At work point she’s going to discover the talon connections in vishkar, realize they’re causing war and chaos, and defect, probably to over watch through lucio
#lore-discussion
peak escarp
maybe
I would love to see Symmetra's arc
I think she might already suspect that Vishkar isn't as good as she was led to believe
reef dagger
I have to admit, I am slightly annoyed at what Overwatch 2 seems to be doing with the story
I mean, I understand that they can't have a game if the heroes don't have problems they can shoot at by the dozen
But, a lot of the lore up to this point has been showing off how there's a lot more nuance to the issues of the world, issues which Winston wants to tackle, somehow
I mean, there's humanitarian crises, criminal gang rule, manipulative corporations, environmental pressures, and that's on top of Omnic wars, supervillains in giant Mecha, evil AIs, multi-national terrorist organizations and interwoven conspiracies
And a bitter post-war zeitgeist that has left much of the world fractured
It's just a little odd that now, it's just lotsa Null Sector drones and lotsa Talon mooks, and if we shoot enough of them, maybe that'll fix everything
marble wigeon
I mean we've only had one trailer/gameplay thing so far
I'm hoping the hero missions are a more street level type of thing, I would expect sombra and soldier to both have some kind of mission with los muertos
reef dagger
We shall see
I wonder if Blizzard would be hesitant on that, though
Null Sector are robots, and Talon are highly anonymous gasmasked goons with disguised voices and are pretty inhuman all around
But, shooting more obvious humans in droves might be considered risky for the content rating if the game
(that said, the game is all about shooting very sympathetic characters and it still has a teen rating so, it probably wouldn't be)
I suspect new enemy factions would make for good post-launch updates
Like, a Junkertown mission (you could rip off half of Borderlands for enemy designs), or Vishkar security forces (with a level that opens up new paths and obstacles around you)
(and turrets behind every door)
Or, say, Helix Security Forces for bad guys to fight
And, of course the Siberian front (or perhaps the onnics made a significant push or an infiltration)
Ooh, the Deadlock gang would be neat too. I loved their designs in the short.
worthy rose
😀
covert glacier
weird question... where does it say Gerard Lacroix died?
limpid agate
!!loreHeroes widowmaker
twilit nacelleBOT
To learn more, please visit https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/widowmaker#story
limpid agate
@covert glacier
Or, say, Helix Security Forces for bad guys to fight
I think Helix would be the optimal 3rd force to fight
As they would oppose both Talon and Overwatch
covert glacier
right... I thought it only alluded to that in the comics...
my point was more it never actually said in the material he died, just implied
that sorta clears it up
darn my theory
limpid agate
Its implied he died between Retribution and Uprising.
covert glacier
yeah, thats my curiosity
implied... is weird
especially the way ana talks in her one with soldier
'poor Gerard' as though he's heartbroken, not dead
its odd
seems like a convenient plothole to me
limpid agate
Its not a plothole
Gerard is dead in Widow's bio
Its "implied" because we didnt see the murder and werent told in the comic "Gerard is dead"
We were told "Overwatch Official is dead" underneath a screen with screenshots of Widowmaker gameplay
Which implies that the "Overwatch Official" is Gerard - Who was said to be killed in Widowmaker's bio.
You are misinterpreting what I meant by implied.
You think I meant "They implied he died"
What I meant was "They implied he died"
In the comics
But we know he died.
Its just the timing that is the mystery, and is implied to be before Uprising
covert glacier
fair enough, i just wondered after reading the comics again recently
limpid agate
Lots of things arent in the comics
peak escarp
the bios need to be available in the game somewhere
too many people miss the basic info found in the bios
limpid agate
!!lfg @weak meadow
twilit nacelleBOT
If you are looking for people to play with, check out the various LFG channels:
PC: #lfg-pc-na-ranked
#lfg-pc-eu-ranked#lfg-pc-oce-asia
CONSOLE: #185665683009306625#lfg-console-ranked#633536790225092608
placid sonnet
is genji faster then tracer or something
in the game there is so many people commenting on genji's speed specifically
marble wigeon
Well doesnt tracer train against him in the uprising comic?
She does teleport, I think it’s just different kinds of speed
placid sonnet
she does train against him
they spar
but ana, mcree, and others comment on his speed
in the game, im starting to think his REALLY fast
grand wedge
he has prosthetics legs so... he may be pretty fast yeah
covert glacier
I'd read that previously in the bios, but had a moment of 'is this actually the case' call it writers curiosity
worthy rose
Game play doesnt equal canon
In game both genji and tracer have the same speed which iirc is both faster than every other character except for lucio for obvious reasons
In canon we never see a difference in speed unless you wanna go and do pixel measurements of genji’s jump and force vs Tracer’s run and jump abilities
grand wedge
His « dash » in dragon is quite fast, a bit like Tracer’s « blink ».... as for actual running speed in canon, I’d say Genji is faster : he is a Ninja she is a pilot after all ...
pliant sparrow
He's cybernetically enhanced, of course he's fast
bright edge
Genji is really well trained, he has really good reaction time (deflecting arrows), and he is really damn fast. He was trained as Yakuza assassin just like hanzo, but thanks to cybernetics he probably can exceed limits of human body
dusty cairn
who do you think is faster tho
lucio speed boostio , Hammond , Sprint soldier
or genji and tracer
frosty shell
In lore Lucio might not have speed boost
valid terrace
He has the skates so he’s probably still fast
Also he challenges Tracer to a race im pretty sure
zenith prawn
Interactions aren’t cannon.
valid terrace
They relate to canon things generally
It doesn’t necessarily mean he has speed boost, but it implies he is fast in universe
Or just very confident
It’s in the same vein as Zarya and Reinhardt’s arm wrestling obsession
It wouldn’t be there unless they both thought they could win
valid terrace
Arguably less fast than Genji matching speeds of Tracer’s personal bicycle
We haven’t seen many other fast characters in lore
Except D.Va I guess
iron plume
motorbike
but that’s a good point
Genji’s most likely faster because he took shortcuts
mercy on the other hand
peak escarp
Mercy can fly pretty fast
timid eagle
Well, who’s the fastest character without cybernetic enhancements?
worthy rose
I mean Tracer has super powers
Winston is a gorilla
Soldier sprints and is a super soldier same with reaper
Sombra runs
mercy can fly with her suit but I imagine you mean without the suit
Doomfist has a rocket arm machine
Orisa is a horse centaur
robot thing
zen floats
stark prism
did blizzard remove the numbani map on quick and comp?,
iron plume
no
also not for this channel
stark prism
oops
pliant sparrow
Reaper seems to move pretty fast when as a 'wraith'
tulip terrace
Isnt he supposed to b able to fly when wraithing (at least from one trailer it looks that way
peak escarp
kinda
pliant sparrow
I think that when he jumps and wraiths he weighs much less as its spread out, could cause him to sink to the ground much slower
limpid agate
He appears to become gaseous
And assuming he follows the laws of physics
His mass doesn't change, so his body is less dense
pliant sparrow
that's what I meant but I couldn't be bothered to go complex
frosty shell
My biggest question with Reaper is how he can think when his brain becomes a cloud
peak escarp
its science fiction - it works because it does
vestal marlin
Reaper slips through air vents and proceeds to shotgun the whole enemy team from an ac vent
spiral yarrow
How will blizzard short comics and animated shorts still make sense with ow2’s remodels coming to ow1 aswell, because the base character (also displayed in the shorts and comics) will be changed. And 2). When does ow2 take place? Because we are 7 years in the future of the fall of ow1
lament prawn
OW2 takes place a year after recall, and the redesigns are canon. jeff compared the redesigns to the various different iron man suits you see in movies - they're all canon and recognizable, just with small differences to mark the new chapter
it also does make sense considering overwatch is being recalled and they're prepping gear again
worthy rose
wheredo you guys think mccree is going?
do you think he's looking to do what 76 and ana are doing
aka hunting down talon members
or do you think he's off to do his own, mysterious thing that we'll soon find out about in OW2?
if this has been answered then can someone tell me
it probably hasn't
spiral yarrow
Thanks @lament prawn
pliant sparrow
Could be that reaper degrades to a less intelligent state when he splits, but he still gets around through touch
alpine knoll
Fr ?
pine slate
I still don’t get the sigma lore I really don’t understand it I’ve watched the vid thing over and over and I have no clue what any of it means can someone fill me up?
peak escarp
he's an astrophysicist who did an experiment to control a black hole - it backfired and left him psychologically damaged, and able to manipulate gravity
when he returned to earth, he was locked away in a secret government facility until Talon broke in and stole him
now Talon uses him and keeps him locked away in a private lab
vestal marlin
And theres theories Sigma has no idea what hes actually doing, hes very open to suggestion.
Okay real talk: Doomfist struggled against Tracer, Genji, AND Winston?
vestal marlin
But how could Winston be an equal match?
Even primal winston?
I get hes probably jacked on steroids + his gorilla strength, and his intelligence helps too. But its said Doomfist could level skyscrapers with ease, so wouldnt that fight be like a cat vs a rat?
vestal marlin
Fair
peak escarp
it could just be part of his legend
vestal marlin
Idk, if he can break down a cement, like 1 foot thick wall with a few punches I believe it
The actually fist just added to his already super crazy damage
peak escarp
maybe Winston going primal surprised him enough that Winston could get the upper hand?
worthy rose
confusion can lead to deconcentration
peak escarp
even without genetic enhancement, a gorilla is still extremely strong
worthy rose
maybe winston going primal caught him off guard
vestal marlin
Another theory: what if mercy can rez because she steals the souls of those who die near here
And that's why she would work as a field medic
peak escarp
Mercy doesn't literally resurrect people
nor can she steal souls
canon "rez" looks like this:
Mercy works as a field medic because she's a genuinely good person and a gifted doctor who just wants to help people
vestal marlin
But what if
iron plume
especially not for the worst kind of fan fiction
opaque tundra
I'm pretty sure he actually did die
Or maybe he was near death
Or Hanzo just didn't even bother to check if Genji was still alive
worthy rose
He was near death
Hanzo was sure he killed him but mercy saved him at the brink of death
Mercy's technology is powerful but it's not bring back the dead powerful
And even then he still needed his cybernetics
peak escarp
the only hero who has died and come back is Orisa
maybe you can argue for Bastion
but that OR15 was pretty much destroyed by Doomfist before Efi rebuilt it and gave it a personality
valid terrace
Technically doctors can revive the dead even today, just not after long periods of time or from serious injuries
If your heart stops beating you are considered medically dead
So if Mercy can heal the body fast enough and resuscitate before brain death, then it could be considered a ‘canon rez’
But there’s no telling if that’s past the limits of the technology or if Genji was even that far gone to begin with
worthy rose
I mean Hanzo was responsible for the loss of his limbs with severe blood loss and god knows whatever else
so it's doctor save
not "Alright time to just give you new life again"
valid terrace
We honestly still know little of the limits of her nanobiotic technology
For all we know Rez could be as viable as in the games but there’s currently no examples of it being so
worthy rose
Hence why we're sticking with the "It's not canon"
Unless shown or told to us, it's safer to say it's not canon
valid terrace
I was just trying to point out that just because it’s less magical than in the game, she would still be able to bring back the dead
Medically speaking
Even if it was just with a good ol defibrillator
mystic salmon
I'm in the middle of making an overwatch fanfic and I have a question about Hammond.
How big would you describe him in canon?
Big bunny sized or average house cat sized?
worthy rose
He's like big bunny size probably
echo gate
somethings been bothering me for a while
what does me mean when he says “they want me, but they need you”
to echo
limpid agate
Hammond is said to be "Pikachu Sized"
limpid agate
@echo gate McCree has a very low opinion of himself
He's a vigilante with a huge bounty on his head.
Overwatch is a team of heroes.
He doesn't think of himself as a hero.
What he's doing is trying to make up for all the wrong he's done.
peak escarp
for the record, "Pikachu sized" is approximately 1'4"
pliant sparrow
That is one big hamster
shell jay
So Jeff said that Talon is using Sigma and his abilities but is Sigma aware of this and Talon being evil and all?
grand wedge
Talon is most likely using his research - they put him in a lab somewhere - he isn’t on the battlefield
And no he isn’t aware they are using him
shell jay
dah dah dum
peak escarp
Sigma is still a prisoner, just in a different prison
amber goblet
Does Lucio have prosthetic legs?
iron plume
no
shell jay
Would Sombra turn on Talon for her own personal need? Sombra wants power and we saw what she did with Katya Volskaya but would she betray them completely for power?
white panther
Probably, she seems to always be overlooked by talon
worthy rose
Absolutely she would
but why would she?
Talon is easily the organization with the farthest reach cause it doesn't play to any nation's sovereignty
shell jay
Wait nvm I know the answer to that
dire sundial
Have I missed anything new on the game?
vagrant jewel
.. lol
limpid agate
You need to be specific
Since when?
Miss anything since last month? No
Since last year? Yes
peak escarp
there'll probably be something in the next week or so, since LNY is coming up
shell jay
Do you think Sombra could hack omnics such as Orisa, Bastion, Zen, etc to do her bidding?
Shes such a mysterious character
And also do you think her real name is actually Olivia Colomar
limpid agate
She's hacked omnics
During her infiltration of Lumerico during the ARG, she hacked an omnic to follow her will
And then she hacked Lynx ti disable them
pliant sparrow
That's kind of scary
dusty wyvern
It is a little weird that sombra can't hack omnics in game
like making it stunt
since omnic = robot
naive mica
i have a question
shell jay
Yes @naive mica
limpid agate
Don't say you have a question. Just ask the question
raw nova
limpid agate
He's in Sweden with Torbjorn
worthy rose
He was in Sweden with Torb last time he appeared. It's entirely possible that they've gone on an adventure/the adventure has gone to them by the time of Zero Hour and we just haven't gotten the update yet.
limpid agate
In the OW2 gameplay trailer, they're still in Sweden
worthy rose
We don't know the final antagonist in overwatch
limpid agate
The current main villains are Doomfist and the unnamed leader of Null Sector
One of them is presumably the final antagonist
What else would it be? There are no aliens or gods to kill.
worthy rose
Aren't all of talon the antagonist, as well as null sector you mentioned?
lament prawn
considering how long OW is supposed to live on as a franchise, idk if the final antagonist would be doomfist
they might stick to the same protagonists but cycle through villains like phases of the MCU
worthy rose
I imagine the antagonist isn't doomfist but the ppl sombra trying to find
lament prawn
they would make a good second act, the ones that come after talon
they might be a little too closely related to somrba and the present in general to be that far off though
im talking like long term overwatch as a franchise, are OW and talon gonna run around in circles for a decade irl?
worthy rose
I imagine it wouldn't just be one side vs the other
you have one side vs the other
followed by individual stories
Sombra and the illuminati story arc affecting the world as the next potential big bad
then individual stories like going back to the moon and letting the apes establish an ape nation on the moon or killing them off/detaining them
lament prawn
the next big bad, after talon? or would talon still be around?
worthy rose
Next big bad after Talon
lament prawn
because looking at the mcu, they couldve just had this thanos thing going on for however long, but we had the satisfaction of seeing that arc completed and are moving on to the next thing
worthy rose
I imagine a couple years down the line
lament prawn
yeah i can see that happening
worthy rose
Talon will more or less be dismantled but have smaller factions
Some hard doomfist loyalist
some reaper or whoever loyalists
etc... etc...
while they are split they're not a harder power but no longer the super power they once were
lament prawn
i know we're very much far off, but what about hero deaths? we could have what... OW2 missions, a movie or two, a series, where stuff like that might be warranted. but OW the comp shooter, i imagine would still be around like tf2 and csgo, are we gonna be playing dead heroes? or is that version of OW gonna be dead entirely? (not that i mind if we have other OW game(s) where story is more prominent)
worthy rose
They said they wouldn't be against it
but
I don't see them actually doing it yet
If they do kill anybody it would be Soldier 76 if anybody
lament prawn
definitely not yet, but long term
this is all new to me, ive never been in the community of a long term franchise like this, the only stories i was ever into are films with one or two sequels and thats it
i hear about fans of franchises where said franchise has gone through countless studios with interchanging voice actors and everyones lost but never been a part of it
must be nice to have a constant flow of content instead of having to rewatch/replay dead movies/games though so you at least get to see something new with your favorite characters regardless of quality, hyped for that
valid terrace
The problem with OW, rather than games like WoW, is that most characters are playable in the game, rather than quest NPC’s that can be killed or swapped out
Killing a character in OW that is currently playable would be the equivalent of someone dying in your party in FF, but they’re still with you despite no longer living in lore
It would be easily doable, but bizarre and immersion disrupting
lament prawn
yeah i agree
they could do it in a bittersweet way where they acknowledge you're playing a character that is no longer with the rest through interactions or some sort of different animation in the hero select screen, but that doesnt have much place in a competitive environment
valid terrace
Neither do any of the emotes so that’s no biggie
lament prawn
true yeah there's a lot of emphasis on character appeal and design in the game but i imagine once OW2 becomes a thing they can shift that focus over to that game because theyre not limited to a competitive shooter anymore
dusty cairn
basically all playable overwatch characters are immune to death
but it's definitely possible tho
i can imagine if zenyatta died , he would just transcend into a higher state where he's always glowing like in his transcendence
to represent his "soul"
and then they would change his base skin to be that way
and they can add his older self as a free skin
pliant sparrow
That's a nice thought
valid terrace
They could always take the path of echo fighters and what not
Which Orisa essentially already is
Where a new character functions identically to an existing one but is different canonically
Like someone else taking up the mantle of Reinhardt or something similar
pliant sparrow
That's actually a cool idea
marble wigeon
There's not many characters who already have in universe replacements ready though
Maybe Sanjay could swap in for sym, and DVA has her teammates, but I'd also wager that they're among the least likely to be killed off
dusty cairn
tbh if anyone would die in overwatch it would be the side characters
because any character dying would upset alot of that character's mains and fans
and brig could never replace rein
having them both is good
dusty cairn
Gaze into the iris
shell jay
Do you think hanzo could be gay
His VA has a husband so its possible even though the VA has nothing to do w the character
limpid agate
It's unlikely.
opaque tundra
If there was going to be a hero death, it would have to be a very impactful character so that the death actually hurts
white panther
Winston if it’s gonna hurt
peak escarp
Reinhardt's death would hurt
white panther
Another sad one would be tracer, she’s like the only happy or cheerful character in the game rn
valid terrace
Mei?
shell jay
Mei got hurt in the short so 🤷🏽♂️
I feel like Soldier, Winston, or Reinhardt would be the most impactful, especially since it would probably be out of like a sacrifice for everyone else
worthy rose
I don’t think Winston would ever be killed off
I feel like Ana has probably the highest chance of biting the dust if it happened
orchid swan
if rein dies then jeff should drown in fart liquid
worthy rose
Winston and Tracer probably have the highest chance of survival
orchid swan
i wanna see Hanzo aid/ teamup with Genji, Reaper and Widow come good, also see more into what happened with reaper, moira, mercy, soldier and ana and how that pans out
worthy rose
I feel like Hanzo is definitely gonna be an ally in the story and might even end up joining who knows?
And Widow probably has the highest chance of redemption out of all the Talon characters
orchid swan
it'd be awesome if he got a story mode where he gets to finally redeem himself and assist overwatch and genji
yeah id love to see her knock back the training and brainwashing she received and then join Overwatch
worthy rose
Even though Doomfist is supposed to be Overwatch’s main villain, Reaper just works so much better
orchid swan
because in one of the comics you can see she visits Gerards grave which probably means she is still somewhat emotionally conscious
yeah true, but id like to see reaper return to OW again after a sudden event or something that makes him go back
worthy rose
Maybe the classic trope of “a worse villain appears so the good guys and bad guys gotta team up”?
orchid swan
yeah or something like that. like reaper starts to dislike doomfists and the higher echelons plans or new way of thinking and leaves to ally/rejoin them
worthy rose
Although I don’t think Overwatch would welcome him with open arms lol
orchid swan
yeah
valid terrace
Sigma is another candidate for swapping teams
marble wigeon
I’m still expecting a symm lucio team up to actually take down vishkar
Symm isn’t a fan of chaos and once she sees talon is working inside vishkar and they’re causing war that’s probably the part where she leaves
shell jay
I feel like they should make one of the archives events modeled after the battle they had at the Swedish Headquarters that resulted in Soldier and Reaper's "death"
grand wedge
It was the Swiss headquarters - but I'd love to know what really happened there. And if we do some past/archives missions in OW2 : I'd love to see some first Strike Team mission - when they were fighting durng the Omnic Crisis and shuting down Omniums
timber osprey
All of this is wrong
What does it have to do with zen
I would like if zen
That would be cool
Zen
Zen lore
Lore zen pls
devout sable
@grand wedge who'd be the medic tho
not to mention that Ana and Reaper's entire gameplay would be lore-inaccurate
placid fulcrum
Reaper already had his powers in the Retribution, so that's not a concern.
devout sable
sure
but he did not have them in the Omnic Crisis
which is what Gwadael was suggesting
grand wedge
@devout sable it's not about who is the medic or not - it's just that I want to see the old soldiers all together when they were young ^^ and we don't know who Liao was, so i'm guessing if there were a medic back then, it would be them
I feel that either Liao is dead or just didn't want to be part of Overwatch when it became a bigger thing after they won the war
placid fulcrum
Gwadael mentioned the swiss incident, they could do that
grand wedge
We don't know if they'll do duo/trio or six man missions yet in OW2
Only time would tell - but I still hope to see some kind of missions like this
placid fulcrum
Talon vs Overwatch teams in multiplayer would be interesting
grand wedge
for now - who know what they'll do with the Overwatch - they have plan for it for like 10-15 years
placid fulcrum
They said the same thing about WoW, and yet they're changing the lore dramatically on a patch-by-patch basis
Blizzard has always been very flexible when it comes to changes/improvements to lore and gameplay
Like how they cancelled the overwatch graphic novel because "the fans's imagination is better"
So we will most likely never get any definite answers to the key moment in overwatch lore
grand wedge
They canceled it because it would putt them in a corner and wouldn’t be able to change it after that without retcon. And when we see the errors they made with the early artworks with the characters age and stuff it’s better this way
But they’ve learn from their mistakes ^^
placid fulcrum
If they're scared of making any definite lore, because they already know they'll have to retcon it, then we will never get answers, or any missions relating to those key lore moments
grand wedge
They were scare then. I mean Rialto is a pretty key moment, same with London. That gave us those missions to understand what is going to happen in OW2.
But I see your point, this kind of missions would be more for the fanbase than moving the lore forward
And will likely never exist but I can dream about it!
placid fulcrum
They could always give us more lore related to the characters themselves, their relationships (not only romantic), etc.
placid fulcrum
Maybe in overwatch
grand wedge
I didn't say it happened - I said that if they decided not to publish First Strike because they woul'dnt be able to change the story afterwards without retconning
and when we see the art of it, with Rein already old - it's better they never published it!
placid fulcrum
Why change it though?
grand wedge
Because the fans had better headcanon than them? x)
limpid agate
Because the cover was, they were exactly the same for 30 years
placid fulcrum
The art is different from events
What happened in Switzerland is defining moment for Soldier, Reaper and pretty much every other Overwatch character. It should be something that's set in stone, it can't be something that not even the writers are sure what happened there
"Reaper was a loyal Overwatch agent, until one day he suddenly wasn't and also he's now vowed to hunt down every single ex-overwatch member, including his old friends and comrades. Also, he joined Talon, the very same organization he was fighting against. Why? Not even the writers know, he just did."
That's kinda... not good.
limpid agate
He blames Overwatch for leaving him to suffer in his condition
placid fulcrum
How's that Winston's fault? Tracers?
limpid agate
Probably not directly
placid fulcrum
Brigitte was a little child, would she even know what's going on?
grand wedge
How ddi he loose his arm? That's a story I want to hear! ( please Blizzard - give us a short story about McCree!)
limpid agate
Brig isn't an ally of Rein or Torb or Genji?
limpid agate
He was around when Reyes started to go rogue
We also don't know the details of his retirement. Could be related
placid fulcrum
Reyes started to go rogue 20 years earlier
placid fulcrum
Even before mccree was recruited
grand wedge
Reaper was active 20 years ago
Was it the same person? Was it a codename for Blackwatch activities?
limpid agate
The legend of a Reaper
limpid agate
Reyes is a very theatrical person. Embracing his legendary rumoured persona is what he would do
There are many holes
Don't get me wrong
grand wedge
Way too many
limpid agate
But some of what you are asking isn't a hole
grand wedge
That's what make him such an interesting character
placid fulcrum
The only thing we know as of now is exactly what I described - Reyes was a loyal overwatch agent, until one day in switzerland he suddenly yelled "everybody join me or I will kill you and your families and friends!" and then he was surprised everybody just looked at him like a maniac
I'd like to know what exactly led to that
limpid agate
We've been given points towards his motivation in Old Soldiers, Retribution, and offhand in the short stories.
placid fulcrum
Yeah, but that has nothing to do with switzerland
placid fulcrum
Genji agreed with his actions in retribution. Jack let him do his thing in the UK.
How did he suddenly decide to start a rebellion sll by himself?
limpid agate
"They left me to suffer," and the Swiss HQ was exploded. I would suggest that he was left to suffer in Switzerland
placid fulcrum
That doesn't explain anything
limpid agate
The bigger catalyst mentioned in these is Ana
Ana going MIA hit him hard
And Overwatch gave up quickly on it
placid fulcrum
One specific person "left him to suffer". Not every overwatch agent ever. Hell, everyone thought he died.
His grudge against them makes little sense
limpid agate
If he was left to suffer
When did Mercy come to help him?
Or Winston? Or anyone in Overwatch
grand wedge
Overwatch was corrupted - (What you left behind)
placid fulcrum
He was presumed dead. Why would they question it
placid fulcrum
My biggest worry is that perhaps not even the writers know it
limpid agate
And they gave up on her too
Reaper didn't
He talks about it in Old Soldiers and its doscussed again in the short stories
placid fulcrum
I can think of ways to explain it away, but a lot of different things would have to happen to lead to that. We need more lore
limpid agate
Overwatch were the heroes of the world, amd they consistently abandonned people or did the wrong thing
Arresting Antonio so he would bail out again, abandoning Ana, abandoning him
grand wedge
Don't forget the whole unreliable narrator thing Michael Chu is playing with
placid fulcrum
As if Reyes did no wrong
limpid agate
I'm saying that's his view
placid fulcrum
Still doesn't explain the sudden rebellion
limpid agate
Don't forget the whole unreliable narrator
grand wedge
Yeah, and the heroes are all grey, complex characters
limpid agate
What unreliable narrator
placid fulcrum
Especially since it was implied that he was behind swiss explosion
How did that happen? I'd like to know
Why on earth would overwatch not leave him to die when he attacked them first, apparently?
grand wedge
@limpid agate in the GDC 2017 - he said he liked playing with perspective - and that there are a lot of unreliable narrators when they are telling their stories
limpid agate
That's more for perspective stories.
placid fulcrum
That's pretty interesting. But still, we could use some more concrete lore facts
limpid agate
Notably Sombras
Everything we know about the eye conspiracy is what Sombra thinks about the eye conspiracy
None of it is necessarily accurate
The other notable one is the news
placid fulcrum
Oh, regarding Sombra. I get why Talon let her gwt away with her stunt in Paris, but in Baptiste's short story she helps him warn Mercy that Talon is after her
I imagine Talon wouldn't be as forgiving for it
iron plume
Talon doesn’t have to be forgiving if they don’t know
placid fulcrum
Yeah, but at this point she did more to help Overwatch than Talon
limpid agate
Not really
iron plume
They’re not as stupid as she thinks they are, but Infiltration was right under their noses
limpid agate
Saving Volskaya was in Doomfist's interests
placid fulcrum
Does she even know that they know?
iron plume
She could contact baptiste from the safety of her base whenever
iron plume
Neither of the “good” things she did help overwatch much
placid fulcrum
Anything that hurts Talon helps overwatch
placid fulcrum
It doesn't matter what her motivation is, I would never keep someone like that on my team.
Helping Mercy definitely didn't help Talon
limpid agate
Mercy wasn't helped yet
iron plume
when they’ve got Sombra’s skills, it’s well worth the insubordination
placid fulcrum
That sucks as a story though
iron plume
they’d know she’s not fully on board
placid fulcrum
This isn't a saturday cartoon, actions ought to have consequences.
limpid agate
It is a Saturday cartoon
placid fulcrum
Eh, kinda I guess
I wish it was slightly deeper though
Not like the 80's transformers, where Starscream would betray Megatron in every episode
lament prawn
it's not like she's putting that stuff on display for talon
iron plume
they do have consequences
limpid agate
Doomfist's goal is start a war
iron plume
they’re described in Masquerade
placid fulcrum
I know, but it would make for an interesting story if it had led to something
iron plume
Would it?
limpid agate
Vialli got in the way
placid fulcrum
Betraying your allies over bad over again but still being with them as if nothing happened is boring
limpid agate
Doomfist doesn't care about loyalty as much as success
placid fulcrum
Not to mention it makes Talon look pathetic
iron plume
She’s clearly not betrayed her allies in the first case
just because she didn’t go along with reaper’s plan
placid fulcrum
She thought she did. She couldn't have known that Doomfist would approve.
limpid agate
Also, Talon has no way of knowing she told Baptiste anything
placid fulcrum
But they should
iron plume
How?
limpid agate
How
placid fulcrum
Again - in a well-written story, actions have consequences and a person who keeps betraying their allies eventually has to break off with them or get the boot
placid fulcrum
Yeah, I'm just hoping that we will
grand wedge
We probably will
lament prawn
her not being loyal to talon is a character trait, she serves herself, and that doesnt mean that the only right option from there is to punish her. she's a god tier hacker, of course she can hide stuff from talon without consequences, and her actions will lead to more interesting story elements than punishment, and having her caught would take away from her sneaky silent character trait
iron plume
she’s not betrayed her allies in volskaya
limpid agate
She intentionally sabotaged the mission
placid fulcrum
She's not as good of a hacker than she thinks, if they knew what she was doing the whole time
iron plume
she might not have known doom would approve, but we’re well aware of what she thinks of reaper’s plans
they knew what she was doing because she was right there with them
placid fulcrum
Yeah, and she didn't realize this.
iron plume
and it’s not hard to guess what happens when she goes to katya’s office
whereas she could’ve had comms with baptiste from anywhere
placid fulcrum
This is something that should be followed. Either as a prelude to future conflict between her and Reaper, or as a learning experience when she finds out that she wasn't as sneaky as she thought.
lament prawn
they didnt know she contacted baptiste, she didnt do it on talon.com
she did it on her own encrypted app
celest fulcrum
wowza
limpid agate
The world's greatest hacker vs Talon's information network (which is also like, 90% her probably)
How would they learn
placid fulcrum
It shouldn't just exist in a vacuum. Again - like a cartoon. Like in south park when kenny dies in one episode and then is alive in the next, because what happened in the previous episode doesn't matter and doesn't affect the future plot (and even south park eventually decided to switch to some continuity and explain those deaths)
I wish Sombra's continuous acts of betrayal would lead to something.
limpid agate
I wish the Petras act will lead to something
lament prawn
she's had one (1) act of betrayal where another character notices, and even then, the lore/story is moving slow enough to the point where no, its probably not the last time that will be referenced
so its not done and forgotten for all we know
placid fulcrum
I hope you're right
Anyway, mccree's hand
Do we have a general idea of when he lost it?
grand wedge
@placid fulcrum Torbjorn wasn’t aware he lost it, he seems surprised ( in game interactions) So probably after he deflected BW and OW
Within the past 5 years?
rancid ledge
were Reuinion and Zero Hour echos only appearences
limpid agate
An expired visual of her was also in the overwatch cinematic trailer.
The Museum Heist short.
rancid ledge
Also did winston make her or sumn or was she made at the omnic place like Zenyatta and Mondatta
placid fulcrum
what interests me about echo is why she was deactivated
it doesn't look to me like she's damaged
peak escarp
probably because to most of the world, omnics are property, not people
peak escarp
robots then
placid fulcrum
there's that one news article on the screen in one of the comics
limpid agate
Omnics are people in some places in the world
placid fulcrum
"overwatch against progress and against sovereignty"
limpid agate
But robots?
placid fulcrum
"progress" would be referring rto omnic rights
limpid agate
!!loreComics
twilit nacelleBOT
Comics:
Train Hopper: https://bit.ly/2vaOY0I
Dragon Slayer: https://bit.ly/2GpRZRk
Going Legit: https://bit.ly/2InZUkm
A Better World: https://bit.ly/2DeJGpK
Mission Statement: https://bit.ly/2UFLC5o
Destroyer: https://bit.ly/2XcYZ9G
Legacy: https://bit.ly/2DgM1jQ
Old Soldiers: https://bit.ly/2KLILTV
Junkenstein: https://bit.ly/2Is3WZ4
Reflections: https://bit.ly/2IoZQkr
Binary: https://bit.ly/2IzNvJy
Uprising: https://bit.ly/2UCymhE
Masquerade: https://bit.ly/2IzNTI0
Wasted Land: https://bit.ly/2DeKB9G
Searching: https://bit.ly/2Gh3jy6
Retribution: https://bit.ly/2XePmHG
Mini-Comics:
Return of Junkenstein: https://bit.ly/2Gqp7Z8
Yeti Hunt: https://bit.ly/2VPmxRI
frosty shell
I doubt Omnics are property in most places
peak escarp
omnics are just brand name robots
frosty shell
Even in King's Row they don't seem to be property
limpid agate
But Mei's short
placid fulcrum
no, it's uprising
placid fulcrum
"overwatch anti-progress"
frosty shell
Yep
limpid agate
Gotta go find Hammeh's video of it
frosty shell
Yep for the robots thing
placid fulcrum
you cna see part of it in the corner
limpid agate
Nope, doesn't look like its covered there either.
Oh its a different panel
I see it now
grand wedge
@limpid agate Can't post a picture but MChu said "omnic and robots are just about interchangeable as colloquial terms (like kleenex vs tissue paper)"
frosty shell
Some people probably always thought Overwatch was anti-sovereignty
In Uprising, maybe it was something an MP said?
placid fulcrum
why can't I post pictures?
placid fulcrum
ok
frosty shell
Yes but Echo might be different?
limpid agate
I dont need a picture of that
placid fulcrum
placid fulcrum
my theory is that echo, and possibly other robots, were deactivated for some security-related reason, and that's why the public began to regard them as anti-progress
mccree refers to her as his partner, so she should have been in the blackwatch
placid fulcrum
but she's not in the comics, so she'd have to have been deactivated within the 20 year span between BW's creation and the events shown in the comics
limpid agate
Blackwatch was created >20 years ago. That's just when McCree joined
placid fulcrum
hm, good point
peak escarp
or she was active but just not shown
limpid agate
Also ^
peak escarp
we haven't seen every single member of Overwatch
limpid agate
The earliest we have seen mercy in Overwach was 7 years ago until Valkyrie
Valkyrie extended that
peak escarp
Sojourn isn't seen in the comics, but we know she was active at the time of the fall
limpid agate
To double digit years
placid fulcrum
still, if they employesa an omnic, why would they be accused of being anti-progress?
limpid agate
Hmmm
Actually
lets look at the opposite
1 - Echo is not an omnic.
She could be
But i doubt it
So 2
Name 1 Overwatch Omnic
In the era where progress was defined by Omnic Rights
peak escarp
she seems too modern to be an omnic
peak escarp
yeah
peak escarp
that would be like the UN not hiring any PoC
limpid agate
There are no child soldiers in Overwatch
placid fulcrum
since mccree was 17 when he was recruited
limpid agate
That's not a child soldier.
peak escarp
17 is old enough for military service, I think
placid fulcrum
wtf
limpid agate
placid fulcrum
US us weird
peak escarp
and certainly old enough to be tried as an adult based on his crimes with the Deadlock gang
placid fulcrum
at 17 teens in my country aren't even allowed to drive yet, much less given a gun into their hands and thrown into battle
grand wedge
They lock minors in the US so...
peak escarp
which country?
placid fulcrum
Poland
peak escarp
ah
placid fulcrum
but I think it's more or less true in all of europe
peak escarp
in NA people learn to drive at 16 and are expected to have a part time job and be mini adults
minus all the rights that come with being an adult
placid fulcrum
that might've made sense 50 years ago, but not today
but let's leave RL politics aside
robot racism still a thing
peak escarp
yes
it very intentionally mirrors the civil rights movement
plus a little bit of the post-war sentiment directed towards the Germans and Japanese after WWII
placid fulcrum
both soldier and reaper say robot- racist lines when they kill a robot hero
so there's some truth to the accusations against overwatch
peak escarp
Tracer is the only OW member who seems to be pro-omnic
I guess Genji would be too
Rein is shown defending an omnic couple in We Are Overwatch, but that's questionable
limpid agate
Its less pro-omnic and more pro-tection.
I dont think Reinhardt really cares about any of this politics. He just wants an excuse to hold his shield
iron plume
I dunno
placid fulcrum
funny enough, it's Talon that seems more pro-omnic
iron plume
I'd say he's not like
deliberately political
but he wants to defend the oppressed, and that's what the omnics are
placid fulcrum
that's very noble
limpid agate
He's persona to me just seems like, he wants to defend the little guy from the big bad guy.
He doesn't care too much about the details
He'll make the big bad guy a dragon if he has to
frosty shell
Echo might not've been on the official roster
Similar to how I heard yesterday that women who flew Air Force support missions in battle weren't listed as combatants when women couldn't join
worthy rose
What is with lucio symmetra and his father with viscor industries can someone explain?
limpid agate
Lucio's dad made some equipment for Vishkar
Symmetra helped Vishkar setup shop in Rio
Lucio felt that Vishkar was oppressing the people and led a rebellion
peak escarp
speaking of people who were recruited young, Tracer must have been 17ish when she enlisted in the RAF, in order for her to be a top pilot and catch the attention of Overwatch
placid fulcrum
wasn't her accident on her first flight?
jovial rover
where does buford from phineas and ferb come into this?
opaque tundra
yes
limpid agate
!!shitposting @jovial rover
twilit nacelleBOT
@jovial rover Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
limpid agate
@placid fulcrum Not her first flight. The first flight of the experimental teleporting jet, the Slipstream
jovial rover
@twilit nacelle sorry chief, just interested in the lore
peak escarp
it was her first flight with the Slipstream, but she was already a "hotshot" pilot before that
zenith prawn
Clearly, Tracer was a FAIP.
limpid agate
A what
shell jay
tracer wears C R O C S
limpid agate
!!shitposting @shell jay
twilit nacelleBOT
@shell jay Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
frosty shell
Well in OW2 she won't
placid fulcrum
The devs said that the reason Reyes hired Moira was because he had some genetic issues he needed help with. Could it mean he had cancer?
Another interesting tidbit - on Route 66 soldier says "Reyes should have cleaned up the dreadlock gang long ago". The fact that he didn't do it might be a hint that a part of his deal with mccree was not only to keep him out of jail, but also to spare the rest of the gang
More interesting details - mccree totally had a High Noon moment there with Ashe in reunion. All the signs were there - the clock, the dramatic tumbleweed. But he missed her. Almost like he did it on purpose.
On the other hand, it's worth noting that in Ashe's hero introduction video, when she gets to mccree, she punches him in the face rather than shooting him. I think they're both trying very hard to avoid seriously harming one another during their fights. I think it's cute.
grand wedge
We don't know if he was sick of if he had some troubles because of his ehancements - when you see Jack in Bastet he isn't healing as fast as he used to - so the ehancements failing Reyes is a possibility. But it's only speculations
The High Noon moment is him shooting the grenades to incapacitate them - but yes, he clearly doesn't want Ashe dead nor the gang members
teal meadow
I mean, he was going to headshot her if bob didn't stop the bullet with the sign
grand wedge
You need some drama or you don’t have a nice animated short
Or McCree knew bob would protect Ashe at all cost
So he wouldn’t kill her
placid fulcrum
He even apologizes to Bob at the end.
I have to say, it's funny reading old fanfiction now. So many people assumed that the Deadlock Gang was this shady mean organization that Good Dad Reyes rescued young Jesse from. Meanwhile, it was more like a family of misfits
It was actually Blackwatch that was a shady organization. They were engaging in some pretty immoral and illegal stunts. And Mccree's teammates didn't like him.
Speaking of Blackwatch and immoral activities, did anyone else feel like something's deeply wrong with that quote from Ana's short story about using Blackwatch to stalk your ex?
And we have indeed seen Reaper doing that, so he did have it in him.
grand wedge
The whole exchange was a bit weird. Is she teasing him ? Because she is her friend, she considered Jack and Gabriel brothers to her. And she doesn’t know why Jack and Vincent broke up?
placid fulcrum
Maybe she knew he doesn't like to talk about it, but now she thinks that enough time has passed that he'd be willing to open up?
worthy rose
swift jolt
Can Winston get a better jump pack plz cause he needs some more height in those rocket boosters
And also with junk rat they should make a Luna new year skin
surreal chasm
this game is garbage
grand bluff
!!serious @surreal chasm
twilit nacelleBOT
Serious discussion strictly related to Overwatch. Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
surreal chasm
sorry
shell jay
Do you think there is any possibility that Gerard La'Croix could be alive?
worthy rose
No
fresh tundra
Nope
worthy rose
Hmm @shell jay it's a possibility. Nothing's set in stone until it's confirmed in game or through a cinematic or Jeff. There have been many instances in media that do play with this trope
peak escarp
yes
peak escarp
from Widowmaker's bio:
Two weeks later she killed Gérard in his sleep.
Her mission complete, Amélie returned to Talon, and they completed the process of turning her into a living weapon. ```Its more likely that Liao is Mei's mother than it is Gerard is still alive.
valid terrace
Just to be perfectly clear, it wouldn’t be the first sniper bio that lied about a murder
Not saying he isn’t dead, just that it’s still on the table based on past reveals
peak escarp
they've already used the "believed to be dead but turns up alive" trope with Genji
I really doubt they'd do it again
valid terrace
Ana, Soldier, and Reaper have to lesser extents
It’s unfortunately common at this point
peak escarp
they're different
the player knew they were alive (or in Ana's case, her death wasn't confirmed)
prior to Genji's announcement, he was mentioned in Hanzo's bio as being dead
Gerard being suddenly alive would undermine Widowmaker's entire backstory and would make absolutely no sense
valid terrace
I wouldn’t put it as a hard boundary for the devs not to do it again regardless
Plus Hanzo’s whole backstory runs the same way
Genji dying makes his entire character and motivation
peak escarp
not necessarily
Hanzo only needs to believe that he killed Genji
if Widowmaker didn't actually kill Gerard, then why would she have gone back to Talon?
having Gerard (or Antonio or Harold or Sojiro) be alive after conclusively saying they're dead would be bad writing
and I wish people would stop suggesting it
it's hypocritical for the community to condemn the writers for "retconning" Reaper's origins or whatever, then turn around and suggest that they might retcon the deaths of important characters
limpid agate
Genji was the only character that was confirmed dead.
Ana was not confirmed, she was implied MIA
And Orisa was not a character, she was one of many OR15s.
Everyone else was introduced to us alive
Lucio's dad and Liao are the two implied MIA characters we have (also Mauga. But we know he's not dead and gonna be a hero). We could get more implied MIA characters.
But people who are dead stay dead
placid fulcrum
If widowmaker didn't kill Gerard, that would make the reflections comic strange. She visited his grave and even put flowers on it.
I'd also argue that it cheapens both her and gerard's character
alpine jackal
I believe if they do take a big lore standpoint (if blizzard let the OW team, since they said they really want to expand their lore) then theyd do something with widow putting flowers on gerards grave
clearly its hinting that the mind control on her is not as strong as they hoped
@limpid agate When did they say Mauga is gonna be a hero?
peak escarp
it seems like Talon gives orders, and she follows them
mind control implies that she has no control
Talon allows her enough freedom to visit her husband's grave, or move into her family's estate
placid fulcrum
Talon also let Sombra get away with disobeying orders for her personal gain. I don't think they mind such a small thing like visiting a grave/home.
worthy rose
I mean
Sombra is quite literally the best at what she does and I don't have any doubts that she could disappear off the Talon grid if she wanted
She helped Baptiste if I recall and they didn't know that she helped him other than he left and was hard to find.
placid fulcrum
Isn't Widowmaker also one of the best, if not THE best, snipers in the world?
I don't think that in the lore Sombra is as valuable to Talon as Widowmaker.
lament prawn
talon made her that way
they'll do it again if they have to
and sombra's the best hacker in the world too, so
honestly idk where this "sombra is on the very brink of losing talon's trust" is coming from, there was one instance of it, and even if it comes to that, she's the type that would always be one step ahead and can definitely disappear (literally and figuratively) if she has to
worthy rose
One of the best snipers in the world is Ana
before, Widow was a ballerina and they trained her and conditioned her to be a great sniper.
Whether she's the best ever I don't think matters
Sombra however is essentially Anonymous, the organization, embodied by one person
able to easily terrorize governments, large companies, etc...
Something we haven't seen anyone else truly be able to do
And Sombra didn't lose Talon's trust
cause she never had it to begin with
It's more "We trust that you will work in your own self interest which we will align to fit our own self interest for your services." Talon has a far reach around the world and doesn't worry about many things. Sombra with their resources can do more than if she were alone.
Plus it more or less gives them a sliver of control over what is essentially an uncontrollable variable not that Sombra herself couldn't get away
placid fulcrum
My point is, if they're going to forgive Sombra disobeying direct orders, they're not going to make a big deal of Widowmaker laying flowers on a grave.
worthy rose
I don't think forgive is the right word you wanna use
forgive implies that they can punish Sombra
And we see in the doomfist jailbreak that Doomfist didn't want Katya Volskya killed and he's now basically head honcho so like I said "Forgive" isn't really on the table
placid fulcrum
And you think Doomfist would feel in any way threatened by Widowmaker moving in to her family estate?
Apparently, he doesn't, because she did.
worthy rose
I never stated that he did or didn't
placid fulcrum
She's not a slave and Talon isn't a Big Brother out to control every single action of its members. Reaper stalks his family too.
worthy rose
I'm telling you that for Sombra specifically; They can't/won't do anything against her personally mainly because it's in their best interest not to.
As for the widow thing; yea Talon agents have their own lives too. Moira is a geneticist at Oasis and one of it's heads, Widow moved into her family's estate, etc... Everyone of Talon's people have their own thing going on and when the time comes, they do what is asked of them basically.
alpine jackal
Yeah, plus widow is under mind control of a sort
they kidnapped her, and ended up making her a talon sniper, through torture, etc. I cant think of the word, but they changed her. Made her bad enough to kill her husband and return to Talon to be a sniper
She may follow talon out of loyalty NOW, but before she was controlled / manipulated, whatever, to do so
placid fulcrum
I'm surprised Widowmaker is seemingly the only person who was brainwashed. Why not repeat it?
worthy rose
They did it to her because gerard was a high ranking member in OW and was a thorn in their side but conventional means weren't able to take him down so they had to go about it another way which was brainwashing of sorts for widowmaker.
The process could just be extremely time consuming and laborious or not easily replicated.
placid fulcrum
Moira could always try something new. It's been a while since her last experiment.
And it would be nice to see her experiment on an unwilling subject for a change. Because as of now, she genuinely Did Nothing Wrong.
worthy rose
I mean working for a terrorist organization as one of it's leaders seems pretty wrong
placid fulcrum
Overwatch is technically a terrorist organization now
worthy rose
And moira could just be working on other stuff; She is the head of Oasis; likely got other stuff goin on that require her attention. and for the more unethical stuff she could go to talon but moira's more "I do what I want" and not the "I wanna do bad things."
Not really; Terrorism is what you do to basically strike fear and cause public unrest through crazy acts of violence; if anything they're a small militia
fighting against other actual known terrorist organizations
placid fulcrum
Yes, but so many overwatch members treat her like trash, meanwhile Winston is hugging a photo of a scientist that used to experiment on animals with human intelligence
An illegal militia would definitely strike fear into my heart as a civilian
worthy rose
Cause she has a bad rep of doing horrific, not by the books, type genetic experiments that the scientific community couldn't replicate cause she didn't do it ethically. And also character interactions aren't really canon but do a what if scenario. Moira is just the only truly "bad" egg in Reyes's group by Overwatch standards.
Dr. Winston was by the book and treated those animals fairly and they only developed human level intelligence after said experimentation rather than experimenting on people. And based on his assessments and tapes we've heard from both Winston and Wrecking ball, we know that he was at the very least a good man.
As for the illegal militia; typically yes they would but Overwatch is filled with heroes; this is like having the equivalent of the avengers but not sanctioned by the government. Would some people fear them? Totally but a good chunk of people know they're there to do good deeds and good works of course that varies from country to country. Saying Overwatch is a terrorist organization is the equivalent of J. Jonah Jameson calling Spider-man a menace and a criminal which while not untrue, we know to be not exactly the full truth.
placid fulcrum
But do we know that about Moira, or is that only your assumption? Because all we have going is "Mercy doesn't like her,and Mercy's one of the good guys, therefore her word is the law"
If Dr Winston was so good, why did all of his test subjects aside from Winston rebel against him?
placid fulcrum
Genji being dead was in Hanzo's bio
worthy rose
I said Dr. Winston was a good man, I didn't say anything about the countless other scientists who were also on the moon.
Yea but that's an outlier, not the standard. Typically what's in the bio is what is canon. Genji is the only occurrence of that truly being false because Hanzo believed he did kill Genji prior to seeing him again in "Dragons"
placid fulcrum
He was one of them. There's no indication that he disagreed with his coworkers. We can hear his sweet syrupy voice narrating over the images of apes revolting and Hammond planning out an escape
This is the case of telling not showing
We're told that Dr Wiston was better than Moira. But we've actually been shown the opposite.
scarlet sun
placid fulcrum
And "but overwatch has heroes in it" is another case of telling not showing
worthy rose
You can have a subjective viewpoint on it yea but I think his raising of Winston and seemingly more special care of their relationship is more than enough to prove he's a good guy. He's literally the reason Winston bring's back overwatch. He's also the reason why Winston left the moon and joined the literal organization that is meant to make the world a better place. Villify him however you want, to us as an audience he is a good man
placid fulcrum
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"
worthy rose
You realize the narrative is also flowing multiple ways right? There is the view point of the world and then the viewpoint of the characters we see in it. The entire retribution event was the ultimate "These are not as good or as evil as you, the audience, thinks it is."
It's making commentary that while Overwatch has a lot of members who were genuinely good people, they also had some bad eggs inside.
Also I wouldn't use the guy who killed a bunch of children and choked his pregnant wife as a good valid argument for the point you're trying to make.
placid fulcrum
You don't get to break the law, commit crimes, and say that it's ok for you to do because you're a hero with good intentions
orchid swan
wait what? choked hism wife and killed children who?
worthy rose
You realize it's a story about super heroes right? That's literally every super hero story ever. Spider-man, Super-man, Bat-man, the Flash, wonder-woman.
placid fulcrum
Overwatch was disbanded for valid reasons. They have no right to operate illegally. And it's ok, it's moral greyness. But if a morally grey character wjo breaks the law tells me that their enemy is pure evil, then the narration should show me this, because the character's word is not enough
worthy rose
Anakin Skywalker
orchid swan
oh
dusty cairn
then you are truly lost
placid fulcrum
I'm not 10.
dusty cairn
if what you've told me is true then you have gained my trust
placid fulcrum
Let's get serious
worthy rose
That's the point and they're not talking about their enemies like they're pure evil.
Tracer and Winston literally get back into action cause they see the world headed towards a dark spiral and had to act instead of waiting for permission to act. It's essentially the plot of Captain America Civil War except majority of the former overwatch characters side with Captain America's viewpoint.
dusty cairn
That's..why I'm here
worthy rose
Jack Morrison, the leader and shining example of Overwatch, gave Reyes so much room for so much stuff from torture, to assassination, etc... to get the job done and make it a better place. That's the biggest example that this world, while bright and optimistic, isn't without the moral greyness.
placid fulcrum
I didn't watch Captain america, but from the few marvel movies I've seen they did a good job establishing villains as evil by showing them doing evil things instead of expecting the audience to take the main character's word for it
And speaking of superheroes, a lot of people think that Magneto was right
worthy rose
One group actively is trying to prevent devastation of the world; the other trying to cause it.
The entire point of Captain America Civil war was Iron man vs Captain America.
Captain America believed that heroes should do what's good for goodness sake without waiting for government permission; something we literally see done in the overwatch universe in the uprising event. Almost as if they're trying to make that same exact point.
Iron man believed that they needed to be reigned in by a government or some overseeing authority
placid fulcrum
Actually the fact that Morrison allowed Reyes to get away with those things only makes him worse.
worthy rose
Neither side is right or wrong morally except on the side of the law
placid fulcrum
I don't care what Captain america did or think. I care that morrison is a war criminal.
He doesn't have a moral highground.
worthy rose
It wasn't in war when these events transpired; and it's assumed that these people who he trusted Reyes to deal with, Talon heads. Like Antonio in Italy. Who Reyes knew wouldn't get both justice or sent away due to his friends with the italian government.
To the public this looks really bad, but underneath the table, Morrison and Reyes saw that deeds had to be done but Morrison also knew that Overwatch couldn't deal with it publicly. Hence why he left it to Reyes.
That's a lot of moral greyness and depth to the story
placid fulcrum
I've seen Morrison break the law and cover for his employee who is the embodiment of police brutality. This isn't a person whose word alone is enough to convince me that Moira, a character I've never seen doing anything unethical, is a despicable person.
You're just telling me to accept that commiting crimes is ok, as long as the "good guys" are doing it, or "for the greater good" is their reasoning
orchid swan
one of her voice lines is her priding herself in the fact that she has control over who lives and who dies. and I quote "One hand gives...the other takes"
placid fulcrum
That's a very shallow, black-white narrative you're presenting to me
I'd like to believe Overwatch is a little more complex that this
Need I bring up to you some of the lines from the "good guy" characters?
orchid swan
she also has an emote where she sprays out health then viscously destroys it with her other hand
worthy rose
Dude is this your way of drawing it back to "Moira did nothing wrong?" Cause if so we're really taking the J. Jonah Jameson, spider-man is a criminal type thing.
In the aspect of this is a fictional story about super heroes? Yes.
If you want to argue moral lines and the use of laws then here is this. Laws are made for the protection of society and to dictate how they operate so that the people are protected and order is maintained. If a law or government can't protect it's own people then committing crimes to do said protecting is, narratively, fine because the end goal is "Protect people." Which is what the OW 2 narrative does.
There is moral greyness but it's one of those things you have to seek out rather than vegetate and watch passively.
The good guy's aren't infallable; multiple characters, mercy included doesn't think overwatch should be brought back because it grew too militaristic and her technology wasn't used to help people as she intended it to.
placid fulcrum
Even superhro stories do a good job of presenting bad guys as bad by showing them do bad things rather than by telling us "these are the bad guys who are bad because they're bad guys"
So if your point is that there's no need to show moira doing anything wrong on screen because "it's a superhero story" then it's a bad point
worthy rose
We see Talon do bad things; read the comics, watch the shorts. You literally see Reyes, Widow, and Sombra go into Russia and attempt to kill a CEO whom Sombra black mails.
You literally see Doomfist causing an attack in his origin story before he is caught by Overwatch, whom at the time was in the legal right.
You literally see Widow kill what is essentially Robot Martin Luther King Jr.
You see Overwatch do mostly nothing but attempt to stop them at any turn they can hence why the narrative is "Good guy/heroes vs villains."
placid fulcrum
I've also seen overwatch do similar things when it was still in operation.
worthy rose
Moira's story is: Disgraced Geneticist who is unethical.
placid fulcrum
You yourself said that many characters do not tjink overwatch should be brought back.
So you're simultaneously arguing that Mercy is right in her judgement of Moira, but wrong in her judgement of Overwatch, simply because "overwatch sorta resembles that completely unrelated story made by a different company"
worthy rose
What that is no idea other than her work couldn't have been replicated thus implying either it was falsely written research and thus didn't put down her actual methods because it's unethical; anything else for moira specifically is just shown. If you hang around a bunch of killers and terrorists who have made active attempts to stir up chaos like in Moira's origin story, then we can assume that she is either a villain in the story or has no problem with their acts which in of itself in most cultures and societies is a pretty bad thing.
placid fulcrum
It's nonsense
worthy rose
I'm literally not arguing that Mercy is right and nor am i saying that and you putting words in my mouth is really not okay. Take what I say, not what you think I'm saying.
placid fulcrum
Or the other scientists couldn't replicate it, because they weren't smart enough to do so.
My point is - this is bad writing.
Telling instead of showing
worthy rose
The research has to provide literal step by steps instructions for research to be validated. You can't just create a life saving drug, have it's process done and then say it's totally legit and when ppl try to replicate, it implies that you lied on said paper research.
There's a reason why things are proof read
placid fulcrum
The basic rule of storytelling, that other superhero stories do make sure to follow, is that the bad guys should be shown doing worse things that the good guys. With Moira and dr
Winston, I don't see it.
The thing is, we see Moira's "drug" working on screen
So I have no reason to doubt her research
I have a good reason to doubt the competence of other researchers.
And while I completely believe that she's intended to be bad, the things we see onscreen should support it.
worthy rose
I think you're legitimately just finding reasons to be angry about and following the logic of J. Jonah Jameson. Most people know X person is a hero by the deeds that they do. Spider-man is a hero cause he's done nothing but good acts and deeds despite being illegal for him to do so.
J. Jonah Jameson, which is seemingly the stance you're taking, is that he is a criminal regardless of whatever good deeds he does.
In the meta narrative, we know that Spider-man only wants to do good and thus to us is a hero. And that J. Jonah Jameson, while being really rude and outlandish about spider-man, does so because he genuinely believes in the public's safety.
Now the Moira thing. If your research can't be redone with the literal steps and methods that you have written down on your own paper for peer review, that implies that the paper itself is bad because the people who are peer reviewing are likely of the same or even higher status in said field. That's how scientific findings work.
placid fulcrum
You don't have to convince me that Dr. Winston is intended to be the "good guy scientist" and moira the "bad guy scientist". He looks good, she looks evil. I'm simply saying that it's poorly presented. Relying on telling instead of showing, or conventions instead of on-screen evidence.
Is it too much to ask for one panel of Moira experimenting on an unwilling subject?
Or one panel where Dr. Winston is arguing with his colleagues about keeping those highly intelligent animals basically imprisoned?
worthy rose
Considering the fact that they have a roster of 30+ heroes and ever growing roster and trying to give each their own unique narrative, with the shorts, and everything else they're doing for a video game, Yes. Moira isn't the focus of the whole story. No character is the main focus of the entire story; it's the groups. At some point, sure you might get it or so. But as of right now, I'm fine waiting rather than talking about how bad something is because they didn't perfectly execute every little thing. It's meant to be enjoyed and takes a while to pump out new content. If you don't like it; nobody is forcing you to sit there and watch or read further into said narrative.
placid fulcrum
They should stop adding new characters then.
It's hard enough to balance the game as it is.
worthy rose
Post it to the blizzard forum, I'm sure you'll change their minds
orchid swan
Although Moira is supposedly the bad person in the end because she works for a terroist orvanisation bent on wreaking havock on the wrold to better it. I agree that she needs to be shown doing something bad or whatever to cement her evil character.
placid fulcrum
The wow and hearthstone teams have already given up on adding new classes
Overwatch might follow
And wow kills off old characters when they run out of story material for them. Overwatch hasn't done that yet, but seeing as OW2 will have a story mode, they might start soon
orchid swan
Adding new characters is great and I want nothing more than to play them but I want to see more focus on the current characters with their cosmetics and balancing
placid fulcrum
Yup, agreed.
As much as I like the idea of new characters, if it comes at the cost of existing ones, I don't want that.
hollow needle
But a new character might build on to another characters lore for example Mcree has a big connection with echo and we might find out more about Mcree if echo is added
Also junkrat and the junkertown queen
placid fulcrum
Speaking of Junkrat and Roadhog, they haven't even been introduced to either overwatch or talon yet.
Blizzard sort of shot themselves in the foot by adding so many DPS characters. Now they'll have make all new characters either tanks or support and the lore will have to support that.
We're also running into an unending loop by building on the lore of existing characters via introducing new ones. Because then you gain yet another character with very little lore, that also needs yet another new addition.
At some point it has to stop.
limpid agate
The lore doesn't have to support gameplay
placid fulcrum
It did thus far.
shrewd meteor
We can have junkrat/roadhog intervene on some overwatch/talon missions in lore
Just causing mayhem
alpine jackal
honestly a logical explanation for them appearing
placid fulcrum
Judging by the in-game interactions, neither organization likes them
alpine jackal
their M.O. is literally that they get paid to cause fucking mayhem, that or they just go around the world stealing shit
placid fulcrum
It's possible that junkrat's treasure turns out to be some kind of superweapon that both sides will be after
shrewd meteor
Write that down devs
placid fulcrum
After all, they had a payload filled with money and Roadhog didn't just take half of it and leave
shrewd meteor
Hanzo also is after it
placid fulcrum
In canon?
placid fulcrum
Maybe I'm misremembering but it sounded to me like that line from hanzo is not very serious
Anyway, it would be a good way to connect them to the main narrative. And to explain why Roadhog is still his bodyguard. It can't be just a pile of cash, they have enough of it. It must be something very valuable.
placid fulcrum
To someone like junkrat, a world-destroying nuke would seem like the best kind of treasure
shrewd meteor
Ye he would love to burn everything to the ground
placid fulcrum
It would also explain why Roadhog is still there with him. If the "treasure" is something that's not easily divided and simple to find a buyer for, he can't collect his payment just yet.
But he knows it will be profitable in the long run.
Because at this point, he could get a huge reward for just turning Junkrat in.
shrewd meteor
He'll risk getting arrested tho
placid fulcrum
He already does by just continuing to steal
The treasure would have to be worth the price on his head
Otherwise... well.. he isn't that smart
shrewd meteor
Maybe junkrat is just messing around and everyone believes him