Dishonored is another one of the games that comes up during discussions surrounding this genre 
#general gaming
fresh bane
slim thorn
for some reason I never think of Dishonored as an example but I probably should
I must've been too laser-focused on stealth when I played it
fresh bane
Unfortunately the first game has a very divisive mechanic where it heavily discourages experimentation and a different playstyle that isn't non lethal stealth
This was removed afterwards
It directly goes against the whole immersive sim design philosophy
river veldt
i dont like stealth stealth is boring
fresh bane
please continue
which one of us?
visual hill
an immersive sim is a game that is well-received but sells poorly –Civvie11
System Shock 2 is on my to-play list, I've finished Thief 1 and 2 already
slim thorn
I never did get to the Thiefs
visual hill
but first, I will have to go through the debate of "should you play SS2 with music" 
there is no right answer, but many people turn off music in that game to make it scarier
Thief 1/2 only play ambient music from time to time (not unlike Minecraft), and it helps a lot in the game's atmosphere
slim thorn
huh, I'd never heard that one either
visual hill
personally, I don't care that much about being stealthy, so I'm all for more action-oriented immsimms
slim thorn
I feel like I ended up playing SS2 mostly as though it was Half-Life with a lockpick skill 
or was it hacking? it's been a while
visual hill
you should see me play MGS2, I'm sure many people would balk at how many enemies I kill
fresh bane
Ahhh well, Dishonored has a whole 'chaos' system in place. What it does is that if you kill too many people, if you get spotted a lot, if alarms start ringing, the game starts to add more guards, make them more vigilant, adds a lot more rats and other type of enemies the game has, it also affects the story by giving you a significantly darker 'bad' ending and also affects relationships with other characters.
People always had discussions over whether or not this whole system is good, a lot of people think it's great and it makes sense narratively and that it's not bad at all and if you 'act like a villain/murderer' you should be treated like one, others think it's bad because it doesn't allow for proper experimentation and it's too punishing and strict, to even achieve low chaos you have to avoid killing a large number of the total enemies in the game, so even the objectives you're meant to kill are out of the question as sometimes killing a couple of enemies is already enough to put you in mid to high chaos.
slim thorn
immsimm really isn't my usual genre, I think only Deus Ex and Prey managed to force me to play them like immsimms instead of falling into one of my more familiar gameplay loops
visual hill
Ahhh well, Dishonored has a whole 'chaos' system in place. What it does is that ...
reminds me how in Dark Forces 2, I turned to the dark side just by a tiny bit… I probably killed a NPC too many in the mission before the game decides which side you go on
I didn't want to 
not that I cared that much, but it does change a bunch of the FMVs you see… I was watching a playthrough and most of the FMVs were entirely different from mine
slim thorn
oh the chaos level, I forgot all about that because to me it was just the standard boringly binary good/evil ending with a funny marketing term so I never felt there was anything interesting to it
visual hill
"you accidentally threw a grenade on a R2D2 lookalike, you're evil!!1"
slim thorn
I favor stealth in those games because I like being stealthy and not killing, when given a choice; I don't need a good ending to motivate that
fresh bane
you should see me play MGS2, I'm sure many people would balk at how many enemies...
The funny thing is that other games like MGS Peace Walker and MGSV actually give you penalties for killing enemies but for MGS1-2-3-4 it doesn't seem to be a big issue 
I don't know why this is honestly but it's how it is
visual hill
Thief generally forbids you from killing anyone in Expert difficulty, or at least humans in most levels
you can stun enemies instead (they don't wake up like in some games), it's nearly the same but they need to be unaware
white phoenix
lol if you've ever watched StealthGamerBR's Dishonored videos, you'd think that Dishonored is one of the best games ever made
but if you ever play like that, then you get the bad ending
slim thorn
the MGS scenarios were often ones where killing more of the bad guys was arguably the right thing to do so it makes sense that's not punished
fresh bane
To my knowledge the DLCs for Dishonored are always infinitely better than the base game, the first DLC for Dishonored is just Dishonored but better in terms of gameplay, the abilities are enhanced and also you don't run out of mana as quickly or at all IIRC, the second DLC for the second Dishonored is also similar and removes the chaos system entirely
Making it a lot more fun to actually play
visual hill
The funny thing is that other games like MGS Peace Walker and MGSV actually give...
Peace Walker
white phoenix
I mean, stealth is fun, but the potential to the creativity you can do in the game is so immense that you just want to kill everyone
fresh bane
*Peace* Walker
does this not scream 'peace'? 
slim thorn
the whole "creative killing" in Dishonored never appealed to me even when it was laid out, I dunno how to explain it
fresh bane
''PEACE. OR ELSE.''
fresh bane
the whole "creative killing" in Dishonored never appealed to me even when it was...
It's definitely not a thing for everyone or not a thing that anyone can even do very easily but it's a type of system I appreciate a lot just like I appreciate DMC's mechanics
astral field
does this not scream 'peace'? <:rdsnrk:587780329335422977>
Peace Through Superior Firepower
fresh bane
There's enough there for anyone who doesn't wanna spend thousands of hours to have fun with and there's also a lot of stuff there for anyone who wants to find the most creative way to kill someone to have fun with
white phoenix
I finished dishonored with low chaos and stealth, but I feel like I would have had way more fun going full genocide mode
fresh bane
Yeah, it's definitely a case of ''look at all these cool things you can do! but ah ah ah, don't do them!''
That's why it's extremely divisive because a lot of people think it's good narratively and storywise but when it comes to actually playing the game it sucks because you're forbidden from using all of your cool shit that you can do
visual hill
stealth is very hard to get right, a ton of games only make it worth using for a few enemies to give you some time
fresh bane
visual hill
(Far Cry, modern Wolfenstein games)
slim thorn
right this all makes sense to me now, I just didn't remember it because genocide didn't appeal to me back then
even in SO:TL I was constantly looking for ways to avoid killing ||and there are some, not many, but some||
visual hill
OG Far Cry is the extra infuriating version you do get a sensor that tells you how alerted enemies are, but enemies tend to occasionally see you through vegetation or from very far away. Proning does help bring down this alert meter, especially in vegetation, but it can require waiting a lot
white phoenix
side note, this is one of my favourite things to do in dishonored https://giphy.com/gifs/linarf-games-3ohhwC4cI3MzufzRdK
fresh bane
I was literally about to post that one lol
random steppe
I honestly like the way Dishonored did it.
As I see it, in most games of the genre, when they have to find a way to reward stealth, all the other approach seem lackluster.
- There is the thief route, where not going stealth is not an option, either because you can't or because actually fighting feels like shit.
- There is the MGS way, well modern MGS at least, where fighting and killing is an option, but they are gonna lower your points
- There is the dishonored way, where killing is an option, it's much easier than stealth, but kill too much and the levels become harder (which is a great piece of adaptive difficulty, since you are picking a easier playstyle, so the game becomes a bit harder so you don't get bored) but you can come back from it by being sneakier going forward.
At the time I thought it was pretty elegant, and also pretty lenient, it's not that I didn't kill anyone in my first playthrough, I killed plenty, just didn't go too crazy with it.
I do think that it needed more stealth gadgets tho
Most of the toys you get are lethal so I don't disagree with the feeling on missing out if you decide to go stealth
fresh bane
It's not that the game changes depending on how you play it as much as all of your tools are lethal, the game goes into high chaos very easily and it's just heavily discouraging you from using the tools that the game is giving you
If there's a choice to be made like in MGS where you can use lethal guns and gadgets and they are cool but non lethal gadgets are also cool then that's entirely up to the player and the game will react accordingly
random steppe
Looking at google, it says that the general rule is that you kill less than 20% of hostiles you should stay in low chaos, that's still A LOT of murder
fresh bane
You will rarely see people use lethal approaches on MGS because non lethal is just that much more fun
fresh bane
Looking at google, it says that the general rule is that you kill less than 20% ...
It has happened to a lot of people playing the game that the game will go into high chaos extremely quickly even when just killing the targets or just a couple of people
random steppe
This dude did some research apparently.
You can kill a lot.
minor plover
update on my wife's Dark Souls run:
with her second character, she made it through Anor Londo and the Demon Ruins and then was just like "ehhh don't really like this build" so she started over. Her third character has now finished Anor Londo. Biggest differences: (1) more focused dex build, and (2) she understands the types of armor better and has chosen to invest a lot more resources upgrading so she's running like +7 armor instead of +1 and +2 on most pieces, which obviously makes her much more survivable
fresh bane
It's not the best implementation of this system and it could be done a lot better especially if the game actually learns to differentiate killing a corrupt official from a regular guard that did nothing wrong
Also remember that kills are only one thing that adds to your chaos, getting spotted also adds to high chaos
random steppe
Yeah I know, just saying that the game is much more lenient that people think it is
Also you can go back from high to low chaos
My 1st playtrhough I played pretty stealthy with quite a bit of murder thrown in because a lot of the gadgets were made for muder and that was more fun.
Me being largely stealthy definitely contribuited to me being able to kill as much as I did
random steppe
update on my wife's Dark Souls run:
with her second character, she made it throu...
This is awesome to hear, finishing Anor Londo is a major hurdle.
Also unlocks the teleportation between boonfires and that must feel pretty good to have.
fresh bane
at the end of the day it boils down to the game actively punishing you for using the tools it gives you and making the ''good'' playthrough very boring in comparison
The system could be better but it's not all of the problem
fresh bane
update on my wife's Dark Souls run:
with her second character, she made it throu...
Hearing someone upgrading their armor is so rare 
minor plover
yeah, she was specifically talking about the teleportation as the big prize there
random steppe
Honestly, I still like Dishonored 1 pre DLC more than pretty much anything else that came out after (even tho I like all of it, the one thing I am not too enthusiasitc about was the "Death of the Outsider" spinoff)
Thank god they stopped asking you to upgrade armor past the 1st game. in Dark Souls
minor plover
she also finally won a pvp fight when someone invaded, because this time around she's invested much more into equipment instead of being high level, so she got a much lower level invader who she was able to dispatch
yeah? Do the future games just have better base armor pieces that don't need upgrades?
random steppe
Yeah, they figured out it was more fun if you could just swap armor to fit the situation
And having to invest a lot to upgrade the pieces got in the way of that
fresh bane
You basically never upgrade the armor you use in a souls game unless youre 100% certain you're never going to change it
random steppe
In DS3 I am positive you just can't upgrade it
In DS2 I'm 80% on it
Been a while
Not sure about Demon Souls
fresh bane
Same goes for weapons but it's more of a don't upgrade your weapon to the max level because you might find something better later, but you can upgrade as long as you don't use any limited items like embers or ascend past a certain level
random steppe
Ok after checking you can upgrade in DS2
minor plover
yeah, I think the first time through she was thinking like "just swap armor to fit the situation", and second time through she'd throw an upgrade or two on things she used a lot. This time through she's like "I like these two sets so I'll upgrade them, and everything I need to upgrade them is farmable or buyable so if I find something I like more later it's not a big setback". Weapons are ... definitely "only upgrade the key ones using limited resources"
random steppe
And you can't in DS3
minor plover
it's really a matter of figuring out the resource economy and playstyle.
random steppe
I think the change came in Bloodborne and they ported it to the next souls game they made
fresh bane
I remember using a very light armor set my first time around on DS1 because I was going for a STR build with a Claymore but I still wanted fast rolls, I could've easily just not used any armor at all and that's what I did on subsequent playthroughs but for that time I was still new to the game so I didn't want to do that
After a while once you start learning more you can just run around naked or wear armor purely for fashion purposes
if you see this in PVP run away
minor plover
yeah, seems to really depend on how mistake-prone you are and how much you want to be able to absorb certain types of hits etc
I definitely see the difference when she's in a higher-mobility armor set in terms of making stuff just constantly miss
fresh bane
Armor definitely makes a lot of impact in DS1, it's why I like that game so much
By the time DS3 comes around it's practically useless
You might as well wear armor for fashion purposes in that game
random steppe
In DS3 I remember that the wisdom when the game came out, is, just have any armor piece and you are golden.
I think you got extra damage if you had completely unarmored spots.
river veldt
wizdon
gaunt marten
That is correct. I think armor in DS3 is essential
fresh bane
I think even shields are rendered pretty useless in comparison to the previous games in DS3
gaunt marten
Especially for elemental resistances
Shields are also quite useful
They trivialize huge parts of the game when used correctly
fresh bane
I wouldn't say armor is essential in DS3 at all, even the heavier sets of armor don't mitigate as much damage and they don't even give you any real poise
It's all in the hyperarmor frames in your special attacks
quiet swift
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4yhnGIapNvA similarly, if you see a guy half naked with a pot on his head... run
fresh bane
Armor in DS3 is for fashion, yeah it does work as armor and it does give you extra defense, but it's not really that much at all and it's a lot more impactful in DS1
It's why in DS1 the 'best' heavy build is havel set and dragontooth
You're basically a tank with high damage output in that thing
fresh bane
The Catarina set?
It's alright
It's not the heaviest set but it's a nice in between
gaunt marten
You still get enough survivability to tank many attacks that would be one hit kills, like Midir's big laser
quiet swift
the fat amrour
This?
river veldt
so rude
gaunt marten
You do have to select the correct armor for each enemy for armor to actually be useful
fresh bane
gaunt marten
There are tools that exist to find the maximal amount of one type of defense per unit of weight, allowing you to do a fast or mid roll while maxing your defense
river veldt
enbies are immune to his wiles
random steppe
The most effective use for armor in any souls game I found, is definitely when you end up having to contend with status effects IMO.
gaunt marten
Yeah
random steppe
Yeah, poison is the most common example
gaunt marten
Onion guy is funny
gaunt marten
He's dumb and cheerful
river veldt
i love that
random steppe
There isn't any explicitly comedy bits, there are a lot of injokes in it tho
fresh bane
Patches is funny
fresh bane
river veldt
like men that roll around in wheels
gaunt marten
Yeah, comedy ruins the atmosphere but lightheartedness works
random steppe
None can forget the interminably long ladder...again
gaunt marten
like men that roll around in wheels
Please no
river veldt
?
gaunt marten
Skeleton wheels are incredibly dangerous enemies
fresh bane
They're skeletons stuck in wheels
gaunt marten
river veldt
does he roll around
gaunt marten
They run at you and then roll
river veldt
that's awesome
minor plover
oh yeah, my wife fucking hated those guys the first time she ran into them. Got stuck in that area repeatedly.
gaunt marten
Running the spikes into your face repeatedly
random steppe
river veldt
i want to be a wheel guy when i grow up
random steppe
The pain
gaunt marten
They are basically instant death for new players
random steppe
Just watching it
minor plover
they're nasty because they hit you and then just keep hitting you, and if you don't have amazing poise, you're just screwed
random steppe
fresh bane
Poise is what allows you to not get staggered by attacks
gaunt marten
Stops you from getting knocked around
minor plover
lol ok guess I won't answer then
river veldt
what happens at the end of Dark Souls
fresh bane
The skeleton dudes are a bitch on the painted world
gaunt marten
The soul darkens
fresh bane
That entire area is very hard
river veldt
does John Dark Souls say it's soulsi g time and then darks all over the place
gaunt marten
Play the game to find out
random steppe
You want an answer? I have one
river veldt
yes
minor plover
anyway, her second game she had a much better build that was pretty good poise and pretty good mobility, so the wheel skeletons were a lot less bad, and her third game she just roflstomped them
river veldt
Play the game to find out
i dont much care for Dark Souls gameplay
random steppe
Which dark souls? You want the end of the 1st game or the series?
river veldt
the series
gaunt marten
Yeah, if you know how to fight them they're easy to kill
fresh bane
After a couple playthroughs you're bound to get better at the game
river veldt
"a couple playthroughs"
fresh bane
I remember having troubles in DS1 because I play the original version and I played it on a bad computer so there was a lot of lag there
dire gate
fresh bane
but by my second or third time around the catacombs weren't as hard
river veldt
BURGERTIME DELUXE LETS FUCKING GO
random steppe
Dark Souls spoilers ahead
||Ok so, basically, humanity has been created using the Dark Soul, which by the end of it, is the last piece of "energy" left in the world and is slowly getting thinner and enthropy is setting in.||
||At the end of the last game, you go forward in time, and fight this dude (Which is called Gael) that spent about thousands of years killing everyone to collect all the Dark Soul that was in humanity.||
||You kill him, take the Dark Soul, bring it back to a painter that uses it as a pigment to create a new world, so even if this world dies, it's not the end||
minor plover
yeah, it's clearly the kind of game where IRL experience matters a lot
fresh bane
The entirety of Dark Souls' game philosophy is based on pure trial and error
river veldt
Dark Souls spoilers ahead
||Ok so, basically, humanity has been created using th...
wow that's surprisingly quite hopeful
i like it :)
fresh bane
The UI is not great
it does very little to communicate to the player what stuff means especially in DS1
gaunt marten
It takes huge amounts of influence from Berserk
minor plover
the storyline feels like it was written by Writer McWriteface
river veldt
It takes huge amounts of influence from Berserk
is that the thing where the guy has the huge sword
gaunt marten
Yes
river veldt
that's epic
minor plover
but the graphics are incredible and the gameplay looks like it came from someone who really likes the tactical side of swordplay and such
river veldt
do you think Dark Souls 3 would be possible on the Switch
gaunt marten
Yeah. DS3 is a lot more accessible for new players and a bit more fast paced
fresh bane
the UGS is pretty much the Dragonslayer
gaunt marten
If any Dark Souls games is a fit for the Switch it's 3
fresh bane
DS1 is on the switch so why not
random steppe
I really love the fact that you have to commit to attacks, and "learn the dance" so to speak
By the time you kill a difficult boss you play completely differently against it.
river veldt
we got DS1 yeah
river veldt
the UGS is pretty much the Dragonslayer
whoa!
minor plover
I'm having a lot of fun watching her play through it and figure out what she likes and then just crush areas that were a problem last time
random steppe
My favourite part is that it's more than just getting better stats, the 1st playthrough of a souls is 50 hours, the 2nd is like, 5.
You do get hugely better at the game if you stick with it.
random steppe
Also you do get rinsed a lot by very big guys with swords
That's a big part of the experience
river veldt
"rinsed"?
gaunt marten
My favourite part is that it's more than just getting better stats, the 1st play...
Yes. I've been playing Death's Gambit again and it's so much more easier now that I know what to do.
There's an achievement for beating the game in four hours without leveling up (or dying)
Might route it out and give it a try.
random steppe
fresh bane
The game is still an RPG so stats will inevitably make a difference, I remember having a lot of trouble with Artorias when I was going through the game with a DEX build because I did next to no damage, and the fight is pretty tough, after I upgraded my weapon a few times the fight was a lot better, I did decent to good damage that time around and I was able to get Ciaran's swords which are the ones I was aiming for that playthrough 
river veldt
who wins in a fight Doomguy or John Dark Souls
fresh bane
Ciaran's gold and silver traces let you do a lot of cool anime moves
random steppe
Doom guy, probably, but it also depends if the Souls duder can respawn and try again about 400 times
fresh bane
gaunt marten
But Dark Souls is defined by the protagonist dying over and over again
It's part of the story and the world and the appeal
random steppe
Man, they should have totally put them back in DS3 as a double weapon
random steppe
lol
river veldt
wtf
gaunt marten
That's exactly what I'm saying
river veldt
ok
gaunt marten
Your suggestion to make it so the Dark Souls protagonist only dies once is crazy
river veldt
John Dark Souls gets 100 attempts
gaunt marten
At a hundred it sounds reasonable that it would go both ways, depending on the conditions
Then again, BFG
river veldt
Doomguy has his entire arsenal except the BFG and Unmaykr
random steppe
The fun thing about Dark Souls, is that canonically none can die.
They keep coming back
The loss of self is defined by "going hollow" as in "losing purpose"
Basically your dude going hollow is you stopping to play the game.
Your dude strength of spirit is yours, I always loved that.
gaunt marten
Plasma gun is more DPS anyway
river veldt
true
river veldt
The fun thing about Dark Souls, is that canonically none can die.
They keep comi...
that is actually quite cool
fresh bane
That is cool but unfortunately there's also the confusing in game mechanic of going hollow which happens after death
I think DS3 got rid of that in exchange for the embered state
minor plover
oh yeah, took me a long time to understand that "humanity" and "humanity" aren't the same thing in DS
random steppe
It definitely works better from a psychological standpoint
minor plover
like if you reverse hollowing, then you can access the coop and pvp aspects of the game, as well as some NPC summons ... so being "human" gives you those things. But having points in "humanity" doesn't do that.
random steppe
Also when you are embered you looks cool as hell
And looking normal vs looking cooler, is a much better approach than looking like beef jerky vs looking like a normal person
minor plover
took me a while to figure out which triggers were which
gaunt marten
One thing about humanity you will not find out without looking it up
Killing enemies in a new zone awards you with humanities, and the amount is based on how many you kill before you defeat the boss, so you can always get a few points by grinding in a new area
This gives you soft humanities, not the item version, so it's good for defense and item find but can't be used for healing
random steppe
You can use it to kindle a new bonfire tho, which is pretty good
fresh bane
Humanity does a lot of things and the main method of farming humanity is to just respawn and kill enemies that are more likely to drop humanity
gaunt marten
Yeah
fresh bane
Rats drop humanity, baby skeletons drop humanity, and the humanities before Mundus' arena also drops humanity
gaunt marten
The reason I mentioned it is because you might be confused to see your humanity number increasing even though you did nothing
There is a delay after killing an enemy and before getting a soft humanity
fresh bane
The thing that determines how much humanity or items you get is the soft humanity meter which increases your chances of finding new items or getting more humanity, and yes some enemies asides from dropping souls also drop soft humanity which is automatically added to your humanity counter
All the Souls have this type of stuff but DS1 in specific has a bunch of these obscure mechanics that the game does nothing to explain about
If it weren't for videos on youtube of people dumping hours into experimenting and using tools to check values or check game files and stuff and making videos analyzing and explaining we'd probably still not fully know how stuff works 
like the Vagrants, something that I bet 90% of players never even encountered or knew existed at all
random steppe
I found one, once
gaunt marten
I saw like three vagrants and died to one of them before I knew what it was
fresh bane
this is another obscure creative online gameplay mechanic Fromsoft attempted with DS1
Fromsoft has a very unique approach to online gameplay mechanics but honestly a lot of the times some of these fall flat or end up being super obscure and almost unused entirely
minor plover
oh yeah, vagrants often drop neat stuff but I have no idea how they spawn etc
fresh bane
That video goes pretty in depth about the exact process and details behind that entire mechanic
It's not super clear
minor plover
yeah, videos aren't a great way for me to learn things. Audio processing is challenging for me. I'd have to care a lot to put myself through learning from video.
gaunt marten
They drop when other players lose items or something
You have zero influence over it
fresh bane
Vagrants are monsters which spawn in response to bloodstains being lost or items being dropped and abandoned. When a player dies and leaves a bloodstain with considerable humanity (5 or more) and fails to collect it before dying again, or the player leaves certain items and reloads the area without picking them up, there's a chance these will travel to another player's world and become a Vagrant. Vagrants appear in two different forms (named "Good" and "Evil").
If a Vagrant is not killed by a player, it will be sent out again to another player's world. This will continue until the Vagrant is finally slain. If the Vagrant is sent out enough times, it will eventually upgrade into a more powerful black phantom version that drops more valuable loot when killed.
that's the basic gist of it
gaunt marten
I figured it out
The bundle is sold only in twelve regions. That's why I could not see it
fresh bane
Maybe and there's also the slight but not impossible chance that one of the vagrants will make its way back to you
minor plover
ok, so do you know what happens if you summon someone to help with a boss fight, and they help, but they die before the fight ends and you still beat it? Do they get a reward? (Happened with my wife earlier -- dude was definitely helpful, but got killed by the second guy in the Anor Londo bossfight. We hope he got a bonus for helping anyway.)
fresh bane
I don't think so no I think the bonuses only apply if you both complete a boss fight
random steppe
If they die they don't get a reward
random steppe
Which weapon is she using btw? I usually play STR in these games so I actually have no idea
Like, rapier? Stuff like that?
minor plover
she's using "Queelag's Furysword" because she thinks it's fun
random steppe
Oh, interesing pick? Is this the curved sword? Been forever
minor plover
and she has a lightning katana and I think a chaos sword of some sort
yeah, it's a katana upgrade
fresh bane
Interesting choice, Queelag's Furysword is nice
The other option is probably not great lol Chaos Blade
It has insane scaling but it drains your HP with each hit
minor plover
she wanted to make both but didn't realize they used the same boss soul
random steppe
Yep, you have to pick
fresh bane
One of the neat things I'll admit about DS2 is that with the use of Bonfire Ascetics you can reset an area and fight the boss again so you can get the soul twice in the same playthrough
You can't do that in DS1 unfortunately
gaunt marten
You could duplicate boss souls through exploits
minor plover
so she ascended her other katana to lightning I think
fresh bane
Lightning is good
Not a lot of enemies have resistance to lightning so it's a good pick
random steppe
I have like, negative memory of the DS1 weapon ascensions.
I know less than nothing, everything blurs together with the games after so I'd just spread misinformation if I tried to comment on it
minor plover
sounds like a lot of lists put the chaos blade between #1 and #3, and the furysword between #3 and #5, for "best"
fresh bane
Chaos Blade is easily one of the strongest swords in the game, it has insanely good scaling
but, it does drain health with each hit
minor plover
she's also more of an explorer than an optimizer, so she's the sort to have multiple good weapons
and just be like "thisone is fun, I'll run it for a while" and then "aww it's disappointing in this area"
gaunt marten
Yeah
astral field
Claymore is a solid, reliable, all around good weapon in ds1.
I highly recommend it.
Falchion is pretty bonkers with high dex and two handed, too.
minor plover
she played a Claymore in a previous game
astral field
There is also the Zweihander, for ultragreatsword shenanigans.
It is kinda a meme, but I find it fun.
minor plover
and she just sent me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blSXTZ3Nihs which is both hilarious and good advice
fresh bane
astral field
Accurate video is accurate!
minor plover
it's seriously fun watching her go from "man I keep dying to these nasty dudes in Undead Burg" to "brand new character, only deaths in Undead Burg was because I tried the Black Knight and it took a few tries"
gaunt marten
Yeah!
random steppe
it's seriously fun watching her go from "man I keep dying to these nasty dudes i...
Yes!
It's why you keep seeing those white semitransparent ghosts of other players all over
Or why the game has messages the other players can leave
minor plover
yeah, there are a lot of neat mechanics like that
random steppe
It's not about doing a hard thing, it's about doing a hard thing while you know other people are also doing the same
minor plover
well, and about gitting gud
astral field
DS1 is very much a game about exploring and learning and I love that about it.
random steppe
You sit down at a bonfire, and you see another dude sit at the same bonfire and go "i know my dude, this place is bullshit" and get up and get your spine rearranged by a very large dude with a mace
minor plover
and then eventually you kick that dude's ass and then you have Havel's Ring
random steppe
True
gaunt marten
Havel and the Black Knight are both incredibly dangerous enemies that can be trivialized by parrying
astral field
"What are these weird water jets? Is that a fucking hydra? Why is it shooting water at me?! Run away! Oh nice, a building! I'll take cover inside." SLAM
minor plover
she's currently bad at parrying, but has worked on it and is much better than her previous "fucking terrible"
gaunt marten
The best spot to learn parrying is the silver knights in Anor Londo.
fresh bane
Havel is made a lot more trivial by simply dodging his attacks and locking him into a backstab chain
random steppe
Can be killed with parry but honestly, I never got the hang of it with Black Knights, it was just better for me to learn to punish certain attacks
fresh bane
There's a popular trick in Havel's tower to make him chase you up the stairs, jump down, and position yourself behind him to backstab him as soon as he gets down
gaunt marten
The Silver Knights have a moveset identical to the Black Knights but deal a lot less damage
random steppe
I did pratice parry on the silver knights, all that did for me, is that now I am very consistent at parrying the silver knights
And only the silver knights
gaunt marten
Well if you know how to parry the silver knights, you know how to parry the black knights. They're the same
random steppe
They all have different weapons and different parry timings
gaunt marten
I am under the impression that for the same weapon type, silver knights and black knights should have the same timings.
random steppe
Maybe with the one that has the one handed sword
Black knights come in very fun variants.
Greataxe, Greatsword, that glaive thing, and the normal sword
gaunt marten
Yes, the sword and spear silver knights are the ones
They also have very clear skeletons, which can teach you the general principle to parrying: Watch the wrist.
random steppe
I was never able to get it, I'm sure people with better timing can get consistent with it.
Luckily it's not necessary to kill them
Also there is no way I ever get consistent with parrying spears in any souls game.
Well except Sekiro because the Mikiri counter was very easy to do.
In DS1 the buckler has the better parry window or that's from the 2nd game onwards? I forget
fresh bane
Yeah that's a good purchase to make
fickle garnet
It's only 20 bucks so yeah I'm probably gonna buy it
gaunt marten
I don't remember. In DS1 there are many parry shields
But I'm not sure if the buckler is one
fickle garnet
Well I'll buy the game if my dad let's me
He just got annoyed at me when I asked even though I'll be spending my own money
fresh bane
It's in spanish but it's hilarious seeing this 
''How did this even happen?''
''That's what I'm saying, well thing is...''
''Japan.''
rough sleet
slim thorn
@wind stump I'm thinking of playing VA-11 Hall-A in the near future, figured I should ask if you'd want to watch enough that it's worth trying to sync schedules
wind stump
I'll pass, but thank you for the offer. I'll be interested in hearing your war stories afterwards.
slim thorn
kk
wind stump
thorny loom
Steam sale starts today as well
gaunt marten
Game is 100% off, BUT
You have to subscribe for the Fanatical newsletter and link your steam account
In order to unsubscribe and unlink you need to click 25-30 different times.
AND you can't unsubscribe from the newsletter entirely through the website. You have to do it through the newsletter itself. (Make sure to mark as spam)
wind stump
Is it a fun game?
gaunt marten
No idea
From the reviews it seems people really like the graphics and music but think the gameplay needs polish
wind stump
well i already own it
gaunt marten
How'd you get it?
wind stump
Had a account already, apparently
visual hill
so I've started playing Metal Gear Racing Enthusia recently and it has an interesting system to encourage you to drive well (not like Gran Turismo where corner-cheesing and blocking opponents is meta :P). It's pretty much Konami's take on a GT-like racing game, and is kind of obscure because it came out a month after GT4
You get "Enthu Points" that you lose on collisions or if you drive off course, and these points are used to multiply how much XP you get when finishing a race (which affects how fast you attain car upgrades)
There's also an odds system for every race, like in betting. If you pick an underpowered car, you get more rewards and can also easily see how much better/worse other cars in the race are, which helps a lot in decision-making. (Press F to pay respects for that VW Beetle)
fresh bane
come on!!
''hey guys here's a little teaser demo for RE4 it's coming out soon!''
''we've already speedran it 10 times and have WR's posted''
RE4 in japanese is interesting though, I don't think the original RE4 had a JP dub
slim thorn
that's one thing I appreciated about the RE2 remake
ended up going with English voices and Japanese subtitles, had a lot of fun comparing them
fresh bane
Sucks that there's no dubs for other languages especially spanish though 
wind stump
nerd
heady bridge
Man this limited edition is great. This whole series has taken up more time than I’d like to admit, so worth it though.
quiet swift
quiet swift
Steam Spring sale's active
fresh bane
I love this new age of mod bullshittery going on
Reminds me of the good ol' 2011 Skyrim days where there was no trace of the original vanilla game
quiet swift
Forspoken's already on sale
wind stump
guess its fate was already
forspoken for
quiet swift
wind stump
fresh bane
Forspoken being on sale will probably do better for the game than worse
One of the factors for why that game failed was the price 
maybe this way they'll actually have some sales
quiet swift
It's a pretty hefty discount too
rose rose
I’ll probably pick it up when it’s cheap enough. Not sure it’s cheap enough yet.
quiet swift
Yeah it would need to be half that for me to get it, I think
untold vigil
it seemed fun, what was the issue aside from the price?
visual hill
TIL a Ford x MGS crossover ad was made back in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMzZRASuQKc
narrow bobcat
Modern games lacking
Simply because you can’t order food on them like you did on the Wii
graceful bridge
mossy flume
Ooo nice
wind stump
oh NO SHE'S OUT FOR VENGENCE
fresh bane
TIL a Ford x MGS crossover ad was made back in 2016: https://www.youtube.com/wat...
Peace Walker also had Mountain Dew unlockable promotional shirts and items
if that commercial was made in 2016 that means David Hayter reprised his role as Snake!
river veldt
i glanced at this and thought it was Doomguy for a hot second
visual hill
if that commercial was made in 2016 that means David Hayter reprised his role as...
he did! Fun fact: he was still on Cameo last time I looked, a service that lets you pay to have a celebrity to say something
light gate
I got it! The last copy at my local walmart lmao.
“Its the last one, you’re lucky!”
visual hill
slim thorn
it seemed fun, what was the issue aside from the price?
what I've heard about Forspoken is that it was just really mid, nothing about it stood out to general audiences, despite a LOT of marketing and a high price tag, so it flopped hard in sales; it's since become a sort of poster child for what's wrong with AAA games these days, perhaps in part because none of it is bad bad but it still epitomizes all those trends we don't like
untold vigil
I see
river veldt
save your money for TotK instead :3
untold vigil
It was one of those games that I wanted to be able to love, because A) it seemed sorta like HZD which I loved and B) I'm really sick of people attaching female protags to games that flop
Pls cap I got money for days
untold vigil
At least
green fulcrum
what I've heard about Forspoken is that it was just really mid, nothing about it...
Hilariously, I recently got an ad for Forspoken calling it "the greatest game of the year". No joke.
fresh bane
HiFi Rush's cast is I want to say half female characters and they're all super unique and fun
untold vigil
I am probably gonna pick it up at some point but I'm saturated atm
untold vigil
HiFi Rush's cast is I want to say half female characters and they're all super u...
Do you play as one?
fresh bane
I wonder if 808 technically counts as protagonist
No the only playable character unfortunately is Chai but you get plenty of assist characters like MVC3 type assists
I wish you could play as Korsica or something but the game mechanics are directly tied to Chai
untold vigil
HZD
fresh bane
Horizon?
untold vigil
We do have that
river veldt
yeah!
slim thorn
there probably are ones that I'm blanking on
in most games I don't care about or notice the protagonist much
river veldt
Part 2 at least
river veldt
Part 2 has 2 female protags 😎
slim thorn
in that vein: Half-Life: Alyx
river veldt
oh right
fresh bane
Alyx was incredible
untold vigil
oh i should get that
slim thorn
there's also a decent number of indie games with female protags, e.g. out of what I've played in the past year Ender Lilies and The Pathless
untold vigil
I didn't have VR when it came out
river veldt
Link can dress as a girl in BotW does that count /j
fresh bane
RE2 and RE3 have female protags too
untold vigil
One of many reasons I like RE
slim thorn
oh right I was just playing RE:CV like ten minutes ago
untold vigil
RE1 too
fresh bane
RE3 is the only one with a strict female protag and not two separate campaigns for a male and female character though
and RE3 is coincidentally the best one in my opinion 
(the original not the remake)
slim thorn
in fact I just hit the "reveal" that CV also has a male protag, after a dozen or so hours as Claire
fresh bane
yeah that one guy I super dislike from that game
untold vigil
I'm sure I've said this before but I seldom buy games that DON'T have a playable girl
(Link and Joker don't count, they're enby)
river veldt
TRUE
minor plover
Aquaria had a female protagonist
empty copper
minor plover
slim thorn
games with non-human protagonists are often ambiguous about gender
untold vigil
. . . That outfit tho
slim thorn
like, was Tunic's fox or Hollow Knight's knight male or female? 
slim thorn
(HK's is even explicitly genderless if you read the lore closely)
untold vigil
Lots of games now have a protag with a unisex name and you pick just. . . the male or female version of the same person
Which is basically the ideal I think
slim thorn
probably because it's been the default in games for too long
untold vigil
It lets you build in a backstory and character for them (and record one take with voice acting for NPCs) but also doesn't lock you in
river veldt
id should make that Doomgal game 😔
untold vigil
Not wrong
river veldt
though if they do istg if they make her design like
untold vigil
The second bloodstained and some castlevania's have femtags
minor plover
Doomgal should be played by the Bobbie Draper actress
slim thorn
I dunno, that's likely to come off as a really cheap attempt at it
river veldt
though if they do istg if they make her design like
hourglass figure and have revealing armour i'll be pissed
slim thorn
that's right I never got an Order of Ecclesia rom
slim thorn
but I'd probably want to play my chosen Castlevania subset in release order anyway so that'd be last
untold vigil
because that one rips
slim thorn
yeah, by the same logic Bloodstained would come last
river veldt
https://www.tumblr.com/captainmario6464/704226336877805568/dukesnukes-the-team-who-made-doom-eternal
slim thorn
how many of the Fire Emblems have female protags? other than Lyn's half of BB
fresh bane
I don't have any specific fixation on female protagonists, I definitely wouldn't not buy a game because it doesn't feature a female protagonists, but I do personally enjoy it more because I just like female characters especially if they're cool
slim thorn
same, but more broadly I like diversity in characters/settings/mechanics/etc because that's just more interesting
river veldt
ye
slim thorn
oh speaking of which: Hellblade Senua's Sacrifice
river veldt
Hat In Time has a fem protag
slim thorn
after all, it is very rare that a game has a legit reason to specifically make its protag unambiguously male, rather than pick one or the other more or less at random (or let the player choose where feasible)
(amusingly, I just played an exception that proves the rule: Spec Ops' cast is all male, presumably because it's deconstructing modern military shooters which usually also have all male casts, and let's face it because the protag's poor decision-making is a masculine kind)
river veldt
Undertale has an ambiguously gendered child and Deltarune has an explicitly enby protag
fresh bane
I don't have any strong opinion on that myself, if a game wants to make its protag unambiguously male for whatever reason that's fine by me, I'd much rather a game stick with one because I usually don't enjoy the RPG-ish approach of choosing your own gender like the AC games are doing right now
I do however like when they do that for multiplayer games like shooters 
like TF2 or Halo where you can pick if you want your character to be male or female
slim thorn
I'd rather that people who do care have the option to choose, in games where it's feasible to provide that
river veldt
TF2 everyone's gender swapped and look different except Pyro who looks exactly the same
slim thorn
many games barely have a story or a protagonist at all so a little customization would be fairly easy
fresh bane
Not that TF2
river veldt
what else could TF2 possibly stand for
fresh bane
Titanfall 2
river veldt
what is that
fresh bane
I'd rather that people who do care have the option to choose, in games where it'...
Sure, it's just I personally don't enjoy it
I never really stopped to think why I guess I just prefer linear storytelling rather than the whole make your own adventure type deal
Although I don't mind it on games like Persona 3
slim thorn
right, I normally enjoy leaving most stuff on its defaults and getting the intended experience or whatever
fresh bane
...but Persona 3 does lock you out of romance routes if you pick the female protagonist 
river veldt
dumb
fresh bane
the only downside
slim thorn
I thought P3 had links and romances that were unique to both genders of protag?
fresh bane
Yeah that's what I said, you can't romance the female characters if you use the female protagonist I believe
slim thorn
right, and vice versa
fresh bane
you can't romance the male characters if you use Minato yeah
slim thorn
(although now that I've seen Tale play it, there is a hilarious amount of shiptease in some of the female social links for female protag)
fresh bane
I never played as the female protag so I wouldn't know but I don't doubt it
river veldt
if there's an option most of the time i go for a female protagonist
i think the only exception is Animal Crossing but that game doesn't really specify gender so
New Horizons i mean
slim thorn
I think I almost never play games that offer that choice, even the RPGs I've played were things like FF and KH and Planescape that have a single clearly defined protagonist character where you only customize the combat stats/equipment
river veldt
Skyrim is the one that jumps to mind for me
slim thorn
a few REs being the biggest exception
river veldt
and everyone in Skyrim is bi! so im not locked out of any romance options
slim thorn
though even if Tale hadn't made the choice for me I probably would've picked more inventory over more health, and grenade launcher over whatever the other thing was
slim thorn
hm, Stanley Parable probably could've been gender neutral
river veldt
hm, Stanley Parable probably could've been gender neutral
if it was gender neutral we wouldn't get extreme gay tension between Stanley and the Narrator
slim thorn
that's true, it's very easy to miss Portal's since IIRC she has no voice lines and is only visible if you do portal tricks to look at yourself (at least in the first game?)
slim thorn
river veldt
that's true, it's very easy to miss Portal's since IIRC she has no voice lines a...
yeah you can use the portals to see Chell in both
funfact
there is an official fursona for Chell
visual hill
Lots of games now have a protag with a unisex name and you pick just. . . the ma...
Minecraft's Alex is pretty interesting, that character was created in a time when doing so wasn't very common
(I get a feeling Mojang did it because they didn't want to upset the playerbase by adding an explicitly female option, though)
but the end result turned up pretty great if you ask me
the skin industry also tumbled over when the thin arms option was added
dire gate
I don't care the protag's gender if I play them as a character
I prefer female protag if I play them as myself
visual hill
I always pick male protags, but there was a short time where I picked female player models if it gave me an advantage in competitive games (in Quake 2 or Urban Terror, because they are a bit harder to spot and make quieter sounds)
fresh bane
visual hill
it's been a loooong time since I've seen a game where choosing a female player model gives you an advantage
unless it's Overwatch and the OP/meta heroes happen to be female 🙂
remembers Zarya when OW2 was just released
slim thorn
when I played the Mass Effects I played male Shepard, I think merely because it was the default without really thinking about it
dire gate
I prefer female protag if I play them as *myself*
For example, I'm fine with playing Link or Cloud
But if I'm playing, let's say MMORPG, I almost always go for female.
fresh bane
Yeah I'd say that's the same for me
river veldt
Link is enby
dire gate
I don't really need female Link, Link is good as he is
fresh bane
Though it mostly comes up with FPS for me and not MMORPGs
visual hill
I remember reading an early 2000s survey about why people picked female characters in games
the "competitive advantage" or "people give me items in MMOs" reasons were quite commonly cited
fresh bane
We all know the real reasons
slim thorn
well, sure, but quantifiably how much was that reason I don't know
visual hill
I no longer have the link to it, that was years ago
fresh bane
This now makes my mind wander into the topic of women in gaming spaces and how ironically enough it would've been pretty hard back in the day to be a woman playing games especially online games, at least that's the impression I get based on my memory
dire gate
heck I choose female even in terraria where the only difference is the voice
visual hill
it was a challenging environment but at the same time, some things actually made it a bit easier. There was no voice chat back then
fresh bane
Even though gamers back in the day were complaining all the time that no women played games
Right, so many women probably played male characters because they just wanted to have a normal game experience
and if you were discovered to be a girl you'd get all sorts of reactions and nuisances
slim thorn
yeah, I remember when I was a teenager and Ctrl+Alt+Del had a running gag about nobody believing the female lead was a gamer too
dire gate
Log Horizon had a character who played as a male character but actually was a female.
minor plover
This now makes my mind wander into the topic of women in gaming spaces and how i...
my wife has some stories to tell on that front...
fresh bane
Actually if I remember correctly a large percentage of players from I think MMORPGs 'back in the day' was mostly females?
Don't quote me on that, I just remember that 'fact' for some reason
minor plover
we went to a LAN party back in 2003 and someone was like "there's a girl here" and she was like "where?" and legit confused because nobody should have been surprised by her presence
slim thorn
one of my favorite trope/generation zig-zag anecdotes is that now that my mom plays games she sometimes expresses bafflement at how many of her fellow players want more romance options with the fictioinal characters 
minor plover
she had a one-strike block policy for most types of harassment
fresh bane
we went to a LAN party back in 2003 and someone was like "there's a girl here" a...
and then gamers in that era wondered why on earth women would never associate with them or play games
it's because you're driving them away dude!
minor plover
she'd end up blocking people for explicit harassment a few times a week, and the community only had maybe a few thousand active players
slim thorn
yeah... when I was that age I had no idea this stuff was even an issue, most of the games were still so new to me I had yet to get meta about any of it (and I never was into multiplayer or other community aspects)
river veldt
yeah, I remember when I was a teenager and Ctrl+Alt+Del had a running gag about ...
:.|:;
slim thorn
then gamergate happened and I found explanations that made sense but also horrified me
dire gate
I remember talking with my roommate
minor plover
she also had requests to date her about once a week, usually from people who had nothing in common with her except the game
dire gate
He asked me "Do you think asking 'Is she Mercy main' when my friend told me 'my girlfriend plays OW' is sexist?"
minor plover
like they just wanted the prestige of dating a gamer girl, and no actual interest in her as a person
river veldt
Gamergate happened when i was in my edgy LeafyIsHere H3H3 phase so idk what it was about
slim thorn
if you want to know I've got a few video essays that cover it quite thoroughly
river veldt
i was 13 cut me some slack :c
fresh bane
H3H3 is considered edgy?
river veldt
back in 2016 yes
fresh bane
He was like the tamest content creator at the time I remember
slim thorn
yeah so was I, and even to adults it was new and baffling at the time, nothing quite like it had happened before
flint iron
Woah hadn't seen leafy's name in years
fresh bane
He asked me "Do you think asking 'Is she Mercy main' when my friend told me 'my ...
''yeah I play league'' ♀️
''so you're a support/adc main right?'' ♂️
fresh bane
like they just wanted the prestige of dating a gamer girl, and no *actual* inter...
Of course
dire gate
''yeah I play league'' ♀️
''so you're a support/adc main right?'' ♂️
"No I play Sett and Darius top"
fresh bane
They think,probably not with malicious intent, that having in common a general activity such as gaming means you're going to instantly connect and be compatible
slim thorn
ok
oh, if you're sure:
the Folding Ideas video on Gamergate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VtjZHC5Qyk
the Innuendo Studios video on Gamergate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLYWHpgIoIw
fresh bane
But they're very mistaken
minor plover
I can't say I was particularly smooth in my approach to her. She actually hated me (I've told this story here before)...
fresh bane
"No I play Sett and Darius top"
I wish Sett got deleted from the game
slim thorn
right, that was a time when gamers still thought of gaming as a niche hobby despite it rapidly becoming anything but
river veldt
oh, if you're sure:
the Folding Ideas video on Gamergate: <https://www.youtube.c...
will i be upset
slim thorn
oh yes
river veldt
oh
fresh bane
right, that was a time when gamers still thought of gaming as a niche hobby desp...
Plenty of people still have that mentality especially with things like anime
They probably don't realize that a lot of women actively avoid to engage in these sorts of spaces due to consistent bad experiences or attitudes from weirdos and they think that gamer women or women who are into anime are super rare and therefore you just can't let her go!
minor plover
I remember after we were married she got TF2 for the first time, and was in VC and some guy just started aggressively harassing her, and I was like "hand me the headset" and I asked the guy why he was talking to my wife like that and he's like "who the fuck are you" and I'm like "the guy who actually gets to do the things you're saying, so why the fuck are you saying them?" and he got all embarrassed and the other guys in chat were like "dude savage" and then that guy left
fresh bane
It's a lot more subdued now thankfully
river veldt
i'll watch these tomorrow
minor plover
really depends on the community. There are places that are still really hostile to women.
slim thorn
I think those people have reduced in number but a lot of what's left have retreated that rhetoric into darker subcommunities that still allow it
fresh bane
Absolutely but in comparison to 2003 it's generally a lot better
dire gate
Plenty of people still have that mentality especially with things like anime
Th...
I mean they are both in a weird position where the core gamers/weebs are starting to get separated
minor plover
there are also places that are not terribly kid-friendly. Like I got an invite to a math server this week and I was going to invite my son but after like 3 minutes on the server I was like "nope, too much explicitly sexual content for a 13 year old"
dire gate
The hobby itself is getting more and more major and popular, but it is becoming two different things
slim thorn
I suppose part of the reason I was never in any risk of falling into these toxic mindsets is that seemingly every girl I knew growing up was into either games or anime or some other "niche" as much or more than I was
the very idea that any of them were a dudes only sausage fest was just 
long before I was conscious of how much toxicity was behind all that
dire gate
For sure we see more people including females joining the trend
slim thorn
heck even my parents had their favorite Ghibli movies when my sibling and I were still teenagers discovering this stuff
fresh bane
The internet in general is extremely not kid friendly which is why I generally don't think kids should have internet access at least not unlimited/unsupervised internet access until they're like, teenagers I guess
I say that having been on the internet unsupervised since I was like 8 years old
slim thorn
(at the time mine was Princess Mononoke and mom's was Howl's Moving Castle)
minor plover
I was "online" when I was pretty young, but it was dial-up BBSs where my dad was friends with the sysadmin
or sysop I guess was the term
dire gate
The problem is that it is already, and will get more and more hard to stop kids from using the internet. So it would be more about how much effort the parents/society put to let them know what to accept and what to not accept from the internet.
green fulcrum
The internet in general is extremely not kid friendly which is why I generally d...
13 at the lowest, I'd say.
minor plover
in the US, 13 is a critical legal limit based on laws about retaining user data
river veldt
(at the time mine was Princess Mononoke and mom's was Howl's Moving Castle)
my fave is Totoro
slim thorn
that tracks
river veldt
which is the basic bitch answer but whatever
minor plover
and I make sure my 13 year old knows that if anyone says inappropriate things to him or sends him anything wrong, uncomfortable, or shady that he should let me or mom know so we can deal with the situation
slim thorn
which reminds me you should try Arietty and I think I said that before 
river veldt
i need to watch Mononoke
mostly because i saw someone compare BOTW to it so now im curious
fresh bane
the very idea that any of them were a dudes only sausage fest was just <a:izzywh...
I definitely believed as a kid that many women just weren't into anime or games in comparison to men and I actually still think that's true but I definitely didn't think that it was only exclusively a boys/men thing, unfortunately I didn't really have many girl friends who were into anime and games so that definitely solidified that in my head
The moment you go into any anime convention or any social event of that sort is when you realize that it's starting to become a lot more equal in that sense
fresh bane
13 at the lowest, I'd say.
Hmmmmm even then I'd think that's a bit too young, kids do stupid shit on the internet man you see it all the time
slim thorn
yeah, I did believe there was a correlation, and that much was likely correct, but I was probably unaware of to what extent it's true mostly because of how exclusionary the content and communities often are, not because men and women "are just like that" 
dire gate
It is bold for you to think that you can stop a kid around 13 from using internet.
fresh bane
I definitely think it's just a case of how boys and girls are raised and the kind of stuff they're told and exposed to, at least thats what I thought when I was younger but I don't know how things are like now
slim thorn
when I was that age, it was reasonable to think you could
dire gate
It's a very, very complicated matter.
slim thorn
but stuff has changed since then
dire gate
For example, you will see 90% female if you go for BL manga event
heck it may be even higher than 90%
river veldt
what is that
dire gate
Boys Love, so basically gay
fresh bane
gae
river veldt
oh
fresh bane
Plenty of women are generally into that stuff
slim thorn
I like it when Japan makes up slang that's an acronym of English words which no English speakers are using
fresh bane
slim thorn
another one you might hear is OL = office lady
fresh bane
Or when a japanese word is just an english word but wrong /s
slim thorn
like, why
river veldt
office lady Celly :)
dire gate
You go look for playerbase of Ensemble Stars, and it's very dominantly female
I do think a lot of time they are...polarized
fresh bane
Hamburger 🙅
ハンバーガー (hanbaagaa) 
slim thorn
Or when a japanese word is just an english word but wrong /s
mansion and tension are my favorite cases of this
a lot of the others aren't too hard to sort out in context but those two are just evil to English speakers
dire gate
Pasocon
slim thorn
appli
dire gate
Magudo
slim thorn
oh speaking of weird mixed-lang lingo
fresh bane
mansion and tension are my favorite cases of this
I assume it's Manshon and Tenshon?
slim thorn
yeah
one time I watched someone from Japan playing a CoD game's campaign, and you know how there's usually a character with "Follow" above their head for the whole level? they called that guy "foro-san"
fresh bane
dire gate
Unironically
While I find it kind of funny how Japanese people read English words, I am too used to it at this point that I don't find it too weird
It's like "yeah"
fresh bane
I was looking through Devil May Cry 5's extra bonus list which are some bonuses you get after finishing missions and doing certain specific things and literally almost all of them in japanese are just the same english word but in katakana only a couple of them are unique to japanese with a different name
Like one of them being named 'Tower wrecker' in JP and 'David and Goliath' in EN
slim thorn
I'm constantly bouncing between hilarious, fascinating and well duh
often all three at the same time because brains are weird
dire gate
It's also probably because I am not a native English speaker
So I am like "I mean doesn't that just...happen? When you change words between languages?"
slim thorn
it also makes me a lot more conscious of what we do with the words of every other language I don't speak
like "salsa"
fresh bane
To be fair in spanish we usually do the same thing
Using modern english words or verbs and stuff like that especially relating to new technology, but it's not even close to being as pronounced as in Japan
English might as well be part of the Japanese language with how much English they use
dire gate
Which makes them one of the few countries that use the word soccer
flint iron
A lot of english words are just casually used in japanese games, theres common ones like start, life, game and lose
dire gate
tbf at certain point many languages gave up inventing new words for newer concepts
flint iron
Yeah that's true
slim thorn
I'm not sure they ever were inventing new words for most concepts; most of the etymologies I hear seem to be that X borrowed Y five hundred years ago and then because of how Y works this bit changed
dire gate
Well if they share a common ancestral language or something, sure
fresh bane
A lot of english words are just casually used in japanese games, theres common o...
Most JP games use a lot of English for menus and interface elements like that
dire gate
But like
I feel like while we still make a lot of new words
A lot of languages now straight up share words
Especially for technology stuff
slim thorn
agreed, globalization definitely had that effect
dire gate
Even Chinese has a whole set of words that doesn't mean anything but they are pronounced like English words.
fresh bane
Yes but again it's not done to the same extent as Japanese especially considering this isn't really a new thing from Japan
It just ends up being more prominent there in comparison to other countries
dire gate
Japan do love using a lot of English words for sure
Heck they have a whole set of letters just for foreign words
...mostly
slim thorn
"it's complicated"
dire gate
For sure, if we want to dive deeper, we have to segregate "loanwords" and "foreign words"
fresh bane
I wonder what historical event might have caused this
dire gate
Like Cider is a funny case, as it means "Lemon-Lime Soda" in Korea and Japan.
But the word itself is so obviously from, well, Cider
dire gate
Bread is called Pan in both Korea and Japan, and it is known that it's directly from Portuguese.
fresh bane
Yeah Pan is the word for bread here too
slim thorn
to be fair, the precise meaning of "cider" is a complete mess even in English
fresh bane
I remember finding this out from Nichijou where the character Yuuko eats a melonpan
slim thorn
when I was first learning Japanese "pan" weirded me out because I already knew it from Spanish
how silly of me to only be expecting English loanwords
fresh bane
Contrary to what the name might suggest, it is not in fact made with melons or melon flavored
dire gate
It looks like Melon
fresh bane
Therefore it must be named after melons
dire gate
Probably two most famous pans for weebs are melonpans and choco colones
quiet swift
Melonpan!
slim thorn
one thing that I really wasn't expecting is that, after English, the most common source of loanwords always written in katakana was... German
a very very distant second I can only provide a handful of examples for, but still more than e.g. Spanish
quiet swift
fresh bane
one thing that I really wasn't expecting is that, after English, the most common...
yeah I can see that
though a lot of german words can sound very english like
and when you run that by the japanese filter where it all gets turned into hiragana/katakana it's basically indistinguishable sometimes
dire gate
Kalium, Natrium
slim thorn
mm-hmm, it's not always clear which language the source was, especially for a word like pan
dire gate
Korea also used Kalium and Natrium until pretty recently, so I am more used to calling Potassium and Sodium that way
slim thorn
in fact, I think it was via Japanese that I learned most languages refer to Germany as some variation of Deustch, because I was so lost when some anime kept saying "doitsu" and I had no idea how that meant Germany
dire gate
Japan still uses カリウム and ナトリウム
slim thorn
now there's one I almost never see
fresh bane
I wonder if this changed because I never hear it as 'maisuta' and oftentimes it's just 'masta/masuta'
dire gate
When they use Meister differs with just Master
fresh bane
apparently most of the german loanwords are scientific/medical terms
Probably why I never hear a lot of german loanwords to begin with
slim thorn
masutaa is definitely more common, I only hear meister (in English or Japanese) when there's some special extra context, like I think music sometimes favors meister?
yep, the German one I hear most often in anime is karte = chart, referring to someone's medical chart
dire gate
Yes, and since Korea was under Japan for 35 years, Korea also shares a lot of those German loanwords.
So I am very familiar with those words
We call casts (the medical one) gibs/gips
ギブス
fresh bane
And from this chart I saw they don't say 'bandages' but instead 'gaze'
we call them gasas here too
slim thorn
ooooh I forgot all about that one
fresh bane
Yeah meruhen
slim thorn
derp, I forgot that was german
fresh bane
Energy is one of those where it's indistinguishable from german
🇯🇵 Enerugii - 🇩🇪 Energie - 🇺🇸 Energy
quiet swift
Isn't it something like Baito in Japanese? At least that's how i heard it in japanese media
quiet swift
Naruhodo
fresh bane
I love it when japanese people just randomly cut out words for no reason
the one that will always be stuck on my mind is 'sekuhara'
But I'm sure there's more normal examples
slim thorn
oof
dire gate
They do extremely prefer four-letter words
slim thorn
but yes it's very common in Japanese to abbreviate phrases/titles down to 3-4 letters/characters
dire gate
Basically every single Anime/manga becomes four-letter words
They have Sekuhara
And then they also have Pawahara
fresh bane
yeah MonMusu is one that comes to mind where the 'real' name is a lot longer
it's a very weird thing from an outside perspective
slim thorn
I think the first one of those I ran into was Fruits Basket -> Furuba
fresh bane
especially since 4 is an unlucky number right? 
slim thorn
and most recently, Boufuri is short for a sentence-long title
dire gate
4 sounds like death, yes.
slim thorn
shi shi shi shi shi, and so on
dire gate
I think the first one of those I ran into was Fruits Basket -> Furuba
I think Furubasu is more often used.
Apparently the writer officially used Furuba
slim thorn
ah, I probably got it from their atogaki or something
dire gate
If you search Furubasu in Google, it just searches Fruits Basket for you.
And the trend also applies to games
Dragon Quest becomes Dorakue
Final Fantasy is interesting, there are two different ways
Efuefu because it's FF
Or Faifan because obviously
fresh bane
that's adorable
dire gate
More dominant one, and also the official one, is Efuefu
Most of the times, rule of thumb is to grab two letters each from two major words
Tensura Oreimo
Boufuri
slim thorn
it's an incredibly reliable rule
dire gate
However it doesn't work like that sometimes
There are some insane examples like Haganai
The rule there is "If you write down the title, there are only 4 hiraganas in it, so read them in order"
僕は友達が少ない
You can see it.
dire gate
Fun kind-of-related fact: Some of you may know the word Okama, which means mtf crossdresser in Japan. The word Onabe is used for the opposite case, so ftm crossdresser. And then for the internet, they use Netkama and Netnabe. Those words are used to describe people who fake their gender on the internet.
So Netkama is a male who fakes their gender as female on internet, and Netnabe is a female who fakes their gender as male on internet
It's usually shortened? as Nekama and Nenabe
river veldt
IS THERE A WAY TO REVIVE HORSES
dire gate
river veldt
in BotW
fresh bane
literally never saw that even once in my many playthroughs
river veldt
literally never saw that even once in my many playthroughs
that's why this game is cool :D
thanks Jay
chilly mural
fresh bane
slim thorn
river veldt
https://zelda-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Malanya_Spring
SHES BACK THANK YOU SO MUCH JAY
visual hill
oh @fresh bane, have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKBpgu9XQHI
you can scare the guards away in MGS1 using a second controller
fresh bane
I do vaguely remember hearing about it yeah it's one of those many secret things on MGS games
visual hill
it's apparently a debug feature, since the guard can clip through walls
(probably wouldn't happen if this was intended to be left in)
green fulcrum
Lol, playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I stumble upon a nondescript mountain trail area, so I decide "why not follow it?"
It leads me to a cave with two Dweomercats, and I handle them pretty easily. But then I spot the portal in the back of the cave, and I think to myself, "what the absolute f*ck is that?"
Of course I jump in, and I end up in the First World. First thing that attacks me is a Dweomerlion and three more Dweomercats, and they nearly destroy my entire party, but I manage it nevertheless. They're guarding a body that has armor waaaaaaaaay beyond what I'm using right now.
...I don't think I was meant to be here just yet, lol.
slim thorn
nice, that sounds like one or two sidequests I had in Planescape
untold vigil
I got most of the way through kingmaker but i really stalled out on the final stretch
Tis a good game
gaunt marten
And it's the perfect time to pick it up
70% off
It's time for me to do some spring sale shopping. What do I want to buy?
gaunt marten
Maybe when it's selling for five dollars
I typically buy games when the discounts stop getting deeper, not when the game starts getting discounted
river veldt
pepsi mnan
gaunt marten
I already own that one
random steppe
I'll probably buy this one: https://store.steampowered.com/app/774201/Heavens_Vault/
random steppe
It kinda looks very neat, with finding out language and shit
gaunt marten
Yeah, it's been in my list for years!
slim thorn
haven't heard of this one
river veldt
Flitter have you played Dusk
gaunt marten
I have no interest
river veldt
aw
random steppe
Retro shooters aren't for me, but it looks neat
gaunt marten
It's just got too many particles and not enough HUD
river veldt
you can adjust the hud
gaunt marten
Then they should put that in the trailer
river veldt
that would be a weird thing to focus on i think
random steppe
TBH I didn't play many old shooters in the 1st place, so I'd probably have to fix that before going to get nostalgic about them
gaunt marten
No, they should put literally any HUD in the trailer
river veldt
o
gaunt marten
TBH I didn't play many old shooters in the 1st place, so I'd probably have to fi...
Classic Doom is the best most accessible ones because it gets sane modern maps
slim thorn
I didn't start gaming until the PS2 era, so every "old shooter" I've played was me actively seeking out an older game like the original Half-Life or Deus Ex or Marathon
weirdly I never got around to the original Dooms when I was in that mood
river veldt
i mean yeah me too
slim thorn
and after 2016 + Eternal I've apparently had my fill of that style anyway
river veldt
i didn't even exist when Doom 1, 2, Half Life, or Quake were released
Quake and Super Mario 64 share a sound effect
river veldt
also Dusk let's you have a cool sword and also you fight Nyarlethotep
gaunt marten
I can fight Nyarlethotep in Death's Gambit
slim thorn
oh right, I always forget Quake exists because arena multiplayer never clicked for me
gaunt marten
(Asterisk)
river veldt
why is Oregon Trail 18 dollars
river veldt
oh right, I always forget Quake exists because arena multiplayer never clicked f...
aw
Quake is fun
slim thorn
people say that about a lot of games
gaunt marten
Why are you buying Oregon Trail?
river veldt
yeah because games are supposed to be fun
gaunt marten
river veldt
yeah
gaunt marten
It's because Gameloft is greedy
gaunt marten
Yep
gaunt marten
They do a ton of licensed games
gaunt marten
Why would Nintendo license their golden goose when they have their own development Studio and publisher?
gaunt marten
Normally if you want a game to be made but don't have the resources to spare, you strike a deal with someone like Gameloft, giving them a license to make a game based on your thing
You get a cut of the profit.
But if you make the game yourself and publish it, this costs more and you get all the profit
river veldt
what if they licensded it to someone else though