Hard to love fuel lul
#esports-discussion
hollow jasper
lyric pivot
@vagrant niche he use to be. Meta stopped calling for him. He might start again though
round obsidian
pearl stratus
Eh honestly I think Atlanta (looking over everything) will end up a mid-low team.
Their supports aren't bad, but on the weaker side for the league.
Tanks kind of the same, honestly.
And thats the most important part fo the team.
ruby pendant
Which teams do you think are top-tier?
gaunt acorn
currently? including the new teams? or only between the new teams?
sullen berry
both
which is clearly an unreasonable comparison but you know
you can sorta do it with two full rosters announced
gaunt acorn
we know basically every roster
sullen berry
what was the rumored roster from GZ and HZ?
they're mixed rosters, that's all i remember
ruby pendant
@gaunt acorn @sullen berry yeah both
lyric pivot
Top tier teams? LAG, LS, BU, NYE, and SD. I don't think any of the season 2 teams will be as good as these 5.
surreal lichen
Boston hasnt been “top tier” since stage 2-3 Season 1. Team is having internal rough patches and coaching/managing issues that’s been pushed under the rug for a while now (remember back when there was a leak that one of the teams had appalling living conditions and we all thought it was the SHD.. ) . Realistically top tier teams going into S2 would be NYXL (probably winning) , LS, LAG, whoever picks up Runaway and maybe.. just maybe.. DF.. shivers
lyric pivot
Fissure carried LAG and made them a stronger team. He'll do the same with dynasty.
Also I stated that these were the teams that season 2 new teams won't beat.
hidden vault
Is philly's playstyle still extremely centred around where Fragi goes?
queen drift
Fusion > BU / LAG / SD imo
gaunt acorn
yes
sullen berry
If fragi is present, then most likely
there's no reason to change the dive lead if he knows how to make the needed space for the rest of his team
we've seen sado/hotba tank duo... not be as aggressive
and able to pull similar if not better results
jagged crater
One meme at a time
jagged crater
Least we get to see more poko
pearl stratus
@ruby pendant Out of the new teams (if all rumors prove true)- Vancouver and Hangzhou are the two teams I expect to do well (low top to mid tier), Paris and Chengu I expect to be a solid mid-pack, with the others falling between mid to low.
People are going to expect Atlanta to do really well, and they won't. So they'll get all pissy, and jump ship, by about Stage 2.
verbal roost
Why Hangzhou?
pearl stratus
Strong tank line, strong DPS line, pretty solid supports.
Their biggest issue is going to be which tank they run - NoSmite will be easier with language, Guxue is the better tank.
Guxue speaks basic Korean and calls but that might not be enough at season start to earn him a starter spot
verbal roost
Go go guxue
pearl stratus
My biggest concern is their dps is a little hit scan heavy (from the ones leaked) but GodsB + Krystal will be a really really solid duo.
But the most important part of teams isn't the DPS, thats overall the least important.
Tank + Support line is the most important by far, and theirs is solid.
verbal roost
Who is their coach?
pearl stratus
MuHoLee if things are correct - he was the head coach of X-6 Gaming.
A few of the team members are from X-6 too, which always makes the transition easier
karmic grotto
When will the OWL start?
pearl stratus
Feb 14th
karmic grotto
Hmm, that's pretty far away
gaunt acorn
luckily world cup is in a couple days
pearl stratus
Yeah I'm not sure why the delay after the new year. I assumed it wouldn't start till at least January, but oh well.
Also I wonder what the outrage is going to be for Benchfran.
vagrant niche
naw, the dude is going to play with Torb
or maybe the new hero
Dafran is the boi
gaunt acorn
just look at stages 1 & 2 seagull
pearl stratus
I mean considering Torb is still a giant pile of shit, I doubt that 😛
Dafran hasn't played a pro match in what.. a year and six months? He's right saying he's going to be a bench player, and thats himself saying it.
limber pine
he'll have his places
but I doubt anymore than once or twice a stage
TB that is
not dafran
pearl stratus
Yeah, but its not like someones going to come out and main him.
It's like Bastion.
He'll have that map or two.
limber pine
well sure
i don't think TB will be anymore than map dependant
super pirateship or 2 CP maybe
pearl stratus
I see him more as point to point than full map.
Like Gibraltar defense, second point.
He'll shine there.
But he'd be horrible for A or C.
But that B point is so tight quarters
restive gyro
warped axle
I'm not going to hype up any new team
That way I don't get dissapointed
Even Vancouver could end up going the way of Seoul, so we shouldn't expect too much
pearl stratus
If they get Runaway with no changes, and the same coach, there's not really a hype to it.
Runaway is a team that was capable of beating Team SK this year (which they did - great match by the way) so its the only roster we actually know exactly how they'll play out and work together.
But for the rest I agree its pure speculation, but thats part of the fun.
pearl stratus
He was good enough for OWL.
Ironically if you break down his stats versus Birdring for when he had to replace them
They were very close.
gaunt acorn
runaway beating sk is not a great metric for evaluating their strength
that was a meme game
pearl stratus
I mean you have their entire previous history too.
warped axle
Team South Korea had no practice time for that match
gaunt acorn
yes, vs contenders talent
pearl stratus
I mean...
gaunt acorn
after all the best talent was already scouted for owl
pearl stratus
I'd argue there's a few Korean Contenders team that are better than half the OWL teams currently.
Or were.
They've been cannibalized now.
warped axle
If you put season 1 SHD in Korean Contenders, they'd still be an average team at best
gaunt acorn
even runaway, who won contenders korea, are still only mid-tier in owl
in their current form
pearl stratus
But I'd put Runaway or KDP (prior to being taken apart) against Dallas, San Fran, Florida, Shanghai, probably Houston as well.
Maybe Seoul too.
Since they casually imploded.
warped axle
I wish we got a Fusion University vs Runaway match
gaunt acorn
whoru vs haksal again biblethump
pearl stratus
I also think a lot of the current OWL teams are going to be changing drastically in power rankings with all the changes.
gaunt acorn
trending upwards, not down
pearl stratus
I think down then up, but yes.
gaunt acorn
that doesn't help the contenders-turned-owl teams at all
warped axle
SFS will stay the same imo
pearl stratus
Like I think LAG might struggle a bit through Stage 1 as they get accustomed to a new tank.
Shock I think will go up.
They have a real tank now.
Super was a pretty solid disappointment.
warped axle
They looked bad in California Cup
pearl stratus
Smurf is a huge increase.
warped axle
LAV didn't even look good
pearl stratus
Parts of LAV looked good, like Fate as always was solid.
gaunt acorn
i think you may be disappointed immediately evaluating runaway (vancouver) and kongdoo (shanghai) so high
pearl stratus
I didn't evaluate Shanghai that highly.
gaunt acorn
they are a year behind their competition
pearl stratus
I don't expect them to go past mid tier, tbh.
gaunt acorn
that is a big hurdle
pearl stratus
And even thats on the higher side.
gaunt acorn
none of them have owl experience
warped axle
SHD is tricky because they still probably have shitty management
pearl stratus
Nah.
gaunt acorn
or scrimmed the best players in the world all season
pearl stratus
Their management is BluHAS now, and it looks like they're being more hands off.
gaunt acorn
or an established coaching/support staff core
pearl stratus
So provided they let BluHas do his thing like they did for RUI
Shanghai will have management that isnt' stupid, finally:P
gaunt acorn
it's gonna be an uphill battle
pearl stratus
Oh without a doubt.
warped axle
Now if only Mayhem got staff that knew what they were doing
gaunt acorn
i think vancouver will only do okay stage 1
warped axle
Mineral should have been fired after a 1-9 first stage
gaunt acorn
and i'm a vancouverite
warped axle
Yet he's still here
pearl stratus
Super disappointing Season 1, really disappointing OWWC that showed a fundamental misunderstanding of the meta.
limber pine
dray plz
gaunt acorn
phon
pearl stratus
I think they have a more long term battle than short term, but I don't inherently disagree with you.
I think they'll be able to pick up some cheap easy wins since they won't have any growing / roster pains in the first Stage.
gaunt acorn
the odds are stacked against them from the start
pearl stratus
But once teams settle it'll be how quickly they get up to speed.
pearl stratus
Nah, Atlanta.
warped axle
Atlanta is the next Fusion
gaunt acorn
they need to invest in a solid experienced coaching core
and not cheap out on player amenities
pearl stratus
Big fan base of thirsty kids looking to eat some Dafran dick like it was XQC.
That are going to be disappointed when he barely plays and gets suspended 😛
warped axle
Dafran is much much different than xQc
gaunt acorn
i hope vancouver gets a team chef
limber pine
I hope DC announces anything soon
gaunt acorn
no egg for later?
pearl stratus
No egg for later, legit food finally.
warped axle
We still got Chef Heidi I think
pearl stratus
It was part of the Geguri picture thing.
Her pictures were legit almost all food.
It was funny.
warped axle
How does Torb counter Sombra in any way?
pearl stratus
Backline turret.
warped axle
If anything it would be the opposite
pearl stratus
It's a sacrifice of not commiting your turret to the front line fight
karmic grotto
Let Torb do what Torb only can do
pearl stratus
To protect your backline from some little hacking.
But its mediocre and not overly effective.
karmic grotto
pearl stratus
Also second Geguri picture:
"We have a chef for every meal"
Girl lives for food.
karmic grotto
Girl?
warped axle
We already have Tisumi
vagrant niche
Soe doesn't count
pearl stratus
I just want talented people, not streamers.
warped axle
I wish barcode was in contenders
pearl stratus
Streamers set this stupid expectation that ladder is real.
When Ladder to OWL is like..
Special Olympicswatch.
warped axle
cough Jjonak cough
pearl stratus
The one exception out of what, 130 players? 😛
So I guess there's like a .8% chance someone else could do it.
vagrant niche
I want to see Jjonak carry now with ana on the world cup
that's going to be good to watch
pearl stratus
His Ana play, in a pro environment, so far has been a bit disappointing actually.
pearl stratus
His mechanical Ana skill is on point with RHJ.
But I don't think he's really used to it in a pro environment, I expect it to be much better this weekend.
vagrant niche
maybe thiccus improved
pearl stratus
His play in his OWWC matches were actually really solid.
Looked like he found something he lost.
But also hard to tell since Incheon/LA had some of the easiest matches.
Actually all of them did.
Minus Bangkok.
Which actually had multiple decent teams instead of one or two.
pearl stratus
Paris had by far the easiest, because they didn't even get a counter team.
At least US had Canada, and SK had Finland.
warped axle
Denmark got robbed
pearl stratus
Yeah, Sweden was arguably the weakest team in the bracket too.
sullen berry
Paris was the easiest stage, as I didn't expect German's performance and neither Italy, in a good way
Middle brackets were far more exciting with fewer teams going into the group stage
But I don't know, it felt more like OWL with actual country representation
limber pine
Blizzard took a risk with no region lock or restrictions
It seems to be paying off, but we'll see if it remains to do so
sullen berry
It's definitely a worthwhile investment, never thought that the irk of zero region locking would wear off so quick after watch these teams perform
limber pine
agreed
Just wish EU and NA took Contenders as seriously as APAC and APEX
at least, was as organized
limber pine
is NLaaerR a better Mistakes?
pearl stratus
Apparently? It's expected he'll be a starter either way just due to experience
karmic grotto
Will there be a mock match between Atlanta and another new OWL team?
warped axle
Atlanta vs Florida 
karmic grotto
When?
pearl stratus
There will be pre-season, theoretically.
Not sure if they'll broadcast it all though
pearl stratus
I mean they won't 😛
Preseason will most likely be them getting the shit kicked out of them - especially the mixed roster teams with no previous cohesion.
Side note - RHJ, Fissure and Jecse are squading in Black Ops Blackout right now.
copper solstice
How good is NLaaeR besides on widow since isn’t widow his main?
pearl stratus
His Tracer and McCree are both solid, and thats really all you need.
For a hit-scan that is.
copper solstice
Yeah because wasn’t he one of the guys who were really noticeable from LNL when he was on LNL
pearl stratus
Erster is going to be their carry either way I feel like.
copper solstice
I never heard of erster until the announcement with there roster
pearl stratus
He's got a solid track history.
copper solstice
I don’t watch Korean overwatch or contenders whatever it is called
pearl stratus
He's been in China too, for LFZ.
copper solstice
Only EU and North America since they are on during when I’m awake
pearl stratus
He was on Ardeont with Diem, Smurf, etc.
And was a really good genji.
Honestly almost all of Ardeont that I can think of is in OWL now.
Anamo, Aimgod, Smurf, Dayfly, Diem
copper solstice
Except for republic
Wait he’s retired
LFZ has only two guys left which is lucid and idk
copper solstice
I have no idea still waiting to see Washington’s and Ontario full team and the other Canadian team
I forgot even China has hangzhou or the other one
pearl stratus
Chengdu, Hangzhou, and Guanzhou? 😛
Just use https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Za0l63sALaC-CE870rURO4GrRCAd694z8aYIzFoAaz8/edit#gid=0
It's pretty solidly up to date.
pearl stratus
DC is putting too much pressure on one player in each role imo.
Janus Ado and Gido
Are all basically being expected to carry their respective positions if they're confirmed.
And it sounds like a recipe for failure.
limber pine
i cry
copper solstice
Still willing to look at Washington
pearl stratus
But he's still Contenders not OWL.
Sansam should be fine, Meta Athena is a good feeder ground.
But MA also hasn't done a lot lately.
I just don't think the NRG pickups are going to be as strong as Washington wants (if confirmed).
I think it was a budget option.
And they'll get budget results.
copper solstice
You know I don’t know anyone of Vancouver or Washington besides like one or two.
limber pine
just a bunch of contenders players
Ado is okay
Gido is okay
the roster is just lacking
pearl stratus
It looks like, and partial bias on Kates budget comment, that they spent for the three OWL Koreans.
And had minimal spending available for the rest.
So you have this half solid, half budget roster.
copper solstice
Yeah, I know who gido and ado since weren’t they owl.
limber pine
Seoul and Shanghai, yes
copper solstice
Yeah
limber pine
yup
copper solstice
Yeah.
pearl stratus
Then honestly.
limber pine
Boston is doing what DC wants to do much better
pearl stratus
Atlanta is the second most disappointing to me.
The three Chinese rumored rosters all sound solid, in their own way.
limber pine
I still think ATL is miles ahead of DC though
pearl stratus
Hangzhou is just a pretty stacked roster overall, Chengdu will do okay if Sky can handle a mixed comms again.
And not shut down like he did on Shanghai.
I think having Silkthread will bridge that gap so well for him though
Silkthread is going to be Chengdu Bischu.
Basically.
ruby pendant
All this talk is getting me hype for next season!
pearl stratus
They do have access to Jqiren as well.
But I don't think he'll start over Beasthalo, personally.
But they've got options for Chinese tanks to run with Chinese supports.
marble quest
Wait is silkthread Chinese?
limber pine
yup
pearl stratus
He's American Chinese, but he's bilingual.
limber pine
^
pearl stratus
So whereas Bischu is your Canadirean
Silkthread is your Amerinese.
Once there was three chinese expansion teams announced I pretty much hoped we wouldn't see the end for Silkthread.
He's a promising player and I feel he got a bad deal on the LA teams.
marble quest
Oh cool
pearl stratus
He's also got a ridiculous Zarya flex too, which we saw in the great bamboozle on LAG.
glacial bear
dafran
copper solstice
Yes
balmy wolf
Ivy and Stellar confirmed for Toronto.
balmy wolf
I can’t get over how good the Defiant colors are
limber pine
not gonna lie, i thought the name and colors were meh before
but they're growing on me
balmy wolf
Well the name is eh, but Black and Red are usually the colors I wear a lot so I love it
Can’t wait to see what the Genji skin looks like
lilac atlas
torpid charm
I feel like Atlanta is burgundy if anything
torpid charm
Very true very true
tender crag
Does anyone know if anyone has any eu teams having trials?
torpid charm
my eyes have been opened
limber pine
That's wine red
so it's like a shade lighter
Maroon
somewhere around maroon and wine color
torpid charm
We’ve gotten away from the era of blue & moved into the era of red
queen drift
pathtopro btw
pearl stratus
Fuck Contenders, they should rotate more of it over to a collegiate league for path to pro.
It's a smarter long term solution.
Because then the majority of players who never make it at least have a future.
E-sports isn't sustainable enough to manage your Triple A baseball type status, or beer league football stuff.
You either succeed or fail.
queen drift
collegiate leagues are only really a thing in NA though, maybe KR I don't know
eu needs stuff like contenders
pearl stratus
EU has a university sports association.
But I think, personally, EU needs to do a better job of jockeying to be tied in with the premier league.
Which is something they'd have to do without Blizzard, but I think it'd have a pretty big potential.
EA is doing a good job with Fifa, though thats a natural tie in.
queen drift
you also dont need as many players for fifa tho
college teams in the UK for example I just haven't seen
pearl stratus
It's a hard sell either way, and I admit the EU is in a weird spot
Because its a lot of little countries in a relatively small space.
Which means lots of regulation and bs typically.
Also though if they rotate the US over to a collegiate they could reassign the money to EU Contenders.
If your e-sports is helping pay for your college that's better than a prize pool, and then you could double/triple the options elsewhere.
I think last I checked UCI (Univ. California Irvine) had something like a $24-25,000 scholarship for e-sports.
Maybe they'll 180 it and require all OWL teams to have an academy team, mandated. Slap Optic with a warning for GGEA but let the orgs do it with a small mandated salary XD
vagrant niche
holy crap. the WoW twitch chat people hate OWL 
slow walrus
why lmao
slow walrus
@queen drift TESPA (collegiate competitive overwatch and esports) is expanding to Korea apparently
jagged crater
OWL commercial with j lul ke really
slow walrus
lol
pearl stratus
Do you know how much money houston made over J LUL KE?
jagged crater
link
pearl stratus
Reinforce has an interesting point on the Contenders changes, its a bit high handed on the hope - but not inherently wrong.
Twitter
limber pine
i mean, the argument makes sense
pearl stratus
It does, I just think its a bit on the hopeful side without Blizzard somewhat enforcing Academy Teams.
limber pine
but the heavily touted "Path to Pro" has been muddled quite a bit
pearl stratus
I still think for NA collegiate is better than contenders, as I said above.
I think it removes the biggest issue, being money, from the equation quite a bit.
vagrant niche
where is the clip button on twitch?
pearl stratus
Academy teams are your second best but I feel like they should be region locked for a certain percentage.
I.E like... 60% of the team must be from the region they're located in.
limber pine
i think they already said that the next season will be region-limited
pearl stratus
@slow walrus I'm still torn on that, because you want the best players possible.
limber pine
fuck I literally just read it somewhere
pearl stratus
But I think regionally you want to showcase local talent a bit more.
I think the skill gap has dropped considerably but the biggest factor that Korea has an advantage for is they actually support their e-sports scene.
No one else does.
So you get more, varied, better supported players.
So the volume is just increase because it becomes a national export.
Like American Baseball importing from South America.
So while I'm pro region locking I understand companies want to invest in known, quantifiable, successful players.
It's why I always argue people picking up streamer/non-professional/toxic personalities is a hell of a risk on a 35 million dollar buy in.
slow walrus
you're not wrong
I still think it would potentially promote more viewership too if players on a team were from that region
tends to have the same appeal that the world cup does
communication also becomes easier in game
pearl stratus
Well here was my thought process:
Bloat the Academy team presence, provide them with free passes so its a secure investment. Not an investment that can lose its contenders spot.
Shift the contenders schedule to be opposite of OWL, not concurrent.
This provides a higher available viewership because you're not competing with timing, etc. And provides viewers with something to watch during hte off-season.
slow walrus
contenders definitely needs a PR boost and more resources to get well known
I'd agree with that
pearl stratus
The problem is its not worth the resources in the NA right now.
It's viewership is so bad they're most likely losing money every Contenders season.
slow walrus
I think blizzard could hype up college play a lot too
pearl stratus
If it shifts to Academy teams providing some compensation and opens Blizz up to lowering prize pools for a few larger ones I think it has potential to stabilize.
And I agree, College play needs the hype because you don't need prizes.
slow walrus
rn it's private, through TESPA and not blizzard
pearl stratus
They're playing for their schools etc.
And they have a degree afterwards so if they fail making it to OWL they have a fall back.
pearl stratus
I mean more than just that - its cheap.
slow walrus
(I'm a bit biased tho as a college player)
pearl stratus
E-sports, in essence, is a very cheap sport to maintain for a college
There's no 3 million field improvement you need.
Just upgrade computer parts.
balmy wolf
pearl stratus
Your needs are literally: Room with 10-12 computers, some form of liquid so people don't die, keep computers upgraded.
Eh.
Just fl0w3r.
I'm not expecting much out of him, to be honest.
pearl stratus
He'll do fine once he settles in, injuries leveled him out too hard.
slow walrus
yeah at UW the scene feels underwhelming
our a team is ranked 4th in TESPA right now and we have nothing to show for it; no recognition or hype outside of our own organization
we're just getting a gaming arena this year; it was supposed to be finished already
the other area to game has 60hz monitors and shitty computers
slow walrus
wdym
verbal roost
Recognition for you
pearl stratus
I think if Blizzard was smart they'd attempt to bring Tespa into contenders, and provide them the same relegation as Academy teams.
The problem is I think most university teams would get destroyed.
Badly.
So its a bad long term idea.
slow walrus
that's why it needs to be university vs university
verbal roost
Idk if tespa players want to play contenders though
pearl stratus
UCI also gives a ton of scholarship, so its not surprising.
slow walrus
yeah 😦
pearl stratus
I looked it up, btw. It's 24k.
slow walrus
insane
verbal roost
To play Overwatch?
slow walrus
they also hosted the california cup if I'm not wrong
verbal roost
Wow
verbal roost
How many students? Just one?
pearl stratus
I didn't see how many they offer, but I doubt its just one.
I know Columbia College wanted to grow theirs out to 35 full scholarships eventually.
Right now they do annual 5k grants (renewable)
verbal roost
Columbia plays esports?
slow walrus
most colleges have a team
pearl stratus
Columbia College, not University.
slow walrus
in TESPA, it's just a question of whether the team is recognized and supported by their university or not
UCI's team I'd imagine has a coach; they get scholarships and shit
limber pine
slow walrus
but UW's team only gets funding because we're registered as a student organzation and we have a lot of members
verbal roost
Uw doesn’t have a coach?
slow walrus
we've hired coaches/had coaches (i think one) but it comes out of our own club money we could use for something else
it's a sacrifice
the rest of the coaching is done by veteran players which is suboptimal
pearl stratus
You should try talking to some other universities.
I'm pretty sure there's 2-3 colleges over in Boston area that have e-sports coaching as a degree program.
They'd probably do it for cheap/free if they could convince their school to provide credits for it.
verbal roost
I’d rather watch tespa than contenders
pearl stratus
I'd watch both, but they're always at awkward times
If NA contenders was going on right now?
I'd be wathcing the hell out of it.
Instead we have this weird dead spot.
slow walrus
rn TESPA is in pre-season so none of the matches are streamed except by the players themselves on a 3 minute delay
no commentary
verbal roost
Ugh
slow walrus
no spectators
pearl stratus
Yeah it looks like Brandeis (?) and Becker both paired with GamerSensei.
GamerSensei is a boston based e-sports coaching firm.
verbal roost
Uci streams on twitch sometimes but other games
slow walrus
I think some TESPA matches are commented on in the regular season for matches between like top 10 teams but all I could find when I looked was videos on youtube from like season 2 of OW competitive
verbal roost
Maybe with the new feature streaming will be easier for Overwatch
slow walrus
new feature?
verbal roost
New spectator mode
pearl stratus
Oh hey, you can book Shifty XD
limber pine
Twitter
verbal roost
balmy wolf
Dude some of the OWL players got together to talk about the contenders stuff
@slow walrus tespa matches are streamed in normal season
currently in off season our games are just streamed by players (3 minute delay)
also as for recognition
oh youre on that team
nvm
balmy wolf
im on UH Premier
our coach is through a friend of mine who coached an aussie contendies team but its purely just bc he wants to get into coaching tespa + knows me
many teams dont have legit coaches
collegiate used to be a meme
now we make more money than contenders
upper niche
limber pine
From what I heard from a few ppl, it’s likely half truth
Almost every bullet point is missing the second part
pearl stratus
I love how many people on the subreddit gobble down that danish butter cookie and think Dafran is going to like... be the second coming of jesus in OWL.
vagrant niche
cause he is 
at least to me
my hopes is that with the new hero, the meta changes into something favorable he can strive on
green stump
@pearl stratus I think he will do what xqc couldn't
balmy wolf
@verbal roost univ of houston
also dafran is by no means shape or form OWL ready
people in OWL have been scrimming 7+ hours a day 5 days a week with professional coaching staff
dafran wont be "bad" but he wont carry games and be the korean contender like people think he will
@limber pine youd be amazed how many contenders players are swapping over to blops 4 in terms of actual participation in esports
and you cant... blame them
bitter phoenix
I hope he does carry games because it will be a meme
balmy wolf
these people are better than me by miles in scrims, they deserve far more for their determination
@vagrant niche honestly if he does, itd be better bc that makes OWL that much more fun to watch
pearl stratus
I mean Dafran thinks he's going to be a bench player (which he will) for a long while. It's a bad meta for what was his pro hero pool, and he's out of practice by 16 months.
green stump
@balmy wolf isn't the rumor of the leak completely blown out of proportion though?
pearl stratus
Most likely.
bitter phoenix
I love scrims it's crazy the skill gap between scrims and comp ladder play
pearl stratus
There'a also large benefits to the academy situation, if more teams pick up academy teams.
balmy wolf
i heavily doubt the re-trialing thing is correct as well as only 2 seasons thing
pearl stratus
Especially if they do the region locking they were talking about.
bitter phoenix
Even with pick up teams
balmy wolf
i really dont doubt blizzard lowering prize pools and removing LAN tho
pearl stratus
Since they were mentioning doing a percentage of Contenders teams as region locked.
I mean thats a financial decision sadly.
People always say they love contenders.
Then 12 people actually watch it.
karmic grotto
pearl stratus
So it fails.
green stump
@balmy wolf from what I was hearing, the people complaining are ones who wanted to get everything and give up nothing and just get a free pass
vagrant niche
@pearl stratus Hey, i actually watch some NA contenders
i have posted it here many times
and people don't talk about it
so i just move to Twitch chat
balmy wolf
Here's a screenshot of a convo between a legal rep from blizz and I (in regards to me joining a contenders team). They really dont care about who joins the team as opposed to the very intricately detailed explanations on which entities/orgs can join an OWL team
(had to cut out team name sorry)
vagrant niche
ye something like that
balmy wolf
compared to the how many millions for owl
pearl stratus
Which isn't worth spending lan money on sadly.
Because that stuff, and flying people around, gets expensive.
balmy wolf
thats why i dont doubt them removing lan or dropping prize pool
i can see them investing in SK contenders and such bc its really favorable for them there
pearl stratus
However Reinforce, despite being called a shill, made a decent point.
karmic grotto
SK
vagrant niche
i don't like bliz wanting to monopolize the 3rd party scene
balmy wolf
south korea
karmic grotto
Ik
vagrant niche
by restricting them etc
karmic grotto
pearl stratus
With Academy teams have a distinct auto pass it gives more teams a worry free investment into Academy Teams.
balmy wolf
i mean its a sport literally owned by blizzard, its a monopoly by default
pearl stratus
Which means less third party orgs and more stable orgs.
balmy wolf
endoken brings up a good poinnt
pearl stratus
If it actually plays out like that.
green stump
@balmy wolf and even more on top of that
pearl stratus
I mean GGEA would be completely avoided with the auto-pass too, for the most part.
But it creates an actual minor league.
balmy wolf
that make false promises and go back on their contracts of offering money to coaches/managers
bitter phoenix
Nv was shady as fuck back In cod days
pearl stratus
ESPECIALLY if they region lock team %.
balmy wolf
^^^^
pearl stratus
Which they mentioned, @limber pine brought it up too.
bitter phoenix
Same with fear
balmy wolf
ggea is literally an academy team and screwed up massively with that
bitter phoenix
Fear still owes me money e.e
balmy wolf
lol
pearl stratus
So if you force 60% of your team for a region to be from that region
You grow your non SK player bases
balmy wolf
luckily with tespa, its all under contract thats signed and approved by blizzard
green stump
@balmy wolf with the rumors, this sounds like franchise and academy teams will get the solid structure they are looking for AND will give players real opportunity to show their value to go t1
vagrant niche
maybe if people could do big tournament series without being restricted, other players could make a big name for themselves
balmy wolf
@green stump it makes it even harder for people to devotr time towards actually improving
green stump
@balmy wolf in the na you mean?
pearl stratus
@green stump There's still a lot of unknowns though, which is why the ourage
green stump
Due to the number of games they have to play? But have we learned in the structure of the games? I thought they were speak out
balmy wolf
frankly in NA if you win every single t2 tourney and contenders thing you still cannot afford a decent wage for living
now that money income has become even less
pearl stratus
Thats not indicative of E-sports though
green stump
@pearl stratus the outrage is stupid... They are taking such a small amount of detail as fact
balmy wolf
its still a leak so fingers crossed
the biggest issue is the prize pool lowering honestly
which i really honestly wouldnt be surprised if that was true
pearl stratus
If you're not on a major triple A farm team in Baseball for instance.
green stump
@balmy wolf wouldn't the inclusion of franchising allow better sponsors and deals with players
balmy wolf
everything else is a minor issue by comparison
vagrant niche
video games are still a "joke" job except for a specific group of people
karmic grotto
@vagrant niche it is
green stump
This is almost exactly how college football came to be
balmy wolf
@green stump those better sponsors and player deals would go to OWL spots, almost no one wants to be associated with contenders directly
vagrant niche
on Korea is different i think
pearl stratus
It's literally every minor league.
karmic grotto
You need to be Pro to get advantage
pearl stratus
It's why college sports got so popular.
If you're not a pro, you're shit.
And you don't get paid.
pearl stratus
Contenders isn't some new unicorn
green stump
@balmy wolf ?? Why would franchise money go to owl? They have a completely different sponsorship than franchise
pearl stratus
It's just the first one losers pay attention to 😛
balmy wolf
as in companies would focus far more on owl rather than contenders
dude people literally meme through open div trials and such JUST to be able to sell their contenders spot
its absolutely useless
green stump
@balmy wolf those aren't francises though... Franchises create star atheletes to sell to pro teams
green stump
Yeah
balmy wolf
idk much about them to make a fair statement
ive only ever been in talks with current organizations with academy teams, not so much other 3rd parties
green stump
That's what this whole thing is about...franchising is big money for them... If they don't get quality material to sell, they go broke, so they put money into their players to make them stars, not enough to be pro mind you, but enough to get back their investment and then some
balmy wolf
on paper that sounds like a massive gamble on the franchises part
esports is still very very very new
karmic grotto
Money ruins alot and builds alot
balmy wolf
theres no analyses or critics or professional sports writers to accurately tell who will be good etc
vagrant niche
who is the best org? Fusion?
green stump
@balmy wolf not really, they've done it though a lot of different mediums, not just esports, issue comes from corruption when they are trying to sell their players
vagrant niche
that treats players with good pay and treatment?
balmy wolf
or the people who knows the difference between some random mid gm like me or an actually semi pro good player
vagrant niche
and opportunity
balmy wolf
yeah that too
@vagrant niche xl2 does a decent job from what ive heard from players
iostux left because $$$
green stump
With franchise, you will clearly know who is a t2 players
If you don't enough of value, you fall back to t3, if you are a star, your franchise can be clearly invested into
College football is basically this whole thing
vagrant niche
I'm also going to blame bliz on catering much to the casuals over the past years instead of trying to cultivate a more competitive crowd on their game
more people would watch competitive scenes etc if people were invested on it
we should had gotten replay system and guild system a long time ago
instead, we had 3 lucio balls etc
freaking joke
green stump
@balmy wolf basically, how you make money as a player, franchise buys your contact, you are expected to perform. You do so, your value of a player goes up, the higher you do up, the more the franchise fights for your salary because they make money off you and the buyout for your contract, they take that money and do it again with more players and so on
fading sun
many players cant even make their career cause u need your top 150 players of country
to be over an average of other countries
competing
green stump
@fading sun that's how franchise fixed this, they buy you as an growing investment
fading sun
u can find many good t2 players that dont have the chance to go high
in my country the game is kinda rip jobwise
i know some good t2 players but they just quit
green stump
That can suck...
fading sun
there is no future:P
plus the game is going nonskill +extra cc as the time goes on
they pleasure the big playerbase and remove the skill kinda
green stump
Lol if this franchise deal goes through though (which I think it did cause I saw a Samsung contenders team pop up and they are a big franchiser
fading sun
i dont know how things are now but, before you needed to play high and show your skills to start your career
cause there are tons of players
many that are good not as a widow or genji but good flexing
green stump
Early traditional sport recruitment yeah, that's very true, that's how contenders basically was.
Franchising is a bit more experienced, locating players they believe they can polish into something great
pearl stratus
Worry free investment is good too.
If you're not constantly dropping out or not qualifying, etc, etc, it makes a lot more sense to keep an Academy Team.
And I think this season will help show how the flex contracts are really beneficial and the funnel can be huge.
fading sun
im just sad the system isn;t fair
pearl stratus
There were no flex contracts in Season 1, it wasn't something to think about.
No non-pro system is fair.
Be better.
green stump
@pearl stratus if it works out the way I think it does, high chance, but blizzard needs to protect their players at the same time
pearl stratus
That's life.
pearl stratus
Everyone does.
If you don't you're a fucking idiot.
Flat out.
Not even attempting to be rude.
fading sun
but they are selling their games out
pearl stratus
No they're not.
fading sun
from my prespective they done it
green stump
Where did you hear that?
fading sun
by alot
pearl stratus
If you have a system where you're not making the money you put into it back, its a bad system.
pearl stratus
And you either make it viable, or you get rid of it.
sullen berry
you have to sell a game
pearl stratus
You think they're selling out, they're probably staying in the black
vagrant niche
overwatch f2p when?
sullen berry
if you want to have people buy it or take mindshare from all other games
fading sun
nah
sullen berry
I'm actually thinking this @vagrant niche
fading sun
owatch easier low skill ceiling characters
sullen berry
for quite some time, they have to be more transparent with player numbers
fading sun
= you please the big audience that wants to fill good carrying
but game goes noskill
wow= tons of expansions the game changed itself many times
green stump
@fading sun okay but that's not the pro scene at all.... The pro scene is very different from ladder with players who won't even talk to each other
fading sun
hstone= new heroes just to milk money (anoybot)
im generaly talking about blizz
their games are gems but they dont carry it on good later on
green stump
... Sounds like your talking about any game company
balmy wolf
@vagrant niche the issue with casual not comp aspect is that it favors newcomers but really shits on people who have honed mechancial akills
spelling is for losers
vagrant niche
I don't think Overwatch was a big traditional FPS for mechanical stuff, that's why Siege etc are for
i see OW as a mix of casuals and technical
green stump
Well players on ladder are fundamentally different than pro overall...a scrim with two full teams who practice with each other repeatedly have a vastly different experience than just ladder play
vagrant niche
and low shields
balmy wolf
i.e. mercy was always extremely difficult to pull off in a competitive scene like pugs or t3 games because she required the least mechanical skill, and as such was rewarded less. when brig was launched she took little to no mechanical skill yet was so rewarding that it really wasnt fair to people who were mechanically good
pearl stratus
Oh you're one of those whiners
fading sun
mercy is a special character anyways
green stump
@fading sun games change... Every competitive game changes
fading sun
u could find 1 holding down left mouse without turning or 1 carrying you as healer to victory
green stump
The truly skilled adapt, the ones who don't, fall
balmy wolf
to do good as zen you need good aim, positioning, and game awareness. to do good as brig you need somewhat ok positioning for bash shatter
fading sun
its not that hard to adapt but its sad to not reward skill
balmy wolf
(at launch)
green stump
Are you just complaining about Brig?
balmy wolf
well shes an example
fading sun
true
green stump
She's the only example....
balmy wolf
brig, df, mercy, and moira are the offenders
fading sun
as long as u have a dva eatin the orbs shes useless
green stump
Isn't that the point? If everything stays the same, why watch?
vagrant niche
without Brig, we have tracer and Genji back
fading sun
generaly 1 tricking isnt good and no1 likes 1 tricks in his game:P
vagrant niche
the game kind of needs her
rustic plaza
they still get play
fading sun
u have mcree
green stump
Indeed
fading sun
to deal with that
vagrant niche
mccree you have to babysit too much
fading sun
u dont need a hardcounter thats so hard to kill
rustic plaza
mccree is a dive target
green stump
... Okay.. But that doesn't change anything..it keeps things the same back from season 6
rustic plaza
he is good rn cuz brig heal and peel
green stump
Why on Earth would you want to keep things the same for season after season?
fading sun
you can have a gold gamesense brig up to master
just cause of the character efficiency
green stump
... Okay.. No
low mirage
What we talking about
green stump
Your saying that off only 2 or 3 people who did it.. Not everyone was able to do that
fading sun
i have seen alot of brig 1tricks lately
low mirage
@fading sun I play brig a lot and I'm gold. You saying I should be master?
green stump
Okay but there are Brig one tricks in lower ranks who are still struggling
fading sun
you dont need aim you just need to know how to initiate
low mirage
They're all over
low mirage
Tough to get back when your shield gets destroyed fast and your self heal has been nerfed
fading sun
or bad pcs?
fading sun
u can use bash to move around too
low mirage
You need almost nothing to run OW
low mirage
I get 60 on a crappy laptop
green stump
... Okay.. So you think because the hero works differently, that ruins the game? Brig is one of the weakest heals and can be destroyed easily with a little bit of thought
fading sun
if u played on 144hz your aim would improve
low mirage
She's more dps than anything and gets melted with her shield nerf
vagrant niche
hehe, the game needs optimization, S4 the other day was complaining about fps on League rigs
fading sun
shes a jack of all trades and shes hard to kill
green stump
What's hard is to get to her if she's in the middle of everyone
vagrant niche
goats is not dive???
green stump
The hell are you talking about?
fading sun
goats is dive
green stump
No it's not
vagrant niche
wat
fading sun
with shield
green stump
... No it's not
low mirage
Her bash has a 7 second recharge, and only 500 health. Her heal is once every 6 seconds, and her self heal was nerfed. She is very balanced now
green stump
Dive is very very different from goats
low mirage
He is right.
balmy wolf
@rustic plaza having an aimless hero that is EXTREMELY hard to play against be a required hero isnt "wild"
fading sun
mate
get the hard counter definition
u pick phara and mcree 2 shots u
widow 1 shots u
low mirage
Dive focuses one target. Goats focuses on charging in, disrupting the team, and killing everyone
fading sun
a character as a healer
balmy wolf
long story short on dive vs goats
fading sun
shouldnt have that much survivability
balmy wolf
goats is 3 tanks and 3 supps playing VERY tightly together moving quickly together to take close quarters fights
fading sun
you choke the enemy team
green stump
@fading sun dive is precision focus fire, and takes a huge amount of coordination to do correctly..
Goats is a muscle comp meant to overwhelm and gain fast ult charge though aoe heals and big house. Those are very different
fading sun
i call that focus dive
green stump
Then your wrong
low mirage
I call you wrong
vagrant niche
My take is that the game is balanced right now, people are just sleeping in on some characters
fading sun
while dive as generality moving fast to point
green stump
... No
balmy wolf
dive is 2 mobile tanks with 2 mobile dps with a mobile supp and damage enhancing zen to jump 1 target to kill and then move to the next
fading sun
maybe i use wrong definition
balmy wolf
the game is not balances atm
vagrant niche
and letting the meta stay the same
rustic plaza
wot
green stump
Dive doesn't even bother with the point
balmy wolf
doomfist and sombra is by far stronger than any other dps
low mirage
The game is balanced, and onstad of focusing on what characters need nerds or dont, they should focus on buffs
balmy wolf
tanks are fine
fading sun
df could get balanced
balmy wolf
the game... is not... balanced..
fading sun
could be
fading sun
if he got shield gain nerf
how
easy to punch some1
instantly gains tons of shield
which is hard to kill afterwards
low mirage
Around 40
balmy wolf
He has extremely mobile rollouts that are easy to land with a free get ouf of jail card with his ult
green stump
@fading sun before your start rambling about terms, your need to learn what the actual strategies are and for God's sake, stop copying what others say when your don't know the context behind it
fading sun
low cd kit to escape
pearl stratus
It depends where you want to play him if he's balanced.
fading sun
if he has ult he can get another kill atleast
balmy wolf
if you want to play a sub contenders team without doomfist youre essentially throwing
balmy wolf
im not a pro
green stump
.... No your not...
pearl stratus
But thats a different question entirely.
balmy wolf
im just collegiate
vagrant niche
if only Lucio had his original ultimate, we could counter Doomfist easily
pearl stratus
Because you balanced around bad people
rustic plaza
tespa seems fun
pearl stratus
You're going to have a bad game.
low mirage
DF requires coordination, skill, and dedication. He is a high risk high reward style character
pearl stratus
Less so with his armor changes.
balmy wolf
no... he doesnt ..
fading sun
he doesnt
pearl stratus
The problem is right now if you nerf him for the mediocre players
balmy wolf
i could literally swap to df and play like an average df
pearl stratus
You drop him entirely out of pro play again.
pearl stratus
So where do you want to balance?
fading sun
-cordination-
balmy wolf
how to get a kill as df
low mirage
Coordination with yourself jackass
balmy wolf
E then shift and some left clicks, turn then right click
pearl stratus
Arounds pros, or peons.
balmy wolf
coordination with yourself
vagrant niche
Pros
balmy wolf
platchat im out
low mirage
Lot of hand eye coordination
fading sun
lol
green stump
@fading sun that's not the heroes fault though that he's extremely effective at the biggest problem with the ladder community and that's communication and paying attention
pearl stratus
And if you balance around pros then Doomfist is slightly on the high end, but not overpowered.
vagrant niche
always balance around pros
fading sun
thats the balancing dev team's fault
pearl stratus
He could still be toned down, easily.
pearl stratus
but his current balance breaks ladder and low end tiers.
fading sun
whatever attention you pay there will be a moment that there is no hook or bubble
green stump
Someone get this man a shovel!
fading sun
and if he is on you, you are dead
if he gets the pick then he gets shield etc you know what i mean
a df using his basic combos efficiently can hit master
low mirage
So what do you say to do? Get rid of his shield gain?
vagrant niche
maybe give Orisa a way to transfer her hardening skills? not sure if that would cause bigger offenders like Genji Nano harderning
vagrant niche
when i play as Orisa, nobody focus on the halt
even when i call out i'm doing halt
i find it a shame
green stump
Anyways though...
low mirage
Orisa could use a buff more than doom needs a nerf
green stump
S2 owl, looking better every announcement
slow walrus
doom needs a nerf
orisa is situational and is a good pick depending on the rest of your team
doom is a must pick
can carry in every situation
vagrant niche
i think you just described the main tank role
pearl stratus
Again my question rises how do you nerf him so he's not useless for better players though.
low mirage
Well all heroes can if you use them properly
pearl stratus
Because all they did was change his armor a little bit, and he's still not must pick in OWL overall.
low mirage
Reduce fist damage imo.
low mirage
That's it.
slow walrus
I mean
low mirage
His uppercut doesn't do tons of damage and it has the knockback thing,
pearl stratus
Might not.
slow walrus
you need to introduce something that punishes him for using his cooldowns incorrectly
low mirage
I dont think that would be good
slow walrus
some way to reward skill based play and punish the lack thereof
pearl stratus
So for the collegiate level, he's broken. It sucks.
vagrant niche
to trap him
pearl stratus
But for the pro level he's not, which also sucks.
He's got a weird limbo about him.
slow walrus
as it is, his hero is way too forgiving with the number of chances he gets to get a kill
low mirage
Doom is a very hard character to play and master
low mirage
His kit is simple, but he's very hard to master
pearl stratus
But he's really not.
raven aspen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY8ltaXAUxg
1:38 0.25 speed if he aimlocking near the head tell me?
go to 1:38
.25 speed
vagrant niche
👀