He was never gonna get locked up anyways
#lore-discussion
gray frost
worthy rose
He killed him because if they locked him up, his team of attorneys and lawyers would just get him out.
gray frost
his squad would just pay up, lawyer up, and he'd be free again
worthy rose
And then he’d be back doing the same criminal shit he always did
gray frost
and then the whole blackwatch squad might get a hit put out on them so
worthy rose
Ironically Gabriel joined Talon too.
gray frost
and Moira
gray frost
Genji did not, McCree did not
worthy rose
Considering most of them used Blackwatch techniques in the comic
gray frost
no other Blackwatch members I can think of
worthy rose
Just troopers
worthy rose
Can I just say how much I respect Reinhardt for the fact despite how old he is, he’s still willing to put whatever strength he has left in helping people and going into dangerous situations.
gray frost
i mean he does have his trusty broken support character brig
not many can boast about that
worthy rose
Lol
gray frost
I wanna see like
im gonna go through the overwatch hero list and think of some stuff i wanna see
worthy rose
I believe he’s her godfather if I remember
gray frost
yeah he is
he named her
Torbjorn got his arm fucked, and Rein kept checking on him and being annoying, good friend stuff, but Torb was basically like "you can name my daughter if you fuck off"
and now everyone's close
worthy rose
Lol
gray frost
Ana:
I wanna see an Ana and Pharah moment. Like maybe a childhood Pharah being taught the principles of good by Ana. And then a cut to the present, as Pharah helps someone she thinks back to that same principle, maybe a singular tear, because she thinks her mother is still dead. But at the same time we have Ana as the vigilante Shrike breaking that principle. Maybe even an emotional scene as Pharah apprehends and accidentally kills Shrike, only to realize her mother had been alive all along, but not any more
that'd be
nice
worthy rose
I want to see Reaper and Soldier fighting back to back at some point
gray frost
did we ever see the reaper vs. soldier fight
aside from a shitty slideshow
i wanna see that whole thing because there was sides
worthy rose
Nah it was just a slideshow
gray frost
i wanna know who took Reyes's side and who took Jack's side
worthy rose
Who was Jack’s old boyfriend again? I forgot.
worthy rose
Ah
worthy rose
Kk
worthy rose
Because it’s just one of those few names I can’t remember.
gray frost
it's not brought up too often
worthy rose
Along with a lot of others
So is Sigma ever aware of what actually goes on in reality?
gray frost
yeah
im pretty sure he either hops between personalities, or he hops between realities
gray frost
not sure what that is
thorn ibex
@worthy rose he would be out of lock-up if Overwatch detained him. The whole point of Blackwatch is to do stuff Overwatch cant.
gray frost
he's in Talon...
thorn ibex
Reyes just killed him outright.
worthy rose
Y'know... after I watched The Second Renaissance animation on Youtube, the Omnic War sounds even scarier than before I watched that two-parts video.
Imagine Omnics experimenting on humans... using them as live batteries for power plants...
frosty shell
That's the Matrix, it wouldn't make any sense in real life
icy raft
Something that doesn't leave my brain: at the end of storm rising Doomfist has a chat with an Omnic. That omnic sounds and looks like Reaper.
WHY?
iron plume
didn't make any sense in matrix either
brazen flare
soon
placid fulcrum
I don't see any resemblkance to Reaper
limpid agate
@random dew No advertising
raw nova
@worthy rose what is this second renaissance thing haven’t heard of it
brazen flare
two hours left
dusty cairn
for the ptr?
brazen flare
with that weird streamer whos not seagul so im appregensive
dusty cairn
yeah beard guy
brazen flare
10 am pt
dusty cairn
it'll start at 10
brazen flare
isnt for 2 hours
placid fulcrum
PT 10 is 2 hours from now
peak escarp
normie player?
last inlet
Isn't that the kinda player you'd need for something like this?
Someone who doesn't take it too serously?
last inlet
Yeah it gets old sometimes
teal meadow
Doesn't mean you should give privileges to someone that doesn't give a shit deep inside
peak escarp
well he must care, otherwise he would have turned it down
last inlet
Doesn't make him a bad pick either
peak escarp
even if he only cares about the views
teal meadow
he must care
last inlet
It's a good opportunity, to help show off a hero people have been waiting for for a while
teal meadow
nah, views are the only thing he probably care more
last inlet
Well I'm sure you know him personally to make that call
teal meadow
Right now he's laughting about the fact that "servers are down" while the ptr was never opened in the first place
peak escarp
yes
hopefully Jeff answers some good questions on the stream
and hopefully Tim thinks to ask them
teal meadow
Why do people say shit like this, only when they have a different opinion than theirs, but never when THEIR opinion is the one different
I mean, if that's how you choose to see them
@last inlet
last inlet
I mean, if that's how you choose to take it
dusty cairn
can someone send the link for the stream quick
peak escarp
it's in #overwatch-news
dusty cairn
kk
brazen flare
excuse me
really
we dont need more dps
ugh
we have too many dps
her ult seems
bad...
i guess?
placid fulcrum
Liao: Nobody other than Overwatch trusts me after I created all those killer robots! What can I do to redeem myself?
Oh, I know! I'll create an even more deadly robot!
I love that she echoes (heh) people's lines
peak escarp
probably after the stream
brazen flare
i saw someone in main chat saying ptr updated next week
so i got worried
i was looking forward to trying out the new hero, even if im dissapointed shes another dps in a bloated dps roster
peak escarp
this is why we need more streamers that care about lore
sharp orbit
in favour on pushing the PTR to live
both would've been nice
talking about the lore first
and then pushing the PTR live
brazen flare
shes not even live yet
ok now it is
but yea he and jeff seem to imply there will be a lore video up on the youtube
so hopefully
caus ei love the lore too
last inlet
The last damage we got was Ashe so...
brazen flare
does that matter?
idc how long ago we got a dps
the dps list is bloated
theres not enough healers and tanks
but healers need the most tlc
peak escarp
Jeff says they have multiple tanks and supports in the works
brazen flare
they fuckign better
and they better be relesed first before any more dps
atleast echo can be a third healer for your team
atleats theres that consolation
valid terrace
Soujourn is likely damage
brazen flare
mauga is dps
valid terrace
Nah he’s tank
peak escarp
Mauga is likely tank
peak escarp
valid terrace
JQueen is either tank or dps depending on if she’s in a mech or not
brazen flare
or junkerqueen is like super shock suprise support
valid terrace
Could be
brazen flare
she gets like some kinda lucio style heal
valid terrace
Doomfist being damage over tank is the last time they’ve had a surprise role like that
Imo
peak escarp
why would Doomfist be tank?
valid terrace
Before we knew more about him I mean
When it was just the gauntlet
Everyone speculated a big omnic or something
peak escarp
someone who could "level a skyscraper" didn't sound like a tank
valid terrace
Does to me but I guess it doesn’t matter
Most of the tank ults are more powerful abilities when you think about it
valid terrace
Most of the dps ones are just being good with a weapon
brazen flare
i dont find dps that satisfying tbh, like people say tank and healer dont hav ethe same feel as dps
but alot do...
and alot also hav ethe satisfaction of helping yoiur team
placid fulcrum
it wasn't jeff who said there will be lore videos on youtube, it was tim
he was referring to the videos already on yotuube
so we missed out on our chance to learn more about her
limpid agate
junkerqueen and soujourn are dps
unless junkerqueen is suprise tank
Junkerqueen is literally a mech champion
placid fulcrum
there are already two other tanks in mechs, they wouldn't give us another
peak escarp
I'd rather see her mech be her ult
deft gorge
Yea
safe trout
I don’t think junkerqueen is ever gonna be a hero
sharp orbit
Ok Tim is finally gonna talk about Echo lore
peak escarp
he means the one shown yesterday
sharp orbit
with Jeff
peak escarp
but Jeff might have more info that isn't in that vid
placid fulcrum
aww... yeah, I hope he'll give us some more details
why was she locked up? what's her relationship with overwatch heroes? is liao confirmed dead or assumed dead?
placid fulcrum
now
dusty cairn
so i can install it now?
peak escarp
yes
brazen flare
echo isnt OP
shes a glass canon
she has strong abilityys but is like paper
i feel even more so that tracer
her main weapon should be mor elike doomfists tho
peak escarp
she's like a Tracer that can fly
brazen flare
and her cooldowns need to eb longer
dusty cairn
not rly
brazen flare
her main weapon is too rapid fire
dusty cairn
the secondary fire is insane
brazen flare
i enjoy this almost no limits tho it just makes me like
why am i even playing nbo limits
if i still have alow chance to egt to play echo
dusty cairn
when's the actual update tho?
placid fulcrum
"There she worked on the team that was responsible for the design and creation of the omnics that would ultimately wage war against humanity during the Omnic Crisis."
so they're doubling down on Liao's responsibility for the omnics
all omnics
peak escarp
When Liao was killed in attack on an Overwatch facility, Overwatch’s leadership was reluctant to continue pursuing such a dangerous project, and all development on Echo was shut down, and the robot was placed into quarantine.
Echo was in the pod because she was considered a dangerous project
dusty cairn
quarantine yeah
placid fulcrum
"due to Overwatch’s restrictions on artificial intelligence research and development after the Omnic Crisis, Liao was forced to limit Echo’s capabilities."
hm... I wonder what her intended design was
hasty surge
lore!!!!!
placid fulcrum
and how does mccree and winston feature into this
last inlet
Glad we're getting another dps tbh
peak escarp
McCree was Liao's bodyguard
placid fulcrum
mccree especially sounds like he disapproved of the quarantine. was that the reason why he refused to support jack's side of the conflict with reyes?
last inlet
So she def dead
peak escarp
so he saw her working on Echo, and got to know her
placid fulcrum
oh
still reading her story.. guess i'll have to finish
"but had serious limits to its independent decision making. Critically, Echo had multiple layers of protections, failsafes, and security to keep it under control." HMMM interesting
"Echo was used successfully on test missions alongside Overwatch strike teams" so that's how winston knows her
peak escarp
the data chip is probably part of the failsafes
placid fulcrum
"However, the truth was that Liao had programmed Echo" Liao lied to the overwatch leadership!
"After thousands of hours in the scientist’s presence, much of Liao’s behaviors (including her speech), were adopted by the Echo robot." HA! knew it
she IS based off Liao's personality
last inlet
well kinda but no
last inlet
She just learned how to act like her because that's all she had
brazen flare
shes her mom
placid fulcrum
I wonder if McCree feels responsible for Liao's death? since he was supposed to be her guard, but he apparently wasn't there with her when she needed a guard the most
peak escarp
maybe
hasty surge
did we learn anything?
last inlet
I can't remember, did McCree join OW after BW disbanded?
peak escarp
we learned all her stats
placid fulcrum
yeah, not literally her, jsut based off of her. which is one of the thigns I theorized
placid fulcrum
the bio gives us a lot, which is nice
placid fulcrum
we don't know when
presumably after her death
since overwatch still existed after it
last inlet
Then maybe he feels bad about her death but probably not responsible. If the attack happened after blackwatch died
if
placid fulcrum
"After thousands of hours in the scientist’s presence, much of Liao’s behaviors (including her speech), were adopted by the Echo robot. This secret that was known by very few, including Blackwatch agent Jesse McCree"
so she was designed "thousands of hours" before blackwatch was suspended
last inlet
So when did the attack happen
placid fulcrum
it's unclear
last inlet
And she was already finished during those thousands of hours
otherwise how can she adopt anything?
peak escarp
she has an adaptive program
placid fulcrum
"But as she is exposed to new people, new ideas, and new situations without Dr. Liao to guide her, no one knows how she might evolve in the future." hmm... I sense a character arc
peak escarp
she's always learning
hasty surge
liao is from singapore
dusty cairn
she will also have her will of saving the world
placid fulcrum
2000 hours is 83 days at minimum, so she had to be designed at least a year before retribution
peak escarp
I guessed Singapore the other day
dusty cairn
so she won't turn evil or any of that
peak escarp
when we were thinking of countries that speak Chinese
hasty surge
she doesn't speak singlish lol
placid fulcrum
her base of operations is switzerland, so the attack had to be on the swiss base... weird... was she quarantined AFTER the swiss base was blown up, or was there more than one attack on the base over the years?
placid fulcrum
"She dreamed of improving upon the original omnic designs." so echo is similar to orisa in this regard. she's an improved design of an omnic
valid terrace
Yeah they said they were reluctant to use her after Liao died, so there had to be some period after where she was shutdown
peak escarp
they probably didn't know what to do with her after her creator died
narrow nymph
In fear that the project MIGHT go the wrong direction because of its adaptive learning personality (alp), it was actually quarantined at that point
subtle, but a wonderful way to make it into search algorithms
hasty surge
I meant doctor mina liao
placid fulcrum
where did you get that quote from, Kenobi? did jeff say it?
hasty surge
Developer update
Another thing to note
Echo was created and shut down before Winston came to Earth
peak escarp
she couldn't be
she knows Winston
Echo was used successfully on test missions alongside Overwatch strike teams, but Overwatch leadership was reluctant to put it into full service.
placid fulcrum
winston joined the strike team after uprising
but no, that doens't help us narrow down echo's creation date
which overwatch facility was blown up by talon, which later led to retribution?
oh wait, we DO know!
athena is already active in Uprising
and liao began working on echo after creating athena
and since blackwatch was disbanded after retribution, it means that echo was created between Uprising and Retribution, maybe a little before the Uprising
developer update also states that liao was friends with mccree
peak escarp
I don't follow your logic
placid fulcrum
I wonder if he sees her in echo
peak escarp
we first see Athena during Uprising, but she could have existed long before that
placid fulcrum
my logic is that the start date of Echo's development had to have been before uprising, but she couldn't have been quarantined before upriisng, because she had to still be around to witness winston becoming part of the strike team
so her quarantine would be either around or post-retribution
do you perhaps remember which was the place that got blown up then?
not switzerland?
placid fulcrum
hm, so it's not the one when liao died, then
frosty shell
Wouldn't Morrison have mentioned Liao if she died in Oslo?
peak escarp
I don't think so, they would have mentioned it
placid fulcrum
I misspoke then
peak escarp
I figured
placid fulcrum
does ptr have hero interactions in the spawn room?
peak escarp
now I need some art of Liao working in her lab with McCree standing guard
placid fulcrum
liao/mccree
peak escarp
echo/mccree
spiral yarrow
Can someone explain why pharah’s blood type is on her skin? I get the ones for morrison and reyes, (which i dunno why they added their religions aswell but okay) but why for pharah? Was helix a military program?
peak escarp
Pharah was in the Egypt Air Force before joining Helix
iron plume
they have their religions because they're on American dogtags
spiral yarrow
Ah okay, thanks
peak escarp
As a child, Fareeha dreamed of following in her mother's footsteps and joining the global peacekeeping force, Overwatch. She enlisted in the Egyptian army, and her dogged persistence and tactical prowess caused her to rise up through the officer ranks.
iron plume
proper burial rituals in case of something going very wrong
iron plume
Even her army time aside
A paramilitary/mercenary group would have the exact same reasons to put a blood type note on someone's person as an army would
spiral yarrow
So if someone leaves the army, they keep them? Because pharah never joined overwatch as far as i know.
Just helix afterwards
white cobalt
im late to this? https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/news/23356245?blzcmp=app
placid fulcrum
"You’ve seen her before: a sleek, cyclopean omnic"
omnic 😈
waiting for Doc and Jewvia to flip all tables on the continent 😂
iron plume
don't be an ass
placid fulcrum
welp, I was wrong as well, she's not an AI
iron plume
how is she not an AI
Liao’s achievement—an adaptive, versatile artificial intelligence
literally from the article
peak escarp
why would I flip tables?
placid fulcrum
after being told like a hundred times that I'm WRONGWRONGWRONG to call her an omnic, I had the impression it's something you two feel strongly about
peak escarp
What she created was a multirole, adaptive robot
iron plume
it calls her an omnic in the introduction
placid fulcrum
so she's all 3 then - an ai, a robot, and an omnic (or omnic 2.0, considering that Liao wanted to improve upon the oriignal design)
peak escarp
the devs call Bastion a he constantly, doesn't make them right
placid fulcrum
gotta wonder about the meaning of that sign on her forhead though
placid fulcrum
"Years later, an attempt to transport Echo to a secure government facility " so we were right, this was a government train, not helix train
placid fulcrum
"As she develops more self-awareness and wonders what the future holds for her, her teammates, too, begin to wonder—will she remain a mere echo of Liao, or will she become her own person?" not my favourite character arc, to be honest, but ok
I still don't like her
didn't like her in reunion, don't like her now
but I do like her kit. she may even become my main among DPS chars
mossy crater
But aren’t ai omnics and robot kinda the same
peak escarp
kinda
mossy crater
I prefer calling her op
placid fulcrum
she's not op
mossy crater
Her ult is but the character isn’t
iron plume
this is not a lore discussion
mossy crater
Her origin story is op
mossy crater
What was wrong with it
white cobalt
I dont like so much the idea about name dropping Liao then kill her :(
But at the same time this is a trope were the robot/omnics are looking for their fit in the world.
exotic torrent
Lets discuss about the future heroes?
placid fulcrum
I'll forgive anything, anything, as long as they don't pair her up with mccree
peak escarp
if Liao was alive, they would have to explain where she is now and why she hasn't been heard of in 4 years
placid fulcrum
yeah, she ded
very ded.
she has fulfilled her purpose. overwatch has enough characters in need of arcs and development already
white cobalt
She was hired because she knew about Omnics, this sound like the last member to join OW
peak escarp
I'm sure there will be people with "Liao is alive" theories
placid fulcrum
can hardly blame them, I'd rather have liao as a hero than echo. her backstory and character is far more intriguing
peak escarp
I disagree
Liao would be a boring hero
what would she even do? at best she's be another Torbjorn
placid fulcrum
robot waifu finding herself is an anime cliche, kind of tired of it
white cobalt
Echo is the science fiction trope of an existencialist robot: Who are they? what is their place in the world? Do they have a personality or just a bunch of code? or like "Do androids dream of electric sheep?"
placid fulcrum
we already have bastion and orisa for it
white cobalt
Orisa and Bastion AI is less polished than Echo.
placid fulcrum
doesn't matter. same character arc
exotic torrent
at least Liao isnt a unknown name anymore
placid fulcrum
hence why overwatch has too many characters. hard to keep them original
exotic torrent
look league of legends
white cobalt
Overwatch in general is a lot of tropes and pop culture references.
placid fulcrum
yup
white cobalt
Rein and Brig are the archetypes of don Quixote.
exotic torrent
i think we need a monster-like-villain
like
something not human
but not robot or omnic as well
to be evil
like a monster
peak escarp
why
iron plume
...no
exotic torrent
or a komodo dragon
peak escarp
there is no magic in Overwatch
placid fulcrum
it's not a universe with magic or dragons
iron plume
except for those ones
placid fulcrum
yeah
placid fulcrum
except those ones that we are collectively pretending aren't there for the sake of immersion
exotic torrent
the "atrocious/evil/unrational/atrocity archeotype of character
peak escarp
Roadhog
exotic torrent
not really a monster or a mythical creature
peak escarp
Reaper
placid fulcrum
you mean a mindlessly evil beast?
exotic torrent
yes
peak escarp
we have those two as "monstrous" characters
last inlet
And others with pretty bad morals
exotic torrent
yes
last inlet
I guess Junk and Moira
placid fulcrum
they're not mindless
exotic torrent
i think as well we should get another evil organization
peak escarp
we did
last inlet
I mean, a truly mindless monster would be boring too
peak escarp
we got Null Sector
peak escarp
we dont need more
exotic torrent
null sector is too ominicish
last inlet
It's literally all omnics
exotic torrent
yea
last inlet
omnic-ish
last inlet
They can barely focus on the two big ones they have
exotic torrent
null sector isnt a big one
last inlet
what
peak escarp
Null Sector is the primary antagonist of OW2
last inlet
They're the main antagonist of the first Archives
exotic torrent
kek
last inlet
and another in OW2 yeah
exotic torrent
we have no character related to them
why u talking about OW2
if it isnt launched yet
last inlet
a Leader was revealed in Storm Rising
We're talking about it because it's relevant and we know enough about it
exotic torrent
not at the point that isnt space for another organization
exotic torrent
?
last inlet
What did that mean
exotic torrent
that there is a lot more evil philosophy to explore in this universe
to the point that other organizations are needed
last inlet
I think we gotta deal with at least one of those two before getting into another
It'd be stale otherwise
peak escarp
Mauga is still on the table
exotic torrent
would love to see mauga
last inlet
People really want Junkerqueen still for some reason
last inlet
same
peak escarp
Junker Queen is popular, but I think they'll use her as a boss
last inlet
A bad guy omnic would be welcome
last inlet
playable anyway
exotic torrent
ye
thorn ibex
The next hero should be a pro-Null Sector omnic imo.
I'd like to know what would they think about omnics like Zen.
mossy crater
Like a reverse zen?
But a tank
But ow 2 is gonna be a lot of destroying omnics so I don’t see why they should release someone like that
peak escarp
pliant sparrow
Omnic leaders will probably exist
thorn ibex
@mossy crater what do you mean?
mossy crater
In overwatch 2 there are gonna be a lot of pve and it’s essentially gone be killing omnics I think
grand wedge
oh, so it's a complete different VA than we thought...
nice for them to let us know her VA
thorn ibex
Yeah but there'll surely be some lore in there
Maybe even some cutscenes
Plus multiple heroes will be released with OW2
I could be completely wrong though...
mossy crater
Nahh there must be an evil omnics
dapper thicket
Is it just me or does Echo's in-game voice sound noticeably different than her voice in Reunion and Zero Hour? Can't tell if her current VA is new, if Echo's accent was retconned, or if I'm just crazy
iron plume
It's a new VA
peak escarp
yeah
tame osprey
where did echo cone from
limpid agate
Liao built her
last inlet
Is that one of the VAs from previous vids?
Oh it's not
Dang, the others might've been busy
echo gate
so, is echo capable of human emotions?
last inlet
Hard to say. She's got advanced AI that's designed to adapt and learn
She picked up on Liao's mannerisms and such
Maybe that was Liao's goal
peak escarp
she can probably imitate them well enough
echo gate
maybe she’s just replicating emotions
peak escarp
but really, aren't we all?
echo gate
well, ig all emotions are just chemical reactions
not that different from codes and wires
peak escarp
I mean, babies learn emotions by observing the reactions of people around them
Echo is the same
echo gate
i think they learn what emotions are but fundamentally emotions are a survival skill
like when we haven’t eaten for a long time and take a bite of a burger our brain releases dopamine
so we build a connection
tasty food=good feeling
at least that’s how my science teacher explained it
peak escarp
robots in OW don't have the chemical feeling, but they can learn to associate certain reactions with certain triggers, therefore they can understand and mimic emotions
tears + frown + shaky voice = sad
etc.
bronze tapir
i just dont talk at all
drowsy fern
ok
peak escarp
the only omnic we have that doesn't really understand emotions is Bastion, probably
last inlet
And that's still just "probably"
last inlet
He was designed to be a war bot, doesn't have much in the way of communication, but at least has personality now
After he woke up
frosty shell
And Bastion seems to have some enjoyment for exploring
frosty elbow
doesn't torb treat bastion like one of his baby robots ?
lofty charm
k
hasty surge
What does torb do to his baby robots?
hollow hatch
where does storm rising fall in the chronology?
peak escarp
6 years ago
for reference, Uprising was 7 years ago and Overwatch was shut down 5 years ago
pure snow
Reinhardt hasn't met Lucio yet according to OW2's interaction when Reinhardt says to Tracer and Mei, "We're getting aboard that ship with our new friend, uh...?" He looks off to Lucio as if he's never met him before, even though there are interactions in OW1 where Reinhardt and Lucio have had conversation multiple times during intermission parts of rounds
peak escarp
the OW1 interactions aren't canon
pure snow
Some of them are
peak escarp
they don't represent actual conversations
they're more like hypothetical conversations
pure snow
Tracer and Winston's conversation ab the Chronal Accelerator is canon
worthy rose
Yea but Tracer talking mean to Sombra isn't Canon
Most of the characters in the game don't know who Sombra is but have interactions with them
it's not an indicator of actual canon or not
drowsy fern
um ok
hasty surge
I suggest to shift it to #overwatch
placid fulcrum
Babies don't learn emotions, emotions are bio-chemical reactions inside our bodies, they are involuntary, not learned.
But Overwatch was never particularly realistic, so I'd be surprised if robots had no emotions there
Bastion appears to exhibit emotional reactions
Orisa and Zen's voices tend to be impassive, but that doesn't mean they're completely incapable of feeling things
Zen talks about missing Mondatta, so there's that
last inlet
Eh, maybe they were programmed to have feelings as closely as Omnica could replicate
They have really good AI, to the point where you could just call it I
worthy rose
Are we expecting Sojourn to just have a ton of cybernetics equipped?
timid eagle
Yep. As it was implied in Storm Rising, Sojourn is a cyborg (not unlike Genji).
foggy notch
@placid fulcrum babies absolutely learn emotions. Thats what differs normal people from psychopaths. They can distinguish scared, angered, sad and happy faces from each other. Otherwise they would just be robots like in terminator.
placid fulcrum
wrong
emotions are natural, they are not learned. psychopaths have different brain structures. you can't teach emotions to a psychopath, you can only teach them to fake them (though psychopaths do feel and distinguish emotions, they just have something that allows them to "turn off" empathy)
look up the studies on facial expressions of blind infants
also, look up actual studies on psychopaths, not pop culture stuff
also, there's a reason depression exists. and meds for it. and things like post-partum depression and psychosis in women, who have just given birth. Or why teenagers react more strongly than adults. Emotions are chemical, you can't learn them, can't unlearn them, the best you can do is try to keep them under control or use drugs to induce the production of more positive chemicals.
in rela life, a robot can never feel emotions. but overwatch isn't real life, so I beleive they can
btw, those bots in practice range claim they saw a white light when mercy rezzes them
so the Nepal monks have a point when they claim they have souls\
iron plume
A robot can't feel emotions for the same reason as humans do, but a sufficiently advanced one would absolutely be able to experience essentially indistinguishable things
placid fulcrum
no, they won't. they can only be programmed to react positively to certain stimuli, that's not the same as feeling things
iron plume
yes it is
feelings are biological programming
dictated by the structure of our brain
placid fulcrum
again let me bring up the alice ina red room thought experiment
and the alice ina chinese room
also simple biology: bugs don't have the nervous structure that allows for the feeling of pain. a bug will still squirm if you put a needle into it, because it has the nervous structure to detect and react to being prickled. but it's not going to feel it the same way a human feels being prickled with a needle
iron plume
...okay?
placid fulcrum
a robot can be programmed to react to certain things, but it will never have a full human experience
iron plume
what does that have to do with robots
how do you know that
a sufficitently advanced system may well outpace the complexities of human feelings
as opposed to just reacting to stimuli
unless you believe in a soul or something like that
placid fulcrum
because it's literally my job. I work in software developmemt and automation.
iron plume
so do I
I'm not talking about an ERP system or a car builder robot
obviously none of the ones right now have anything approaching that
placid fulcrum
how would you design it then? an emotion in a robot with a full human experience?
how would you design a rest to determine that it's working?
iron plume
but to say that no artificially created system, no matter how advanced it is, will be able to recreate a human experience, is a bit silly
again, unless you believe in something unique to humans like a soul
placid fulcrum
there's a limit to technology
iron plume
you wouldn't "design" a complex robot
you'd let it learn
placid fulcrum
a lot of human biological structures are on a subatomic level. computers don't work on that level
iron plume
no they're not what
iron plume
hm
interesting if true
the second part about computers not working on it is only true for now though
placid fulcrum
while I'm sure there must exist a way of emulating it, our technology is based on the assumption that everything can be brought down to a 0-1 state. that's not the case on the quantum level, where all states can exist simultanously. we'd have to completely change the way we approach designing systems in order to fit in with that model. but that's a talk for another time and place. in overwatch, souls do seem to exist, and robots have them
iron plume
our technology is based on the assumption that everything can be brought down to a 0-1 state
our current technology, yes
halcyon radish
wait
grand wedge
(don't fight over a sci-fi robot learning from its creator ^^; )
halcyon radish
why the fuck do omnics hate humans again
grand wedge
because they are their slaves?
halcyon radish
o wait were they
iron plume
I'm surprise you're not aware of quantum computing
halcyon radish
im not too caught up on my omnic lore
placid fulcrum
robots don't have human rights in msot countries
grand wedge
have no rights in some countries (like England)
placid fulcrum
quantum computing is severly limited
halcyon radish
rip, nvm i guess
iron plume
now
placid fulcrum
but again, that's a talk for another time
iron plume
it's severely limited now
halcyon radish
i do wish omnics were more respected
iron plume
i'm not talking about the youtube algorithm or Alexa having feelings
iron plume
You're claiming that no AI would be able to
which is at best stretchy
halcyon radish
o hell yea
iron plume
in Paris there's tensions
placid fulcrum
even if they could emulate it, it would be difficult to test if their experience is genuinely simialr to the humane exprience
grand wedge
But there are Omnics owning business so it's better than London ^^
iron plume
so it's a bit less than fine
there's an Omnic underground organization and apparently someone's planning an attack on the signing of their rights
halcyon radish
or do they all have induvial personalities like other regular omnics
iron plume
You're already coming at it with the presumption that they're not real
of course if you assume it in the first place you'll say "well that's just not that"
grand wedge
Well - French Revolution is a pretty popular theme worldwide I guess? (i'm french so i may be biased on that)
iron plume
it would be difficult to test
it's pretty difficult to test humans on that too, so
placid fulcrum
all the more reason to doubt that in a machine
iron plume
might as well doubt humans too then
placid fulcrum
but again - it's offtopic
grand wedge
the whole "Maison Marat" is a hint at at the French revolution - the pmainting of "La liberté guidant le peuple" on the wall
placid fulcrum
we could talk about it for hours, lol
grand wedge
@halcyon radish yeah, they believe they have souls so they are their own person
halcyon radish
ah
grand wedge
oh wait you were talking about Null sector? We don't know
halcyon radish
i think its a bit weird theyve never humanized the null sector omnics
placid fulcrum
if you want we can have that discussion in full
iron plume
things aren't so smooth going there as the rights agreement is only starting to get signed
I would rather do literally anything else
halcyon radish
while a lot of their actions are unforgivable its still like.
grand wedge
My bad I missread what you wrote
halcyon radish
understandable why they are so pissed off
placid fulcrum
I just don't want Jewvia to give us a warning for non-lore related spamming
halcyon radish
but in most scenes with them theyre just being shown with big gun and shoot shoot
iron plume
If you want a non-Numbani example of a place where omnics and humans do well together, the US seems pretty good on that front
halcyon radish
at least with talon even tho theyre assholes too they still get humanized
iron plume
Hollywood has famous Omnic actors and directors, and we've seen omnics in Deadlock
grand wedge
But we don't know how much the "army bots" have their own thoughts
their own personnality
or if they are controlled
I mean, it took years for some omnics to stray from their original programming (I think? not sure )
iron plume
"I was just following orders" didn't do so well last time
placid fulcrum
I feel like the original omnics might have had a hivemind
we can see bastion looking up memories of the other bastions, and it visibly seemed to have an effect on him. he was fully prepared to continue the attack on the city, before the bird snapped him out of it
grand wedge
or were reprogrammed to kill
bastion seems to "forget" its programm until it read the dead bastion on the battlfield
placid fulcrum
hte devs are very careful to point out that liao was not the only person working on the omnics. sure, torb was there too, but so were many unnamed people. one of them may have had less than kind motives
grand wedge
but then snap out of his programming again
the omnium closed
so there was no humans inside to reprogrammed them i suppose
but the omniums were automated
we don't know what really happened here
placid fulcrum
someone could have sneaked in
grand wedge
yeha
halcyon radish
are null sector omnics redeemable
grand wedge
hack - self awareness of the omniums - people wanting a global war...
it could be a lot of possibilities
placid fulcrum
I just don't buy that omnics turned evil just because and then good just because again. maybe there has always been good and bad omnics, just the good ones were killed or supressed by the bad ones before they ever left the omnium. or maybe some former Omnica worker was angry at their life's work being shut down like this, and deliberately reprogrammed the omnics to be killing machines as a revenge against the world
halcyon radish
i dont think omnics should be generalized
like "they all turned evil at once" makes em seem like a hivemind
rather than induvials
placid fulcrum
speaking of the null sector... they are a curious bunch. originally I thought they were just fighting for their rights, but it seems that they attacked when things were going in the right direction. they're more like terrorists than freedom fighters
halcyon radish
eh i think theyre just an extreme riot group
even irl when stuff seems sorted out theres still gonna be a group of ppl pushing for it more and more and go to the limit for it
placid fulcrum
the bastions do seem like a hivemind though. orisa prototypes, too. zenyatta implies that orisa's mind is unformed, despite her being an improved version of OR15
halcyon radish
yea
but i think the newer and more advanced null sector omnics def have some sort of personality
placid fulcrum
which of course makes you wonder how was zen's mind formed
halcyon radish
blizzard are just cowards and havent made any of them actual characters till recently in the storm rising update
still wack we have 2 heros from outer space and not one null sector hero
placid fulcrum
I don't think courage plays a role in this. there just wasn't much lore in general
halcyon radish
dont worry im just joke joke
but i feel like null sector is starting to become as relevant in the lore as talon now
placid fulcrum
the orisa novel is a great opportunity to leanr more about how omnics think and function
halcyon radish
ooh
i will have to buy that for sure
orisa is very cute
for the longest time i thought she was a piloted robot and not her own character before i got into ow
kinda glad shes her own character cuz it helps to build more onto omnic lore and create more theories on how they all work
placid fulcrum
don't want to be another "more zen lore pls" person here, but I feel like we could learn a lot more about the omnics from him than from orisa. but it would also take away some of the mystery that makes them interesting
iron plume
I don't know about that
we'd know more about Iris
but orisa gives us more about their workings and their interactions with humans
halcyon radish
isnt iris echo now
iron plume
...no
halcyon radish
wait what
iron plume
Iris is the subject of Shambali faith
halcyon radish
there was a character back in ye olden days of ow named iris who looked almost exactly like echo
placid fulcrum
as far as we know, zen may have been created in an omnium, while orisa was created by a human. so while orisa can tell us about human/omnic interactions, she probably can't give us an insight into how omnics operate, their goals, etc. both are interesting to learn
iron plume
Present-day lore would give us more about their operation from Orisa than from Zen
halcyon radish
when do omnics have their personalities established
iron plume
Zen was created 20 years ago and is long "grown up"
so unless they're doing yet more past stories we won't see that from Zen
placid fulcrum
not really no
iron plume
We'll have the goals and more about the religion
but with operation, an almost brand new omnic learning about herself is a much better vessel
placid fulcrum
I'm not interested in their mechanical operation. i'm interested in their society and goals, and what the hell keeps omniums in operation, why some omnium seems to create good omnics, and some bad ones. are they pre-programmed, or selected out?
iron plume
that's part of my point that you ignored
what can we learn about omniums from present zen
he's not been in one in decades
placid fulcrum
hm.. good point
iron plume
and in regards to 'society and goals', both Zen and Orisa have that, just from different sides
placid fulcrum
he could reminisce about it though
also, zen implies that he would be unwelcome back in nepal. that's pretty interesting
iron plume
don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some monk things
both about the religion in general and about zen's disagreement
but I do think we'll learn more about the omnics' place in general from orisa
halcyon radish
r u guys hyped for the null sector character that looks like he'll be a hero in the future
iron plume
eh
placid fulcrum
the description of the novle made it sound like ti will be more about efi than about orisa
placid fulcrum
learning the power of friendship, and stuff like that
whart are you saying, he's beautiful
he even has "hair" of sorts
placid fulcrum
come to think of it, so does Maximillien. I vote Max for the hottest omnic
halcyon radish
ok yea
max is an extremely fine omnic i love him
but the null sector omnic at the end of the storm rising storymode is just. meh. dont care for his design
i would like more robotic omnics than human tbh
and ones that just dont go "doo doo wee woo wee" like bastion and you cant tell what the fuck hes saying ever
placid fulcrum
well, each to their own, i perosnally love his design
halcyon radish
and thats ok bro
i just dont vibe with it but
im hoping we have more than 1 null sector hero in the future
placid fulcrum
agreed
halcyon radish
and it might happen so its not too big of a deal
placid fulcrum
I'd be very disappointed if there isn't even one null sector on the hero roster
halcyon radish
o god
id be so upset if the null sector dude was just an npc for future storymode
or like. a boss character
iron plume
Max is absolutely the hottest omnic
halcyon radish
god i love max despite how big of an asshole he is
placid fulcrum
I see you too are discordians of culture 😂
I hope max survives OW2. he seemed to be in a bit of a pinch there with doomfist in the trailer
and he's a robot, so he die a horrible death and the rating won't suffer for it
placid fulcrum
ouch
halcyon radish
also orisa is like
awful rn
besides double shielding with sigma i wouldnt pick her
placid fulcrum
welp. unfortuante, but not really lore-related. she's supposed to be able to protect an entire city by herself in the lore, so I imagine she's canonically one of the most powerful heroes
placid fulcrum
do you guys think that the event that got echo to be declared too dangerous to continue working may have been the same event that got reinhardt kicked from the strike team and overwatch in general?
since he was the leader of the strike team, and echo would've been his subordinate on the missions
the developer video says that echo wasn't shelved immediately after liao's death, but later on
lilac pecan
Was it an event? I thought it was just public pressure that got rein retired and Echo shelved
placid fulcrum
there are theories that rein was fired after a mission went wrong
iron plume
the public pressure was the end of overwatch
both Rein and Echo's "retirements" came after inciting incidents but not directly
Rein after a mission failure and Echo after the Liao attack
placid fulcrum
not after liao attack
alpine jackal
no one knows why rein had to "retire"
but its hinted that he didnt just retire either
placid fulcrum
developer update video claims she was still working for a while after liao's death. we don't know what happened to change that
alpine jackal
reins retirement is probably gonna be found out in OW2
Hope its not revealed he did something terrible
doubt it tho
reins got a heart of gold
placid fulcrum
i hope so too
alpine jackal
probs OW doing stupid shit again
placid fulcrum
yup
alpine jackal
and blaming rein to get heat off them
placid fulcrum
this\
worthy rose
id imagine theyre gonna be content with having rein kill his own mentor
worthy rose
I mean if you do basic analysis
You look at Rein's behavior, Torb and Brig's behavior, and then look at Jack's behavior.
Torb and Brig are furious about something involving Overwatch and Reinhardt and blame Overwatch for it.
Rein truly never seems bothered by it but withholds probably the true secret of it all or never explained what really happened.
Jack has been shown he tries to be fair but tensions have escalated since Uprising and after Retribution he's had to keep a tighter leash around the agents.
Sombra liking to keep all the cards and information implies that it was in fact something Reinhardt did.
These factors to me coalesce into something Reinhardt himself did something on the field that he truly believed was right while against Overwatch's interest. Jack, never really one to have sacrificial pawns and likely under public and executive pressure, had to dishonorably discharge Reinhardt to the public in a fake or other story which Reinhardt very likely agreed to take the fall for even if Jack agreed with Reinhardt's acts or decisions. Brig and Torb only know the publicly told version of the Story but not the true story that Rein has, likely because he keeps it close by request of Jack.
placid fulcrum
that sounds accurate
the question remains - what could reinhardt possibly have done that the public switched from regarding him as a hero to a villain after so many years of faithful service
we're talkign about reinhardt here. the guy who's all about HONOR AND GLORY
lilac pecan
I imagine it’d have to be something gruesome like straight up killing someone or destroying something in order to achieve a mission and have a lot of innocent casualties
placid fulcrum
that doesn't sound like rein, that sounds like reyes
rein would rather abandon the mission to protect the civilians. be their shield
even if it means losing something vital
worthy rose
If anything; I'd take a guess of Overwatch was there to stop an omnic threat by a city or something, Reinhardt went in, and learned that the omnics weren't evil or whatever, just normal people and then helped them escape much to the anger of the people who asked overwatch to come in and get rid of the omnic menace
limpid agate
@stuck venture No advertising
peak escarp
it says so in Echo's bio
white cobalt
Oh first line, yep.
peak escarp
people have noticed that Echo does use a bit of Singlish
white cobalt
i wouldnt catch that slang tbh, i thought it was some onomatopeia or something.
hasty surge
but both Echo and Liao didn't have that Singaporean accent tho
probably cause they did not cast a Singaporean VA
last inlet
They only needed Liao's voice for a little while
And Echo isn't technically Singaporean
vagrant smelt
Why did Liao give Echo a shit ton of weapons?
peak escarp
why not?
vagrant smelt
peace through superior firepower\
zenith prawn
Are Omnics sentient? Is Echo sentient?
limpid agate
You tell me.
vagrant smelt
how does one determine sentience of another though?
gray frost
Who is the omnic at the end of the storm rising success cutscene
timid eagle
@vagrant smelt The question of determining whether an Artificial Intelligence is sentient has been a question philosophers, writers, and such have been debating for hundreds of years.
With artificial intelligence, it seems like we have all the problems of identifying sentience in animals, as robots are very different creatures from ourselves. Even in cases where robots manage to act in ways similar to us (like playing chess), the way they go about performing these actions is very different from the way we do it.
If our machines become sentient (or gain something that is a close approximation of sentience), we would owe them moral consideration - particularly given that we brought them into existence and thus are responsible for their fate than if we were mere bystanders. On par with other responsibilities that come with the creation of strong artificial intelligence, then, comes the responsibility of refining our abilities to detect sentience.
But, in the case of Overwatch's universe...
It's something that the overall public and populace of the world are trying to solve.
And are not going at it with the most grace.
peak escarp
isn't that every animate creature?
limpid agate
Mostly
peak escarp
the ones with senses, at least
peak escarp
my cellphone isn't animate
limpid agate
Omnics are sentient
Because they are capable of perception
Just watch the Last Bastion.
With how it reacts to Ganymede, rain, lakes, woodpeckers, etc.
civic tapir
they can have vietnamese flashbacks
white cobalt
Echo first designs, by Arnold Tsang.
the stuff come from this post https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/flv674/transcript_of_alphacasts_interview_with_renaud/
echo gate
happy they went with their current ones
can’t imagine that ^ speaking with echoes voice
limpid agate
I hope we get a skin without the human face
white cobalt
I hate this kind of bits When asked if Liao's dead, or "dead" like other heroes were, the answer was "we'll see, i don't know if they found the body... No honestly I have no idea".
limpid agate
Renaud doesn't know
No honestly I have no idea
He is the artist, not the story writer
But we have multiple other sources
Including Echo's bio and Jeff
Saying Liao is dead
We also see her die on screen
She's dead.
We don't need her body to be found. We've seen it. We found it.
white cobalt
Yes, but i mean i hate when they do comments like that if they dont know, just say it like "I dont have idea" instead going for 'i dont know if they found the body"
peak escarp
yeah same
white cobalt
Because that stuff gives a lot of misinterpretations and comes from a Blizz employee
peak escarp
this is how "they retconned Brigitte to be Torb's youngest" happens
because someone who wasn't part of the writing team gave an answer (and the community also misinterpreted that answer)
cunning bane
Do you guys remember Echo's first teaser with Liao saying she saw omnics claiming they "heard the music". If hearing the music of the universe supposedly breaks your free from physics, that could explain how zenyatta floats like sigma. Could also lead me to say Sigma is hearing the Iris, or maybe the Iris is the music of the universe, but Sigma loses his mind from hearing it, zen on the other hand doesnt lose his mind (well because he doesnt have one) but instead grows peace with it. Sigma's origin story also shows him with two different orbs, the orange orb (good side) and the purple orb (talon), kinda like zenyattas orbs.
i think i just solved zens lore, or maybe someone said this here already
pliant sparrow
Zen doesn't actually have orange and purple orbs as far as we know, and floating isn't the same as breaking free of physics, zen could very easily have a form of technology that allows him to float
Although I see your point
nocturne dove
In lore, who is the most powerful character so far?
cunning bane
But it could explain how sigma floats. I would say zen and sigma are veryrelated to the universe. We have seen omnics like zen who don't float so it would be weird to make zen the only one of his kind who can float. Just speculation tho
grand wedge
We know what Mercy think of Oasis now :
Mercy : No thank you. You and your colleagues discredit the field of science. I want nothing to do with it.```@nocturne dove Well, doomfist i suppose. IN LORE. but we don't really know how sigma is strong when out of control, but i suppose he is also very strong
grand wedge
In lore, Sigma is in a Lab somewhere (and that somewhere is probably with Moira in Oasis)
teal meadow
@grand wedge where is that interaction from?
teal meadow
did they add new interactions?
teal meadow
so does this mean echo also have interactions?
grand wedge
they often add that after - along the patches
placid fulcrum
I cna test the others
but I'd need help, can't do this alone
or I could rip the sound files, if there are tools available somewhere on the internet
I have lots of time
placid fulcrum
hm... I'm using datatool, but this line isn't under mercy's hero lines
unless they're stored elsewhere
grand wedge
I’ve got someone working on it - and maybe Overwatch Interactions will find those soon
placid fulcrum
great!
pliant sparrow
In terms of lore, sigma, reaper and winston are all up there
Maybe echo but we haven't seen much of her
worthy rose
is echo british
iron plume
no
As a robot she doesn't have a physical ethnicity, and her speech/quirks are taken from Liao who is Singaporean
cosmic crest
If Liao is from Singapore, then why does she have a British accent?
echo gate
maybe she wasn’t raised in singapore
i hope we get something moira wise
she has so much potential
placid fulcrum
damn
peak escarp
but if they have added new interactions, that's great
we haven't had new ones in ages
peak escarp
typical hero cycle is 2-3 weeks
placid fulcrum
hm... oh well
peak escarp
Jeff said she might be delayed because of the health crisis and the fact that she's buggy
placid fulcrum
is it possible to create custom games in ptr, and if so, do the hero interactions work there?
is there any way to trigger them?
we can test manually for now
grand wedge
I triggered the Mercy/Moira one by playing a game in custom with a friend and force the game to start
placid fulcrum
two people are enough? I could test with a freind if so
peak escarp
yeah custom games work
you can do it with AI, although there are a limited number of heroes that have AI available
placid fulcrum
awesome! thanks
peak escarp
I could help you if you want
placid fulcrum
sure 🙂 DM