Then who’s is it?
#lore-discussion
native kayak
iron plume
no one's? it's just hollywood
native kayak
I thought all the maps were related to someone
peak escarp
not every map has an associated hero
iron plume
not really
peak escarp
who does with Ilios?
iron plume
ilios is the one with decidedly no connection
iron plume
Dorado used to have no one on release
Rialto doesn't have one
checks map list
Blizworld
Lijiang connected to winston/hammond but very tenuously
Oasis had no one at its release
native kayak
Do you think Blizzworld is in Irvine
iron plume
it is
http://overwatch.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/blizzcon-2017-overwatch-whats-next-panel-transcript/3
native kayak
Oh sweet, thanks!
peak escarp
the orange balloon you can see in the background is a real landmark
iron plume
ew
irvine is in orange county
native kayak
It’s not so bad here 😎 just expensive
iron plume
isn't that everywhere
native kayak
I wonder if UC Irvine exists in that universe lol
Well yeah but so cal is pricier to live in than indiana lol
cedar moon
I thought Lucio was ilios
cedar moon
Wh ilios is Greek?
peak escarp
yes
limpid agate
Ilios is in Greece
When you load into the map, there's a Greek flag
That means the map is in Greece
cedar moon
I don’t pay attention to flags
limpid agate
There's also giant Greek god statues
cedar moon
That’s true 😓
iron plume
and architecture
and music
worthy rose
Wasnt there a lucioball map in rio?
dire timber
@peak escarp Bedouin/Nomad are related to Genji being an assassin
which is a word of Arabic origin
dire timber
well, and assassins were Arabic killers
peak escarp
I still think the connection is the nomadic nature of Genji's wandering post-Overwatch
not the etymolgy of the word assassin
cunning ledge
agreed
dire timber
I mean, I gave you the explanation straight from the artbook
peak escarp
really?
dire timber
yeah
cunning ledge
hmm
dire timber
I don't have it, but I distinctly a picture of it
where it said that a number of the skins were based on the heroes' cultural origin
cunning ledge
por que no los dos
peak escarp
"Bedouin (right) represents an era in the hero's life when he wandered the globe, trying to make peace with his mechanized body."
so we're both right
dire timber
I think it should be noted that this still doesn't make the skin canon for that period of his life
.. the headwear could be
but the weapon? incredibly doubtful
peak escarp
Looking through the artbook
Makes me sad for what we could have gotten
For Widowmaker's Talon skin
rose escarp
what is it
limpid agate
Pic?
limpid agate
I like what we have mroe
peak escarp
Yes, that's the one
I just don't like the midriff showing on the one we got
Seems unecessary
limpid agate
I think its fine, since its Widowmaker
And also, since its just Widowmaker
Sombra's outfit is more sensible, and all the Talon units from Retribution are in full armor
worthy rose
If she still got that ass everytime is fine.
limpid agate
@worthy rose Reminder this is a SFW discord
worthy rose
Yes.
errant void
Mmm, I can understand why Doctor feels that way about it. The other Talon skins are very combative. It isn't exactly combat-conscious to leave that much skin exposted
limpid agate
Talon Doomfist is just as bad in that regard.
worthy rose
The Sombra Talon skin looks like 2010 Rihanna.
timid eagle
@worthy rose And that's a bad thing?
worthy rose
idk
twilit geode
But no armour does mean more flexibility, so it might be practical for a melee based hero to prioritize mobility against ranged opponents
flint aspen
regal coyote
If you assume doomfist have reenforced skin that might be the case.
But other than that, it might be reasonable to at least have some thin reenforced impact absorbant material at least.
we have reasonably cheap tech like that nowadays, cheap given what doomfist can afford at least.
that said, the glow and sem line at the hips suggest that the skin might by at least a synthetic layer on top, so that might be the case.
timid eagle
Makes me wonder if that body is the real deal, with regards to how much of it is organic and synthetic. Those abs are probably fake, too.
dire timber
@peak escarp I'm fine with the outfit and the normal skin, but the blue hair pisses me off
it really should be dark blue, at least
green lava
limpid agate
Ok, and?
errant void
I mean, murder isn't exactly new to the lore of Overwatch
regal coyote
you know most playable people in the game have killed right?
think about ana caping bitches in the head like a boss. yes murder and killing is not uncommon
worse if you count omnics
the ooungest ones may be a bit better, like brig most likely ahve not killed
limpid agate
Bastion, Mei, Orisa, Brig, Lucio, and Zenyatta are all very likely to have never taken a life.
D.Va and Zarya are likely to have never taken human life, since they kill omnics.
We dont know the extent of the Junkertown arena, but Hammond is the champ and may have killed some gladiators.
Tracer, Torbjorn, Rein, Winston, and Mercy are all Overwatch agents that were never shown to kill humans, but other agents have killed Talon agents openly.
The other half of the cast are killers
regal coyote
mercy unlikely ahve killed
tracer killed omnnics
winston may have killed talon agents
the original 6 kill omnics more than they chew bubblegum, since that was their job
young raptor
can we count the uprising event as canon lore? because if we can, then all 4 killed omnics
worthy rose
Why wouldn't we be able to cuber?
regal coyote
hammond may or may not have killed, it is a mech fight you dont HAVE to kill the other guys, but sports accidents happens. and may have been in games of neutralizing omnics as part of the job
Uprising is lore yes, but mercy unlikely to have killed.
hell we dont even think mercy have a pistol on her
but the other 3, yes.
especially rein, he wipe uout rows of thsoe omnics on his own
regal coyote
wonder if mei hasve killed any animals during her test process
young raptor
moira's bunnies 😢
regal coyote
like "oops! i think this squirrel broke after i unfreeze him. oh well, guess it is squirrel meat tonight then"
limpid agate
I never said they didn't kill omnics
I said that they may have killed humans
Omnics aren't as big of a deal.
Null Sector being the best example
regal coyote
Though we can assume all mooks are inferior pieces of shits, we do not know how tough/durable they are. I would say Rein and Winston at least seriously injured quite a few gangsters/talon grunts in the process, of not dead.
i mean in the comic rein literally smash some gangsters around with his rocket hammer
Bastion ... would depend. Many believe that is not his first mission, if that is so then he may have killed in his previous missions
I still maintain that Mercy, by nature, would not actively take a live, even if omnic.
regal coyote
well, those who get hit are 1) that Dragon gang that haress civilians and threatens kids, pretty much fits into the description of "pieces of shit" 2) those talon guys following reaper stealing overwatch agent date. Maybe not as vile but not much better
So yeah the description is right, especially for the ones Rein smite up.
peak escarp
only Reyes, Doomfist and Widowmaker have killed named characters
Reyes killed Antonio, Doomfist killed Akinjide Adeyemi and Vialli, and Widowmaker killed Gerard and Mondatta
limpid agate
Those are the major characters
Widow killed a few named OW agents in legacy
Junkrat and Roadhog killed the suit of Hyde global.
If you include Mondatta, Pharah killed(?) Anubis
peak escarp
Right
frosty shell
I doubt Pharah killed ANubis for good
regal coyote
with the exception of a few named above mentioned nothing gets killed for good in ow
Shimada got taken down, but not quite
venice get pacified, but not quite
Deadlock gang got taken down, but not quite
overwatch is dead, but not quite
it is a superhero story
so save some serious storyline most things would be somewhat status quo end of the day
terse oak
@graceful mica keep this out of serious discussion channels
dire timber
@peak escarp really wish we had Reaper kill a named character
who was also an Overwatch agent
so that people would know he's for real
cause right we know that he's killing Overwatch agents one by one, but we haven't seen him do it
which is why that knowledge doesn't really register with people
regal coyote
we know he is effective, but did not see him kill anyone as reaper (gabe got a kill yes)
mooks he killed lots though
errant void
Hmm. Something tells me they'll save that for someone big
We may not always know it, but everything is done for a reason
cunning ledge
inb4 background news headline "ex-overwatch agent mirembe dies, talon suspected"
and that's it
errant void
This may be a dumb question, but is Reaper eliminating Overwatch members at the order of Talon or is he on his own agenda? I know he was working with a team of soldiers when he attempted to hack into Winston's Overwatch database, but those were faceless soldiers. Did Talon think he could handle it on his own, or is he operating alone in that aspect?
cunning ledge
his own agenda
it's what he's getting out of siding with talon
so the recall mission was something he convinced the rest of the board to let him do, or something
errant void
Okay, so he is working on his own agenda, but Talon is letting him do it. Hmm
I love the lore behind Reaper, I think it's one of my favorites
worthy rose
I dont think were at the point in the story yet where a playable character will die
errant void
If it will ever happen
That means cutting off a hero. Imagine the outrage people would have, even if temporary
worthy rose
They dont have to be taken out of the game
If main characters dont die then there arent any stakes
runic scroll
Maybe they could kill a non-playable but important character
Like katya, the vishkar guy, etc
Also, do we know if blackwatch had foot soldiers like overwatch did?
Non-heroes
Well, not necessarily “foot soldiers”
But people who are just regular operatives and not mccree reyes genji moira
weary copper
I always have had 1 question
cunning ledge
talon has foot soldiers that recognised mccree, as in they were probably blackwatch in the past
weary copper
How does hanzos dragon work?
runic scroll
Isn’t mccree a pretty well known figure at this point though?
cunning ledge
no?
peak escarp
McCree recognizes that Talon is using Blackwatch techniques
runic scroll
And or talon just gave info to their soldiers
peak escarp
And one of the grunts recognizes him personally
runic scroll
But that could be because reaper is training them like he did blackwatch
And taught them who to loom out for etc
peak escarp
The implication is that former Blackwatch grunts were brought on the Talon
errant void
I'm assuming Reaper is teaching at least remotely similar tactics
weary copper
I have a non related question about Orisa
runic scroll
Look out*
errant void
Ask away ban
weary copper
Is Orisa made of spare parts or did Efi grab a robot and just upgrade it?
errant void
Both, I believe
peak escarp
She bought a decommissioned OR15 with her grant money
weary copper
Also does she still have memories from when she was an OR15
peak escarp
And fixed it up, gave it a custom personality module
New weapons
She does remember getting beaten by Doomfist
errant void
She wouldn't have memories if Efi replaced her personality module
Or at least all of them. I don't know how mechs work lol
peak escarp
There's a semi-rare voice line on Numbani attack
runic scroll
Eh maybe personality module and storage device are separate
errant void
ill let doctor talk now XD
peak escarp
Yes
runic scroll
Like you can change OS and still access files on old hard drive
peak escarp
Memory and personality are separate
weary copper
Also i have another question regarding omnics
From the maps we have, which maps hate omnics?
peak escarp
weary copper
oh
runic scroll
Just a place where there’s a more apparent conflict
weary copper
Also do Orisa and D.Va have any connections with overwatch since they're in the game?
peak escarp
No
runic scroll
None as far as we know
weary copper
what about lucio?
runic scroll
Nope
weary copper
symm?
runic scroll
Nope
weary copper
.>
runic scroll
Junkrat and hog nope as well
peak escarp
Efi knows about Overwatch (Chu said she might have watched an Overwatch Saturday morning cartoon or something), so she would have given Orisa knowledge of them
weary copper
Im guessing the big russian lady (forgot her name) nope too
peak escarp
DVa might have learned about Overwatch in school history classes
runic scroll
Zarya-Katya-Sombra-Talon-Blackwatch-Overwatch connection
weary copper
she's a pro gamer at 16, i doubt she went to school
runic scroll
But that’s a huge stretch
peak escarp
Zarya might be anti Overwatch since Russia didn't need them to beat the omnics
runic scroll
Pros in Korea do indeed go to school
peak escarp
Pro gamers still go to high school
runic scroll
Usually finish high school since it’s required education
runic scroll
Yeah you can see the poster in Hollywood
And some other maps
Well, you mean lorewise or animated short?
Yes to both anyway
weary copper
Also is there any voice lines between torb and zarya?
since torb created omnics and all
cunning ledge
there's a few
runic scroll
I don’t think he “created” them as much as contributed, or did he?
cunning ledge
one where zarya says something about how his creations have caused a lot of pain, and then he says something like "yeah i know m8"
he helped design them
and takes part responsibility for the whole crisis
runic scroll
Yeah
But he didn’t literally invent the idea of omnic, etc right?
Maybe he designed some mechanical aspects of omnics
cunning ledge
he designed the bastion units
runic scroll
But isn’t the origins of omnic ai kind of unknown?
cunning ledge
which were not omnics originally
just, like, read Destroyer again
and his hero bio
errant void
He contributed to their creation
cunning ledge
the designs he created weren't meant to be used for omnics
so in actuality he is at no fault
in fact he didn't even trust omnics before the crisis
iron plume
it's difficult to assign fault but he clearly thinks he's responsible
cunning ledge
yeah
cunning ledge
exactly
weary copper
what were the bastion designs originally for if they werent to be used for omnics?
runic scroll
Just security robot things I think
errant void
I believe they were meant for security purposes
iron plume
they were meant for omnics
runic scroll
Not omnic level ai
weary copper
they were suppost to be like torbs turrets im guessing?
iron plume
more like battle drones/robots controlled from a central location
valid shell
If only there was some convenient way to glean all this informa
cunning ledge
I like the theory that the Defense Matrix skin is the original design of Bastion unit - a human controlled peacekeeping robot
cunning ledge
how dare you let discussion happen
errant void
Omnic AI began as a self-improving software that became self aware
valid shell
When it's discussion filled with "I think" and "I believe", best to factcheck.
errant void
Then, obviously, omniums became self aware and began creating omnics that were also self aware, hence Bastion
runic scroll
Omnic crisis just turned omnics against humans, right? Not omnics who disliked humans in the first place who decided to band together?
valid shell
We don't know.
errant void
The company that created the Omnics was shut down due to fraud, but decades later Omniums went rogue after becoming self aware and started created Omnics, which inspired the Omnic Crisis
weary copper
so the omniums themselves were self aware?
errant void
Yes, they are
weary copper
i thought the omnic crisis was due to hackers
errant void
At least, were
weary copper
like sombra
errant void
No, the Omnic Crisis began because Omniums, the factories that made Omnics, became selfaware
cunning ledge
the factories are automated, yes
runic scroll
Okay not shitposting but do you guys think an omnium could be considered an omnic?
It’s a self aware, automated machine
It’s huge and makes omnics, yes, but it still kind of fits some criteria
errant void
Hmm... I guess you could consider it an omnic at this point, if it is self aware
cunning ledge
an omnic is a robot built by an omnium
a factory probably can't build a factory
so no
runic scroll
I really wish blizz was more specific with their criteria of an omnic
cunning ledge
the best definition we have is "a robot built by an omnium"
iron plume
a factory probably can't build a factory
elon musk get on this shit
runic scroll
I miss the Blizz loremaking back in the Brood War days
weary copper
Now blizz lore is HARD LIGHT
runic scroll
DVA ISNT A PRO IN STARCRAFT BECAUSE THATS IMPORTANT
Not that much else could be done with the time required to write that tweet, but still
What was the point of denying that lol
She could still be very high skilled in other, more meka-relevant games while also being a pro at SC
cunning ledge
to quote star wars episode 2: "machines making machines, how perverse"
runic scroll
Gamsu was a LoL pro
Is now OW pro
So suppose somebody builds a self-aware machine out of scratch and is functionally and aesthetically identical to omnics
It’s still not an omnic because it’s not made by an omnium, right?
cunning ledge
it wouldn't be, no
runic scroll
What if an omnium produced all parts required for an omnium, then produced means for those parts to be assembled into a functioning omnium?
Or a smaller “core” of an omnium that would build itself up to a full sized one once it’s where it needs to be?
errant void
With the defintion we've been given, technically it would have to be created by an Omnium to be considered an Omnic
runic scroll
What if an omnium built a smaller, mobile omnium?
Is that an omnic then?
Assuming every omnium is a self-aware and automated machine
dire timber
@iron plume I have this wacky theory that Elon was the founder of Talon
he turned to crime when people didn't appreciate him enough
errant void
No, but then it would be an Omnium by definition
iron plume
thonk
runic scroll
Are being an omnic and an omnium mutually exclusive though?
frosty shell
I think that the Omnic factory in the East China Sea was built by omnics from another omnium, but I have little evidence to support that
runic scroll
A regular omnic couldn’t be an omnium, but an omnium (built by another omnium) could be an omnic if the definition of an omnic is 1. Self aware 2. Automated machine 3. Built by an omnium
dire timber
they did said something about that omnium during the stream, while talking about the Busan map
but I couldn't find it after the fact
knotty iris
owo
dire timber
I can link you to the video, if you want to go hunting for that line
cunning ledge
I still like the theory that the big ole Busan attacks Omnic is actually the Omnium itself
having constructed a giant mecha out of itself
slightly less likely as of Shooting Star though
proud sphinx
am i slow, what is an omnium
peak escarp
a place where omnics are made
proud sphinx
ohhhh
dusty spindle
hello
valid shell
@dusty spindle Yo.
rugged wedge
Hello! I have a question:
Why all members of Talon have skin and Reaper no? Reaper is a Talon member?
Thanks
rugged wedge
(Talon skin)
trim elbow
rugged wedge
Ok thanks
civic dome
Overwatch lore is a train wreck
Like, why are tracer and widowmaker on the same team fighting winston
And why are they escorting a rich dudes car while fighting each other
Oh im sorry its not canon
NOTHING FROM THE GAME ITSELF IS CANON
reeeeeeeee
vernal trellis
Why are there trolls ruining this chat
iron plume
because it's a slower channel so their shitposts will stay visible for longer
just ignore them
regal coyote
that said i have to say the hollywood map lore is strange indeed
at least with blizzyland we know they are mking the map for fun first obviously
hasty surge
I look at hollywood as a semi fun map
peak escarp
Why is the game not being canon such a big deal to people?
if the gameplay was canon the lore would be a mess
if the gameplay was lore compliant, matches would be so restrictive it wouldn't be fun
peak escarp
It's honestly a non-issue
peak escarp
It's just to keep the game moving
If it was realistic you wouldn't be going out into the moon's surface at all
cunning ledge
The airlocks aren’t even airlocks
Just doors
There’s no middle space for (de)pressurisation
dire timber
there is, actually
airlocks have two sets of doors
it's just that it's like @tepid abyss said
they can be opened simultaneously
they shouldn't be
cunning ledge
it's not an airlock if it just leads directly from the surface of the moon to the inside of the base
steel current
Maybe the humans died because of this and the monkey revolution is just an excuse the engineer that built the doors gave to their boss
dire timber
@cunning ledge no, I mean
there are two sets of doors
so yes, it's an airlock
it just doesn't function like one in gameplay
cunning ledge
Oh, you mean that there are two sets of doors and each of those has two doors?
I could have sworn that there isn’t enough space to stand in the gap
But I can’t really remember so I’ll believe you
errant void
It's not like they could accurately represent an airlock lol
regal coyote
but srsly though if they do a real airlock it would not be playable
that and half the cast die in space, oh and the whole low grav thing, oh ant ... etc GAMEPLAY > ACCURACY in maps
errant void
Eggsactly, real world accuracy isn't great for gameplay haha
tawny patio
cunning ledge
There’s a good few robots on the cast
cedar moon
What if tracer stopped her own timeline
peak escarp
How?
errant void
Zenyatta, Orisa, Bastion. Not many, but a handful would survive
@cedar moon Yeah, not sure I understand what you mean...
dusty spindle
do u guys think that jeff kaplan is going to fire michael chu lol
michael chu: gency is cool
jeff: pharmercy is my favorite ship name
uh oh
cedar moon
Hanzo gets nu luv
peak escarp
Michael Chu is the one who writes the lore, so it doesn't matter what Jeff likes
cedar moon
I think it was a joke
valid shell
It wasn't very funny.
limpid agate
@dusty spindle Shitposting will result in a loss of access.
dusty spindle
how is it shitposting tho
limpid agate
It's a post that contributes nothing of value to the discussion
So its shit. And therefore a shitpost.
peak escarp
It gave us a lot of worldbuilding for a part of the lore that hadn't been developed yet, and showed more depth to DVa's character than had been seen previously
limpid agate
The best part was the stills and detail. The story/dialogue half left much to be desired.
tepid abyss
I liked that it gave her a bit more depth, I just wish it wasn't so cliche. But I guess there's not much background you can show in 5 mins
errant void
It was a beautiful short. Even if you don't D.va, you have to agree on that
And it expanded quite a bit on the effect of Hana after everything she has been through
vapid orchid
she was kinda a mary sue in the short but
cedar moon
I mean
There were 5
And one only died too the solo ult
So the robots are Mary Sues
peak escarp
people like to throw the term "mary sue" around a lot
I don't think it means what you think it means
errant void
I don't even know what it means :)
cedar moon
It’s like brig on no cooldowns
peak escarp
a Mary Sue is a character who is usually female, perfect in every way, loved by everyone, and has no flaws
vapid orchid
either way whether I do or don't know what it means the short left much to be desired
vapid orchid
all the shorts are v good but out of all of them shooting star was the worst for me
that's true
errant void
Oooh, okay, that makes sense, thank you
peak escarp
it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't terrible
vapid orchid
I know I'm just saying in my OPINION it wasn't the greatest short
peak escarp
I'd rank Shooting Star as the lowest short
vapid orchid
mhm
peak escarp
but still a solid 7/10
olive karma
Not Nationality I mean like Asian, white, black
peak escarp
I said ethnically Korean
cedar moon
I think Asian then
peak escarp
so she's Asian
olive karma
You can be a white Korean.
peak escarp
if your nationality is Korean, yes
but I specified ethnicity
which is another word for race
olive karma
Because she looks white, but could be asian
peak escarp
we're told she's asian
olive karma
Okay thx
vapid orchid
why do you wanna know her ethnicity so bad
limpid agate
She looks Korean, she speaks Korean, her name is Korean, her home is Korea, her nationality is Korean.
It's not a question what she is
Shes Korean
worthy rose
Smnan
valid shell
@worthy rose ?
worthy rose
Hello
misty eagle
vapid orchid
junkrat should get a short bc junkertown didnt give him justice
worthy rose
They need to add another omnic
peak escarp
I'd like to see another multi-hero short
Solo shorts are nice and all, but multi-hero stories progress the plot
valid shell
@vapid orchid Who's Maximilian?
valid shell
As though that isn't my modus operandi.
peak escarp
And it's obnoxious every time
valid shell
Good.
native kayak
@valid shell He’s this omnic dude who owns a casino and is a member of Talon
vapid orchid
Damn, gonna be an asshole about it? Nobody thinks it's funny but you. Everyone knows I meant Maximilien.
dense maple
@valid shell https://overwatch.gamepedia.com/Maximilien
since he apparently doesnt know about him
vapid orchid
@i like mercy for her story He was just being sarcastic at my bad spelling.
oop that @ didn't work but--
dense maple
i know, but if someones going to play dumb ill treat them like theyre dumb
vapid orchid
ah, smart move
valid shell
c:
vapid orchid
not giving them what they want
valid shell
But I got what I want.
dense maple
well, if it continues sloth or jewvia can always smite them but it probably wont get to that
dense maple
since its not relevant to lore discussion, so end topic here lol
valid shell
There you go.
vapid orchid
anyway, I'm almost positive that the next hero'll be a healer, as we just got a tank in the form of Hammond and we already have a lot of DPS on the roster, buut we also haven't gotten a talon tank yet and that'd be neat to see
dense maple
did u know theres a part of mercys lore that speculates that the medical technology she added to her own body potentially slowed or halted her aging process
meaning she may be immortal age-wise
valid shell
Where is this?
Because if you're referring to Mei saying Mercy hasn't aged a day, that's likely just a formality.
Between friends.
And if you mean she doesn't look 37, welcome to women in video games.
dense maple
no, in her actual lore
valid shell
Source?
vapid orchid
I heard about that, but I was thinking it was a theory or something.
dense maple
[1] She is one of the most gifted doctors in the world when it comes to medical technology, and has applied such technology to her own body;[2] effects have possibly included slowing/halting her ageing process.
vapid orchid
Theory or not, it can still be plausible in the lore.
dense maple
valid shell
The source for that comes from the exact quote I mentioned; Mei saying she hasn't aged a day.
vapid orchid
Wiki can be edited by anyone too.
valid shell
Yup.
Unless it's confirmed in canonical material, fan conjecture through vague voicelines aren't "actual lore".
valid shell
See: Moira.
dense maple
i mean ana took her medical technology and modified it similarly to moira but via a gun
vapid orchid
On another note, it'd also be neat to see Lynx, from the Zarya comic, as a new hero. I'm just wanting another omnic hero, I guess.
valid shell
As they are now, they'd be a poor-man's Sombra, since they got bodied by her in hacking, but the good things about Omnics is that there are plenty of ways to make them mechanically unique.
dense maple
i looked up lynx and the first thing i see kinda disappoints me
"Lynx is confirmed to be gender neutral, preferring they/them pronouns, as stated by Michael Chu."
why is this necessary for his lore as a robot
feels like pandering attempts
vapid orchid
that's true
valid shell
It's actually pretty interesting for a robot.
dense maple
it both makes sense but isnt necessary at the same time, due to it being a robot
valid shell
That they're not obligated to pick a gender and can just stay neutral.
dense maple
rather than gender neutral its more that they have no gender at all due to not being organically reproductive
or even imitating reproduction in any way
valid shell
If you're talking about what's "necessary", then Zenyatta and Orisa should also both be they, or it.
The interesting thing is that they picked their respective genders, while Lynx decided not to.
It's a valid subject to tackle when discussing AI and sapience.
dense maple
i always wonder, couldnt zenyatta change his voice to sound feminine if he wants to
valid shell
I'm sure he could.
dense maple
and i do wonder if realistic AI would ever eventually care to make a decision on their gender
valid shell
Actually, backing up: Efi likely assigned Orisa the female gender.
dense maple
after all, AI without limits that can pass the turing test are legally considered a living species once they pass it
meaning their intelligence is comparable
and true
valid shell
Probably for some pseudo-big sister role. Or cool aunt.
dense maple
theres also human influence, designing some omnics in a feminine or masculine fashion
i think orisa's voice is like that due to her being a public security omnic, so she has to have a calming voice to reduce panic
thats just my assumption though
vapid orchid
valid assumption
valid shell
You're probably right.
Most AI are usually female. See, Mass Effect, Subnautica, Elite: Dangerous, etc.
vapid orchid
Efi likely designed her to be female and such as females are typically seen as more soothing types
dense maple
i like zenyatta a lot because it delves into the topic of whether an AI could believe in religion, and ironically the religion he believes in makes sense for a robot
valid shell
With the release of Shooting Star, he's currently the most starved for lore.
dense maple
his abilities are strange though, almost as if he was designed for that religion
valid shell
At least Lucio exists on posters in the Overwatch world.
vapid orchid
There's also interactions about Lucio and Vishkar.
dense maple
maybe he was an omnic used as a buddhist monk placement, since their goal is to achieve nirvana and technically only a robot could really do that
valid shell
Zenyatta could just be a figment of Genji's imagination, for how much he's shown up.
twilit geode
Well he's an omnic and he can change his body at any time
cedar moon
Can’t we make an ai believe religion
twilit geode
So if he was a combat robot he could change into another body as long as his head was intact. Which is why modatta died
vapid orchid
It'd be neat to see a short with Lucio stealing Vishkar tech for the weapons he uses in-game, Sym confronts him, they have a rooftop fight/chase scene.
twilit geode
Lucio would win the chase, although sum could teleport I guess
valid shell
With sapience comes existential dread, and with that comes the need to believe in a higher power.
dense maple
yes and no i think @cedar moon , we could easily program one to say it does or in a different case, being an AI, the actuality is that it is solely mimicking it
valid shell
So eventually, sapient AI would likely find religion, although it would be indistinguishable to our own.
So likely not robot Buddhism.
twilit geode
Well Lucio is the fastest dude in the game after hamster
dense maple
thats the issue with AI morality, if there is an AI that is smart enough to learn, act, and have opinions just like a human, it is still just programming and mimicking, sort of like its putting an illusion on itself
twilit geode
So I think he should win
valid shell
In-game capabilities aren't representative of lore.
twilit geode
Yeah ai would be an interesting religion
valid shell
Remember: Reaper unloaded 8 shots into Winston on two occasions.
twilit geode
Yeah but how could sym outrun Lucio who could wallride, outside of gameplay Lucio has skates so he could run faster either way
valid shell
I doubt it.
vapid orchid
Shooting Star basically shows how D.va uses her self-destruct, but that doesn't make it a regular thing for her, if you know what I'm trying to say?
valid shell
Yup.
cedar moon
Turrets could show him down?
twilit geode
Yeah shooting star was kinda u derwhelming for lore enthusiasts
valid shell
It confirms self-destruct is within her capabilities, but it's a lot more unconventional than being part of her standard rotation like it is now.
dense maple
i always wonder, they constantly hint at something between mercy and reaper, and the earlier speculation i mentioned that mercy could plausibly be immortal aging-wise (not wound-wise), and then sometimes when reaper dies and respawns, he says a voiceline something like "this... is my curse" and i wonder if its hinting at something from the lore? maybe mercy made him immortal by accident or moira, idk
twilit geode
Turrets zapping him irl would kill him lol its a lazer
valid shell
@dense maple No.
cedar moon
It would still slow him down :zara
vapid orchid
In Moira's introduction short, she was the one who saved Reaper, I'm pretty sure.
valid shell
Mercy had nothing to do with Reyes becoming Reaper, except that Moira utilized her research.
Moira's entirely responsible.
twilit geode
It would fucking kill him yeah of course he would slow down
dense maple
well i said "or moira"
since it didnt seem to be mercy's morals to do something like that
dense maple
so obviously moira is the most likely one
valid shell
This frame killed that entire crackpot theory.
vapid orchid
Before Moira was released, many people speculated that Mercy saved Reyes but it's now confirmed that's not the case.
cedar moon
@twilit geode we have to make sacrifices for our research 😉
dense maple
? i was saying mercy could be swapped out with moira
it doesnt debunk the entire thing
just swap out wherever i said "mercy" with "moira"
vapid orchid
On a side-note, it'd be nice to get a skin of Moira in the suit she's wearing in that picture.
twilit geode
Moira made him, mercy was pissed that ana made her gun with mercy's nanotech, I don't think she would make a living weapon out of her friend
valid shell
It's pretty explicitly Moira's doing. A lot of her character was in response to the whole "DAE EVIL MERCY??? ?" theory that's been around since release.
cedar moon
I need moira with lab suit
vapid orchid
Moira with lab coat would be nice.
twilit geode
Moira with lab suit would wotk
dense maple
at first i was saying mercy but then i realized it would obviously be moira but i didnt wanna go back and rewrite everything so i just added "or moira"
vapid orchid
The flowy clothes she has usually could apply to her lab coat, hence the silhouette not drastically changing and still being noticable as being Moira.
valid shell
Well, it certainly seemed like you were sold on the "constantly hint at something between mercy and reaper" theory, so maybe you should have backspaced a bit.
twilit geode
Btw sym would use teleportwr to chase Lucio around on the top of building and attempt to use her gear but Lucio would barely outrun her
valid shell
@vapid orchid Lab coat Moira could totally work with her silhouette.
vapid orchid
That's what I would think, @twilit geode
twilit geode
Yeah sometimes shorts can be predictable
cedar moon
Or a BoOp
vapid orchid
I'm surprised they haven't thought of that skin yet, maybe for next Uprising event?
dense maple
@valid shell what i meant is that mercy will sometimes ask in the beginning of match how reaper became like that or what happened, something akin to that, so she possibly wanted to know if moira had used her technology again for things she didnt want
twilit geode
They probably have but are saving, remember if they release all the cool skins at once thell run out of ideas quick
vapid orchid
I know she got a skin last event, though Reaper got a skin two halloweens in a row. One could hope.
dense maple
it seems as if he's made of the stuff that she drains people with (with her left click and damage-orb), seems to be the same material
which could possibly refer to why reaper has lifesteal
since her drain material gives it as well
twilit geode
Maybe good point
cedar moon
Dracula Halloween skin
vapid orchid
*last event as in I meant last Uprising event.
valid shell
Mercy and Moira are pretty clearly mechanically connected, looking at his condition, her fade ability, her lifedrain, the smokey aesthetic.
dense maple
it seems like moira used reaper as a test subject, and then applied the better revised version of the test to herself
since clearly reaper's form of it is a lot slower than hers
she seems to be made out of the same stuff now due to her fade ability and it being much faster
twilit geode
Maybe a mix of mercy's healing and reapers wraith
Which is why mercy hates her, she stole her shit
valid shell
We can see Moira's scientific method in her origin video.
First she experimented on a rabbit, then on herself, and then used Reyes.
dense maple
mercy is mega-pacifist, so she is definitely pissed if her medical technology is used for harm
cedar moon
So animal herself And human
dense maple
why did reyes turn out less successful than her in terms of their capabilities with her experiment?
if he is the final product
valid shell
Likely because he died.
dense maple
he's slower with it and cant use it as freely
vapid orchid
He may be slower at it in-game, but he seems to be pretty fast in the shorts, which are canon
valid shell
If you watch him in cinematics and the comics, he can seamlessly become smoke at will.
dense maple
it doesnt seem like he can, otherwise he'd just go wraith mode the entire time against tracer and winston
vapid orchid
not necessarily
twilit geode
He can't teleport like Moira is what he meant, Moira Tele is a mix of shadow walk and wraith
valid shell
The Cinematic Trailer is tenuously canon at this point.
dense maple
i think he can use it in big boosts, but he cant continuously use it in one go like moira can
vapid orchid
He can't do damage in wraith form, and he was trying to hurt Tracer and Winston.
dense maple
like he always needs to switch back after using it for a bit or after teleporting
dense maple
moira is capable of using the drain ability endlessly
twilit geode
Well gameplay and lore are completely different in my opinion
valid shell
Your opinion is abjectly correct.
dense maple
i think theyre linked at some points but not necessarily how they play out
some things are tweaked for gameplay
valid shell
The only canonical drain we've seen Moira do is in the opening for Retribution.
dense maple
but the events themself i think are meant to be lore-accurate, just not who was there and what their capabilities really were
like for example escorting the doomfist gauntlet, that couldve been an actual occurrence, just in lore there were different people in talon and in overwatch actually doing it along with different realistic capabilities
and the outcome of course
vapid orchid
Are you talking about ALL events or just Uprising?
Because Uprising (or should I say Archives, now) is lore-accurate
valid shell
@dense maple The standard map plots are not lore-accurate.
Nobody detonated an EMP in London.
And, obviously, the Doomfist never made it to the Numbani museum.
dense maple
@valid shell i think you didnt read where i said different people and different outcomes, along with the lore version of whats happening containing more realistic capabilities with those that were there
like ingame, it shows the event but you pick whoever you want
in lore, certain actual people from ow/ex-ow/talon were actually there, escorting or defending etc but with the right characters to fit the lore
peak escarp
Even considering that, some of the events shown on the maps did not happen
Like activating an EMP on King's Row
dense maple
maybe it just hasnt happened yet 👀
dense maple
wait i dont understand the interpretation of negative
as in, itd be disliked, or what i said was negative in a toxic way?
i mean i dont understand it in the way its used here
cloud escarp
no
valid shell
Or are you just making the same low-hanging joke everyone does when they see this channel exists?
peak escarp
@dense maple I mean as in, an EMP over an omnic settlement is essentially genocide
dense maple
ohhhhhhhhh
peak escarp
aka a very negative thing
dense maple
yeah, but itd give a reason to see talon as true villains
valid shell
I'd rather not see them as mustache-twisting cartoony villains.
They're better having understandable, but extreme goals and motivations.
dense maple
not that kind of villain, doing evil for no reason
thatd be a cheap villain
i mean if they had a reason to do it
for some sort of goal, itd show how extreme their dedication is to their goals
valid shell
Talon is trying to propagate Human and Omnic tensions, so why would they want to wipe out all Omnics in King's Row?
Be better to kill just one crucial Omnic to incite conflict.
Which they did.
dense maple
i think it depends a lot on how they do it
since its possible that a lot of omnics/humans would have no idea who actually committed the crime, then they could basically do it to spread terrorism propaganda so that media belief is that it was a human terrorist attack on omnics, causing distrust between them
valid shell
But they already accomplished that by assassinating Mondatta.
dense maple
if they did know who did it, then why would talon even be trying to incite conflict? at that point, omnics and humans would already know about them and what theyre doing so clearly theyre doing it discretely to make people believe that it is normal human terrorism
valid shell
...Actually, thinking back, if they had pinned Mondatta's death on Tracer, who was unconscious at the scene of the crime (with Widowmaker's sniper rifle nearby), that would further Talon's goals even more.
dense maple
killing mondatta is their attempt at getting rid of leaders that are positively influencing the relationship between humans and omnics, while killing the omnics themselves would be a statement of terrorism in a way, letting them know that the average omnic/person is at danger from this terrorism as well
and thats where the larger distrust seeps in
because now every omnic/person thinks they could be at risk when near humans
or other omnics, if talon does the reverse to humans at another point in time to cause mutual distrust
native kayak
I bet the Eye sombra discovered has to do with it
nova elbow
my theory is that the conspiracy is run by omnic extremists
they killed mondatta because they don't want to encourage positive human-omnic relations, because their ultimate goal is to overthrow humanity through subtler means than war
hasty surge
When is Halloween? Before or after bilzzcon?
errant void
After
worthy rose
Didn't widow kill mondatta and tracer tried to stop her but didn't
errant void
Widow killed Mondatta in her short, yes
regal coyote
actually more interesting thing is WHO ordered mondatta killed
cause even within telon there are/were different fractions
after doomfist's return though, the non-fist fraction grew wings
but before that there are different ideas
mondetta's nutrialization surely helps ensure a tension between omnic and humans
but killing volks is just counter productive.
civic dome
Just wondering, why is sombra opposed to katya volskaya using tech given to her by omnics
subtle dawn
she isn't personally
hasty surge
Alrights thanks dray
subtle dawn
she is saying russia would not take it lightly
russia is still at war with the omnics
subtle dawn
so katya volskaya secretly getting her tech from the enemy
to continue a war against the enemy
would paint a pretty bad picture
and turn russia against her
civic dome
So she was just taloning
subtle dawn
no, sombra's business was personal
not on behalf of talon
hence why she removes her ear-piece and doesn't assassinate volskaya like intended
regal coyote
ok, sombra want Katya to be in her pocket
regal coyote
instead of forging some personal alliance Katya make the call to neutralize sombra with Zarya
OBVIOUSLY sombra would want to fuck with Catya, if only to make her suffer a bit to tell her who the boss is
civic dome
That makes sense
regal coyote
remmber sombra was blackmailing Catya rather than capping her ass with her peashooter
civic dome
But why would sombra want katya in her pocket anyway
regal coyote
let me see, a powerful CEO with some of the best millitary production and huge russian infulence.
Why would anyone NOT want Catya to be in her pocket?
regal coyote
remember sombra dont need money (trust me she can easily get those anytime)
dire timber
what did I miss?
regal coyote
she wants the power, and the way to hunt the eye, whatever it is
civic dome
Me bitching about the sombra short
dire timber
what's wrong with the Somba short?
I mean, Sombra's attempts at blackmailing Katya and double-crossing Talon were both a total failure, but still
dire timber
yeah, it is
Sombra wants some favors from Katya, without even saying anything about what such favors would entail
civic dome
Excactly
cedar moon
“I will break you”
hasty surge
Sombra could have worked with vialli to set the council up into agreeing Volskaya's assassination. It may seem vialli was behind it but sombra possibly had a hand in it. Quote she told Volskaya she "went through alot just get to you"
Maybe helping vialli blackmail the rest of the council or maybe even blackmailing viali. But since he was an arms dealer he would probably be more then willing
cedar moon
Maybe she studied the place via stealth and knew the place
dire timber
I think Blizzard didn't really think these two things through:
- why Talon wanted to kill Volskaya
- what Sombra wanted from Volskaya
they just wanted to introduce Sombra
they rolled with "oh, look, she's outsmarting everyone!!"
civic dome
I think "went through alot to get to you" just means infiltrating the volskaya campus
dire timber
and then realized that stuff like that is horrible writing
civic dome
On a separate topic, I liked the mei short the best
dire timber
I like Shooting Star tbqh
civic dome
It was very well written
dire timber
I don't get all the whining about it
civic dome
I have to go
dire timber
@hasty surge I think it could be likely that Sombra tried to get Talon to hit Volskaya Industries in some way
hasty surge
Maybe if they didn't thought it through, I would hope chu would pick it up and develop it though
dire timber
maybe she didn't want it to be an assassination mission, but she wanted it to be a mission in which Volskaya were present
it's just that assassination is what Vialli and the council rolled with
so Sombra had to improvise
hasty surge
Hmm possible but there wasn't any other reason to get into the same room as Volskaya
Unless it involves distracting and distracting volskaya specifically
But err
Nahh
cedar moon
I hate how ppl say “Dva won” or “there was no challenge”
dire timber
either way, I think it's likely that Sombra tried to arrange the mission to begin with
but I doubt direct coertion played any part in it
hasty surge
I agree Sombra was behind it but Vialli was the front
hasty surge
She has inbuild nano tech or smth
cedar moon
Whom
cedar moon
Same
hasty surge
There was no prove he was
regal coyote
no sombra cannot hack people
but she can hack mny devices and omnics
so no she cannot hack someone's meaty brain
but she can hack your robot arm
broken raptor
She “hacks” people by tricking them kinda like in her short when she tricked Reaper in thinking the target “got away”
gusty fjord
Nah
In the followup comic
Reaper found out
Talon knows that Sombra has ulterior motives
broken raptor
Ohhhh I did not know that, thanks for correcting me ^w^
gusty fjord
😄
Yeah, it just so happens that they're "okay" with it because what Sombra did ultimately still helps them so they turn a blind eye to it
tepid abyss
So they use eachother
dire timber
Sombra is not really as clever as she thinks
she left behind a trail for Zarya to follow, and Reaper kept track of her activities
hasty surge
Assuming my theory holds true, it means reaper hadn't found about the vialli collab setup for Volskaya
dire timber
collab?
hasty surge
The Vialli set up
hasty surge
I was saying that it's possible that sombra set vialli up so she could get to Volskaya
limpid agate
What
If Sombra wanted a meeting with Volskaya, she could have done that herself
Only reason she did it during the short was because if the assassination attempt
hasty surge
I think so because of what she said in infiltration
like you said then she could have done the meeting with Volskaya anytime she wants and it doesn't have to be during the assassination
limpid agate
But why manipulate Vialli into doing an assassination only to botch it, rather than just request he helps her get council.
hasty surge
I would say Volskaya's security is probably pretty tight, why need 3 person to do the job? Just send Sombra
limpid agate
It was pretty much just her doing everything. Reaper was a distraction at best.
Widow did nothing at all
dire timber
I don't think Sombra directly interacted with Vialli to arrange for this mission
but I think she did try to manipulate the circumstances to make Talon attempt such
hasty surge
That's true but we didn't seem anything before and after, it does make the council seem really dumb to send 3 agents to do one agent's job.
Reaper probably has a leash on Sombra.
Well according to reaper it was Vialli's idea and some were frustrated at how interactable she is
peak escarp
They had probably tried to work out a deal with her but she refused to cooperate
so they went with plan B, which was assassination
hasty surge
Well they could have flash out her blackmail photos for that deal, unless sombra was the one person that has it
hasty surge
Yeah she don't agree to the deal, why kill her when you can blackmail her into agreeing
Much easier then killing her
Well this is your theory
And can someone tell me why is he confirmed Vialli?
https://overwatch.gamepedia.com/Vialli
hasty surge
hmm no one asked chu?
peak escarp
you could try but I doubt you'd get an answer
limpid agate
And can someone tell me why is he confirmed Vialli?
What do you mean?
Aside from Context, Chu confirmed it
hasty surge
ok now that's different
valid shell
We already get so little lore, let's not "hmm" and doubt the stuff we actually do know.
Also our avatars make the three of us look like huge fucking losers.
peak escarp
regal coyote
Compare to antonio he looks so... mook-ish
peak escarp
took like 10 seconds of google to find that
iron plume
i mean
so was antonio
cunning ledge
Antonio had a 3D model and voice actor at least
regal coyote
Antonio looks his part
I mean he looks like a mini-boss at least
not top tier villian bust still a named one
Vialli looks like one of the random victims from an accident caused by a fight, not anything close to a leader, and not distinct.
A COBRA mook soldier have an outfit more distinct and memorable than him
limpid agate
The difference is
Vialli is a throwaway character in a comic
Antonio is a throwaway character for a short
(Or well, minishort)
Shorts generally get more detailed throwaway characters. Look at the Los Muertos.
regal coyote
yes.
but i also suspect vialli is deliberate made to be more mundane to fit the nothing that he is not someone important/memorable/etc as doomfist would have commented on.
While antonio may be a returning character for past events.
So Antonio is an important past character, where Vialli is not, but basically a stand in when there is a power vacuum, nothing more
autumn lynx
Not sure about this, but doesn't genji like mercy or something like that?
hasty surge
Not proven just a Christmas card
autumn lynx
So it's still kinda a theory?
timid eagle
@autumn lynx Currently, I think they are starting to blossom a romantic relationship. She was the one who rescued him and given him his prosthetic limbs, and he owes his second chance in life to Mercy.
peak escarp
At this point the most we can say is that they have a relationship of an unknown nature
twilit geode
Yep doc
peak escarp
I personally think it's a romantic relationship, but there isn't sufficient evidence to confirm or deny that
twilit geode
It's a ship so blizzard will probably listen to fans on this
peak escarp
I hope not
twilit geode
It fits in lore so blizzard should listen
peak escarp
I don't want Blizzard to let the fans write the lore
Blizzard should write the story they want
twilit geode
But fans can write better lore than blizzard. It's been 2 years why don't we have anything after recall
peak escarp
We have almost a year's worth of timeline past recall
twilit geode
Like what?
peak escarp
Old Soldiers, Infiltration, Masquerade, Searching
And that's just the plot stuff
You've also got Mei and Reinhardt's return to Overwatch, Torbjorn taking in Bastion, Brigitte taking up arms, Orisa's creation
twilit geode
Nothing after recall it's just everyone gearing up and getting ready all of that just happens at the same time as recall or is unrelated
Like they have so much they just gotta connect it
twilit geode
But no reference to recall is mentioned in those, nothing about Winston just talon and zarya
peak escarp
You see Reaper taking the names of Overwatch agents from Athena in Recall
In Masquerade he tells Doomfist about it
After Masquerade, Doomfist goes to Numbani to get his gauntlet, destroying the OR15s at the airport
Leading to the creation of Orisa, who can be seen in the background of Searching
There is more lore than people realize - it just isn't spelled out nicely
You have to look for it
peak escarp
and we know when Masquerade happens, because part of it is set during Carnivale in Venice, which happens at the same time every year
regal coyote
On Genji/Mercy, yes there is a relationship.
At the least they are friendly and contact each other.
There is also the "hidden" chocolate voiceline.
regal coyote
But unlikely to pt them in a romantic relationship yet, despite what chu probably really wants.
it is like an asian pop-star.
too many fan fantasies on both genji and mercy.
broken raptor
Maybe Mercy and Genji are keeping their crushes or “relationship” a secret cause Genji is Mercy’s #1 pt. (Patient)
regal coyote
D66 yes, hence the "" on hidden :3
it is better to keep it ambiuous so as not to break all those fans and keep those fanfics rolling
broken raptor
True
hasty surge
So we believe chu wants it to be a lore relationship?
hasty surge
I meant chu wants it to be an actual love relationship?
brisk harbor
native kayak
I love Pharmercy but I definitely admit that Blizzard is pushing Gency towards being canonically romantic
And I’m ok with that ofc it does make sense
She rescued him and he at least owes her a heartfelt letter once a year lmao
regal coyote
Kinda what Chu was doing, but it is not as popular as one might think
yeah, you fall in love with soemone who rescue you and all is fien, right? look at mario and peach
oh wait, peachs till goes out running away from mario to bowser for fun times.
maybe peach just love to be rescued. Maybe thats why Genji need healing
potent vapor
Pharmercy is really reaching for it, though I do understand why some people in the community made it a thing. Pharah is a popular pocket for Mercy players.
Maybe they'll make Emily a playable hero since her backstory is not really known yet lol
potent vapor
We know Baguette was a mechanic in Reinhardt's comic and short, but personally I didn't expect her to become a knight's squire months later.
Anything can happen, I guess.
regal coyote
well the honor and glory shot gives a hint
i mean massive design detailing of a side character would mean she is going to play a much bigger part
dire timber
@potent vapor the thing is, Briggite is following Rein's example and all
while I'm not sure how exactly Emily could take after Tracer
esp. since, you know, Tracer wasn't part of some order of Crusaders at any point
nova elbow
Brig was Rein's squire the whole time I'm pretty sure, she just wasn't in combat
we don't even actually know why or where she started fighting… the seemed to be careful not to say she'd joined Neoverwatch
worthy rose
brig was sparring with rein
hasty surge
She was more like his mechanic
regal coyote
Well for brig at least we know he is 1) close to overwatch and agents from birth 2) have close frequent contact with TWO important overwatch agent 3) have been doing active travelling with heroic figures.
And yes as a squire you do receive fighting training.
I do not think every namd person and their dog should be playable. No I do not see Emily as playable.
Emily can either be a 1) reporter type 2) author or similar people in the publishing industry 3) might be architect / civil engineering related
either way not too much of the action types
And this is overwatch, sure it might as well be familywatch, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont make this loverswatch
those would be the job of home dwelling slashfic fans
hasty surge
btw we don't have any hammond interactions yet?