cunning ledge
Does that help?
#lore-discussion
astral patrol
hasty surge
why orisa's ult called bongo?
iron plume
because it looks like one and it’s easier to say than supercharger
not a lore thing
spice hatch
🥁
ivory current
is sigma being held againts his own will to be in talon?
his voice interactions seem like hes a friendly guy
worthy rose
He is not being held against his own will, but he is unaware that Talon is planning to exploit his knowledge for their own gains
ivory current
oh ok but he just seems so friendly
worthy rose
He is somewhat of a sympathetic character, because his experiments ended up breaking his mind and he is struggling to keep what's left of his sanity, so the fact that he is probably oblivious of Talon's true intentions is what makes it sad. But I wouldn't say that he is downright brainwashed like Widowmaker. He is just naive and crazy
lament prawn
he has a voiceline that suggests he's afraid of what might happen if he fails a mission
ivory current
but what went wrong in the accident that made him mad?
lament prawn
we dont know, gravity, black holes
its like tracer's accident, we dont know what caused the teleportation matrix to fail, it just malfunctioned
ivory current
isnt he missing the top of his head
lament prawn
no?
lavish solar
No ones really certain but it’s probably along the lines of his research with black holes lead him to come into contact with one somehow, opening his mind to the secrets of the universe which was to much for his mind
lament prawn
he said the experiment was failing, so it didnt go to plan
ivory current
he said something about a seal
maybe he was trying to contain a black hole but the seal failed
pliant sparrow
That would have killed him instantly though
peak escarp
he was performing an experiment (of unknown purpose - ,maybe he intended to create a miniature black hole, who knows) and it went wrong
he wasn't able to contain it and he was affected by it
hasty surge
he can harness some of the energy of gravity now
spice hatch
Gravity is a harness
pliant sparrow
And he has harnessed the harness
graceful quail
yo guys
Guys
Yo people what up. We are gonna rank The overwatch male and female characters from prettiest to ugliest in the tier website. Who wants to join us so we can get your opinion??
peak escarp
I don't think that's really lore related
and it's a very subjective ranking system
I would put Hanzo as the ugliest, but I know a few people who would disagree
graceful quail
Wanna join us then? xD people here say he is good looking
last inlet
The only thing I'm gonna say is "Really Doc?", and hopefully we can leave the topic
worthy rose
Why though, we already know how it ends
Mercy number 1 for the girls, Blackwatch Reaper number 1 for the guys
last inlet
Because already that's disagreeable
And this is a serious channel for lore, which isn't really a place for subjective attractiveness of animated video game characters
graceful quail
dude shut up. People with different opinions can get to an agreement. that IS a thing.
iron plume
regardless of whether you come to an agreement, this is a topic irrelevant to this channel
graceful quail
tbh i think the only way lore can progress in OW universe is Overwatch 2
Left 4 dead kind of type
cause rn. Lore hasn't progressed at all
game has been for 3 years
and we have progressed almost NOTHING
lament prawn
because its a competitive shooter game
if we want a big batch of proper storytelling, we need a dedicated high budget game or movie/series
golden crypt
Zen lore
fair raft
i say they make a spin off where its just like a campaign with all the heros
lament prawn
its a meme
so many people have probably subconsciously made up an insane standard for what zen lore could be that blizzard might not know what to do
golden crypt
Curious about what happened to an omnic that can levitate and gets caught by traps
lament prawn
like how getting EMP'd is fine for omnics but not soldier's legs
golden crypt
It should be a passive ability
peak escarp
not everything in lore is reflected in gameplay and vice versa
peak escarp
in lore, Tracer can blink in any direction, ultimate abilities don't have cooldowns and McCree never misses
iron plume
and even the gameplay/lore dissonance aside, the trap jumps
you can see it pretty clearly
worthy rose
I did not see a lot of people who are hyped for Zenyatta lore.
peak escarp
people are begging for it all over the place, but I guess at this point it is just a meme
I'd rather get more lore for characters who are going to move the story forward, like Mercy
random adder
Well considering that Zen is part of the shambali (which has ties to tracer and talon after mondata was assassinated) he might move the story forward
limpid agate
The Shambali has no ties to Tracer or Talon
Mondatta was assassinated
That was a singular, detatched story.
The only way Zen could move the story forward is through Genji's Recall answer
And nothing more
hasty surge
Did tracer knew about the assassination or we was just there for the his speech?
limpid agate
Just for the speech
frosty shell
Yes
peak escarp
Zen could help progress the story by joining Overwatch with Genji
balmy raft
Or the shambali start playing a part in the war
peak escarp
they're monks who preach from the mountains, I dont think they'd take part in the war
Zen left them because he and Mondatta disagreed about reaching out to people
graceful quail
tbh i think we need more lore of the characters...
they are kinda bland.
Tracer is the most not bland one and i still feel like she hasn't a lot going for her
even if i like her character
graceful quail
I mean.
We really know nothing about them
Mcree the cowboy. Cool. What are his motivations. What are his weaknesses.
Tracer. Accelerator incident. Likes Emily. Lesbian. Happy personality. Ok.
limpid agate
Weakness: McCree has a low opinion of himself. His motivation is just to get by and redeem himself for his criminal past without taking the glory. He doesn't view himself as a hero, just as a guy delivering justice to make up for his youth.
peak escarp
McCree is trying to make up for his past by being a vigilante
limpid agate
Tracer's weakness: She is over confident and relies too much on her chronal accelerator. Once that fails, she's useless, but she has too much faith in it that it backfires or works against her.
Her motivation is to be a hero, because the world could always use more heroes.
graceful quail
LOL.
limpid agate
If all you're getting from Tracer is "she's a happy lesbian", you're not really looking hard enough.
graceful quail
You missed my point i think.
limpid agate
Now I'm not saying the lore or characters are deep or complex.
Just that there is a lot more than just
"Its a cowboy"
graceful quail
but yea. this characters are not complex at all is my point
limpid agate
And I answered them
graceful quail
Everyone could've written characters like this is my point i guess.
The lore is so...nothing. that we don't really know who they really are.
The just seem like Spiderman for example. instead of knowing peter parker
idk if you feel me.
limpid agate
No I dont.
We don't know who they really are
Elaborate on one hero specifically
Like, pick a hero
And make your argument more in detail using them as an example
limpid agate
Picking the lowest hanging fruit. Okay.
So what about Zen
What is it that you want to know about Zen?
graceful quail
yea? that's what my point is? so why wouldn't i pick him?
limpid agate
So what about Zen
What is it that you want to know about Zen?
You cant just pick a character, say they are a meme, and then end your argument.
graceful quail
We know nothing about him. And don't take this literal cause you know what i mean.
peak escarp
we don't know nothing about him
limpid agate
Elaborate
graceful quail
my internet went off for a sec there that's why i took long to respond
limpid agate
Explain yourself
limpid agate
Otherwise, people are just going to think you're another "Zen has no lore" memer
That doesn't know what they're talking about
We know nothing about him. Ok. What do you want to know about him?
peak escarp
we know he was a Shambali monk who left because he disagreed on the right way to spread their message of equality
limpid agate
Don't spoonfeed him answers
peak escarp
there's more than that
peak escarp
I didnt see your earlier message
graceful quail
You get so defensive lol calm down bro.
limpid agate
You're just wasting time by refusing to answer simple questions.
limpid agate
What do you want to know about X character? What is it about X character that makes you think they are bland? What is it about X character that would make them not bland.
You're just memeing he has no lore and saying nothing else. That's just shitposting and a waste of time.
graceful quail
It's fact tho.
limpid agate
Its not.
If you're going to just keep parrotting "he has no lore lol"
Without giving a single reason how, or a single thing that would qualify as Zen lore which you claim he does not have.
We are going to drop it and move on.
graceful quail
Breath in dude breath. It's fine.
limpid agate
Because this is a discussion channel, not a report "Zen has no lore" channel.
I will ask one final time
You say "Zen has no lore"
What would qualify as "Zen lore"
What, which you claim does not exist, could Blizzard add that qualifies as "Zen lore"
What is it that Zen does not have that gives him an identity of "no lore" in your view
Its not a hard questions, I've rephrased it 5 or 6 times now.
Just 1 example is all you need
limpid agate
!!shitposting
twilit nacelleBOT
Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
limpid agate
Final warning
limpid agate
You're going to get disposed of if you continue meming.
graceful quail
He has no personality whatsoever cause we only know his purpose and that he took in his own path. And what he wants to achieve.
No real personality. No inner conflict. No interesting story.
limpid agate
Ok, thank you. Now let me tell you why that's wrong.
peak escarp
No inner conflict?
graceful quail
It's fine you can tell me. But as a writer myself i have to disagree. i've searched a lot about him and couldn't find anything about him that is MILDLY interesting.
but i can hear your opinion.
Yes. Zenyatta is just " a monk". Most of the characters are just as bland so it's not big deal is just a shooter after all.
and no. Someone's sexuality i won't count it as "personal inside someone's mind" thing.
This goes for Soldier and Tracer.
limpid agate
Zenyatta as a character is designed as a stoic philosophical monk. His voice interactions in game seem to be mostly speaking in riddles and answering questions with his own questions, much like a stereotypical monk teacher that you would see in cinema. Overwatch characters overall are defined as being a mix of meeting a stereotype or placeholder character archetype while also subverting it. How Zenyatta meets it is very straight forward, but how he subverts it is, as he is the launch character with the least amount of lore content, is the hardest to judge. We can see a few instances of him being playful such as similar characters like Yoda in his emotes and a few of his lines, but since most heroes have joke lines, it is a bit tough to judge those.
As for his conflict, the main conflict was the one he had between his beliefs and that of his bretheren in the Shambali order. The Shambali was meant to be a more dogmatic organization, while Zenyatta protested that teaching through experience was best, as shown through Genji. But even with this conflict, it is still minor and not shown through most of his interactions, because as stated earlier, he is the character who has the least lore development in the entire game. This would be a more interesting discussion with literally any other hero, as there is more to say than simply "It is referenced in one or two voice lines, but its hard to judge if it is meant to be a major character trait, or if it just meant to be a couple offside lines."
Zen has no major lore is correct. And that is what makes his "conflict" seem absent. But his personality is very much meant to be your Yoda, your Mr Miyagi, your confusion monk teacher. His plot development, as well as his own character development and any changes in his personality, are all tied directly to Genji. To see further development for this character specifically, you need to either see him with Genji some more, or you need to see a more extensive solo piece that gives him more of a light when he isn't meditating or teaching.
TLDR:
Zen is a monk mostly, sure. He is also the lowest hanging fruit you can pick for this argument. His personality is a stoic teacher who can be playful at times, but we have not seen those times often enough for them to be definitive
Zen's conflict is all about his differences with the Shambali. We have not seen much of his inner conflict with this shift, we have just seen the aftermath, as well as an example of what he would have been like before through Mondatta, showing that he has changed, but not the specifics of why.
If you chose literally any other character there would be more info to go on about. But at his core, Zen is not as flat as he appears as just "a monk" and nothing more.
Now for any of the other 30 options to choose from, there is a lot more to go off of with more examples. Giving yourself the idea that you proved "Zenyatta is bland" does not prove that "All Overwatch characters are bland." That would be comparable to claiming that if the timpani does not qualify as a rhythm instrument, all instruments do not qualify as rhythm instruments.
You said Soldier or Tracer
Those two are easier to explain
You want Soldier's inner conflict? Just read Old Soldiers and Bastet. Or any of the comics taking place in the setting of old Overwatch like Uprising, Recall, Legacy.
graceful quail
I didn't mean weakness like that.
limpid agate
She's an overconfident superhuman that wants to be a hero.
graceful quail
I don't think you get what you mean.
graceful quail
For a shooter they are OK so when you play AS them you know what character you're in.
limpid agate
Her character flaw is that she is overconfident.
graceful quail
but for overall storytelling wise. They are not good.
limpid agate
I'm not talking about gameplay
valid parcel
she shows overconfidence in the original overwatch cinematic
limpid agate
I'm talking about her as a character
In her every appearance, she shows overconfidence
valid parcel
sombra does too imo
graceful quail
I know dude. Im talking about weakness about what bothers her.
OH so you think sombra is in depth character.
limpid agate
Gameplay is not relevant.
graceful quail
Let's take Batman for example. He is an in depth character because We know who he IS we know what motivates him. how he is conflicted, we know why the joker is so effective against him. We know his clear ideals. we know why he is batman. We know why he doesn't kill. We know why he is so human.
limpid agate
You're not defining "weakness" in what context you mean
graceful quail
We know all that. and you saying "she wants to make the world a better place cause the world needs more heroes" IS NOTHING. Writing wise for a good character.
I mean weakness what constantly bothers her. What stops her? what is her emotional weakness per say.
limpid agate
... What stops her?
graceful quail
"emotional weakness per say"
don't ignore all the text for sake of your argument pls.
limpid agate
That's not an explanation for "what stops her"
limpid agate
So a weakness must be an emotional one. To have a weakness you must get overly emotional? So are you looking for Tracer's despair when she fails as thanks to her overconfidence, such as her impending death in Doomfist Origins or her survivors guilt for not saving Mondatta?
peak escarp
her weakness is her overconfidence on her technology, as was previously mentioned
graceful quail
Dude i just explained what i meant with weakness
graceful quail
Stop trying to give me the "oh so for having a weakness you have to be overly emotional?"
that just shows me you don't have arguments against that.
We don't know what her motivations are.
"the world needs more heros" is nothing.
Spiderman is not spiderman cause of yes.
spice leaf
this is some big brain chat 😳
peak escarp
what's an example of good motivations?
graceful quail
neither batman nor every hero.
spice leaf
u are only human"
graceful quail
Batman and his parents dying. he swearing he won't kill thugs so other people won't get by what he did. He becoming his worse fear for everyone else to fear him instead.
and many more.
"The world needs more heros" is nothing. basically.
is like saying superman is good cause he a hero.
"Cause he good"
that's literally the explanation for tracer motivations.
Sake we could know why she likes Emily and maybe that would help her in her own character and know her more. but no. we only know they are lesbians.
graceful quail
Lmao.
peak escarp
like Batman, like Spiderman
graceful quail
My point still stands
peak escarp
they just want to make the world a better place
graceful quail
NO they do have motivations.
no it's not just that.
Spiderman and uncle ben? are you reducing all of that into just that?
limpid agate
You're overestimating uncle ben
graceful quail
im truly not.
peak escarp
Uncle Ben is why Spiderman wants to make the world a better place
graceful quail
You're overstimating OW character more like.
limpid agate
Tragedy -> Don't want others to go through tragedy -> Make the world a better palce
peak escarp
Tracer's accident is why she wants to make the world a better place
limpid agate
Uncle Ben dies -> Don't want others to get dead family -> Make the world a better place
graceful quail
and then you want to become a hero.
limpid agate
Parents die -> Don't want others to get dead family -> Make the world a better place
graceful quail
That's not even it for spiderman
Uncle ben dying ain't even the main point lol
We can agree to disagree.
limpid agate
Tracer's motivations are not the same as Batman or Spiderman
Those two fall under the tragedy line
Tracers falls under
limpid agate
An accident is Daredevil's motivation
graceful quail
oh damn i fell down and broke my bones. Im going to fight criminals now.
Is way more than that.
and even if it was
that isn't my argument.
limpid agate
oh damn i fell down and broke my bones. Im going to fight criminals now.
Dr, Strange?
graceful quail
You can't counter my argument bringing other badly written examples?
why don't you try to defend tracer instead of justifying her badly written motivations then.
limpid agate
X bad thing happened to me -> I want X bad thing to not happen to others
You are not looking at
limpid agate
X bad thing happened to me -> But gave me Y good thing -> I can use Y good thing to protect others
No, my example with tragedy was Batman/Spiderman. That's not Tracer's
I even specifically said "Tracer's motivations are not the same as Batman or Spiderman"
If you apply that to Tracer you get
graceful quail
Dude listen.
limpid agate
Gets in extradimensional plane crash -> Doesn't want others to get into extradimensional plane crashes -> Becomes a hero
Which is neither accurate nor makes sense in context
graceful quail
You haven't countered my argument with a good explanation into why she is actually well written in motivation.
SO we will have to disagree.
peak escarp
you don't even know what her motivation is
limpid agate
She was given a chance to do something.
graceful quail
lmao "Gets in extradimensional plane crash -> Doesn't want others to get into extradimensional plane crashes -> Becomes a hero"
Zero sense whatsoever
peak escarp
exactly
limpid agate
Because thats not her motivation
peak escarp
that's the point he's making
limpid agate
Did you not read anything else I wrote?
peak escarp
If you apply that to Tracer you get
Which is neither accurate nor makes sense in context
limpid agate
No, my example with tragedy was Batman/Spiderman. That's not Tracer's
I even specifically said "Tracer's motivations are not the same as Batman or Spiderman"
If you apply that to Tracer you get
Gets in extradimensional plane crash -> Doesn't want others to get into extradimensional plane crashes -> Becomes a hero
Which is neither accurate nor makes sense in context
"Tragedy -> Don't want others to go through tragedy -> Make the world a better palce"
that's what you said
for justifying her.
limpid agate
Tragedy -> Don't want others to go through tragedy -> Make the world a better palce
Uncle Ben dies -> Don't want others to get dead family -> Make the world a better place
Parents die -> Don't want others to get dead family -> Make the world a better place
Tracer's motivations are not the same as Batman or Spiderman
Those two fall under the tragedy line
And then I could not finish because you interrupted me with some other shit
graceful quail
DUDE IT'S FINE. Cool you think OW has well written all around characters. It's fine. I disagree.
limpid agate
You're deliberately misreading things and ignoring entire lines of text
graceful quail
Tracer motivation makes no sense. Her motivation is not well written. We don't know much about her.
limpid agate
Tracers motivation is a lot like other characters like the Ninja Turtles
limpid agate
They're not a victim of a tragedy that makes them want to save others from that tragedy
graceful quail
and you say it is.
limpid agate
Their motivation is
peak escarp
you can't just come in to the serious discussion channel and say we know nothing and then argue about it with the people who know what they're talking about
limpid agate
I mean, its one of the oldest motivations in the book.
graceful quail
is that realistic at all?
limpid agate
Just look at King Arthur
peak escarp
people turn tragedy into success all the time
graceful quail
LOL
"random kid"
sure.
ok. I close this debate.
you win. We can agree to disagree.
limpid agate
That is the Sword in the Stone legend
graceful quail
We are getting nowhere.
Then you would know about the lady in the lake and that it wasn't just a random kid in the end of the day.
but it's fine.
We disagree.
let's leave it at that.
fringe blade
limpid agate
At the time he pulled the sword out, he was just some squire
He learned about his true heritage afterwards
ashen lynx
Considering we’re going to be getting a new short in the next week, who do you reckon will be the hero featured? I have a feeling it’s going to be Mercy
placid monolith
I hope it's Hammond.
spice hatch
.......🐹
💪🛑👌 oh boy I do too
🛑
🦵🦵
peak escarp
Mercy seems most likely
the story is heading in her direction and she's featured on the poster
spice hatch
no Blizz at gamescom tho :(
lean prawn
if it is mercy, are there any other heroes near her in the current story?
peak escarp
they don't need to go to Gamescom to release a short
Shooting Star wasn't released at Gamescom
Baptiste is going to meet up with Mercy
spice hatch
placid monolith
I hope it's not too emotional. Ever since I was put on my meds even some of the OW animated shorts have had the ability to make me cry.
peak escarp
they are good at conveying emotion
graceful quail
dude mercy will look pretty in cinematic
like we only have a few secs of her in cinematic.
I want your guys opinion on this. Tracer has had some cinematics. and in them she looks different.
they used different models for each
which one is your favorite? OW trailer cinematic? or Alive short?
peak escarp
the Cinematic Trailer was made before they had finalized the character designs for everyone but Reaper
so Tracer, Widowmaker and Winston all look different
I like her finalized look better
spice hatch
I just realized i did not answer the question
graceful quail
That is you making stuff up Doctor. Tracer designs have been settled since early builds of the game.
Don't spread misinformation. It's just a different model.
And probably different animators. that's it.
they both look good
imo
spice hatch
In the OW cinematic trailer, widow has a different voice actor tho
she just says "quoi" and "uh" but it's enough to see the difference
placid monolith
Hmm.. I think I'd most enjoy a short about Brigitte's cats.
worthy rose
That be amazing
peak escarp
that's literally what they said on a Blizzcon panel, but whatever
spice hatch
I personally think i'd be really boring
Brig/Zen/Lucio are for me the most uninteresting characters for a short
peak escarp
the models used for the Cinematic Trailer were made for the Cinematic Trailer, because the in-game models hadn't been finished yet
for later cinematics, they used HD versions of the in-game models, so they looked more consistent with the final version
worthy rose
I would like a short for Symm but we already have a comic about her
spice hatch
to be fair, a comic does not mean no short
worthy rose
Yeah
spice hatch
Oh yeah, what i would LOVE
is a
Retribution/Uprising short
A short taking place in the old OW days
spice hatch
Remember the little in game short we got before retribution ?
I remember this was lit
peak escarp
worthy rose
Yeah
peak escarp
here's the panel, if anyone wants to watch it
I love watching behind the scenes stuff
spice hatch
@peak escarp what about your opinion on cool short ?
worthy rose
Doctor so do I
peak escarp
which short?
spice hatch
What would you like to see, despite the ones we already have
peak escarp
I want to see Baptiste meet with Mercy and maybe help her fight off a Talon attack
I also want to see a short showing Reyes busting the Deadlock Gang and giving McCree the choice of joining Overwatch or going to jail
spice hatch
i see
graceful quail
@peak escarp they said that?
ummmm...
How is that even possible.
Tracer design has been show to be the same since early alpha gameplay.
peak escarp
the cinematic trailer came out when the game was announced in 2014
peak escarp
they would have started working on it 6 months to a year before that
spice hatch
they said they are working on 3 heroes, a tank (Sigma), a dps and a healer, who do you think is next ? Healer is Echo for sure, but who's the DPS and who will come first in your opinion guys ?
peak escarp
the game was being developed at the same time
graceful quail
But have you seen early alpha gameplay?
peak escarp
yes
graceful quail
Tracer model is the same.
humm strange.
Tbh i quite like Trailer cinematic tracer.
worthy rose
Healer definitely Echo
peak escarp
they didn't have finalized models until near the time the game went into beta
graceful quail
hummm maybe not finalized for cinematics that is.
worthy rose
Dps I'm not really sure
peak escarp
that's what I mean
spice hatch
junkerqueen ?
graceful quail
i thougth you meant in game models
peak escarp
the in-game model wasn't polished enough to use for the cinematic, so they had to make a separate model for the cinematic
the design is the same
graceful quail
I see what you mean.
peak escarp
it's just a different model
peak escarp
you can see a bigger difference with Widowmaker
peak escarp
spice hatch
no really related but widow had a different voice actor at the beggining, right ?
graceful quail
peak escarp
it's hard to tell because of the lighting, but Widowmaker's skin is more purple in the trailer than in Alive (and in the game)
graceful quail
yeye
but hte face is kinda consistant
where tracer isn't at all. But tbh she looks good in both.
peak escarp
yeah
graceful quail
What's your theory on what will happen next in lore.
do you think one character will ever die?
from roaster i mean
peak escarp
I think Reinhardt might
he's older, he's already got an apprentice/replacement with Brigitte
and he's a character whose death would be the most impactful
spice hatch
oh yeah
worthy rose
🦋
graceful quail
that's right Rein is one of my favs but i would love to see him go in a heroic way.
worthy rose
And they fight
placid monolith
I feel Reinhardt will be there still to bury half of the cast. Some twice.
worthy rose
graceful quail
Dude imagine if Emily died. Maybe that would impact tracer so much she wouldn't be overconfident anymore but i doubt they will do that.
spice hatch
Love him or hate him but @worthy rose is spitting facts.
worthy rose
@spice hatch is that the rolling ball !
He rolls around I guess
And shoots wires
!!!
spice hatch
.......🐹
💪🛑👌 oh yeah
🛑
🦵🦵
placid monolith
Perhaps well finally get the Highlander.
worthy rose
That just made me 🥜
spice hatch
oh shit
worthy rose
TracerShy:
peak escarp
there's a lot of shitposting going on
spice hatch
Hammond is 14 dude
peak escarp
!!loreonly
twilit nacelleBOT
This channel is for serious discussion strictly related to the lore of Overwatch. Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
worthy rose
@peak escarp I’m telling the lore
placid monolith
Hamsters don't usually live older than 3 years so Hammond can be considered immortal.
spice hatch
He is genetically enhanced tho
peak escarp
Hammond is genetically altered to be larger and have a longer lifespan
same as Winston
worthy rose
Hammond is a space under grown monkey
graceful quail
@spice hatch could you not shitpost dude not funny.
worthy rose
🐒
graceful quail
@worthy rose could you not
spice hatch
Let's say it, Hammond is smarter than any of us
worthy rose
Yeah
worthy rose
....
graceful quail
@peak escarp Can i dm you about lore. A lot nonesense is going on in here.
spice hatch
Hammond the genetically enhanced hamster has a longer lifespan than you will last on this channel I think @worthy rose
graceful quail
dude.. stop...
peak escarp
Hammond built a mech and installed a talking module
he didn't make the AI that's in his mech
worthy rose
Have yous seen Ana lore 😦
spice hatch
oh right
worthy rose
But still
peak escarp
he is still quite intelligent
worthy rose
She got 1v1 quickscoped by noob widow and lost her eye ball
Just because she put widow on the radar
@worthy rose just stop
placid monolith
Ana lore would be great. I think all we have, that relates to the present day, is from the comic where S76 was looking for her.
peak escarp
Ana would have won that fight if she hadn't hesitated
spice hatch
you are going to be quicked scoped out of this channel i think
peak escarp
@placid monolith and Bastet
worthy rose
Ana lapped it
peak escarp
which is the sequel to that comic
spice hatch
Ana has a lot of presence in the OW lore for a """""dead"""""" character
spice hatch
okay i got bested here
placid monolith
Bastet? I can't recall what that is.
worthy rose
Ow lore logic "dead" means more lore
clever silo
Short story released this past January about Ana and Soldier
clever silo
Ana got a cat mask
spice hatch
🐱
worthy rose
I loved when Mondatta died, they should do more tragic kills that raise the stakes a lot
placid monolith
Ah, I haven't read the short stories
clever silo
The internet went crazy because Soldier was revealed to be gay
placid monolith
Oh, it was confirmed? Nice
peak escarp
Ana, Soldier and the others were thought to be dead in-universe, but we the audience knew they were still alive
peak escarp
or in Ana's case, her death wasn't confirmed
worthy rose
lore
peak escarp
why?
worthy rose
Dude he has like no lore
clever silo
No
placid monolith
Okay, excellent. I found the short stories in the pins.
spice hatch
"ThEy aRe DoiNg GaY cHaraCteRs tO SuPporT LGBT coMmuNiTy, iT wAsn'T neSSesaRy"
clever silo
Yes actually I can’t shitpost in this server whoops
worthy rose
A comic should be enough to develop Zenyatta as a character
Animated shorts should serve for something grander in scope
clever silo
The comics are on hold
clever silo
Well they were in development as of Archives
peak escarp
but why does Zen need lore? what lore could he possibly get that would progress the story?
clever silo
The artist for them either quit or got fired I forget
worthy rose
i mean, poor robot
peak escarp
why not develop more lore for the members who returned to Overwatch, like Mei or Genji or Brigitte
spice hatch
Zen lore would be pretty lame imo
worthy rose
Dva Animated Short didnt progress the story
It's a shame that the comics are on hold, they are all pretty good
spice hatch
I wouldn't make the story progress in any way
peak escarp
yes, and it's considered one of the worst animated shorts
clever silo
Maybe the reason we haven’t gotten any zen lore is they rewrote his story to please everyone’s theories about the conspiracy and the Iris
worthy rose
I don't care about Zenyatta's lore, but Jeff said that he would receive lore in the future.
clever silo
But I hope not
worthy rose
Yeah I agree
spice hatch
😠
worthy rose
he is cool
My favourite animated short is the Sombra one because of the amount of characters it involved
Sombra, Reaper, Widowmaker, Volskaya, Zarya at the end
Yeah
spice hatch
😡 Dva animated short was lit 😡
clever silo
On another note about everyone’s theories about the conspiracy and the Iris, that would be a very good reason we haven’t gotten Zen lore yet- they want to wait until the effects of the recall have been firmly established
And then move into the Zen lore if the theories about the Iris and conspiracy are true
That’d make a lot of sense
peak escarp
I don't think they would change the lore based on fan theories
worthy rose
Yeah
placid monolith
The comic of Zarya hunting Sombra that continued the short was good
clever silo
Yeah I don’t think they really would
worthy rose
a lot of people want zens lore
but we want to know what happened after Reunion
Also who is Mauga
worthy rose
also Where did the white busty robot go?
peak escarp
the short story What You Left Behind explained who Mauga is
worthy rose
Sombras short really showed a lot of lore
clever silo
He appeared in What you Left behind
spice hatch
that comic @placid monolith proved that Sombra's not that smart and she can let emotion through sometimes
worthy rose
How so? @worthy rose
peak escarp
Echo went to join Winston
spice hatch
I think it was a great "lore move"
worthy rose
Yeah definitley
placid monolith
Yeah, it's good to make the characters more like people.
placid monolith
Bastion short was excellent.
placid monolith
Such a clever bird.
spice hatch
Sombra was pictured like "godlike" and it proved it was not the case
worthy rose
Twice the pride, double the fall
placid monolith
And Zarya made an omnic friend
worthy rose
where is this what you left behind
spice hatch
Oh, got a question, do you think in the real future, human and robots would like try to be equals ?
peak escarp
it's in the pins
placid monolith
Sure, humans are excellent at seeing humanity in things that aren't human.
worthy rose
robots would just
peak escarp
humans can't even see other humans as equals
worthy rose
Some are
spice hatch
I mean, when I see this thing pictured by the OW universe, it reminds me of community like LGBT that are fighting to be seen as equals, but robot do not have to right to be as equals as LGBT should be considered as normal people
peak escarp
I don't think they'll see robots as equals
worthy rose
I remember one of the new invented robots visited our country
lament prawn
about tracer's design, her visual appearance was settled long before we got any trailers and the only thing that changed was the color of her hair. its just the models used that are slightly different. the most different looking one was shown in the cinemaic shorts teaser
spice hatch
I mean, I feel like the thing they do with omnics is a representation of our reality
worthy rose
it clearly said 'In the near future, we are gonna rule the world and human will be our slave'
lament prawn
her goggles used to stretch around a lot more with her eyebrows too
spice hatch
Hey @worthy rose , that can be seen as radical LGBT members as well, like being straight is """"bad""""", there are radicals everywhere and omnics are no different
All of my argument is based on that comparison
peak escarp
radicals don't represent the general population
so Null Sector doesn't represent the general opinion of the omnic population
spice hatch
yeah sure, omnics are for the most part friendly towards humans
worthy rose
oh lol thats true
spice hatch
That's my point, as for the LGBT commu and black commu in our world, people are scared of omnics because of the radicals one
spice hatch
What i mean is that it depicts the future, but it can be seen with our vision of the society already
with communities trying to be seen as "normals"
worthy rose
But there will always be that one person who thinks humans are not equals. To anything
Or maybe they're scared of omnics because they tried to annihilate humanity not long ago
spice hatch
because a EXTREMIST MINORITY tried
that's my point
people are scared because of a violent minority, like in our world
worthy rose
The Omnic Crisis wasn't started by an extremist minority of omnics
placid monolith
Yeah, the Omnic in the Soldier short. Nothing seemed to hint what happened to them.
They weren't there at the end of the short when the girl was heading back, as I recall.
lament prawn
omnics also arent humans, and the public cant be sure that they're wired exactly like humans, but blizzard wouldnt go that route of course since its a more simplistic and stylized universe (which im glad for)
worthy rose
i wish blizzard could make some more Lore Related Shorts
Yeah
That Dva was a waste but she looked hella pretty over there
ngl
spice hatch
what's the goal of Talon tho ? just striking fear ? What do they want ?
final objective i mean
peak escarp
Doomfist wants to spark a war that will push humanity to evolve
countless inventions come about due to war
worthy rose
When the mission starts, no more messing around
placid monolith
The plan actually reminds me of Metal Gear storyline. Pushing the world into war with a set group of people behind it all for control.
worthy rose
okay someone explain why widow killed her husband
WW2 was the cause of many inventions
Humanity will grow stronger through conflict
However most of them just stick to Talon for their own personal agendas
spice hatch
he's not wrong tho, that's the same about Moira, I can get along her on her vision of science and ethics, I mean, if a person is willing to give his body to science to see where the human body can be pushed, it'll be interesting
peak escarp
Talon wanted to get rid of Gerard Lacroix, who was Overwatch's head of anti-Talon operations
worthy rose
Widows Husband?
peak escarp
after several failed assassination attempts, they kidnapped his wife Amelie and turned her into a sleeper agent
placid monolith
I recommend watching the ending cinematics of Metal Gear Solid 1 and 2 before, between, and after the final battles, by the way. Excellent content.
sudden sequoia
Widow didn’t know her mission was to kill Gerard until she him lined up in her sights and at that point she was so desensitized to emotions due to a talons “training” she pulled the trigger
Iirc
peak escarp
two weeks after she was rescued, she killed Gerard in his sleep and disappeared
I don't think she shot him
I think she just strangled him
peak escarp
but after that, she went back to Talon and they finished conditioning her, genetically altering her so she would have a slower heart beat for better sniping
she wasn't a sniper when she killed Gerard - that training came later
she was just a ballerina
Her mission complete, Amélie returned to Talon, and they completed the process of turning her into a living weapon. She was given extensive training in the covert arts, and then her physiology was altered, drastically slowing her heart, which turned her skin cold and blue and numbed her ability to experience human emotion. Amélie was gone.
sudden sequoia
You’re probably right and it shows just how crazy talons conditioning is because strangling someone is a helluva a lot harder than shooting someone especially if there’s a personal connection with that person
worthy rose
Talon made her a killing weapon
spice hatch
Talon are bad guys
worthy rose
Interesting Lores but incomplete
Overwatch is also quite shady to be completely fair.
Blizzard animations looks better than Pixar
ngl
spice hatch
it is often compared but it shouldnt
worthy rose
yes because they are shorts, and pixar makes like 2 hour movies
peak escarp
not always
sudden sequoia
You gotta remember blizz is being really ambitious with this story. They have the game and than expand on the story through other mean being shorts and comics. Which gives us this feeling of incomplete lores because they’re a video game company first and foremost. If they just made Overwatch comics we’d be a lot further along in the story
peak escarp
some shorts are to reveal a new hero
placid monolith
Overwatch had the whole World Police thing going. It might've worked better if they had been completely open about everything with observers from each nation they operate in.
worthy rose
except reunion
peak escarp
or are just to tell a story
placid monolith
And now they're mostly vigilantes.
peak escarp
Infiltration and Reunion introduced a new hero (Sombra and Ashe)
worthy rose
I agree with Mercy when she said that perhaps it's best if Overwatch remains shut down
peak escarp
Shooting Star introduced a new map (Busan)
lament prawn
i want mercy's meeting with baptiste to show her why overwatch is still needed
sudden sequoia
I don’t know without overwatch who is realistically gonna take care of talon
placid monolith
Busan is a fun map. I've never got to sing karaoke though.
worthy rose
what really?
Hanamura was there before?
Eichenwield too?
Yeh but iirc the map for hanamura was slightly altered
peak escarp
Hanamura was a launch map
worthy rose
Yes
peak escarp
Eichenwalde was added in Sept 2016
worthy rose
The various nations of the world still have their own armies
placid monolith
Yeah, the short gave Eichenwalde more story but I think it was revealed in the comic with Bastion and Torb?
worthy rose
And I doubt that Talon is a greater threat than the omnics
pliant sparrow
Which map is the largest?
peak escarp
worthy rose
Numbani?
sudden sequoia
Yeah and how many of those are under talons control their roots go deep.
peak escarp
Binary (the Bastion and Torb comic) came out in spring 2017
placid monolith
Ah okay
worthy rose
If Overwatch overstays its welcome it will be corrupted again, with such large organizations it is inevitable
peak escarp
Eichenwalde was introduced at Gamescom at the same time as The Last Bastion
which wasn't set on that map
worthy rose
You sure?
peak escarp
The Last Bastion is the only short so far to not be set on an existing map
lament prawn
it might be inevitable in a realistic sense, but we're talking about a pixar-ish stylized universe where characters can sort of have a destiny or purpose writing-wise
worthy rose
Cause on Starting Point On Attack, notice the forest behind it?
worthy rose
But its still in the map, even if its not playable part
sudden sequoia
I agree but Talon is basically the same as an overwatch that overstayed it’s welcome except they weren’t about saving the world like Overwatch was
peak escarp
it doesn't count
lament prawn
talon isn't there legally though, they dont care about the law
worthy rose
Overwatch should have disbanded when they defeated the omnics, that was their job. They decided not to and eventually they grew too big for their own good. That's why Mercy believes it's best it does not return the way it was
lament prawn
but with overwatch coming back regardless of legality, i think they're here to stay too
writing-wise i doubt they'll be shut down again
worthy rose
I think Mercy's point of view sheds an interesting light on Overwatch, as in it was an organization with a good cause, but after the Omnic Crisis it really was doing no favour to humanity
peak escarp
like any police organization without oversight, they began to expand their jurisdiction beyond what was originally intended
that's why Blackwatch was allowed to exist for so long without the public discovering it
sudden sequoia
You have that looming threat of talon and they succeeded in getting Overwatch shutdown meanwhile Majority of people don’t even know about talon. Overwatch was a threat to talon; the only one we know of.
lament prawn
winston told us exactly why the world needs them now, mercy's stance is that violence is no way to deal with the world's probems, but you'd need a little violence to take down talon - and that way talon cant cause multiples of that violence in the long run
worthy rose
I am not against the return of Overwatch per se, but it needs to disband once Talon is defeated
Yeah because then it serves no purpose
sudden sequoia
Absolutely or go into a sleeper state until another threat that calls for them arises
lament prawn
maybe they'll have an agreed upon happy ending where they go their separate ways and live a life of peace, but who's to say there wont be another talon? overwatch can just go on standby until they're needed once more
worthy rose
I'd say Mercy is just blind to Talon's activities. She will probably understand the importance of Overwatch once Talon attempts to kill her
I can't blame her since few people know of Talon's true threat
Talon getting defeated lore
Thats gonna take a lot of time release
sudden sequoia
I find it funny reaper essentially caused the shutdown of Overwatch by killing that talon guy in Rialto than becomes a part of talon makes you wonder if he was a part of talon during his Overwatch days as a sleeper agent
peak escarp
that's endgame lore - we won't get to that for a long time
Reyes didn't plan on killing Antonio
it was an impulse action that he tried to justify after
lament prawn
tbh even in the long run when the story has concluded, i dont see characters like widowmaker, sombra, or sigma dying. i think redemption/surrender/escape might be more likely for them
worthy rose
I'm one of those people who think that Reaper might be a double agent
He didn't kill Ana when he had the chance
peak escarp
he tried
lament prawn
i think he wanted her to see through his eyes and just show up at talon hq wearing all black and red
worthy rose
Impulse
sudden sequoia
I don’t know the cinematic definitely showed it as an impulse decision but that could of all been an act
worthy rose
Whats This Apocalypse hog speaking of?
peak escarp
the comic sets up that he had a plan
throughout the mission, McCree yells at him for not following the plan
worthy rose
Still A Lot Of Stuff We Dont Know
How Mcree Lost His Arm
peak escarp
Reyes (and even Reaper) is known for making plans and sticking to it, not being impulsive
worthy rose
There is a ton of fan theories about mccrees arm
peak escarp
Reyes is a planner and always has been
to spontaneously kill Antonio like that is out of character
which means he wasn't a double agent for Talon
worthy rose
Yeah mccree was clearly surprised about Reyes impulse
pliant sparrow
Any known reason why he might have suddenly changed his mind?
worthy rose
Nope
sudden sequoia
Acting out of his usual character only makes me think he was a double agent even more. Why do that? He had a plan and is known for sticking to them yet this time he didn’t and coincidentally led to the shutting down of overwatch
worthy rose
Maybe he started becoming a methodical person who sticks to the plan after the Antonio incident
peak escarp
my theory is that Moira's treatments (whatever they were) affected his impulse control
pliant sparrow
damn you beat me to it
worthy rose
Yeah thats mine too
peak escarp
so when Antonio provoked him, he acted on impulse rather than staying calm
worthy rose
Makes sense
sudden sequoia
Granted if I was in reapers shoes I would’ve shot that smug bastard in the face too
peak escarp
in the comic, McCree wanted to kill Antonio and Reyes said they needed him alive
he clearly had a plan to kidnap Antonio and Antonio knew this
Antonio felt so confident that he would not be harmed that he felt he could provoke Reyes without reprocussion
worthy rose
And then bam
peak escarp
I imagine he was very shocked when he got a shotgun to the face
sudden sequoia
Does talon know that reaper is Reyes?
peak escarp
the grunts probably don't
Doomfist seems to
Sombra does, because she's Sombra
Moira does
not sure about the rest of the council - we haven't seen them interact
worthy rose
Probably they know, or they wouldn't just offer the job to a random terrorist
They might have made research into his past before accepting him as one of them
peak escarp
they've hired a lot of people just looking for work
pliant sparrow
Baptiste
worthy rose
In the Inner Council?
peak escarp
he probably had to earn his position on the council
they wouldn't hire him directly there
pliant sparrow
Doomfist made him part of the inner council didn’t he?
peak escarp
we don't know
pliant sparrow
Thought I read that somewhere
peak escarp
Doomfist was in jail when Reaper joined Talon
but he could have been pulling the strings from behind bars
sudden sequoia
So they’re just cool with one of their more notable enemies joining their ranks? I don’t know they seem to careful for that especially knowing about his impulse control. Maybe he had to prove his loyalty to them by getting overwatch shutdown by bring blackwatch into the public eye
peak escarp
the impulse control issue was a recent thing (as of Retribution)
Reyes wasn't Reaper until after the Swiss HQ explosion 2 years later
sudden sequoia
Yes but Moira was there so if it really was an impulse thing talon would know about it
pliant sparrow
Reaper is hunting down ex Overwatch agents, that aids talon so why wouldn’t they help him
worthy rose
Yeah
peak escarp
but like I said, even as Reaper he is a planner
he's got several voice lines about sticking to plans or making plans
sudden sequoia
Right I’m just saying it’s possible he was a double agent towards the tail end of Overwatchs existence
peak escarp
the impulse control issue was a one-time thing
worthy rose
So is it mentioned that it was an impulse control problem or is it a theory?
pliant sparrow
Theory
sudden sequoia
That one time turned out to be detrimental to overwatch marking it a very good thing for talon it just seems very coincidental to me that the one time he does have an impulse issue that it turned out the way it did
peak escarp
Moira's reaction at that moment is worth mentioning
pliant sparrow
What did she do?
worthy rose
Why would he betray Overwatch to be a double agent for Talon? What would he gain from that?
placid monolith
Oh wow. I went to see what fancontent in stories there are for my main Brigitte and it's pretty much dominated by romance stories of her and D.Va.
sudden sequoia
Well he’s on a ex overwatch killing spree as of now and was clearly fed up with the way Overwatch was being managed so there’s his motivation
worthy rose
Back when he killed Antonio he was content with his position in Overwatch
pliant sparrow
She seems pleased with it
worthy rose
He liked working from the shadows and wasn't angry that Morrison was chosen over him
pliant sparrow
Genji’s just there like “alright, time to kill some shit”
peak escarp
I think she wasn't expecting this, but is pleased to see the side effects of her work
a sort of "oh, that's interesting" reaction
placid monolith
What happened to Genji exactly again?
sudden sequoia
Uhhh I don’t know about that that wasn’t my take away from the comics but I’ve been wrong before
worthy rose
He almost died against Hanzo and Mercy patched him up
peak escarp
Genji was almost killed by Hanzo for not wanting to help lead their criminal family
placid monolith
Ah
pliant sparrow
Mercy stabilised him
sudden sequoia
Thanks @peak escarp I didn’t notice that before and is quite interesting
peak escarp
throughout the mission she keeps asking Reyes about his condition, if he's experiencing any side-effects from her treatment
she doesn't care one way or the other, she's just pleased to see results
pliant sparrow
All she cares for is results
worthy rose
I find it very hard to believe he would join Talon as a double agent after they almost killed Lacroix, who was a close friend of Reyes
high thunder
is sigma a new or old talon member?
pliant sparrow
We don’t know
high thunder
ak
high thunder
how did talon even find him
sudden sequoia
Maybe them having lacroix made him be a double agent or triple agent depending how it all plays out. This is all speculation and at face value we gather it was an impulse thing especially given reapers appearance during that scene man didn’t look like he had sleep in weeks.
pliant sparrow
Doubt he needs it
peak escarp
another interesting thing to note about that scene
worthy rose
Oh I do think that Reaper could be a double agent right now, but back when he was leader of Blackwatch? I doubt it
sudden sequoia
Is that just a lighting thing or intentional we may never know
pliant sparrow
It’s more dark -light brown
peak escarp
(also damn he needs some sleep)
pliant sparrow
(In a coffin?)
pliant sparrow
Could easily have been a slip by blizzard
peak escarp
what do you mean?
worthy rose
Or moira side effects
peak escarp
eyes don't just change colour on their own - that has to be done intentionally
sudden sequoia
That top shot though his bottom of his eyes kinda have a green hue to it so I don’t know
high thunder
apparently there's a sigma voice line where he's like 'i saw you where at this cabin last night(something like that) do you want to go again with me' who do people think he's talking to?
peak escarp
I saw you at Luna's Cabaret the other evening. Would you care to go together sometime?
high thunder
YEAH THAT
peak escarp
he could be talking to Widowmaker, who is apparently a regular there
peak escarp
(French): Back again, Madame Guillard? It’s good to see you.
Danielle Guillard is the name Widowmaker is using (you can see it on the boarding pass on her desk in Chateau Guillard)
worthy rose
So what could that mean?
peak escarp
so Widowmaker is a regular at the Cabaret - Luna recognizes her
it's hard to say without the other half of Sigma's interactions
I wonder why she picked the name Danielle
sudden sequoia
Interesting Guillard is her family name but why use your family name with a fake name
peak escarp
she moved in to her family's manor
maybe they'd be less suspicious if a family member claimed it?
sudden sequoia
Maybe but aside from the blue skin her appearance hasn’t changed much wouldn’t people recognize her as Amelie
worthy rose
Probably not? Like she's a known ballet dancer but that's implying everyone in the world knows and is into ballet to know about her
I would say a good chunk of ppl probably aren't into ballet and thus wouldn't know about her but as "blue skin lady"
sudden sequoia
True but I imagine claiming a chateau isn’t as simple as saying my last name is guillard so it’s mine
Somebody had to do research somewhere
I guess you can’t really argue logic and rationale when it comes to fictional lore
peak escarp
a lot of things in fiction just work because the plot needs it to
worthy rose
That's why fiction is fiction
sudden sequoia
This is very true could easily say because talon made it happen
sudden sequoia
Or had a twin named Danielle for all we know
peak escarp
but then wouldn't the real Danielle Guillard get suspicious about someone using her name?
frosty shell
Maybe she killed Danielle Guillard
sudden sequoia
So many of these characters deserve their own comic serializations to really flesh out the lore so I’m not up late at night speculating but they must have a plan for it
peak escarp
I do wish they'd release more content
but new comics are apparently in production, and they're still making new shorts and new heroes and new maps
so I guess I just have to be patient
spice hatch
Where are y'all from and which character do you identify to ?
peak escarp
I relate to McCree quite a bit, the way he doesn't think much of himself
sudden sequoia
That’s for sure blizzard is all about the long haul when it comes to their story which is a good thing since the story we do get is usually very well done aside from s few outliers
spice hatch
I relate to Moira because I share her view on scientific research
peak escarp
. . .
spice hatch
??
sudden sequoia
McCree is one of the most interesting in my opinion being a lone wolf with the checkered past and now living on his own terms it’d be interesting to see the greater picture he’s working towards if there is one at all
last inlet
Can't really say that I relate to them since they're all pretty out there
But I like Soldier probably the most
peak escarp
relating to Moira's view on scientific research is kinda a bad thing
she's very amoral
spice hatch
I think that if you're willing to give your body to science, if there's strict watch on those experiments, I think we could discover new things
sudden sequoia
I can relate to soldiers grumpy side “young punks get off my lawn”
spice hatch
I would like to know to what extent the human body can be used
peak escarp
Moira doesn't really do it for the greater good though - she just does it for science
she's like GladOS
spice hatch
I get along the part of her vision of sciences where we are stoped by moral rules and we could discover new things by removing those
but imo, only if it's under strict control
clever silo
I mean
spice hatch
I'm sure those furry fans would agree ahah
clever silo
We don’t really know what she did exactly
teal meadow
but why a cold assassin like amelie would go to a cabaret?
clever silo
So it’s kinda hard to say
Like yeah, we know she made Reyes into Reaper
But
We don’t know how she did it
Or what even Reaper is
spice hatch
yeah Nebulak, sure but we know that she felt shackled by moral laws, that's why she joined blackwatch
clever silo
No
spice hatch
that's the part we know and that's the part I agree to
peak escarp
she was invited to join Blackwatch by Reyes, who wanted her expertise in genetics to help him with his own issues
spice hatch
Okay right, what i meant is that she had to do her experiments out of the scientific scene view (idk if it makes sense)
she had to hide to do her experiments
because moral laws didnt allowed her to do so
Am I wrong ?
iron plume
she was disgraced in the scientific community yes
spice hatch
So she thinks that moral is a barrier for progress, right ?
peak escarp
yes
spice hatch
scientific progress at least
peak escarp
well
spice hatch
that's where I get along her, that's all
peak escarp
ethics, not morals
spice hatch
yeah right
peak escarp
but people mix those up all the time
clever silo
We don’t know what she even did
lament prawn
i dont think she cares if you're willing or not
if a drugged body is handed to her, i think she'd go all out
clever silo
How can you agree with her on something you don’t know about
spice hatch
We know that she thinks that ethics stopped the scientific progress, right ?
clever silo
Yes
lament prawn
im not saying she's factually wrong, but i still agree that ethically it can wait until results are more accurate and more certain to work
iron plume
yeah, morality questions about her modifications aside, she's not doing too well on the scientific method thing