an excellent example of a highly linear level, from Mass Effect funnily enough given the earlier discussion: Therum, where you rescue Liara. You land at one point and drive to the other end of the path, then go into a dungeon and fight a little more before picking up Liara. It sure looks nice, but it's linear as hell.
Virmire is similar, but offers a bit more player choice. Therum has none whatsoever.
It's interesting, because Liara was originally supposed to be found on a different planet that would have been more like Feros or Noveria--still mostly linear, but with a number of side quests and variety of ways to attack the line.
fresh bane
Megaman Legends is probably the only Megaman game I've wanted to play for a while and it's only because of Tron Bonne
gaunt marten
Megaman Legends is great
The Misadventures of Tron Bonne and Megaman Legends is a fun pairing
fresh bane
I'll have to look into playing the series someday, I think the style is amazing
super unique style
Works super good for PS1's low poly visuals without looking ugly or like it's clearly lacking in detail, it's genius
gaunt marten
And it can be enhanced quite well with Duckstation or similar software
Legends 1 is kinda rough gameplay wise, but it's still fun
2 is really nice
visual hill
heh, I was talking about PSX visuals on another server just one hour ago
fresh bane
If I ever do play this it will be my first Megaman game so I hope I don't get too confused
visual hill
I'm playing GT4 via PCSX2 right now, I took my save from my older PC back when achievements support wasn't a thing yet
but it is now… what a time to be alive
river veldt
i tried playing the original Mega Man and didnt like it very much
visual hill
I have yet to play a game on a console older than 5th gen
I've never owned a SNES or anything of that caliber, my first console was a PS1
gaunt marten
MegaMan Legends is very different from most Megaman games
fresh bane
The original Mega Man games aren't the best to start with I hear, it's like starting with original Metroid 1 or 2, yes they're good games but to modern audiences they're not appealing or play that well
Mega Man X is a better starting point
Just like Metroid Zero Mission and Metroid 2 remake for 3DS are the best starting points
gaunt marten
Legends is not comparable to any before or since.
fresh bane
I've seen a little bit from the gameplay and considering it looks like a TPS I assume it's pretty different from the 'main' games
gaunt marten
Yeah. You walk around a 3D world, delve into underground dungeons and strafe fight enemies
chilly mural
If I ever do play this it will be my first Megaman game so I hope I don't get to...
you'll be fine
flint iron
Megaman X series was my personal favorite to play
white phoenix
but it is now… what a time to be alive <:rdwut:399725074204065802>
omg gt4, my first video game
the graphics still absolutely hold up
flint iron
is X the SNES
Yeh
chilly mural
The original Mega Man games aren't the best to start with I hear, it's like star...
it's fine to play Mega Man 9 or Mega Man 2 or 3, the original is super jank and 2 fixes things that most mega man games do going forward, Mega Man 9 is a fun and challenging game on it's own and doesn't need any playthrough of previous Mega man games
visual hill
the graphics still absolutely hold up
hey look, it has a Kirin ad
🍺
chilly mural
🍹
hasty patio
rancid herald
nice
true maple
just tried out project zomboid for the first time
this game is fucking hard
there's so much i want to do but i haven't got a chance yet because i can never get a fucking breather
hasty patio
That's part of the game. Only the poster child for EA for almost a decade that hits a lot of the meme game description marks.
light gate
Aaaahh, this is so cool lookin. 
slim thorn
"good level design" is hard to define, but I like to think that a litmus test for the best design is "every room in the map is instantly recognizable"
gaunt marten
Hi.
Yes, I agree, but my own definition for the best design is "When you can't take away one or more rooms without negatively impacting the quality of the game."
Whether people remember them is not as important. One such room is the thin sewer hallway leading from the Undead Parish back to Firelink Shrine. It's just a room that exists to serve as a loading screen obfuscator, but it works great to tie the areas together. It has a merchant, a unique encounter, and an unusual nature.
slim thorn
ah, I tend to apply that logic to gameplay mechanics; if the core formula's solid enough then usually more good rooms is often just an equally good game that lasts even longer
gaunt marten
Yeah, that works too.
slim thorn
(well, that and a game with too many mechanics is far more common than a game with too many levels/rooms)
gaunt marten
I tend to like games that have randomly generated maps, or games where the levels are not a strong focus, so I have a hard time coming up with non-metroidvania examples
Oh yeah, Shovel Knight!
It's a great example of a game where most rooms can't be taken away without a redesign of the whole level
slim thorn
that one I actually don't get
it's true that just deleting a random room would usually leave the adjacent rooms with entrances/exits that don't connect cleanly, but that's not hard to adjust
gaunt marten
Well, let me give you an example, starting with the beginning of Flying Machine
slim thorn
(not that I would delete any, mostly because each level is about the right length and that takes a certain number of rooms; the one change I would make is fewer insta-kill hazards)
gaunt marten
The level starts with this screen, https://i.imgur.com/2O9Vomx.png where you have to pogo off the jellyfish. It's at the start of the level, which minimizes consequences of failing, but teaches you the themes of the level: Timing, verticality, and the constant risk of falling.
Then you come into this screen https://i.imgur.com/UwDT7PP.png where the platforms don't need to be timed as strictly, but they're a little harder. If you fail and panic, you will fall into the previous screen, where it's very easy to accidentally pogo back into safety on top of the jellyfish and recover.
The rest of the level and the game follow similar games, where they reinforce the previous screens' training, while making it relatively forgiving to make mistakes, and slowly introducing new complications.
This design strategy makes it so that if you take one screen away, you have to go through all the other ones to make sure they still flow together.
The exceptions tend to be the secret rooms and the relic rooms, which might be a bit self contained at first, but in the case of relic rooms you can find new uses for the relics in future screens
slim thorn
gaunt marten
Other platformers, especially precision platformers like Wings of Vi, https://store.steampowered.com/app/318530/Wings_of_Vi/
Don't do this as often. Instead they let you retry each screen repeatedly and quickly until you learn it, and focus on stuffing as many interesting screens into each level as is reasonable
This makes them less accessible, as they don't follow Mario style "Teach the player by making it easy to accidentally succeed." game design, but also makes them more desirable to people who have a lot of experience with platformers
slim thorn
fair, I wasn't thinking about this during Shovel Knight likely because I've done enough platformers before that I knew most of the concepts
gaunt marten
That makes sense
slim thorn
except for the times I was in a death loop far enough after a checkpoint to be obnoxious
arctic fern
https://twitter.com/Bulbapedia/status/1637302877889888257
i know the conversation's long since moved on from this topic but sapphire has a special place in my heart. its till my fave pokerman game
part of that is because my brother lent my copy to a friend of his, who promptly lost it
he then paid my brother the money to buy a new copy, which is fair enough
mr bro used that money, which, as a reminder, he got because his friend lost my copy of sapphire, to buy himself a copy of ruby
brothers. not even once.
arctic fern
i got a copy of alpha sapphire, and had a great time with it. but then i lost it in my last place, when i was staying with room mates. i moved out before they did unfortunately.
but when they were moving out, they found al my old DS games, including my copy of sapphire, and rather than letting me know about that, they decided to just take them!
one of them actually told me about it, but not before one of the others had already nicked my copy of alpha sapphire...
the game is cursed.
proud warren
that game got personal bad juju for some reason 
arctic fern
yep
alpha sapphire i was even more attached too, i'd specifically gone and found a ralts in that patch of grass that kid wally finds one in, named it "fuck you wally" and trained it to be my main pokemon
proud warren
I haven't owned a proper Pokémon instalment (spin-offs I don't count) in like, 15 years
arctic fern
i'd ven turned my mudkip into a HM slave, just because i could
proud warren
I haven't owned a proper Pokémon instalment (spin-offs I don't count) in like, 1...
however, I've been emulating a decent amount of roms as of late
fresh bane
Whether people remember them is not as important. One such room is the thin sewe...
This reminds me of one of my favourite little fun facts about Dark Souls 1's cut content
Originally Firelink Shrine had a bridge in front of the bonfire that connected to the hallway in the lower undead burg leading right into the depths, this bridge is still visible from the 'fake' miniature Firelink that you can see from Blighttown if you look up, for whatever reason that little miniature Firelink still has the bridge
It's not really that well known why it was cut, the doorway leading into that shortcut is still there in the game, just out of bounds
gaunt marten
I remember that
fresh bane
It probably was a unnecessary shortcut, and it's not exactly a super important area, however the fact that it connects to both the depths and the higher undead burg gives an interesting choice to the player of how they want to proceed (if they wanna go for the first or second bell of awakening)
I think it would've been an interesting way to do things
gaunt marten
Would have been neat to have it
fresh bane
It's very evident based on the out of bounds discoveries outside the Kiln of the First Flame that they probably ran out of time and money at the latter half of the development so they had to scrap ideas and just wrap things up already, same as DS2 which pretty much scrapped almost everything
It's super sad and I always wished for a DS1/DS2 remake that implemented all the cut ideas they couldn't add due to time and money
Having the Kiln of the First Flame be an actual physical location you can walk into would've been a magical moment
slim thorn
considering how successful they've been since, one wonders why they haven't
gaunt marten
DS2 was made by the B-team on a limited budget
slim thorn
or if all the cut stuff is basically in one of the other games now
fresh bane
No idea, DS2 got a re-release/remaster in the form of SOFTFS and DS1 got a ''remaster'' (in quotations because to some it was worse than the OG) but neither got a proper remake that really made each game the ultimate version it could be
DS3 is the only one that had the least amount of issues during development and was relatively complete
slim thorn
remakes/masters/special editions that people like less than the original always baffle me
fresh bane
There's a bunch of videos explaining the whole Dark Souls Remastered situation I remember watching but it was years ago
DS2 is also a special case where a lot of people think the original is way better because the rerelease changes a lot of things
like enemy placements, item drops etc
river veldt
Link's Awakening Remake is objectively better than the original (which was already a very good game) because you dont have to deal with a lot of the Gameboy's limitations (only 2 buttons)
slim thorn
I also ran into this with Ninja Gaiden since only the later Sigma version is available on PC (so that's what I'm playing) but most people who can play both seem to think the original Black version was better or that it's a toss-up
fresh bane
Demon's Souls is also another one that suffers from this and I remember sharing a video about it not too long ago
The changes Demon's makes aren't super obvious or apparent at first glance but when you stop to think about it they're pretty significant changes even though most of the game is super 1:1, it's... different, and in some places a bit worse
I remember reading a comment that said most people would brush these off as nitpicks but if they were to remake Bloodborne and make significant changes to pieces or worldbuilding, lore, designs etc people would lose their minds
river veldt
the Super Mario 3D World port for the Switch is also better than the WiiU version because the characters are faster and also it has Bowser's Fury :3
fresh bane
I always think when possible the original dev team should be either involved in a remaster/remake or at least supervise the development it's the best way to ensure it will be the best version of that game, kind of like RE4R is shaping up to be
slim thorn
I doubt anyone would dispute that lol
gaunt marten
But I love disputing things
slim thorn
https://youtu.be/5lx0CRVVvV8
I had never actually played Demon's so I never knew...
^ this?
river veldt
i dispute that you like disputing things
fresh bane
^ this?
Yeah
It's actually not a bad video
It may seem like stupid small nitpicks but small stuff really adds up, plus with Fromsoft games the little details always matter a ton and are super deliberate
slim thorn
would you post a bad video?
fresh bane
I can be wrong sometimes
only sometimes /s
these are some of the videos I remember seeing about DSR
not the best thumbnails or titles I'll admit that much
I haven't seen them in forever but I remember a lot of the general criticism for DSR is that it barely changed anything and sometimes looked worse than the original
So pretty much any glitches and bugs still there, sometimes there were new glitches and bugs, visuals look alright but not good enough for a remastered and sometimes visuals could look worse than the original game, I think the only thing they actually changed was PVP/co-op with password systems and stuff like that for online? But it didn't matter that much because the game barely worked and it ended up dying shortly after anyways
So it was extremely underwhelming for a remaster
random steppe
To my knowledge it is the defacto version people play the game on now.
It wasn't an especially impressive remaster but I don't think it was ever trying to be, it was mostly a minor touch up.
I would rather play it than the shitshow that Prepare to Die edition was, that's for sure
fresh bane
Not a super high bar tbh
random steppe
It is still the better version of the game.
I agree it could have been better, but also I do feel that after Schola of the First Sin which had mixed bags of changes, they probably were a bit wary of doing big changes, especially to the game that was their break into the market
I can only imagine the pitchforks if they changed more, and people didn't like the changes
slim thorn
tbh the argument in that Demon Souls video was way more straightforward than I was expecting
like, five minutes in there's a dev quote saying what's special about the original is just gameplay, with no mention of the environmental storytelling
random steppe
I did not play the remaster or the original, so I can't speak to that, but a clip of a dev giving an interview sounds a bit flimsy as a way to point out at the focus of the whole development process.
slim thorn
I mean it's a half hour video because it provides tons of concrete examples to back that up
random steppe
I might be biased because I really don't like that youtuber
slim thorn
ah, they're new to me
random steppe
Not for any real reason, it's mostly just a personal bias
They aren't bad or anything, I just personally find them a bit grating for whatever reason
slim thorn
anyway, what I was saying is that the basic argument of "redesigning all the environments in a Soulslike without considering the lore implied by their original design leads to a less interesting world" is just kind of a "well duh" to me
in contrast to all of that "I know it sounds like nitpicking but" hedging that was going on earlier
random steppe
That's very possible, I'll see if it ever comes to PC
Well actually probably I wouldn't spot the difference, having never played Demon's Souls
slim thorn
it'd be like if Hollow Knight had a remake where the abyss no longer had a pile of vessels at the bottom, but some super hi-rez awesome looking void monsters with no relevance to the story
random steppe
Makes sense
slim thorn
or if the dark, quiet room with the Pale King's body was replaced by some Omega Kingsmold boss fight
it's weird how fascinating these games are despite being so unplayable for me
random steppe
I should probably try to push through my dislike and watch the video sometimes, I kind of doubt it'd be that egregious because if it was I feel like I'd heard from that perspective much earlier, while the general consensus was that the remake was pretty faithful for a long while
slim thorn
huh
random steppe
Smaller things could 100% have been overlooked and that I could definitely believe
fresh bane
like, five minutes in there's a dev quote saying what's special about the origin...
Right, it's something that surprised me a lot, which basically indicates to me all the changes they made were very deliberate stylistic choices/changes and not just upgrading what was already there
fresh bane
It is still the better version of the game.
I agree it could have been better, b...
I don't think it's the best version but I may be biased since I only own PTDE
fresh bane
Well actually probably I wouldn't spot the difference, having never played Demon...
And that's honestly a problem for me which is why I'm extremely conservative about remakes doing drastic changes or departure from the original
That same video put it pretty well with the example of the color theory in DeS
slim thorn
RE2 was so much better with OTS camera though 
fresh bane
slim thorn
Metroid has an insanely good track record with remakes though
even RE had a low point at 3
fresh bane
Don't remind me
I am now an RE3 fanboy after playing the original
They rushed the hell out of RE3R and another team developed it
slim thorn
but I wonder what's different about these situations where you never hear anyone say "NES Metroid had better combat" or whatever
fresh bane
Eeh there's probably people like that
slim thorn
somewhere, probably, but you never hear it
fresh bane
The thing about Metroid is unlike RE they didn't completely change how the games work
They only improved the mechanics to the point Dread is straight up gameplay wise the best Metroid out there
It's smooth as butter to play in comparison to even Metroid 2 Remake
slim thorn
right, but these aren't strictly objective factual things
if they were there wouldn't be such a range of opinions on the RE2 remake (afaict no one disputes that it's good, but whether it's better gets way more complicated)
fresh bane
How come? Metroid has only improved the gameplay with each entry, I don't think anyone could say Metroid Fusion or Super are better mechanically than Dread
slim thorn
that's the question I'm asking
fresh bane
If anyone were to say Super and Fusion have better atmosphere or better storyline (pff) or better music oe whatever then yeah that's subjective
Kind of like it's undeniable that RE1R is better mechanically than OG RE1
Straight up just improvements there
~~which is what RE2 and 3 should have been ~~
slim thorn
I don't think "why is there such a consensus on X and not Y?" can really be answered with "because X is just obviously true"
river veldt
i watched a little bit of Vinny playing RE2R and it seemed pretty cool to me
slim thorn
especially since we've got this perfect contradictory example of a remake that I genuinely think was an improvement in every way after playing both back to back for the first time, and you strongly disagree
fresh bane
Well it's not exactly a good comparison to make because unlike RE1, RE2 completely changes how the game works
slim thorn
we disagree on that too
river veldt
fedora man is scary
fresh bane
It's a lot easier to say RE1R is better than RE1 because it's a 1:1 recreation but better, RE2R is very different from og RE2
river veldt
or is it a trillby
slim thorn
even the video you just linked on Demon Souls is an example of people disagreeing on what the core of a game is, the "how the game works" that must be preserved to be the same game
and it's obvious that we disagree on whether camera/shooting controls are part of that core in RE2
right, there's no mystery with RE1 or Dead Space because those are so exceptionally similar
but the Metroid remakes were not that similar to their originals
fresh bane
Ehh weren't they? I didn't play OG M1 or 2,but I'd say the core gameplay loop and mechanics are the exact same, it's not like they're making the game a FPS like Prime it's still a 2D metroid like the originals
slim thorn
sure, but the Demon Souls remake also has the same core gameplay loop
this is just illustrating what I mean about this all being subjective and non-obvious
hushed onyx
The only Remastered game that I think I've played is Homeworld's remaster, which did have some gameplay changes because they switched to the HW2 engine.
fresh bane
I don't remember saying Demons worked differently
Most of the Demon changes seem to be artistic rather than gameplay or mechanics
slim thorn
you didn't, I'm saying none of these suggested explanations fits all the examples presented
fresh bane
I'm not really sure what's being argued at this point 
slim thorn
yeah I'm basically repeating myself now so it's clear there's something I can't break through with mere words so i'll just watch some other videos instead
hushed onyx
Besides the subtle change that projectiles worked on a percentage/dice rather than a physical/projection system (i.e., instead of generating a bullet when a gun is fired and it flies into space, the game rolls a dice for whether the bullet hits and then animates it appropriately), the toughness of the different ships was rather dramatically changed--frigates in particular (sort of your "line" warship, making up most of your fleet) became substantially more fragile.
fresh bane
My main point in this discussion, I think, is that RE2R changes a lot how the game works in comparison to RE2
Yes the main gameplay loop is not too different, explore, shoot zombie, solve puzzle, gather items, but the mechanics of the game are simply undoubtedly different, the game being a TPS changes a lot
Therefore that drastic change in mechanics makes it very hard to determine whether RE2R is an improvement mechanically over the original
hushed onyx
Annoyingly (for me) they didn't implement the change that I liked the most from HW2, which is that strike craft (space fighters) came in squadrons instead of individual ships, because other people didn't like it.
fresh bane
As we've seen with RE1R, you CAN improve on that classic survival horror formula, maintaining that classic survival horror gameplay style without completely changing it for something else entirely
And yes Dead Space is also a similar comparison it's a fantastic remake of the original
slim thorn
to be clear I wasn't trying to debate the RE2 remake point, I was merely presenting it as an example of where we disagree, with the unstated assumption that this is not something we could ever talk ourselves into agreeing on
river veldt
i dont think there's been a Mario remake oh wait i guess the Super Mario Advance series and Super Mario All Stars are remakes
slim thorn
actually debating that seems about as pointless as re-debating whether or not Fromsoft games are any fun
fresh bane
Ah well if you disagree with me in the point that RE2R did not improve RE2 mechanics and instead completely changed them for something else then yes we disagree heavily on that
slim thorn
...was that not clear?
hushed onyx
I guess I'd play a SMAC remaster if Firaxis did one, but..."press X to doubt". The closest they came to that was Beyond Earth, but that was really quite a dramatically different game that was only trying to be a "remaster" in the broadest imaginable sense, in that it had a similar setting and some similar gameplay elements because it's still a Civilization-based game...
Oh, well, there's Mass Effect Legendary Edition. I guess that counts too.
river veldt
there are quite a few Zelda remasters like Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD and Skyward Sword HD and those are all cool
fresh bane
At least to me it wasn't it seemed like you were trying to find some common ground and trying to find out for sure which is why I explained myself
slim thorn
well I guess I wouldn't phrase it quite that way but I do think the OTS camera/TPS mechanics were a strict improvement
fresh bane
Yeah I disagree on that personally
slim thorn
yeah that was not even the category of question I was attempting to ask, much less debate
river veldt
i think OTS is better than fixed camera tbh
hushed onyx
Legendary Edition is pretty clearly a light touch remaster, ME1 gets some bigger changes but it's nothing like as drastic as completely redoing how gameplay works to match the ME2/3 system like they could have done (I guess that would be more remake territory)
fresh bane
I don't think an OTS perspective is improving a fixed camera game because I don't think fixed camera is a bad system and can be easily improved without changing it entirely
slim thorn
yeah you're doing that again, reading arguments into my words that were never there
I don't think fixed camera is a bad thing inherently
hushed onyx
Most people actually like ME2/ME3's system better than ME1's, so this actually probably would have been a fairly popular change even though it would substantially change how the game would play.
hushed onyx
(Personally I like parts of all of them better than corresponding parts in the others, actually--the distinctiveness of the guns in ME2/3 was much better than how in ME1 they only differed in numbers, yet the heat-based system from ME1 was very unique and interesting, for instance. Note that one of the most substantial changes made was to make the guns in ME1 a bit more distinct...)
fresh bane
I can't give an opinion on that personally since I didn't play RE2 but I don't see why it wouldn't fit with that game, I really liked it on RE3 personally
slim thorn
okay, so, up to this point I've just been reacting and trying to correct misrepresentations of what I said, but do you want me to stop and write a proper essay on these RE design differences?
river veldt
yes
fresh bane
If that's what you want to do
hushed onyx
I guess what I'd really like would be a complete remake where they go back and redo the entire trilogy from the ground up with common gameplay systems, using what they learned over the course of the trilogy, and implement some of the things that they had to cut on the first go-round--the nonlinearity that was planned for Mass Effect 2, for instance, or the greater complexity of Therum that was planned in 1. It's not going to happen, but it would be nice.
slim thorn
ok fine let's do this
so the obvious upside to a fixed camera is you control exactly what the player sees, and what they don't see, in every single room, which works great for tightly scripted "cinematic" moments
by far the most common problem is when the camera angle given to you doesn't show all the enemies in a room that you're supposed to fight
in most of the fixed-angle REs (to be extremely clear, I'm including my experience playing RE1 remake, RE2 original, RE3 original, RE0, and most of RE:CV), this leads to some weird gameplay where
for example, I often have to wait for an enemy to get close before shooting it not because there's an optimal damage distance but because you can't even see if you're hitting them (and even with audio cues, which one you're hitting and whether it was enough to down it) until its in the right angle
and most of those games have an element of auto aim, so instead of looking around corners, I end up doing this thing where I walk forward and aim just to see if Jill/Claire/Rebecca will auto-turn to tell if there's an off-screen enemy
and this is such a huge part of actually playing these games that it even leads to second-level strategies like rushing forward in a new room because the angle/shape of what I see at first leads me to expect a better camera angle farther into it
of course, back when most of these games were made, this was the only option, so it's fine, and for the most part these strategies are still fun to play with even if they're a huge blow to immersion
gaunt marten
I'm in the car right now but I recommend the GDC video on camera management featuring Journey devs
slim thorn
and tank controls work well in these games because they don't depend on the current camera angle, and what we now think of as the relatively limited mobility it leads to is appropriate in a survival horror game where you're not supposed to feel like an invincible superhero
where this gets complicated is that RE2 starts the gradual shift from slow-paced tense decision-making just-horror to the medium-paced snap judgement action horror that RE4 is best known for
random steppe
so the obvious upside to a fixed camera is you control exactly what the player sees, and what they don't see, in every single room, which works great for tightly scripted "cinematic" moments
To expand on this, placing an unsettling sound, and using the camera for obscuring from where it comes from, was an extremely common trick in the old horror games so I can definitely see where this comes from.
Nowdays you can still do stuff like this, you'd have to put the sound behind a bend in the road and use level design to recreate a similar effect
slim thorn
again, starts, RE2 mostly makes small steps in that direction, but it was still plenty to create tension with the camera and controls of the time, especially in the boss fights as its the first of these older REs where the boss fights are total bullshit despite the rest of the game being pretty great
gaunt marten
https://youtu.be/C7307qRmlMI this one. It's fun
slim thorn
perhaps the best concrete example are the rooms later in RE2 where you have to fight lickers, not sneak past them, and they're fast and strong enough that all the tricks I outlined above aren't actually enough to allow me to get through the room without significant damage (on a first playthrough where I don't know how many and where they are of course)
gaunt marten
Wait, is it this one?
slim thorn
in the remake, using an OTS camera completely dispels this tension and makes the little issues it causes evaporate completely; it feels like what the original game probably always wanted to be
random steppe
I mean, the original reason for fixed camera is that the game could get away with much higher res backgrounds if it didn't have to model all of them and they just had to be looked from one direction
slim thorn
interestingly, RE3 doesn't seem to have this tension, except for the specific problem of BS boss fights
random steppe
It's surprising how well it worked in the long run
RE3 IIRC tends to zoom away pretty far during boss fights, and most of them IIRC seem to happen in the city rather than in tight rooms
gaunt marten
I mean, the original reason for fixed camera is that the game could get away wit...
Crash Bandicoot 1 did this to stuff crazy amounts of polygons into the PS1, far beyond what Sony thought possible
But the camera was dynamic on a dolly
Or a rail
slim thorn
I'm guessing it's because RE3 is, paradoxically, the most linear of the three despite all the talk of its open world-ness (not that I mind linear, it's just weird people called it that), so it almost never ran into the usual "the enemy's hidden by a bad camera angle" stuff
gaunt marten
It really was a best of both worlds solution
slim thorn
Zero is weird here because, if we ignore the completely unrelated issues like how having two characters and not having item boxes were poorly implemented, it somehow managed to extend the "boss attacks you can't reliably dodge" problem to a bunch of non-boss enemies, leading to a weird gameplay flow where I had to use nearly every healing item right after I got it because there's just so much undodgeable nonsense, to the point that taking 1 or 2 hits that were dodgeable would make me reload a save out of fear the game would be unwinnable
on the flip side, CV is super interesting in a good way because it has these semi-fixed angles where the camera will move and rotate to follow the player through a room in addition to the sharp changes to "different cameras"; it still ends up with a fair number of "I can't see the enemies" rooms but overall I like it a lot
anyway I think that's everything I have on that topic
slim thorn
RE3 IIRC tends to zoom away pretty far during boss fights, and most of them IIRC...
did you mean original or remake? "the city rather than tight rooms" is odd phrasing because, at least in the original, most of RE3 is tight "rooms" that are technically outdoor alleyways or parks or whatever, including the Nemesis and worm boss fights
random steppe
on the flip side, CV is super interesting in a good way because it has these sem...
This was largely the Silent Hill 2 approach
I meant the original, the rooms might be tight but the location was an open city, and they zoomed out quite a bit during boss fights
(or rather, the places in which you had boss fights tend to have a more bird eye view look at the streets)
IIRC
Compared to the mansion setting in RE2
slim thorn
I'm still confused then, there definitely was no birds' eye view going on in the RE3 boss fights I played
random steppe
Example of the 1st Nemesis boss fight.
You see the whole room, they don't ever need to switch camera during the fight, it's a farther view than you'd get from the average RE2 inside the mansion fight
slim thorn
...oh, you can fight him there
I just ran into the station lol
I was imagining the mandatory Nemesis fights at the clock tower courtyard and the... garbage disposal room? in the factory
random steppe
other Nemesis boss fight, both cameras have a look straight down into the street you fight in, they are similar to the 1st fight, you rarely get such an unobstructed view of a location inside the RE2 mansion
https://youtu.be/qnEmuhdVPRw?t=5365
slim thorn
huh, he never showed up there for me
random steppe
The compactor fight is definitely the exception, but given how it's a more complicated fight, with enviormental things you can use to damage him, it sort of make sense to deviate from that, as it's not just purely a dance in which you try to run around him and not die
slim thorn
I guess for the Nemesis "encounters" that weren't mandatory boss fights or scripted events, I visited things in a different order and ended up getting them in tighter areas than this player did
random steppe
To be clear, the rooms are tight during nemesis encounters, my argument is that in the whole game in general, and in most boss fights, RE3 tends to offer wider point of views from the cameras
And it's mostly because, it's more often in the streets of raccon city rather than in a mansion or indoors
slim thorn
ok I think we're on the same page then
random steppe
Like even that 1st fight, the room is rather tiny, it's just that you see all of it the good part
slim thorn
that 1st fight also seems to be lacking most of the moves he had in the clock tower fight (the first time I fought him) so he actually can be evaded reliably
still, is there any advantage to fighting him early?
random steppe
Also keep in mind this dude is kind of a god gamer
In hard mode if you fight him and defeat him both times IIRC you get a fancy pistol
slim thorn
ah
fresh bane
You do and I got it on my first playthrough 
I'm gonna need a bit to join in on this convo since I'm not home lol
slim thorn
I ran away because I had nowhere near enough ammo to be playing the "is this a required fight?" game with anything I could get away from
and, well, it's RE, you're supposed to be avoiding fights at least some of the time (even if 2 and 3 have far less avoidable combat than 1)
fresh bane
None of them are required when you have a choice but you totally can beat him for a nice reward and it's the only reason why I fought him
I never fought him afterwards
The gun parts you get are super worth it
It's only 2 fights and you get plenty chances to fight him, afterwards you just get a healing kit which is nice but not worth the ammo and possible damage
river veldt
@slim thorn why are Kingdom Hearts games always called something like "Kingdom Hearts: Y=34x12/opossum92 x=2(y8) Eggs over fried Rice X"
slim thorn
the specific names usually mean something but I don't have a justification for the overall style
river veldt
im going to be honest i just thought of this really stupid joke and you're the only KH fan (?) i know
true maple
who would play HK
river veldt
Hollow Knight?
true maple
oh i fucked it up
true maple
it was only two letters
gaunt marten
I played a lot Kingdom Hearts and I liked them but the story is a fucking mess
river veldt
doesn't Goofy die
slim thorn
KH definitely needed to get from 2 to 3 a lot faster than it did
gaunt marten
Nobody should know or care about why things are like that
gaunt marten
doesn't Goofy die
No he fucks Minnie Mouse
river veldt
i dont think that happens
gaunt marten
Sorry, the joke goes: Mickey Mouse talks to the marriage therapist who explains Minnie seems to be a perfectly sane person.
Mickey says "I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was fucking goofy!"
river veldt
i dont get it
gaunt marten
It's funny because when somebody is fucking goofy that means they're really silly
But in this case she's cheating on Mickey with Goofy
river veldt
infidelity isn't funny i think
gaunt marten
The funny part is the confusion
river veldt
i see
fresh bane
who would play HK
I'm gonna say it as someone who loves KH2
KH really isn't as good as people act/say it is
river veldt
why are there like 15 games between KH 2 and 3
fresh bane
By the time KH3 came out I was already done
fresh bane
why are there like 15 games between KH 2 and 3
Because the director is out of his mind
gaunt marten
I mostly like them for the mechanics
river veldt
who is the director
true maple
Hideaki Anno
gaunt marten
Me :)
river veldt
oh Nomura
wind stump
Average Bloons TD player:
river veldt
your ds looks weird
gaunt marten
It's emulated on her phone
gaunt marten
Goofy, perhaps
river veldt
yes
wind stump
goofy aaaa
uneven epoch
i always think fondly of this puzzle bc it reminds me of the first time ive encountered it. i was eight, maybe nine, and me n my family were on a ski trip. there were some kids at the ski lodge we were at that i talked to n played with durin evenings, and one such night one of the kids borrowed a pack of matches to give us this puzzle. the fact it was with real matches as well as the funny solution made it stick in my brain as a nice memory
sudden magnet
Peeps, could I create a thread for Urban Game's Fever series? (Train Fever, Transport Fever, and Transport Fever 2,)
dire gate
i always think fondly of this puzzle bc it reminds me of the first time ive enco...
"This dog got brutally killed via car accident. Recreate the scene by rearranging the matches"
gaunt marten
I fucking died after killing this guy https://i.imgur.com/fZWv1xJ.png
robust spear
This is a pretty stellar fan animation
This is made by JanAnimations and ShadyVox too.
quiet swift
The standalone (non dlc) version is free to keep
wind stump
quiet swift
That begs the question to folk: what is the best game you've played that you got for free? As in, paid 0 for either from a gift or these discounts and whatnot? Not pirated, I mean 😛
quiet swift
gaunt marten
Who in turn got it from a Hardee's promotion
quiet swift
Though at first glance that looks like some open source fan project of theme park game? Or does it just take inspiration from it? (at first glance it didn't look like a paid project, is what I am saying)
arctic fern
open rct2 is awesome
gaunt marten
For many people, the answer would be Portal 1, when Steam did a giveaway back in 2011
mossy flume
It’s Rollercoaster Tycoon 2, but reimplemented with much modernization and quality of life improvements. It’s a genuinely amazing project.
random steppe
That begs the question to folk: what is the best game you've played that you got...
Revenant from the ashes, I love that game so much.
I kinda want to replay it now that I have been thinking about it
gaunt marten
I played that for a while but didn't like it much so I got a refund
robust spear
That begs the question to folk: what is the best game you've played that you got...
I got a copy of Dragon Warrior for free from Nintendo Power for the NES. That game made me a fan of RPGs. It was the first one I ever played.
quiet swift
Myself, I got Horizon Zero Dawn for free on PS4 as they were doing that promotion before the launch of Forbidden West
Amazing game and the price couldn't be beat
random steppe
I played that for a while but didn't like it much so I got a refund
If you happen to try it again let me know, I definitely want to replay it since 2 is coming out and i never played the DLC.
And despite it being Souls adjacent, it actually has a working co-op mode.
Incredible I know, none thought it could be done
grim stirrup
remnant from the ashes was a great game, me and some friends played a bunch after it was free on epic
the dlc is apparently bad, but we were considering picking it up because of how much we enjoyed the base (and then just never did)
that being said im considering picking up code vein on steam, i enjoyed it when i played it on games pass and its pretty cheap
random steppe
I originally played it on epic, I picked it up on steam for the DLC tho, since it's basically the same as buying all of it discounted on steam, or just the DLCS on epic, and I never seen those go on sale there
gaunt marten
I can't afford anything anymore
random steppe
Yeah I'm not saying now, I mean if it happens down the line
grim stirrup
alas 60% isnt low enough a price for me to care to rebuy it on a new platform, maybe if it went lower, which it hasnt according to steamdb
wind stump
hell yeah i'm RIDIN' THE GONK
quiet swift
I want the homeworld 3 collector's ed because the figurine (statue?) actually looks great and looking forward to the game. My workplace has a "recognition points" system where you can get gift cards/coupons/etc, and I have enough to get about 100$ off. Except that amazon.co.uk doesn't have the CE in stock. Game.co.uk does but I have no discount code for that.
amazon.COM has the game in stock, but... to ship it to ireland would be (estmated by amazon) 96$
flint iron
graceful bridge
random steppe
https://youtu.be/lppo5cNxrhk
What the hell? This is incredible
green fulcrum
https://mp1st.com/news/report-lego-sports-game-license-secured-by-2k-lego-2k-dri...
Huh, for once I might actually be excited for a sports game. I wonder if it means motorsports, considering the "drive" bit. 🤔
gaunt marten
https://i.imgur.com/LjXuV0Q.png Please stop listing DLC as games
graceful bridge
flint iron
I can't wait for that game to come out
sage iris
YOOOOO I CANNOT wAIT FOR THIS
heady bridge
https://i.imgur.com/LjXuV0Q.png Please stop listing DLC as games
I'm imagining how bad this would be for Dead or Alive 5 as that game had a monstrous amount of DLC
slim thorn
tough choice right off the bat
visual hill
That begs the question to folk: what is the best game you've played that you got...
Trackmania Nations Forever and Enemy Territory come to mind, but these games were always available for free… they just happen to be "commercial free" games in the sense that they were made by a professional studio, but released it for free without microtransactions for different reasons
(the former because it's technically a demo for Trackmania United Forever, the latter because its singleplayer portion was canceled)
Dirty Bomb was eventually made free without microtransactions too, after it failed to garner enough success
slim thorn
lol there's an option for scan lines
slim thorn
they are off by default
visual hill
CRT shaders can be great or horrible, but basic scanlines are far from proper CRT emulation
slim thorn
I expect they'd get annoying
quiet swift
Trackmania Nations Forever and Enemy Territory come to mind, but these games wer...
Ah, i did mean something that has a full game cost but is free for some reason, like an epic free thing or whenever that happens on Steam or elsewhere
visual hill
I've only played a handful of EGS free games, mostly due to lack of time
slim thorn
...tuxedo corgis? did I read that katakana right?
gaunt marten
It's a unique and fun Cyberpunk genre game
slim thorn
well this dystopia can't be that bad, I already have a cat and a kotatsu
quiet swift
free on gog with the usual newletter subscription thingy
gaunt marten
It has Garfield Kart, your favorite game
On second thought I recall the guy who made Garfield being a virulent racist
river veldt
no you're thinking of the Dilbert creator
Jim Davis, the creator of Garfield, is a cool guy from what I remember
gaunt marten
Oh they're the same thing
river veldt
no?
mossy flume
They're different people.
river veldt
Dilbert is a bad comic about office work and Garfield is a sometimes funny comic about a cat who likes lasagna
gaunt marten
All comics are bad forever
river veldt
no
mossy flume
Pony comics: 
river veldt
Calvin and Hobbes and Far Side are both amazing
mossy flume
Far Side was great
gaunt marten
I agree on Calvin and Hobbes
mossy flume
Miss that.
gaunt marten
river veldt
Far Side and C&H both ended the same year :(
river veldt
that's pretty funny
gaunt marten
Yeah
visual hill
All comics are bad forever
A delayed comic is eventually good, but a rushed comic is forever bad.
dense crypt
That begs the question to folk: what is the best game you've played that you got...
For Honor, unironically. I want to play that game a lot more but it's intimidating. Otherwise, not a lot of games I got for free.
Either that or shadow warrior 2
sour hill
That begs the question to folk: what is the best game you've played that you got...
Doom Eternal, probably
wind stump
...tuxedo corgis? did I read that katakana right? <:ppenk:681838745611141137>
That is correct.
slim thorn
this feels like a good result for day 1? (managed to catch the achievement overlay)
I just assume Hc knows what these are in English
that probably wasn't supposed to take 4 hours but I'm stopping there for tonight
wind stump
I do!
Good job on getting a flawless.
What size Beer did you give Donovan when he asked the first time?
slim thorn
small lol
but later when he asked for a refill I did large again without prompting and he seemed happy about that
wind stump
Yup! He gets everyone, lmao
DW the game won't be as mean as implying that Donovan is "rather large" to make the right drink... Mostly.
slim thorn
I can't even remember what I made for the "calming" drink
oh right, my thought process was small, no alcohol, but none of the adjectives were a clear fit, eventually settled on classic as the least wrong and I think that led to me to Frothy Water
oh, I was pleased with myself for immediately recognizing the name "Kim" once she said it
reading all the codex entries before work paid off
wind stump
Ah for that one you can serve Kim any drink without penalty.
On a tangential note, there's a secret drink you can mix up if you played 2064: Read Only Memories and headed to a bar in that game and talking to Dana there (Because 2064 and Vallhalla are in the same universe) and if you serve that to Kim you can get a 2064 bonus client.
slim thorn
ok so I was overthinking it
wind stump
ok so I was overthinking it
You were lmao
I just wanted to add that tangent for a potential NG+ run so you can get the achievements for seeing the secret clients
slim thorn
I expect to bomb hard when they actually give me a drink puzzle
wind stump
I don't think there's anything too taxing brain wise.
slim thorn
oh, how long is the game? in in-universe days or typical play hours
wind stump
Hmm. I don't know, given that you spent 4 hours in one night, lmao
slim thorn
today was very distracting 
wind stump
I get that feel
arctic fern
and yet i still want it
fresh bane
they look like if I pressed them sort of hard they'd snap
you guys can't even do like a cute little master sword hilt type thing? no? just an engraving? ok
rancid herald
oh god
Tears of the Kingdom is going to turn out to be a cooking game, isn't it?
Gorden Ramsey is going to play the villain
slim thorn
...I never did learn to cook in BotW
rancid herald
there's really nothing to it
random steppe
He causes the tears by harshly criticising everyone's cooking skills
rancid herald
yes
He insults Zelda and she starts crying so Link goes to stick a sword in him, but oh no he dodges!
"Your blade handling skills are nothing compared to mine!"
Ramsey pulls out two kitchen knives
fresh bane
You don't really need any intricate recipes on BOTW you can literally just survive off of raw ingredients or very simple basic recipes that anyone could figure out (food + heat or cold makes nice warm food)
but... you can make a fancy dish... if you want to
the recipes are there and the dishes are really nice 
Before I searched a list of dishes I straight up never knew that some of these dishes even existed or were possible but it's surprisingly in depth, obviously not super in depth but more than I expected
river veldt
oh ive made the egg and rice on the bottom left
none of these others
that apple one looks tasty af
fresh bane
river veldt
like i would eat that irl
fresh bane
you can make pies and shit and full on cakes and sweets
river veldt
nire stop you're making me hungry
fresh bane
do you need to do them? not at all and you probably would get more out of a simple dish with simple ingredients but they're there and they're fucking great
river veldt
oh that fruitcake is BOTW Zelda's favourite
arctic fern
that apple one looks tasty af
buttered apple
literally butter and apple
fresh bane
ew
river veldt
i dont think i have any butter
slim thorn
I don't think I ever made even a simple dish after the one time they force you
rancid herald
man
river veldt
I don't think I ever made even a simple dish after the one time they force you
???? how did you heal????
rancid herald
I remember being a kid and reading redwall, and getting so hungry
slim thorn
I don't remember
rancid herald
Ixrec doesn't know about the extra heart foods
river veldt
well food is what heals you
slim thorn
nope
river veldt
i guess you could have lived off of seared steak and apples
fresh bane
not making any dishes is definitely something I never heard of before of someone playing botw lol
it's like one of the game's main gimmicks
slim thorn
BotW in general seems to have a lot going on that went completely over my head when I played it, despite "finishing" it
river veldt
im thinking of doing all the koroks...
fresh bane
I mean there's definitely a lot of stuff that's super missable but one of the game's main mechanics I would say isn't although to be fair there's that one streamer who never found out that you can parry, charge an attack or dodge/backflip until like halfway through the game
river veldt
idk if i will
fresh bane
so hey
rancid herald
no, Mario, don't eat the Koroks
river veldt
no im not going to eat them
i just idk
finding all of them i think will make me appreciate Hyrule more
rancid herald
"te he you found me!
... now let's get baked"
river veldt
and i have to complete my compendium
slim thorn
there are several games where I'm aware parrying exists but just can't get it to work well enough that it ever makes sense to use in a real fight