because her heartbeat is slowed
#lore-discussion
iron plume
tough ridge
That makes sense
fair widget
" She was given extensive training in the covert arts, and then her physiology was altered, drastically slowing her heart, which turned her skin cold and blue and numbed her ability to experience human emotion."
read her bio on the website!
it explains her entire back story pretty well and quickly
crisp kayak
I remember Widowmaker's trailer. The infra sight enlarged her
granite gazelle
Ehh??
fair widget
yeah i remember that
in the days of release widows ultimate made her character models ass bigger..... not lore though
her story is one of the best @tough ridge you should definitely read her bio
granite gazelle
Yes
tough ridge
I read anas then started on the comics, let me go read widows
granite gazelle
Actually idk
fair widget
it's like lady gaga being called lady gaga and not her real name
stage name, hero name, alias
sly socket
Why doesn't Rein or Torb have hero names then?
fair widget
not sure if they ever explained why it is mercy specifically but i suppose its fitting... shes a very very caring healer
they didnt want one? i dont know
symmetra is called symmetra instead of satya vaswani because vishkar gave her that name
deft peak
maybe its just not mentioned we don't know
fair widget
soldier: 76 is called soldier: 76 and not jack morrison to hide his identity and operate as a new man
theres different reasons for all
ashe is just ashe cuz shes called ashe
lol
reef thicket
i hate it though when
characters get names that noone calls them by
like
Hammond
who the fuck called hammond Wrecking Ball?
calls*
dire timber
the Junkers
sly socket
I do lol
reef thicket
...
fair widget
well at least he's univerally known by both
deft peak
i just say hamster
fair widget
the junkers gave him that name
reef thicket
i say hammond always
fair widget
his name is hammond
reef thicket
yeah but
the junkers arent everyone
so most people will prob end up knowing him by hammon
d
like all of overwatch will
cuz of winston
terse oak
@gritty sparrow no shitposting here please
fair widget
the real reason is because jeff though "hammond" was less cool than "wrecking ball"
imagine if instead of DOOM FIST it was just akande
reef thicket
fair widget
lol
sly socket
.>
reef thicket
i still prefer Hammond over WR though
also i hate ingame when people call me
.. BALL
fair widget
yeah i think hammond would have worked fine
but wrecking ball ties in with his lore
so
fair widget
^^^
sly socket
I just say Wrecking Ball cuz it's the name the pop up on the hero screen lol. But I do prefer Hammond
fair widget
he's probably referred to as hammond because its easier to say than wrecking ball
i think we all know of the infamous "monkey monkey monkey" instead of winston
gritty sparrow
@terse oak woops sorry~
weary turtle
Holy **** that was a lot of shitposting
In pharas comic anubis was characterised as an old program.
When do you think it was made?
And while i still remember to ask. Could talon have started the omniums during the omnicrisis (if no who did (the omnics, sombra organization? (Inception)))
peak escarp
we don't know if Talon was around during the Omnic Crisis
their earliest mention is during the Oslo bombing that provoked a Blackwatch response in Venice
pliant sparrow
They seem to have been established by then though
clever sinew
yea but the hamster still comes from some kind of robot mother becaue of the leaked sinematic
peak escarp
what
limpid agate
@clever sinew Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
peak escarp
Junkrat is a fan of Wrecking Ball
weary turtle
Beat me to it :D
sly socket
Is there in game dialogue about that?
sly socket
I wanna see Junkrat fanboying over Wrecking Ball.
weary turtle
I cant compete with this speed xD
peak escarp
I want an interaction for it
sly socket
Same.
I wonder if there would ever be a story mode... besides Archives I guess.
It probably be pretty difficult to do that at this point
peak escarp
Archives will do for now
weary turtle
I have wished for something else too
peak escarp
would be nice to have access to those missions year-round though
even just as custom games
wind palm
Some type of single player story mode would be great, but im not complaining
weary turtle
I still want estimates to when anubis could have been made
And what could have activated the omniums
peak escarp
probably during the crisis
and nobody knows what activated the omniums
it's a mystery in-universe as well
it will probably be a big plot point later on
weary turtle
But speculation and possibilities
peak escarp
Junkrat's secret might have something to do with it
weary turtle
Just omnics themselves, the thing sombra is uncovering, talon (or something)
True
Aliens :D (hey you newer know and i think they will eventually add aliens when all else is done :D)
iron plume
which is why we have roided up hamsters in mechs
but yeah it's not gonna be off earth
there's enough things to deal with on one planet
peak escarp
genetically enhanced animals are modern science
Overwatch just extrapolates that to a more advanced state
weary turtle
yeah that would be a last effort thing
regal coyote
but yeah lets hope we dont get TOO many of those
weary turtle
How long do you have to hang around to become trusted (able to command the bot etc)?
regal coyote
once in a while an animal is cool but this is OVERwatch
not furrywatch
Just say NO to a tracer counterpart hedgehog or some ninja frog or some electric rat
weary turtle
The animals were both from lunar colony so i dont think well have that many more in the future
regal coyote
i dont mind one nonhuman character per year really but no more than that
yes that include toasters like omnics or other robots, animals, some hybrid whatever they cook up, etc
peak escarp
toasters
weary turtle
More omnics would be nice (and meabye even ones with relationships with humans like in alive)
weary turtle
^
Come on they are relevant to the story
regal coyote
they are supposed to be part of the antagonist though
but so far all omnic we have a face of are of the good guys, except Maxi
weary turtle
Nah their normal citizens (except in brittain and places like russia)
And they are a core part of ow (the aftermath of omnicrisis and all that)
regal coyote
but also the ones who cause the whole omnic war
and with the omnic starting the war again
iron plume
the omnics themselves never started it
regal coyote
a huge part of them would be being the antag
weary turtle
Well something activated the omniums but we dont know what
Not nessesarily omnics themselves (but the omniums created an omnic army)
Right? :D
pliant sparrow
Could the omniums be conscious themselves?
weary turtle
That is why it came as such a surprise when these defunct, dismantled omniums woke themselves back up and immediately launched a military campaign against all of humanity.
This was a war many countries thought they were prepared to fight. But no single country, no matter how powerful its military, could permanently shut down a single omnium. The adaptability of robots, once celebrated by humanity, had become a tactical nightmare. Worst of all, there were no demands from the omnics. There was no ideological reason for their aggression. They simply attacked, and we did not understand why.
This made me immediatelly think of talon
weary turtle
Since they seek conflict (and thats from "overwatch is back")
regal coyote
it is proof that humans CAN shutdown an omnium permanently
and yes it is doen by a bunch of madmax style degenerates even
weary turtle
And arent omniums just factoryes? Do they even have an advanced ai?
I guess since the newsreporter didnt question it
But knowing blizzard there's something else to it
But how long does one have to hang around to get the trusted features?
weary turtle
I think the newsreporter would have thrown a little conspirasy theory if he/she (stupid langague) didnt think they would be capable of going rogue by themselves
And according to the article i think we can deduct that the omniums are (mabye) connected "dismantled omniums woke themselves back up and immediately launched a military campaign" (right?) (Does that even make sense?)
(For them to be able to do things in sync?)
lone latch
What does the OW community think about the Soldier being gay thing
twilit nacelleBOT
Short Stories:
Bastet: https://bit.ly/2QuXHmM
News Reports:
Fading Glory; Jack Morrison: http://bit.ly/2f9TPq4
Experimental Weapon Stolen: http://bit.ly/2fMrKsj
Lucio's Synaesthesia World Tour: http://bit.ly/2flja2U
LumériCo: http://bit.ly/1XAJfd1
Overwatch is Back: http://bit.ly/1TAWebT
LumériCo Revealed: http://bit.ly/2e6P5oj
Portero Steps Down: http://bit.ly/2fk8Bes
Efi Oladele Interview: http://bit.ly/2miMZkT
Horizon Lunar Colony: http://bit.ly/2reMSKx
Attack on Helix: http://bit.ly/2tn45mk
Oslo Attack: https://bit.ly/2uHKXUr
Other Blog Posts:
Mei's Adventure: http://bit.ly/2fMxRg4
Oasis Travel Tips: http://bit.ly/2iPTM4K
Torb's Letter: http://bit.ly/2HK4CWa
Venice Declassified: https://bit.ly/2Hs807B
dire timber
"Their massive factories of automated construction machines and self-improving software algorithms were patented, marketed as "omniums," and installed on every continent."
peak escarp
it's the "self improving algorithms"
they learned too much too fast - it's a common thing in scifi stories
lone latch
So its like Ultron?
Too much information that led to the AI thinking humanity was the issue
valid shell
The MCU didn't invent the singularity.
iron plume
"Robot learns about humans and causes punishment" isn't the same thing as singularity
and they didn't claim MCU did, it's just a well known comparison
worthy rose
Ultron has replaced skynet :(
frosty shell
Ashe is given the nickname "Calamity" in her bio but I have a feeling people call her "Calamity Ashe" and not just "Calamity"
umbral fiber
Skynet: Wanted domination and machine rule. Ultron: Initially believed the Avengers as the source of Earth's woes, then shifted to a god-complex of rewriting the earth in his image (and then degraded to a skynet plan). Omnics revolted against human masters.
worthy rose
Actually, I think Skynet was made to create peace, and identified humans as the problem. But we're getting off topic a little.
dire timber
right now, the reason for the Omnic Crisis remains a mystery
though I certainly hope it won't always be so
keen blade
thanos snap 
untold timber
reminder that it was never specifically said the first doomfist was ever killed (the savior) he could be a tank
dire timber
it's kind of implied that he was though
otherwise the scourge would be ill-suited to ever claim the title
umbral fiber
....The Scourge's title could be he ursurped The Savior without killing him?
(NOt mercy, just not good enough to kill the Savior)
untold timber
Savior: retires. Scourge is his apprentice. Scourge gets the title. Soon becomes corrupt. Savior cant stop him/too old without cybernetics, etc and then akande comes in
hearty vessel
wait Soldier is gay?!?
valid shell
@hearty vessel Correct.
dire timber
his dog tag also identifies him as catholic 👀
peak escarp
what does Jeff Kaplan have to do with it?
untold timber
I do wonder what chris metzen has to think about what chu did. He made soldier in 1998 as a comic character concept
valid shell
Metzen's chill.
sly socket
@untold timber yeah I was thinking the same thing earlier. They must have discuss it a while back. I'm pretty sure he's okay with it.
dawn knot
everyone who is gay is also homosexual, sooo.....
dire timber
??
worthy rose
They're literally synonyms
static saddle
Soldier can also be bi
flint briar
i believe he was confirmed gay specifically by the writer, if i recall correctly
static saddle
Yeah no trace leads to the fact that he ever loved a girl
flint briar
i was referring more to the twitter post sent by the writer saying he's gay, but thats also true
valid shell
@static saddle @flint briar https://twitter.com/westofhouse/status/1082394625837428736
Twitter
He might have had relationships with women while figuring out his sexuality, but Soldier's gay af.
tranquil coral
The fanfics can live on
weary turtle
Are the ages of the characters updated on wikies etc when the plot advances for a year?
Or when (storywise) are the current ages?
iron plume
The ages are "in the present" and haven't been updated yet
deft peak
There's no confirmation of any relationships he had with girls. There IS confirmation that he has had a relationship (or maybe more before) with a man. The fact that he's been confirmed to identify as gay also rules out the possibility of 76 being bi. So let's just accept them as they are. I guess with fanfiction the likes of ''Moircy'' etc being a thing those kinds of imaginings can persist. But canonically speaking Soldier is and always was gay.
weary turtle
We only know that hes gay now and what binge said
regal coyote
according to lord chu Jack is gay not bi, so yea he is hoomosexual
and he got dumped by vincent who got married, but we dont know if vincent is gay or bi in the end, so vincent can well be married to either a guy or a female.
there is a chance of vincent having a heir
Despite the "light a candle" comment he can well be alive
fair widget
there’s still a chance for vincent to have an heir whilst married to another man though
not sure if that’s relevant in any way to the lore
also yeah i’m not sure he’s dead
because jack said “they ARE happy” and not they were
but i’m not 100%
iron plume
he's not dead
there's a romantic meaning to "keep candles lit" as well
I thought it was about a memorial at first too, but that's not what they meant
weary turtle
Although binges comment makes sense too "He might have had relationships with women while figuring out his sexuality, but Soldier's gay af."
fair widget
well yeah that’s how it goes
some people know their whole life and some people figure it out. not extremely relevant to much lore wise though
deft peak
theorycrafting and fanfic isn't the point of this channel.. lore specific discussion only, its in the channel header
So Soldier is gay, always has been 100% gay. Many gay people afaik and in fact some of whom I have known in my life have always known they were gay their entire lives since adolescence. So soldier identifying as gay means he was always gay, unless stated otherwise (which hasn't been stated). Speculation as to whether he might have been with women falls into well.. speculation and non-canon. So that's not a topic of discussion here in this channel. Lore only.
iron plume
we've been done with this topic for a while, why are you dredging it up again?
and for the last request, baseless speculation is off-topic. we have some hints towards what might have caused it and those are an interesting point of discussion, of an event that's directly massively affected the history of the overwatch universe as a whole
weary turtle
As a counterpoint i could have phraised it like "what groups or entities have goals that would be furthered by causing the crisis"
People exept me have only offered the ai of mentioned omniums
But if you have something else to discuss i would gladly change the topic since in fact i myself have offered a couple different options (without anyone discussing about them)
dull raft
Hi! Anywhere/ any video where I can get a recap on the lore? Vids, comics, the whole shhebang
graceful nimbus
So Soldier 76 is confirmed gay
reef thicket
Yes
timid eagle
@graceful nimbus Yes.
tough ridge
Thoughts on who next hero might be?
graceful nimbus
That kind of annoys me. It's whatever. I don't even play the game
weary turtle
@dull raft Its propably easyer to just watch the cinematics, read the comics, of arcles atleast overwatch is back and id reccommend reading bastet too
dull raft
any chronology guide?
weary turtle
You can find everything in the pins of this lore channel
Youre good of just first seeing them in publishing order (apparently pins are in that order)
Having a glimps of individual character lore can be enlightening too
And theres apparently a chronology guide in the pins too
dull raft
Ayy thanks so much for the detailed help :>)
weary turtle
No prob. Im here all day (not true but atleast i read everything :D )
limpid agate
@tough ridge I've been speculating Hamid Faisal for a while now
But Bastet shot him up as my number 1
tough ridge
And Hamid Faisal is?
limpid agate
Archeologist at Petra who has ties with 2-3 other maps.
tough ridge
Hmmm another symetra type character?
limpid agate
?
dire timber
nope
tough ridge
Isnt sym an archeologist
tough ridge
Oh my bad
limpid agate
Archeologist is like
tough ridge
Yea i know got them mixed yp
limpid agate
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider) and Indiana Jones
tough ridge
Thats gotta be another dps then, or maybe tank
limpid agate
tough ridge
I want another main tank
weary turtle
I want an omnic at some point after that
tough ridge
What makes you think this is the next hero @limpid agate
weary turtle
Does it count as an omnic?
limpid agate
Dont know
You can call her one and it would be fine
But she may not technically be one.
She probably is though
dire timber
Echo has not been described as an omnic, and she is much unlike the omnics we know of
limpid agate
^
But in universe, people use the word Omnic as if it were generic. People may call her one in universe even if its not accurate.
weary turtle
But because of my bias i would prefer one more like the ones we know :P
limpid agate
Oooh
weary turtle
Is echo made by ow?
dire timber
we don't know
limpid agate
we dont know if she is even related to OW
dire timber
she is familiar with OW though
weary turtle
How could mcree know about her in the first place
dire timber
she's an old friend
weary turtle
But from where 🤔
limpid agate
@tough ridge My expectation on Hamid is based on how he was teased (similar to other map based teasers in the past like Hammond/Sombra. Very explicit and in your face about Hamid existing). Then for him being 30, is based on him popping up in Bastet in conversation. Blizz likes to introduce characters and make them pop up again before releasing them
weary turtle
Propably ow
I dont know if hamid could be in combat but they could add someone close to him
Or just have an indiana jones :P
is helix an international security company?
limpid agate
yes
weary turtle
Could we get some ex ow now helix people in the future?
limpid agate
Maybe
Would be an interesting development
They can do so much with Helix
Ex-Ow now helix
Current Helix anti-OW
Instead they're just a company in charge of Overwatch's old stuff that's too dangerous for the world
weary turtle
Is there a reason why most of the people we know arent in helix?
Like some leadership shenannigans and difference from ow
twilit nacelleBOT
To learn more about the heroes of Overwatch, please visit https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/
granite gazelle
Ehh?
limpid agate
I just used it for the link
weary turtle
Is helix more limited compares to the rights of ex ow?
limpid agate
helix is secuirty
tough ridge
Wasnt Pharah in Helix?
limpid agate
yes
tough ridge
And shes Ana’s daughter right?
limpid agate
Yes
tough ridge
Im learning!
weary turtle
Wait i somehow fail to see the difference :D
limpid agate
Yes.
Ana, Soldier, Reaper, and Mei were "dead".
Reinhardt wanted to become an independant crusader rather than security
Mercy wanted to help people rather than security
McCree is a criminal
Moira joined Talon
Genji went to find peace
Torbjorn just wants to clean up his mess, not do security for what is contained already
Tracer and Winston though, no idea why.
Which is why none joined helix
weary turtle
yeah mainly tought of traicer and winston
tracer propably doesent want to move too much since i think weve only seen her in great brittain
(right?) and emily etc
tough ridge
Id assume shes spending time with her gf
limpid agate
Makes sense
weary turtle
and winston is busy collecting the old group (that havent apparently joined helix for their own reasons)
before that he was experimenting with gadgets like the energy field he uses against reaper
limpid agate
Only in the present. Its been 5 years
weary turtle
i think the experiments qualify for the years
genji was with zen and has propably some business of his own (like he said something about things changing in the end of dragons cinematic)
and like speculated propably answered to recall
and i quess that if you strech it reaper could have targetted the helix ow members first (kind of makes sense for talon)
past panther
iron plume
they're a private company
so more like Blackwater or something like that
except not evil
weary turtle
So what makes it so much different from ow?... i didnt quite catch that
lean prawn
weary turtle
And for jeffs sake, how long does one have to hang around to get trusted rank
I guess but is helix so different (exept with actual attack regiments)
And meaby more you pay us we deliver
granite gazelle
Isnt trusted perms a vote thing?
weary turtle
I have no idea
iron plume
basically
limpid agate
Its up to the staff. If you have questions DM @sullen pagoda
weary turtle
Now that thats out of the way. Are there major differences between helix and former ow (i didnt quite catch that previously :D )
limpid agate
What's the difference between the army and the security at the bank
worthy rose
what?
iron plume
Helix is a private security company
weary turtle
I guess they require more payment (and have different rights)
iron plume
Overwatch was a UN task force
pliant sparrow
So did soldier steal his rifle from helix?
iron plume
no
weary turtle
What do you think happened to the giant omnic thing after the comic of torbjörn and sven
iron plume
looted?
worthy rose
Probably taken by the government for scrap
worthy rose
Actually, since it was supposed to be building things, I think they might have fixed it up and put it back to work
If it was scrapped, it probably went through the normal ways an outdated one of those would.
weary turtle
They could have turned it to scrap while agreement of ownership couldnt have been formed
peak escarp
I'm attempting to plot out all the lore on a calendar so we can see just how much time has passed
most of it is based off guesses, since we don't have exact dates for much
weary turtle
The world could always use more heroes
peak escarp
I was thinking of adding lines to mark each hero's involvement in the timeline, but that might be too cluttered
I tried to line up events that involved the same heroes
weary turtle
And that could be just checked by reading the things you list
Hero abilityes are not up to date
Hanzos tazer arrow and homing arrow and genjis smokebomb from dragons cinematic
peak escarp
I think they're only listing in-game abilities that have been seen in the lore
not all abilities seen in the lore
weary turtle
And have we seen moira orbs?
Well they have storm arrow and scatter arrow besides this is lore channel not gameplay channel
The newbies need to be schooled
peak escarp
both have been in the game, so my point still stands
weary turtle
But still a lore channel and have we seen moiras ball?
"LIST OF WEAPONS AND ABILITIES FEATURED IN LORE"
Atleast change the name
peak escarp
he
peak escarp
just use "they" if you aren't sure
weary turtle
Thats a plural tho
peak escarp
singular they
iron plume
weapons and abilities are what we see in-game
this is a list of those featured in lore
weary turtle
Featured in lore (like cinematics or comics) not gameplay
Either needs a namechange or added things that have been canonically used
iron plume
it's a list of game's abilities featured in lore
if you're listing everything heroes have done in canon, where do you draw the line
dire timber
@weary turtle what do you mean?
iron plume
they take issue with the list of weapons/abilities featured in lore called "weapons and abilities featured in lore"
because it doesn't include other things we've seen heroes do in lore
most of which we don't even have names for
dire timber
I mean, it does help clear up which of the abilities are something that heroes have actually been shown doing
frosty shell
Overwatch was probably a lot more powerful than current UN peacekeepers
Also, though it's probably unlikely, I still think that Volskaya met Zarya a little bit after Infiltration, but was just wearing the same clothes and earring
remote thorn
So like, when does Zen get any lore
peak escarp
when he becomes relevant
pliant sparrow
I noticed, when all the faces are flying by on recall after Winston activates the recall, that Echo’s image seems to be one of those that fly by
peak escarp
pliant sparrow
t
peak escarp
see the difference?
pliant sparrow
Yeah
peak escarp
probably a robot with the same/similar model
pliant sparrow
Thanks for clearing that up
peak escarp
but the one in recall looks more masculine (thicker neck, heavier features) than Echo
cunning ledge
Yo did I miss a discussion on my list
If anyone has suggestions for it feel free to ping me
limpid agate
Which list?
limpid agate
Moiras grasp was in Retribution
cunning ledge
Ah, the intro cutscene
cunning ledge
Also I say whenever
It’s horrible on mobile so I can’t right now
But soon
Thanks for the heads up
limpid agate
vast moth
limpid agate
Mai Natsume Discord
peak escarp
recent sightings of each hero around the world
mostly done because I wanted to compare the paths of Zarya and Sombra and . . .
peak escarp
oh right
I missed that
thanks
I had to guess on the locations of a few places, like Lijiang Towers
and Junkertown
iron plume
I think Lijiang would be on the east coast
Shanghai-ish, where most of their big business cities are
peak escarp
I just used the location of the actual city of Lijiang, which is in the Yunnan province
iron plume
I doubt that's it but I see the logic
peak escarp
a lot of heroes have been to Hanamura
limpid agate
Where's Xi'an
peak escarp
Genji and Hanzo (of course), but also McCree, Junkrat and Roadhog, and Zarya
limpid agate
Mei is fun there
peak escarp
I didn't add "base of operations" locations
just places they've been to in comics/articles/shorts/etc.
peak escarp
that was pre-fall
I'm just focusing on their activities around recall
honestly it's not a very good map - it's not high res, the colours are too similar, there's no legend of what colour is who, and it doesn't show what direction they moved
it's just a quick reference
peak escarp
people are complaining that Bastet is bad writing because "if Jack has accelerated healing he wouldn't have scars"
healing faster can minimize scars, but if the injury is severe enough, there would still be a scar
timid eagle
I'm starting to think people are complaining just for the sake of it.
peak escarp
people just can't be happy
funny side note: while looking up what causes scarring and how to avoid scars, I found this gem:
Drinking: Alcohol dehydrates both the body and skin, which decreases your overall state of health. While your wound is healing, avoid alcohol and focus on non-caffeinated beverages.
Jack needs to lay off the whiskey
valid shell
Scarring is literally the healing process.
Regardless of how fast it is.
It's like saying, "if your car is so fast then why does it use gas?"
peak escarp
I mean, looking at this after care guide for scars, I can tell Jack isn't the type to do any of this
he seems like the type to get stitched up and then just ignore it until it heals
timid eagle
It's possible that he's been doing this for so long that he doesn't care anymore.
Maybe back in his salad days, he was more willing to follow and be obedient.
But sometime after his fight with Gabe, something in him had snapped.
peak escarp
Ana said she didn't recognize some of his scars - he definitely hasn't been sitting still in the 5 years since he "died"
timid eagle
True.
peak escarp
I really want to know what happened to Jack after the HQ explosion
did he get out on his own? did someone save him? did he go right into vigilanteing, or did he try to have a normal life first?
timid eagle
Back during the crisis, I always assumed Jack used to be the following: A nice guy, a bit square, semi-serious, stern at all times, but almost always even-tempered and fair.
But something about that changed, as during the Uprising event, he became weary and worn.
peak escarp
he was under a lot of stress, being accused of all sorts of horrible things
and he had to cover for Reyes, which can't have been easy
timid eagle
Especially when Reyes was running Blackwatch.
I can't imagine what he was like during the crisis.
We know what he looked like with his Soldier: 24 skin.
timid eagle
I know.
But I can't imagine he could've ran the original team the way he did with Blackwatch with such recklessness and "Thinking off the seat of my pants" type of military strategy.
peak escarp
they did use guerrilla warfare against the omnics
seems like that's a lot like Blackwatch tactics
but even in Blackwatch Reyes made plans and thought things through
he wasn't always reckless
the thing with Antonio was out of character for him - McCree even says so
timid eagle
All the more reason that I hope we can turn back the clock and see what Gabe was like during or close-to-the-end of the crisis.
I know, I know. They have to change A LOT to make that work.
But it would be a great way to see the original strike team back in their prime.
peak escarp
(I think recklessness/impulsiveness was one of the first side-effects of Moira's treatments)
timid eagle
(And hunger was a minor side-affect.)
Then again, I assumed the hunger became a bigger issue when he became more vampiric later on.
peak escarp
maybe it was a different sort of empty feeling that he mistook for hunger because he didn't know any different
worthy rose
Didn't Moira only experiment on him after the Omnic Crisis days?
peak escarp
yes
she started working on him about 9 years before present
before that, he was level-headed, made plans and used tactics and strategy to accomplish missions
he even made a detailed plan when they went after Antonio, only to throw it all out the window (literally) when the moment came
timid eagle
Yeah, I noticed Moria looked incredibly smug after Gabe blew Antonio away.
peak escarp
I wouldn't say smug . . . more like satisfied that she was seeing results
but yeah
or maybe she was pleased at McCree getting angry . . . she could have been trying to drive a wedge between them since McCree didn't like her
peak escarp
she does spend the whole mission taking his side, being the only one in his corner, etc.
kind of a "devil on the shoulder" situation
very manipulative behaviour
timid eagle
Meanwhile, Genji was sulking and McCree was trying to be Gabe's words of reason.
peak escarp
I'm kinda disappointed Genji was so quiet during the mission
but I guess he was just there to be a weapon
he didn't even know who Antonio was
timid eagle
Well, it probably wasn't that long when he got his prosthetics.
Along with being rescued by Overwatch during that time Hanzo had taken him out to a sushi restaurant.
timid eagle
He even said himself that the only reason he agreed to join the organization was so he could walk again, and that bummed me out.
peak escarp
the way he put it, it seemed like Overwatch rescued him and got him stabilized, and then gave him their deal
he could live as he was, a cripple but alive, or he could help them take down the Shimadas in exchange for an upgraded body
a lot of people are mad that Overwatch made him a weapon against his will, but it's obvious from this that Genji chose to become weaponized
timid eagle
I agree.
And poor McCree.
He basically had his one of his mentors turn a nasty leaf.
peak escarp
"They tore our family apart."
Winston's words are true even before the fall of Overwatch
I blame Moira for everything
timid eagle
Moira is only one component.
There were many factors that caused the organization to crumble.
peak escarp
I still consider Moira to be the spark that set everything off
if Reyes hadn't hired her, she wouldn't have affected Reyes' self-control and the mission to capture Antonio would have gone according to plan
killing Antonio got Blackwatch exposed, which started investigations into Overwatch which snowballed into a full inquiry and ended with the Petras Act
hiring Moira behind Morrison's back also eroded the trust between Reyes and Morrison, and IMO was the start of the deterioration of their friendship, which led to the fight during the HQ explosion
and if you want to go even further, I think Moira was responsible for Widowmaker's physiological changes, thus making Moira indirectly responsible for Ana's "death" - without Ana there to mediate between Reyes and Morrison, their friendship couldn't hold up
if Reyes hadn't hired Moira, Blackwatch would not have been exposed, Overwatch would not have been shut down, and Morrison and Reyes would still be friends
it's possible something else could have caused the downfall of Overwatch, but this is just what I think
new lore always gets me excited about theories
I hope we get to learn more about Gabe's family
and I want Fareeha to talk to her mother dammit
and I want McCree to come face to face with the Reaper and just know
timid eagle
Uprising : 1 Offense, 1 Defense, 1 Tank and 1 Support
Retribution : 3 Offense and 1 Support
This is why Morrison is a leader.
peak escarp
lol
to be fair, Blackwatch is designed for stealth and speed
tanks aren't speedy or stealthy
granite gazelle
Thats true
timid eagle
Didn't they make a joke about that in the recent short story, where Ana was roasting Jack for putting Reinhardt on that stealth mission?
peak escarp
my group tried playing through Retribution with the Uprising heroes
it was actually pretty tough
that set needs to set up in one spot for a while and defend - Retribution had you moving around too much
likewise, Uprising with the Blackwatch team was even harder because they have almost no defensive abilities
timid eagle
Doomfist was a lot of fun in Retribution, along with Sombra.
Sombra hacking the Heavy Units.
Too much fun.
Then again, Doomfist sucks now, so I doubt I'll be using him in that mode at all.
granite gazelle
Loooool
timid eagle
Also, I wonder why you couldn't pin the Heavy Units in Retribution as Reinhardt.
Anywho, back to lore.
I just want to know what Gabe is doing now.
What's his score.
peak escarp
how many ex-Overwatch agents has he taken off the list?
worthy rose
none named, so basically none
limpid agate
We know some were killed
Reaper confirmed that in Masquerade
Just no one we know of
Worst case, Mirembe and/or Kimiko died
peak escarp
nooo
limpid agate
Otherwise, no one named
forest osprey
I don't like that in order for reaper's story to progress he would need to kill the major overwatch members or give up altogether
granite gazelle
Just win - reaper
peak escarp
him fighting the main characters but losing is also a possibility
he's lost to Winston twice already
forest osprey
But isn't that still the same where his story doesn't progress
He becomes like the dr eggman of overwatch or something?
molten pendant
itll prob progress to a cliche "oh he's had a revelation- he will be a good guy now!!!"
I dont trust michael chu to actually make good writing
forest osprey
I like amoral characters
granite gazelle
Micheal chu not writing anything good
molten pendant
whys what
granite gazelle
Oof didnt mean to edit
forest osprey
Because I perceive the world to have no inherent morality often
peak escarp
his writing has been good so far
molten pendant
because after that recent short story that he thought was good enough to put his name on
it brought literally nothing interesting overall
also the fact that after every comic release he takes to twitter and just says the stupidest shit
peak escarp
it brought characterization to two characters who hadn't been seen in the lore recently, told us about past Overwatch missions that could be potential Archives missions
forest osprey
I'd like the fact that this individualistic revenge story can actually gain closure through amoral acts
peak escarp
it gave a conclusion to the Hakim plotline
molten pendant
"past overwatch missions" that was literally just uprising that was discussed
peak escarp
they also mentioned a mission during the crisis in Rio
peak escarp
Retribution was a one-sentence mention in Moira's bio
molten pendant
his writing was plain as well
blizz set a high standard with SC and WoW lore and OW doesnt live up to them whatsoever
forest osprey
Good guys are the default plot cliche writers use?
Why isn't overwatch darker
When it's about wars and conflict
And political upheaval and things like that
forest osprey
Instead it's sort of like some superhero story
peak escarp
the story is about heroes
peak escarp
if you want dark edginess go play something else
granite gazelle
Lol
forest osprey
Don't brush off realistic writing as the idiotic attempt of writers to achieve an affect of that
peak escarp
they have established the style of Overwatch to be optimistic and heroic
forest osprey
There should be a reverse word for edginess you know
peak escarp
to suddenly change and write everything as gritty realism would be jarring
forest osprey
As the unnecessary need to idealise everything in order to appeal to some mass audience
Like roundedness though that's just some ironic name
People have oversimplifications for pain or suffering but no one has it for optimistic viewpoints
peak escarp
everyone liked Reflections and Uprising and Old Soldiers
why do people suddenly hate this story?
forest osprey
I haven't played those actually so I wouldn't know, it's just how people seem to use the word edgy in some sort of tactless way
peak escarp
those are some of the comics Chu wrote
he wrote most of the ones that people like
but now they're flip-flopping and saying he's a bad writer all because they don't like one scene in a 16-page short story
he wrote Old Soldiers, Junkenstein, Reflections, Uprising and Masquerade
forest osprey
I was just saying that people use the word edgy like it's spoken by some person of boundless worldly wisdom in order to generalise all non optimistic philosophies
I don't know about the story beyond that I wanted it to be darker in connection to the consequences of Reaper's motivation
Yes overwatch is written as a more optimistic story and I see that but it just seems like a missed opportunity
And if people dismiss this missed opportunity because of some nonsensical revulsion to the nebulous idea of edginess then they are doing it in a mindless way
For all media
worthy rose
It's not really that they have no idea how things would work realistically, they just don't want to kill off a ton of characters GoT-style for both lore and gameplay reasons.
forest osprey
Yes which is why Reaper's motivation seems like a missed opportunity that can't really be progressed in any way
In that sense why is Reaper in the story in the first place
peak escarp
we don't know what Reaper's motivation is
we just know he's eliminating ex-Overwatch members
worthy rose
We can have a revelation about why Reaper joined Talon
worthy rose
We can have new Overwatch go to save some nameless ex-Overwatch agent
peak escarp
we know what he's doing, we don't know why he's doing it
he used to be a leader of Overwatch
worthy rose
Reaper doesn't have to spend all his time killing ex-Overwatch either.
forest osprey
Talon is antagonistic to overwatch isn't it
worthy rose
They're as close to a "big bad" as exists in lore
forest osprey
So supposedly Reaper's motivations would be antagonistic to Overwatch
peak escarp
his good friend was killed by Talon by his own wife who was programmed into a sleeper agent
worthy rose
Probably some world domination scheme too
forest osprey
And he's not joking around because he does kill some ex overwatch members
worthy rose
But we need to know why Reaper is working with Talon when he spent years fighting them.
molten pendant
reyes was part of talon at that pointt lol
worthy rose
You sure?
forest osprey
Why does he want to destroy Overwatch when it's already broken up?
molten pendant
yeah because moira was fuckin with him at that point
worthy rose
Then why were there so many thugs guarding businessguy's place?
peak escarp
just because Moira was working on him doesn't make him part of Talon
molten pendant
moira was talon, he wasnt
worthy rose
They could have easily not brought in the expensive heavy troopers
molten pendant
idk it depends on when retribution and the ana comic happened in regards to eachother
worthy rose
or simply flooded the place right after they went in, too many for the team to kill
forest osprey
The way this is going it doesn't seem like it's very thought out with regards to the story
molten pendant
its not a real blizzard game until someone dies
worthy rose
I have faith in their ability to make all this make sense
molten pendant
somes gonna have to die
peak escarp
we don't have the full picture yet
forest osprey
Having a lack of character motivation isn't an excuse for good writing
molten pendant
one of the heroes* will have to die
molten pendant
no, theyll keep them
forest osprey
It might mean that you don't know what the hell you want to do with your character and want as much retcon space as you want
worthy rose
Massive waste of work, and there would be a lot of protesting from the community
peak escarp
or it means they know exactly what his motivation is but they're saving it for a major lore event
worthy rose
Leaving them in is also a no-go
forest osprey
And that means no character development either because we don't know how the characters change based on their motivation
peak escarp
Jeff said that if a hero died in the lore they would remain playable
worthy rose
They can't be in any events, skins will have to be random and not lore-based
molten pendant
the game is separate from lore
worthy rose
It would be very difficult to kill a hero
worthy rose
Actually, not really half
forest osprey
Why write story bits when there's no character motivation?
peak escarp
I'm saying there is motivation, we just don't know what it is yet
forest osprey
Well that means not just Reaper but every other character has the same problem
worthy rose
I'd say most of them
The ones we don't know are DF, Hammond, Reaper, maybe Sombra, Moira, and possibly Zenyatta.
forest osprey
Faith in what Blizzard can do is no excuse for evaluating the story that they've developed
worthy rose
Sorta Bastion, but that's kinda shaky
forest osprey
If they have motivations later it's still a poor story now
worthy rose
It's mostly just Talon
peak escarp
Doomfist's motivation is to improve humanity through conflict
worthy rose
Possibly.
peak escarp
Moira's motivation is to advance science at any cost
what do you mean possibly? he says it himself
worthy rose
Or whatever mysterious goals Talon has.
forest osprey
If you watch an anime and the main character has no motivation then what are you watching for
peak escarp
"Only through conflict do we evolve."
forest osprey
Fma has motivation right from the start
I wasn't arguing that Reaper was a main character
worthy rose
Then why bring it up?
forest osprey
Only that motivation makes a story bit important and makes a story coherent
worthy rose
We have a mysterious evil group, which makes new bits on them all the more interesting.
forest osprey
Makes it good like in FMA
worthy rose
We can discover why they're doing what the are through what's happening in the lore.
forest osprey
I would argue mysteriousness actually detracts from the sort of deep moral and character conflict that is made possible through definition
peak escarp
it's easy to say FMA was a good story
it's a complete story
Overwatch's story is still being told
worthy rose
Meanwhile, there are a bunch of secondary characters, each with their own subplots, that may or may not intersect with the main one.
This is half a mystery story.
forest osprey
Fma was good because in the beginning of the story the main characters have a motivation to resurrect their mother through alchemy
worthy rose
IF you know who the killer was at the beginning, a good detective movie becomes pointless.
peak escarp
but that motivation was entirely pointless to the overall plot of the story
and they never achieve that goal
forest osprey
That wasn't complete at the point of those early episodes
Yes because motivations are made in order to define who a character is and what their values are then when those characters don't finish their motivations the character has undergone development and realizes the more important values
Father wants the philosophers stone and Edward doesn't because one wants to sacrifice human souls and the other one doesn't
So they represent alternate sorts of outcomes from different values
Now you can understand the story as being about this or that
Which gives the story an underlying theme you can expect rather than having a need to be pumped by an unlimited number of quantity over quality episodes
Being led by only a promise that everything will make sense
peak escarp
what does any of this have to do with Overwatch?
forest osprey
It has to do with character motivations in the beginning of a story to predict the quality of a story in the future
peak escarp
you're comparing an anime/manga to the supporting lore for a shooter game
it's apples and pears
forest osprey
Or to explain the necessity of having character motivations than some blissful mystery that gives an llusion of possible complexity
Well we were comparing stories
Or did you already have the expectation that Overwatch's story was to be inferior than more story focused stuff
If so what were you comparing the quality of Overwatch's story to then
Lore of what game
forest osprey
But you have no standard to compare it to?
peak escarp
I don't need to know everyone's motivations to think it's good
I don't need to compare it to anything
forest osprey
If you say something is good then you know what's bad and what's not right
peak escarp
I have an opinion on what I like
limpid agate
If something is good, that means it was enjoyed
peak escarp
and I like the Overwatch lore
forest osprey
So there is no objective standard to evaluate any stories?
forest osprey
Despite there being a science of writing?
forest osprey
By science I meant a generally accepted theory on how to write stories like establishing motivation
worthy rose
dude
forest osprey
Which every critic tends to mention when evaluating stories
worthy rose
science != generally accepted theory
limpid agate
So what qualifies as an objectively good book?
peak escarp
that sounds very pretentious
limpid agate
Wuthering Heists? Catcher in the Rye? Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
worthy rose
So basically you want every story to lay out ever character and entity's motivations at the beginning?
limpid agate
Is Shakespeare Objectively good? All his plays or just some? What about Arthur Miller? What about Wagner?
limpid agate
That depends
peak escarp
if people like the stories, then yes
limpid agate
Did you answer any of my questions?
forest osprey
Or is everyone equally qualified to write stories?
limpid agate
You cant keep asking rhetorical questions if you're going to ignore mine
worthy rose
Depends on how much people like them
forest osprey
I am answering your questions just not in the narrow yes or no that you want it to be
limpid agate
You're dodging the question
worthy rose
You can have a ton of experience writing mysteries where the reader knows everything at the start
forest osprey
There is a certain ambiguity to every work
worthy rose
That doesn't make you a remotely good writer
limpid agate
There is also a certain ambiguity to your answer
That is not an asnwer
Is Wuthering Heists an objectively good book? Catcher in the Rye? Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
worthy rose
If it isn't a yes or no, detail how.
limpid agate
Is a low skilled writer going to write good stories? Is not an answer
worthy rose
It's that simple.
forest osprey
But there are still good and bad works and when people refer to good writers they tend to refer to experience writing or some sort of education
limpid agate
That is not an answer
limpid agate
If you are not going to answer the question you will be asked to drop it
worthy rose
it's subjective
limpid agate
This is a discussion
You cant have discussion if you ignore the other side of the discussion
forest osprey
What's your standard of defining what an answer is and what's not an answer?
limpid agate
Relevance, for starters
worthy rose
^wish I had this in reddit arguments
limpid agate
How is your answer relevant.
forest osprey
What's relevant and what's not?
limpid agate
I ask about 3 specific books. You respond about a vague answer about authors and their experience or education
forest osprey
They're classics I think
limpid agate
Are you suggesting that only good books come from good authors, or only educated/experienced authors write good books?
forest osprey
Most classics are regarded as good
forest osprey
A book is a classic because people say it's good across time and is relevant to life
worthy rose
There isn't any universal flowchart through which you could classify a book as good or bad and have everyone agree.
Therefore, it's subjective.
forest osprey
That's what a classic would be I believe
worthy rose
It changes over time, too.
I tried to read Lord of the Rings when I was six
It ended... poorly.
I read it later, and I found that I liked it more.
There is no objective good or bad in writing.
forest osprey
If a character you liked suddenly changed their personality with no explanation would you consider it a good story
peak escarp
if the story isn't over yet, I would have faith in the writer to give an explanation eventually
limpid agate
You would.
forest osprey
Like how Patrick seemed to be more abrasive as spongebob went on
limpid agate
That happened in classic literature
peak escarp
if they didn't give one before the story ended, I'd be disappointed
worthy rose
The responses are already not unanimous.
So which one of us is right?
And which simply can't tell the difference between good and bad?
forest osprey
So can't we say that people don't like it when characters suddenly change personality for no reason
limpid agate
It happened to Sancho in Don Quixote if you want an example. Don Quixote is widely regarded as a classic, which you defined as objectively good.
So if you say that does happen
It is not a strike for a bad story
forest osprey
A classic is good because people have liked it across time
worthy rose
Sure, you can find some commonality between good books
like proper use of grammar and punctuation.
forest osprey
It didn't happen to Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment or Stepan Trofimovich in Demons
limpid agate
Correct.
It doesnt happen in every book you consider classic
But it does happen to characters in books that are classic
worthy rose
Whatever you try to assert about a good book, there is a counterexample.
limpid agate
There is no such thing as objectively good.
forest osprey
In what?
limpid agate
Hard Science is not quantifiable by enjoyment.
And even then
How is science objectively good
worthy rose
Good as in accuracy and reliability is quantifiable.
limpid agate
You are changing the definition of good
worthy rose
95% confidence interval, usually.
forest osprey
Something is good when it achieves a standard
forest osprey
That standard is defined and other people follow it
limpid agate
It was also defined that the Earth was the center of the universe
forest osprey
Usually the experts of the field
limpid agate
Science is also not objectively correct
worthy rose
Again, you?
forest osprey
Right because there is a process of finding out the truth more and more
white cobalt
the heck is happening here
limpid agate
Therefore, its not objectively good
white cobalt
and isnt lore?
limpid agate
@white cobalt Someone said that the Overwatch lore was good
worthy rose
Then someone said that it was objectively bad
forest osprey
The earth being the center of the universe is still a progression from humans being the center of the universe or that the universe was a dome of water around the earth
white cobalt
that's...objectively subjective
worthy rose
Getting sidetracked, answer the question.
forest osprey
Now we have a truer theory of the sun being the center of the galaxy
limpid agate
So would you say, today
That the earth being the center of the universe
Is an objectively good theory
forest osprey
It's good because it follows the standards of accuracy to reality that science has set
limpid agate
So objectively good science doesnt need to be true
forest osprey
The earth being the center of the universe is not the scientific standard it is an attempt to follow that standard
white cobalt
Jewvia, better end this, is like running in circles...
worthy rose
Again, getting sidetracked
forest osprey
Whether it fails is not proof that objectivity does not exist
limpid agate
Yeah. Objectively good science doesnt need to be true. Objectively good books don't need to have consistent characterization.
So
worthy rose
Can we just go back to the original question and get a yes or no answer?
limpid agate
Overwatch must have an objectively good lore.
forest osprey
When did I say that objective science does not need to be true?
limpid agate
Its also been enjoyed by people over the years
It's good because it follows the standards of accuracy to reality that science has set
forest osprey
Science is the attempt to follow a standard and theories are to be evaluated based on how much it meets that standard
worthy rose
no
limpid agate
However, that theory that you said was objectively good, is also objectively false.
forest osprey
That standard is accuracy and reliability
worthy rose
Science is the application of the scientific method to get definitive results about the state and rules of the universe.
limpid agate
Overwatch is objectively good
forest osprey
When science replaces an earth centric theory with a sun centric one it follows this standard better therefore it's more 'good'
worthy rose
more good?
forest osprey
Better
worthy rose
So there's a scale?
limpid agate
How can something be more good if it is objectively good
forest osprey
Yes accuracy is what science is evaluated by
worthy rose
this talk is objectively dumb. Just a minor comment from me, please continue about your day
What, things can be good and more good?
limpid agate
At what point in the goodness scale does something become objectively good
At what point is it not objectively good but still good
worthy rose
but obviously false theories aren't bad?
forest osprey
Things become better as they more correctly approach a standard
worthy rose
Then where do you define bad?
limpid agate
What standard does Shakespeare approach?
worthy rose
and who defines the standard?
forest osprey
False theories contain a portion of truth which might be incorporated to the next theory
Slowly you approximate a result that most closely follows the standard
worthy rose
In science, reality defines the standard.
limpid agate
If youre gonna keep defending the earth being the center of the universe as a good theory and ignore everyone else Im ending this
worthy rose
But who defines the standard in writing?
limpid agate
Ive tried bringing it back to Overwatch multiple times now
forest osprey
Since there is an objective world people define their standards and evolve it to be most in line with the world
I wasn't defending the earth being in the center of the universe
limpid agate
Thats not what I said
If youre gonna keep defending the earth being the center of the universe as a good theory
worthy rose
But that implies that you know where that standard is.
forest osprey
I was defending the fact that there is a progression towards the good through multiple theories
forest osprey
The sun being in the center of the galaxy if it turns out to be true
limpid agate
That if is uncertainty
worthy rose
First, that's wrong.