Like the paint drying of vocal tone.
#esports-discussion
pearl stratus
pearl stratus
Also poor Trill.
30 hours of flying to land and play in Contenders the next day.
He's got to be so dead.
hidden vault
What's chengdu's rumoured players?
Tanks
Tianbin "Lateyoung" Ma
Adam "Beasthalo" Denton
Menghan "vanessa" Ding
Wenjie "Elsa" Luo
DPS
Tzu-Heng "Baconjack" Lo
Ted "silkthread" Wang
Hu "Jinmu" Yi
Zhihao "YangX1aoLg" Zhang
Supports
Xianyao "Yveltal" Li
Chunting "Kyo" Kong
Li "Garry" Guan
Found
hidden vault
Sf shock is trying for 6 dps meta lul
karmic grotto
Did we hear anything about Decay yet?
300k bid player
Also, he has twitch channel but doesn't stream?
gaunt acorn
@karmic grotto gladiators
karmic grotto
I don't see much of him, too much of a mystery
limber pine
@gaunt acorn where was that rumor posted? I haven’t seen it
gaunt acorn
@limber pine tmz
he removed all boston branding from his twitter
and is rumoured for shock
sullen berry
"Former Uprising" role on striker's official discord account (the same one used by mistakes)
that's questionable to leave it open that way
gaunt acorn
yup so basically confirmed
limber pine
World Cup should have gotten everybody cut
pearl stratus
Honestly after World Cup I'd be wary of him going into a GOATS meta.
@limber pine Only the DPS, imo.
The failing in their Goats wasn't really on Muma, or the supports (Moth played out of his brain honestly)
Their failing was on the intricacy of playing a real GOATS team and having a bad Brigitte/Zarya.
So Muma got man handled because Sinatraa was playing Zarya offensively, not defensively.
You could see it last night on Skyfoxes as well in Contenders.
Zarya Goats plays very different from your standard 3:3 with a Zarya.
If you go for high energy plays you typically don't have your bubble for when you really need it.
And Sinatraa loves high energy plays.
Shanghai Dragons murder designers.
TL;DR - Design company they hired pushed out product before confirming permission from Shanghai, had stolen artwork.
Shanghai got mad, used language in post that makes it sound like they murdered them. Got in contact with artists for compensation.
pearl stratus
No clue, honestly.
I only watched the NA matches last night.
All pretty big sweeps, XL2 vs. Envy wasn't horrible though.
But you knew XL2 was going to win easily because Envy was basically only fielding 66% of a roster.
Both Trill and Sharp (I think it was Sharp) had -just- gotten off their planes the day before.
So no real practice time + massive jet lag.
ruby pendant
Sinaatra has no team?
limber pine
Sinaatra is still on SFS
karmic grotto
Wasn't 1 December the day that NYXL would play against other OWL teams?
analog lark
It's a shame skyfoxes lost against nrg
pearl stratus
Lost isn't quite the word. They were dominated pretty hard.
Skyfoxes had absolutely no cohesion.
It was painful to watch.
@limber pine Looks like he only played... 2 matches? That I could find. Did okay on Widow, some bad positioning that he got punished for (that he could have gotten away with in Ladder), and a pretty garbage Zarya.
analog lark
I know, i still rooted for them, as i love verbo
pearl stratus
His team did win though
limber pine
@pearl stratus are there vods?
pearl stratus
Uh there's the first two maps on the contenders twitch site.
Which has hollywood which they played him on
limber pine
wow New Paradigm literally just threw away their match against Hong Kong Attitude
pearl stratus
Yeah that greedy chase for the de-mech.
Went from a 6v5 to a 4v5 with two people chasing a D'va
limber pine
watching a bit of his match now
definitely can tell he doesn't have the Pro experience, but he has potential
but yeah, his Zarya is not great
torpid charm
@karmic grotto yeah, they play against Fusion & Val
karmic grotto
nice
pearl stratus
@limber pine So Winz girlfriend got into OWL.
No wonder he quit.
Literally anyone but him can get into OWL.
green stump
@pearl stratus wait what?
pearl stratus
@green stump Paris Eternals Team Manager personal trainer/nutritionist is Winz girlfriend.
pearl stratus
Watch.
His mom gets picked up as Team Chef.
Then AKM gets traded over.
And suddenly everyone in his family is on Paris Eternal but him.
green stump
Like.. was it really just that he wasn't good enough? Or was there more to winz?
pearl stratus
No, he's just not good enough.
Most of his achievements are footnoted by *Brother of AKM
green stump
Lol what about that rumor of him throwing the world cup because he wasn't going to owl
pearl stratus
Doubt it, he's just not a great Lucio.
green stump
Lol figures, but he sure as hell thought he was
analog lark
So what expansion teams do y'all think will be good in the OWL
Paris eternal has some good players
analog lark
yeah ATL's tank line are alright, and they have solid dps, but none are "extraordinary"
Dafran would be if he could pop off on soldier or tracer
But neither are really meta right now
I'm hoping that goats and its variants falls out to just a map specific comp
Like on horizon or kings row
karmic grotto
yo know, i'm kinda done with Goats
I wanna see more variation
I don't see Torb, Bastion, Symmetra
pearl stratus
You never will.
Symmetra is the only one with actual potential to get into a comp.
I don't see Torb or Bastion being useful beyond psuedo-pirate ship niche.
Ever.
@analog lark Just prep yourself properly. Dafran will be on the bench 80% of the time.
So don't get all upset when he never plays.
analog lark
I won't
I didn't say i particularly like him, I've seen a few of his streams, godlike tracking, but too volatile half the time
He's probably going it be season 2's xQc if I'm being completely honest
pearl stratus
Me and Sprite are betting on if he starts the season with a suspension
For his "I QUIT EVERYTHING WAAAH" freak out.
limber pine
i don't remember what my guess was
warped axle
The fact that I haven't seen anything from Dafran means things are probably fine
ATL seems like a good org so far so I hope they hire a team therapist
pearl stratus
You said under 10 @limber pine
I said under 8
@warped axle Hopefully fine on team, but his massive throwing the night of him doing his quit tweet will most likely still be actioned upon
They seem to have kept him off stream too
Which I think is smart.
limber pine
beyond smart
warped axle
Honestly whatever
limber pine
if he wants to stay in OWL, it's necessary
sullen berry
#EsportsMystery stream with monte tonight at 5 PM PST/8 PM EST
https://www.twitch.tv/montecristo
no idea what kind of event this implies
karmic grotto
@warped axle yes, ATL has its org very good
sullen berry
it's also not happening yet
limber pine
@sullen berry supposedly https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1068205866124496896
this
karmic grotto
@limber pine Do you think that this will become equal to how South-Korea manages e-sports?
pearl stratus
I mean if it becomes a west coast type apex group
Its not a bad idea.
Apex and the people who ran it were huge in the continued development of Korea.
Because Apex continued to run when there was NOTHING else.
sullen berry
I mean, is it trying to go for a westernized kesper?
pearl stratus
I would assume its an attempt at a Toronto E-sports cross with South Korean Gaming Association.
pearl stratus
They mostly do, provided the people aren't batshit crazy.
Like the owner of Toronto E-sports.
karmic grotto
Normal sports are nice, but do you know how many pc gamers there are in the world?
Far more pc gamers than sporters I believe
sullen berry
"gamers rise up to defend their countries' pride in world war 3"
pearl stratus
The benefit that sports have is that the viewership easily extends to non-participants.
Just look at the NBA.
Finals managed an average viewership of 17.8 million.
It's why OWL has paired so hard with the NBA and people from the NBA.
Its a sport that has maintained successful year over year viewership growth when most others are shrinking.
karmic grotto
But OWL is also being broadcasted on different platforms
Wasn't it ESPN, Disney etc...?
karmic grotto
oh yes, the same
pearl stratus
But yes, it was broadcast on multiple channels.
It's hard to get away from disney owned either way.
karmic grotto
If it has like 1 million viewers on all platforms
then it's pretty good
Don't you think?
karmic grotto
see
pearl stratus
First year you can see inflation due to it being new.
You don't necessarily expect yoy growth, I'd think.
The biggest thing, to me, is that if you get non-players interested in OWL a lot of the general player complaints slowly stop mattering.
My mom, for instance, would not get sick of Goats or Dive.
She doesn't know what the hell it is.
She has no clue what the balance changes would do, etc.
Normal people are better, less whiny, viewers.
Also they spend money.
You get the 7 year old kid to drag his mom and dad to an OWL game?
You got merchandise, you get food, etc.
pearl stratus
Blizzards biggest area of growth this year, to me, is making us more invested in the players.
The NBA does player storyline stuff really well so you get more invested in them.
We're getting that more now in Overwatch, but its still their biggest growth area.
I think the World Cup did it well too, with the shit talking, etc, etc.
You left World Cup definitely invested in a lot of players - and not the Korean ones.
Guxue, Leave, Fusions, Kyb, Team Brazil. They did a great job kind of ... pushing their personalities.
Like I'll never forget Jaynes "Fuck off Leave" tweet.
IT was the highlight of the OWWC to me
sullen berry
Italy too, funny enough
sullen berry
which for those lesser represent countries, that's their team thailand 2016 moment
pearl stratus
Marketable is the term being meme'd around, but its real.
Hell look at Jake.
How many people meme'd Jake is mad/bad etc, etc.
Now that he did his casting stuff, the tv spots...
He's back to being on peoples good sides a lot.
sullen berry
it's easier to make a meme compilation than it is to analyze and explain what impact they have now
pearl stratus
The kids are marketable, especially the pretty boys.
Avast is marketable like that too.
pearl stratus
Dude Profit has been marketable since he flipped off the camera.
karmic grotto
Decay?
sullen berry
salaries are a mess to understand
pearl stratus
They're not public, thats why.
pearl stratus
I'm going to tell you that I can basically gaurantee there's people already making that much.
But they don't talk about it.
sullen berry
fucks up capital/profitability of the industry for the sake of transparency
karmic grotto
Fury
sullen berry
he's a person NYXL picked up from ladder
pearl stratus
He had the top 3 spots on the Korean Ladder.
With 3 separate accounts.
He was #1/2/3, and he stacked with a lot of the pros.
sullen berry
@pearl stratus imagine JJonak at the beginning not on a $100k salary, more likely than you think
karmic grotto
he became better
pearl stratus
I wouldn't say better, I haven't actually seen much growth in him.
He's invested in by his team though.
karmic grotto
he was good?
pearl stratus
You'll never see a protect the president as strong as Jjonaks line.
karmic grotto
so he needed team coaching?
pearl stratus
He needed coaching and cohesion. He scrimmed with NYXL for ~3 months before OWL started.
karmic grotto
whats the first match he played?
pearl stratus
Well they weren't NYXL at the team.
But yeah.
His first professional game was his OWL debut.
But he was, technically, on the LW Blue roster.
karmic grotto
against what team?
pearl stratus
I can't even remember, you'd have to check the OW website
sullen berry
LW Blue was a team that placed 4th in APEX
pearl stratus
Actually wasn't he on something prior to that in road to Apex?
I don't think he actually played though. I think he was bench
sullen berry
if I'm not mistaken, the initial thoughts of the roster going into the OWL was great players, but had the tendency to choke during their playoffs or semis
JJonak? probably
pearl stratus
But yeah in general while the league minimum is 50k, I doubt very many non-bench players make that little.
Not that everyone is over 6 figures.
But I'm sure the people who remained all got a decent little bump
analog lark
Wasn't there a massive bidding war for decay?
pearl stratus
Yeah.
sullen berry
they play well on an individual level
pearl stratus
Roars been a pro player, with Lan experience, since 2016 for instance.
analog lark
Also before i forget
pearl stratus
Thats the biggest benefit of Koreans imo. They have so much LAN experience just due to regionality.
analog lark
I went on liquidpedia and counted how many of each nationality in the league so far
102 koreans currently in the league, and 114 that have been in league at some point but were dropped
Ado and TiZi for example were in the league but dropped
sullen berry
ones with most value are generally (most to least imo)
- playmakers aka..
- ...good mechanical skill, or a proven track record
- played in the past 2 years in the competitve scene
- workable hero pool
- great communication or igl
pearl stratus
Ado will most likely end up resigned by DC (we're waiting for DC to actually say -anything-)
limber pine
my tweets to DC are getting angrier and angrier
pearl stratus
But if you're about to ask 'Why so many Koreans' its because of, in my opinion, its a region with the best player development due to their relative acceptance especially compared to the west and the investment their own organizations have into it, i.e. things like Apex running with or without official things going.
analog lark
Also shoutout to florida mayhem going almost full korean
sullen berry
TviQ will be korean speaking to play with them
analog lark
Probably
pearl stratus
NA and EU development is really mediocre overall.
analog lark
Same with Diya and Shanghai
pearl stratus
The contenders changes will slowly fix it though.
analog lark
As Shanghai is going full korean
sullen berry
Same with every chinese roster by the looks of it
analog lark
Except maybe chengdu
pearl stratus
Guangzhou is definitely mixed.
analog lark
Chengdu has signed their support
sullen berry
Guangzhou will have to lean on english if they're going to utilize NerO and Kyb
but it's a roster with 4 supports 4 dps
think about that
limber pine
who needs tanks
sullen berry
6 of those players are korean
when you have hotba
who graduated from
better than poko university
sullen berry
when their roster was truly stuffed midseason
pearl stratus
I mean having 4:4:4 is a clear indicator you're going for in hous escrims basically.
sullen berry
dps shortage screwed them
pearl stratus
Even having 3:5:4 is in house scrim,
sullen berry
but not as hard as I thought
analog lark
I kinda wanna make a fan team with only western players
pearl stratus
I mean Houston/Paris are still pretty close.
Paris is full EU
Houston has Arhan but thats it.
analog lark
As if i were to make it with koreans, it'd be NYXL ctrl c ctrl v
karmic grotto
Holes?
pearl stratus
I'd keep... maybe? 3 of them.
If I were to make an all-korean roster.
I'd keep none of their tanks, 1 of their dps, 2 supports.
That's it.
sullen berry
NYXL and spitfire are not all that impenetrable
seeing as nyxl strugged stage 4 for reasons we won't know
balmy wolf
Borg pls
analog lark
More like london ctrl c ctrl v + carpe+ jjonak and anamo
sullen berry
and spitfire practically threw the rest of the regular season
pearl stratus
I wouldn't keep all of London either.
sullen berry
after their stage 1 title and winning against the bare minimum to make it to playoffs every other stage
pearl stratus
I'd keep one dps from London, 1 off tank, and -maybe- a main tank
But I personally prefer the way Fate plays over Gesture, especially when flexing onto Rein.
Gesture and Fate are tied on Winston, imo. Gesture has the better Orissa, Fate has the better Rein.
sullen berry
assuming you were creating an all-star korean roster representing busan
analog lark
I wanna make an all star western
pearl stratus
Mine would be something like Fate, Fury, Libero, Carpe, Fleta, Jjonak, Anamo.
And even the dps is a toss up.
Fleta and Carpe could be replaced with minimal overall impact I feel.
Especially depending on the meta.
If you're still in goatsland? I'd argue taking Youngjin over Fleta.
analog lark
If i were to make a western only team, it'd be
Muma, Space....
I just noticed there's not many stellar non Korean tanks
Both main and off
pearl stratus
There's a few, just still in contenders.
sullen berry
@analog lark Surefour or Linkzr, Agilities, Space, Note, Boombox, Bani
pearl stratus
Fusions, Trill are backup for your Main tank.
sullen berry
I would say contenders has some notable picks
pearl stratus
Yeah there's a bunch of contenders off-tanks that are solid.
limber pine
Super
analog lark
I don't follow contenders much, I'm really only watching skyfoxes because of verbo
sullen berry
worthy of an all star western lineup, but I don't have anything recent to base that off
pearl stratus
@limber pine I'm not on the Super hype train, I actually think there's a decent chance I'd take Trill/Fusions over him.
pearl stratus
I mean Coolmatt for all his talk isn't -that- bad, we give him a lot of shit but he does his job on D'va.
analog lark
Muma Super Space and Note for the tank line
Or Muma Trill/Fusions
Instead of Super
pearl stratus
Either way, there's options.
sullen berry
i have to think hard when I need to pick good western supports
there's not many that come to mind
pearl stratus
Moth definitely.
pearl stratus
Custa + Moth would actually be a pretty solid combo.
They're both smart af.
But they both tend to main.
sullen berry
I could work with that actually
pearl stratus
You'd want a third for your Zen, Sleepy could work, Boombox could work.
karmic grotto
@pearl stratus
sullen berry
what western investor would put their money that could be reproducible
karmic grotto
Wasn't that the SK roster
pearl stratus
It's pretty close.
sullen berry
top 4 western support definitely includes the zens, less the mercy players
pearl stratus
But only for finals when they realized running all NYXL was bad.
karmic grotto
Minus Libero
sullen berry
but bani and custa do a good job, from what we can see
pearl stratus
Bani is mechanically flawed.
But to me he's like Jake.
You lose a bit of mechanical skill.
But you pick up calling and brain.
Which can be a net gain.
analog lark
I'd probably go with shaz, biggoose, custa and sleepy/boombox for western supports
sullen berry
big brain saying best western mercy does most healing not damage
pearl stratus
Bani is apparently a freak at ult tracking, thats what Jayne was saying.
analog lark
Good freak or bad freak
pearl stratus
Good.
analog lark
Ah
sullen berry
best western coach?
pearl stratus
Arguably Aero.
analog lark
Aero probably
sullen berry
that one gets my head scratching, I would argue Gunba based on season 1 results
pearl stratus
There could be better coaches, but in terms of proven results so far he's high up on the list.
analog lark
At least Aero didn't put taimou on main tank
analog lark
Why is kyky still being offered owl positions?
pearl stratus
Because he's not actually a bad assistant coach.
sullen berry
kyky is assistant coach for paris eternal
analog lark
I know
sullen berry
you bring experience
pearl stratus
Dallas is a half story.
sullen berry
people pay for that
pearl stratus
I still argue that 90% of the issues on Dallas weren't kyky.
And were hastr0 being a cunt.
If you don't give your coach actual control, you don't get actual results.
sullen berry
they want someone who can verify what coaching strategies work or don't work based on what they learned and failed
pearl stratus
And Kyky wasn't given control till what...
End of Stage 3/early stage 4?
And then they released him.
sullen berry
it was, to put it lightly
a fan-fueled infestation
playing the blame game as soon as dallas started building a losing streak
pearl stratus
Yeah, people haven't learned to blame more than a coach in OWL yet.
sullen berry
and since the losses were getting very inconsistent
what it boils down to is you have an emotionally stressed out kyky making apology videos for things out of his control that we don't know about
pearl stratus
And lots of spicy leaks we still never learned the truth about.
Hastr0 basically admitted during one of his rants he recruited players without Kyky's input.
Which we all assume was AKM
Or Rascal.
pearl stratus
For me the thing is.
If they hated each other as every leak in the world confirmed.
sullen berry
and continuing to pay off his salary feelsWeirdMan
pearl stratus
Why were they happily at dinner the night Rascal was released.
sullen berry
professionalism
sullen berry
you can be absolutely livid to a boss or work colleague you see often
but when time comes to do things as an org, you manage to cool it off
pearl stratus
I'm just saying hastr0 fucked that team up more than anyone else, but he's not in a position to see or take blame.
sullen berry
so for western coaches
Season 1
HuK (pls), Shake
KyKy, Aero, Peak
dpei, Tim
Stoop, Daemon, Gunba
Mineral
Kirby, Hayes
Junkbuck
karmic grotto
Fun thing, stage 1 of last year, players weren't using Ana?
sullen berry
Ana saw the most play in stage 1 from memory
throughout regular season
there were limited situations where she was more effective over lucio, zen
stage 2 sombra buff made her more reliable as dps and extra support
when her ult charge was tied to hacked health packs
karmic grotto
Good thing they got rid of that
But on the other hand
Sombra isn't a much played hero
sullen berry
we got to see some very interesting plays and picks
those pog plays with bdosin's and biggoose on sombra 
vagrant niche
anybody finds scummy that Bliz is limiting Jayne's pugs
but they wont step up and improve their competitive ranked to what the community wants at a faster rate?
green stump
@vagrant niche there needs more time for jaynes pugs, while it's created interesting matches, it's not as much of an impact as it seemed it would
I thought the hero bans would throw things into chaos, but whenever possible, players go for tank heavy builds whenever possible, even with brig banned, they just go quad tanks, dps still rarely get much limelight
sullen berry
@vagrant niche are we talking those new rulesets or that blizz actually causing issues with his PUG experiements
vagrant niche
what Jayne is doing is something organically, yet bliz is trying to put hard breaks cause it competes with their ideas
sullen berry
what ideas lmao
karmic grotto
Then why don't they use hero bans themselves?
sullen berry
see
sullen berry
they have to take responsibility for a successful hero ban system
karmic grotto
It's just all custom games being made
sullen berry
probably name it something else
vagrant niche
ideas for example, ranked is a mode where you can be a pro, but at the same time it can cater to those people who just want to want to relax etc
green stump
@karmic grotto because one thing that's very apparent... The hero bans aren't as monumental as it seemed
sullen berry
and have all the LoL-based players rename it simply bans
karmic grotto
They're not? Hmm.. Is it the fact that Jayne create pugs where potential Contender players are in it?
green stump
The same problems are still happening even with the bans
So while Jayne's ideas are good, from a skrim perspective, it's still not effective enough to fix the issues, especially the ones that seagull mentioned
karmic grotto
What are those issues again?
green stump
Hard counters, powerful ults, lack of synergy, snowballs, stats
vagrant niche
but if a group of people want to do what they want, why does bliz has to limit them?
that's scummy
if it gets popular, then so be it
green stump
@vagrant niche same reason they limited or attacked that wow classic server
vagrant niche
but they didn't steal Overwatch assets, they are just using the normal servers
it's the same game everybody plays
sullen berry
@vagrant niche business incentives, i think
vagrant niche
yeah that's why it's scummy IMO
green stump
@vagrant niche yeah but in most likely reasons, blizzard is doing something themselves and don't want Jayne to get in the way of an opportunity to please their investors
sullen berry
blizzard doing the think different approach
just package something another person created and call it your own
green stump
Apple cough
karmic grotto
Huh?
green stump
Anyways though....
green stump
Not exactly, it's bringing people to watch the game that's for sure
green stump
What's important from jaynes pugs is we are leaning what is a game issue and what's a player issue
karmic grotto
So Jayne uses the Hero bans to minimise those effects?
green stump
Because some crucial things came from the pugs and Jayne's reflection on it.. for example...
If dva gets banned, it completely reinvites double sniper back into the game
Which scares the crap out of players so often times if dva gets banned, so does widow
karmic grotto
That means that they have to think of a strategy to counter double sniper
green stump
If brig gets banned, slambulance often comes out instead
Nooooo double sniper was like.. the worst, even more than goats
karmic grotto
I see..
green stump
Its like, the dreaded comp that everyone hates with a passion
karmic grotto
You ask yourself, how to counter it? Mirror comp, become double sniper yourself? 🤔
green stump
So they are not understanding exactly what is gatekeeping other comps, and it's making others realize just how open goats comp actually is
karmic grotto
Is goats a basic alternative if any other comp doesn't work against an opponent?
green stump
So the problem has become more of a 'huh...... Maybe there's a bigger problem than we thought'
Goats has a lot of effectiveness and different versions of it, there's just a lot more heroes you can play with it, the only things you can't play are dive comps like tracer and genji
karmic grotto
But that's why, we are waiting for those new planned heroes to come
Honestly, I would like a more mobile support hero than Lucio, and another type of tank hero
green stump
You've actually come very close to it. There isn't enough heroes to challenge the meta.. that seems to be one of the big things
green stump
Yeah but there still isn't enough
vagrant niche
Jeff said we getting 6 coming up
green stump
Basically, not enough variety and ways to attack to create better combinations, otherwise, you just go back to double sniper again
vagrant niche
he should throw them all 6 at once 
green stump
Which i think is going to be the best solution
karmic grotto
Who works like a mid range sniper
green stump
They're needs to be more heroes in all categories so that the general meta can be changed so that proper balancing can be done, which seagull agreed with
vagrant niche
we also have to break down the roles you know, main tanks, offtanks, flex heals and main heals
those are separate on their own
green stump
There needs to be something that directly challenges dva as an alternate pick, there needs to be a tank that directly alternates with zarya, there needs to be a dps that takes dive in a new direction, and there needs to be a support that challenges ana
green stump
@vagrant niche i would agree with your with the separation thing... If people weren't so confused on what hammond was
sullen berry
zarya's bubble shield and D.va's matrix are pretty unique properties
one taking in a limited amount of damage
green stump
@sullen berry exactly and we currently have nothing that challenges their utility right now, making them the only solution
vagrant niche
he just creates spaces
sullen berry
it's not hard to assume they are working on keeping to their authenticity when it comes to new heroes
green stump
They are strong because they are unique
sullen berry
because the abilities can be derivative, to allow for the overlap we get in really good use cases like orisa
vagrant niche
lets hope those 6 heroes are like, at least 1 of each role
green stump
Orisa was a great step in the right direction, but they never followed up with it
karmic grotto
Would be nice if a tank didn't had to be big
vagrant niche
tbh, Orisa's introduction started Barrierwatch
karmic grotto
Also
green stump
@vagrant niche but what i mean is that it's a different kind of barrier with a different usage compared to reins, similar, but different utility, something that changes an engagement
karmic grotto
Wait Nai
You know symmetra barrier?
Why can't that barrier be made in a way that it moves enemies back?
vagrant niche
like push them?
karmic grotto
Yes
vagrant niche
not sure, that might be too strong
karmic grotto
Lower the HP of the barrier
sullen berry
it also seems to clash with the funamental properties of existing barriers
which you can freely walk through them
karmic grotto
Like it needs 3000 HP damage to break the barrier that's pushing you back
green stump
Let's take for example dvas defense matrix, it actively blocks all projectiles or hitscans and eats them.....
What if there was a tank of a similar nature that takes blocked abilities as a form of ammo for a feedback ability... Like a hard knock can or ammo to empower another ability, while dva denies attacks, another uses it at the cost of a cooldown or health
karmic grotto
🤔
green stump
Sounds like zarya, but zarya is about restraint and timing
karmic grotto
Interesting
green stump
Take the similar concept but make it pure utility instead of just damage
green stump
For example, say it's a passive.. that can be activated based on the energy gained. At a certain amount of energy gained, it has a widely different effect at a different range of impact
karmic grotto
@green stump genius
I feel like I've seen this before, but applying this on OW
Would be awesome
vagrant niche
it sounds just like zarya
sullen berry
@green stump leaving you to come up with a passive inspired by echo's design and name
green stump
That directly creates an alternative to dva or zaryas utility and gives it an alternative usage
queen drift
Mano/Meko - Libero/Sayaplayer - Jjonak/idk
queen drift
My ideal Korean roster of the top of my head
karmic grotto
That with energy, a different ability can be used
Depending on how much energy it has
sullen berry
imagine echo just having empty hotkeys replaced by your team or your opponent's hero roster in a team fight
limited to certain abilities that deal direct damage
green stump
@vagrant niche but in the pro scene, you have to give players this utility as a tool, the more tools in the table, the more ways to attack the situation..
However... Different tools with a similar job creates something much much different, alternative interaction. Like how you can use different screws with different screwdrivers, same job, but have a different effect based on the job itself
vagrant niche
Echo to me sounds like a flying D.Va with the old symetra barriers
that's how i picture her design
karmic grotto
Exactly what kind of tools will that tank give?
green stump
There have only been three heroes that were released that were able to do this alternative interaction, and that was orisa, ana, and brig
karmic grotto
Won't it become an off-support?
vagrant niche
Something tells me Bliz is going to come out more with Shooter like characters from now on
look at hammond and Ashe
green stump
@karmic grotto tanks are about making space, kinda their thing, hammond uses impact and knockback to do this, but it's not enough... You need to focus more on the elements of making space than the end results
That's what will keep pros more excited and games more interesting when you mix different elements into a situation and blizz didn't realize this
That's why league did so well for a long time
karmic grotto
Let's say the tank can charge up to 100% same as Zarya. At certain points of energy the tank can use effect things to change a team fight.
One of the effects could be that the tank could be to give ally chance to heal with received damage?
Hero receives damage > damage is being transformed to healing > healing goes to lowest HP ally
Just ideas.
.
But I do agree with your idea of using energy to create different effects
green stump
And that's what jaynes pugs are teaching everyone.... It's not that goats is really strong, it's just there was enough utility among the heroes as alternative..
HOWEVER... you know who did have alternative elememts to dps? Tanks.... Tanks have the same elements that can do the dpses job and the only ones not effected by this was doom, widow, and Hanzo... Why? Cause they had burst damage.... And sombra only enabled the tanks to get their jobs done easily.
As long as dps and tanks can share the same elements of damage, there's no need for dps
karmic grotto
🤔
The reason why dva or zarya have much eliminations
And gold damage
Doing dps its job
sullen berry
speculation is what this text channel is about, but I reckon we've strayed pretty far from the original topic
green stump
So why not run goats? It's not like tracer or genji or solider or whatever adds anything... The only time you use genji is for nanoblade.....
There's no point to the dps not unless they can add something different that a tank can't do... Like mccrees stun or meis wall which is why snow goats is appearing so much
sullen berry
agreed that Jayne's pug do set a big precedent in terms of new heroes who can break the meta and for established team comps
green stump
That's what the analyst discussion is
It was 'wait... It's not that goats is strong.. it's that tanks can do everything dps can do except for burst dps... And even then, they barely add anything'
karmic grotto
I mean, Zarya is scary at high charge
Dva matrixes damage
Rein is freaking shield with 2000 HP
And his ult brings a whole team to the ground
sullen berry
Tanks are odd
karmic grotto
Can charge and have guaranteed kill
green stump
@sullen berry yeah, but it's like.. duh? What not play goats in pro play, which is why i can see why the changes coming now directly fighting the element
sullen berry
because they expose a core part of the defensive and offensive play
karmic grotto
Brig is just basically hybrid dps tank support oae
Aoe*
Lucio is good for speed boost and healing aoe as well and sound barrier
sullen berry
it's a staggered lucio heal
karmic grotto
Moira is just dps support with crazy healing
green stump
So when it comes to the next seaaon of owl, that's not important, what's important is this big thing in March
sullen berry
given how often rein and brig changes come up in patch notes
karmic grotto
What do you need dps for?
sullen berry
I am curious which ones stay in time for season 2
karmic grotto
green stump
And that's how people are more realizing the problem with the game
karmic grotto
We have a big variety of dps
But tanks and support do the same if done right
Lucio is like Genji, can get anywhere
green stump
And most of that dps add nothing that a tank can't do or prevent entirely
karmic grotto
Reddit Lucio hunts you
Winston and Dva?
Can get anywhere Widow can be
Or Hanzo and Genji
Also Hammond
Roadhog?
Just Reaper with self healing
And his ult is kinda strong if used good
green stump
Yuuup.. what do they add? Nothing
karmic grotto
Bastion?
Why Bastion when you have Zarya
Does the same
Zarya high charge is Bastion on 300 bullets mode
Has Bastion like right click bombs
And her ult traps enemies
Also, a smart Zarya player can get pretty much on top of buildings with her super jump
green stump
That's why I'm thinking.... That March might be an ultimate rework on all dps
green stump
It would send shockwaves
karmic grotto
Playing Genji against Zarya is suicide
green stump
Making all the dps have their ults updated would be massive in the pro scene, might change the game entirely
karmic grotto
What heroes?
Some say mccree deadeye is bad
I would like to see Tracer having a different ult, not sure
But that won't go since
The story is already made
Lore is a fact and can't be changed
green stump
Tracer, genji, solider, mccree, hanzo, widow, bastion, mei, junkrat, pharah, and reaper...
And.. if they are smart...
They will have echo be the hero that changes their ults
green stump
Echo be there support that had a unique ability... It buffs the next ability used by the hero used on
green stump
Buff a tracer bomb that slows in a small area around it
karmic grotto
Slows?
green stump
Buff a genji blade that does a large 360 aoe in an area on the first swing
karmic grotto
His dragonblade ult has this slash aura
Actually, I wondered why Genji doesn't leave a trace of his green dragon behind him
Or uses the motion of a dragon when he blades
I only see a sword going left and right
But not a dragon itself
green stump
New utility, new element, hundreds of combinations, that's how to change the meta completely
It would be like the game is brand new again
green stump
Yuo
karmic grotto
With that mccree Armor going through
We should know first what a shield exist of
Is it some electronic barrier?
If it is something electric, then Mccree could have another ability to use bullets that goes through shield
With high cooldown of course
Would be possible to finally shoot that Brig
queen drift
Brig isn’t a big problem for McCree
karmic grotto
Seems like Dafran is going great
analog lark
How good do y'all think the revamped Florida Mayhem and shanghai dragons?
Shanghai seems low-mid tier
And florida mayhem seems rather meh
analog lark
Like 12-16
gaunt acorn
gonna have to disagree on that one, personally
i think they have a pretty good roster now
not exactly top-tier stuff but
i don't see them near the bottom
gaunt acorn
i think boston will perform a lot worse than season 1
toronto looks disappointing
atlanta is overrated
dc looks awful
outlaws will be consistently disappointing (except maybe some danteh plays)
paris won't perform as well as people are expecting
gladiators will fall in the rankings too (maybe not to the bottom but.. worse than season 1)
shock will improve but still not be amazing
vancouver could either surprise everyone or be a massive disappointment
chengdu doesn't look great
ruby pendant
very negative views!
gaunt acorn
i mean he's discussing who he thinks will be at the bottom
analog lark
You went way too far from what i was going to discuss
gaunt acorn
guangzhou isn't looking great either
what are you going to discuss
i'm just saying who i believe will be in the lower half
shanghai doesn't seem all that bad in comparison
analog lark
I just wanted to discuss florida and shanghai former rosters
gaunt acorn
former rosters?
analog lark
And comparing them to now
gaunt acorn
is there any debate that they will improve?
it's basically impossible for them to perform worse than season 1
analog lark
There are always ways
gaunt acorn
no i really don't think so, in this case
analog lark
Make shanghai full of gold players
gaunt acorn
yeah except.. you know.. they got kongdoo panthera instead
analog lark
I was just giving examples of how to make a team worse
analog lark
Exactly
It was nonsensical for a reason
Now i have a baby dog that needs supervising
ruby pendant
@gaunt acorn "it's basically impossible for them to perform worse than season 1" Lol, made my day. Would be hilarious if Dragons do perform the same as Season 1. What if the competition for Season 2 is too much for current Dragons roster?
gaunt acorn
i would legitimately bet $100 on that
no way they don't win a single game
current shanghai looks like a mid-tier roster
upper niche
I don't think any team will be winless in S2.
I think there'll be four strong teams, five weak teams, and a heap in-between.
analog lark
4 strong teams? I wonder who are they?
gaunt acorn
london, philly, new york, valiant?
probably
not likely that any of the new teams will immediately be poised for top 4
gladiators losing fissure will probably hurt them
river ember
@gaunt acorn yea, losing fissure is going to hit hard for them
Unless Roar can step it up big time
analog lark
What about seoul getting fissure
gaunt acorn
i think seoul has the opportunity to perform well this season
whether they actually will is up for debate
analog lark
Seoul was weakest in MT
gaunt acorn
go ahead
analog lark
I'll do that during my library worker during school
river ember
do you think ryujehong will start playing ana again?
gaunt acorn
it depends entirely on what the meta is by the time owl starts
it's not like he abstained due to personal reasons lol
ana is strong right now, yes
if she continues to remain strong, probably yes
analog lark
Anyway, what would y'all think your pro name would be.
Mine would be Flintluz, just Luz or Carcy
gaunt acorn
i'm fine with my current name
river ember
My battletag is Capital so I guess I'll leave it at that
but i was thinking to maybe changing it to something more creative
analog lark
I have 6 overwatch accounts, it's difficult to create names
So far my favorite is my most recent one, buildabuddha
Back on topic, Flintluz has been my gamer tag since early wrath of the lich king in WoW
So it's kinda representative of me
So those 3 chengdu tanks, what y'all think
upper niche
@analog lark I don't use the same nick now as when I used to play what would be as close to Pro as things were at the time.
analog lark
Shame, what was your nick?
forest raven
Monte got married 
warped axle
I'm surprised Seoul hasn't picked up a 3rd DPS.
Man if only WhoRU was old enough
Wait Climax still doesn't have a team?
Seriously?
gaunt acorn
nope
paper crag
jeez whoru is STILL underage?
must suck to watch your LH teammates play on OWL
while you're playing contenders with 150 ping
although seoul dynasty did have a pretty disappointing showing in OWL S1
i wonder if he would have gone straight into seoul if he was old enough at the beginning of S1
or signing phase, w/e
gaunt acorn
yes, he would have
you know esca was signed to seoul dynasty
he just left like two or three months later
whoru's age was the only limiting factor
well, and the fact that seoul didn't have an academy team at the time
to reserve him
warped axle
WhoRU is one of the most accomplished players of all time
He could be the next Decay
Also TIL WhoRU has hyperhidrosis
gaunt acorn
yes he plays with a towel over his hands
queen drift
How old is whoru now?
queen drift
Seoul didnt end up getting ado right?
balmy wolf
I missed Kephrii in contenders how did he do
queen drift
average on widow, fed on zarya
deep wagon
he was not as bad as the stream quality at least
twin cobalt
Wait I thought DC hasnt released a roster, Dray
sullen berry
DC has not anonunced their full roster
twin cobalt
Didn't see any post on their roster yet, who is on it?
hidden vault
We have no suspected players on DC?
twin cobalt
Apparently Ado? Keno said there was a roster just not offical
warped axle
Off the top of my head: Ado, Gido, Janus, Fahzix, Corey, Stratus,
SanSam and Hyeonu as well
Kind of a weird team tbh
twin cobalt
I see the post on Reddit now about sansam
From OCT
Wish they would update their site then reeee
warped axle
I wish DC would do anything
twin cobalt
Still love the Dallas fuel tweet
hidden vault
why would they pick up Gido?
gaunt acorn
because
warped axle
"He did great in scrims"
gaunt acorn
show me the good stuff, vancouver
sullen berry
countdown from now?
gaunt acorn
@sullen berry like 31 hrs
sullen berry
😡
now I'm just impatient
it's already dec 1st and I need to wait until 10am on Sunday here
pearl stratus
@limber pine The more I think about the more I think WhoRU wouldn't end up on Seoul due to his attitude issues, which he still hasn't gotten control of.
Also the whole Monte wedding thing was the biggest jebait in OWL history so far.
sullen berry
indeed an esports mystery if I've ever witnessed one today
limber pine
yeah I was watching SA Contenders instead
pearl stratus
I didn't watch it at all, just woke up to notifications for it.
Chengdu tank line looking decently stronk.
limber pine
LFTOWL VS LFORG was the best match
pearl stratus
Though I wish Elsa would go back to Ninja.
Because Elsa is a horrible name for horrible people.
limber pine
tell that to the thousands of newborn girls being named else b/c Frozen
pearl stratus
I stick by my original statement.
If your parents created a mistake and named it Elsa, it just proves my point.
Though back to real things - he's a weird pick up.
Because he's kind of like Chinese Spree.
karmic grotto
Lmao
pearl stratus
I'm guessing Ameng is going to be their main, but I'm worried that I don't think I've seen any of their tanks on Winston often. But I don't watch a ton of Contenders China.
karmic grotto
Chinese Spree
pearl stratus
We'll see how Beasthalo pans out.
@limber pine Did you watch PAC Contenders? Patiphan went bananas again.
limber pine
yup just caught that last match
it's a shame Kephrii and Patiphan are in different brackets
pearl stratus
Kephrii would rage.
karmic grotto
Kephrii, is he really Contenders level?
pearl stratus
Remember the last time a 14 year old kicked the shit out of him?
Eh, PAC contenders he seems okay enough for it.
But you could argue that PAC contenders is one of the lowest contenders brackets.
karmic grotto
You think EU is better
pearl stratus
I think you could make an argument that were it more visible SA has better player quality lately.
BGH etc.
NA Contenders is rarely NA players.
Which is why the contenders changes is needed.
pearl stratus
Most of SA speaks english, fluently.
karmic grotto
I should choose the English one
radiant sail
I’m starting to question DC’s definition of “Coming Soon”
limber pine
my only hope is that we get something today, because we know Vancouver is being announced tomorrow
Otherwise, they'll be the last team to announce anything with the lowest amount of activity on social media
they don't even contribute or retweet recent news
limber pine
😠
torpid charm
It was an amazing wedding
jagged crater
most of the OWL analysts and cocasters were there, i dont watch LoL but i imagine some of the LoL dudes were there, some CSGO, thorin
left guy was thre, real poggers moment seeing him
analog lark
So i did a tier list for the OWL
S: 
A: 
B: 
C: 
D: 
Washington and Vancouver don't have many confirmed players, so I'm not including them right now
Anything y'all wanna point out?
limber pine
My only immediate gripe would be SFS, but that's because they could be anywhere between A and D
and I think Boston is too low
jagged crater
glancing at the team nationalities, i just noticed chengdu is the only one with a full chinese roster
paris and chengdu are the only teams without koreans
analog lark
San Fran was tough
jagged crater
san fran got some chunky changes
analog lark
And Boston, well, i think their star dps might go
jagged crater
there's like 20 teams now, how is scheduling going to work? take it some teams will only face eachother once or twice a season?
limber pine
yeah
analog lark
It's 28 weeks, and some teams will have 0, 1 or 2 matches
So maybe put Boston at B?
C or B?
limber pine
I'd put them in B
analog lark
Seoul i have high hopes for, Fissure is such a good pick up
analog lark
I don't really watch contenders
Not enough time
I will watch Skyfoxes games
Because Verbo
jagged crater
is vancouver likely be ex-runaway?
limber pine
Vancouver is 99.9% ex-runaway
And that’s only because I never say something is 100% certain
jagged crater
yea there could be some curveball
gaunt acorn
no
jagged crater
indeed
analog lark
Hey Dray, what are ya thoughts on my OWL season 2 tier list
analog lark
I'm excited for the reveals for vancouver tomorrow
And DC when they actually decide to release their players out to the public
Who are the current rumored players for Vancouver
dull orchid
Old Runaway plus Lucid and Rapel
queen drift
Swap Paris and sfs imo
dull orchid
In Full: Stitch, Haksal, Hooreg, SeoMinSoo, Bumper, JJANU, Slime and Twilight + Lucid and Rapel
gaunt acorn
@analog lark
Tanks
Sang-beom "Bumper" Park
Hyeon-Woo "JJANU" Choi
DPS
Hyo-jong "Haksal" Kim
Chung-hee "Stitch" Lee
Dong-eun "Hooreg" Lee
Min-soo "SeoMinSoo" Seo
Supports
Sung-jun "SLIME" Kim
Joo-seok "Twilight" Lee
Jun-seo "Lucid" Yoo
analog lark
Looks like a A-B tier team on my tier list
gaunt acorn
rapel is still uncertain
surreal lichen
Lul all Koreans
gaunt acorn
did you expect runaway to be not korean?
analog lark
Also Dray, i really wanted your opiniom on my tier list
surreal lichen
It be hilarious if they added a random black guy
analog lark
So i did a tier list for the OWL
S: LondonSpitfire NYExcelsior
A: LAValiant PhiliFusion SeoulDynasty
B: ParisEternal LAGladiators TorontoDefiant HangzhouSpark ShanghaiDragons
C: HoustonOutlaws SFShock AtlantaReign DallasFuel
D: BostonUprising FloridaMayhem GuangzhouCharge ChengduHunters
Washington and Vancouver don't have many confirmed players, so I'm not including them right now
Dammit
It was the emotes
gaunt acorn
i wouldn't wholly agree with that
analog lark
Boston I'd move to tier B
gaunt acorn
A: 
B: 
C: 
D: 
i would guess
not much to go off, currently
i could be entirely wrong
that's just my current perception
