maybe
#lore-discussion
peak escarp
smoky delta
I know the long code and the main one has to get id number and her case/serial number
Be not get
The tx58d1
I'm about the tx58d1
District 1 maybe?
No idea but the other 2 have to be her case number and her id or something
peak escarp
McCree: You always were the ambitious one, Ashe.
Ashe: You make it sound like a bad thing. You'd still be on a farm if it weren't for me.
McCree: Some days that doesn't sound so bad.
farmboy McCree makes sense
restive flower
I always figured he was.
peak escarp
I always wondered where his parents were and why he got into crime
now we kinda know
wonder if his family still has that farm
smoky delta
He probably was a run away
Local troubled youth who was either a run away or a teen who was not supervised and very bored
smoky delta
Oh there's also a voice line between them that reveals I think why he never really liked her
peak escarp
she's not his type
smoky delta
Yeah she's to rich
peak escarp
McCree: You know, you never were my type, Ashe.
Ashe: Too competent?
McCree: Too rich.
smoky delta
I'm happy their making more detailed voice lines
smoky delta
I feel like it may take a while but they will
peak escarp
the VAs were at the Blizzard campus recently, so maybe sooner than you think
smoky delta
Yeah but implementing them may take a little
smoky delta
I'm guessing 3 months till we have at least a handful for each hero
3 or sooner
Matthew and his hammer lol
peak escarp
Hanzo, Zen, Winston, Reinhardt, Symmetra, McCree, Sombra, Lucio, Reaper, Brigitte, Hammond
smoky delta
Mcree could have also just been a farm hand
Like no home, no job, worked on farm
I have a strong feeling he was a drop out
valid shell
Could be a dropout, or he might have just never had the opportunity to go to school.
worthy rose
trail axle
You underestimate us. That will be your undoing.
peak escarp
if it's not canon it doesn't matter
limpid agate
Can Omnics vote?
https://twitter.com/westofhouse/status/1059911707374616578
Twitter
sacred hamlet
so basically anywhere where omnics have the same rights as humans
limpid agate
So probably places like Numbani, USA, and Japan
ANd probably not Australia, Russia or the UK
peak escarp
yeah
limpid agate
Also, doing some misc wiki updates
Chateau Guillard should be near Annecy, France
According to her bio
And the first result in google being a chateau in a lake
peak escarp
that counts as a lake?
I realized the other day that the bios don't list the heroes's hometowns
just their "base of operations"
limpid agate
Yeah.
peak escarp
so the only hometown/birthplace we know are Soldier (Bloomington, Indiana), Reaper (Los Angeles, California) and Orisa (Numbani)
limpid agate
But Widow's was not listed as (formerly)
And she is shown to be currently operating out of the chateau
valid shell
And we know Zarya was born in a "remote Siberian village".
limpid agate
She only has interactions with McCree
sacred hamlet
Not surprising coming from a character that sprang from the ground with no hints prior
And then people call Hammond disconnected from the OW universe
peak escarp
most of the heroes don't have any interactions when they get added to the game, and it can take months for them to get added
they probably have them for Ashe and McCree because they were also recording for the animated short
sacred hamlet
Still
She won't have actual meaningful lines for anyone but McCree
She'll probably only have lines for Junk and Road
And some other filler ones
valid shell
?
Why would she have lines with Junk and Road over anyone else.
She's just as likely to talk to Sombra.
Or Zenyatta/Orisa, considering her relationship with B.O.B.
limpid agate
Ashe is like Zarya or Winston, in terms of character origin.
They saw the art
Then made a hero out of it
I think she is the first one since launch, too?
peak escarp
Hammond kinda is
since "hamster in a mech" is a continuation of the "jetpack cat" concept
but the mech part was a mechanic they wanted to put in the game
iron plume
There was already a place for "hammond" in-universe before they started working on him though
limpid agate
Hammond is more
We wanted a cute hero
They were intentionally trying to make a cute hero and went through many iterations, and eventually landed on hamster ball.
So I guess kind of?
timid eagle
But Mei’s cute!
peak escarp
they've said heroes come from three places: game mechanics, story, and visual design
Ashe was definitely story/design first
limpid agate
Ana, Orisa, Moira and Brig were all gameplay.
Sombra and Doomfist were story.
Hammond and Ashe were art.
Echo will be story too, by the looks of it
feral lintel
don't we know that sombra's hometown is dorado? that's kind of a plot point in the "searching" comic
regal coyote
echo is story, and she seem to be oen of the one really early to be here character
Hammond is also the merge of two gameplay character concepts
one is a megnet hero, the other is the rolling ball hero
they want a cute hero and decide to slap the hero on this merged concept
McCree is a gun.
They like the Half Life 3 gun, and build a character around it.
and St. Mercer decended from the havens, and point to McCree, saying "i wanna be this one" And it is good.
So yeah, basically Mercer wants to be mccree, and the name is just some not-important employee in blizzard
OK, we go through characters 1 by 1 and see
Ana - gameplay concept, alchemist dude in hazmat suit
Bastion - ??? not sure, guess they need a robot? his kit esp ult goes through many rendition though
Brig - game play, plus popular demand of character
D.Va - cause it is a cooll concept (?)
Doomfist - story, popular demand
Genji/Hanzo - split from a ninja assassain hero with too many stuff in his kit
junkrat / roadhog - from the project titans i guess
lucio - no idea
mcCree - gun
iron plume
what the hell does mccree's gun have to do with half life
regal coyote
mei - frome arly concept, she used to be canadian i think, and have a bad ass ice climber / lara croft feel, before the sjw itnerference
@iron plume Yes. it does.
The story the dev give is that they love that pistol in half life, and decide to build a character around a gun like that
iron plume
"SJW interference", also known as "blizzard wanted to have more distinct character bodies"
basically except for the ones with a known story you're bullshitting
regal coyote
i am not saying it is a bad thing, yes sjw are bitches. but in this case the result is positive, we get zarya and mi out of it
and hopefully mroe
nope.
the genji-hanzo thing is from dev
iron plume
those are the ones with a known story
regal coyote
the hazmat suit conecept of ana is from dev
well most of thsoe are from dev one way or another really
the gueese are just guesses
anaa one is from dev, dont knwo abotu bastion, but the info is real about his kit changing
brig one is not bull shit
dva as said not sure
iron plume
Ana's kit was taken from the alchemist concept, but the character is story-driven
the alchemist looked barely like her
regal coyote
i guess, the alchemist part is from the dev, they dont mention much about the story side of her, but i personally want more of the story side,
good to see old people in game that kicks ass
we know junkrat is from part of some project titans thing.
they even show some old photos, about the guy with explosives.
though it looks quite different
but the project titans stuff they show have a grandade guy concept
not sure about hog though.
we also know from the same thing both tracer and gabe is fromt he same project titans playing class.
actually want to knwo the idea behind symmetra and zen
obviously not a ganeplay for symmetra
i mean her kit is still changing
well torb got his kit changed too, but at least we know they wanted a builder of turret like old shool TF2
but not sure about sym
sacred hamlet
I don't think one can argue that the old OW female characters were pretty fucking bad
All with the same body shape and silhouette
peak escarp
All?
sacred hamlet
Except for Zarya
peak escarp
even Zarya and Mei?
sacred hamlet
and amybe tracer
Yeah, but reminder that Zarya and Mei were results of the SJW outrage
no female characters looked that different until they started complaining
peak escarp
do you know how long heroes are in development for?
they were working on them for months before anyone complained
sacred hamlet
I don't support bitching but it was actually pretty embarassing how uncreative Blizz was with females back then
peak escarp
they just happened to come out at that point
sacred hamlet
no
the character design and gameplay are done first
concepts are chosen later
they could have very well chosen zarya's and mei's current looks around 3-5 months before their reveals
peak escarp
character design
sacred hamlet
it's pretty obvious they were a result of the backslash
sacred hamlet
nah i'm talking gameplay itself
you can take a look at hammond yourself
he had multiple versions before one was chosen
and i'm being logical here
It's simply too coincidental that the OW Team popped out characters like Mei and Zarya right after the criticism they got
feral lintel
not everything is an SJW conspiracy or whatever
sacred hamlet
After the embarassing start they had with OW's female characters
it may as well have been one
iron plume
"embarassing start" as in Tracer and Pharah?
yeah what terrible role models and representations
peak escarp
the only thing they changed because of complaints was Tracer's victory pose
subtle moss
I still lol about that
sacred hamlet
Tracer is just a shrunk version of the other female characters
but I wouldn' tblame her
out of all the starting ones
she's the most unique gameplay and character wise
peak escarp
which I don't really get
subtle moss
"Perky british girl"
sacred hamlet
The real problem was widow, symmetra and Mercy
iron plume
Can't you just see the default "female character" look of
big bulky armor with a jetpack
wew
subtle moss
What? Sym is the most unique.
sacred hamlet
maybe design wise
peak escarp
Widow Symmetra and Mercy are about as different as you can get while keeping the model thin and pretty
sacred hamlet
which is still wasted
iron plume
Sym is of a nationality that's extremely underrepresented in media
subtle moss
The others are walking stereotypes, not that I find anything wrong with that tbh.
iron plume
Widow is poking at the femme fatale thing, which necessarily indulges in some of the same tropes
subtle moss
These things exist for a reason.
feral lintel
it's kind of funny how most people consider mercy the character with the most fanservice nowadays when widow was designed to be a femme fatale
iron plume
cliche and stereotype have a negative connotation
That's because mercy's look is way less menacing
peak escarp
Mercy doesn't even have a large chest - her suit is just molded with C cups
iron plume
i mean
subtle moss
Mercy is probably my least favorite female. Hrm.
peak escarp
compare to her Devil/Imp skins
sacred hamlet
is widow really supposed to be a femmale fatale or whatever
iron plume
that means she has c-cups
sacred hamlet
she really doesn't seem like the seductive type
subtle moss
I do like her design but her persinality, yikes.
iron plume
the default look is what's important
subtle moss
She LOOKS like it.
subtle moss
She doesn't have to act like it.
sacred hamlet
she's supposed to be an effective assassin
iron plume
while subverting the actual personality tropes
sacred hamlet
which unfortunately gave her the most boring character design ever
iron plume
what don't you like about mercy's personality
subtle moss
I dunno. I just find it the least engaging\likeable of the female characters. Might just be my inner hipster though.
Moira is probably my favorite.
(Inner hipster because she seems to have a huge/vocal fan base, or at least that's my perspective)
Design wise I like her a lot though.
Since her wings look cool.
iron plume
most of her fanbase doesn't like her for personality lul
Imo she's got a good character but has had little time to actually show it
peak escarp
a lot of people complain that Mercy is boring or has no personality, so they make her secretly evil instead
iron plume
because she hasn't been present in the lore and you can't really show "strong pacifist principles" in-game
peak escarp
which is the worst and most cliché personality there is
iron plume
except for a couple interactions which she has
peak escarp
"secretly good Reaper" is just as bad
subtle moss
Because that's more interesting than k
Playing her totally straight, at least as far as I'm concerned.
peak escarp
there's 29 heroes
iron plume
People assume she's just a "good guy" pushover
subtle moss
Secretly "good" is too strong, but there's room for Reaper to be a lot less evil than portrayed.
peak escarp
people are going to find some of them boring
iron plume
because we haven't actually seen her resolve tested
subtle moss
There's a biig gap in his story iirc.
peak escarp
yes
feral lintel
reaper is pretty boring overall, which is why there's so many strange theories about him
iron plume
His face heel turn is a bit too quick and hasn't been explained
subtle moss
Yes.
peak escarp
I don't think fans should be the ones to fill in the gaps
subtle moss
Yeah, crazy fanatics.
peak escarp
Mercy stands behind her morals
iron plume
Her character is defined by staunch principles
subtle moss
Which is why it's going to be funny if she gets properly tested because doing it.properly will unequivocally make her look like a 'bad' guy.
iron plume
but they haven't been tested visibly in what lore we have of her
I would love that
not "bad"
peak escarp
everyone seems to forget she was in Uprising
iron plume
but at odds with new overwatch
she's also immensely regretful about betraying her principles once and joining old overwatch
subtle moss
No, it will make her look bad. Because to properly test her principles will require her to make a big sacrifice that most people would find insanity.
iron plume
which is why people who are saying she'll join the new one at the drop of a hat don't know what the fuck they're talking about
peak escarp
("everyone" being people on reddit/the forums)
Mercy is the hero I expect to say No to the recall, at least initially
subtle moss
Rather, it will make her look bad if she sticks to them.
peak escarp
she'll eventually say yes because she needs to be in the story, but there will be a good reason
subtle moss
But there's normally a lesson that fanaticism, of any type, tends to be problematic.
iron plume
So what you get is people who don't know what her character is and then refuse to accept the parts of her that are there saying that she doesn't have any
and making shit up like being secretly evil because "more interesting"
I don't see her joining even then
She'll help, likely after the battle when some hero needs her medical help
peak escarp
it's the same thing with Pharah - people complain that she's rigid and serious with no personality, not realizing that rigid and serious is her personality
iron plume
but not join
with Pharah people at least admit she has that
they just say it's boring
with Mercy people straight up deny her core personality trait
subtle moss
Because her core personality trait is actively denied by the game.
So it slips past the register.
peak escarp
it's hard to have a staunch pacifist in a shooter game
subtle moss
Why does she have a gun? She SHOULDN'T have a gun.
peak escarp
if the game was true to her character, she wouldn't even have a gun
iron plume
It's not even the pacifism
it's the principles in general
peak escarp
but it's a shooter, and she needs to be able to defend herself
iron plume
stun dart let's go
subtle moss
Which is what I'm saying. Her wxistence in the game is antithetical to her entire character.
peak escarp
yeah because that works so well for Ana
subtle moss
Also, she could have ways of defending herself without a gun
iron plume
no but like a better one
subtle moss
Might make her more interesting too
iron plume
She's a field medic
her primary job in the game is her primary job in lore
that's actually not something everyone has
I agree that it doesn't really show in the game properly
which is why it's even more annoying that she doesn't have much lore
subtle moss
But her possessing and using a gun is against everything her character stands for, no?
peak escarp
Lucio's job is completely different from his role in the game
subtle moss
There's a huge disconnect between some of the characters in the game and in the lore.
iron plume
almost everyone does things in game they don't in-universe
subtle moss
Most people will assume that Zen has weord healy magic
iron plume
either because they wouldn't or because they're incapable
Zen's actually the one strange case
because Mercy mentions his healing in an interaction
subtle moss
Yes, but for the vast majority of the pkayerbase that's what they are.
iron plume
they're not canon but it implies that someone in-universe at least thinks he has them
subtle moss
So Mercy is her game character to most people. Who is pretty boring.
iron plume
okay, let's indulge it
how would making her secretly evil affect her in-game
would she end every conversation with "and fuck you good guys"?
iron plume
People are saying she's boring
subtle moss
As someone said, people invent her being evil because she's dull.
iron plume
which, fine, say she is in-game
nova elbow
given that Zen's dincrod orbs are implied to affect their target's mental state, I wonder if the healing orbs are "healing" through moral support
iron plume
how would making her evil make her less boring in-game
she will still be healing and rezzing
subtle moss
Her being 'evil' I've always interpreted as more of an insane messiah complex than edgy reaper type evil anyway.
iron plume
She already has cheeky lines on eliminations
and some sarky ones related to helping people out
subtle moss
Like Light from Death Note if you've seen that.
peak escarp
Zen's healing is like faith/spiritual healing that works by accident
iron plume
we have moira for the messiah complex
subtle moss
Those theories existed long before Moira
iron plume
and now we have moira for that
ebon laurel
Moira isn't evil though is she?
iron plume
oh jesus christ not this too
iron plume
thank you
subtle moss
I know, I like Moira. Said that earlier. And yeah, she's amoral, not evil.
peak escarp
most of the "evil Mercy" theories are tied to her Resurrecting people, either because she wants to create monsters or she can't let anyone die
peak escarp
people also think witch mercy means real mercy is evil
subtle moss
By most interpretations she's evil but since she doesn't seem to derive enjoyment from doing 'bad' things (unless I missed something) she's amoral, not evil.
iron plume
that started with Imp lol
peak escarp
it's an AU, people
iron plume
amoral people are evil
If you do things for your benefit while not giving a shit about their consequences
peak escarp
Symmetra isn't actually a dragon either
iron plume
you're evil
ebon laurel
Oh no, sym isn't a dragon? My life is a lie
iron plume
no one in real life (or well written fiction) does evil for shits and giggles
iron plume
indulge me
subtle moss
There are people who torture animals for 'shits and giggles', for instance.
sacred hamlet
you mean Moira
peak escarp
Moira doesn't torture animals
subtle moss
But they also don't do it for a debatable purpose, like Moira.
peak escarp
she experiments on them, for a purpose
subtle moss
Yes, but it can mean amoral, depending on purpose.
iron plume
Stalin was taking grain for purpose of establishing communist rule
Hitler was you know the drill
You can do evil things for a purpose
even one that you think is doing good
and be evil
Moira is in a literal global terrorist organization
developing their weapons
sacred hamlet
Do you think Kim Jong Um starves his people for a purpose
subtle moss
Yes, actually.
sacred hamlet
Maybe Moira is Kim Jong Um
sacred hamlet
Like Moira
subtle moss
Dictatorships do well by keeping the people weak.
iron plume
glad we agree then
subtle moss
I differentiate amoral and evil by intent and purpose.
sacred hamlet
someone has to disagree with you first on a moral level to make it evil
subtle moss
Ultimately it comes down to semantics and perspective however, so this is strictly and explicitly my interpretation, however.
sacred hamlet
but they're all from OW
iron plume
Winston, Tracer
sacred hamlet
the good guys
iron plume
it's almost like
sacred hamlet
is this a conspiracy
iron plume
sigh
limpid agate
Shitposting will result in a loss of access
iron plume
thank you
sacred hamlet
I see no shitpost here mister
It's almost like OW and Talon are the opposite with their own morals and ideals
peak escarp
of course the good guys are going to think the bad guys are bad
iron plume
It's almost like one of them are supposed to be the moral compass
subtle moss
Something that is self-serving or unnecessarily cruel or harmful. It's why I don'g consider Doomfist evil, but instead amoral.
Consider a man that murders for money because he wants it, and a man that murders for money because he needs it for his sick daughter's medical treatment.
iron plume
okay
sacred hamlet
Wait
iron plume
Would waging a war on a neighboring country to get more land be evil then
sacred hamlet
since when does doomfist have a daughter
subtle moss
Put simply.
Good means, good ends, good.
Evil means, good ends, amoral.
Evil ends, evil.
iron plume
You're serving your people by giving them more resources
sacred hamlet
ah I see
subtle moss
In that case it differs by intent and circumstance. At best it is a lighter shade of gray and at worst, yes, evil.
Are you going for the land because your people are poor and starving? Do you wish to have it to increase your own personal power?
Morality isn't something boiled down to strict codes and guidelines very easily. And it varies heavily by perspective, too.
Is the man preventing a willing subject from undergoing ritual sacrifice a hero preventing a misinformed tragedy, or an impudent fool whose actions will cause the mountain god's wrath to devour the world?
You think Moira is evil, and I think she is amoral. We are both right.
feral lintel
wrt the whole "reaper is secretly good" theory, i think "reyes was secretly evil" makes a lot more sense
subtle moss
Not really. The problem with reaper is just that his huge offpanel heelfaceturn hasn't been elaborated on.
feral lintel
you mean face-heel turn
and i'm providing an explanation for it
it's just my opinion
regal coyote
i would just say reaper/reyes is a person that would "win at all cost" whatever he is doing
and he is a bit nutty after all those treatment
so yeah he is working towards taking down whatever he thinks he needs to take down, for one reason or another
not saying he is good, cause obviously he is on the darker shades of grey, but it does not mean he wants to kick puppies and put pineapples on pizza.
actually he DOES put pineapple on pizza, so yeah (dont argue, it is said by papa jeff)
regal coyote
but srsly he is mroe like team rocket evil in a way, which means he would probably love lil dogs and what not in secret
remember, most people would feel mroe sad seeing a hurt dog than a hurt human, just saying
dire timber
oh god, did we have this "are these amoral members of a terrorist group evil??" discourse again
feral lintel
i reckon the only reason anyone tries to defend reaper or insist that he's secretly good is because they think he's hot
or because they want to ship him with someone
subtle moss
And because he had a weirdly fast major offscreen change of alignment
feral lintel
nah, they don't care about that
iron plume
they may not but it's a reason
I don't think he's secretly good but I still find the turn strange
subtle moss
I just hope there's something a little more compelling to it than 'lol he mad at jack"
feral lintel
that's what they're setting it up as
subtle moss
Like the bombings being instigated by the upper echelons of Overwatch/some governments
feral lintel
i feel like it's pretty obvious that reyes had a hand in the bombing
feral lintel
so, the HQ just conveniently blew up when he decided to stage a coup?
subtle moss
And he got caught in it himself?
iron plume
it wouldn't be "convenient"
it could be someone else's plan that relied on Reyes getting all coup-y
subtle moss
Dude was the leader of Blackwatch, I'd like to at least credit him with not getting caught in his own damn bombing. Also makes hs anger about "leaving [ana] to die and [him] to suffer" really lolzy and facepalm
feral lintel
sombra even teases him about how his careful planning never seems to go right
iron plume
like Talon's, for one
feral lintel
in an interaction
subtle moss
She could also mean all the Talon missions that went pear shaped
...like the one she caused.
feral lintel
also, he could totally have been lying to ana to get her to join his cause
like "see? overwatch didn't care about you either. that's why you should ditch jack and join me instead"
limpid agate
Based on what lore we have
That doesnt seem like him lying
Just seeing the scenario as, she was left near Poland MIA
regal coyote
^
and i do think reaper's anger towards overwatch leaving him to die might be true
granted, he is part of the problem on that conflict so it might be right to let him rot
feral lintel
how could they possibly "leave him to die" if the organization stopped existing on that day?
subtle moss
But it also makes his Jack vendetta a little more odd since the same thing happened to him.
regal coyote
that and it is likely true that someone else is causing the explosion of the HQ, a third partyother than jack/reyes
feral lintel
i think we should just drop the subject. it'll probably make more sense if the writers ever decide to revisit it
this plotline is currently being held together by duct tape and retcons 😆
subtle moss
RiP
dire timber
I think Reyes blames Jack for the explosion
which is why he also blames Jack for his current state
because it's probably the injuries he sustained in the explosion that caused all the side effects of Moira's experimentation
@feral lintel the organization lasted until the year after actually
Overwatch disbanded 5 years before Recall
but the Overwatch HQ explosion occurred 6 years before Recall
... also, as a side note, I think Doomfist was arrested within that time period – after the explosion
it feels fitting. no uniforms, Winston out in the field
it's like Overwatch was already disorganized at that point
regal coyote
interesting idea really
it does fit i guesss since the doomfist fight consist of young overwatch member only
limpid agate
Its implied Doomfist and Reaper met each other before his arrest, at the very least.
regal coyote
as for the HQ explosion, we truly dont know if it is an accident or not. (most likely not) but whatever it is, not a event reaper set up himself, nor is it jack
since now both of these want to find the ones responsable, if there is one
feral lintel
reaper doesn't seem to care who blew up the HQ anymore
regal coyote
for sure reaper and doomie met before he got taken down
feral lintel
all he wants to do is kill off every former overwatch agent
dire timber
I think after the events of Retribution, Reyes was already (unknowingly) working for Talon through Moira, but was only properly introduced and recruited into the organization after the explosion.
regal coyote
well reaper still want his revenge
but for him talon is a nice place to chill so he is fine working with them
feral lintel
i wonder what made him go from hating talon to gladly being one of their leaders
dire timber
a gradual process, I would say
at first, Moira gets kicked out after the events Retribution
but Reyes stays in contact with her
Moira asks for favors now and then – and unbeknownst to Reyes, the favors are missions for Talon
regal coyote
i think lots of small complex events happened
and the polictics involving other people and overwatch plays a part too
also not sure if the Petra person is clean either
feral lintel
maybe he subscribes to doomfist's philosophy and thinks talon will do more for humanity than overwatch ever did
regal coyote
maybe another more corrupt politian
dire timber
uh
anyhow, once the Overwatch HQ explosion happened
Reyes heavily wounded, suffering from severe side effects of Moira's experimentation
Moira found him, helped him out, and revealed to him that she's working with Talon
regal coyote
not sure if heavily wounded is even a factor, but yeah that.
dire timber
and offers him to join
regal coyote
though i think reyes goes full talon before that
also, i do agree moira is a key on that
dire timber
I doubt Reyes would be willing to work with Talon before the HQ explosion
regal coyote
kinda like the contact and link between talon, and the transision of reyes-reaper
feral lintel
idk, still seems like too big of a change to me
regal coyote
we not sure about the circumstances
dire timber
@feral lintel you followed through with my theory, right?
regal coyote
reyes might think he was doing the right thing at the time
dire timber
what do you think doesn't work?
regal coyote
and we know how reyes is a big "end justify the means" person
granted, it a good thing
dire timber
uh
feral lintel
it just makes sense in my mind that he was never really a good person
dire timber
up until Retribution, he wanted to keep the world safe, no matter what
even if his methods were more extreme than others'
feral lintel
eh
dire timber
ever since that event, however, he kept letting his anger get the better of them
his relationship with Jack and Ana worsened
regal coyote
i would say even during retribution what he does is still a good end
dire timber
he started going rogue, doing things on his own
regal coyote
i mean, taking down a key terrorist for both world peace and avenge for fallen teammate
but yes, it shows he is being too impulsive
dire timber
@regal coyote he lost control of the situation, strayed from the mission, exposed Blackwatch to the world
not exactly a great outcome
feral lintel
he still seems to respect ana in the present day though
regal coyote
hell, had it been an assassination mission from start things would be much much better
feral lintel
even if he doesn't like that she sided with jack
dire timber
@feral lintel he relates to her somewhat
regal coyote
ana is abandoned afterall
dire timber
he feels he was "left behind" by Overwatch, that Overwatch is responsible for his state
and Ana, well
regal coyote
and i doubt it is jack that makes the call of abandoning her
dire timber
something similar happened to her
feral lintel
she willingly disappeared
pure kernel
That's why he tries to convince her
regal coyote
well, but jack did not knwo it
technically you always search for lost teammates, dead or alive
dire timber
@feral lintel you've read Legacy, haven't you?
Overwatch disengaged, with Ana being MIA, presumed KIA
that's what Reyes knew of the incident
peak escarp
Jack made the decision to get the scientists to safety rather than stay and look for Ana
by the time he might have gone back to look for her, she would have been gone
pure kernel
It was for the greater good
peak escarp
Jack is justified in his decision
Reyes didn't see it that way
he saw it as Jack abandoning their friend
subtle moss
No, but it's potential justification for him working with Talon.
In a sort of twisted way.
Jack left Ana behind 'for the greater good'.
dire timber
meh
subtle moss
Talon does terrorist acts... 'for the greater good'.
I don't mean the justification obviously.
dire timber
meeeeh
subtle moss
But there was a similarish circumstance in something else I'm forgetting right now.
Where someone betrays/attacks a 'good' group of people because something happened and they ended up seeing the 'good' and 'bad' guys as being basically the same thing with the same reasons.
I forget what it was though, bleh.
feral lintel
what?
valid shell
@subtle moss You're going to have to actually give us context.
subtle moss
Yes, but I forgot.
valid shell
Because I have no idea what you're referring to.
Sounds like fanfiction you thought was official
subtle moss
No, it has nothing to do with Overwatch directly.
valid shell
Oh.
subtle moss
The basic premise was that the someone became disillusioned with the 'good guys' because a small chain of events made them realise that there wasn't really much separating them from the 'bad guys'.
Oh, THAT'S what it fucking was.
Star Wars!
valid shell
Ah.
subtle moss
Anakin betraying the Jedi
valid shell
That's pretty tangentially related.
subtle moss
At least let me explain, and it's fine since it relates to something I was talking about.
valid shell
I'm not going to go off about Shrek 2 because it also has a character with a hat.
subtle moss
When Windu goes to kill Palpatine but Anakin just wants him arrested, Windu says he's 'too dangerous to be left alive.' This makes Anakin realise that they aren't all that different since Palpatine had him kill Dooku earlier with the exact same line.
yes, but it's a description of a potential similar situation.
Jack abandoning Ana for the 'greater good' might make him more open to working with Talon.
Since they're doing things for the 'greater good' as well.
valid shell
I doubt it. Jack let a major threat get away to save a little girl.
He's far from "muh greater good".
subtle moss
Well, that's what I was told by the people further up in this channel.
valid shell
A lot of people here think that everyone on the roster will join either OW or Talon eventually.
Which is foolish.
pure kernel
Yeah. I mean simply put, Jack is good Reaper is bad. No need to go over details right there pfff
feral lintel
they should just get killed off so that the story can focus on more interesting characters
pure kernel
Yeah, like Mercy
subtle moss
lol
Reaper would be interesting if he had that part of his backstory actually fleshed out
The bombing changed Jack from idealist niceguy to a morally gray pseudo-antihero, and it changed Reyes from that to a grimderp edgelord. There has to be something in between we're missing.
Then again they just might not have thought that far.
feral lintel
or they want to avoid elaborating on that because "muh ships"
subtle moss
Just like Cree and Ashe.
Like hell there was never anything between them Chu. Like hell.
pure kernel
The difference with Jack here is that he was working for Ow when he left Ana behind '4 da greater gud.' He doesnt in Hero
subtle moss
Semantics and wordplay at best.
feral lintel
i really hope the writers can get the guts to finally kill off the absolute nonsense that is reaper76 in the future
valid shell
I'm fine with unrequited attraction from one of the two to the other.
Between Jack and Gabe, I mean.
feral lintel
this is superwholock all over again
two male characters have some kind of a relationship/rivalry/whatever and people are utterly convinced it's romantic
i just want blizzard to add an actual male lgbt character so that people can finally stop arguing and speculating
pure kernel
I see Ashe and McCree treating each other like siblings
valid shell
So, what. You'd rather a rehash of Tyrande and the Stormrage bros?
regal coyote
mccree may think of her as a sis yes
valid shell
@feral lintel Only add? You wouldn't want an existing character to come out of the closet?
regal coyote
but she for sure has feel for mccree.
pure kernel
Y'know, the rivalry thing going on, frenemies
regal coyote
siblings, if they were lannisters that is
valid shell
Ashe's whole thing is family, so her seeing McCree as a brother seems on point.
feral lintel
@valid shell it's pretty clear at this point that they're writing all the current male characters as straight. i don't want to hold onto that idea and get disappointed
limpid agate
There is no romance between McCree and Ashe. Stop trying to shoehorn a romance between McCree and Ashe.
pure kernel
Yes because she's all about family and McCree left "the gang" so I kinda see why she sort of hates him
regal coyote
it is clear SOME male character is straight or bi, that is about it
regal coyote
we dont know about most of them
chu said there si no rmance
so no romance happened
feral lintel
@valid shell no, they don't. and i don't mean in a stereotypical way. every single time there's flirty dialogue in the game it's between a man and a woman
pure kernel
Also, I dont think McCree would be gay, cuz of the stereotype. If anything, he'd be into robots
regal coyote
and we dont know the future.
subtle moss
Yeah, and why she keeps a picture of them together on her dash...
'cause she's just so, so mad.
regal coyote
but yes there is ex-girlfriend energy, whatever chu means
limpid agate
You dont keep a picture of your sister in your wallet?
subtle moss
I don't have a sister.
valid shell
There's 0 flirty dialogue between Tracer and a female hero.
valid shell
Tf you on about.
feral lintel
because she already has a girlfriend
regal coyote
i dont keep picture of anyone on me
feral lintel
you want her to cheat on emily?
limpid agate
Theres nothing weird with having pictures of your family in your wallet.
subtle moss
If you're a parent and it's a family photo, maybe.
But otherwise?
Maybe it's cultural differences.
valid shell
And a current male character can't be in a committed relationship with an NPC?
peak escarp
I wouldn't have such an issue with a relationship between McCree and Hanzo if they actually had a connection or anything between them
it they don't
they haven't met, and they barely have an interactions
regal coyote
@limpid agate not that, but the picture is torn and stick together again
limpid agate
That ship literally only exists because they were the only two "attractive males" to exist back then
The others were
REin, Torb, Zen, and Reaper
Oh and Winston
valid shell
Blizzard releasing a brand new male hero explicitly as The Gay One™ would be a major fuckup.
regal coyote
rein is attractive :3
valid shell
Rein being gay would be great.
subtle moss
And young Jack
limpid agate
Jack didnt exist back then
feral lintel
rein flirts with ana, so no
limpid agate
There were 4 months between Jack and McCree
subtle moss
He's in the origins thing.
limpid agate
He is a release hero
The game released in 2016
The game was revealed in 2014
There were 9 hero reveals in 2015
regal coyote
as long as zarya is not gay then everything is fine
valid shell
You must not have any gay friends. They butter up their female friends all the time.
It would be on point.
limpid agate
The original roster was:
Rein, Winston, Bastion, Hanzo, Pharah, Reaper, Symmetra, Torbjorn, Tracer, Widow, Mercy, Zen
valid shell
How do I combat this.
limpid agate
By dropping it
valid shell
I always do.
limpid agate
👍
feral lintel
all i'm saying is, i've been disappointed several times before, so i'm not holding my breath
regal coyote
put it this way, part of mccree is what mercer wanted to be, if he had mroe facial hair
feral lintel
introducing a character as The Gay One would be bad, yes, but it seems the most likely
iron plume
it doesn't
valid shell
They didn't do it with Tracer.
iron plume
because blizz aren't dumb to it
feral lintel
eh, maybe i'm just a pessimist
valid shell
Seems like it.
iron plume
there's being pessimistic and there's ignoring precedent
feral lintel
also, i think lgbt women are "safer" to add, because straight men (the general target audience for video games) tend to find them tantalizing
valid shell
Sans Torb, any of the current males might be gay, and considering Blizz has reiterated that there already is an LGBT hero, one almost definitely is.
And let's not go down that route.
feral lintel
it's probably sombra, since she already flirts with a few women in-game
another "safe" choice
regal coyote
we can excluse the unsafe choice, like torby.
subtle moss
Yes, there is already an LGBT hero. Tracer.
regal coyote
and winston, a bad choice also
subtle moss
Unless they mean additional, or male one?
valid shell
You have a very loose idea of what flirting is.
peak escarp
Torb could be bi
valid shell
@subtle moss There's at least one more in addition to Tracer.
regal coyote
and ana we can exclude.
feral lintel
look, i'll stop complaining when i see results
valid shell
?
subtle moss
Since he was a playboy apparently.
regal coyote
and mercy too
valid shell
Playboys can smash dudes.
feral lintel
until then, i don't have faith in blizzard to make an existing male character lgbt
it'll be too big of a risk
regal coyote
so we have 24 hero to choose from (exclude omnics and creatures)
of the 24 we can kick out those with family for sure, like ana and torb
still 22
regal coyote
cause from blizz point of view, making torb going gay is more of a problem.
iron plume
it doesn't exclude them but it's unlikely
regal coyote
just like it is unlikely they make zarya gay, too much of a butch stereotype, that and russia bitches
valid shell
Torb being bi would be boring af. Stop being intentionally antagonistic.
regal coyote
it DOES exclude them, from a tactical point ov view
iron plume
which is also why they wouldn't do it
regal coyote
not from reality, but from blizz's point of view, it is bad to make them lgbt
feral lintel
just because torb isn't an attractive young man doesn't mean making him lgbt would be "boring"
iron plume
it's not because of a shitshow or boring or whatever
it's simply because they're shown a certain way in the story
regal coyote
not that dear, it is mroe like, blizz wont make something that is bad for pr
iron plume
you're like the people going "but tracer could still be bi rite"
valid shell
@feral lintel He's married my dude.
feral lintel
i can see them making torb lgbt as a joke, though
regal coyote
so if there is a lgbt character they would be someone nice and able to be in a spotlight
peak escarp
no, Tracer was explicitly said to be a lesbian
peak escarp
has anyone asked if Torb is straight?
regal coyote
same goes, people liek zarya and mei would nto be written to be gay, for polititical reasons
feral lintel
no, because he's not someone people like shipping
regal coyote
^
iron plume
no one gives enough of a shit about torb to
feral lintel
they only asked if tracer was bi because "muh straight ships"
iron plume
more like "because she's my waifu"
feral lintel
asking if torb is straight is like asking if hammond is straight. who cares?
regal coyote
always think rein wold be a good choice for an older lebt member
valid shell
Gay Rein is my vote.
feral lintel
lots of people think they're gonna kill off reinhardt, so that would be pretty bad PR
regal coyote
well, jack too, but jack's character is "borrowed" so that might not be
valid shell
But he compliments a woman??? ? So apparently that invalidates Rein.
iron plume
stop being intentionally antagonistic
peak escarp
that would disqualify McCree too
valid shell
Rein bring gay would also quash all the gross shit with him and Brigs.
pure kernel
stop being intentionally antagonistic
valid shell
So it's a win-win.
regal coyote
^
feral lintel
not if they kill him off 👀
pure kernel
Wait
regal coyote
rein-brig is always a father daughter thing though
iron plume
you say that as if canon ever stopped anyone shipping
pure kernel
People ship rein and brig?
pure kernel
Oh my dear scheisse
regal coyote
dude i have seen people shipping winston with tracer, ppl are weird
peak escarp
they shouldn't but they do
feral lintel
anyway, wake me up when "there is more than one LGBT character in overwatch" isn't a big lie
valid shell
Sure, honey.
feral lintel
🙄
pure kernel
Ow is all about stereotypes
peak escarp
what stereotype?
iron plume
what stereotype
iron plume
plus, you're saying it as if there isn't a stereotype covering any type of person
feral lintel
apparently the stereotype that cowboys are inherently gay
peak escarp
he's an all-American outdoorsy southern gentleman stereotype
iron plume
trope
pure kernel
xd
peak escarp
and the "gay cowboy" stereotype is literally one movie
pure kernel
I mean
iron plume
but as I said
valid shell
We need Jewvia in here.
iron plume
there's not a single person in the world for whom there isn't a gay stereotype
because the categories are so broad
feral lintel
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GayCowboy
it's apparently enough of a trope to warrant this page
iron plume
anything is enough of a trope to warrant a page on tvtropes
peak escarp
McCree is based on the likes of John Wayne, Charlton Heston, Clint Eastwood
pure kernel
Ok peeps lets drop it
iron plume
they literally have a policy on no "worthiness" based deletions
peak escarp
traditional Hollywood cowboys
pure kernel
Spaghetti westerns
iron plume
anyway, Stereotype or not I could see mccree being gay
feral lintel
i don't
iron plume
but then again I could see just about any hero in OW being gay
that's kind of the thing isn't it
peak escarp
maybe we should drop the topic
pure kernel
Yes
iron plume
or just less shitposting
feral lintel
this topic went off the rails pretty far
pure kernel
Reaper is gaii
valid shell
LOL WAHT IF BASTION WAS GAY XDXDXD
pure kernel
What if
valid shell
Stop.
peak escarp
it seems like several of the villains come from wealthy backgrounds (are 1%ers), but none of the good guys are
iron plume
ironic shitposting is still shitposting, Binge
peak escarp
discuss
peak escarp
are they rich? or just well off?
pure kernel
Yes i was thinking the same
feral lintel
growing up in a privileged environment tends to cultivate some bad worldviews
peak escarp
their home looked fairly nice
pure kernel
Also gib rich good boi smh
peak escarp
@pure kernel in English please
pure kernel
Money doesnt necessarily spoil people
feral lintel
https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/overwatch_gamepedia/6/65/Brigitte_Origin_Story_art_1.png?version=c97271bc36cd4babeb4b0592d9d9286d
isn't this all we see of their home?
valid shell
But he can't do teh funni meem in normal human words.
peak escarp
there was also the bit from Reflections
pure kernel
Well he's got like a thousand kids so it makes sense
peak escarp
they have a nice house, but probably not a mansion
subtle moss
Wow, Torb's wife
peak escarp
not like Ashe
subtle moss
Also, they both have blonde hair
but brig has brown hair
apparently Blizz doesn't into genetics
or Mrs. Lindholm has a postman she's very fond of
peak escarp
Brigitte's hair is auburn
subtle moss
It's pretty clearly brown in that pic but I guess that's their artists for you. XD
peak escarp
red hair gene is separate from hair colour gene
valid shell
Why do Rein and Torb hang out in their tank tops.
pure kernel
I mean, it's plausible
valid shell
What weird friends.
subtle moss
Rein 'cause he's bodybuilderdude
feral lintel
warm day?
subtle moss
and Torb because he's mechanicdude
peak escarp
could just be a hot day
subtle moss
Brig is adorable here, it almost makes me hate her less.
pure kernel
He damn head bigger that her whole body rolled up in a ball
feral lintel
i spy ana's overwatch photo in the background
valid shell
Sven could possibly potentially maybe be an interesting hero, but he'd need a BIG fluff to make him distinct from Torb.
peak escarp
just a bit?
valid shell
Not just a bit.
peak escarp
that man loves his big muscley furbeasts
peak escarp
I'd like to get a glimpse of domestic life for some of the other heroes
valid shell
Which apparently still exists, since Brigitte has an Ironclad tattoo.
pure kernel
That lil gangster
valid shell
Don't you need to make a masterpiece to be eligible to join a guild?
pure kernel
Maybe she did
peak escarp
we've seen Winston, Tracer, Rein and Brig
valid shell
Flashback of Sojiro, Genjo, and Hanjo please.
pure kernel
Tiger mama
feral lintel
https://66.media.tumblr.com/eafa4037fa886e4c12342e08c4c1626c/tumblr_p5c5vhEIFT1r84g4co1_1280.jpg
oh hey, this is a cool artwork
pure kernel
Das not canon
valid shell
I would still like a Shimada aunt who was passed up as head of the clan by her younger brother, and engineered Sojiro's death and his sons duel.
valid shell
Moira is Irish.
pure kernel
Therefore she's evil
valid shell
?
pure kernel
?!
feral lintel
xd
peak escarp
speaking of Overwatch fanart by official artists
it's old, but this one is my fave
I want to see more downtime like this
peak escarp
I feel a lot more optimistic about the future of Overwatch lore now that I know there will for sure be more comics
it would be nice to get more than 2 shorts a year, but I know how much effort and time those take
feral lintel
lol, winston just doing flips outside
valid shell
Stop.
ebon laurel
Honestly thought the winston was a spray, woops
peak escarp
let's not go back to that
valid shell
These jokes aren't funny.
feral lintel
please stop memeing
valid shell
Just say what you want to say.
pure kernel
I said could've
valid shell
That's a nondiscussion.
pure kernel
Boohoo im not even trying to shitpost :<
limpid agate
Serious discussion strictly related to lore
pure kernel
Ok ok 
dire timber
@feral lintel still holding out for Genji being bi
and maybe a trans hero in, like, 2020
not holding my breath for the latter tbqh
feral lintel
i wouldn't count on it
dire timber
also, uh
still no black women in sight
😞
would it be hard to release, like, a pirate character from Haiti or something
limpid agate
Yeah.
peak escarp
why is a black woman in such high demand?
why not a Japanese woman? or a middle eastern man?
valid shell
Because Americans only care about blacks vs. whites.
sacred hamlet
For the same reason people want a homosexual male character
peak escarp
or someone else from South America?
sacred hamlet
Because it doesn't exist so it should exist
peak escarp
none of the things I mentioned exist in Overwatch
iron plume
there's two Asian women
peak escarp
not Japanese
dire timber
@peak escarp like others said, we already have Asian women