"but it needs to be strictly watched"
#lore-discussion
peak escarp
yeah, Moira would disagree with science needing to be watched
and probably subjects needing to be willing
spice hatch
Yeah, no, I mean that we should be able to do more but not do things like a goat-human hybrid
clever silo
So what you’re saying is
Science is currently slowed down by ethics and so
We should continue to strictly watch it
Correct?
iron plume
Science is slowed down by ethics but it needs to be
Otherwise you not only get bad ethics but also bad science
lament prawn
i think he means it shouldnt be kept a secret by a shady organization, and would need consent, but the public outcry would still be so against it and governments would be forced to keep it illegal
spice hatch
Nebulak i'm saying that we are slowed down by ethics, yes, but we need to be careful if we go further in science
lament prawn
especially with how likely negative effects are to happen to the subjects
iron plume
...so you're saying you're fine with it being slowed down by ethics
because that's what being careful for going further means
spice hatch
I think we should be able to clone humans for example for a scientific purpose for example (which we're not allowed curently) but it needs to be watched so a little bit of scientist can do it and not any scientist who wants to do it Frankenstein style
lament prawn
tbh idk what kind of non-suicidal subjects would go "40% chance of a slow and painful death? im in"
worthy rose
Looking at Reaper… Yeah, thank goodness Overwatch shut down Moira
clever silo
Gah, I hate it when things are not allowed for ethics
iron plume
scientific ethics are largely not about "You're not allowed to research X"
they're about "You have to take these precautions"
peak escarp
it's also about transparency - you can't lie about your methods or your results
your experiments have to be repeatable
which apparently Moira's were not
iron plume
some of which take a long time to do properly and may require technology that isn't available yet, even though technology for just doing X is
spice hatch
We're not able to introduce non-human DNA into our DNA for example, imagine the potential if we take some DNA from a spiece that is resistent to a disease
iron plume
replication isn't even about ethics
worthy rose
It's all fun and games, until someone ends up like Reaper
iron plume
or, for a more real life example
fringe blade
We don't even know what happened to Reaper, really.
iron plume
thousands end up dead
fringe blade
Like, in details.
spice hatch
That's why we should test that on willing human beings
clever silo
Mercy is the last playable Agent who we don’t know if answered the recall, correct?
lament prawn
i doubt moira forced reaper into that
fringe blade
Do you really think many would be willing to?
peak escarp
@clever silo correct
peak escarp
^
worthy rose
She has not answered the recall yet nor does she think Overwatch should return, but her mind will probably change when Talon attacks her
spice hatch
no but I know that where i live, assisted suicide is illegal, my grandma just wants to die and she needs to go to switzerland to do that, I'm sure 100% she'd be down for scientific experiments because she just wants to die
clever silo
I think it’d be super interesting if we get a short about her, if it’s a flashback to the Swiss base explosion
iron plume
"mercy is defined by her principles but will become a pushover and run to overwatch at her first attack"
fringe blade
God no, not another brain wash.
lament prawn
even if someone was willing, their life would be ruined if they ended up like reaper. you could take a drunk/crazy guy that said yes and call that willing, but ethics isnt just about that, its about whether or not its good for them regardless of consent
iron plume
real fucking interesting character development
spice hatch
I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that are done with their life
that would be more than happy to try
iron plume
I want mercy to beat Talon off together with Baptiste and then send him to OW while telling them to leave her the fuck alone
lament prawn
no, she doesnt know how big of a threat talon is, she just needs an experience to tell her why overwatch is needed
worthy rose
More like "Mercy will realize that the situation isn't as black and white like she originally thought once Talon's attempt on her life forces her to understand that her pacifistic methods will not put an end to the threat posed by Talon."
peak escarp
Arfus I don't think this is an appropriate conversation for this channel
lament prawn
you could dumb down any character development when you word it the way you just did
iron plume
she knows it's not black and white
Overwatch would be the "white" in that situation
she doesn't want anything to do with it
spice hatch
Okay, i'll end up just saying that i'll go along with moira's view on ethics
iron plume
She's joined once out of the exact same sentiment and it's the biggest regret of her life
why would she do the same thing again
And she knows damn well what a threat Talon is, she's fought it
worthy rose
She thinks that Overwatch is not needed any longer. When Talon tries to kill her and she is forced to defend herself through violent means, she will understand that her pacifistic methods are not enough
clever silo
Well I mean, she was also friends with Torbjorns family
iron plume
She thinks Overwatch was a bad idea in the first place
not that it's merely not needed
clever silo
So he probably encouraged her to join
worthy rose
Yes, she fought them many years ago, before they grew even stronger and are on the verge of starting a new great war
I'm not sure why you want Mercy to remain a stale character who remains in a little corner of the world by herself, but okay.
clever silo
What are we basing her not liking Overwatch off of, in game interactions?
peak escarp
I don't think Mercy will rejoin, but if Baptiste is there and helps her out, she might give her blessing for him to join
fringe blade
Because that would actually make her an interesting character
clever silo
Or other things?
iron plume
I'm not sure why you want mercy to abandon all her principles
and instead turn her into yet another overwatch agent
worthy rose
That doesn't mean abandoning her principles
fringe blade
Her principles are what set her apart
By joining overwatch, she would go against her current principles.
worthy rose
That doesn't mean rejecting her ideals
iron plume
Yes it does
worthy rose
No. She would still believe in peace, but realize that to create a peaceful world you must be willing to fight.
peak escarp
she tried that before
iron plume
She can do that without joining a global paramilitary organization
iron plume
She's done that already
worthy rose
Implying that history would repeat itself
iron plume
it usually does
peak escarp
it usually does
iron plume
and Mercy definitely thinks it will
worthy rose
When Overwatch could just learn by its previous failure and disband once Talon is defeated
fringe blade
Mercy is smart. I doubt she would do something that she knows hasn't already worked.
iron plume
Mercy doesn't trust them to
peak escarp
do you think they would disband when Talon is defeated?
iron plume
regardless of whether or not it will actually happen
peak escarp
what if another threat pops up?
worthy rose
Given how they are led by Winston who isn't shady like Blackwatch? Yes?
Besides, Overwatch did not fail in defending the world.
iron plume
Overwatch was lead by Morrison
peak escarp
Winston wants to save the world and thinks they are the only ones who can
fringe blade
Winston never lead Overwatch
worthy rose
In the sense that they have no shady element in it. Winston is surrounded by lawful good characters
peak escarp
he will lead with good intentions and wouldn't disband Overwatch
fringe blade
Its not like he wouldn't disaband out of bad intentions.
worthy rose
Disbanding Overwatch does not mean giving up on your good intentions
fringe blade
He thinks that it worked out once, so it should work again.
iron plume
I don't think Winstonwatch will turn "evil" or even grey either
But I'm not Mercy
She's clearly laid out her opinions on that
worthy rose
If anything it means showing wisdom by learning from past mistakes and understanding that the world does not need Overwatch forever
peak escarp
"The world needs us now, more than ever."
worthy rose
It worked for a time, until it became too big for its own good and collapsed
Yes, the world needs them to defeat Talon. Once Talon is gone? Why would they be needed?
fringe blade
If they win over Talon and are successful, I don't see a reason for him to disband Overwatch.
What if another threat pops up?
peak escarp
the world will always need saving
iron plume
until it became too big for its own good and collapsed
And with the second one, you wouldn't know you're reaching that point until you do
fringe blade
Oh wow, the world is in danger! Guess who we need right now!
peak escarp
that's how it is in fiction
iron plume
Once Talon is gone? Why would they be needed
Beacuse something else rises in its place
that's assuming Talon is ever really gone
worthy rose
There will new threats, in 5 years, in 10 years, in 100 years, it doesn't mean that it is Overwatch that must resolve them
And history proves that Overwatch could not handle itself after the Omnic Crisis
iron plume
and again, regardless of whether Winstonwatch actually are the paragons of freedom and peace they purport to be
lament prawn
also if genji/mercy is gonna be canon, that could be another way to lead her to overwatch if not baptiste. genji has gained a lot of wisdom in general
fringe blade
I actually wouldn't be surprised if Genji played a role in those events.
worthy rose
Yes, that's why I am theorizing that she will change once Talon attempts on her life.
iron plume
I fucking hope not
fringe blade
I really hope not
worthy rose
I am puzzled why you so fervently want Mercy to remain locked in a tent in the desert
iron plume
I don't
worthy rose
Especially after I proved that supporting Overwatch once more does not mean betraying her ideals
iron plume
I don't want her to be a spineless pushover
yes it does
even if they're good
it does
they're a military organization
she's a pacifist
peak escarp
worthy rose
You cannot defeat Talon through pacifism, and she will learn that the hard way
lament prawn
she can evolve and change as a person
fringe blade
They kill people. How would a pacifist's ideals go along with her joining a group which literally kills people?
worthy rose
Yes, she thinks that Overwatch was shut down for a reason, because the organization sticked around for too long and became corrupted
iron plume
That's not evolution
worthy rose
History doe snot have to repeat itself.
lament prawn
she'll understand that they're killing people who are gaining more and more kills under their belt by the day
worthy rose
Joining a group that wants to kill terrorist who seek to start a world war
iron plume
it doesn't matter if it actually does
worthy rose
Talon will not be defeated by peace talk
iron plume
She thoroughly believes it will
worthy rose
She does not believe that
iron plume
She doesn't want to defeat Talon
She wants to save people
worthy rose
She just believes that MAYBE it's best if Overwatch remains shut down
iron plume
Those are related but different things
worthy rose
She never even mentioned Talon
lament prawn
bigger-picture-wise i dont think they'll leave such an iconic character out of it if they dont make up for it with screen time and a happy ending for her, but i dont know how they'll make her relevant if the focus is clearing gonna be on oevrwatch/talon
worthy rose
Genji put it best. "The world is changing once again Hanzo, and it's time to pick a side". Mercy will realize that when she sees that Talon is an enemy that cannot be reasoned with.
iron plume
Joining overwatch and becoming part of the militaristic machine would be leaving her iconic character out of it in favor of becoming a pushover
who cares if Talon can be reasoned with
worthy rose
You are acting like killing Talon is a bad thing.
iron plume
she's not in the war winning business
clever silo
I literally just realized that Reinhardt and Torbjörn are at the same house in Reflections
iron plume
She's not gonna go out and try to talk sense into troopers
worthy rose
Because Talon is planning to start a world war that will kill tons of innocent people around the globe?
fringe blade
Joining Overwatch would mean that she approves of their goals and their ideals.
worthy rose
She is a brilliant medic, but cannot save literal millions of lives
peak escarp
her research already has
worthy rose
Their goals and ideals, so basically restoring the peace and ending the threat posed by a terrorist war machine
iron plume
She definitely won't do that by being stuck in an overwatch base occasionally helping out missions
worthy rose
Given how they don't even seem to have a fixed base, no.
iron plume
And she's literally already saved millions
fringe blade
She can help fight Talon without joining Overwatch
iron plume
^
worthy rose
And how she was not doing that even backin the old Overwatch day, having participated herself in two missions
fringe blade
You're making it seem like Overwatch is the only way to fight against talon
iron plume
occasionally helping out missions
worthy rose
Which other organizations or individuals are actively trying to stop Talon?
iron plume
The only way to stop a bad guy with a war machine is a good guy with a war machine
lament prawn
also we dont yet know how different recalled overwatch will be, lead by someone new, minus the traitors
iron plume
again, not the point
worthy rose
Yes… the only way to stop a bad guy with a war machine is to get a war machine of your own… you can't stop a crazy warmonger with peace talk and pleas
iron plume
plus, "traitors" isn't the problem
Morrison wasn't a traitor, he had good intentions until the end
Mercy still disapproves the fuck out of him
fringe blade
Honestly, I feel like one of the only things about Overwatch that would be of interest for her would be their resources
iron plume
..what resources lol
worthy rose
And the fact that no one else seems to care about the threat posed by Talon
fringe blade
I mean, still. She would have a variety of more options.
iron plume
yes
fringe blade
I'm not saying she will join em, I hope not, but still.
iron plume
and anything big enough that it "opens her eyes to talon" (implying she's stupid enough that she doesn't know it) would also get other people to rise against them
MSF did more to save lives than any army medic
worthy rose
Besides, she does not have to rejoin Overwatch herself to help them. She could just help Winston as a third party ally, agreeing with his idea that Talon needs to be stopped, but warning him that she will not support another world-wide Overwatch
iron plume
Besides, she does not have to rejoin Overwatch herself to help them
so close and yet so far
lament prawn
people can think a certain way one day, a different one the next. thats what makes characters interesting. maybe she just needs to see it for herself.
worthy rose
Not being able to realize the threat posed by Talon does not make her stupid, seeing as only a select few know the truth, since Talon is a secretive terrorist organization striking from the shadows
fringe blade
But she realizes the threat.
iron plume
People change their opinions with new evidence
People don't abandon their core principles just because they were attacked once
fringe blade
She just doesn't want bloodshed.
worthy rose
In which part of the lore does she mention Talon?
iron plume
she realizes the threat and she likely knows that a winston-led overwatch wouldn't be "as bad"
fringe blade
You know that lore isn't limited to the wiki page, right?
iron plume
that doesn't change the fact that she's a staunch pacifist that already regrets joining a "good guys" military organization that you're trying to force into a "good guys" military organization
worthy rose
You don't have to get attacked 20 times to change your mind. A single yet devastating attempt on your life is often enough.
Tell me then, where did she even mention Talon?
fringe blade
Just because she doesn't mention em doesn't mean she doesn't understand the threat.
worthy rose
She does not regret joining Overwatch, don't twist her words. She thinks that it's best, given the circumstances, if it remains shut
iron plume
oh christ
worthy rose
She does not realize the threat is basically your speculation, since you don't have proof that she is actively worried by Talon and Doomfist
iron plume
She does not realize the threat is basically your speculation
no, that's your speculation
considering you want her to change her mind once she does
fringe blade
I am saying she DOES understand the threat.
peak escarp
she's a combat medic
worthy rose
You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you
peak escarp
she knows how to handle attacks
worthy rose
I'm sorry, but you can't just throw around random claims and pretend that they are reality
peak escarp
and it seems like Baptiste is heading to meet her, so she won't be alone either
fringe blade
And anyways, how would she not know about Talon/ Talon's threat?
worthy rose
Like most of the other people on the globe?
iron plume
I'm so totally on board with her sending Baptiste to help out Overwatch
spice heath
ffffff
fringe blade
She literally helped capture Max
fringe blade
whatever
worthy rose
8 years ago, before Talon's resurgence and unification under Doomfist
fringe blade
I love how you are accusing us of 'speculating'.
iron plume
especially considering that Doomfist was recently busted out and it made the news
worthy rose
I'm not accusing you of speculation, I'm accusing you of making a claim without any proof
peak escarp
Talon has been active in the years since then, and just because she's in the Middle East doesn't mean she doesn't get the news
iron plume
that's speculation
desert hawk
What’s the debate?
fringe blade
Whether Mercy will join Overwatch or not
worthy rose
All events that do not impact her directly since they happened very far from her. And even if she did know that Talon is behind those attacks, she hasn't made any effort at all to actually fight against Talon, thus it is still incorrect to see that she realizes the threat posed by Talon and is trying to stop them.
worthy rose
I thought she was also a combat medic who seeks to bring peace to the world? Talon being the greatest obstacle in the way of world peace?
peak escarp
yes
fringe blade
She wants to both save people and bring world peace.
peak escarp
but at the moment, she's working as a Field Medic/First Responder in the Middle East
and she doesn't really want to bring peace to the world
she just wants to help where she can
worthy rose
So she is fine letting Doomfist start a world-wide conflict that will result in massive civilian casualties so long as she gets to remain in her tent tending to some wounded?
peak escarp
she's just one person
she's not going to be able to stop him by herself
Though she spends most of her time caring for the broken and dispossessed in crisis areas around the world, Dr. Ziegler can be counted on to don her Valkyrie suit whenever innocents are imperiled.
worthy rose
And she does not have to fight them by herself
iron plume
Now who's reducing an argument
worthy rose
The whole point of the Recall and the modern Overwatch storyline is Winston realizing that those who are supposed to stop Talon are ignoring that threat, hence why they have to do something about it even if legally it is not in their place to do so
peak escarp
yes, and?
iron plume
Why are "joining a global paramilitary force" and "doing nothing" the only two options
worthy rose
It's not Winston's job to stop Talon either, it's not Mei's job, it's not Genji's job, it's not Ana's job, it's not Soldier's job.
iron plume
I'd love the role for Mercy being the leader of a post-OW mega-MSF
worthy rose
I already gave you a third option
peak escarp
so Winston brought them back
worthy rose
Joining Overwatch in the fight as a third party who will keep an eye on Winston
And Mercy was a former member of Overwatch
iron plume
that's just the first option again
peak escarp
she doesn't need to join Overwatch to keep an eye on Winston
worthy rose
It's not the first option
You don't have to join Overwatch, you can just be a third party in league with them
It's not like you must absolutely declare loyalty to Overwatch if you want to assist them
peak escarp
we'll have to wait and see what her response to the recall is
worthy rose
This would also lead to an interesting dynamic between Mercy and the other Overwatch members in which Mercy helps them when need be, but keeps them under control
peak escarp
if she says no to the recall, I doubt anything will make her go back
hot kite
In the Baptist’s story manga and him went on a mission to save a talon medic
lament prawn
if she does end up joining overwatch, we still dont know what it is that will lead her to do so, maybe its not a minor attack, it could be an entirely different event we havent thought of. professional writers have surprised us before.
hot kite
He will be a talon support soon probs
limpid agate
@hot kite What are you talking about
worthy rose
Regardless I really hope Mercy will receive some development eventually since she is my main
iron plume
That I can agree on
limpid agate
They went to capture him, not save him
peak escarp
and they didn't go to save him, their mission was to extort him
limpid agate
And he was an abalyst, not a combatant
iron plume
I just want it to not be development that goes against her established character
iron plume
i’m guessing that’s autocorrect striking
worthy rose
Just pointing this out
Her estabilished character comes from one voiceline she has in the game
worthy rose
Yes. We are having this debate because of that one line where she thinks maybe it's best if Overwatch remains shut.
And we didn't exactly see a lot of her, just saying...
peak escarp
there's also her discussion with Morrison in Uprising
iron plume
because that’s the only time she’s brought up to be a pacifist obviously
peak escarp
yes
lament prawn
yes
iron plume
It doesnt mean you participate in it either
limpid agate
She has:
In game voice lines
Uprising comic + event
Storm Rising event
All the mentions of her childhood from Torb
worthy rose
Yes… so long as you don't mind Talon succeeding in its dark goals, which does not bode well for mankind
iron plume
you're conflating "not being in overwatch" with "not caring about talon" again
worthy rose
But… you literally just said that she does not have to join the fight against Talon
limpid agate
they're not joining Talon
But they're not stopping the fight against Talon
Mercy has reason to reject Overwatch
But that doesn't mean she's just gonna ignore Talon
peak escarp
Jack has his own mission that he's pulling Ana into
iron plume
But… you literally just said that she does not have to join the fight against Talon
I did no such thing
lament prawn
i personally want her to answer the recall, but i agree that it shouldnt happen on a whim, but rather through good writing
worthy rose
What? They are moving against Talon at the end of the Bastet comic
limpid agate
Yes
iron plume
which is his own mission
limpid agate
But not joining Overwatch
worthy rose
Yes, you said "It doesnt mean you participate in it either", implying that you do not want her to participate
Oh absolutely
I even presented an option where she does not join Overwatch itself
iron plume
You presented an option where she joins overwatch in everything but name
I presented an actual option where she helps people without being part of the military
Leading a medical and humanitarian task force MSF-style
worthy rose
No. I presented an option where she helps Overwatch when called upon, like any third party ally would with one of their allies, but would be wary of Winston
peak escarp
MSF?
iron plume
Medicins Sans Frontieres
worthy rose
She can do both. One does not exclude the other
iron plume
helping overwatch when they need medical help
worthy rose
Besides, Overwatch does not even have a military anymore
worthy rose
It's literally just a band of war veterans who banded together
iron plume
one is doing her job as a medic
the other is following OW's orders
worthy rose
Helping Overwatch when they call upon her medical skills?
Answering a call to arms from an ally does not mean following their orders
I'm not actually sure why you deal in such absolutes
"She can't join two organizations, she can't help Overwatch and at the same time retain her Independence."
iron plume
She can help overwatch
but doing so on their beck and call is not "retaining her independence"
worthy rose
I never said that she would be forced to help them.
worthy rose
She can just choose, you know, to help them of her own volition, then she would only have herself to blame if she has to keep her word
She can choose to break her pact, to go back on her word, but then that wouldn't paint her in a good light.
iron plume
Which is why that choice is essentially shackling her to the organization
worthy rose
Obviously, starting from the assumption that she decides to build her own organization and at the same time give support to Overwatch
iron plume
because every time she doesn't help them, even when she has a damn good reason to, would be "breaking her pact"
worthy rose
As much as two allies are shackled amongst themselves during a time of war
That's how alliances work
worthy rose
Which is what I literally just assumed… that she could help Overwatch against Talon AND still have her own faction that helps the innocents in her name
iron plume
Allies would be her healing Overwatch agents when they're in a warzone they're operating in, in the same vein as she does any other wounded civilian or fighter
worthy rose
So by being an ally of Overwatch, she could use her medical skills to help them win the war against a terrible threat to mankind
iron plume
sure
worthy rose
I literally just borrowed your idea of Mercy creating her own organization and combining it with my own if you hadn't noticed
iron plume
<
and then piece by piece removed every part of yours that I objected to
then yeah sure it works
worthy rose
What are you talking about?
iron plume
first it was joining overwatch
then it was leading her organization and joining overwatch
then it was organization and answering overwatch's demands
then organization and prioritizing overwatch support
now it's organization and healing overwatch agents the same way she'd heal any other victim
I agree with that last one 100%
so, sure, you won, I guess?
fringe blade
You are just contradicting your original statement at this point Icaro
worthy rose
I didn't contradict myself at all when I've been saying for like 30 minutes that she could also just help Overwatch as a third party
I also never said that she had to answer the demands of Overwatch, I even mentioned how her helping them does not mean she has to become their minion… but okay
iron plume
I never disagreed with her helping overwatch
I disagreed with how you would like her to be helping overwatch
worthy rose
By joining them in their fight against Talon?
iron plume
I even mentioned how her helping them does not mean she has to become their minion
Sure, after the third goalpost move
we're not doing this again
worthy rose
I'm not actually sure what you are accusing me of, but okay
iron plume
I mean we've pretty much arrived at an agreement lmao
worthy rose
Even at the beginning I never said that her rejoining Overwatch would entail her becoming their underling who follows their orders. YOU said it. But okay, let's agree to disagree.
iron plume
#MercyForSpaceMSF2078
her rejoining Overwatch would entail her becoming their underling who follows their orders
That's what joining a military organization is
so it seems like you wouldn't want her to
fringe blade
Originally, you said that Talon would attack her, which would change all her ideals and show her why Talon is a big enough threat to not be able to be a pacifist.
worthy rose
Winston and his friends are not a military organization
fringe blade
Overwatch IS.
worthy rose
They are literally just a couple of war veterans with no army, no resources, no base, and no legal support
iron plume
They're trying to be
They are literally just a couple of war veterans with no army, no resources, no base, and no legal support
AKA "Our last best hope of defeating Talon"
worthy rose
Joining the fight for the world does not mean that you cease being a pacifist
iron plume
that would obviously change for them to be the thing you want them to be and for mercy to join
Joining the fight
cease being a pacifist
worthy rose
The best hope? Yeah, since pretty much everyone else ignores them. The last hope? No, if the various countries wake up
lament prawn
i mean, calling it a military organization isnt factually wrong but paints it in a bit of a darker light. considering overwatch is now unofficial and the agents probably have more leeway and freedom, i doubt she would receive orders and commands that she is opposed to, from winston no less
iron plume
They'd need to move way past that to be serious competition to Talon
worthy rose
In what way, shape, or form are Winston and his five friends, with not even any stronghold, a military organization comparable to even just Omnic Crisis Overwatch?
iron plume
they're not
which is why saying Mercy has to join them to help against Talon is pretty silly
worthy rose
It wouldn't come down to that if the other organizations and countries realized what Doomfist wants to do
We need to talk about Mercy being forced to follow Winston's orders though
iron plume
We have
worthy rose
I certainly haven't seen Winston bossing around Mei, Genji, or Tracer. Can you elaborate on that?
Who even made Winston leader?
peak escarp
Winston made himself leader
worthy rose
And do they even still see themselves as Overwatch?
lament prawn
even considering he recalled overwatch himself, he'd be the type to allow for other agent's input and suggestions on missions and such, not tell people what to do constantly
worthy rose
I meant as still Overwatch as an actual organization. Or do they just see themselves as a ragtag of war veterans who are upholding Overwatch's old ideals and see themselves as spiritual successors of the old Overwatch, but don't actually define themselves as being affiliated with Overwatch as an organization
lament prawn
they are still overwatch but smaller and less official
worthy rose
Still, my point remains unchanged. I have yet to see Winston ordering around the other agents who answered the Recall.
lament prawn
winston doesnt even like violence
he says it after getting a kill
he sees it as a last resort
worthy rose
That Mercy joining Overwatch in the fight against Talon either directly or just as a distant ally would both be good character development for her and logical
fringe blade
I don't understand why you want Mercy to stop being a pacifist so bad.
worthy rose
It's not that I don't want her to become a warmonger (since we are just talking about absolutes here)
iron plume
we're not but okay
worthy rose
It's that her remaining a pacifist means that she would literally never take up arms against anyone and just remain in her tent helping people and sporadically going out to support some MSF organization.
If you want her to remain a secondary character in an isolated area of the world, good for you
It's almost like pacifist characters don't really work that well in a superhero story, or don't have a lot of room for development
lament prawn
i want her short to have an arc where she realizes heroes never could die without her aid
iron plume
let's not deal in absolutes
Mercy not signing up to overwatch means she'll remain in her tent
fringe blade
lmao
worthy rose
Mercy remaining a pacifist means she'll remain in her tent.
iron plume
no
worthy rose
Since by your very definition a pacifist is someone who never joins any fight
iron plume
...no
sudden sequoia
Nope it means she’s gonna do her own thing like McCree doing things that align with her ideals
worthy rose
… but that's the basis of your original point that Mercy joining Overwatch would be out of character...
fringe blade
A pacifist is someone who is against violence.
iron plume
thank you
It's not
She can join "the fight" against talon
without inherently supporting violence
sudden sequoia
Doesn’t mean she won’t help overwatch if she ends up in the same place as them just not an overwatch member
worthy rose
Ah yes, she will help defeat Talon by healing 30 people in her tent
iron plume
we've been over this
I've explained it thoroughly
worthy rose
That will show Doomfist!
iron plume
can you fuck off with the tent thing
leading a massive humanitarian organization is totally the same thing
worthy rose
Why would I, it's where Mercy currently lives and the only place she's ever been in the post-Overwatch era
iron plume
obviously
she's been all over the world helping people in affected areas without ever needing to pick up a gun
worthy rose
Which once more goes back to my original point of you being adamant in having Mercy remain a stale character for what little we've seen of her
iron plume
she can do that on a much larger scale and help people much more than healing a ragtag group of veterans ever will
...no
worthy rose
Did character development hurt you somewhere or something?ù
iron plume
jesus fucking christ
fringe blade
Fighting isnt the only way to move the story forward
You are just so adamant to be right
iron plume
Character development isn't replacing a character
sudden sequoia
I don’t think she’d just sit idly by however if someone was gonna kill an innocent maybe a child or something like that she’d probably fight said person.
worthy rose
Not wanting to change herself, not wanting to adapt, no wanting to see other people's perspectives or change some of her ideals even a little. Yes, that is being adamant in avoiding any sort of character development
fringe blade
We really need to drop this.
worthy rose
Character development moves the story forward. Mercy not changing once in her ideals or mentality does not move the story forward.
limpid agate
Character development does not moce the story dorward
peak escarp
she can have character development without changing her principles
iron plume
Mercy not changing once in her ideals or mentality
not remotely my point
limpid agate
Example: Binary
fringe blade
Just drop this, seriously guys.
iron plume
it's fine
fringe blade
What's the point of arguing?
iron plume
I don't
worthy rose
Your point, you mean, since you are adamant in keeping her a pacifist who never changes
iron plume
She's an interesting character
fringe blade
CAN YOU STOP REPEATING THE SAME DAMN THING
iron plume
Don't make her a less interesting character and call it "character development"
fringe blade
WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT
worthy rose
But you are, you can literally check the evidence
iron plume
we already have good guys who take up arms
limpid agate
I have no idea what's going on here, but Mercy will never not be a pacifist
iron plume
You clearly didn't
limpid agate
First do no harm, her entire character is about that. Its why she opposes Overwatch, and why she helps in war torn camps in the middle east
iron plume
We don't need mercy to be just another one of those
lament prawn
she can join overwatch without being a pushover, regardless of the events or time it takes for that to happen, and she can not fully join and still not just be an idle secondary character. you guys are not going to come to an agreement, so i say just drop it
worthy rose
The idea that joining the fight against a world terrorist organization means that she would cease being a pacifist is baffling
iron plume
It is
limpid agate
Taking up a gun is not pacifist.
iron plume
which is why I'm wondering why you're pushing it
limpid agate
If you shoot a man who is about to kill 20 people, you're not a pacifist.
fringe blade
There are so many things you can do to fight
sudden sequoia
If mercy was stuck in a situation where it was her life or her enemy’s I believe she’d cling to her ideals and be killed
worthy rose
Healing Winston when he is battling Talon agents is also warmongery?
limpid agate
Just because you saved 20 lives doesn't mean you didn't take one.
sudden sequoia
I think in that case she would try to stop the person trying to kill 20 people
limpid agate
A pacifist is one who opposes violence. You want character development? She's already done it.
iron plume
It doesn't make you a pacifist
worthy rose
I guess she'll just let Talon murder her then, because she is a pacifist who is forbidden from using weapons
iron plume
jesus fucking christ
fringe blade
You either don't understand or you desperately want to feel like you're right
limpid agate
During the time in Overwatch, she was a pacifist but also a pushover. SHe let Genji get weaponized. She let Torbjorn make the biotic rifle.
After Overwatch fell, she became adamant that the way they did things was wrong and led to their fall, and she is now trying to distance herself as much as possible from taking up arms
She's already gone through her development
worthy rose
Oh right. First she'll give them a TED talk about the value of peace. Then when she realizes Talon is an enemy that can't be reasoned with, she'll cuddle in a corner because she is a pacifist
limpid agate
I dont think you know what pacifist means
iron plume
If you're asking people to not be absolutist
limpid agate
Have you seen the movie Hacksaw Ridge?
Probably the most famous example
Its based on a real guy
iron plume
don't take the stupidly absolutist position when facing the other side
god it's so great fr
worthy rose
I am not, I am following up from your logic
sudden sequoia
For mercy I think she won’t ever pick up a weapon for her own sake but if it’s only her that can save countless people she’d do what had to be done if it’s the only option
worthy rose
You said that a pacifist does not take up weapons
iron plume
no you are not
worthy rose
Talon is coming to murder her, you know
She is not going to shoo them away with words
iron plume
you are taking the absolute dumbest absolutist version of my logic
and then saying "hey that's dumb"
sudden sequoia
She’d try her hardest though
worthy rose
But… you literally said that taking up arms would go against her ideals as a pacifist. That's your entire original argument
iron plume
no
limpid agate
There is a difference between taking up arms and retreating
Like, legit, just.
Watch Hacksaw Ridge
No one here is gonna explain it to you
Just watch that movie
And you'll probably change your mind
sudden sequoia
She’d never goto a battlefield with the intentions of fighting
limpid agate
No one here is gonna explain it in a way you'll understand*
sudden sequoia
Doesn’t mean she wouldn’t if it’d save others
worthy rose
But I just told you how you explained it
limpid agate
Just watch the movie and you'll understand the difference between a pacifist and a coward.
worthy rose
You said that joining a fight, which entails taking up arms to fight enemies, would go against her ideals. So how in the world would she deal with the Talon agents coming to murder her?
peak escarp
she will defend herself and others, but she wouldn't do that by harming someone else
limpid agate
Go watch a documentary about what Ghandi did.
worthy rose
As I already said, I am not debating the effectiveness of a pacifist in general. I am debating how a pacifist would deal with agents of the most powerful terrorist organization in the world moving to kill her
peak escarp
she wouldn't be alone
worthy rose
Of course I know that Mercy could accomplish great things even as a pacifist, I never denied it. But in the context set up by the Baptiste short story, if she came face to face with Talon and she were alone, her pacifism would be meaningless then
peak escarp
you think doctors in warzones dont have guards/soldiers protecting them?
sudden sequoia
She’d try her best to handle it without violence fully prepared for the worst
worthy rose
Talon also has soldiers of their own
sudden sequoia
There’s no chance mercy will pick up a weapon for her own sake
worthy rose
Backed into a corner and with no way out, would she stick to her pacifism and just let Talon kill her, or understand that some enemies cannot be reasoned with? That is my original point
limpid agate
If you wanted that scenario
fringe blade
We are going in circles
limpid agate
Where Talon closes in on Mercy
And she remains a pacifist
You're only thinking of two outcomes
Gun, or run
There's a third outcome.
Martyrdom.
worthy rose
It's not that I want that scenario, if it were up to me I'd just bring Mercy into the story through other ways. It's just what I think will most likely happen after the Baptiste short story
limpid agate
But the most realistic result is the fourth outcome. Deus Ex Machina - Jean-Baptiste Augustin.
worthy rose
Mercy will be in a difficult situation where she will have to make a tough choice
limpid agate
But realistically
If Baptiste was not heading her way
And death was possible
Her big character definining moment would be just facing Talon and choosing neither to run nor to take up arms.
But instead die a martyr protecting people.
Buying others time to escape or flee
lament prawn
this talk is just indirectly hyping up a short which might not even exist
worthy rose
That would be an interesting development
lament prawn
god i want it to be mercy so bad now
limpid agate
But Blizz won't kill off Mercy
Best case
You get all that, then Baptiste dives in right before she takes the bullet
And helps her fight off Talon
But we will almost certainly not get that plot line
Its just what I imagine would happen given the scenario
worthy rose
I do hope the short is about this story, it just makes sense since it involves many different characters. Baptiste and Sombra could also appear
peak escarp
that would be too good, Blizzard aren't that good
lament prawn
sombra pretending she doesnt know how baptiste could have possibly foiled their mercy assassination lmao
undone canyon
exactly, like, can't you hack everything AND everyone?
worthy rose
I suppose we'll see soon anyway, hopefully they'll release a new short this month like they've always done
peak escarp
I hope so
worthy rose
Of course it could be that the new short doesn't have anything to do with that plot and is about Zenyatta...
peak escarp
yawn
undone canyon
or just shows Mandatta dying again XD
fringe blade
I would love a Zenyatta short
lament prawn
i now want this short more badly than i wanted it before
limpid agate
While 1 month later is technically within 2 years
undone canyon
It might be about the omnic factories thou
lament prawn
regardless of what she chooses i can tell that scenario would be good
lament prawn
i want sombra to be there for the mission and interact with baptiste
perhaps hack into his/mercy's comms and say something
but it could be another recall with anonymous troops, hopefully not though
undone canyon
imagine if she just stole his lamp or hacked into it to make it useless
undone canyon
I guess you're right
peak escarp
I hope it isnt Reaper who ends up going after her
lament prawn
why not?
peak escarp
because I don't like her odds against him
also Reaper has been in a lot of things - give someone else some screen time
worthy rose
And that leaves mercy + bap against reaper
A veteran against a combat medic and a pacifist doesn't look too good
peak escarp
or just have grunts and let the story focus on Bap/Mercy
worthy rose
Exactly.
lament prawn
she's obviously gonna survive it, especially with baptiste at her side
i think anonymous troopers would take away from what the short could have included
a proper confrontation
talon are expecting to get in and out with no problems, considering they think its just mercy
but they'll have two surprises A) she has backup B) its baptiste, which might distract them long enough
and sombra's just enjoying the show
peak escarp
but the (hypothetical) short isnt about a confrontation between Mercy and Reaper
it's about Baptiste reaching out to Mercy
lament prawn
yeah its between mercy and baptiste, but it can have that too as a side thing. mercy getting attacked wont be a minor event, may as well make it more meaningful
perhaps it can start with her getting attacked, backed into a corner, and baptiste arrives in time - and then they talk it out afterwards
peak escarp
having a major character attack her would detract from that
lament prawn
possibly, but if its rise and shine length it could work
i doubt they'll only send troopers on a mission as relevant as eliminating angela ziegler
ive set up way too many expectations on a short that might not even happen
peak escarp
they sent just troopers to get the glowy box thing in Trainhopper
lament prawn
i need to stop thinking about it
limpid agate
Should be Moira vs Mercy. Or a squad designed by Moira
peak escarp
yes
tepid bone
peak escarp
check her bio page
sudden sequoia
You guys have done a bang up job outlining this short for blizz 👍🏼
lament prawn
yep, they better implement all that within the week
doctor
any speculated dates for the short?
sudden sequoia
Is Death blossom canon?
graceful quail
@peak escarp What are yall tlaking about?
And yes of course death blossom is cnaon
canon
he uses it in cinematic that is canon
sudden sequoia
I couldn’t remember if he did or not ty
lament prawn
its in the cinematic trailer
sudden sequoia
I’m too lazy to rewatch
lament prawn
too lazy to watch a short 🗿
sudden sequoia
Would’ve taken minutes got an answer in seconds so it worked out
lament prawn
i meant rewatching for entertainment not finding out a small detail
but if thats what you meant yeah sure
worthy marsh
What’s anas backstory?
Ok she “died” and people didn’t realise she was alive but I don’t know anything else other than she was in overwatch
timid eagle
Could someone fill me in about the map and cinematic teases? I thought Blizzard doesn’t do Gamescon anymore?
peak escarp
they're not doing Gamescom this year, we dont know about future years
people are expecting a map and a short next week anyway
peak escarp
their attendance at Gamescom isn't required for them to release a map/short
hasty surge
Since they are not at games com why expect a map and short?
peak escarp
because the short and map we got last year wasn't revealed at Gamescom
they were revealed at Korean Fan Fest, which happened at about the same time
hasty surge
They are going Korean Fan Fest?
peak escarp
no
not that I've heard of
but it would be a nice change to get a map/short without there needing to be a big event
and with how long it takes them to make animated shorts, they probably started working on one long before they decided not to attend Gamescom/any other show
hasty surge
True
peak escarp
and I think the biggest thing is that on Seagull's Sigma stream, Jeff said something would be coming late summer/early fall "when people are going back to school"
that could be any time in the next month
limpid mango
is it just me or does sigma need a rework
i mean
hes a black hole guy right?
gravity and stuff?
prisma wren
not realy lore
limpid mango
wdym
id imagine that his character revolves around the fact that hes a scientist who has to do a lot with gravity so im wondering why he shoots two d20s off of his hand and why he throws a floating shield forward
fringe blade
Not lore.
pliant sparrow
The way a character works in game doesn’t have to represent what they can and can’t do in the lore
spice lynx
< 
🎹 🎶 EM ESAELER 🎶 🎹 >
devout sable
@limpid mango pretty sure his kit still has a lot to do with gravity?
the dodecahedrons are containment fields for miniature black holes that explode on impact
devout sable
his E ability involves putting together a bunch of rocks and sending them towards his opponents
limpid mango
which is just a repurpose of doomfist's scrapped ability
devout sable
and his ult is raising people up in the air and slamming them down
limpid mango
which is pretty generic and boring
i think a better ult would be for him to "become" a black hole and suck in any rockets/bullets/projectiles and shoot it back outward in all directions and do damage
spice lynx
nothing comes out of a black hole
limpid mango
ok
spice lynx
what goes in will be in an infinite loop of getting smaller
limpid mango
dude im really tired rn
i didnt even think of that
im writing an essay i should started days ago
spice lynx
schwarzschields calculations proof this when einstein couldnt figure it out
limpid mango
ok
spice lynx
quite impressive
limpid mango
well he doesnt have to become a black hole
spice lynx
because schwarz was on the front at the war
limpid mango
he can just be a center point for gravity
spice lynx
and figured it out on a napkin
spice lynx
literally
limpid mango
i mean
limpid mango
what if instead of being a wall in front of him that takes bullets that enter it, it could actually pull bullets and other projectiles from a slight distance away from it, giving it a gravitational pull
spice lynx
go do your essay okay?
👍
limpid mango
Bruh DONT eveN trIp DAWg IM On thE last paRAgRaPH
limpid mango
im going to sleep when i finish it fuck you
spice lynx
im trying to be nice 
limpid mango
no homo thou
spice lynx
soldier 76 didnt say no homo
weak granite
daily reminder that Michael Chu is a horrible writer and we should all fear his future work in the game
worthy rose
Shit lore development can't be worse than no lore development at all
limpid mango
@spice lynx gn
spice lynx
gn
hasty surge
Well with no lore development you still can be convience that bilzzard is writing smth great
With a shit lore development there's no going back
devout sable
i think a better ult would be for him to "become" a black hole and suck in any rockets/bullets/projectiles
@limpid mango sucking projectiles in and turning them into shields is his shift ability
worthy rose
i think he meant gravitate towards him
pliant sparrow
Isn’t that basically just the same as preventing the enemy team from shooting
Only less broken
peak escarp
@weak granite Michael Chu has written some of the best comics
weak granite
LMAO
peak escarp
what makes him a bad writer?
peak escarp
you can't just come in and say "Chu is a bad writer" with out backing it up with expamples
devout sable
@peak escarp remind me, which comics are his?
peak escarp
Old Soldiers, Reflections, Masquerade, Uprising and Junkenstein
except for Junkenstein, they're the comics that progress the story the most
peak escarp
yes
Bastet isn't great, but it does provide a follow-up on Bastet and gives more personality to Jack and Ana
devout sable
it does advance some plot details too
it gave us info on what happened with Anubis, and it gave us a line that sort of hinted at Sombra being Jack's informant
worthy rose
What I'd like to know is how did Jack find her or how did she find Jack
Did we ever get a timeline placement of when Sombra joined Talon?
devout sable
nope
just that it most likely happened with this decade
probably at some point after Retribution, at least
worthy rose
I can't think of a single "bad" comic/animated short the same way I could list a ton of stupid shit that happened in Warcraft
The lore development happens sporadically but so far has been decent
peak escarp
even the ones I think are badly written (Shooting Star, Searching) are still entertaining and enjoyable for other reasons
peak escarp
you didn't enjoy seeing Solder beat the snot out of a bunch of thugs?
pliant sparrow
when you put it like that...
pliant sparrow
Can’t deny that but it just felt off to me
peak escarp
I think that's because it wasn't really about Soldier
it was more about Alejandra and the "Overwatch generation"
seeing what life is like without the good guys around
pliant sparrow
Huh, that makes me view it a bit differently
prisma cave
honor and glory is the best animated short
peak escarp
my favourite is The Last Bastion
devout sable
@peak escarp I wish some of the problems with Searching were cleared up
peak escarp
yeah, that one is a mess
prisma cave
shooting stars is so generic with its "original" moral of teamwork
peak escarp
I liked Rise and Shine
lament prawn
same
peak escarp
shorts don't have to be non-stop action
lament prawn
definitely felt the runtime too with one emotional scene after another
peak escarp
something slower works just as well
prisma cave
wait
just realized
tf2's meet the team videos and overwatch's animated shorts follow the same rules
- each video relates to one specific character
pliant sparrow
My favourite is anything with reaper being an edgy unkillable 50 year old who never stopped his ‘phase’
peak escarp
what about Infiltration, or Reunion
prisma cave
- video shows characters personality
prisma cave
- video shows characters mechanics
pliant sparrow
Recall was Winston - reaper
Infiltration was Sombra - widowmaker and reaper
lament prawn
the only relation is relating to a specific character most of the time, aside from that, of course they're gonna show personality and depth in the characters and relate them to the game with references
devout sable
the focus was still on Winston and Sombra, is what the other person is saying
prisma cave
reunion and dragons are the only ones that break the rules
instead of showing one characters personalities they show two and show the relationship between the two
devout sable
Reunion was initially just a McCree short lol
peak escarp
I didn't think that, the OW shorts just don't match the formula that closely
I'd like more shorts with multiple heroes
devout sable
they still center a specific character
peak escarp
they tend to progress the story more
devout sable
even if they feature others
prisma cave
like meet the medic also had heavy, scout, and demoman, but it was still a medic specific short
devout sable
ok, we can stop with the tf2 references here
lament prawn
overwatch server, lore discussion channel
prisma cave
great minds think a like
except it was a comparison of overwatches shorts to tf2
so it was still about overwatches lore
why dont you actually look at the conversation before you talk 4head
lament prawn
you're comparing overwatch shorts to something irrelevant, not discussing the specifics of the lore, but im not a mod here so go ahead
peak escarp
making comparison is fine
worthy rose
I wouldn't say they were inspired by them, it's just logical to showcase a character's personality and in-game abilities if you're going to make a cinematic involving them
lament prawn
id also like shorts featuring more character, but im fine with one being in the spotlight
i dont know how to explain, its more.. organized/simplistic that way?
worthy rose
I'd say Recall did a good job in having both Winston and Reaper share the spotlight
As well as Alive with Tracer and Widowmaker
peak escarp
a lot of the concepts people come up with for shorts end up cramming too many unrelated heroes together
lament prawn
oh yeah alive was basically as much about tracer as it was widowmaker
peak escarp
like Lucio having a concert with D.Va working security and Orisa and Efi are there to watch . . . oh and Sigma shows up to attack Lucio for some reason
worthy rose
And Infiltration did a good job in showcasing the strengths of Reaper and Widowmaker
Watching that short, I don't get the feeling that they were there just to server as sidekicks for Sombra
We have one moment where Reaper was kicking ass for example
peak escarp
putting multiple heroes/characters in a short is good when they have a reason to be there
it's bad when they're there just for the sake of being there
lament prawn
they could just have characters hovering around in the background, like a short about a talon mission could have one or two characters as a focus with the rest being seen floating around - but the characters are too relevant to just be placed in the back like that, generic troopers work better
peak escarp
I saw a "rewrite" of Shooting Star someone made that replaced Daehyun with Pharah for some reason
😒
lament prawn
???
pliant sparrow
Doesn’t really need fixing
Only thing I’d like to have seen was the other mekas with voice actors
worthy rose
Cinematics revolving only around one character is by no means a problem. It's a plus if the cinematic is able to give spotlight to other characters as well, like Recall, Alive, and Infiltration did, but that is not a necessity
peak escarp
I like the ones with only one character - they give that character a chance to shine and show us their personality
I just like the multi-hero stories better
normal wyvern
Sigma's Cinematic Story was a bit weird and confusing, beacuse it's all in the mind os Sigma, so everything is basically freaking out, and that makes his history confusing.
devout sable
Sigma's origin story, for the most part, had everything happen far more quickly than it actually did
compared to his bio
for example, in the short – he wakes up detained in some sort of facility, and then violently breaks out
graceful quail
How much time has passed in OW universe?
devout sable
!!loreHeroes sigma
twilit nacelleBOT
To learn more, please visit https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/sigma#story
devout sable
he was evacuated, quarantined in a government facility and held there for years, and then it was Talon that broke him out
devout sable
very carefully
pliant sparrow
That would make sense
worthy rose
Also he likely didnt really control it per say
His mind probably wasnt stable until later
pliant sparrow
Still hard to contain
devout sable
"Isolated and unable to control his powers, De Kuiper retreated into his own mind. He thought he would never see the outside world again."
pliant sparrow
Power over gravity is still insanely strong
You have the ability to crush just about everything
And so create a black hole
worthy rose
Depends on how strong the gravity.
pliant sparrow
True
We don’t really know his limits
But since the experiment contained what appeared to be a black hole...
devout sable
the black holes are obviously nerfed a little bit compared to real life black holes
or else it would be a mess
pliant sparrow
Lol nerfing a black hole
worthy rose
Haha
pliant sparrow
nerfed for too much gravity
worthy rose
The universe had to nerf the black hole
pliant sparrow
Lol
worthy rose
Too op
pliant sparrow
can no longer succ as much matter
pliant sparrow
He’s the oldest playable character now
worthy rose
Yes
She is clearly asexual (my HC)
Reaper, Widow, Sombra, Moira, Doomfist, and now Sigma (Bap was an old member)
pliant sparrow
Mauga also confirmed
pliant sparrow
I could see Korpal being a character at some point
worthy rose
Ohhh
limpid agate
Mauga is confirmed
Sanjay is second most likely for Talon
Max is in the gutter
Hakim is in the sewer
peak escarp
I'm 99% certain on Echo
buoyant creek
when do you think shell come out?
peak escarp
announced at Blizzcon, live release 3 weeks later
worthy rose
What's the 1%?
peak escarp
I'm never 100% certain on anything unless it has been confirmed by an official source
there's still a tiny chance of it being someone else, but not likely
worthy rose
Smart
devout sable
@limpid agate Sanjay is almost certainly going to be a damage hero
people kept imagining him as a tank, but I don't see it
I think folks were just trying to force him into that empty "Talon tank" niche
dense violet
I was listening to Overwatch Interactions on YouTube and happened to hear quite a bit of tracer mentioning a curse in the Junkenstein's revenge 2018 video what is that all about
graceful quail
I thought we would be getting a cute girl
but we're getting echo
which is a cute girl robot
hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
i guess it's leave it or take it
limpid agate
@dense violet Junkenstein characters are meant to mostly be parallels of the real counterparts
The Will-O-Wisp's curse is likely meant to represent Tracer's Chronal Disassociation.
devout sable
@dense violet Junkenstein Tracer is a specter – will o' the wisp
trapped between the realm of the dead and the living
or something to that effect
dense violet
Alright makes a bit more sense
modern anchor
Is there some unspoken connection between the iris and the "melody" sigma claims to hear?
peak escarp
not likely
limpid agate
I dont see why there would be any relation
modern anchor
Maybe its just me being thirsty for zen lore but the fact zen doesnt float like other omnics who use hardlight propulsion makes me think maybe what ever the iris could be may have some relation to the equation that Sigma was experimenting with that lead to his powers.
But again, im just thirsty for zen lore
limpid agate
There are other things in the game that float without thrusters
prisma wren
why do you guys think its echo?
limpid agate
Because:
1 - She was introduced at the previous Blizzcon. Outside of this past year, heroes are generally made playable around the same time of year they were introduced, 1-2 years later.
2 - Was confirmed to be an upcoming hero multiple times since the previous Blizzcon
3 - Heroes generally take 1-2 years to be developed including concepting. Echo appeared to be at least past initial concepting stages.
Generally meaning
Not Orisa, and Brig/Doomfist took 2 years
The past year of hero releases is very different from everyone before Ashe.
Who generally followed a trend.
true fulcrum
are we gonna get Mauga at any point or will Echo be before that? 🤔
Sigma came so damn out of the sudden but I appreciate it ngl
teal meadow
no one knows, monsoon
there are a lot of characters they announced to be working on and it's hard to understant wich one will be released next
true fulcrum
true I'm just wondering if they gonna push the 50 or if they'll stop before that since it'll make balancing a hell
but then again some people were talking about character pools before or seasonal characters
iron plume
mauga won’t be next
they clearly want him to be a thing but there needs to be a whole new gameplay concept for him now before release
true fulcrum
I'm just praying there won't be another DPS next
frosty totem
there will be a new healer and a new dps. the healer will probably be echo and the new dps will probably be another completely new character
true fulcrum
well maybe queen of junkertown
but then again there's so many DPS it's uncanny