he most have some weird genes to have gray hair
#lore-discussion
dawn knot
or maybe i just don't have a proper grasp on when hair turns gray in people
in fact if the wiki is anything to follow, it really isn't confirmed that roadhog is the way he is because of "radiation"
which i expected
perhaps fans just assumed that but i know blizzard has
bigger plans
reef thicket
and somehow hes the most overttuned tank in the game
when he has nothing but a shitty scrap gun and 0 armour
k
opaque stratus
@dawn knot I assumed his hair has been bleached by constant sun exposure
Living in the outback would do that
Especially since I don't exactly see Roadhog splashing out for hair care stuff to undo it
dawn knot
ah that makes sense
but then again you'd think his "healing liquid" would regenerate it to an extent
or perhaps i'm misinterpreting what exactly it truly is capable of
that or he's got a lower quality batch (which is pretty highly likely)
perhaps a combination of both
yeah ngl on second thought i'm certain that healing stuff isn't anti aging since they've talked about mercy being her age and looking younger before, how her in game look is just not the most accurate
opaque stratus
It might also just repair the essentials
dawn knot
and i'm assuming it's the same technology to an extent
since all the healing in that game is just "yellow liquid" in some form or another
nearly all of it at least
opaque stratus
Though personally I always assumed that in-universe it isn't literally healing him
More it's getting him high on painkillers
So he doesn't suddenly not have the injuries he can just ignore them
dawn knot
and that would make a lot of sense
if not for the actual tank of yellow fluid in
either his barn or the second stretch of junker town i've forgotten slightly
but i'm sure it exists
which then has his little containers next to it
opaque stratus
The way I've assumed, and this could easily be wrong, is it's the same element that fuels Mercy or Zenyatta's healing
But you're SUPPOSED to use it to fuel a sophisticated machine
dawn knot
and i'd be surprised if that attention to detail, making it yellow, is arbitrary
opaque stratus
Not just huff it
So the way Roadhog's doing it might work but probably has drawbacks
Given the state of everyone in Junkertown mental degradation might be one of those drawbacks
dawn knot
not to go too off topic, but there are voice lines actually establishing that zenyatta and mercy's healing are not the same
along with lucio being a healer with "sound"
i'm realizing that perhaps not all yellow
is truly the same thing
but the fact that it's fluid makes me think it's a thrown away stash of perhaps defunct nanotechnology
dawn knot
lol nice
opaque stratus
Sonic Booped a 76 and Roadhog to their deaths at the same time
And yes I insist on calling that ability the Sonic Boop
dawn knot
makes sense though
also i believe that some characters are "more canonical" than others
like how widowmaker literally is one to one with what she can actually do, whilst torbjorn has the ability to spawn turrets and throw/shoot lava
reef thicket
i got a question
isnt moira technically like
immortal?
isnt her healing regenerating cells
and isnt cells the thing that makes us all slowly die
dawn knot
yes, and i believe she is to an extent
reef thicket
idk it just seems to be if anyone in the ow would be immortal it would be moira
dawn knot
but reaper is the more likely candidate for immortality
as moira was the first test subject
she tested her technology on herself
then reaper was the next stage, maybe even the final one
though perhaps not as there are some visible kinks
and spoken ones too, where reaper calls his condition a "curse"
opaque stratus
I believe Moira has what you'd call biological immortality
dawn knot
even though all voice lines are established to be 'not canonical' i consider them somewhat reflective of the actual character at times
opaque stratus
Like her body will continue to function forever without outside interference
But obviously, outside interference can come in all forms
I think Reaper's condition keeps him alive for now but is slowly killing him, if that makes sense
A friend actually has the really depressing theory that the final straw to make Reaper snap was when he tried to end it all and his condition wouldn't let him die
dawn knot
i wonder too how moira consumes. we know that reaper eats by kinda absorbing dead people and turning them into husks; perhaps his cells merge with that of the dead "host" and absorb what nutrients are necessary out of the blood and organs, and we can assume moira can do this too somewhat, but she does have an otherwise "normal" body at first glance
so i wonder if she can eat normally too
also ngl that reaper theory makes sense
opaque stratus
I think Moira can but doesn't need to eat
opaque stratus
Here's a weird one
Assuming some characters got more involved in the Talon vs Overwatch war building, what sides would they take?
reef thicket
also wasnt
opaque stratus
Some are easier
valid shell
False.
opaque stratus
What we see now as Reaper is the result
valid shell
Stop spreading misinformation.
dawn knot
we don't know that for sure yeah
opaque stratus
Or at least that was how it started, forget if Moira touched up on him too after
dawn knot
the lab thing exploding we don't know
valid shell
Moira's confirmed test subjects: A rabbit, herself, and Gabriel Reyes.
opaque stratus
Inb4 that rabbit becomes playable
dawn knot
perhaps just not fully cognisant of the endgame effects
reef thicket
moira's condition seems alot more clean and well done than reapers imo
like her wraith form is quick and fast
valid shell
Look at her hand.
reef thicket
while reapers is slow and clunky
valid shell
It's all jacked up.
valid shell
Also, in-game abilities =/= canonical examples.
dawn knot
we see in the shorts, reaper is just as fast
reef thicket
so in canon is moira able to do everything reaper is able to do
opaque stratus
At least from dialogue and such Reaper's condition at least seems a lot less stable
valid shell
No.
reef thicket
or is it different since they were both different experiments
valid shell
Yes.
opaque stratus
Whether that's because he was an early example or just his body didn't take to the procedure as well
dawn knot
i'm pretty sure moira cannot teleport long distances, or at least that's my theory
where as reaper can seemingly go wherever he wants
valid shell
I wouldn't be surprised if Reaper's entire body now looks like Moira's right arm, post-Swiss HQ explosion.
dawn knot
fading away after ana takes off his mask
to probably some talon base
i think moira's arm looks that way because it was still a "prototype" experiment
opaque stratus
Seriously though I have to wonder what side some of the characters would end up on
dawn knot
we actually see some of reaper's skin on his arms
opaque stratus
If they came into the Talon vs Overwatch conflict more directly
dawn knot
as he does not have long sleeves, but his gauntlets cover most of his forearm
it's pale, and i imagine the rest of his body is like that
where his blood is just kind of that black dust
anyways yeah i'd imagine
opaque stratus
I think the fact they're bothering to hide it kind of says for us it isn't a pretty sight
Whatever's under there
opaque stratus
I was more thinking people like say Ashe, Junkrat, evil characters who aren't necessarily muhahaha masterminds
valid shell
Moira's rabbit probably ate it, and Moira got a (painfully) fucked-up arm, and Reyes was completely stable and successful, until the Swiss HQ.
dawn knot
i mean i doubt it's anything really bad, considering he already had the full range of abilities in that one event i forget
retribution i think?
and he looked fairly normal
dawn knot
yeah pain
valid shell
And Reyes hard confirms that there's no ill effects in Retribution.
dawn knot
i honestly think he just wears all that so no one knows who he is
opaque stratus
Makes me wonder what order it is with Moira; does she have to drain/feed to keep those effects away? Or does using that power cause that pain
dawn knot
we also have to remember that
perhaps these people dress this way because it "looks cool"
we already have a pretty prevalent nerd culture today
opaque stratus
Someone needs to tell Reaper his outfit is about as subtle as a trainwreck on a boat then 😛
dawn knot
and all this is way in the future
well it is black still
it may also be for the fear factor
which is a very real thing used in military tactics
albeit pretty much entirely back in the day
opaque stratus
More terrorism tactics but then Talon ARE terrorists
dawn knot
yep
also a lot of people complain about how WM's outfit is like
unrealistic and all that
how it makes no practical sense
or not that just that
it's
kind of over the top
and i wholeheartedly agree
i think that the talon higher ups
obviously being
bad people
just kinda wanna see this like obviously fit young woman
in this revealing stuff
like that's my theory anyways like
kind of a power move if that makes any sense
opaque stratus
Or even if they don't care it rubs salt in the wound for the members of Overwatch who know who she is
And/or knew her directly
opaque stratus
Though on a practical level her condition makes her functionally immune to the elements
Practicality probably just becomes an afterthought when clothes don't actually need to keep your warm
dawn knot
i suppose but
she does wear a coat in the winter comic
but if you look closer she's also wearing her
visor
and "work shoes"
so either she's fresh from a mission
has to wear that all the time
opaque stratus
Personal headcanon; the coat was her husband's and it's a bit of Amelie pushing through
dawn knot
or she chose to be like that
well the coat has pink edges on it
if i remember correctly
opaque stratus
You sayin a manly man can't wear pink son 😛
dawn knot
also that's kinda strange to think about, if she was fresh from a mission, talon operatives must be with her
reef thicket
hammond is talon
dawn knot
which makes the whole situation more odd
opaque stratus
Depends where you are I suppose but french fashion includes a lot of pink
reef thicket
evil hamster
opaque stratus
For men and women
reef thicket
i still dont get why reyes joined talon when he hated them because they tried assasinating gared
and
ended up getting his wife to kill him
opaque stratus
Well again going back to my friend's "Reaper tried to end it all" theory
She thinks he knows Talon is going to lose
dawn knot
i personally think it was some sort of miscommunication, or stylization. since it was just a comic, and in the same strip mcree and sombra are in the same bar
like
opaque stratus
And is basically comitting suicide by cop
dawn knot
fat chance
opaque stratus
Or trying to
dawn knot
i feel like reyes joined talon for separate reasons ngl
like that was just an "oh yeah they did that i guess"
opaque stratus
Also tbh I can see McCree and Sombra hanging together
For one thing does McCree even know she's part of Talon?
Even if he does I could see him being drunk enough to forget that
Considering he's passed out drunk in the panel
dawn knot
no but it's kinda strange to see two main characters in a bar together by random chance
i honestly think that whole page is just semi-canonical
opaque stratus
Might not have been random chance
One function I think it's only sensible to assume Sombra has
KEeping tabs on a lot of characters
Either as potential recruits or potential dangers
dawn knot
but she doesn't at all seem interested in mcree, more so in whatever's in her shot
like they just happened to be there and she's minding her own deals
timid eagle
A fat man, an explosives expert, a gunslinger, and a hacker all walked into a bar.
opaque stratus
Honestly it would be an interesting dynamic
If Sombra and McCree were somewhat friedly "off the clock"
dawn knot
i doubt there's ever a break for people like that
opaque stratus
Eh you find your breaks where you can get em
timid eagle
Isn’t McCree a wanted outlaw?
dawn knot
yeah most likely why he was in mexico
opaque stratus
@timid eagle I mean dive bars aren't exactly known to be the most law abiding places
dawn knot
when the traffic would be high in the seasons
timid eagle
True.
opaque stratus
In fact the bar they're in looks like the stereotypical place you'd go to get a hired gun
dawn knot
also it's the same bar on the map that has her hideout nearby, so i really honestly think it's just panels showing characters in somewhat representative of what they truly are/would be doing situations
opaque stratus
Am I alone in liking to think there's potentially some good in Junkrat?
dawn knot
if that makes any sense
opaque stratus
His whole attitude and demeanour makes me think more an overactive kid who was never taught right and wrong
opaque stratus
Than a dangerous terrorist
dawn knot
well we can only really consider the shorts and straight canon
reef thicket
she doesnt take anything seriously
dawn knot
and in all she's been in, she's been a majour threat
reef thicket
"BOOP"
opaque stratus
I mean we have people in the real world who hack government servers for kicks
She seems to fit right into that
dawn knot
she noticed the picture of her doing the same thing to her daughter
reef thicket
threat to her kid?
dawn knot
and did it to her as if to say, "i know"
dawn knot
yeah
dawn knot
a lot of people think she just did that because she was being weird or something
dawn knot
but yeah i think sombra feels she's always in control, which gives room for a more aloof nature
just like when she toyed with reaper in the same short
she's smug
it's on the desk, it should appear somewhere
reef thicket
oh
i se
i thought it was the one she picked up
now i see the boop one
xd
yeah she looks over at it
dawn knot
mhm
it turns what seems to be a silly moment into a very calculated threat to a child
which is kind of hilarious ngl
dawn knot
i feel like she's do something
reef thicket
her main threat was just
dawn knot
but either way katya doesn't know what this random terrorist is capable of
reef thicket
blasting that shes working with the omnics all over russia
dawn knot
so it may just be a harsh bluff
reef thicket
idk if doing something to her child would be needed
reef thicket
what does sombra actually get from katya anyways
like i havent seen her gain anything from her
unless im just not looking hard enough
dawn knot
she may just be gaining more power for power's sake
or she may have an underlying plan that we're unaware of
that maybe just we're unaware of, idk if there actually is media explaining why she wanted to "make a friend"
there very well may be
rose escarp
dawn knot
of course
reef thicket
another question
xd
why do sombra doom and widow have "Talon" skins
arent they always talon
shouldnt those be their normal skins then?
idk it doesnt make sense to me
like sombras outfit where she looks alot more proffessional but her normaly lore skin is her purple clothed skin
normal*
or doom with his red warpaint
peak escarp
those skins represent when they were still grunts
and it's unknown if Sombra's Talon skin is even canon
reef thicket
would make sense
peak escarp
I suppose once you're important enough you get to pick your own outfit
dawn knot
i feel like they wear the current outfits for varying reasons, but the grunt thing i agree with
peak escarp
everyone thinks Widowmaker wouldn't have had any agency in choosing her outfit
but have you seen what ballerinas wear?
she's probably comfortable in skin-tight suits
dawn knot
of course and perhaps she did choose it from a design standpoint
but i do think it was a near completely influenced choice
considering her situation
i think they suppressed her good characteristics, and brought out her bad ones somewhat as part of the whole transformation process.
her show-off attitude combined with her aptitude towards looking best
obviously something perhaps someone would have a little of
peak escarp
I hope some day we get a glimpse of her personality before she became Widowmaker
dawn knot
i mean of course we will
but i wonder what we'll see?
i do think very much that the character we see as "widowmaker" is just an extremely warped version of her former self
not a total reset and then an implanted totally new personality
so perhaps yes she chose the outfit to some extent, but only because she had this strange sense of herself in the first place
peak escarp
so she was probably a perfectionist or highly competitive as a ballerina
peak escarp
people in the spotlight often are
dawn knot
but at the same time i don't think this dominated her personality
many other features most likely played parts as they do in normal human beings
peak escarp
yeah
dawn knot
that were then obviously taken away
i feel like some of the subliminal used were somewhat like "it's just a show" "it's all an act" "you're seen as beautiful when you do this"
and therefore the attitude is such
and when the things are ruined
anger arises because it's as if the opposing force messed up a performance
these of course are just my farfetched theories
peak escarp
she did seem pretty irritated when Sombra messed up her chance to assassinate Volskaya
dawn knot
mhm, and when tracer did her thing
but it all seems very genuine
you see an almost plain child-like face looking for the gantlet in recall
perhaps this is just a quirk of the early animation style back then
and tbh i really do think it's that
dawn knot
but it may just show that she really does believe it's all for some "greater good" told to her by higher up or
more aptly put forced on her
yeah but still i get this weird feeling like
everyone else is fully there
but she's not
like mentally at least
and while that makes sense
it still strikes me as interesting
peak escarp
to me see seems a bit frustrated by her lack of positive emotions
she visits her husband's grave, she moves into her family's home and puts up her wedding picture
she surrounds herself with things that should provoke emotional responses . . . but nothing happens
dawn knot
i also really do feel that she was totally convinced that she had to commit murder that first time and that it was all for again, "some greater good" this is why she keeps pictures, and visits graves, because nobody at all, no matter how much torture, would be fully convinced to do something like that unless they were first convinced that it was good in some fashion
peak escarp
and the tone of her interaction with Moira is very sharp
Moira: How are you feeling, Lacroix?
Widowmaker: I don't feel. That's the point, isn't it?
dawn knot
yeah but i still feel like this is an act
peak escarp
that reads as frustration/anger to me
dawn knot
like moira walks away from that thinking, "i've got her right where i want her"
in that
she's
i'm just not quite sure how to explain it
dawn knot
like ok think about this, i'm going to use captian underpants as an example because it's the best i could think of,
peak escarp
because she knows she isn't supposed to feel
dawn knot
when captain underpants is asked how he's feeling it's always like
"oh i'm just great haa" and then some other silly shenanigans
because that's part of the character he was brainwashed into being
this I think is the same thing applied with widowmaker
she's this "character" that acts out things but is still somewhat absent because obviously that isn't her
and she's all
"i dont even feel the cold"
and doing smug comments after killing and
snapping back at moira
like a child being condescending to an adult it's like
"yeah mhm of course you got me"
widowmaker is exactly how moira wants her to be
and that dialogue interaction is just proof of that
she's fully integrated into her role
and is playing it out flawlessly
peak escarp
yeah
dawn knot
hopefully this makes sense
peak escarp
yeah I kinda get it
she's playing along because she has to and she doesn't know any other way to act
dawn knot
it's like an edgy teenager acting like their tough and doing one liners and all that
;like an act
peak escarp
but I still think that on her own time, she's (maybe secretly) trying to get herself back
dawn knot
but widowmaker actually believes because she was forced to, in the act
i doubt it
if she had any semblance of her old memories
which i think are not lost, just warped too, mind you
she'd kill herself
peak escarp
why would she visit Gerard's grave then?
dawn knot
it'd be easy
limpid agate
Her mind was not erased
dawn knot
and it's make sense
limpid agate
Amelie is still Amelie
peak escarp
why move into her family's manor?
dawn knot
because it's part of the act
limpid agate
She was just conditioned to feel no emotion, and enjoy killing
dawn knot
it's like "oh i did this because i had to, how sad"
peak escarp
she must remember these things are part of her life
dawn knot
she's not thinking "wow i'm brainwashed and had to do this"
dawn knot
how do you know this?
limpid agate
She still shows respect for Gerard in her voicelines
Not regret or remorse
But respect for who he was
dawn knot
which lines
peak escarp
she clearly still loves (or knows that she's supposed to love) the memory of her husband
dawn knot
again, how do you know this for sure
peak escarp
she just doesn't experience the emotional side of it
limpid agate
Ana: Gérard was a fool to love someone like you.
Widowmaker: You don't know anything about him.
i do feel for certain this was a trained reaction
also
all voicelines are not canonical anyways
limpid agate
You misunderstand what that means
peak escarp
the dialogue isn't canon (those heroes never said those exact words), but the content of the dialogue is canon
the sentiments and the information are canon
limpid agate
Voicelines represent what someone would say in a given situation, and show off their personality, their history, or their disposition towards other heroes
dawn knot
so if they were to have some sort of interaction like that
peak escarp
yes
dawn knot
it would be similar
peak escarp
it's hypothetical conversations
dawn knot
ok makes sense, so explain to me what exactly this means then
because i still think that she's absent, fully this other character based on her old disposition slightly, but yet one who has a warped sense of reality
just like someone on psychedelics kills someone because they think their the devil
peak escarp
for example: Mercy and Lucio talk about Lucio's father inventing the sonic technology
limpid agate
It would be helpful if you could supply a proof to support your claims.
dawn knot
she was induced into thinking it was for some greater good, or that she had to
peak escarp
as far as we know, Mercy and Lucio have never met
dawn knot
my proof is just as solid as yours, interpretations of vocal interactions
peak escarp
but that doesn't mean Lucio's father didn't invent the tech
limpid agate
You're not supplying a voice interaction
dawn knot
i'm basing this off of the same one you supplied
and off of other generalizations based on demeanor in shorts etc
limpid agate
But that doesnt make any sense.
dawn knot
how so
if you go back to my captain underpants explanation (sounds silly i know) perhaps it will make a bit more sense
limpid agate
What the fuck
dawn knot
I know
but essentially i'm saying
they are convinced they are some sort of character that acts a certain way
and they in turn
act that way
where she believes she has to do all of this and that she likes it
hopefully this makes sense
regardless these are all just theories anyways, and none are more valid than others
also going back, if you could better explain your reasoning for your theories
that'd be cool
i want to hear what other people have to say
limpid agate
Elaborate on your confusion
dawn knot
are you asking this of me?
i mean how do we know it isn't i that's confused
but you in some respects
not at all attempting to demean of course
fr
i just
i've explained best i can and i want to hear what your reasoning is too
it would also be interesting to hear you take apart my theory
if i am at all confused i certainly would not be able to see it
limpid agate
Your theory is based on what. Widowmaker having a warped sense of reality? As in what.
Your thesis doesn't make sense, and you didn't back it up with any supporting evidence.
You argued my evidence could be used to support it, but failed to explain how.
I cannot deconstruct your theory if I dont understand what you are trying to explain.
dawn knot
ok so my theory isn't based off of "widowmaker having a warped sense of reality" it is that widowmaker has a warped sense of reality
and sorry i failed to fully convey that
i use that voiceline
along with many others in the same vein
where she has quick snap backs
and perhaps comments on how
skilled she is or how wonderful the kill she just got was
or how she "doesn't even feel the cold"
to show that
in my opinion
she's not fully there, but yet acting out a character
I do not merely believe that her sense of remorse was turned low, and her affinity towards committing crime was turned up
because while the former makes sense from a technical standpoint, the latter is strange in that there isn't just some "affinity towards crime" section of the brain
while it's reasonable to assume there is one for empathy
so in it's place i imagine that
using parts of her former personality
perhaps pride, and narcissism from her ballerina days
as doctor six mentioned, people in the spotlight are apt to develope
they crafted a new "character" that also was proud of the fact that they did not feel and felt as if perhaps they had to commit murder on their significant other
thus explaining why she'd show at his grave
not thinking
"oh dear i've really done this haven't I? i was brainwashed into doing this and now i am sad"
but instead thinking
"oh dear what a shame that things had to be this way, oh well"
she displays the same attitude elsewhere too
which all adds up to me believing that she really does play some sort of a character'
by force that is
peak escarp
people don't visit the graves of their murder victims
they visit the graves of their loved ones
dawn knot
of course, but she is not a normal person as i've explained
peak escarp
and that whole spread of the comic was about people spending time with people they love or doing things that make them happy
dawn knot
well
i think that panel in particular was just showing off what exactly the certain characters were doing
not having any uniting theme
as junkrat and roadhog are commiting another crime spree
and mcree and sombra are at a bar
dawn knot
i suppose you could say sombra was doing something she enjoys
but still i think that the theme
if there is one
is a little more vague than that
at least
and of course there is love felt at that grave site
it's just
a strange one
dawn knot
like i explained what i felt was going on in her head
how it was more an "oh shame" rather than an actual mourning
peak escarp
Winston says "the holidays are supposed to be a time for friends and family"
dawn knot
but like i said in the end they're all theories anyways
peak escarp
the spread shows people spending time with friends and family (for those who have them)
dawn knot
yes i agree
also i just realized
is all this "theorizing" considered
Fanfiction
or is it not because we all understand that it's not
limpid agate
No
dawn knot
real
peak escarp
fanfiction isn't based on facts
as long as we can back up our ideas, they're fine for discussion
dawn knot
i mean they can be i suppose
i could say my theory and then say, "and i earnestly believe and push this notion"
in my mind that makes it ff
where you actually totally believe it and push it as reality
i just hope i'm not crossing any lines
as i kinda do believe what i'm saying and i wouldn't be surprised if it turned out right
limpid agate
i use that voiceline
along with many others in the same vein
where she has quick snap backs
and perhaps comments on how
skilled she is or how wonderful the kill she just got was
or how she "doesn't even feel the cold"
to show that
in my opinion
she's not fully there, but yet acting out a character
Widowmaker's back story was that she was conditioned by Talon to not feel or hesitate when it comes to taking the shot, and that killing helps make her feel alive. She is evidently not wholly emotionless, but she is numbed
These lines are not out of character, they are her character.
dawn knot
they are her character that she plays yes
and while the character descriptions are nice
we can't take them as totally representative of each person either
more an exaggeration or understatement
to "show off" the character to newcomers i would think
like how it says "nobody knows reaper's motives"
or how soldier is an "international target"
like sure but not totally
if that makes sense
that and these descriptions never tell the whole story
why they are like that
or if that's all of the things they are
if that too makes any sense
limpid agate
Moira: How are you feeling, Lacroix?
Widowmaker: I don't feel. That's the point, isn't it?
Ah, the site of one of my finest kills. That day, I felt alive.
When I was a girl, I had a fear of spiders. I was told they felt no emotion, that their hearts never beat. But I know the truth. At the moment of the kill, they are never more alive
exactly
limpid agate
The first interaction is a direct discussion about her current condition
Her second line refers to Alive, where she felt alive at the time of the kill.
The third line is from alive, talking about how, like a spider, she feels no emotion until the moment of the kill.
Putting these three together, you can deduce that Widowmaker is numbed emotionally, but feels the breath of life when she ends another's.
You don't need to rely on the bio to say this
Which, yes, are often filled with error
At least for the launch heroes
Ana and onwards seem to be accurate
or how soldier is an "international target"
This one is true though.
He is wanted in both Egypt and America, and is therefor an international target.
He also raised hell in Mexico, which likely raised more bells.
dawn knot
he committed a single crime in mexico (ngl to our knowledge) and it was against a crime organization
regardless that was just a point off the top of my head
sorry it couldn't have been more sound
limpid agate
peak escarp
the bios for the launch heroes were written like 3 years ago
limpid agate
He raided Watchpoint Grand Mesa, a Helix protected facility, and stole old Overwatch equipment
dawn knot
anyways, while everything you say is correct
peak escarp
they need a bit of an update
dawn knot
my theories or on why exactly she acts that way
limpid agate
WHich explicitly states Soldier raided multiple watchpoints
ANd simply stole the Pulse Rifle from Grand Mesa
dawn knot
of course talon tinkered, but i feel like they did a little bit more than numb
which makes it seem like numbing would be just a small thing to do
it isn't
limpid agate
And here he is on a wanted poster in Egypt
dawn knot
i'm just saying talon did a lot
and the turned up with a very well preforming soldier, one of if not the best so
i suppose it "worked out"
limpid agate
They numbed her emotion, enhanced her abilities, and further conditioned her to become loyal.
limpid agate
Doomfist: Watch my back out there, Lacroix.
Widowmaker: Tell me what needs to be done and I will do it.
exactly
limpid agate
You are suggesting that Amelie is consciously creating a persona, are you not?
dawn knot
not consciously no
like an example i used earlier
where perhaps in an rp situation maybe even in everyday activity
a teen may act overly edgy
and say one liners and all that
or how a person in a play may overdo their part
but yet they all they're playing a part
i'd say the closest thing to amelie is a very very serious method actor
if that helps clear things
limpid agate
It still makes no sense.
limpid agate
You are suggesting that Amelie had a change in personality then?
dawn knot
yes, but not fully
i feel like they amped up her narcissism and showmanship and made a whole little warped character out of it
limpid agate
That's character development. Genji also had a change in personality between now and 8 years ago.
dawn knot
well yes but this happened in two weeks, no?
limpid agate
No
dawn knot
two weeks, returned, committed, retrieved
and then further enhancements begun
purple skin etc
there was a trigger, and then a switch in character
limpid agate
Two weeks between Amelie being returned and then killing Gerard.
Not two weeks between
Amelie becoming Widowmaker
limpid agate
It doesnt say how long she was with Talon before she was returned
limpid agate
Two weeks later she killed Gérard in his sleep.
hm
dawn knot
yes she wasn't "triggered" yet
limpid agate
Amelie was normal 8 years ago because Gerard was alive 8 years ago.
The next appearance of a Lacroix chronologically was ~6 years ago, during the events of Legacy.
dawn knot
that we know of
limpid agate
1 moment
dawn knot
(sorry to butt in, continue)
dawn knot
ok yes
limpid agate
Back then, no one knew anything about her
dawn knot
yes
limpid agate
And she was thought to have been dead after Gerard's murder.
It was the next appearance to the viewer, but also her next appearance to Ana and Overwatch as a whole
dawn knot
well to ana
as after this
i believe directly after
she goes into hiding
and does not seem to speak to even her family, let alone overwatch
but even with all of this
my theory in my mind still stands
even the anger shown here further proves it
again, in my mind
part of the "performance ruined" act
though even if this isn't the case, i'm sure i'd still be pretty bummed if someone took away or diminished the means by which i gained satisfaction
peak escarp
she didn't go into hiding, she goes back to Talon
dawn knot
considering she uses her maiden name on her fake passport
wouldn't be surprised if she was the only child, brought up thinking she could do anything
thus becoming a star ballerina
also further enforcing the narcissism portion of her personality(to later be inflated)
and i also wouldn't be surprised
considering her kind of
"gothic theme"
with some of her skins and the look of her house
i mean blizzard is still an entity that wants to make a compelling, and in that way perhaps not fully likely story
i wouldn't be surprised if she was in a bit of a 'batman' situation (parents killed)
maybe pushing her more towards an affinity towards "law enforcement figures" thus gerard?
kinda far reaching with the last one haha
but still
the more i think about things the more it all fits
but i'm always open for criticism so
have at it
oh also doctor six, i meant ana
ana goes into hiding
limpid agate
My criticism is, you are describing her personality, but keep trying to imply it's an act.
When the more likely explanation is
Its her personality.
dawn knot
well i mean it being her personality is just a theory too at this point
limpid agate
Would that also make Reinhardt's uproarous vigor just a theory too?
Or Moira's stoic demeanour?
peak escarp
or Reaper being an edgy traitor
jagged hornet
i dont think its a theory - its just her personality
peak escarp
unless we have proof to the contrary, it's probably safe to say they aren't acting
and those are their genuine personalities
limpid agate
You can say so far if you want, but that's not evidence towards other characters hiding true personalities
dawn knot
it is her personality
but it's hers not by choice
that's the simplest way i can put it
just as you'd call anyone else who's been "brainwashed" or otherwise under some sort of influence
'not themselves'
and obviously i wouldn't say anyone else is acting because
no one else has been brainwashed
also by "acting" i mean of course forced mentally into a role that she now believes she actually is
like hypnotizing someone into believing their a chicken
and they begin to cluck
valid shell
Neat theory, but there's no precedent for it for anyone.
dawn knot
she's acting all "badass" and nonchalant about killing because it's the character she's been given to play
whether by the sick whims of the higher ups in talon
or perhaps it serves a practical use
and yeah i understand that it certainly isn't for everyone
but i like this theory myself
and i wished to post it here
that's all
though at the same time a lot of people seem to misunderstand what exactly my theory is about
so perhaps if i could just
transfer my exact ideas into their minds it would
fit with more people
fr though if people could repeat back to me what they think i'm saying that would be
actually the best way of sorting this out
limpid agate
What we are getting from this is
Her personality is not her real personality
Which doesnt make sense.
Its been 6-8 years since Amelie became Widowmaker.
Most heroes in game aren't the same as they were back then, but went through growth as people.
Like Genji, Reaper, Jack, Mei.
And Widowmaker
Widowmaker's present day personality is just like Genji's present day personality
In the sense that it is a contrast to whatever they may have been like in the past.
Genji's gone through three characters.
Casual Playboy
Vengeful Edgelord
Harmonious Soul
None of them are fake or real personalities
They're all Genji
Much like how past Amelie and present Widowmaker are both just Widowmaker
Conditioned or not, she is still a person, and still grows just like anyone else
She loyal and drives pleasure from assassination, but she still forms thoughts and opinions on her own, and still has her own personality.
She's not brainwashed to become someone she isnt.
She didnt lose who she was, her memory is in tact.
dawn knot
ok see this is where the claims grow shaky, i was going to wait until you were totally finished
but tell me where you've gotten this
limpid agate
I am finished.
dawn knot
ok
limpid agate
Which part
dawn knot
just the last part where you said that
it was just her and that she isn't brainwashed to become someone else
limpid agate
Chateau Guillard and her lines regarding Gerard
Show that her memory is still in tact.
She still harbours emotion, as seen in most of her interactions.
Albeit repressed
dawn knot
ok but that being said, it is all covered in my theory anyways
where of course she has her memories
but she has a warped attitude towards them
maybe i should totally restate exactly what i think is going on
but in the most crystal clear way i can manage
or would that be too much
i'm up for it
limpid agate
Youre not explaining how this is different than Genji.
Or any other hero who had character development
Like
Its just character development, I dont get waht your point is
dawn knot
ok so you're saying that she's like that because of
character development
character development being what a character goes through to change them
correct?
limpid agate
Are you suggesting you would be the same person if all your emotions were numbed and you only felt pleasure from ending someone's life?
limpid agate
You would develop as a person
limpid agate
Theres no need to say you have a "twisted attitude" towards your past because of your newfound condition
dawn knot
ok
Widowmaker is the way she is because of augmentation to her mind that places her in a state where she perpetually believes things are different from what they are.
there's a lot more to it but that's the essential
"thesis"
it's really still way too open to misinterpretation and if i could just be given a few more sentences at least it may clear up some holes
limpid agate
where she perpetually believes things are different from what they are
What the fuck
dawn knot
yeah see this is where explanation is necessary
limpid agate
Also that's literally Don Quixote Reinhardt
dawn knot
yeah somewhat ngl
yeah that's a wonderful example actually
a forced don quixote situation
valid shell
Of course explanation is necessary, but don't just assume things through conjecture until we get one.
dawn knot
of course, and i'm sorry i can be so vague sometimes
peak escarp
there's no evidence that Widowmaker sees things differently than they are
limpid agate
Widowmaker isn't at all like that though.
dawn knot
the thing is this is my theory and we really don't know how she sees things
limpid agate
Genji is the way he is because of augmentation to his mind that places him in a state where he perpetually believes things are different from what they are.
dawn knot
this is false
limpid agate
How is this different
dawn knot
his body was augmented which lead him to, of his own accord, reject it. this then leading to a somewhat resentful nature thus explaining the "edginess"
but i just don'
t get how WM can even be compared
as she was quite literally forced to be something she wasn't
unless it's your theory that her original personality aligns more so with her current one.
but it's my thought that it doesn't really
we don't know though currently
limpid agate
I'm not saying her original personality aligns with her current one. I'm saying she grew as a person to adapt to her newfound condition, much like any other human being, both in and out of the Overwatch universe.
dawn knot
and that's cool
we've just got to acknowledge that that's no less or more of a theory than my idea
because we really don't know what goes on in her head
everything is inference at this point
limpid agate
Your theory makes no sense. I understand what you are trying to say now, but it isnt based on anything other than the brain is involved and Widowmaker seems pretty villainous for someone who was once just a harmless ballerina.
dawn knot
like yeah of course but i'm saying a lot more
those are obvious
and i'm giving a possible explanation for why that is
valid shell
If someone sustains an injury to their frontal lobe and undergoes a dramatic shift in their demeanor, like Phineas Gage, that doesn't mean that Gage is suddenly a different person.
valid shell
Likewise, if someone has a comparable shift in their mental state through some kind of procedure, and not an accident, they're also still Amelie.
dawn knot
but i'm trying to explain something a little different than that
if i could be given time to write out a proper explanation it would be appreciated
but
then again you all have to agree that it's ok
valid shell
Then write your explanation.
Instead
Of typeing
Like this
So
It takes
So long
That people have
An opportunity
To inturrupt
dawn knot
it helps me organize my thoughts somewhat, but seeing it in action here really does give view into how disrupting it actually is
sorry
anyways i'll be writing, thank you for this chance
also just a preface, i'm going to be stating things like "is" or "was" as if they are actually the case. do note that this is just for the sake of simplicity(not having to then add, "but yet that's due to this evidence" and whatnot).
stoic eagle
guys
you're overthinking it
its simple
Talon removed most of Widowmakers good emotions, to make her an assassin.
she's cold and blue, and works for them
peak escarp
her being cold and blue isn't related to her emotions being suppressed
one is genetic manipulation, the other is mental conditioning
limpid agate
Her being cold and blue is because her heart slowed down so she would be physically the best assassin.
Not unlike the soldier enhancement program enhancing Jack Morrison to peak human qualities to be the best soldier.
stoic eagle
Her mission complete, Amélie returned to Talon, and they completed the process of turning her into a living weapon. She was given extensive training in the covert arts, and then her physiology was altered, drastically slowing her heart, which turned her skin cold and blue and numbed her ability to experience human emotion. Amélie was gone.
Yeah
They don't actually control her mind at all times, she's not a puppet
limpid agate
her physiology was altered, drastically slowing her heart, which turned her skin cold and blue and numbed her ability to experience human emotion
This is the opposite of what you said
peak escarp
it's possible the genetic therapy was done by Moira, but that's an assumption based on Moira being the only geneticist we know of who has worked with Talon at that time
limpid agate
You said her emotions were removed => Her body became cold and blue
limpid agate
Your source says her heart was slowed => Her body became cold and blue && Her emotions were numbed
stoic eagle
holy shit i get it
i remembered wrong
i already said ok
are you this fucking "wait can i just say ur WRONG one more time haha"
peak escarp
he was just finishing his statement
stoic eagle
He already told me two times
he's just being petty and stupid
Anyway
She's not mind controlled, just brainwashed
different things
@dawn knot is basing his assumptions on nothing and blizzard doesnt have extra lore they dont share about really old characters
There
thats it
simple
dawn knot
i think you most likely have not caught the entirety of my text blocks
there is a lot
unless you have
in which case idk what you're saying
anyways i'm still writing, sorry
ok its
too big
so i'll cut it up
Hopefully i wrote it out well enough👇
Amelie before becoming widowmaker was a ballerina who most likely was proud of her looks, and had slight narcissistic tendencies because of the attention cultivated from being proficient in such a profession. When captured by talon I believe that they took these tendencies and enhanced them to make a more willing participant. They then by some means changed her perception of reality, just as someone under hypnosis as a chicken starts to cluck, kaw, and overall believe that they are a chicken. I believe they made her wholeheartedly believe that she somehow was doing all of these things a “greater good”. This new “character” would then be trained to intensely enjoy killing to top off the process. Along with the obvious dulling of empathy, these changes would make it so that she was more willing to improve. Of course force
was most likely used in the beginning to first instill these things, and then perhaps a little after, but someone who has had all of these things done then begins to want to train and become literally near perfect at what they do so that they can A. Gain satisfaction and B. Do what is best for the “greater good”(this being talon’s cause). We see this displayed in her want to do what doomfist says in certain voice lines, and that “enemies of talon will be eliminated” in other voicelines. This then shows that she is willing to do what talon wants, but willing only in the sense that a hypnotized person wants to eat seed as a chicken. This also explains all of her boasting comments about cold and kills, she’s been “hypnotized” into being this character. Say in reality you went to a convention and for whatever reason the hypnotist told you, “act as the character ‘Widowmaker’ does”, you would then begin to adopt an overly serious demeanor and be a bit show-offy and prissy. Of course these things coming possibly from ameli’s actual original personality, but yet warped when shining through in widowmaker’s. This “pseudo-personality” shows too when she visits gerards grave, and sometimes in comments after kills. Where there is almost a “what a shame” attitude. Of course this is conveyed in a smug way where she knows satisfaction was gained upon the kill, and it was for her perceived “greater good”. To end, just as Don Quixote thought beating on windmills made him a hero, perhaps widowmaker had been suggested forcefully into believing that committing murder made her one
anyways i'll possibly be going to sleep soon so
do @ me with any further responses and rebuttals, because i may not be able to respond myself if this all gets shoved up by morning
peak escarp
I don't think Talon believes in doing things for "the greater good"
and we don't know what she's thinking when she stands at Gerard's grave
dawn knot
of course not, but to have her preforming smoothly it's best she believes that
and of course we don't know what she's thinking'
but to me with everything else considered
it's a thought she could very possibly be having
like a schizophrenic mother who believes that she's got to kill their kids to praise the spaghetti gods or something
she still recognizes that she loved them
but her devotion to the spaghetti is greater because of her condition
dawn knot
well i mean i feel like near every voiceline and interaction is proof of it in some way
but individual cases need be addressed
peak escarp
they could also be counterevidence, based on how you interpret the voice lines
dawn knot
i feel too like my theory makes the most sense at least, in a complicated way lol
i mean of course
and that's the fun in it
we don't know till we know
peak escarp
it's all up to interpretation
dawn knot
yep
peak escarp
and I don't think anything points to this
dawn knot
i mean, i don't see how any of your guys's prepositions jive with anything either so
we're in the same boat i guess
but if you could pick out certain things i said and give evidence against them
that'd be
appreciated
peak escarp
that's not how the burden of proof works
I don't have to disprove your claims, you have to prove them
dawn knot
well i feel like i've given enough proof
but then again it's
well it's inference but everything here is
that's why you can't say it makes any less or more sense than any other theory out there about the specifics of widowmaker's psyche
peak escarp
it doesn't make sense because nothing supports it
dawn knot
i suppose that's your interpretation
i mean it strikes me as odd, if widowmaker wasn't in the first place brainwashed to believe that the organization she works for is good. then considering her remarks to moira, wouldn't she just leave and do her killing on her own terms?
also why would she even kill someone close to her in the first place if she wasn't manipulated into thinking it was a good thing to do
i doubt she would keep her mouth shut to overwatch the organization responsible for shutting down terrorists purely based on perhaps physical threats
which would be used in the absents of mental manipulation
peak escarp
Talon operatives kidnapped her and subjected her to an intense program of neural reconditioning. They broke her will, suppressed her personality, and reprogrammed her as a sleeper agent.
dawn knot
yes exactly
peak escarp
they did program her as a sleeper agent
dawn knot
which fits with my theories
i
say all of the above because that's what i feel yall are saying
and why it doesnt make sense to me
peak escarp
but nothing indicates that she was made to believe it was "for the greater good" or that she even thought it was a good thing
she might have been horrified by what she did, and Talon took her back by force
and continues to keep her there by force
dawn knot
well if she had no want to do it then why did she
peak escarp
because she was programmed as a sleeper agent
sleeper agents have no idea they are sleeper agents
they are triggered subconsciously
dawn knot
sleeper agents believe in what they are doing though when activated
but you're saying maybe she was just
extremely compelled to kill him
and then did
peak escarp
it's more of a reflex action than something willful
dawn knot
and then felt bad
dawn knot
well i mean depending on the circumstances you'd think it'd be hard to
do something as organized as that
on a whim
dawn knot
some kind of reflex
on her part
i'm not talking about talon's overarching plan
just like
she wakes up
"ok im kill now"
peak escarp
think of it like Winter Soldier
dawn knot
yes i know and he was conditioned into thinking he really wanted to do those things
that's how conditioning works
peak escarp
when they read out his trigger phrase, he acts against his will
dawn knot
of course it's against his will, but in that "activated" state
for all intents and purposes
that new personality in charge
wants to do those things
peak escarp
but that was just the brief moment when she killed Gerard
after that, she was taken in by Talon and numbed to emotion
she still has her free will, and she is still aware of what she is doing
she likely knows killing is bad, but does it because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive
dawn knot
ok, but that goes back to what i was saying earlier
why not just leave and kill people you want
rather than follow these people
unless you've been suggested to do so
suggested in terms of hypnosis
peak escarp
or she's being coerced
dawn knot
and also once an agent is triggered they could be like that forever
just as perhaps a similar character
black widow is
she was made a soldier
peak escarp
threatened with harm, or blackmailed - if she left Talon and did her own thing, she could be arrested
dawn knot
actually that's a bad example ngl
peak escarp
Talon protects her
dawn knot
i know but the thing is why act all of this extra way, smug towards tracer, and all of these comments boasting about the cold and whatnot
if you really didn't want any of it
dawn knot
exactly, she does but only because she was forced into liking it
peak escarp
so she enjoys what she does
dawn knot
of course
because of talon
it all fits with my theory like
the more i think about it
it all just makes sense
she honestly believes in what she's doing because she was manipulated by talon into feeling that way. triggered in the night by some means, she became fully like the WM we see today
and did the job no remorse
then most likely contacted talong by some other means
and rejoined what she believed was right
obviously not by choice
but now she's someone else
someone talon wants her to be
with memories in tact of course