and a huge part of modern korean society
#esports-discussion
paper crag
pearl stratus
I was just sad I couldn't find numerical viewership numbers.
fading wasp
Do y'all feel like there's much of a stigma about esports in the US? I don't really talk to people about it so I wouldn't have much of a way of knowing.
pearl stratus
Since so much of e-sports in Korea gets televised versus just streamed.
I don't think there's a stigma, i think its more about embracing it.
Korea, in my opportunity, took a huge gamble and embraced the PC/Internet culture towards the 2000s and the government handled a lot of internet running, etc, that really enabled it to be a huge thing.
pearl stratus
You'll notice gaming in general is bigger in countries that had more direct control and wired out their countries however, that's kind of undeniable.
paper crag
the gaming industry itself is pretty often under attack by the older, more conservative crowd right now
pearl stratus
I'm talking strictly just internet.
amber pine
It's not official yet but Boston and Valiant are mathematically unable to get into playoffs
pearl stratus
Because internet plays a huge role in the growth of e-sports as well, imo.
paper crag
of course it does
amber pine
Their map balance is too low
paper crag
internet play, or Battlenet, for Brood War, is what fueled Korea's Esport boom
pearl stratus
So you get countries like Korea and Japan who hardwire out on the governmental level, then you get monopolized countries struggling for even mediocre decent speed.
fading wasp
I feel like a big problem with esports' adaptation as opposed to traditional sports is that there are so many esports games. It's not just one or two things to follow, so the audience gets split up big time. I'd thing CoD, CS:GO, and LoL are the most recognizable esports, but there's a ton of variety.
pearl stratus
There is a ton of variety but they do, publically, tend to follow a trend.
paper crag
would be hilarious if 400 years in the future, we see "official" esport games
pearl stratus
It's probably a 70-30 split of people primarily playing the same game and some offshoots.
paper crag
literally labeled MOBA
FPS
like "soccer," "baseball"
a unified game for a genre lol
pearl stratus
Also because the US was so late in joining e-sports as a thing, for a myriad of reasons, we don't have the generational support for the younger audience.
signal fossil
CoD. Esport. HAH. There's not enough depth in CoD for it to even be a fucking esport
fading wasp
@signal fossil popular, not legit.
pearl stratus
I couldn't imagine telling my mother "Hey I want to quit school and play video games" and having it go anyway other than an ass whooping.
signal fossil
Fair
paper crag
lol that's still how it is in korea
pearl stratus
But if my kid were to ask me that, and he/she was good enough I'd consider it.
fading wasp
I mean that if you are a baseball fan, you (usually) mean MLB and/or college. Same with football with the NFL, soccer with MLS/FIFA, and baseball with the NBA. You don't know what someone's talking about if they say they're a fan of "esports."
signal fossil
Fair point, but gameplay-wise it's still got about as much depth as a kiddie pool
paper crag
hence it's not really a national pastime understood by every generation
forest wharf
the shock getting a 3-1 on houston is pretty shocking 
paper crag
i've never seen anyone who said they're a fan of esports though
i feel like those conversations often start with "what do you play?" "oh i play so and so" "oh cool. do you follow the pro scene?"
not like "i like esports" out of nowhere
fading wasp
I'm referring to mainstream adaptation, not within the fanbase.
pearl stratus
Well there's really never been a global e-sport that broke any boundaries of what was expected of them.
fading wasp
That's where the problem with that lies
pearl stratus
Which is what OW is trying to do - you can notice it with them changing the verbiage as well as the stupid little infographic cut ins.
fading wasp
Because the market is so fragmented, in relation to physical sports
pearl stratus
That tell us what the map types are.
paper crag
yeah that's definitely a difficulty
pearl stratus
I mean its because as an audience we don't matter, in the big picture.
We're already here.
Fuck us.
They need new people to watch now.
paper crag
but i also think it's a matter of esport's current state of its development
pearl stratus
Basic economic corporate viewpoint 😛
paper crag
like, right now, "esport" is on the same level as "soccer" or something like that
not "sports"
fading wasp
There's a big difference between 1,500 new people from outside the community following 10 pro scenes each, and 15,000 getting into a single pro scene.
Having that all split up hinders the spread
pearl stratus
Well honestly as an audience gamers kind of don't matter.
You already know they're fickle and obnoxious.
paper crag
maybe dota, overwatch, starcraft would be subcategories of "esport" in the future like soccer, baseball, basketball are "sports"
fading wasp
That's why I'm saying "from outside the community"
paper crag
in the future
pearl stratus
Yeah its the same for everything, tbh.
paper crag
and we'll have an actual official game for each genre lol
pearl stratus
When I first got out of college I worked for a cell phone provider.
And the general motto was 'Customer retention isn't super important, get new people."
pearl stratus
I think the genre would need to change a lot for that, tbh. RTS isn't flashy.
It's why I think OW has a chance to succeed.
it's flashy, brightly colored, etc.
fading wasp
It can be overwhelming for someone outside the scene to go "hey, I want to see what this whole esports thing is about," then be presented with tens of games and tournaments and leagues. A lot less easily digested than someone saying "I want to get into watching hockey" then tuning into the Stanley Cup.
pearl stratus
All easily marketable traits.
paper crag
RTS is pretty flashy imo
pearl stratus
Not to someone who has no clue whats going on.
paper crag
i also think RTS is the easiest to actually present
because of the natural top down view
or quarter view
pearl stratus
Think of you trying to explain the micro-level of Starcraft to your mom.
Then think about explaining OW.
paper crag
switching cameras everywhere, not knowing where somebody is?
i actually have explained starcraft to my mom on many occasions as an elementary student in korea
to a complete newcomer, it's easier to explain that there are two armies going against each other and who won a battle or is winning the game from an aerial view
fading wasp
Games like Overwatch are easier to figure out what's going on without knowledge of the game. It's "that guy's throwing shurikens at the guy with the gun" vs. "that weird catfish just swallowed that little fire girl who has a monster teddy bear"
paper crag
"hey these colored guys just killed a bunch of other colored guys, he just won the battle" is easier imo
than perspectives switching between 12 players
and different heroes doing different things and not understanding the significance of their abilities
pearl stratus
Yeah but from a general audience trying to watch starcraft is personally hugely detached. There's often too much for a lengthy caring standpoint.
Or most RTS.
The actual combat isn't highlighted realistically - its still cool, don't get me wrong, but for a non-gamer to appreciate what goes on it has no grabbing viewpoint.
You don't really actually see things fight, they just kind of blob together till one blob still exists.
paper crag
that's the thing though. i feel like so many FPS's require you to know what's going on, what the map looks like, etc to even understand anything beyond "this guy just killed someone"
fading wasp
Plus, RTS games are entirely unsatisfying to watch if you don't know everything that actually goes into winning. I don't know anything about StarCraft. If I were to watch an insane comeback, I wouldn't know what I was seeing. If you showed me a random FPS that I'd never seen before, I would get the excitement of a big play.
pearl stratus
But thats the thing - you really don't need to understand more than "That guy just killed someone."
It's a finite outcome.
paper crag
at least in an RTS, you see that one blob ran over another blob and won a battle
paper crag
from a non-gamer perspective, landing a sick headshot is just as mundane as junkrat double mines
fading wasp
But the person still knows what's going on
pearl stratus
Ah but that's where, in my opinion, OW went super smart with it.
fading wasp
It's still easily digested
paper crag
same with RTS where a big battle shows a winner and a loser
pearl stratus
That sound becomes instantly recognizable to a viewer.
paper crag
as someone who's been following numerous esports since its inception, FPS has by far been the hardest to grasp as a viewer
fading wasp
But you can see every little thing that people do in an FPS. You just see annnnnd that guy won with RTS games.
paper crag
i mean i literally watched esports before it was called esports
pearl stratus
As someone with a 60 year old white lady for a mom, trust me. OW did it well.
paper crag
focusing on micromanagement skills of RTS players is also missing the point
sure, it's very important and CAN turn the tide of an otherwise even match
but that's like saying "he has good aim on winston"
fading wasp
heh
paper crag
if you're trying to compare why RTS isn't easy to appreciate as opposed to FPS because new viewers wouldn't appreciate the micro skills
what's easy to see for anyone is that one color is taking up more of the map than the other color, one color has a bigger army but the other color somehow wins through strategy
etc
fading wasp
I'm trying to say that someone who watches Overwatch or another FPS game will be able to more quickly understand and relate to what's happening on screen than an RTS game.
"That guy just got shot in the face with a fucking shotgun" is a pretty visceral reaction
paper crag
i feel like saying FPS is easier to follow because you see who kills who completely misses the point
one guy killing one guy has no meaning for a new viewer
no more meaning than one army killing the other
assuming they don't understand the ramifications of that kill
and the skills involved to pull it off
fading wasp
It still is more easily digestible. You know exactly what just happened when you see it.
paper crag
yeah that shallow moment
a guy got shot
that's all you get from it
if you know nothing about the game
it's easily digestible because that's all there is to digest for a new viewer
fading wasp
But that's the sole understanding of a new viewer, and someone's more likely to stick with it if they have at least that level of understanding what's going on.
paper crag
how is that any different from "this army just destroyed the other army"
in terms of ease of digestion?
at least RTS keeps consistent perspective so you're not confused about which team shot which team
i think it's very easy for a new viewer to be confused about who you're watching when the camera changes between players
fading wasp
If we're talking about Overwatch, you're able to see stuff like "he was behind that barrier, but she teleported past and got him from behind."
The thing is with Overwatch, the weapon is always shown in the hands. It makes the characters extremely identifiable.
slim summit
I watched a few minutes of some Paladins tournament on Twitch
had no fucking clue what was happening
and I've played Overwatch
there's no way laymen are understanding Overwatch without some investment
paper crag
it makes the characters identifiable, but it's easy to confuse which team you're watching, etc
paper crag
like i said, i watched esports before esports was called esports, and i was still confused when i started watching OW as my first FPS
pro FPS scene, that is
onyx shore
holyhell
solar trout
Tbh I was lost when I first saw overwatch being streamed in beta. I had no clue who was who and did what and where to look on the screen.
It took me like 2 days to memorize a hero or two.
I'd be just as clueless watching dota2.
If you have a history of watching games like LoL and dota it may not be so hard for you, but it actually seems more confusing to me than overwatch.
pearl stratus
My point more goes to viewability to an outside person.
pearl stratus
If I tried to get a regular person to sit and watch an RTS.
They'd just walk awayt.
Because even the action in an RTS isn't action.
paper crag
see that's where you're extending an anecdote to a general idea
solar trout
I came from TF2 so overwatch isn't much of a leap
paper crag
because the opposite happens in my case
pearl stratus
No, thats where my original point was and you're extending the anecdote to your personal experience.
Also, with all due respect, because you're from Korea the background is muddled.
Because it was already a huge thing there.
onyx shore
overwatch is my 1st fps game i play seriously,and honestly it's easy kinda easy to spectate
pearl stratus
For over 15 years.
paper crag
lol you mean my experience from when it was literally being born in the counttry
onyx shore
granted i'm from moba,so overwatch esport viewing isnt as hard as moba
paper crag
facing the greatest opposition it could ahve ever had
explaining it to a generation that literally never saw it before
onyx shore
i have a friend who just play overwatch for a month,he can watch OWL fine
that same friend already play dota2 for 6 months,and still can't understand what happened on pro matches
paper crag
and your point is that "FPS is more viewable to a new viewer," to which I replied "not really, because FPS is hard to follow for these reasons"
and you're using your experience to demonstrate why FPS was easier for people to follow as if it's a universal thing
pearl stratus
Your reasons, to me, broiled down to you say "I was watching e-sports before there were e-sports" which is inherently a useless argument because you're also a gamer.
paper crag
i'm also explaining that i was much more successfully explaining esports when showing RTS than FPS to complete outsiders
my main evidence isn't that "I'm a gamer and long time esports viewer and OW was still hard to follow"
solar trout
maybe you just know better how to explain RTS because of your history with them :|
pearl stratus
Well no, the explaining of the game itself isn't the point Heumann.
paper crag
that's a supporting argument for "FPS isn't as easy to follow as you think it is for new viewers"
pearl stratus
If you have to explain it you've already failed.
We're talking about the validity of the base game to attract a new viewer.
slim summit
the demarcation isn't only in FPS or not
Counter Strike is probably easier to follow than a MOBA
for total laymen
fading wasp
With FPS, people already have a more baseline understanding because of its superficial similarity to real life, compared to an RTS.
paper crag
if there was an effective way to show the maps and player locations for FPS
slim summit
the problem with Overwatch in particular is that every 90 seconds there are 27 different heroes that can just tap Q and change the outcome of the match in 27 totally different ways that sometimes happen very fast or aren't visually distinct
paper crag
i would definitely agree that it's a good genre to show to newcomers
fading wasp
Like minimaps, as many FPS games have?
paper crag
but the fact that you change perspectives so often without any way to follow who you're viewing throws off new viewers
yeah
pearl stratus
That's more the marketability of the announcer. Which I think OW did a decent job in reviewing now, though they could breakdown more in mid-fight but then you miss action.
paper crag
i personally would appreciate if there was a channel dedicated to the aerial view that we occasionally see
pearl stratus
But when Uber and Mr. X do the infograph over the screen with positioning that does exactly what you're asking.
pearl stratus
That's football.
paper crag
and such analyst panels exist in other esports
slim summit
we only get the top down details like two times per series and it's for exactly one play
pearl stratus
Literally its just John Madden.
slim summit
it doesn't really help in understanding the other 95% of the game
pearl stratus
Which everyone recognizes whether they watch football or not.
paper crag
i thought your argument was "if you have to explain, you've failed"
civic marsh
not sure whether dallas fuel is a hyperlul or a monkaGIGA
pearl stratus
I mean if you want to completely isolate commentary out of it, I suppose.
We can do that.
paper crag
the analyst panels explaining good plays is just production
it's OWL, not OW
and i agree that OWL is doing a great job
pearl stratus
At which point the RTS loses even more validity because the micromanagement game and resource panning will become a consumer failure for viewership.
solar trout
Oh...so this is the WOOOO guy...https://clips.twitch.tv/HorribleDifficultMelonPhilosoraptor
pearl stratus
It's like trying to have the laning phase in LoL not be watching paint dry.
paper crag
see focusing on micromanagement isn't the flashy part of a new viewer experience
pearl stratus
It's not, but its still how the player action goes.
A new viewer would see the multiple set ups of groups and just stare blankly.
paper crag
the more immediately visible aspect is watching a battle between two armies and seeing that one won
civic marsh
what's the discussion? whether overwatch is friendly to layman viewers?
pearl stratus
But the battle, unless running a rush strat, doesn't exist till how deep in?
You've lost your laymen viewer by then.
I have 438 channels.
I'm not watching the one with resource farming.
onyx shore
imo,the hardest time of watching overwatch pro matches were the days of triple tank meta
everyone ran the same comp
pearl stratus
The action in a RTS is finite and the end result of a lot of preparation.
onyx shore
with the same fucking skins
civic marsh
overwatch is one of the least layman viewer friendly fps games ever
paper crag
which is why SC2 kept speeding up the economy to reduce the resource phase
onyx shore
even apex's days wasnt even better
pearl stratus
Yeah but its still not enough. Think about the average attention span you need to capture someone.
I like OW, and OWL.
paper crag
FPS might have action right off the bat, but i wouldn't follow something where people are shooting at people and i don't know what's going on
pearl stratus
But there's some stall points where I just turn my browser into the background and watch Hulu.
paper crag
because my perspective keeps changing
civic marsh
someone will tune into overwatch, be overwhelmed by all the shit that's happening on the screen, and get turned off
fading wasp
@civic marsh FPS games in general
civic marsh
i mean
paper crag
and i have no idea who's shooting who from where because i don't know what the map looks like, i don't know who's on whose team, and i don't know why that was even a good play
fading wasp
Vs. RTS games in general
paper crag
and the whole "i don't know what's going on" is amplified by the abilities in the game
and RTS could delay the action for a few minutes, but you at least get to track which army grows faster on the map and coherently follow the outcomes of battles
pearl stratus
It's rarely a few minutes.
paper crag
it really is few minutes at this point in SC2 imo
pearl stratus
You're hoping on watching an army grow will keep someones attention, who doesn't play video games, for 5-10 minutes.
That's a losing battle.
civic marsh
sounds boring as shit for me
fading wasp
And, I know it's sorta cheap because it's not an in-depth game, CoD is a pretty damn easy game to follow for even a first time viewer. As is CS:GO. Even something like R6 would be.
pearl stratus
CSGO is, R6 wouldn't be - its pacing is off.
CSGO, however, would need to change its general perspective from terrorist/counter terrorist before it went to a global broader audience.
paper crag
idk though. is it actually following though, if all you're looking for is "a guy killed another guy?"
pearl stratus
Which they wouldn't do.
civic marsh
and then you have the battle royale subset such as pubg and fortnite which are also easy to watch
pearl stratus
I'm not necessarily looking for a new viewer to follow it off the bat. Just be entertained enough they may keep watching it. That's all they can really do right now.
And I believe due to the forward action nature of gameset of FPS it has a better chance.
paper crag
see i think that's where there was a misunderstanding between us
fps is definitely more exciting right off the bat
civic marsh
imo fps can generate more hype moments that might hook someone or interest them enough to want to know more
paper crag
that's why you're saying it's better suited for new viewers
pearl stratus
Yeah I'm speaking theoreticals just on the ability to grow the product by attracting an uneducated audience.
paper crag
what i'm saying is rts is easier to coherently grasp the actual game
civic marsh
i think the production quality of OWL helps with that notion of trying to hook a partially interested neutral too
pearl stratus
Ah yeah. I don't need that part of it.
That part can all come later.
It's like showing someone a highlight reel of football.
They don't know why the plays are good, just that they are.
civic marsh
i think the casters can have a big impact on whether someone who's half interested stays or goes too
paper crag
casters definitely have an impact
pearl stratus
Well yeah, thats definitely true.
OWL you'd ideally have Uber and Mr. X for everything.
paper crag
i'd say 70% of esport's success in korea was in the storytelling by the casters
civic marsh
absolutely
paper crag
hyping up rivalries
pearl stratus
Uber is the hype man. He gets crazy excited and just explodes with hyped up word vomit.
civic marsh
if semmler can just add some terms to his dictionary then the casting lineup would be solid overall
paper crag
making things easier to understand for new viewers
pearl stratus
Then Mr. X comes in and calmly explains what just happened.
pearl stratus
They also have the best duo in terms of utilizing the spectator options too.
Overhead map, etc.
paper crag
there's something that I think valve did really well with The International
which is the noob cast
they have a dedicated caster channel for newcomers, explaining what a hero does, why it's a good pick/play etc
i feel like other games could benefit from something like that
pearl stratus
But if you pay attention to the OWL analysts, you'll notice they're getting coached on their lexicon.
civic marsh
that's a pretty great idea and sounds perfect for overwatch
pearl stratus
They don't say the word "comms" anymore, really.
They're starting to flush out a lot of their slang.
civic marsh
trying to make it more of a sport rather than esport
solar trout
monkeymonkeymonkeymonkeymonkeymonkeymonkey
paper crag
something that bothers me so much is their overuse of "will" and "find"
pearl stratus
Yeah they're all picking up better comm segments to show people.
civic marsh
even though everyone knows what comms means
pearl stratus
So the will and find I think is on purpose, as weird as it sounds.
paper crag
it definitely is on purpose
pearl stratus
Find especially.
paper crag
it sounds catchy and professional
paper crag
but it's just overused
pearl stratus
Etc.
pearl stratus
Yeah they're doing a loop back to football caster vernacular.
pearl stratus
Brady will find Amendola open at the 20.
paper crag
it'd be fine if it wasn't so overused
civic marsh
blizzard are really going hard to get OWL into the mainstream
pearl stratus
Honestly I think its why they let Jake get so hyped up.
For all his issues.
He's a pretty face.
And that never hurts.
civic marsh
he's the closest thing to an OWL poster boy
pearl stratus
Yeah who are you going to pick for an american audience? Logixx?
molten skiff
soon is obviously the best poster boi
pearl stratus
I personally think Custa would be a better choice.
paper crag
but logixx is probably more relatable
pearl stratus
Not American.
paper crag
lol
molten skiff
hey man
pearl stratus
If they're looking for the US market first, you're picking an american to start.
molten skiff
the face of La Liga is ronaldo
pearl stratus
Custa is a Kangaroo though
civic marsh
face of la liga is messi tho
molten skiff
who aint even from spanish-speaking country
pearl stratus
Already established, versus unestablished.
civic marsh
i hate barca but it's true lul
civic marsh
ye true enough
pearl stratus
Houston, from a US audience perspective, is like the perfect team to hype up even though they're playing like crap right now.
paper crag
but you don't need to advertise soccer
messi just is a face of soccer, not because soccer needs one but wants one
growing esports need poster boys
girls
w/e
civic marsh
it's a shame flame is such a twat, or i'd like houston a lot more
paper crag
at least that's how korean esports grew
pearl stratus
Flame is an idiot, but most GM's are its turning out.
paper crag
Slayers_Boxer, a pretty boy who was destroying everyone
civic marsh
i can't wait for geguri to tear up OWL, i imagine that's going to have a positive impact
molten skiff
even my mom knew boxer
pearl stratus
Look at SBB. Imagine how popular he must be in Korea.
paper crag
using a race considered as trash back then and turning it into OP
molten skiff
the thing with boxer tho
pearl stratus
he must have fan clubs out the ass.
paper crag
i feel like SBB isn't AS popular in korea though
civic marsh
sbb is so funny and pure that even westerners love him now
paper crag
i mean he is
molten skiff
he was actively going out of his way as an esports ambassador
slim summit
the best news for Greguri is
paper crag
but not as much avid fanboys as he has in twitch or reddit
slim summit
she's on the worst team who is also picking up 2 other better players
civic marsh
dragons will be better than fuel after the new players arrive
slim summit
she doesn't have to be very good and they'll be able to take on Fuel, Shock, etc
civic marsh
she can also go to other teams in the future if dragons remain complete shite
slim summit
well
civic marsh
if she's good enough
molten skiff
no matter how bad she is
slim summit
we would have girls playing
molten skiff
she cant be worse than MG
slim summit
🤷
pearl stratus
Also I full expect Twitch Chat to Ming Li every time she's on screen, even though its not correct.
paper crag
yeah geguri def gonna get gender baited
pearl stratus
Because Twitch Chat is where you go to get funding for abortion clinics.
paper crag
like "see? OWL needs more girls!"
molten skiff
is there any other female player who's at OWL level?
civic marsh
the sjw's / feminists just need to realise that geguri is in owl because she's good enough, not because she's a girl
paper crag
no, geguri is in OWL because she's a great off tank
pearl stratus
There's probably quite a few
molten skiff
@civic marsh that's exactly what they want....
molten skiff
it's the other side of the fence that needs to know that she's good enough and not in there because sjws want woman in the league
civic marsh
they want more female representation in OWL ignoring the fact that there just aren't many OWL tier female players
slim summit
as it turns out, if you aren't actively seeking outrage on twitter it's as if it doesn't exist at all
paper crag
lol
molten skiff
and my facebook is very closed to real life friends
pearl stratus
I live in a relatively high population urban area.
slim summit
Overwatch invaded by SJWs, people hate men now!
paper crag
i just hope OWL doesn't do segments that focus so hard on the fact that geguri is female
pearl stratus
And I've heard some really stupid shit from people.
pearl stratus
Including a woman who said she didn't want honey to replace her other sugar source, because she didn't believe in bee slavery.
Not even making it up.
Called it bee slavery.
molten skiff
@paper crag i think it's inevitable tho
civic marsh
...
paper crag
s t r o n g a n o n y m o u s s o u r c e s
oh yeah bee slavery
that exists lol
isn't that why vegans don't eat honey
slim summit
won't someone speak for the bees?
paper crag
some of them, at least
pearl stratus
But yeah, there's just a few female players at the OWL that I can think of.
molten skiff
they actually made a new format
civic marsh
if they frame it in a way that's portraying her as a role model for younger girls interested in OWL, I feel like that wouldn't be too bad
onyx shore
as for female players
civic marsh
but they could easily overdo it
onyx shore
it's kinda tricky
pearl stratus
Plus, and this is a realistic factor, adding a girl to a team adds additional costs, etc.
molten skiff
where you can basically add a tab
onyx shore
either you want them bcos of their ability
slim summit
stop worrying about they
molten skiff
and the honey comes out
onyx shore
which is rare
pearl stratus
Which people don't want always think about.
onyx shore
or
molten skiff
without destroying the beehive
onyx shore
you make another team siren
slim summit
they are just some random bloggers that nobody ordinarily would give a fuck about
paper crag
i mean, don't get me wrong. the current esports scene IS probably much harder for women to get into as players
molten skiff
cuz the beehive itself is already made by 3d printer
onyx shore
well
paper crag
because they'd need extra accommodation for team housing etc
slim summit
they aren't some divine windsock for reality
molten skiff
so it's a win-win situation
onyx shore
the starting point isn't the same
pearl stratus
I think it'll change as time goes on, but right now with the housing etc. etc.
pearl stratus
Like do you just shove the girl into the house as well? Do you make sure there's a separate bathroom, etc?
slim summit
lol
pearl stratus
Do you always play her when she's got her blood rage?
onyx shore
in my experience,most of them starts when they are already teenangers
slim summit
doesn't SHD have apartments?
paper crag
so when geguri was on a korean team, what they used to do was that she had her own pc at the team house
brisk roost
Lmao what
pearl stratus
Some teams have apartments, some have a shared house.
paper crag
but she went home
slim summit
i don't think bathrooms are gonna be the problem
molten skiff
yeah
civic marsh
the ratio is probably quite one sided yeah
molten skiff
you dont want your girl living in the same house with undead
you know what im saying
pearl stratus
Undead fell into the trap of sticking your dick in crazy.
paper crag
if one day esports becomes 50:50 in gender, buying an extra apartment to separate by gender won't feel like an extra cost
onyx shore
he probably gonna reanimate those dead fetus into his own minion
paper crag
but for one person, it's def going to feel that way
onyx shore
and then form his own team
pearl stratus
Honestly I'm 50/50 on whether or not I believe that part.
paper crag
and that's something that'll keep a lot of deserving girl gamers from entering esports
pearl stratus
Because who the hell just throws that out nonchalant as shit on social media.
molten skiff
aye
torpid charm
today was lit for OWL
pearl stratus
Yeah but its her saying it about another girl.
paper crag
so what exactly are the supporting claims for the whole undead thing?
torpid charm
y'all talking about Undad?
pearl stratus
Just word of mouth that he cheated on girls.
onyx shore
do you mean proof?
paper crag
just that there are girls saying they were in relationships?
pearl stratus
The girl who wrote it was batshit fucking crazy too.
onyx shore
only accusation
pearl stratus
Stalker level crazy.
paper crag
so there's an alleged child but we don't know if it's undead's kid
onyx shore
nah,i just said that it's just accusation
pearl stratus
The only proof is that the girl is going to stab and kill someone one day. Cause that bitch cray cray.
paper crag
lol
civic marsh
owl has more drama than most sports from what i've seen 
pearl stratus
"We broke up. And then he dated this other girl. SO I TOLD HIS TEAMMATE AND HER EX BOYFRIEND I LOVED THEM AND WANTED TO BE WITH THEM."
.... wat?
onyx shore
OWL drama wouldnt even be a thing if it happened in other esport
brisk roost
I wouldn't really say that
pearl stratus
OWL drama is tame as shit.
onyx shore
calling other people retarded on dota2 pro scene wont be a big drama
brisk roost
Only big drama they had was releasing xQc
pearl stratus
Remember the Patriot player who FUCKING KILLED SOMEONE.
Then hung himself in his cell?
civic marsh
lmao wtf
paper crag
lol dota scene is more like order in all things chaotic
molten skiff
sounds like patriots
pearl stratus
Or when Ray Rice beat the shit out of his girlfriend in an elevator.
Or when Michael Vick got convicted of owning dog fighting rings.
OWL drama is crazy tame.
onyx shore
thi is why i call this pussywatch
paper crag
OWL just needs bigger money
pearl stratus
I call it want to be successfulwatch.
civic marsh
i was more thinking of pure volume of drama but i see your point
slim summit
well when you got 100 years of a sport with vastly more money
molten skiff
what's next
slim summit
statistically
paper crag
bigger money will bring bigger crazies
slim summit
there will be bigger scandals
molten skiff
xqc coming out saying "this aint my glove"
pearl stratus
Because the NBA already proved if you control your players and project a more wholesome image you get more viewers.
slim summit
man this fucking
pearl stratus
No one cares about the 16 year old kid at home who likes to say retard on the internet.
onyx shore
is it deliberately or not?
slim summit
the rumor is that the guy straight up assaulted opponent players during a match
molten skiff
what did dpei do
onyx shore
he bumped into muma and who?
onyx shore
well
pearl stratus
You all joke, but you're forgetting this literally was a thing that happened in LoL.
onyx shore
well
pearl stratus
And they had to review tapes from a god damn tournament.
civic marsh
xqc leaked some pretty strong implications
onyx shore
if we have video of that incident
pearl stratus
Because someone said they got pushed.
onyx shore
it could be big though
civic marsh
he said he "punished" his own players
onyx shore
but gladiators already issue an apology
paper crag
what happened in LOL?
slim summit
well within the purview of normal coach behavior
pearl stratus
Apparently someone pushed another player.
onyx shore
so,i dont think it will get bigger
pearl stratus
So they wanted Riot to stop and suspend them.
onyx shore
not on stage,right?
pearl stratus
It was fucking dumb as shit.
onyx shore
the bumping incident
pearl stratus
And probably why Dpei issued an apology ahead of time.
paper crag
lol
onyx shore
nah
slim summit
people are only being retarded if you take it at face value
onyx shore
i prefer kyky twitter drama
pearl stratus
Side tangent.
slim summit
but when you consider the possibility that he isn't telling the truth
onyx shore
molten skiff
what did kyky do
slim summit
people should probably be concerned about that shit
molten skiff
what madness has he brought this time
pearl stratus
Kyky basically told twitter to fuck off.
onyx shore
@molten skiff https://www.reddit.com/r/OverwatchTMZ/comments/851ua7/kyky_loses_it_and_starts_arguing_with_df_fans_on/
pearl stratus
And then kept arguing.
onyx shore
like
molten skiff
man
onyx shore
seriously
molten skiff
imagine that shit happening with other sports
imagine arsene wenger going nut on twitter
onyx shore
if he's winning titles and champs like jose mourinho,people will accept his trashtalk
but looking at DF's performance....
torpid charm
Kyky is wild ashell
onyx shore
yeah....
pearl stratus
Which means that's probably a good reason he won't just say things.
paper crag
lol isn't wenger like the least likely to lose his shit on twitter
quiet shell
Kyky is running DF down to the ground lol
pearl stratus
Like what if the answer is "Hastr0 fucked this team and the investors have too much control."
He can't say that.
civic marsh
wenger is a serial bottle kicker. that man has a temper
onyx shore
i wonder what is xqc's relationship with kyky behind the scene
paper crag
yeah but he's also pretty opposed to players using twitter
molten skiff
i thought that was furgerson
onyx shore
Replying to @bleak drift
Are you actually allergic to taking responsibility for your actions? Can’t be a leader of a team if you’re constantly looking for pity on twitter. your job is results based if you can’t handle that don’t be a coach, or atleast don’t air it out to your whole fanbase
onyx shore
quiet shell
there isnt much relationship XQC was banned for 80% of the season @formal vaporediaz#5606
onyx shore
looking for pitty on twiter
civic marsh
how retarded would hastro have to be to actually be demanding investor and his input be factored into squad selection and tactics
pearl stratus
I mean.
He recruited AKM and forced him into roster.
Without his coaches want.
So.
Very retarded is probably about where Hastr0 sits.
paper crag
is that official though?
onyx shore
owner intervention is normal thing
pearl stratus
Yes.
pearl stratus
Owner intervention is, and it usually results in the type of garbage we've seen out of fuel.
Owners/GM's try to get too involved.
paper crag
idk what i'm more surprised by. the fact that such info was leaked or that the team owner kept insisting on a strat that wasn't working despite coaches' advice
pearl stratus
And fuck up everything.
onyx shore
but too much intervention,and the owner shou;d've just be the coach also
slim summit
my favorite thing about OWL
is that no matter how many matches Boston loses
HuK will still be a better coach than Fuel's leadership
civic marsh
i don't know which is juicier. hastro/investors sabotaging fuel or kyky being incompetent as fuck and pushing blame everywhere but himself
paper crag
lol
onyx shore
there's this reply on that twitter convo
pearl stratus
Well it helps that Boston is also funded by someone who literally doesn't care, and lets his coaching staff do what they need to do.
Like Robert Kraft wipes his ass with the entrance fee to OWL.
molten skiff
boston just needs to check gamsu's health 24/7
onyx shore
where a guy shows how fusion management replies on why they pick eqo over sdb
pearl stratus
Yeah which I get.
paper crag
maybe the sabotage of fuel is a metacommentary of how fossil fuel is a thing of the past in overwatch universe
civic marsh
people appreciate transparency
pearl stratus
But my point is that Kyky can't just go "Hastr0 told us we have to play AKM."
paper crag
so the fuel must decline
pearl stratus
Like yeah, he's probably getting fired either way.
civic marsh
yeah you can't sell out the guy whos paying your salary
pearl stratus
But you say that about your boss?
you're DEFINITELY getting fired.
And Probably > Definitely.
molten skiff
is flame outlaws coach?
pearl stratus
GM.
molten skiff
or GM
onyx shore
isnt it tairong?
brisk roost
GM
molten skiff
ok
paper crag
the difference is that keeping your mouth shut can keep a door open for another team
slim summit
there's a bit of grey area about what is worse for your career
brisk roost
Tairong is the coach
molten skiff
yeah
slim summit
losing a dozen matches because of the owner
molten skiff
it hoguth tairong was the coach
slim summit
or being insubordinate to an owner that definitely has friends
paper crag
if you badmouth your owner, you prob won't get another job in the field lol
brisk roost
True lol
slim summit
nobody will hire a coach that the internet memes as terrible
(regardless of whether or not he is terrible)
paper crag
if the internet has spoken, then it is the truth
pearl stratus
I really honestly doubt much of Dallas' shit is on Kyky.
paper crag
whether or not it is the truth
pearl stratus
I think its 8 kids who are really frustrated not having fun, and not being in sync anymore.
And no one being able to fix it.
onyx shore
well,it's team effort
civic marsh
some of the lineups they've posted have been ludicrous
slim summit
^
civic marsh
that is someones fault
pearl stratus
Most of those involve AKM though.
onyx shore
but i think coach have a big impact
slim summit
there are definitely a lot of problems with this team
pearl stratus
And trying to play around his Shitdier.
slim summit
even beyond the xqc-main-tank shit
molten skiff
@slim summit "nobody will hire a coach that the internet memes as terrible"
pearl stratus
So if you're told you have to play someone, you try and figure out a way around it.
onyx shore
*except wenger
slim summit
lol
pearl stratus
Every time I see the fucked up Dallas comps I just notice that AKM is still there.
onyx shore
i forgot the exception,sorry
slim summit
i just mean, generally speaking
onyx shore
but maybe
slim summit
how the internet views your capability is probably as or more important than your actual capability
onyx shore
the team didnt adapt enough
civic marsh
the rumour that hastro gave akm a minimum playtime clause in his contract seems more and more likely
pearl stratus
Cocco not being fielded I even get, he's not an aggressive tank.
onyx shore
so yeah it could happen
pearl stratus
And passive teams just lose.
So you have a shitty Taimou, who at least plays aggressive. But is bad.
whole mulch
Btw random question but
onyx shore
like natus vincere,they were gods of the beginning day of dota2,now they are like tier-3
slim summit
Taimou
whole mulch
who manages the teams' twitter accounts during the game
slim summit
poor guy
whole mulch
is it one of the players or do they hire someone to do that
paper crag
prob a dedicated person
pearl stratus
Probably low level peon #4.
civic marsh
most of the teams have social media staff
onyx shore
probably socmed guy
whole mulch
ah
slim summit
yeah social media staff
meme specialists
turns out everyone on Fuel is a meme specialist
civic marsh
lul
onyx shore
how much you get paid for that job anyway
paper crag
yeah i feel like "the twitter guy" is a pretty popular position on many esports teams these days
slim summit
probably not much
onyx shore
yikes
slim summit
yeah, that's around what media guys have made at most of the companies i've worked for
onyx shore
well,it's a cozy job
slim summit
except a marketing agency where they made quite a bit more
onyx shore
you can do other things while doing it
slim summit
i imagine esports is at the low low end of the spectrum
pearl stratus
If you're crazy good at it, like the Wendy's girl.
slim summit
unless you're Fusion
pearl stratus
You probably get offered a lot more.
slim summit
Fusion seems to have $$$$ to blow
pearl stratus
Also depends on the social media presence for your company, etc.
paper crag
i feel like it won't be as cushy as people think it is though
like you only see them on the media channels you use
but they're also on ones you don't use
pearl stratus
They also have to be checking that stuff.
onyx shore
i think the teams that owned by NFL owners are the richest
paper crag
yeah
paper crag
who owns NY?
onyx shore
not glads?
paper crag
isn't it like mets or something
pearl stratus
Robert Kraft is worth 6.2 billion, dude.
paper crag
who owns glads?
onyx shore
nah
whole mulch
Shanghai might be richest
onyx shore
kroenke is richer than kraft
paper crag
i literally only know that boston-kraft, dallas-envyus
shanghai may be the richest, pretty possible
onyx shore
LA Glads should try doing a tour in london
whole mulch
Owner of shanghai is 3x richer than kroenke
paper crag
chinese money is pretty insane
civic marsh
kroenke owns arsenal right
molten skiff
oh shit
kroenke owns arsenal
right
it makes sense now
dpei
wenger
it makes sense
civic marsh
onyx shore
onyx shore
LA glads probably will finish 4th place
molten skiff
he also owns la lambs
whole mulch
I actually think shanghai is the richest team
their owner's net worth is 20 billion USD
paper crag
i think shanghai is up there too
onyx shore
is that netease's worth or the owner's worth?
whole mulch
compared to kroenke's 8 billion
paper crag
solely because chinese riches are pretty crazy
whole mulch
owner's worth
slim summit
money can't buy talent i guess
pearl stratus
I mean it can, it just can't buy trust in coaches.
slim summit
especially if you intentionally hire bad players
pearl stratus
If they had any other coach than Van
paper crag
well in this case, money didn't buy talent rather than can't
pearl stratus
Shanghai would have been a very different team.
pearl stratus
I mean the GM and stuff should have checked the roster too.
But he brought on most of the garbage players from his old NRG team.
onyx shore
well
whole mulch
Should have had shanghai's spot
paper crag
the ownership prob don't know much about the actual players or something
whole mulch
Yeah they don't
paper crag
and entrusted the coach to just do his job
onyx shore
with their money
they can bring 6 best korean players
but i dont think they will
bcos of pride
paper crag
i'm sure they technically could have bought nyxl roster
as in being able to afford it
whole mulch
They could have
pearl stratus
I mean besides the the drama.
paper crag
not that they would have gone lol
onyx shore
but won't
pearl stratus
Undead and Diya are good enough DPS for OWL.
And there are enough Chinese players that you could pick up.
So I think they'll maintain the split nationality roster.
paper crag
i'd like to see SHD split up and distributed to other teams and see how they do
pearl stratus
Most of them would never leave the bench
onyx shore
http://liquipedia.net/overwatch/Ye_Qianqian --> pick this player
onyx shore
you can sign her first
pearl stratus
Can't have pregnant support.
onyx shore
put hannibal lecter chain on undead
pearl stratus
Geguri looks like she could break Undead if she wanted.
paper crag
honestly i'm pretty worried about how twitch chat will react to geguri's appearance
pearl stratus
Ming Li.
onyx shore
well
pearl stratus
Already said it.
onyx shore
not twitch
paper crag
like "omg why no pretty tiny azn gurl" "lul fat"
quiet shell
As twitch chat reacts @paper crag
onyx shore
i kinda curious
quiet shell
Like retards xD
onyx shore
about "game journalist" reaction
paper crag
I also think we might see some HeyGuys
indigo barn
i wouldn't mind some girls generation-lookin chicks in owl
onyx shore
if geguri turns out playing like crazy = stop patronizing geguri
supple prism
i dont understand the point in twitch chat
pearl stratus
There isn't one.
onyx shore
if geguri plays like shit = overwatch league viewers are sexists
pearl stratus
If you have 3 brain cells to knock together you just close twitch chat.
paper crag
i honestly feel like geguri gets underrated as a player because her gender gets so overblown as a topic
pearl stratus
Her whole botting thing still follows her too.
paper crag
focus on her skills, which deserves a lot of focus in its own right
pearl stratus
No matter what happens.
onyx shore
she certainly can't solo carry the team into mid table
paper crag
what do you mean by botting, the hack accusation?
onyx shore
blizzard will probably use her gender as marketing tools though
pearl stratus
Yeah, accusations stay whether they're true or not.
onyx shore
"first female overwatch league player!!!"
paper crag
eh i think it's pretty much resolved at this point though
indigo barn
oh look we have a FEMALE player, WATCH us now or die
onyx shore
those cheating accusations are made without knowing her gender though
paper crag
there are groups that still accuse her of it, but if anything it was good PR for her
pearl stratus
Hell, people still talk about god damn deflategate and that even got scientists involved to shut up the REEEEEE.
indigo barn
u watch esports for the gameplay not because of the sex of the player smh
whole mulch
Anyone else feel like Geguri might not be a big help to shanghai?
paper crag
because she proved that she wasn't cheating but she was so good that people thought she was
pearl stratus
On her own, she won't be.
onyx shore
yeah
indigo barn
i think geguri will help, a little bit
onyx shore
but shd signs 3 koreans
whole mulch
Looking at her tournament performances she doesn't look like she's too good of a player
onyx shore
well
molten skiff
i still say pats shouldnt have been in sb49
indigo barn
learns to speak chinese overnight
onyx shore
her dva is probably a big upgrade from MG
paper crag
so right now, does SHD have a DPS in US
indigo barn
MG's dva is so beautiful
paper crag
diya and undead are both gone
indigo barn
it makes me wet
molten skiff
with tears
paper crag
is ado coming to an empty house lol
indigo barn
yes
pearl stratus
She's also never been on a great team Dallas.
pearl stratus
Off-tank doesn't shine when its playing Garbageman.
paper crag
probably
onyx shore
it will be SHD 1st match on stage 3
pearl stratus
3 New Koreans and a Chinese, don't forget Sky.
They'll finally have a solid support.
That's huge too.
paper crag
unless fuel somehow goes through some epiphany
onyx shore
imagine the meme when shd beat fuel
paper crag
but i feel like this week's SHD definitely stands a good chance against this week's fuel
onyx shore
and then kyky defending himself on twitter
paper crag
shd just played fuel at a bad time
indigo barn
shanghai will get their first win vs a korean roster team
onyx shore
this week?
pearl stratus
Fuel just needs to go on one of those corporate team building retreats.
paper crag
TRUST FALLS TRUST FALLS TRUST FALLS
indigo barn
dallas and shanghai are just kinda there right now
paper crag
xepher
onyx shore
xepher
weak oyster
Heyyyy
whole mulch
Hi
molten skiff
shangahi always seem to be performing above their talent when going against seoul
onyx shore
but xepher made that accusation without knowing geguri's gender
pearl stratus
I mean if you watch the movements.
molten skiff
aye
indigo barn
shanghai was lookin pretty damn good vs seoul
paper crag
i hope they do lol
molten skiff
that's how much i hate the fuck
whole mulch
She's the highest sens pro player I know
pearl stratus
I mean I don';t think Geguri will ever NOT be run.
molten skiff
i will take the 0-4 loss
pearl stratus
Your other option is Mg.
molten skiff
if geguri gets to fucking kill xepher
paper crag
idk though
onyx shore
xepher played when seoul face shd
indigo barn
mg is the best dva
paper crag
nationalism can be a pretty big force for the chinese
onyx shore
dynasty fielded their B team
pearl stratus
Winning is a bigger one.
paper crag
"we've had good games with geguri for sure, but stiilllll can we tryyyyy MG?"
pearl stratus
I feel like they'd rather win with half chinese.
onyx shore
weeked,bunny,kuki,gido,xepher
onyx shore
at this point i wonder why the chinese government hasnt interfered yet
whole mulch
China isn't super great at OW
paper crag
i also feel like they'd rather take 1 win with all chinese squad
whole mulch
they have some stars
paper crag
than a couple with mixed
pearl stratus
China is sad because China is bad.
whole mulch
I mean
paper crag
not saying it'll definitely happen, but it's a possibility
pearl stratus
They'd call it Houston Outlaws?
molten skiff
idk
onyx shore
can you use USA name as your owl team name though?
molten skiff
US national team in WC was pretty scary
pearl stratus
With special friend Linkzr.
paper crag
i feel like US is much less prone to wanting a "pure nationality" team than China
onyx shore
which WC?
molten skiff
add muma instead of fctfct
paper crag
not because US isn't nastionalistic
onyx shore
2016 or 2017?
molten skiff
17
paper crag
but because China is just crazy about it
onyx shore
2017 usa is great
molten skiff
and someone other than adam
molten skiff
let seagull coach it
onyx shore
even seagull
paper crag
i want to see zunba vs geguri
onyx shore
that's why people shat on 2016 world cup squad
strong parrotBOT
Overwatch League - Season 1 - Stage 2
molten skiff
zunba vs geguri on a zarya map
indigo barn
or some profit vs geguri after his performance today
onyx shore
half of their team didnt have the decency to practice
paper crag
i feel like zunba has the edge on game sense though
molten skiff
iirc, zuba picked zarya because he was inspired by geguri
whole mulch
USA's 2016 team wasn't even good enough for it
onyx shore
they are representing their country ffs
whole mulch
they picked streamers
balmy wolf
Dallas Dragons LUL
paper crag
like, a lot of zaryas on OWL make me go "damn, that was a nice grav"
onyx shore
at least have the decency to practice
paper crag
but only zunba makes me go "wtf zunba?"
balmy wolf
Shanghai Trashcans LUL
molten skiff
zunba
onyx shore
"lets play diablo instead"
paper crag
lol true