Orisa is less than a year old.
#lore-discussion
limpid agate
wicked widget
You also have to realize that being 1 year old for McCree is different than being 1 year old for a human.
what do u mean by that?
limpid agate
I meant Omnic not McCree
swift mason
ahh
limpid agate
Not really, but if that makes it easier for you sure.
wicked widget
Isn't Genji sort of an omnic...
wicked widget
alright
On the overwatch wiki it says:
"Experience tranquility. (self and friendly)
Pass into the Iris. (hostile)" as his transendence voice lines
what do you think it means by "hostile" and "self and friendly"?
limpid agate
When you're playing in game.
peak escarp
it's for what team they're on
limpid agate
When Zenyatta is on the other team, he says Pass into the Iris.
errant estuary
the enemy team hears hostile version and ur team hears the friendly version
limpid agate
When Zenyatta is on your team, or you are Zenyatta, he says Experience tranquility.
errant estuary
most heros so there version in their native language on the enemy team and u hear the english version
wicked widget
o okay thanks taiga that makes more sense.
limpid agate
The only heroes who don't have it in their native language are Pharah, Reinhardt, and Torbjorn. There MIGHT be one more, but I cant think of it.
opaque tundra
I don't think age really matters with ommics
young knoll
probably not much, but it is easy to see them similarly to humans
limpid agate
Of the omnic heroes, he is probably the one who has been around the longest.
Bastion is technically the oldest.
But Bastion was asleep for a decadeish
Then spent another in the forests
wicked widget
Of the omnic heroes, he is probably the one who has been around the longest.
u say he, who are u referring to
limpid agate
Bastion spent most of the past 30 years either in the wild or asleep.
He = Zenyatta.
Also the only omnic hero who is a he.
Orisa is a she.
Bastion is an it.
wicked widget
oh true true
young knoll
I thought bastion was sentient?
young knoll
ah
wicked widget
ive seen theories that the way bastion acts is feminine
lament prawn
ive seen theories that the way bastion acts is feminine
when females just, turn into a sentry turret
wicked widget
Yes i know ive seen theories that the way bastion acts is in a feminine way. not that bastion is a female, but it acts feminine
@lament prawn precisely
nah lol
wicked widget
I mean that bastion’s reactions to things are feminine-like
young knoll
which ones?
limpid agate
Bastion's reactions to things are child like
Because it has child like wonder
It doesnt know anything.
wicked widget
there are threads that are like “confirmed bastion is a girl” i will take a deeper look and tell u
limpid agate
Please don't.
It sounds like it will just amount to random sexism masked as speculation.
Bastion has no concept of gender.
peak escarp
most of those are based on foreign language dialogue with gendered verbs using the feminine form for Bastion
limpid agate
It is not male. It is not female. It is not sexually interested in any hero.
peak escarp
such as Ana's Arabic
limpid agate
Bastion is Bastion. And that's all there is to it.
surreal roost
chill
wicked widget
^
limpid agate
This is the lore discussion channel. Its bad enough we spent as much time as we did on this topic.
wicked widget
Thread states “ana refers to bastion as a female” i think that wss their point
surreal roost
where else would u discuss lore
peak escarp
“ana refers to bastion as a female”
that's inaccurate
Ana uses feminine verbs for Bastion
she doesn't call it a female
feminine verbs/nouns are often used for objects
limpid agate
There are many languages that fundamentally have gender rules.
surreal roost
he dont have pp so he not man
wicked widget
..
surreal roost
its that simple
limpid agate
!!shitposting @surreal roost
twilit nacelleBOT
@surreal roost Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
ionic summit
its pretty strict here
verbal glacier
so is echo mccrees robot girlfriend
hoary condor
no
frosty totem
no
not yet, at least
acoustic badge
who is tracer and where does she come from
worthy rose
Shes british
swift mason
She has her own origin video if you didn't know
valid terrace
She was a talented pilot tasked with testing a very experimental jet but lost her anchor to time
Winston created a device to re-anchor her and she can now control her own timeline
But it isn’t actual time travel
The origin video goes further in depth but that’s the important stuff
swift mason
A young pilot might i add
valid terrace
Well yeah
swift mason
She was 18 or something when the slipstream accident happend
valid terrace
!!loreshorts
twilit nacelleBOT
Animated Shorts:
Cinematic Trailer: http://bit.ly/1yhzaCC
Recall: http://bit.ly/1T1Aky8
Alive: http://bit.ly/1PSJV5x
Dragons: http://bit.ly/1WAZs3c
Hero: http://bit.ly/1ToCD1E
The Last Bastion: http://bit.ly/2b3TsNN
Infiltration: http://bit.ly/2emetBC
Rise and Shine: http://bit.ly/2xcMYoH
Honor and Glory: http://bit.ly/2A4FxRa
Shooting Star: https://bit.ly/2MCgtuP
Reunion: https://bit.ly/2AJhhHo
Zero Hour: https://bit.ly/2JGfNBP
Origin Trailers:
Tracer: http://bit.ly/2fDNQxI
Soldier 76: http://bit.ly/1FpWpDB
Ana: http://bit.ly/29zamjl
Sombra: http://bit.ly/2fMt3aJ
Orisa: http://bit.ly/2liKFy8
King's Row Uprising: http://bit.ly/2p2pukK
Doomfist: http://bit.ly/2tWoWzZ
Moira: http://bit.ly/2hF7GXZ
Brigitte: http://bit.ly/2GSto50
Hammond: https://bit.ly/2lKVlU9
Ashe: https://bit.ly/2F2SPor
Baptiste: https://bit.ly/2TeM1Kq
Sigma: https://bit.ly/2JJTVWE
Echo: https://bit.ly/2IYIwRq
Other Videos:
A Moment in Crime - Junkers: http://bit.ly/2fMsVYB
Are You With Us?: http://bit.ly/2fle4Uw
We Are Overwatch: http://bit.ly/1Pd9XmJ
The Plan: http://bit.ly/2uZiitC
Retribution: https://bit.ly/2EI9RCZ
Roadtrip: https://bit.ly/2RLk08M
Storm Rising: https://bit.ly/2VOkcXh
valid terrace
First Origin Trailer
swift mason
Speaking of animated shorts, do you think the devs will release more for the upcoming sequel? Like when overwatch's first release was getting close they played the first 4, now that OW2 is expected to release next may, they'd do the same thing?
swift mason
Its a prediction
When you take a look at the anouncement stuff for OW1, it went like this:
pliant sparrow
Probably one of the more accurate ones
grand wedge
Thing is, now we know OW. Back then we did not
So they put a lot of money ins animated shorts
swift mason
OW1: first announced 2014 blizzcon, Details for OW1 2015, release was May 2016
grand wedge
But making those is really expensive so I doubt that we’ll have a lot at launch like they did for ow1
swift mason
OW2: first announced 2019, most likely detalis this year blizzcon, then release next year
limber nebula
please I beg blizzard we NEED an overwatch cinematic universe
grand wedge
To me they’ll release OW2 for the 5th anniversary
swift mason
That's what im saying, next year
swift mason
Probably not that early because of virus stuff
swift mason
May is ideal
grand wedge
But no hero- no map.... it will be looooooong do the players
Maybe they’ll do more short stories/challenges
swift mason
Think about it, in a years time (if it does release in may) We'll be treating ourselves to OW2, and that will be amazing
grand wedge
To hook more players to buy OW2
dim scroll
I don't think the rumors of OW2 launching in 2020 are true. I think it makes the most sense to launch it on the 5th anniversary of OW. Plus they are still hiring Devs for OW2. If they were launching this year I don't think that they would be ramping up production on this level.
swift mason
yes
grand wedge
For now I’m waiting for Hero of Numbani - and then I really hope they’ll surprise us with some short stories or something
swift mason
But with the virus situation, we don't know if the devs are working on it at home, unless im blind and they are
dim scroll
I definitely think that we will get some shorts in the meantime.
At least one at blizzcon
swift mason
Hero of numbani will most likely be the only time where I enjoy a book
thats not assinged for projects
Plus once it's released, we can FINALLY TALK ABOUT NEW LORE
waaaaaaay overdue
worthy rose
ä
primal escarp
wasnt there something in the lore about how lucio stole the giant boots thingy that he wears?
peak escarp
he stole the gun he uses
it was technology invented by his father while his father was a Vishkar employee
iron plume
to take down their tyrannical rule in Rio's favelas
grand wedge
And also because his father was the one who created this technology. It was used by Vishkar to oppress his people.
peak escarp
I think so
limpid agate
It wasn't from Overwatch
It was from Playstation Brazil
And it was from January, months before the pandemic
Odds are it has been delayed to 2021.
We are already seeing impacts of the pandemic in Overwatch 1, such as Echo still not being localized in a few languages.
worn plinth
me too
limber nebula
there's overwatch books???
young knoll
there is going to be one for Orisa
swift mason
2nd june
upbeat anvil
What’s lore?
peak escarp
the body of knowledge, especially of a traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject
upbeat anvil
Oki thank you
ionic summit
theres gonna be comic for efi?
tame osprey
whats bamf
young knoll
it is an acronym written on McCree's belt buckle
ionic summit
bad at making friends
placid forum
Back at muthfuckin flumpys
wheat abyss
Hug
loud quartz
hug
valid terrace
!!LoreOnly @late berry
twilit nacelleBOT
@late berry This channel is for serious discussion strictly related to the lore of Overwatch. Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
late berry
ok sorry
lethal viper
how many watchpoint are existing in the world of overwatch?
We only know gibraltar and colorado, where soldier took his rifle, but is there more watchpoint existing?
peak escarp
lethal viper
thx
strange cargo
limpid oyster
Do I sound crazy to think mayhem will beat philly
lavish elm
not relevant
strange cargo
shut up its very relevant
peak escarp
!!loreonly
twilit nacelleBOT
This channel is for serious discussion strictly related to the lore of Overwatch. Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
trim ibex
Have we ever found out what happened to mccree's hand
trim ibex
I know that ashe references Bob ripping it off, but I dont think he really ripped it off in that sense
lament prawn
he didnt
trim ibex
Oh
peak escarp
I hope we get it in a short story or novel
trim ibex
We haven't had an animated short for a bit
peak escarp
text is better for internal thoughts and exposition
we had one last November, same as we always do
trim ibex
Oh ye that was the zero hour one
peak escarp
we typically get one in August at Gamescom and in November at Blizzcon, although last year they skipped Gamescom so they could have the OW2 demo ready
trim ibex
I wish they extended the team a bit so we could get more animated clips
peak escarp
I'm hoping they do what they did for the launch of Overwatch, and put out a bunch of shorts/comics in a row right before release
peak escarp
between March 21 and May 24 2016, we got 5 animated shorts and 6 comics
trim ibex
I'm guessing that we will get ow2 in exactly a year
peak escarp
that would make sense
trim ibex
They would prolly like to line it up
peak escarp
keep the anniversary the same
trim ibex
I hope they announce the release date at least at blizzcon
peak escarp
they probably will
there's a few industry events over the summer that Blizzard is participating in, we'll probably get some more details then
if not a release date, then maybe some more hero redesigns or map previews
trim ibex
I also hope that these events are not ruined by the virus
peak escarp
they're online events because of the virus
IGN is doing a virtual event in June, and there's the Summer Games Fest from now until August, ending with virtual Gamescom in August
pliant sparrow
It was probably going to come in 2021 anyway
peak escarp
yeah
peak escarp
it'll continue to be updated like OW1 is
peak escarp
how old do you think Echo is?
the teasers suggest she was built post-crisis
I would guess <20
and >9
being in that range, I can understand why Blizzard didn't put her age on her bio
lavish elm
I feel details about echos backstory were purposely left out for a reason
grand wedge
it could spoil some story they intend to tell at some point
peak escarp
yeah
trim ibex
I just heard a voice line between Baptist and mercy
They talked about working together
Isn't baptiste talon?
lime flax
he was but after he left he did humanitarian work around the world and apparently worked with mercy
potent rapids
Zen is genji master 😮
sly talon
@potent rapids we've been knowing that 😆
lament prawn
2016
peak escarp
peak escarp
putting the bios in the game somewhere would go a long way towards better lore literacy
worthy rose
I would like to pull up a bio by pressing a button or clicking something rather than just the little snippet they currently have. I dont see why they cant do that, you can press F1 already and pull up a description of abilities.
worthy rose
Yeah that'd work too.
silk vector
how did bastion join overwatch
peak escarp
Torbjorn rescued it
ionic summit
oh yeah
lime flax
in the story section of the overwatch 2 trailer we see him, Bastion, Reinhardt, and Brigitte fight against some null sector
i wouldnt say that confirms he joins new overwatch but i mean its pretty likely
lament prawn
i heard something during blizzcon about torb not answering and that we'll hear more about it in OW2
considering rein and brig are in new overwatch, there could be some interesting interactions during that mission
ionic summit
but i remember the demo streamers played of ow2
and they were evacuating from this factory or smth
and lucio looked like he ded bruh
i wanna see the second part to this
grand wedge
Yes : Torb refuses to answer the Recall. Bastion is currently with him in Gottenburg.
For the Rio cinematic at the end of the mission, that was a placeholder for the final cinematic. Lucio isn’t dead.
sour basin
ok question about omnic cousiousness or "thinking". so zen has the voice like "do i think? does a submarine swim?" and echo has a new one this event "a submarine cant swim". does this mean echo doesnt think omnics think? tho shes an ai herself? or is zen an dummy with a bad analogy?
young knoll
I think he is being philosophical in general
sour basin
well yeah. but echo doesnt agree?
young knoll
I think she is probably just pointing out that it is technically not swimming
sour basin
so shes being literal, or sarcastic?
sour basin
whats her relationship with zen or omnics, or do we even know yet
young knoll
I do not think we know
so I am presuming she is taking it literally rather than criticizing him for believing Omnics think
sour basin
submarines dont technally swim, but they do. he doesnt technically think, but he does? bruh
i cant think anymore lol
young knoll
what I mean is that he is, I think, attempting to get to the "spirit of the thing"
submarines are not alive, and thus, do not technically swim
however, they move through the water similarly
sour basin
ok ok thats kinda what i meant but in more detail lol
young knoll
it is probably meant to be more or a buddhist thing, like the question of "what is the sound of one hand clapping?"
sour basin
ive always loved that voiceline of zen, but echos new one made me confused
young knoll
I think Zen is not making an analogy, but rather positing a question similar to the one I mentioned
young knoll
probably, but it is hard to say with how little we know of her
peak escarp
it could be that Echo doesn't agree with the Shambali philosophy
sour basin
ah
peak escarp
she knows she's a robot and doesn't have a soul
or if could be like Grike said, she's just pointing out facts - a submarine can't swim, not by the technical definition of swimming
computers technically don't think, but how many times have you seen your computer or phone on a loading screen and said "it has to think"
I know I do
young knoll
that is interesting, as I look at people and think "wow, what fantastic computers they are"
sour basin
but thanks for this discussion. i love thinking about ai and consciousness and stuff.
young knoll
any time, I guess, as long as it is not too off of the lore
sour basin
no yeah, its alwasy different in situations. each movie discussing has its own rules, and games too.. so iwas asking about this universe
peak escarp
some people don't consider robots capable of thinking, just following their programs, but humans are socially programmed by exposure
we just act out what society programs us to think
so are we really that different?
young knoll
I don't mean to be picky here, since I kind of did something similar once, but this is getting off topic, right
peak escarp
it's somewhat related
one of the big themes of Overwatch is omnic rights, and whether they are people or not
young knoll
well, I guess it depends on what is actually true in their universe
sour basin
also true lol
young knoll
if even humans have souls
the writers get to make that up
I guess it is pretty much assumed humans to in their setting by default
peak escarp
it seems like the writers are in favor of omnics being seen as people
sour basin
but if we dont "know" whats "true" thats discussion
peak escarp
the characters who are against omnic rights are shown in somewhat negative ways
Zarya, Torbjorn, the junkers
young knoll
he helped design them, iirc, so he seems to harbor some guilt
peak escarp
he's fine with machines
sour basin
ah
peak escarp
he just doesn't like them thinking for themselves
he was against giving omnics the self-improving software that allowed them to learn and be so "human"
young knoll
well, the thing is, even if Omnics are actually "people" in their setting, it does bear mentioning that them being people does not make them the same species, so Omnics are somewhat comparable to an alien species that could be seen as a competitor
sour basin
you say alien. but its made by things from earth and by creatures from earth.
but "seen" as alien yeah
peak escarp
this same sort of argument has happened multiple times in human history, with people of colour and with women
"they may look like us and act like us, but they're not us so they don't get rights"
or something
young knoll
I know that, and I think that is why it is such a good story element
young knoll
but, objectively, Omnics are not the same as humans, is what I was trying to say with the aliens thing
Neaderthals and Homo Sapiens, for instance, are more similar than different
Whereas Omnics are not biologically based life forms
which is where I was going with the alien analogy
sour basin
voice lines?
young knoll
I think he said something about him not being human in a short?
taunting him?
I would need to check
young knoll
well, not sure that is necessarily his intent when doing so
peak escarp
Winston doesn't like being called monkey
young knoll
I mean, he is an ape, so it is not accurate
peak escarp
(at least Moira gets it right and calls him an ape)
sour basin
so junkers didnt like winton you say? and hammond was fighting with junkers. they didnt know right?
sorry for questions, im not great on following lore unless spoonfed lol
young knoll
I do not think Junkers are aware of winston, and they did not know that Hammond was a hamster
he was always in his mech
sour basin
oh you were talking about omnics nvm
thanks for discussion. learned alot and swam as a submarin- i mean thought alot about this
young knoll
you are welcome
limpid agate
The only people who debatably knew about Hammond are Bruce and the Queen.
Debatably
sour basin
bruce?
limpid agate
Hammond built Wrecking Ball in Bruce's garage
young knoll
my bad, was not aware of that possibility
sour basin
ah
peak escarp
sour basin
the garage?
peak escarp
icy plover
tbh i think that if blizzard wanted to, they could make like a movie or like a netflix series for all the story
swift mason
A few months ago there were leaks of an Overwatch show that had been bought out by somebody, in the same section as there being a diablo netflix series on one of the devs linkedin
worthy rose
Dzisiaj O 14.00 WSZYSCY SKACZEMY, ROBIMY TSUNAMI, UdostępniajToday At 14.00 WE ALL JUMP, WE MAKE A TSUNAMI, Sharp kto nie skacze ten z policji
worthy rose
OwO What's this?
rustic crescent
looks like an overwatch GlaDos
lavish elm
The series may not be on Netflix though, it wasn’t specified
atomic cosmos
hmmm what do omnic ask in return for helping volskaya industries when russian omnic war happened ?
grand wedge
We don't know - could be money, could be something else
hollow siren
I think the simple answer would be money
lavish elm
Likely money and tech
lime flax
Does anyone have a source on Torbjorn refusing the recall?
I've been looking and I haven't found anything saying he refused
peak escarp
I remember it being said during Blizzcon, but I can't find a clip of it
the interview was probably part of the virtual ticket content, which is no longer available
it is also implied by his very casual-looking redesign
peak escarp
I was thinking of a different interview
that panel explains Bastion's new look but not Torbjorn's
it was from the Blizzcon All Access desk, which nobody seems to have recorded
twin mantle
Overwatch conspiracy theory: Jeff did not put PvE in overwatch 1 so they could make more money on Overwatch 2
lament prawn
the real case: blizz wanted it to be a completely standalone game with separate progression, but jeff talked them into keeping your 4 years of progress
twin mantle
That might be true
peak escarp
that's what Jeff said at Blizzcon
unborn tendon
Hey idk if it has been addressed at all but I was wondering if anyone knows what hammonds affiliation is, he’s said to be friends with Winston so I would assume he would be sided with overwatch but does anyone know for sure?
peak escarp
he's neutral right now
he knows Winston, but they haven't met since he left Horizon ~12 years ago
and he was with the junkers, but he left Junkertown to explore the world
unborn tendon
Thanks, do you think they might expand on him at all in overwatch 2?
peak escarp
possibly
unborn tendon
Kk thx
grand wedge
I think the panel was called "evolving the art" or something - where they talked about Torb not joining OW and Bastion being with him in his workshop
white cobalt
i'm gonna miss the old tracer jacket
young knoll
one might even argue it is very forward looking
peak escarp
well
modern for the 2070s 😉
I think I like Mercy's new design the best so far
the shorter hair makes her look more her age (even if it makes her look like a Karen)
young knoll
I guess so
I still think she looks way younger than she really is, but some people do
peak escarp
I think she doesn't look that much younger
if I were to see Mercy not knowing anything about her, I'd guess she was in her 30s
young knoll
I am more inclined to 20s, but then I do think she is designed to look pretty youthful generally
so I guess it doesn't matter that much
peak escarp
I guess it's subjective
young knoll
more or less
valid terrace
Bastion is my fave so far
His Ganymede shoulder and Torb hat really add to the design
Even if they get dropped in gameplay
azure wadi
bastion needs nerf
valid terrace
He’s quite bad past diamond tbh
valid terrace
Echo came out
fathom tartan
I know that
azure wadi
lmao
valid terrace
Nothing new from that timeframe
fathom tartan
Missed you guys and talking about lore
valid terrace
Unless Reaper Masquerade counts as lore
fathom tartan
Noice
valid terrace
Like the god?
peak escarp
Winged Victory is inspired by Nike
fathom tartan
I assumed
peak escarp
but that's a non-canon skin
fathom tartan
I know
Nice that blizzard is knowledgeable in the Olympics making winged victory a summer games skin
Because that's the god some prayed to befor going to the Olympics
Oh also
Dunno if this is a lore thing
But I saw a owl thing on a pringles can and brig had a skin on it ig so that implies brig is sponsored by pringles
cosmic crest
wow, my two favourite things come together, Overwatch and pringles.
fathom tartan
Yeah you have like a chance to win a owl ticket or something
north finch
ummm
peak escarp
!!loreonly
twilit nacelleBOT
This channel is for serious discussion strictly related to the lore of Overwatch. Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
worthy rose
Waiting for overwatch 2 designs of the rest of the heroes and bad guys and non bad guys
young knoll
well, there does tend to be a general agreement from society, if you want to get picky
whether society gets to decide good and bad is another matter
fathom tartan
Name a problem not solved via some form of conflict
peak escarp
that doesn't make starting a conflict good
fathom tartan
But the intentions behind said conflict is to filter the weak and favor the strong
Strengthening the world as a whole
peak escarp
sounds like eugenics the hard way
fathom tartan
Now while the means may not justify the ends in some minds talon is willing to make the means
In order to get the end
fathom tartan
Well good and bad are simple constructions the world isn't black nor white
Instead a grey
peak escarp
by the standards of society, common sense and basic human decency, they are bad guys
there's no grey here
fathom tartan
It is simply perspective who is more or less grey
Doctor before I continue may I ask how old you are
peak escarp
why does it matter?
I had this exact same discussion with someone a few days ago, and they asked my age too
fathom tartan
I don't want to offend you but it's about brain development
Mind not fully mature have a hard time seeing grey
They are filled with thoughts of black and white
So they are quick to call a side bad or good
Without seeing the background or effects of either
peak escarp
we are talking about an organization of known terrorists
it doesn't matter if their actions sometimes have good results
fathom tartan
And this is why your age was asked
peak escarp
also, this is basically superhero fiction - we are told that Talon are the bad guys
fathom tartan
Here let me ask you this instead
peak escarp
tbh I'm probably older than you
fathom tartan
Have you ever been depressed
peak escarp
by a lot
fathom tartan
But have you ever been depressed
Of any kind
From just the passing emotion To medical
peak escarp
how is that relevant?
fathom tartan
Your mind is more mature if you have
When in state of depression your mind literally ages faster
peak escarp
what does that have to do with Talon?
fathom tartan
It has to do with your perspective I'm trying to help you see grey and how talon isn't just horrible
peak escarp
my perspective isn't the problem
Talon are the villains
we aren't meant to sympathize with them or think they are right
fathom tartan
Then why would they be given reason
peak escarp
because villains without motivation is poor writing
fathom tartan
They could have easily said they just want the world to suffer to make way for themselves and that's it for contol or power
But instead
They said they want to strengthen humanity
peak escarp
well there are better ways of strengthening humanity
fathom tartan
Name it
peak escarp
that don't involve a war against omnics
like inventions? how about becoming a world leader and making the world a better place that way?
peak escarp
okay? those things tend to happen anyway
fathom tartan
Yes
peak escarp
causing those things directly makes you the badguy
fathom tartan
Talon want to cut the weak so that this kind of foolishness stops
peak escarp
they never said that
they didn't start a war so wars would end
they started a war to push humanity forward, and to further their own interests
fathom tartan
They want to strengthen humanity
Yes pushing the world forward
The world almost always needs conflict to move
Talon saw this
And made a means to push humanity fast
peak escarp
this is fiction, where good and bad do exist
worthy rose
Talon kills innocents advocating for peace to push their own agenda of war. That makes you a bad bunch of eggs.
fathom tartan
The path to hell is paved with good intentions
peak escarp
why does every pseudo intellectual come in here and try to argue that Talon is "misunderstood" and "actually the good guys" and that Overwatch is just as bad as they are
fathom tartan
It's whatever I see there is no point in trying to let either of you see how talon could be grey you simply refuse to understand
Keep to you black and white world
peak escarp
I do see what you're trying to say, I just do not agree
fathom tartan
I'll enjoy mine
worthy rose
Just because that's their belief doesnt make it right.
peak escarp
I don't believe that starting a war that will kill thousands can be justified in any way
fathom tartan
Then humanity's history must be terrifying to you
peak escarp
history has made it pretty clear who the badguys are
fathom tartan
Just like it made it clear that napoleon was short
worthy rose
Humanity doesnt need war to progress, scientific advancement can continue without the deaths of the innocent.
peak escarp
Napoleon was taller than me
peak escarp
he had an inferiority complex
worthy rose
What does this have to do with Talon being 'misunderstood'?
You can sympathize with them all you like, in the context of the story they're still the bad guys
worthy rose
While I suppose you could make that arguement, they're pretty dang evil to me. At least Doomfist's ideal is. It seems like most of Talon is just using the group to further their own goals, or they're being manipulated/controlled by them. If the organization were to say, disband, I doubt many would lament that fact.
silver garnet
I don’t think it’s as black and white as these are the good guys and these are the bad guys. There are a lot of villains who’s ideals are more logical or better than the “good guys.”
peak escarp
why do so many people want to defend terrorists?
Talon are the bad guys - we are basically told that
their actions are not justified by their motives
limpid agate
Not to mention Winston's Overwatch is in gold plating as the good guys
The only "controvery" is the Petras Act
peak escarp
if you want a "grey" area, we've got Blackwatch
silver garnet
On the basic level yes
Good - Overwatch
Evil - Talon
But it can get complex if you look beyond the boundaries of “oh they do things I don’t morally agree with so they’re evil”
peak escarp
it's not thing I morally disagree with
its things society has generally agreed on as being bad/evil
like murder, terrorism and war
limpid agate
If you want people to understand
Explain your point better.
But there is nothing you can do to explain Winston's Overwatch as grey other than the Petras Act.
There is also nothing you can say to make the genocide of the human race at the hands of Null Sector morally white.
silver garnet
Winstons overwatch is pretty solid and yes you’re right about null sector but I don’t think anyone was trying to say they could be morally good (unless someone did and I didn’t scroll far enough up)
I don’t think those two really fit the bill of what we’re trying to say. For instance, Overwatch saves Genji, only if he worked for them is pretty messed up morally. While talon freeing sigma is actually good since he was literally locked up after being deemed “a threat to humanity”
silver garnet
They kidnapped a man who was kidnapped and locked up by the “good guys”
silver garnet
I’m just comparing the scenarios, not saying they’re related.
limpid agate
It was never suggested that Sigma was contained by "good guys" either.
peak escarp
he's no more free with Talon than he was in that government facility
limpid agate
I also don't think you need to strawman "threat to humanity." He was deemed unsafe because he was not mentally stable, and was literally creating singularities without any control.
peak escarp
also, Overwatch saved Genji's life before making their offer
limpid agate
Lets say you had a person who, uncontrollably, would kill someone within 50m of them every 1-4 hours.
peak escarp
Genji could have refused, and lived a crippled but otherwise healthy life
limpid agate
There is no correct way to handle the situation.
And someone breaking in to "free" the subconscious killer is not being heroic.
silver garnet
Why would he be crippled if they saved him before the offer ?
limpid agate
Especially not if they're just using the subconscious killer as their own weapon.
peak escarp
its implied that the fight left him unable to walk
he agreed to it because he wanted to walk again
silver garnet
We will rebuild you, but only if you work for us - still morally unsound.
Yes there’s no right way to handle sigma but a secret government locking him down isn’t good either
fathom tartan
The same scenario happens with mcree they make him turn on friends for freedom
silver garnet
Our entire point was that it isn’t as simple as these are good guys and these are bad guys if you dig deeper into it
limpid agate
You're gonna need better examples then.
peak escarp
McCree wasn't forced to turn on his friends
he was offered a chance at redemption after being arrested
limpid agate
Because some of these either have error, or are said to be grey in universe.
fathom tartan
The same way a slave isn't forced to work
limpid agate
What the fuck.
I don't think you can compare making a deal to slavery.
Considering making a deal is
A very real thing.
fathom tartan
Mcree wasn't forced to turn the same way a slave isn't forced to work
limpid agate
I don't think you can compare making a deal to slavery.
peak escarp
there is no mention of McCree/Blackwatch going after Deadlock after McCree joined them
silver garnet
It’s the ideology behind it, not in the literal sense
limpid agate
You can't be serious.
fathom tartan
If mcree didn't turn he was locked up forever
limpid agate
Yes that's how jail works.
fathom tartan
If a slave doesn't work they're whipped
peak escarp
in fact its implied that they didn't clean up the Deadlock gang after McCree's bust
limpid agate
Okay, so lets put things in context.
In the real world
You have a bank robbery.
The police come and arrest the 5 robbers.
4 go to jail. 1 is offered to become a cop.
fathom tartan
And your comparison sucks
limpid agate
Its literally the same thing.
silver garnet
It isn’t a comparison to slavery, it’s a metaphor behind how the deal isn’t really a deal
limpid agate
Replace bank robbers with train robbers, and police with international police.
And its literally the exact same thing as McCree
cold root
Yes it is
iron plume
the gang was already taken down
peak escarp
he didnt rat out his gang
iron plume
that's why McCree was there in the first place
limpid agate
^
4 go to jail. 1 is offered to become a cop.
Not, 1 offered to become a cop so he can arrest the other 4
peak escarp
he got busted in a sting operation, and Overwatch saw his skills and offered him a job
fathom tartan
Well I'm either gonna cut your hands or you join me and I don't cut your hand which do you choose
limpid agate
What would you suggest you do instead to 5 bank robbers
If not arrest them
Kill them on the spot without the choice?
Arrest them without the choice?
Chop their feet off so they cant walk and then let them go?
What is your point
fathom tartan
Oh sorry let's just offer gang members into the police force
limpid agate
You just changed arguments
fathom tartan
You killed 20 people? Oh sure come right in
silver garnet
Alright how about Doomfist or Moira, they’re labeled as evil when the idealism and motivation behind their actions isn’t really wrong.
iron plume
You can argue the same thing for any dictator
peak escarp
Moira isnt evil, she's just unethical
silver garnet
So a good king is evil simply because he’s a dictator?
iron plume
eh I'd say that's pretty evil
Talon are not good kings
and also I'd argue yes, but that's beside the point
cold root
Dictators arent always bad... look at ancient greek history
just the fact that they are the only one to rule, doesnt mean that they rule badly
iron plume
power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely
but again, beside the point
Talon aren't comparable to "good dictators"
cold root
true
silver garnet
It’s the idea I’m talking about not talon as a whole
Doomfist isn’t really evil by himself
People don’t agree with him so he’s labeled evil
iron plume
people don't agree with him because he wants to start a global war
peak escarp
he's labeled as evil because he's starting a war
fathom tartan
He wants to strengthen humanity through conflict
limpid agate
There is also nothing you can say to make the genocide of the human race at the hands of Null Sector morally white.
iron plume
which is a terrible fucking idea
fathom tartan
Did I say I agree
peak escarp
like I said earlier, there are better ways to strengthen humanity than by starting a war
silver garnet
Omnics mercilessly killing people isn’t the same as Doomfists revolution
fathom tartan
Nothing is white
limpid agate
The other one did
iron plume
he wants to "strengthen humanity" through a massive wave of death
iron plume
are you one of those thanos did nothing wrong people
limpid agate
But there is nothing you can do to explain Winston's Overwatch as grey other than the Petras Act.
cold root
The fact that it is moraly not good doesnt mean it doesnt work
peak escarp
the ends do not justify the means
silver garnet
Thanos wasn’t morally correct to some, but he was never wrong
silver garnet
Was he wrong tho?
fathom tartan
End justifying means has been a struggle sense forever
iron plume
...yes
cold root
@peak escarp if you kill one person to safe 3 more, do the ends justify the means?
peak escarp
killing anyone for any reason is wrong
silver garnet
I’m not saying I’d end half of humanity, but his argument of saving humanity by cutting it short because of the restraints of too many people isn’t wrong
iron plume
(it is)
limpid agate
He isnt trying to save humanity
fathom tartan
I feel like I'm talking to children unable to grasp the concept of good and bad not existing
So I'm just gonna go watch YouTube
limpid agate
You are making bad arguments and contradicting yourself.
Don't blame others when you stop making sense.
peak escarp
I feel like I'm talking to a child who doesn't see why killing is a bad thing
cold root
killing isnt always a bad thing....
peak escarp
it is
iron plume
...it is
fathom tartan
Live in the real world for a second six
iron plume
for many practical reasons in addition to the moral ones
cold root
if someone is suffering, you might want to end it
limpid agate
You keep changing points.
iron plume
but again besides the point
limpid agate
Pick 1 thing
fathom tartan
Death happens every waking moment
peak escarp
the death sentence has been abolished in most places because its horrible
fathom tartan
Everything is grey you dont seem to understand
Killing isn't necessarily bad
It isn't good either
peak escarp
"death happens so killing is okay" is a very naive argument
silver garnet
Everything is from the perspective of the person
cold root
it depends on the situation
iron plume
"There's no absolute right or wrong" doesn't mean "everything is morally the same"
fathom tartan
Everything is grey
limpid agate
"There's no absolute right or wrong" doesn't mean "everything is morally the same"
This.
What's your point.
Grey is not 1 shade.
silver garnet
Thats what were sayig
fathom tartan
Of course it isn't
limpid agate
What's your point.
fathom tartan
Talon isn't just bad guys
iron plume
you were equating offering a would-be prisoner freedom for a job and kidnapping a mentally unstable man
fathom tartan
Overwatch isn't just good guys
iron plume
yes, Talon is also Sombra
silver garnet
Thanos is technically wrong for killing a random half of humanity, he's also technically right because too many people = end of the world anyway.
limpid agate
Talon isn't just bad guys
Overwatch isn't just good guys
If you want to argue these.
silver garnet
You cant just say beside the point
limpid agate
Use better points
silver garnet
give fruit to why you think hes wrong
iron plume
I can
iron plume
because it has nothing to do with the conversation
limpid agate
Yours are a joke.
Overwatch
We already established old Overwatch was fucked up.
Its established in universe
Its explictly said in multiple places in canon by multiple heroes
Both "good guys" and "bad guys"
silver garnet
How can you accept old overwatch as messed up, but can wholeheartedly say talon is completely evil
limpid agate
The points you've mad up until now were a waste of time.
Where did I say that.
Discord has a quote feature.
silver garnet
"We've established old overwatch was fucked up"
limpid agate
but can wholeheartedly say talon is completely evil
Where did I say that.
Discord has a quote feature.
silver garnet
So you say Talon isn't completely evil yes?
limpid agate
Where did I say that.
Discord has a quote feature.
@limpid agate
silver garnet
and so theyre a..... grey area
limpid agate
What a worthless point
peak escarp
they're still the bad guys
limpid agate
Your points are bad. There are good ones to make
silver garnet
Im just pointing out ive never insulted your arguments or said mine were better
limpid agate
The points you are making are objectively not good. I am going to rephrase it for you.
fathom tartan
Taiga shut up
iron plume
oof
fathom tartan
You are spamming at this point
limpid agate
The point of this channel is lore discussion.
fathom tartan
Here lemme copy you
limpid agate
Your point is:
Talon isn't just bad guys
Your evidence and arguments for it are:
Doomfist
Moira
Sigma
fathom tartan
The point of this channel is lore discussion.
@limpid agate this is a bad point
limpid agate
Or to be more specific.
fathom tartan
Doomfist want th strengthen humanity
silver garnet
Doomfist isn't technically wrong, you've equated the omnics killing everyone senselessly to a person trying to revolutionize humanity in a radical way.
fathom tartan
Moria want to advance humanity is seen as unethical
Reaper was betrayed and wants revenge
Sigma was put into hand that coudl better control him if he was to get out of control
Widow is conditioned
silver garnet
Sigma is indefinitely in better hands with Talon rather than being locked up
peak escarp
Reaper thinks he was betrayed and is exacting vengeance on people who didnt have anything to do with it
fathom tartan
Sombra is the most un justifiable because she just wants knowledge so she can be powerful
peak escarp
Sigma is being used by Talon, and they're doing nothing to help his condition
limpid agate
Would you suggest that disposing of people whose ideals go against yours is not morally incorrect?
fathom tartan
What is overwatch doing
limpid agate
That's not what I asked.
silver garnet
I mean your good guys are doing the same thing
limpid agate
Would you suggest that disposing of people whose ideals go against yours is not morally incorrect?
Yes or no.
silver garnet
Would you suggest that eliminating a group with ideals different from yours is morally correct?
Yes or no?
limpid agate
Dont answer a question with a question.
silver garnet
Im asking you your question'
limpid agate
Then I will ask a different question.
fathom tartan
Taiga may I ask do you even know what philosophy is
limpid agate
Let me rephrase the question, or ask a new one.
Let's say that there is a person who possesses absolute power. Would it be morally wrong for them to dispose of a select few persons for the greater good of the general population.
Much like the aforementioned tyrant or Doomfist
fathom tartan
It's what the real world would do
silver garnet
Thats the thing, theres no right or wrong answers. Both options suck but both options have benefits
One isnt better than the other
but in the real world
fathom tartan
Philosophy 101
silver garnet
one is definitely more likely
limpid agate
So would you, personally, condone this disposal for the greater good?
fathom tartan
Did we say that
limpid agate
No, that's why I am asking the question.
silver garnet
Thats the problem, you arent taking yourself out of the equation
limpid agate
I am not saying what part of the equation I am. Whether I am the power, the disposal, or the greater good.
silver garnet
Everyone's moral standards are biased, Person A can say eliminate them, Person B can say save them. Is person A evil?
limpid agate
I am simply asking, objectively, would you condone a disposal.
fathom tartan
Or is person b evil?
limpid agate
Evil is defined by the one who defines it.
I am simply asking, objectively, would you condone a disposal.
There are 2 answers to this.
limpid agate
Yes - You would condone a disposal. You would condone acts such as Doomfist's war.
No - You would not condone a disposal. You would not condone acts such as Doomfist's war.
fathom tartan
They are both the same coin just looked at from different sides
limpid agate
I dont give a shit about good or evil.
I am asking
Would you
Personally
Condone it or not.
silver garnet
I don't see why our answers matter
iron plume
have you actually read any philosophy or did you just hear about it from an edgy youtuber
silver garnet
You kill no one and doom the rest or you kill some and save everyone else. Either way people are dying. There is no good or evil, nor is there a right answer
iron plume
because "there's not any answer for anything" is not "philosophy"
limpid agate
You want a specific, and objective answer. Okay.
fathom tartan
You misunderstand philosophy
iron plume
and you don't even know what philosophy is
limpid agate
Here is an ethical dilemma
silver garnet
Overwatch can be seen as saviors to genji/ they can also be seen as people who manipulated him
fathom tartan
That is for torlly tom to decide
fathom tartan
No
silver garnet
Taiga thats the same question
fathom tartan
I'm fightingfox1204
limpid agate
I know its the same question.
fathom tartan
It's the same answer then
silver garnet
It has the same answer, somebody dying. Trolly tom is gonna be labeled both evil and good by different parts of the masses
Our answer doesnt matter
If we say option A then what?
limpid agate
Its not somebody dying
valid terrace
The train tracks are rusty on the main path, so more people might die, but you can guarantee an absolute 1 where no one else is hurt, would you switch the track to kill the one?
silver garnet
If we say option B then what?
limpid agate
Look again at the picture
Its either
- 1 person dies
- 0 people die
Do you kill the person or not
silver garnet
You derail the train - an accident happens/people die
WHat do you mean no one dies?
fathom tartan
Do we know for certain 0 die
valid terrace
It’s just switching tracks
silver garnet
In the context of that picture no, no one will die. In the context of our conversation, someone will die with either choice
fathom tartan
Who is the 1
limpid agate
Tom Hanks
silver garnet
I don't understand the significance of this picture
fathom tartan
Why is he there
fathom tartan
No one
valid terrace
You know for certain one dies on one path, so an equal uncertainty shouldn’t alter your answer
fathom tartan
Just seeing you let me talk you into circle is amusing
valid terrace
Because you don’t have an answer besides letting it play out
limpid agate
I dont think you know what a circular argument is.
A circular argument isnt repeating yourself in different ways because the first party is just refusing to talk
A circular argument is like a Catch 22
fathom tartan
I would of let you say all that then say it dosent matter again
valid terrace
Why wouldn’t it matter
limpid agate
Okay, new question
If it doesnt matter, that means you cannot be upset about the outcome
silver garnet
I never chose, its the same question. If i derail the train in no one dies lit/but highly unlikely. If i dont then one person will die. The idea of "If you derail train no one will die" proves what? Its a random picture with a SPECIFIED variable of no one dying. In the real world and in the context of what were talking about that picture would lead the derailed section to a cliff
limpid agate
Correct?
fathom tartan
Oh emotions and logic dont need to entwine
valid terrace
Either path shares that uncertainty
limpid agate
If it doesnt matter, that means you cannot be upset about the outcome
Correct
@limpid agate
valid terrace
Why would you kill a man for crackers
limpid agate
If you can be upset about the outcome, then it does matter.
silver garnet
I don't see your angle Mos
valid terrace
that picture would lead the derailed section to a cliff
Which path?
You wouldn’t know
Why kill a man when everyone might die either way
silver garnet
You are taking a very specific scenario and applying it to a scenario with no specifics
limpid agate
So lets make a new example. I have a gun and am pointing it at you. Are you against me pulling the trigger?
valid terrace
You can guarantee the one lives
silver garnet
In that picture yes
limpid agate
Or does it not matter?
fathom tartan
Dose it
limpid agate
Guess not.
valid terrace
When we are talking about a specific example, you can’t just stretch it to every example
That’s not how that works
silver garnet
Im not stretching anything
that one picture is what your basing the idea of uncertainty off
valid terrace
You literally questioned the stated facts
fathom tartan
Philosophy and age old discussions are talked about so frequently in lore we need a philosophical section in this discord
limpid agate
Great, now that we have established that it does not matter to you whether or not I dispose of you, we are dropping this and moving on.
I got the answer I wanted
silver garnet
I didn't question it, i stated how it doesn't relate because we have known variables
fathom tartan
It'll eventually ge there
valid terrace
Talon bad
silver garnet
In that picture someone dies or some MAY die, in our example some may die or some die and the rest live - two bad alternatives
fathom tartan
*get
limpid agate
Its going there now.
fathom tartan
Do we know what college mercy is from
valid terrace
If I’ve ever seen one
silver garnet
Because my answer has no bearing? IF i say option A then what
what will you do with my asnwer?/
peak escarp
it hasn't been mentioned, but I assume it was a major university in Switzerland
fathom tartan
Was she willing to go to the military or was she like drafted
limpid agate
It was a simple question.
If you said yes, it is acceptable to dispose of a person (like Doomfist's war) for the greater good, that would mean it is acceptable for me to ban you for the greater good of the channel.
If you said no, it is not acceptable to dispose of a person for the greater good. You would not be banned, but we would also agree that Doomfist was wrong.
fathom tartan
Oh wait in Switzerland dosent everyone have to serve
limpid agate
Was she willing to go to the military or was she like drafted
We see her recruitment in Valkyrie
silver garnet
So you call a tyrant evil by becoming a tyrant
peak escarp
Mercy wasn't in the military - she was recruit to Overwatch directly
limpid agate
!!loreText
twilit nacelleBOT
Short Stories:
Bastet: https://bit.ly/2QuXHmM
What You Left Behind: https://bit.ly/2Fh7MRz
Valkyrie: https://bit.ly/2CF5JVE
News Reports:
Fading Glory; Jack Morrison: http://bit.ly/2f9TPq4
Experimental Weapon Stolen: http://bit.ly/2fMrKsj
Lucio's Synaesthesia World Tour: http://bit.ly/2flja2U
LumériCo: http://bit.ly/1XAJfd1
Overwatch is Back: http://bit.ly/1TAWebT
LumériCo Revealed: http://bit.ly/2e6P5oj
Portero Steps Down: http://bit.ly/2fk8Bes
Efi Oladele Interview: http://bit.ly/2miMZkT
Horizon Lunar Colony: http://bit.ly/2reMSKx
Attack on Helix: http://bit.ly/2tn45mk
Oslo Attack: https://bit.ly/2uHKXUr
Don Rumbotico: https://bit.ly/2VtzZKX
Documents:
Mei's Adventure: http://bit.ly/2fMxRg4
Torb's Letter: http://bit.ly/2HK4CWa
Venice Declassified: https://bit.ly/2Hs807B
Cuerva: https://bit.ly/2BHEqd9
Travel Guides:
Oasis: http://bit.ly/2iPTM4K
Paris: https://bit.ly/2GEyOoq
limpid agate
You can read about it here.
limpid agate
Probably not.
fathom tartan
Disappointment
peak escarp
limpid agate
Guess so
peak escarp
its linked on the Media page
fathom tartan
Hell yeah
peak escarp
limpid agate
I didnt think it was there. Most soundtracks aren't.
silver garnet
If you said yes, it is acceptable to dispose of a person (like Doomfist's war) for the greater good, that would mean it is acceptable for me to ban you for the greater good of the channel.
If you said no, it is not acceptable to dispose of a person for the greater good. You would not be banned, but we would also agree that Doomfist was wrong.
@limpid agate
I gotta point out that disposing me for the greater good of the channel (Much like doomfist) wouldnt be right or wrong because some would a agree and some would not.
Also the "Greater good" of the channel would be your version of the greater good - not the channels,
In the same way, not disposing me is the exact same thing, some would agree, some would not but the "greater good" is still your version of this "greater good". There is no 100% sway either side. So this "right" or "wrong" only exists in the context of who agrees with what. There is no solid definition of good and evil or right or wrong. You've proven nothing
fathom tartan
I found the song