Paris is strong and Dafran pulls dumb shit they can exploit
#esports-discussion
low crag
pearl stratus
No, no its not. Their Supports still have issues.
Especially if they keep trying to run Dogman.
upper niche
Paris will probably be in prod this week when Lunar ends, and then be in comp 2 weeks after. That's usally the pattern.
trim shadow
Its more keeping dafran from tapping into his dps hyper aggresive senses
pearl stratus
Who panic ulted, yet again, today.
cedar drum
My mind was blown was Kruise
What a god on lucio
Maybe the best Lucio in the league right now?
trim shadow
Dont forget kodak
cedar drum
Maybe.....
pearl stratus
I'm not.
But so far they've split time for them.
No reason to assume they'd magically stop.
trim shadow
Its between biggoose and kruise for best lucio
Biggoose has been really fucking consistent on lucio
pearl stratus
You're both forgetting IDK.
cedar drum
Biggoose is nutty
pearl stratus
Who enables Ria's GIANT bombs for Spark.
low crag
Biggoose was really good today
cedar drum
How can a guy so slow looking irl be fast in game
pearl stratus
There's a LOT of good Lucios this year though, which is hype.
Even losing team Lucios look good.
low crag
Its a bait and switch @cedar drum
pearl stratus
Like Boink has been putting on shows too.
cedar drum
Like....I'm not making fun of his body, his face just looks like....he is sleepy always, like snorlax
@low crag They did it to us. Didn't they? :'(
trim shadow
But thats because ria is a robot with human skin he is not human the way he plays dva
cedar drum
Dafran sound so happy and upbeat
The owner of Atlanta might have legit changed this guy's life
pearl stratus
The big differences between teams isn't their Lucios.
cedar drum
By going out of his way to pick him up
pearl stratus
It's their Zens
trim shadow
Atlanta has said one of their prioritys is mental health
cedar drum
That guy they have
trim shadow
So dafran probably has a fat paycheck
cedar drum
Who manages players
trim shadow
Andd hes getting great support
cedar drum
He sounds so on top of shit
trim shadow
And it showed against the mayhem and fusion
low crag
Theres something about Dafrans face that just makes me mad
cedar drum
Like he forces everyone to drink 3+ bottles of water in the team everyday
For better health
trim shadow
He is danish...danish right?
pearl stratus
I think right now the best team for mental health is probably Seoul, even though they're l;osing some.
trim shadow
Most euros are cocky
low crag
More water means better mental health duh
cedar drum
Yeah dafran
trim shadow
caugh benbest
pearl stratus
Gen GG is developing a HUGE program just for that.
pearl stratus
It's better for mental too in terms of avoiding energy drinks and shit.
trim shadow
Is it fuji water?
low crag
No Voss
cedar drum
Dallas also has some good shit going
pearl stratus
Since ice cold water wakes you up and makes you more alert than a Red Bull.
trim shadow
quick send a shipment to the shanghai team house
cedar drum
They all eat food on a dinner table
pearl stratus
Dallas needed it after their nightmare last year.
low crag
Thats honestly huge
trim shadow
I cant imagine the dallas fuel dinner after the shock walked on em
pearl stratus
Because last year was just shit and a half.
trim shadow
And everyone looking at zach like “you blew it”
low crag
Having some structure and good food can do wonders
cedar drum
@trim shadow The way Jayne was dancing later that day behind the analysts desk
pearl stratus
Mickie going on Twitter to ask people to stop making fun of Zach
cedar drum
I feel like they expected the loss
minor flame
Mickie
cedar drum
They went into it expecting a loss
minor flame
is best player
trim shadow
To be fair the shock on paper look unstoppable
minor flame
in non
cedar drum
That's why they all seemed fine with it
minor flame
playing sense
trim shadow
And then they sandbagged it against the gladiators
cedar drum
Btw, we all stan AKM now?
low crag
Love AKM
cedar drum
Man...i wanna go and shit on sideshow. I was in his chat yesterday and said AKM looked the best in the first game on that team.
He automatically assumed i am 'One of those people' who saw some thread on Reddit with AKM's stats
So think he was doing better
Then gave a whole lecture and shit....based on blind assumptions
cedar drum
No, that might be.
But i just said he looked better. Not based on what.
He just assumed i saw some stats pic and basing my opinion on that.
In reality i was basing my opinion from what I saw of him during the game, he was doing his job, little to no mistakes.
fiery charm
trim shadow
Effect needs a dps meta to shine
cedar drum
Some really chill and cool people here.
trim shadow
I doubt effecrs zarya will improve
I remember his summer streams he absolutely hated goats
cedar drum
Btw.....what does Taimou even does on this roster anymore.
Taimou just tweets while they play?
trim shadow
Maybe hes the tviq of the team
cedar drum
He plays hitacan
So does effect, akm, and Zacharee was paying widow today too. So he can too.
Mccree, AKM is probably equally good if not better.
Same with effect
What does Taimou even play?
trim shadow
Ik taimou for his mcree play
Like apex days taimou was the premier mcree
Just like how effect was the premier tracer
Akm was also known for his mcree and widow
cedar drum
I saw Taimou streaming a month or two ago, had like 60-70% accuracy on Mccree, carrying his team like crazy.
Headshot after headshot
But still, Akm is known to be a Mccree specialist too.
trim shadow
Taimou probably isnt a good flexer for the current meta
So maybe thats why hes riding the bench
cedar drum
Even if specialist heroes are needed
Effect and AKM are probably equally good widows or better
And they can play other hitacan great tok
They should give Taimou to a team that needs a hitscan for the betterment of both parties involved
tired mango
gaunt acorn
@tired mango huh? no
chips left dallas not long after s1 concluded
september, i believe
torpid charm
toxic pasture
I miss chips :(
karmic grotto
Actually what the heck
Dallas beating Seoul 3-1
Losing 4-0 From Shock
Then Shock losing from Gladiators
OWL in a nutshell
toxic pasture
Scripted
silk linden
Man the league looks mad balanced
Older teams not picking up the pace, newer teams coming in with lots of preparation, and hard set meta
Except for Shanghai, poor bastards
sharp kindle
Lmao shanghai bites the dust yet again only won 1 pre season game that was mystery heroes
balmy wolf
can ya get tokens on reruns?
wait thats a dumb question nvm
booing goats is 10/10
for those that didnt see it
cedar drum
Is Izayaki the only Japanese player in the league?
forest raven
Izayaki is Korean @cedar drum
forest raven
Eileen is the name of a Chinese player
He was on Foxes back in Korea, was called Need then
cedar drum
His real name is proper Korean
And he is from Korea
Hmm....why is his in-game name Japanese.
Anyway, are there any Japanese players in the league?
forest raven
Nope
cedar drum
I saw that R6 thing
This team reached semis
Which is rare for Japanese gamers, to do well in pro FPS scene
Kinda mind blowing that there aren't any Japanese players in the league, with how big gaming and tech is in Japan.
But I guess it's mostly consoles
forest raven
Ye
Also a player using a name from another country isn't new
Chengdu has two players called Garry and Elsa
cedar drum
Yeah
But like American and western names
That's more understandable
Cause of entertainment media
Well then....I guess Japanese is too
Cause anime
Makes sense
upper niche
Michelle is the one that gets me... but it's not spelled that way from memory
forest raven
Nah it's spelled Michelle
karmic grotto
Michelle sounds like a girl name
forest raven
It is a girl's name
karmic grotto
but he's a boy
🤔
on the other hand
nenne sounds like a girl name so I can't judge
sullen berry
Eileen best pro egril
When charge lost against the hunters he took to weibo like any of the disappointed players that aren't mayhem or dragons
“I wanted to be a part of this great stage since it was born, and I was so excited to play in front of the fans. But I messed up, might because it’s the first time I’m on stage.
My stomach wasn’t feeling so good since the 3rd match, but I wanted to keep playing for my team, also for myself. However, I was wrong and I still have too much things to learn. I’m apologizing to my teammates, they’re trying so hard to win the game.
I’m not afraid of losing games, I’ll keep forward and learn from it for the rest of the matches.
Sorry GZ fans. Thank you so much for watching and cheering for us, we will win next time! “
sleek zephyr
@lavish zenith Muma not jake lmfao
sullen berry
You can see some really great tank warfare from this week
Wrecking Ball v wrecking Ball in Charge vs Hunters matches
Hammer downs with NYXL and Uprising
More notable is Roar and Fissue
And how about OGE vs Fissure?
Seoul vs Hunters should be a very exciting matchup
It will be their first big clash with a Goats-heavy team
desert salmon
I'm still a little bit shocked that Seoul lost to Dallas
Seeing as Dallas got 4-0 by SF Shock...
main swan
karmic grotto
And still
You know
ATL vs Fusion
Close game
You can't just imagine a team that's been established a few months ago nearly won against Fusion, Grand Finalist and a team that's been playing for more than a year with each other
ATL may have been good boi by going Torbjorn Orisa in that map against Goats for a moment
Like they know their chances of winning are higher if they went Goats but decided not to
Until after 60% of capture point
sage finch
What time will the game starts?
drowsy fulcrum
reminder that there are no good US players in OWL and they're all there because the US can't stand being left out
if they were all replaced with EU/KR players the general level of play would increase
karmic grotto
They don't always have to win
twin cobalt
ancient vessel
yeah Eternal looks like a crazy team
karmic grotto
If wonder if you perform easily against weaker teams
junior glacier
Few comments about the images above: each box on the image represents one team and the team player performance distribution with respect to K/D ratio (upper) and 'score' (lower). Score is something that takes K/D ratio, ultimates, damage done, healing, and final blows into account (it is not official score of any sort). By looking at the figures, one can make comparisons between the teams. The team on the right side are better in terms of player performance; however, it is clearly not a winning-factor. For example, LA Valiants player performance is on top level, but the team still lost their match. Please, fell free to ask me more comments. EDIT: grammar. EDIT2: However, such comparison as this is un-biased and fair at the end of each stage when each teams have more matches played.
karmic grotto
What I've seen is that it depends how well a match goes that determines your performance
fleet walrus
Does anyone think Washington/Shanghai could best London
karmic grotto
outer vapor
@junior glacier Have you looked at how best performing player relates to winrate?
Altho we'd probably have to wait a while for thay
vernal obsidian
I feel that if brig's stun duration gets reduced enough, dive meta could start coming back.
They have to make it as short as mccree's flash bang.
junior glacier
@outer vapor Yes I have. Interestingly, any player performance measure does not seem to correlate 1-to-1 with winrate. For example, Seol Dynasty K/D performance is superior to Hangzhou Spark, yet HZS won both of their matches whereas SEO lost one of theirs. Now, just by looking at the player performance measure, the SEO should have won both of their matches easily. Then again, looking at the far ends, Washington and New York Excelsior for example, the player performance seems to be quite accurate in terms of 'prediction'. EDIT: grammar.
outer vapor
That's very interesting. I assume there's a lot of hidden variables you can't account for that might play a role. Even simple things like hours of sleep before a match etc. might cause unexpected results
junior glacier
I believe you are corret about the underlying factors, and after all, one critical C9-like mistake (due to sleep deprivation / bad call, for example) can tip the scale to the favor of the 'underdog'. EDIT: grammar.
mint slate
gladiators <3
wild gale
Hey guys, do you need a battlenet acct to get the tokens?
mint slate
why would you not need one
wild gale
I'm on console
sleek zephyr
I think you can link your psn or xb live
wild gale
Thank you!!
fast flame
Do you guys think london is going to flop in stage 1?
limber pine
uh yes
torpid charm
@wild gale to get tokens, you have to have a Bnet account linked to your game & through the Twitch app on your PlayStation. Then you link your Bnet account to your Twitch app.
wild gale
It works with Xbox too right?
limber pine
even if london wins the next 5 against 
, map score won't be in their favor
torpid charm
@wild gale I’d assume it works the same way for Xbox, not entirely sure
wild gale
Thanks!
limber pine
as what
karmic grotto
@fathom acorn if ATL can fix their positioning mistakes and midfight micro plays
then yes
also
They sucked at escort and hybrid
If they won one of those maps
They would have won 3-1
fathom acorn
They beat the fusion who came second last year
limber pine
who
fathom acorn
And the fusion beat London this year (even though in their current state that’s not much of a compliment)
Atlanta
limber pine
atlanta lost to philly bro
limber pine
3 - 2
forest raven
Atlanta lost to philly on map 5, round 3 99-100 with a rein that hit maybe 3 shatters the entire series
karmic grotto
He's not wrong
Pokpo
Needs to do better
ATL could have won actually ez from Fusion
But those little things
get punished
and not rewarded
forest raven
This is what Sado did to Pokpo https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyDifferentPepperOhMyDog
fathom acorn
I guess I must’ve tuned in right at the end and saw that Atlanta was about to win and assumed they did
I wasn’t able to watch as much as I usually do
karmic grotto
You even saw Volskaya? Daco took a weird positioning, gets isolated, to the right, meanwhile philly with their squad attacking ATL while Daco nearly unmeched
position mistake
He didn't went back
I asked myself, why are you going there?
fathom acorn
Huh
Well, if Atlanta can fix the problems they’re currently having through the season by the end they should be top
karmic grotto
Still we think ATL will end top 6
That's also fine
But we never know
Dallas beat Dynasty 3-1
who would have imagined that
limber pine
ATL's remaining week 1 schedule is 
fathom acorn
Dallas winning was insane
limber pine
Paris is the one game I'd say they aren't favored in
fathom acorn
Paris is gonna take that one
limber pine
LAG is a push
fathom acorn
They’re goats is currently one of the best
karmic grotto
That's what they said about Fusion
And look
ATL nearly won from top 2 grand finalist
It might be the same
Paris wins
map 5
99-99
limber pine
yeah the season is just too young to call some of these
fathom acorn
Once the league can finally properly counter goats Paris is probably gonna go down a bit
limber pine
well, if goats goes away, then the teams with carry dps will be better
karmic grotto
^
limber pine
even NYXl doesn't look totally comfortable in this meta
!schdule NYE
!schedule NYE
somber yewBOT
Developed with LOVE by MoonFire
limber pine
fathom acorn
Battle net account?
fathom acorn
You use your battlenet account to get overwatch for PC
You can’t link it to Xbox I believe
limber pine
!schedule
somber yewBOT
Developed with LOVE by MoonFire
trim shadow
I see that shanghai upset
sharp kindle
Philly is gonna kick Florida’s ass
limber pine
probably
sharp kindle
Lmao
limber pine
Thursday's matches should be easy to predict, but you never know
sharp kindle
Yeah I’d be surprised and pissed if Florida won
torpid charm
I would also be surprised and pissed
sharp kindle
Xd
torpid charm
I just wanna see Shanghai win soon 
sharp kindle
Maybe sometime they will but I get a feeling they aren’t gonna win for a while
limber pine
!schedule SHD
somber yewBOT
Developed with LOVE by MoonFire
sharp kindle
I heard Boston is pretty good rn
limber pine
Boston is outperforming predictions
torpid charm
I wasn't able to watch either of the Shanghai games this past week sadly but I know that Boston is getting back into the groove so I don't think they got it
sharp kindle
^
limber pine
Shanghai had no main tank for game 1
sharp kindle
Oml
torpid charm
I'll give it to Boston because they keep having this bullshit happen to them and someone still manage to pull through
limber pine
they were playing YoungJin at main tank for a bit
torpid charm
I did hear about that, Gamsu got to play against Vancouver right?
limber pine
yes
but they looked okay
they'll fair better out of a GOATS meta I think
Diem has a really good widow
and tracer
sharp kindle
The goats makes games last a while, I usually see the teams switch to a dps comp and would win but they always suddenly decide to switch back to goats
Makes it a bit boring, bunch of solo gravs and a big ult fest
mental cliff
sharp kindle
I get a good feeling for poko
sweet wolf
like the times that we do see dps though they pop off like hotba for was playing out of his mind on busan
sharp kindle
Yeah I agree
balmy wolf
akm gets put on brigitte
sharp kindle
Dogman also keeps getting left behind and picked
sweet wolf
also jayne was hyping up dallas and oof them v shock was just a kick in the chest
torpid charm
The Zen bullying is real out here
sweet wolf
oh my god yes
sharp kindle
Xd
drowsy fulcrum
pogman
sharp kindle
Xd
balmy wolf
I dont mean to sound racist, but all the members of the London Spitfire Team aren't British
limber pine
and?
all of Paris isn't french
all the us teams aren't all american
There's only one team (Seoul) that's composed of all of their own nationality
solar dagger
I think we knew that @limber pine
limber pine
not the guy I replied to
pearl stratus
@limber pine Chengdu.
silk fjord
pogman bad
limber pine
@pearl stratus Baconjack
mint slate
can someone explain to me xqc things
he like joined the gladiator team
but is he going to play in the league?
and whats with the sentinels
limber pine
He’s on Gladiators Legion
torpid charm
He’s signed with Gladiators Legion which is LA Glads Academy team
mint slate
so thats different than the la gladiators overwatch league team
bitter peak
Random question but why are most flex dps on zarya most games
harsh tulip
Because they have to play a non dps hero for goats so Zarya is typically a good choice to put them on
And she is mostly aim
pearl stratus
@limber pine Thats a tough one though. Because China would say Taiwan is part of China.
I guess we can argue the gray area.
limber pine
Yeah I try not to get into the politics of it. I only say because liquipedia lists it separately
pearl stratus
I think it still makes Chengdu all Chinese. I don't want to delve into PRC vs. ROC and all that though, so it can go either way lol
limber pine
We’ll put an asterisk next to chengdu then
pearl stratus
Yeah, especially since I think Taiwan has its own World Cup team too, so its all fucky.
limber pine
Either way, my original point stands
pearl stratus
Yeah all regions are a rarity.
Actually the world cup is really weird. Taiwan and Hong Kong get independent teams. Even Blizzard doesn't want to deal with politics.
limber pine
yeah I added Chinese Taipei flair for OWWC to the sub and people got their panties in a bunch
and I said "all I'm doing is what Blizzard is doing. go yell at them"
balmy wolf
Is it ok I like the Washington justice although there not doing so well since this is there first season
balmy wolf
I like overwatch league some people don't which is meh
limber pine
Washington is my hometeam so I like them either way
silk fjord
I just bought ow league tokens like an incel
karmic grotto
yes you are incel, well said
silk fjord
you play ow you're an incel let's face it
pulsar cave
can anyone tell me how to get the tokens for watching the matches?
thick plover
Do you think i could be in the league some day?
ruby pendant
@thick plover That's up to you, just make sure you have backup plan.
trim shadow
it wouldve been easier when the game first launched
but now a days you gotta go through open division
and then survive that to get into contenders
balmy wolf
it was even harder back then tho
to even get recognition
now its all centralized
if you have no physical handicap, the ONLY difference between you and the overwatch league players is time put into the game
trim shadow
i would say its harder now because everything is established
and theres thousands of players gunning to join a overwatch leauge time
i wanted to join atlanta at one point
since im from atlanta
im almost praying that atlanta does what nyxl is trying to do and recruit local talent
balmy wolf
nyxl isnt doing that, their contenders team xl2 is doing that
and i tried out for it, the average sr i saw was 4.3-4.4kish
trim shadow
there are some good players stuck in like gold and plat
limber pine
houston isn't bad
coral copper
0-2
limber pine
just average
balmy wolf
there really arent lol
coral copper
rawkus throwing
limber pine
the issue is that Houston has like no flexibility
outside of Muma
and maybe Danteh, but they don't let him flex
trim shadow
houston is just another team that will suffer in stage 1 as long as goats is the main meta
limber pine
yup
thick plover
I want to be the greatest player ever...
trim shadow
muma is inconsistent as hell though
he played hammond and winston like a god
and then fell when he went onto rein
limber pine
My point is that Muma is the least of Houston's problems
coral copper
ye
rawki jaki are problematic at time
linkzi is inconsistent
danti is pretty good
spreei is not in full form
coolimatti is ok
boinki is pretty good
they didnt play banii that much
trim shadow
boink has been the only consisten player on the team
pearl stratus
For season 2 more than Boink have been consistent.
People want to meme him because they have the game knowledge of a Silver.
But Jakes been fine the two games he played, just not played enough.
He's another good chunk of their flex they're not using over Linkzr, so far.
We've seen him in... 3 maps and he's played Pharah, McCree, Sombra, Junkrat, Brig. And done perfectly fine on all of them.
As for Spree vs. Coolmatt, just a difference in D'va playstyles imo.
Spree doesn't play passive, its not in his nature.
So its similar to watching Mano v. Janus on NYXL
The team has to adjust to his style, and don't do it as well.
upbeat marsh
im actually surprised paris went 3-1 against london
balmy wolf
London can't play GOATS, and EU are the kings of GOATS.
Paris will do well this stage but will likely suffer if GOATS usage drops off in future stages.
molten saddle
trim shadow
london benefitted from the dive comp
they just have those individual epic players
birdring and profit
coarse yoke
ok so seoul beat dallas, but then lost to the shock. Glads lost to seoul but beat shock...hmmmm
(obviously I know this doesn't always work like this but still)
So when Dallas vs Gladiators its going to be an interesting game
slow walrus
yeah this confused me to
super/sleepy posted on twitter about it I think
something about 50/50 enforced lul
Twitter
forest raven
That's a meme
coarse yoke
oh wow, yeah its weird though if you think about it
I mean they have different play styles but still Its just so fascinating to me
hidden vault
icy dove
akm>effect
hidden vault
Now we know where logix went
rare sable
the goats kind of annoyed me in reign/mayhem game- probably a bit too late to be talking about it but jeez
trim shadow
akm and effect are both great at there position
sharp kindle
Dogman=Dogshit
ember nymph
Lmaoo... Noo I think he's okay
Lol not the best but mehh
I think Pokpo is below average
They need to find a replacement for him and they should do fine. All in all that was one of the best overwatch matches since NYXL Quad tank Horizon.
limber pine
like gator
limber pine
he's their two-way player
sharp kindle
dogman actually isn't that bad he just kept getting left behind or singled out then picked off
I still don't get that game where he was all the way at enemy spawn at dorado lmao that was a huge feed and stagger
copper solstice
Was pokpo the main tank or dva? Because erster as dva i thought was good even though he is DPS but that is just my own opinion.
vagrant cargo
Pokpo is a better monkey than rein tho
upper niche
@trim shadow Yeah but fast-forward a few months, London won't be part of the EU 😛
silk dawn
give pok some time
especially dogman
hes been on the team for a week or so
he has some pogmoments though
got a few 2ks in the game
ember nymph
London will bounce back
Definitely do not underestimate them, they are weird, this could all be apart of their plan.
They always have a slow start Strong finish type of season.
mellow vigil
Am i the only one who finds owl really boring thanks to all the goats
balmy wolf
only because the matches are faster
cedar drum
I really like Goats V Goats, especially when it's either really refined perfect goats v goats or really scuffed Goats v Goats with teams making mistakes left and right.
Unpopular opinion, I know
But to me, seeing a cool widow shot for the 500th isn't much fun
limber pine
Like all things, it’s good in moderation
I like goats too, but I understand people not wanting to see it 80% of the time
sharp kindle
I just don’t like it cause it’s usually just one big ult fest to win a fight rather than actual skill or they solo grav someone most of the time, it’s fine once and a while but when almost all the games is goats is gets boring and keeps games going for longer than it should imo
I only like goats because it does teamwork and coordination to pull off
viral ibex
To be honest I would enjoy watching it more if the teams didn't rely on it so heavily?
sharp kindle
^
viral ibex
There would be times when a Sombra would walk around a little bit (I assume to scout?) and then she would teleport right back to spawn and switch to Brigitte
And normally the ultimates are always used in the same way
sharp kindle
Yeah, when they have a dps comp that is working they always run back and switch back to goats for no reason
viral ibex
Grav or Earthshatter is used first, D.Va bomb is used on top of them, and Lucio/Zen ults are used to counter these attacks
Rally is usually used to engage
sharp kindle
Yeah
viral ibex
It gets boring to watch game after game
sharp kindle
Right?
balmy wolf
for those of you worried about goats
ptr pugs are like 50% goats rn
and its steadily declining
viral ibex
Well, this new armor change is supposed to nerf GOATS, right?
pearl stratus
The PEMDAS changes yes.
The actual armor changes themselves are already live.
And nerfed things like dive more than goats.
balmy wolf
the problem is you cant "nerf" goats
you can play lucio/zen/ana with 3 tanks and it would still work
balmy wolf
hell it even works for my playoffs
pearl stratus
Dynasty, Shock, Fuel and... one other team ran a Brigitte-less goats.
Because Brigitte isn't the issue, its just healing.
Unless you're plat chat.
Then the answer is always #deletebrig because dumpster IQ.
viral ibex
I don’t think nerfing Brig even more would solve anything relating to GOATS
pearl stratus
It wouldn't. Nor would armor, nor would tank ults.
Until you can find a way, thats balanced, to nerf how much healing three supports do it will always be a viable comp.
balmy wolf
heres the problem (and why "NERF GOATS" is a STUPID statement) is that the three healers used are very low heals already
but together they heal like 30 hp/s constantly
16 from lucio (no one amp heals), 16 from brig, and rein usually gets extra 30 per second from zen
so you have extremely close quarters team with extremely close quarters healing
not to mention massive close quarters damage
the nerfs against specifically brig were meant to help brig not be so monumentally overpowered in 1v1 fights
pearl stratus
Also because the passive healing is so high you're easily able to slot the two most important ults in the game - Trans and Beat.
karmic grotto
what ult is most OP?
balmy wolf
trans by a mile
karmic grotto
I would say Trans becuz of healing, i mean you can use sombra EMP
but Trans heals everything
pearl stratus
I don't even think nerfing them is useful as this point, I think providing comparable ults on other roles would be nice. But then you'd just stack them with Trans/Beat.
balmy wolf
you have enough timing to hit Q for zen
suhpoze showed this in contenders trials
i dont have a problem with beat drop tbh
pearl stratus
yeah its not like ladder where you can juke a Trans by hopping at a Zen and watching them panic.
balmy wolf
it has its own risk with timing and can be used for a variety of situations, like initiations
but with trans
q to win
pearl stratus
It's also -completely- neutered by Sombra, whereas Trans is not.
balmy wolf
that too
pearl stratus
Not that you'd often EMP to cancel a Beat.
But you can get double bonus if the timing lines up for your initiation
balmy wolf
i wanna say like a year ago tobi showed how to "counter" an emp
volskaya second point he hid when he knew enemy sombra had emp then beat dropped it
pearl stratus
Yveltal did it 2-3 times in the World Cup, as well.
If you need more recent examples.
karmic grotto
He knew Sombra EMP, so he stayed in a distance
pearl stratus
King's Row Doorway humping, etc.
karmic grotto
then used beat
pearl stratus
Yeah, also visually she has to do her stupid little hop.
Which is a short duration, but a counterable one.
balmy wolf
you have half a second at minimum to hit q
unless youre on 400 ms ping
thats honestly not that hard to pull off if youre actively aware of the sombra
hell even in terms of reaction time its not that hard
and this is coming from a zen player
pearl stratus
At this point though with the tuning of all ults I couldn't think of a change to Trans that would make sense.
Maybe a radius change or so, but that barely impacts Goats since you tend to trans on the Grav where everyones stacked anyway.
balmy wolf
its honestly a monumental task for blizzard
pearl stratus
I was thinking they could, arguably, steal from their MMO side.
pearl stratus
And have Trans heal 3 targets per tick, picking at lowest health.
bold garden
balmy wolf
zen himself is fine, i dont see a problem with it
unless youre garbage boosted by an overpowered hero
ahem chipsa
but his ult
i genuinely have no idea how blizzard can make it to where its not q to win
pearl stratus
A displacement hero could do interesting things in the future.
And I don't mean boops.
I mean like.. I target you, and we swap places so you have trans a million miles away.
Fuck your team.
bold garden
if you introduce a hero that displaces someone like that he'd probably be perma run
think of all the ults he would nullify
pearl stratus
It'd be hit or miss, because you're also teleporting yourself into the middle of their team if you're doing it with a Zen.
bold garden
yes, but it's definitely a good trade
pearl stratus
But I agree, he'd be run to counter quite a few ults.
But really moving Zen is the only counter to Trans.
You see it in Rein charges, Monkey slaps, etc.
bold garden
maybe we get more anti healing abilities
pearl stratus
Anti-healing is a slippery slope.
Because I'd argue that Ana nade is flat out the best ability in the game.
bold garden
I'd probably agree
i dont see a way you nerf this meta
good thing I'm not a game designer
pearl stratus
I mean you can nerf goats itself, you just ideally want to do it without nerfing the individual components.
pearl stratus
I personally think a bell curve solution to healing would potentially be a nice change, though I don't trust my own numbers and I'd want a developer to do it.
balmy wolf
im comfortable with saying that theres nothing you can change in this game that would ONLY change goats
pearl stratus
I.E: Run one healer? Small healing buff. Run two healers? Nothing changes. Run three healers? Across the board healing nerf.
pearl stratus
So for dumb math:
Solo healing = 125% output
Duo Healing = 100% output
Triple Support = 75% output.
balmy wolf
drop off for heals
pearl stratus
Just a standard dampening-esque effect.
At those numbers Lucio and Brig HPS would drop from 16.6 to 12, Zen from 30 to 22.
Which doesn't seem like a ton, but adds up quickly.
karmic grotto
how you mean you get good heals from Lucio?
pearl stratus
It's what a lot of games do with aura stacking.
balmy wolf
i cant say i have a problem with aura stakcing
i have more of an issue with it being exist and be valuable
like lucio's role in goats is to exist
and every now and then get a good boop
toxic apex
The core thing about goats is lucio's movement. The dmg being done is from zen his orb and the tanks. So if we take these 2 things into consideration. You can either A. Nerf the dmg tanks do and maybe give back their armor. B. Nerf lucio in a way where his movement speed isn't as fast when he is using speed boost with his whole team.
analog lark
Lucio is a must pick because he's the only one that can increase movement speed
Other people's speed
karmic grotto
Imo, lucio is not OP at all. you cant just keep nerfing characters because of one comp variation
analog lark
The problem with goats isn't an individual hero or thing
It's that they synergize so well together
Everything you could ever want is covered in the comp
Except ranged damage and vertical mobility
But Doats exists to cover the latter problem
Dive goats
sharp kindle
I think the problem is the aoe healing there isn’t much to counter it but Ana nade but it gets eaten by d.va or blocked by barriers most of the time
analog lark
It's multiple problems
analog lark
The tanks provide so much damage mitigation it's stupid
sharp kindle
^
analog lark
Speed boost allows them to out manuvuer the enemy
Aoe healing punishes bad target focusing
If you're all focusing a different thing, no one in goats is gonna die
Brig provides great backline stability
Zarya is the only thing that can shield melee damage
sharp kindle
When they nerfed brig so she can’t bash through barriers that really buffed goats more than anything
analog lark
D.va eats any problem abilities like nade or fire strike (it's easy to hit 6 man fire strikes against goats and just get your ult in 3 firestrikes)
Zen provides much needed damage
sharp kindle
Stun, disruption and cc were huge counters to goats but they nerfed doom so sombra-doom doesn’t really work anymore and brig can’t bash them and people always complain “Junk just charges the zarya” she’s gonna get charged either way so who cares
analog lark
Yeah
It's not one single thing you can change that can nerf goats to the point of just being a niche
sharp kindle
Yeah
analog lark
I think the best way to fix it is to add anti heal
Not 100% exactly
But 50% healing reduction like Mortal Strike in WoW could work
sharp kindle
Yeah, like I said the only anti heal is anas nade but it gets eaten or blocked most of the time
analog lark
Also yes i got this from BTC, it makes a lot of sense
balmy wolf
The problem with goats doesnt even stem from the abilities, it stems from the amount of damage the tanks do in short range
analog lark
Blame the controller
sharp kindle
Yeah
balmy wolf
lets completely ignore abilities for hypothesis sake
sharp kindle
And I’ve seen his vids
balmy wolf
a rein vs a mccree from far distance, JUST using left click
obv mccree wins
but in short range, even if mccree hit all headshots the rein wins
in short range, the zarya beats the mccree or a road or a dva
the only exceptions are specificially anti tank heroes like mei or reaper
hell even as roadhog you can beat the reaper with 2 shots
balmy wolf
Goats found a way to take 3 of the hardest hitting tanks, put them in a position where they can work together, and give them relatively high consistent healing
the issue is not with goats itself, nor is there any one thing you can change that will nerf goats
hell, we play ana/lucio/zen goats in gm and its just as effective as brig goats
analog lark
I've seen that on kings row in OWL
balmy wolf
brig doesnt enable goats, discord doesnt even enable goats, its just manipulation of the core mechanics of the game
there is nothing, and im comfortable in saying absolutely 0 things, you can change that would ONLY nerf/buff goats
there will be a direct consequence of any change made
if you go back to season 3, goats would still be strong as fuck
if you took it to season 7, goats would be dominant
season 11, goats goats goats just with hanzo instead of dva
analog lark
See, i wasn't saying any one thing enabled goats, I'm saying putting them together (d.va DM, Lucio speed boost, zen discord, etc etc.) That makes goats busted, it's the synergies that they create
balmy wolf
no not directing this at you
toxic apex
Make a character that has an aura that reduces healing
analog lark
Oh
balmy wolf
just giving the overall issue why our gm scrims are relatively reliant on goats
analog lark
By themselves, none of the goats core heroes are busted
balmy wolf
put sombra in your lineup instead of dva and hack that anti aoe healing hero
congrats back to goats
analog lark
It's that the sum is greater than their parts
balmy wolf
you cant just "put in a hero that counters goats" because tanks are meant to deny dps space and goats has 3 tanks with a shit load of heals
if that hero is a tank, you get hammond
which honestly
is working very well in terms of anti goats
toxic apex
Nerf the dmg of tanks then. Tanks aren't suppose to put out a lot of dmg. They are suppose to protect and deny space.
balmy wolf
we tried hammond + sombra strats in contenders try outs, its honestly not... bad against a strictly goats comp on a map with some high ground
so how much damage?
how much ult charge compensation?
should they then change their shields/movement to compensate for the sudden lack of ability to deny space?
then how do tanks pressure back line with dive tanks? this will adversely affect that and kill winston/dva
as you can see, its not a "just do [x]"
they do deny space with their damage
roadhog and zaryas massive damage output IS their space denial
analog lark
I agree, it takes many changes and reworks to take goats off the throne
balmy wolf
dva has her boop, rein/orisa/winston has their shields, etc
toxic apex
They would still be able to deny space, but by reducing their dmg by a little (not talking about ult or other skills) but the main dmg of in example: reins swing or zarya beam/ secondary fire.
balmy wolf
how does that change goats though?
toxic apex
Zarya when fully charged is a scary amount of dmg
frigid gorge
Too weak
toxic apex
It would make dmg chars more appealing to have with a sombra
balmy wolf
but their abilities are what denies space as well
toxic apex
That's why I didn't say abilities
balmy wolf
reins lowered damage doesnt make the dps any more prevalent against a shield
or a defense matrix
toxic apex
Just the raw dmg of their left and or right click
balmy wolf
or a hook or bubble
congrats you just turned it into goats with slightly less common ults
and ults are what end fights in the first place, so now the team fights are even longer
toxic apex
Run a dps with sombra with this nerf.
balmy wolf
what would the sombra do thats different than what she would do currently?
toxic apex
This would enable the team with a dps to out dmg and kill the other team
balmy wolf
idk about you
but rein has a shield
you cant shoot through a shield
and in scrims, reins dont often get hacked
toxic apex
HanzO or junkrat can destroy shield quick
balmy wolf
she can eat enough to let your goats team just stomp the enemy tanks that have less support because they have a junk
toxic apex
That's where the skill knowing when to and not fire comes in
balmy wolf
if im in contenders scrims i think i have enough skill to know when not to fire
toxic apex
A hanzo is supporting the team with his dmg out put, that's what makes it more viable if tanks dmg was lowered
balmy wolf
your junk or whatever dos is now useless for 4 seconds because of dm/bubble, which is FAR more than enough time for a lucio speed boost to kill an eenmy
last i checked he cant shoot through dm or bubble
analog lark
That makes no sense
pearl stratus
Lol
analog lark
Khayno you make no sense
coarse yoke
I mean going by that I then any projectile hero is useless against
balmy wolf
why do you think everyone hates dva
toxic apex
Only for 2 seconds
balmy wolf
again
pearl stratus
Two seconds is enough.
balmy wolf
FAAAR more than enough time for a support tank to kill an unsupported tank
coarse yoke
You can still be effective as a projectile hero with a dva on the opposing team
balmy wolf
how so?
pearl stratus
And if you're running two DPS it means you're either not running a Grav, or you're losing your own D'va for the Grav.
Both situations are horrible.
toxic apex
Your not taking into consideration of how people play. You can hold your storm arrow long enough to get the shots off after dva matrix ends
pearl stratus
To be blunt you're not taking into consideration that OWL players aren't gold.
balmy wolf
or college leagues
coarse yoke
It’s very situational, besides those 2 seconds he can put damage out, there’s also ways to bait out matrix, plus the dva isn’t just going to stare at them the whole game she’s going to be focusing targets with the team
pearl stratus
If it was that easy it'd be done.
toxic apex
Because why do that when tanks do just as much dmg as dps characters
pearl stratus
The only one who comes close is a fully charged Zarya, if people are sitting on her face.
analog lark
My Best suggestion is to add competition to abilities with no competition
balmy wolf
so you deny the long range dps to give your team enough time to get closer
toxic apex
And most fight take place where? Mid to close quarters.
coarse yoke
They do though if you compare games with goats vs 2-2-2 or even quad dps
pearl stratus
See, this is why I hate when people whine about goats.
Because they don't even understand it, or why it works the way it works
balmy wolf
^^^^^
pearl stratus
It's just uneducated trump twitter whines.
balmy wolf
Goats in pro play is not fixable by "just" changing something
coarse yoke
No one said they don’t like goats
balmy wolf
I dont like goats lol
pearl stratus
I didn't say dislike, I said whine about.
pearl stratus
The biggest way to fix goats is by fucking with healing. Which is a long, and very tempermental road, which is just as likely to ripple through and fuck up all the other comps first.
Like the armor nerf.
balmy wolf
it will take weeks of constant pugs and matches to even come close to a possibility to change how broken goats is
pearl stratus
Which didn't impact Goats really.. at all.
coarse yoke
😬
pearl stratus
But did fuck up dive pretty badly 😛
analog lark
Add competition to Defense Matrix, bubbles, and speed boost, if not anything, it will at least give more variance to team comps, where you'd rather take... Jetpack cat as a speed booster over lucio
balmy wolf
the only competition to bubble is to just burst through it
pearl stratus
The biggest impact the armor nerf had to Goats actually is how much it buffed Sombra - in retrospect.
balmy wolf
so sometimes our team calls "burst personal" so we purposely pressure it, then eat through it, then focus the zarya
toxic apex
I also hate goats and seeing pros always having to play it. Which is why changes need to be made. Not saying nerf or buff a char into the ground (brig and reaper) but by making slight adjustments to dmg of say tanks or say making lucio's speed lower per person who is in his speed boost.
analog lark
Brig is useless outside goats
analog lark
She was nerfed to that point
coarse yoke
Brigitte is a big part of goats
pearl stratus
Look at Seoul or Shock, who run Ana as much as Brig.
coarse yoke
There’s variations obviously
analog lark
She wasn't even as OP as reworked mercy back in 2017
pearl stratus
Brig is the easier slot for Goats, but by no means a mandatory slot.
It's platchat that does the brig crying still.
toxic apex
You miss read what I said, I was saying brig and reapers nerfs and buffs were not needed nor do I believe the right call for goats
coarse yoke
^
pearl stratus
It's really just healing.
balmy wolf
we run ana/lucio/zen goats in college league very often
pearl stratus
Even if you drop tank damage the sustain from three supports make the comp better.
balmy wolf
on maps like blizzworld
pearl stratus
You just outlast.
coarse yoke
I think Brigitte nerfs helped, but the reaper buffs were meant to counter goats..I think there going in the wrong direction with the changes
balmy wolf
drop tank damage output congrats you just made goats team fights take even longer
pearl stratus
Speed boost too, but you really can't mess with speed boost
balmy wolf
mess up speed boost you now added a cap to reaction time
pearl stratus
Because once speed boost gets messed with too much you drop Lucio into uselessville again.
balmy wolf
which is stupid even on paper
analog lark
Seriously though, can we take a moment to talk about how busted reworked mercy was at first, it was like Brawl Metaknight in terms of brokenness
balmy wolf
i dont even want to think about it
toxic apex
That's why you make another way to lower healing, either another hero or ability that can reduce or stop healing for a certain amount of time.
pearl stratus
It'd have to be an aura to be at all impactful.
fleet walrus
Which goats character is most important
analog lark
Turning a team fight into a 10 vs 10 or a 10 vs 6 if the enemy team wasn't running mercy
balmy wolf
none
pearl stratus
they're all equally important, with Brig being your rotational.
balmy wolf
lower healing and you still make the fights last longer
then dps try to dive tanks and get out damaged bc conversely their heals are lowered too
analog lark
We could try to break the synergies that hold goats together
balmy wolf
lowering heals just makes your fights last longer and actually make other metas LESS reliable, lowered damage just makes fights last longer, etc etc
yeah but how to do that
so jayne invited many to pugs to test certain things
analog lark
That i do not know how
balmy wolf
he first tested ranges on heroes
pearl stratus
You'd specifically need to nerf just support stacking to stop a trickle down of fucking up other metas.
fleet walrus
Which is least important
pearl stratus
Brig, statistically, would be the least important.
Since you can rotate her for an Ana.
pearl stratus
Yeah, but you typically won't rotate any of the others out
analog lark
Fair
pearl stratus
You can't afford to drop Discord, or you lose out a lot on first kill potential
You'd never drop speed boost.
etc, etc.
My first point is noticeable, again, on Seoul.
toxic apex
someway to slow people maybe then?
pearl stratus
When RHJ is forced onto Ana to keep Fissure alive they lose first pick by a huge margin.
pearl stratus
Because they've dropped their discord orb.
toxic apex
if you have something like ana gernade but instead of anti heal it slows people?
pearl stratus
A longer range version of Mei slow would, potentially, impact Goats.
balmy wolf
change brig for sombra and hack the person who does it
pearl stratus
But not kill it.
balmy wolf
back to goats goats goats
toxic apex
if your dva is spinning her left click to find sombra on that character it kinda counter sombra
just need to sombra hunt more basically
balmy wolf
spy check you mean?
analog lark
Nerf sombra (jk please don't blizzard have mercy
toxic apex
ya
balmy wolf
the thing that people do already?
pearl stratus
Honestly Sombra should be nerfed, really.
toxic apex
sombra is fine no need to nerf her xD
balmy wolf
when theres an entire map for sombra to hide in?
toxic apex
your doing spy checks around your important character that you need to use their abilities
pearl stratus
Usually Sombras only get caught on the EMP Engage, and by then its too late (typically).
toxic apex
so your not looking around the entire map
analog lark
Honestly, sombra doesn't pose much of a problem (1000 hours of tf2 experience means you get pretty good at guessing where invis people go.)
toxic apex
just a quick spin every so often to check fore sombras, of course make your pattern of checking random to keep them from finding your pattern of checks
balmy wolf
only on like nepal is it hard for her to hide
pearl stratus
The hard ones are places like Numbani A.
analog lark
Doesn't pose a problem for me
balmy wolf
behind cover
pearl stratus
Because if you're EMPing into the defense its hard to manage not getting caught on the high ground.
balmy wolf
bait out spy check while waiting for your team to engage
toxic apex
its all about positioning
balmy wolf
yeah and to position yourself to not get caught by spy check is easy
notice how in owl most of the times a sombra is caught out its when the sombra fucks it up
pearl stratus
Danteh, for instance, gets caught a lot on Numbani A.
Because he ALWAYS engages the same way.
toxic apex
not if the team is communicating when to spy check, so say they need the ability in the next 10 seconds the dva is spy checking while said ability is being used
fleet walrus
Goats 4head
analog lark
I remember when a teammate asked what i was doing just tazing the door way behind oasis gardens(?) For no reason
toxic apex
who?
balmy wolf
Spy check is just spamming common corridors for a couple seconds without using movement abilities
toxic apex
what would you suggest then?
balmy wolf
nothing, you cant counter it except with the sombra fucking up