everyone has the same potential is a very different statement
#will customization lead to saminess?
pine glacier
everyone is not the same. if you build one faction and i build another it is extremely unlikely that they will be the same.
however, it's possible that they may both use elf models
i don't see the issue here
i suppose the answer to why i'm married to it is egalitarianism is cool and i do not find the counterarguments for why that would not be the case here compelling
raven pebble
not everyone can have the same potential when we are talking about different species
it's like saying dogs and cats have the same potential as humans
no, they don't ;d
even if they talked and were as smart as humans, their physiology would not allow them to do certain things like humans
pine glacier
does it really matter tho
pine glacier
they have fingers to manipulate tools with
why is Race Essentialism suddenly at the forefront of everyone's mind as a vital issue that must be rectified
why care about racial divisions
fossil berry
Because meaningful choices make the game more interesting.
raven pebble
because it provides different gameplay
pine glacier
it's cool that anyone can invent any fantasy they want and don't have to adhere to standard tropes
pine glacier
because it provides different gameplay
i assure you the 3dmodels used are not vital to the gameplay you are seeking
pine glacier
but why not have it
because the freedom to choose my visuals for my faction gives me dopamine if i want an atypical faction, and the gameplay change is 100% cosmetic/nonsubstantive
it is the same reason i can change my dwarf's hat in hit video game deep rock galactic
arguments that not wearing a helmet should impart stat penalties to punish people for being invested in how they look are: asinine
raven pebble
that is a very slippery slope
pine glacier
actually it is a strawman
but i hope my position and reasoning is clear, as well as what the advantages of being able to change form without gameplay impact are
raven pebble
but the other side is valid as well
why not have gameplay alterations just because you want to look a certain way?
pine glacier
gameplay alterations and cosmetic forms are not mutually exclusive. see:
this si my fundamental disagreement with the premise of all of these opposing positions
raven pebble
theoretically no, but practically they can be made to be
pine glacier
forms being tied to gameplay is not necessary for any of the things you want unless you have a very specific attachment to the concept of an "orc"
raven pebble
it's not so much a specific concept, but some concept that the lore provides for me
pine glacier
ah, so the issue is that you want pre-written lore then? it's not about the gameplay?
pine glacier
or do you want to be handheld on having gameplay that fits lore, when you would be perfectly capable of constructing that yourself if desired?
raven pebble
why do I want to construct my own
it's like someone giving me a blank book and saying "write your own if you want"
pine glacier
sounds like a preset leader is the leader for you!
i wonder if aow4 will have those
quite the mystery
raven pebble
leaders are a total non sequitur ;d
pine glacier
you want gameplay that matches the form. precreated leaders are "the book being written for you" here,
raven pebble
no, they aren't ;d
pine glacier
you don't need to construct your own, as (presumably) the game devs have already made it for you
you are taking umbrage with the idea that the book has boxes for people to write in their own lore if they want
livid hawk
-
I see it like this: an orc warrior and a halfling warrior can both be equally deadly, only they will prefer different ways of fighting or different weapons. In the game here there is just the problem that this circumstance can be represented in a limited way by the engine and the gameplay. And then we as players have to make concessions.
-
For now we have only seen the premiere stream, there are still a little over 3 months until the release, the dev diaries are still coming and hopefully more streams will show us more of the game.
-
We should be glad that there is another part at all, the developers have invested a lot of time and heart and soul here, and games like AoW are unfortunately not so many out there in the quality anymore. We can still give them constructive feedback for what we liked and what we didn't like, even if we had the opportunity to play it extensively.
harsh cape
2: doesn't really apply because there has been a lot of direct communication and quotes on the paradox forums from Triumph staff that there definately won't be form exclusive recruit lists etc
raven pebble
you are taking umbrage with the idea that the book has boxes for people to write...
I see it as an excuse to not have lore
pine glacier
was it truly a problem that these two units were exactly the same
pine glacier
I see it as an excuse to not have lore
do they not have lore?
is aow4 a loreless game?
raven pebble
they aren't exactly the same, halflings have lucky first of all ;d
pine glacier
or are you specifically married to the idea of racial lore
raven pebble
is aow4 a loreless game?
kind of?
pine glacier
bummer. i wonder if that's a direct result of the decision to have forms be cosmetic or not
pine glacier
they aren't *exactly* the same, halflings have lucky first of all ;d
but they deal the same damage
if it were the humans who hadlucky would this suddenly make no sense?
what if i could put lucky on the humans?
raven pebble
iirc, people did complain about it
harsh cape
eh AoW 3 unit description for Class units is often implied to be one race or another (lot of Lady Loki's stuff for warlord for exaample)
pine glacier
i know
pine glacier
iirc, people did complain about it
were you one of them
pine glacier
😐
raven pebble
but because the races, especially at launch, were extremely same-y
harsh cape
they didn't wait till the Golden realms + that complaining got things added to the Racial Class units beyond the inherent
pine glacier
but because the races, especially at launch, were extremely same-y
but was your reasoning specifically about the physical stature of halflings?
because that is a gameplay concern
raven pebble
halflings didn't exist then ;d
pine glacier
but as established, you could do the same thign with cultures and keep form cosmetics
so the gameplay differentiation being sought after is not reliant on forms having a gameplay impact
raven pebble
it's not, but it would be really swell if they did
upper axle
I don't really see why would forms NOT be purely cosmetic. What do we define as damage, even of a melee unit, is not only a case of warrior's strength. It's also gear. Materials the weapon is made of. It's also skill. The mastery over said weapon. I don't find it far-fetched that an elven swordsman, with proper training and weapon, can deal the same damage as an orc swordsman.
pine glacier
it's not, but it would be really swell if they did
i think it's swell that i can choose to align these concepts in whatever way i personally enjoy most
raven pebble
difference is damage is a cheap way to differentiate races, I want some extreme differences
raven pebble
i think it's swell that i can choose to align these concepts in whatever way i p...
that's why this argument is a bust, it can go both ways ;d
livid hawk
With the creation of our starting faction, we are building a basic framework that is far from finished. We still have to add the developments and the like that were added in the game. Then the differences will come all by themselves. You make everything dependent on this first step in the creation? Seriously, I wonder what kind of stream some people must have watched here, or whether they stopped in the middle.
raven pebble
and since forms don't have a gameplay effect, why have forms at all
fossil berry
I don't really see why would forms NOT be purely cosmetic. What do we define as ...
Thing is that training and industrial quality are cultural while race is... well, racial. Perhaps the orcs have a more warlordish culture and therefore better training an weaponry, on top of their existing higher strength.
The thing about meaningful choices is that you can compound advantages, which we can't do if all forms are essentially the same.
upper axle
Flavour
pine glacier
and since forms don't have a gameplay effect, why have forms at all
"it can go both ways, but also, why have have forms at all?"
lmao
as if i have not spent the entire conversation answering specifically this question
raven pebble
yes, because it can go both ways ;d
you want to look different
but you can also not look different
pine glacier
uh huh...
so why have forms? answer: because being able to control the cosmetics in the game is a Gameplay Feature much beloved in many forms across many games
do you honestly need this question answered?
raven pebble
but it's also a beloved Gameplay Feature to have races mean something
upper axle
Thing is that training and industrial quality are cultural while race is... well...
It could also be part of the trait system that afaik we have. The level of impact said traits have, I suppose, is another matter. But we can optimize those traits to indeed create a faction of elves who did have to adapt war and melee combat into their society for... Whatever reasons you deem appropriate .
pine glacier
but it's also a beloved Gameplay Feature to have races mean something
you have an answer to your question
you clearly understand what the advantages of Having Forms At All are
what more do you want
raven pebble
just wanting to look different is purely sentimental
pine glacier
just wanting to look different is purely sentimental
so is your psoition
raven pebble
which can easily be ignored
pine glacier
which can easily be ignored
do you ask questions like "why don't hats have an effect on gameplay? why bother having hats at all?" in games like deep rock galactic
raven pebble
hats aren't a physiological constant in a species ;d
pine glacier
so?
upper axle
Don't get me wrong. Part of why I loved Planetfall was how factions were designed, and, imo, was a peak of Triumph team's design abilities.
With that said, I appreciate that they are taking another direction. Granted, I might be biased because I like both well-designed factions, and ones made from scratch myself. It's a very Rpg-esque approach that I really appreciate
pine glacier
why allow players to make a cosmetic change? it is the same answer
raven pebble
and hats in RPGs do have an effect on gameplay ;d
pine glacier
but you reject in this context for purely superficial reasons
livid hawk
No, to stay with the orc example: Orcs could have evolved under different circumstances in a feudal system, or become a race of monks through spirituality, or a race of craftsmen and traders through industry. Who determines exactly what they should look like or how they should develop? That's right, we as players lay exactly these basic foundations with the construction kit, each as we like it.
pine glacier
and hats in RPGs *do* have an effect on gameplay ;d
ah, but in some games they do not. do you find that a failing of those games? do you ask these same questions in those games?
raven pebble
that is a false equivalency and you know it
pine glacier
or is the whole cosmetic thing pointless and people should be allowed to look however they want because it really doesn't matter
pine glacier
that is a false equivalency and you know it
point out the difference to me
they are both cosmetic items
raven pebble
hats aren't physiological constants in a species ;d
pine glacier
but you have a specific attachment to race that you do not have to hats
pine glacier
hats aren't physiological constants in a species ;d
this si that specific attachment, which is meaningless and superficial
raven pebble
why don't you ask the same question of Tolkien?
raven pebble
he will find it patently absurd that orcs can be the same as elves
raven pebble
they were elves
but they corrupted themselves and can no longer be like them
you know, lore
pine glacier
but also: i am not advocating for change
i am defending the game as is
there are a multitude of different and valid approaches
raven pebble
there are
pine glacier
this game has taken one that,as you said, is valid ("both sides are valid")
and yet
here we are
raven pebble
that's why we are having this conversation, yes
both sides are valid in a vacuum
but one of them is more valid when not in a vacuum ;d
crisp compass
Alright 1000+ messages in and this discussion seems to just be looping at this point.
To answer the op** Will Customization Lead to saminess?** Potentially, the only way for you to know for sure is to keep an eye on the Dev Diaries and Stream. We've done our best to make sure that you can create a wide variety of races/factions using the tools we provided.
**Why have Forms when you can swap the Traits? ** In AoW4 Player Creativity is one of the main Game Pillars. We aim to create a game that allows players to create any Fantasy Race they can come up with.
raven pebble
reader creativity is also one of my Writing Pillars, so here's a blank book, everyone ;d go wild
pine glacier
i wonder if an interactive medium is a different context for that kind of approach
i hate madlibs too though, it's ok
raven pebble
there are a lot of games that provide you with a way to creatively express yourself through gameplay that also have some dignity when it comes to their lore ¯_(ツ)_/¯
pine glacier
"this is a matter of dignity"
raven pebble
they tried to do much the same thing with AoW3, but then backpedaled with the racial governance
it kind of is
it's like saying "we can't make interesting lore, so make your own"
bold thicket
Honestly, being able to be one of the wizard kings that created and shaped a race of their own is very lore accurate and looks super fun.
crisp compass
The pre-existing lore of the Age of Wonders Series doesn't change just because we offer player creativity/full customisation
sour aspen
it's like saying "we can't make interesting lore, so make your own"
oh yes because the multiplane scale hasn't been a thing since game 1...
raven pebble
The pre-existing lore of the Age of Wonders Series doesn't change just because w...
it doesn't change the pre-existing one, but it will have massive consequences from now on
that you will have to ignore because it's unmanageable
bold thicket
it doesn't change the pre-existing one, but it will have massive consequences fr...
It was already a thing since AoW1, we just could never do it ourselves.
sour aspen
ok now you are being dramatic
raven pebble
It was already a thing since AoW1, we just could never do it ourselves.
what was a thing?
pine glacier
hyperbole is only cool when i do it
pine glacier
what was a thing?
wasn't the lore that the god yaka formed the tigrans or some such
the idea is this game is playing as yaka
bold thicket
Artica creating the frostlings, the split between the elves as some examples. Then AoW2 had yaka create cat people.
upper axle
But races did change over time in the original lore. And were created. look at Tigrans who were not a thing in AoW 1. Yaka's job. Same with Draconians, created by Tempest.
Azracs fell but we got Nomads later
Lizardmen were utterly annihilated by Nimue
raven pebble
the idea is this game is playing as yaka
if we did, we would have boundless capabilities, yet we are limited to the 10 races which already exist
upper axle
(I hope we can get them back)
pine glacier
damn i guess we have have to settle for some abstractions
raven pebble
then we aren't playing as Yaka in that sense ;d
pine glacier
😐
sonic trellis
if we are basically like Yaka if we pick Wizard Monarch, then who are we if we pick Champion?
pine glacier
yaka with a different origin story
upper axle
Julia?
bold thicket
if we did, we would have boundless capabilities, yet we are limited to the 10 ra...
Yeah, it'd be cool to have them invest tons of resources into being able to create your own race from scratch without using a template. Like a very advanced character customization thing.
That would, however, cost a ton of resources. It'd be cool, though.
pine glacier
"if we can't take it to this arbitrary extreme i have devised it's pointless though"
raven pebble
I have devised that it's not the same thing as playing this extremely powerful being in the lore, yes
because surprise, surprise, resources and time are limited
so don't write yourself into a corner
pine glacier
yeah when i play final fantasy i can control the fine movements of my individual sword twirls, gameplay abstractions and conveniences are forbidden
sonic trellis
yeah 2 and Shadow Magic
raven pebble
we didn't get to create any races
bold thicket
No, but it was in the lore, and they did it.
pine glacier
it's important that nothing be simplified or else we aren't actually doing the thing
and therefore it is pointless
raven pebble
if you give me an omnipotent being to play as
pine glacier
because lacrymas thinks so
raven pebble
but then it's not omnipotent
what are you even doing and why are you giving me this
pine glacier
yeah it sucks that in black and white i only get 3 choices for the creature i make
terrible game
raven pebble
the number of choices is arbitrary ;d
this yaka thing is just not a good argument and you'll convince no-one
pine glacier
i eagerly await the god game that finally delivers being truly omnipotent in a world with no abstractions
raven pebble
that would be really boring
pine glacier
wow no way
raven pebble
but you do you
bold thicket
The wizard kings aren't omnipotent. They're extremely powerful beings that forge the fate of worlds and the races therein, but they have their limits too even in the lore. We also got to play as them but not actually do their lore things, because it was a very old game where this kind of thing was practically unheard of.
Now that Triumph is actually letting us do what has been done in the lore since AoW1 it's suddenly a problem because they never had the resources to strive for such an ambitious project before?
raven pebble
literally not the same thing as creating a different race altogether
pine glacier
role playing is pointless if the role is not 100% fully realized lmao
raven pebble
when it comes to these extremes, yes?
pine glacier
for you, maybe
others may be able to accept that with an ambitious concept there are some mild compromises
raven pebble
if we go by the looks thing, the most apt question is why are you giving me these looks and not some other ones
pine glacier
i hope the human race can be accepting towards this video game
bold thicket
Also, you can houserule any kinds of limitations you want on forms/cultures/traits etc. they have and play like that.
pine glacier
if we go by the looks thing, the most apt question is why are you giving me thes...
who cares. the toys in my toybox are not infinite. most children can still find a way to have fun though
this is a really silly line of questioning the concept
raven pebble
it's not about being infinite
bold thicket
if we go by the looks thing, the most apt question is why are you giving me thes...
Because resources and time are finite. Why these? Because they're iconic to fantasy and the franchise in general (for the most part, we got some cool new options too it looks like)
raven pebble
it's about cosmetics and why they are super important
pine glacier
you have a finite number of choices for form
much like any other cosmetic anything ever
raven pebble
I do because they were finitely given to me
pine glacier
but we must now stretch the concept to infinity because lacrymas, specifically, thinks it's "pointless" unless you can make the physical reality of races straight from your iamgination with no limits
this is a dumb conversation lmao
raven pebble
the whole argument from Triumph themselves was that someone complained why they couldn't look like elves but have 10% more damage
pine glacier
are there any other objections on this point
raven pebble
then I complain why I can't look like a cthulhu monster
upper axle
but we must now stretch the concept to infinity because lacrymas, specifically, ...
If modding is an option you technically can model and nod in whatever forms and traits you want
But that's something way different
bold thicket
then I complain why I can't look like a cthulhu monster
You're right, I'd love that. It's just not as simple to do as simply not limiting traits to form. One is a ton of development resources to create new forms/form customization to the max, the other is a toggle.
crisp compass
If you want you can even mod traits to be locked by form
raven pebble
You're right, I'd love that. It's just not as simple to do as *simply not limiti...
that's why it's not a convincing argument ;d
pine glacier
then I complain why I can't look like a cthulhu monster
you have given me something new to complain about, but i don't think this absence is a terribly important or substantive one
raven pebble
they can't provide us with the thing they argued for
pine glacier
that's why it's not a convincing argument ;d
you are the one advocating for change. it is your duty to convince lmao
you want to change the mind of the triumph devs correct? is that not your goal?
raven pebble
no, I just like arguing
raven pebble
I know they won't change it because of the realities of development
wet bronze
it's interesting how calcified the tolkienesque fantasy stuff has become
raven pebble
my arguments are valid, you just refuse to take your own argument to its logical extreme
wet bronze
like it's basically dogma that orcs are big and elves are small
pine glacier
i'm glad you got to use this as your personal argumentative playground, rather than work with everyone on the shared goal of mutual understanding
wet bronze
well even though in the OG LOTR orcs and goblins were both small and tiny but w/e
pine glacier
my arguments are valid, you just refuse to take your own argument to its logical...
yeah because the logical extreme is extremely irrelevant here, unless youa re only looking for an opponent in the thunderdome
raven pebble
like it's basically dogma that orcs are big and elves are small
literally not what this is a bout ;d
wet bronze
i mean it absolutely is lol
bold thicket
my arguments are valid, you just refuse to take your own argument to its logical...
You're saying something is invalid because it's not perfect. That's been the gist of several of your arguments and it's absurd.
raven pebble
yeah because the logical extreme is *extreme*ly irrelevant here, unless youa re ...
it's really not irrelevant because it's the only argument from Triumph themselves
if I were them I'd just say "well, you can't look like an elf and be as muscly as an orc"
pine glacier
no i do not think the argument from triumph is about taking things to the logical extreme
wet bronze
pine glacier
i think the only reason you would think that is if you were specifically seeking out a reason to oppose a viewpoint
bold thicket
if I were them I'd just say "well, you can't look like an elf and be as muscly a...
I'm really glad you're not triumph then, because you would not be able to make this game with their stated goals.
wet bronze
pine glacier
lmfao
wet bronze
muscle orc dogma
upper axle
You can be magically adapted by the Wizard King lmao
raven pebble
I'm saying this in the context of the game's lore
pine glacier
this is what happens when you argue just to argue, you self contradict
raven pebble
not in general about any orc everywhere
crisp turret
Halfling warlords is a lame combination for me but I do appreciate the thematic bonuses unique to that combination, forms will not have even that
bold thicket
I'm saying this in the context of the game's lore
In the context of the game's lore? This is EXACTLY what wizard kings did.
pine glacier
Halfling warlords is a lame combination for me but I do appreciate the thematic ...
yeah cultures might though
it's be cool to see that gameplay element return, i agree
it is not conjoined at the hip to form though
raven pebble
In the context of the game's lore? This is *EXACTLY* what wizard kings did.
in the context of the already-established elves and orcs
bold thicket
not in general about any orc everywhere
Not every orc is the same either. Heck, even in LotR
sonic trellis
Warhammer vs WarCraft Orcs
wet bronze
orcs should be blackish and small and the same as goblins
tight needle
In a cutscene in god of war, Kratos and Thor leap over a mountain and battle mid-flight. In the game, you need to push levers to move a bridge so you can clear a 20 ft gap. Lacrymas' arguement about gameplay vs. lore is completely pointless
raven pebble
Not every orc is the same either. Heck, even in LotR
but they are generally more similar to each other than to the elves
raven pebble
In a cutscene in god of war, Kratos and Thor leap over a mountain and battle mid...
this is called a ludonarrative dissonance
tight needle
yes
raven pebble
and it's a bad thing ;d
tight needle
not necessarily
pine glacier
he knows the game criticism word!
bold thicket
but they are generally more similar to each other than to the elves
Also, they were elves in lotr
crisp turret
yeah cultures might though
Culture by itself is closer to class thematically, it being intended as the equivalent of race doesn’t change the fact that what we want is meaningful race choice, which in every game but this it’s the species rather than the culture
sonic trellis
tbh for me the 180 change in race/form philosophy between Planetfall and 4 is just an odd, some might even say a little jarring, change that I'm going through the three (I skipped two because I'm not genuinely angry or sad about it) stages of grief for.
pine glacier
Culture by itself is closer to class thematically, it being intended as the equi...
what are tomes
wet bronze
maybe let's go elder scrolls? orcs, dwarves, and elves, are all elves
tight needle
you cannot make an all powerful wizard in game, because you cannot make infinite possibilities in a game, as the game's code is finite
wet bronze
everyone is elves
tight needle
so you have to make concessions as to how to get that feel out of the game even if you aren't literally all powerful
bold thicket
Hmm, I wonder just how many potential combinations there are for a faction to be different from another at game start, and then when the game ends
upper axle
It feels as complaining about not being able to flood an entire map instantly when playing Nimue
wet bronze
culture will be race (even has the standard starting 6 of em), tomes will be classes
crisp turret
what are tomes
Spheres of magic, expanded Specializations in AoW3 terms, you can say Tomes are specialization that absorbed part of the classes and culture classes that absorbed the role of races, “races” were left as a husk with no longer any gameplay significance
wet bronze
i think a lot of this be will resolved on thursday
y'all just gonna hang on until tommorow bros we can do it
crisp compass
tbh for me the 180 change in race/form philosophy between Planetfall and 4 is ju...
Understandable, but it all stems from our goals for AoW4. We approach each title with fresh eyes and different things we want to achieve with them. This is just one of those things that fit natural with what we want to do.
sonic trellis
Indeed
tight needle
Personally, I prefer the full customizability
That means its in the hands of the player what kind of narrative they want to craft with the races
sonic trellis
I am glad that this information is revealed very early on so that people can temper their expectations and go through the acceptance stage sooner
raven pebble
oh, they'll probably backpedal with that like they did with racial governance ;d
tight needle
As far as I understand it, you can make buff elves and elegant orcs, but you don't have to do that
raven pebble
games don't ship complete anymore ever
pine glacier
Spheres of magic, expanded Specializations in AoW3 terms, you can say Tomes are ...
this seems a lot more convoluted than "culture is what race used to be, tomes are what class used to be"
tight needle
games don't ship complete anymore ever
define complete
do you want a game that releases and never gets any updates?
because a "complete" game wouldn't need to
it already has everything
raven pebble
tomes aren't quite as analogous to class because you couldn't mix classes, but you can mix tomes
sonic trellis
even old games had to be patched
pine glacier
you guys know that lacrymas can not be convinced of another viewpoint and will do this forever right
like he basically said so himself
he's here to fight
tight needle
im just making fun of him for flip flopping on his own opinions and making incoherent and self-defeating arguements
wet bronze
i cannot wait to get dommed by some slim yet strangely strong muscle elves
raven pebble
oh, I can be convinced
pine glacier
im just making fun of him for flip flopping on his own opinions and making incoh...
this is fair
raven pebble
I just haven't been convinced yet ;d
tight needle
I'm convinced you are a fool
pine glacier
lmao
raven pebble
that's great
tight needle
i cannot wait to get dommed by some slim yet strangely strong muscle elves
mommy? sorry. mommy? sorry
i will make evil assassin frogs
they are literally cold blooded
raven pebble
do you want a game that releases and never gets any updates?
where have I said that? ;d
tight needle
where have I said that? ;d
i asked a question, i didn't imply anything
pine glacier
where have I said that? ;d
it's the logical extreme of wanting complete games
raven pebble
then no, I don't want such a game
sonic trellis
cold-blooded in-game is a mind trait I think, I wonder what it does
tight needle
then its fine that games ship incomplete
pine glacier
games don't ship complete anymore ever
yes it does
tight needle
ah i see you are typing up so much crap that you forget your own arguments
"Haha, I only pretended to be an idiot!"
raven pebble
what argument have I made with that?
crisp turret
this seems a lot more convoluted than "culture is what race used to be, tomes ar...
It’s convoluted because “Tomes and culture” are hardly a 1:1 equivalent of “classes and races” just the closest equivalent, saying that Tomes combine elements of specialization and classes is totally the best description of it
raven pebble
I said they'll probably backpedal with the whole race is totally cosmetic thing like they did with racial governance
pine glacier
It’s convoluted because “Tomes and culture” are hardly a 1:1 equivalent of “cla...
yeah i wonder if maybe we should abandon our attachments to concepts like what a race represented in previous games andlook at what the new game is doing on its own terms
silver crest
race isnt totally cosmetic, form is :V
wet bronze
triumph over here being like "we explicitly did not call them races to avoid this and now the game feedback section blowing up"
"damnit i told you we should have put form last"
crisp compass
Alright guys consider this a friendly warning. Remember to be polite and not result to insults or personal attacks.
This is understandably a controversial aspect of Age of Wonders 4. We want folks to be able to have a place to discuss this but if it can't be done properly we will have to take actions.
fossil berry
Eh, I'm pretty sure the devs expected a discussion about this to happen.
tight needle
i think the form itself is only graphically limited to not encompass physical differences between the traits you choose, I imagine elves being more beefy wouldn't look like normal elves but more like this
raven pebble
...that's a fetish ;D
raven pebble
that as well ;d
crisp turret
Muscled barbarian elven girls do have their appeal… but still think there should be a form difference, more graze chance or a blade dancer instead of berserker for elf barbarians is that sort of thing, form problem is not the customization per se, but that it doesn’t bring anything to the table
pine glacier
i think having a cosmetic only option in race creation is ok
it does not need to "bring anything to the table" if there is suitable complexity from the other options
fossil berry
I loved AoW2 Bladedancer. Double strike was a really nice ability.
modest cipher
I think I am ok with this system at launch. A unique unit or two per form might be nice to add later
crisp turret
Well, the a common argument against is that form traditionalist is that they lose nothing if customization is allowed, so I will turn the tables on the form radicals, what you lose making form have these unique details? If we talk about it being harder to implement you have to remember that making forms modular was the harder option to begin with, making form have these is a comparative drop in the bucked for what they signed
modest cipher
for one thing there appear to be more traits available than there are forms
and the terrain specialty traits will make a lot of forms suboptimal on certain maps
pine glacier
Well, the a common argument against is that form traditionalist is that they los...
what i lose is not being able to combine my halfling fanfiction with a specific gameplay effect
next question
crisp turret
You really were upset about having Festive Golems instead of normal ones as Halfling dread I suppose
pine glacier
that game had different gameplay goals and i judged it on different considerations as a result
for example: the ability to swap out halfling models for elf models didn't really occur to me and i had no need to defend it or get entrenched in a position about it
but more to the point: yes i hope we get those kinds of variants out of culture
that differentiation in gameplay was cool
modest cipher
and tomes
pine glacier
i do not see the need to tie it to specifically a cosmetic attribute
crisp turret
what i lose is not being able to combine my halfling fanfiction with a specific ...
Also trying to cut what could be a fairly developed and fun mechanic because your halflings fanfition couldn’t can’t replicate 1:1 everyone else? Hah and we are the selfish ones apparently
pine glacier
Also trying to cut what could be a fairly developed and fun mechanic because you...
the same mechanic can be applied to: not forms
so no, i don't want to cut it
i want it in, but tied to something else, because this cosmetic attribute should remain cosmetic
once again lol
all of the things you describe you could bolt onto culture or w/e instead of form instead
ooh maybe even tie it into the form traits, so it's closer to being about the race's physical attributes but still keeping with the existing structure
crisp turret
“Human shamans prefer spirit and orc ones are competent at melee” is not a mechanic that can’t be done with tomes or culture, because evidently humans and orcs are a form
pine glacier
“Human shamans prefer spirit and orc ones are competent at melee” is not a mecha...
"high shamans (gotten from nature tome) prefer spirit and barbarian ones are competent at melee"
because it's not like there were variants on black knights in aow3 right? you're just so tied up in form = race
the cultural units have no variants. racial units in previous games had no variants. race = culture but you can swap out the 3d models now if you want
crisp turret
Well, sorry for not seeing an orc a halfling, a normal croc and a blob as the literally the same thing that can do everything each other can.
Race = culture is only esoterically true as game mechanic in this game, anyone at glance will not see it at all
wet bronze
i do understand the "WYSIWYG" concern
pine glacier
Race = culture is only esoterically true as game mechanic in this game, anyone a...
"anyone"
wet bronze
but like, i think we largely got over that in AOW3 and planetfall
pine glacier
you speak as though there is only one side to this debate
crisp turret
"anyone"
You yourself said that on AoW3 you didn’t even though about that being a distinction until it was introduced here so you naturally would have assumed that race was still what it meant if not for the dev diary, let alone newbies purchasing the game
pine glacier
anyways as long as we can condense the actual point of contention down to "i just simply do not believe that an orc should be allowed to do those things"
wet bronze
AoW3 launched with very few distinctions
that was one of the main criticisms actually, was that race was almost meaningless and it was really the classes that had all the strategic impact
pine glacier
yeah only having 6 possible gameplay combinations was an issue
wet bronze
the equivalent would be if AoW4 only had form and culture, and no tomes or cultural traits
pine glacier
game needed more variety aside form pure class and they added it
wet bronze
the tomes, traits, cultures, transformations, and culture modifiers (w/e they were called - the cannibal stuff) together excite me because it reminds me of how stellaris does its customization, which is really just picking modifier after modifier until you step back and say "woah, this is really cool"
sour aspen
society traits are the ones that give us cannibal halflings
pine glacier
i hope there's a society trait for "smokes constantly"
crisp turret
Now think about this, newbie purchases game and likes orcs, “why they don’t have anything unique to them?!” Repeat for humans, elf’s, dwarfs, fans of these like different things, most would be happy if each form did something, because the average goblin fan would not be jealous about orcs being stronger, he likes goblins for swarms, if not why goblins would be the favorite instead of orcs otherwise?
wet bronze
i'm not sure everyone is a fantasy race "fan" to begin with
pine glacier
are we playing armchair marketing expert now
are we talking about a good game or one that sells many copies
these are very different conversations
sour aspen
because he can just play with the ai defaults and not having to play or fight swole goblins?
crisp turret
Halfling fans that want orcs in Halfling skin are the party poopers for those
sour aspen
suuuure
wet bronze
i have never identified myself as a fantasy race fan
pine glacier
it is extremely important that we define who is and is not a "party pooper"
modest cipher
I mean I do want 4 to sell well, if only for long-term support
wet bronze
this is strange to me
pine glacier
some people are very attached to the concept of dwarves
modest cipher
you have the default fantasy-trope traits for the races
wet bronze
actually last time someone told me she was a goblin fan she meant that she didnt like showering
pine glacier
Now think about this, newbie purchases game and likes orcs, “why they don’t have...
sounds like a failure of marketing or UI to make it apparent that the forms are cosmetic only btw
not a game design problem
you are describing someone experiencing a miscommunication
wet bronze
we all got a lil goblin in us
sour aspen
you are describing someone experiencing a miscommunication
which is ironic giving the situation that he can't take the idea the devs already made it clear you can play tropes without the extra spicy races
pine glacier
i hope to one day meet the hypothetical gamer who sees that halflings are cosmetic and says "i will not buy this game for this reason." i am sure their brothers in arms are great and numerous
much respect to that guy, who knows what he wants and what he's about
crisp turret
What is the difference between a ferocious strong barbarian orc shaman and a ferocious strong barbarian Molemen shaman again?
wet bronze
i mean you already said both were strong and ferocious and shamanistic
pine glacier
yeah
orcs and molemen can both do whatever their hearts set out to
in this i truly believe
crisp turret
That is it? If giants were a form giant cavalry should be downgraded to the same T2 cavalry everyone has right?
wet bronze
like if you gave me two resumes and both had 4.0 GPA, great work experience, good schools, solid references except one was an orc and one was a moleperson
modest cipher
Ogres at least are some form of recruitable NPC unit, gaints might be too
pine glacier
anyways as long as we can condense the actual point of contention down to "i jus...
can we skip to the end of this
wet bronze
so i get the visual aspect here is the issue
pine glacier
i believe an orc should be allowed to do those things
i also believe a moleman should be allowed to do those things
modest cipher
You yourself said that on AoW3 you didn’t even though about that being a distinc...
anyway, the point I would make is that this is a very different system and "race" design can't be evaluated on the same terms
pine glacier
i do not believe you are open to being convinced on this topic
wet bronze
the idea is that orcs are bigger (look bigger), and that carries connotations of strength and weight, i get that
day 1 mod release: tiny forms (moles, rats, goblins, toads) , +1 (something that makes them harder to hit), big forms (everyone) else, +5 hp
bam
pine glacier
i kinda wish halflings weren't a thing, and if you wanted them you'd select form: human size: tiny
wet bronze
lord i hope the sliders let me make tall af halflings
pine glacier
lord i hope the sliders let me make tall af halflings
wholelings
wet bronze
like what if you pick strong traits and it locks out your muscle sliders
lmao exxactly
raven pebble
i hope to one day meet the hypothetical gamer who sees that halflings are cosmet...
people actively don't buy games because they have a female protagonist, so people actually choose which games to buy based on cosmetic preferences
wet bronze
"in this game you are wizard that can make your own race! so long as they are male"
pine glacier
i wonder what kind of audience can be captured by saying "whatever your cosmetic preference we will give you the tools to realize it"
i am also excited to hear that we wish to cater to "dude who refuses to play as a girl"
raven pebble
i wonder what kind of audience can be captured by saying "whatever your cosmetic...
the transgenders and alternative people ;d
wet bronze
oh boy here we go
raven pebble
i am also excited to hear that we wish to cater to "dude who refuses to play as ...
this was literally done and is still being used as an argument
pine glacier
the transgenders and alternative people ;d
they do in fact deserve a game too
sour aspen
this is weird hill to die on my dude
wet bronze
who would have guessed fantasy race essentialism would have uh, real world counterpart beliefs
pine glacier
i think he's """just making observations"""
raven pebble
who is just making observations?
raven pebble
what ;d
wet bronze
so yeah i guess if you struggle with customization irl you're gonna struggle with customization in a fantasy game
crisp turret
Well, races are a misnomer, these are different species, and the essentialism here is that a juman will never be stronger than a bear
wet bronze
i could definitely take some bears
pine glacier
Well, races are a misnomer, these are different species, and the essentialism he...
i think you are missing the actual point being made
"would have uh, real world counterpart beliefs" is the important part
crisp turret
In fantasy we can nudge that, a human CAN be stronger than the average bear, but the strongest bear should be stronger than the strongest human
pine glacier
in your specific fantasy, yes
in fantasy we can also "nudge" that "the strongest human can out punch the strongest bear" and i believe i have seen a large number of hit popular anime based on this concept
wet bronze
yeah if we already had halfling berzerkers take down orc berzerkers
raven pebble
I'm already lost, weren't we discussing how people buy games based on optics alone?
wet bronze
at some point, we're handwaving anyway
"look this molepeople are strong not because they are big, but because they have advanced musclature because reasons or whatever, point is your orc got stabbed"
pine glacier
I'm already lost, weren't we discussing how people buy games based on optics alo...
no this is an anime discussion now
pine glacier
(there are multiple conversations happening simultaneously in a shared space)
wet bronze
how does this work
pine glacier
their muscles are large, unlike halflings
wet bronze
poor halflings
pine glacier
we can never reconcile such fundamental differences in physical reality
wet bronze
dwarves have special dwarf muscles
i am a dwarf biologist
you know i really hope no one irl finds my discord account, gonna have to explain some things
pine glacier
i am a dwarf biologist
halflings use their special speed bladder to store speed, which they can then use later to escape foes in armed combat
wet bronze
"luck is like urine"
ivory raft
i cannot wait to get dommed by some slim yet strangely strong muscle elves
*Laughs in Warbreed*
wet bronze
i forgot about the warbreeds!!
yeah dang sorry guys this ship has sailed back in aow3
ivory raft
Hmmm... Can we make a succubus warbreed? 🤔
crisp turret
in fantasy we can also "nudge" that "the strongest human can out punch the stron...
The super special MC and company sure are that is why they are the chosen ones, the civilians and secondary characters aren’t stronger than the monsters
pine glacier
not in my hit video game world of warcraft
crisp turret
The thing is nudging too much makes it lose its meaning, like buying a Halo game that is set on an alt universe where covenant doesn’t exist and humans from alpha centauri, sure is fiction but why call it “halo” then? Maybe someone likes that idea but don’t count on it
crisp turret
brand recognition i guess
Yeah, how to piss off the previous customers 101
upbeat patio
The thing is nudging too much makes it lose its meaning, like buying a Halo game...
Or making a halo tv series that doesn't actually care what halo is about? 🤣
pine glacier
so we are playing armchair marketing expert???
is the purpose of this criticism that it's not a good game or that it's not a good business decision
i would like to focus one of these two things
swapping between these two different arguments at your fancy is not enjoyable
upbeat patio
Yeah, how to piss off the previous customers 101
For my part I'm someone who really loved the unique races and classes/specializations we had in AoW3 and PF so I also have my concerns, but at this moment in time I feel like we don't know enough to come to a conclusion so it's better to wait and see, because regardless it's most likely to late to change anything now. I'm going to try and keep an open mind.
crisp turret
There is armchair marketing and there is damn common sense, if you are know for good hamburgers you stick with that instead of switching to hotdogs in hopes of getting a new market, how is doing the Halo TV show for their “well researched “ marketing stunt?
pine glacier
i think if my local hamburger shop branched out into hotdogs i would not have an issue with that????
?????????????????????
you would?????
silver crest
what if they put a hamburger in a hotdog bun though
sour aspen
what kind of comparison is that that anyway??
''this tv show that was made by random people is the same as this game made by the original studio and their series for the last 20 years''
crisp turret
you would?????
I would if they ditched the burgers
wet bronze
ok sure if AoW4 was an RTS i would prob not buy
pine glacier
I would if they ditched the burgers
aow3 and pf are still available for you to purchase and play
wet bronze
but this is clearly a continuation of the customization angle they have pursued since aow3
upbeat patio
what kind of comparison is that that anyway??
''this tv show that was made by ra...
Wasn't meant to be a comparison - it was just me being annoyed that they got someone that didn't care about halo to make a halo tv series 😅 Had nothing to do with the current discussion =3
sour aspen
oh i know is that all is using as an argument and it doesn't make sense
upbeat patio
Didn't mean for it to sidetrack the discussion 😇
pine glacier
ok sure if AoW4 was an RTS i would prob not buy
dude i would, that sounds kinda sick actually
wet bronze
we going spellforce 3/warlords battlecry with it?
modest cipher
the new Spellforce is a TBS in a traditionally RTS series actually
crisp turret
The original Studio is perfectly capable of making blunders the same way new meat can doing a ip
pine glacier
yeah i guess we'll have to wait until it comes out and we can play it and see
crisp turret
Yeah, we will see (pun intended)
sonic trellis
I would love to make an Age of Wonders-inspired RTS on the OpenRA engine
delicate linden
the new Spellforce is a TBS in a traditionally RTS series actually
What does TBS stand for?
modest cipher
turn based strategy
wet bronze
ok maybe rts was a bad example, AOW4 is a dating simulator, puzzle game, and FPS
pine glacier
you are selling me on this much harder
wet bronze
each part of the game is awkwardly interconnected so you have to play all 3
pine glacier
i would love to see what triumph devs do under those conditions
low kestrel
What is the difference between a ferocious strong barbarian orc shaman and a fer...
None
pine glacier
and when the dust is just beginning to settle a lone shot rings out
low kestrel
I would love to make an Age of Wonders-inspired RTS on the OpenRA engine
Let's do it!
crisp turret
Triumph made remake of Daikatana “ Lennart will make you his penguin” for those that really want to imagine a train wreck 
low kestrel
Triumph made remake of Daikatana “ Lennart will make you his penguin” for those...
Huh?
proud nest
I just do not understand why some of you need the game to conform to your preconceptions and tropes in a way that affects how I play the game
You have the option to play with the standard forms with standard traits, and I'm sure the AI will not deviate unless you create such non-conforming factions yourself
Let me play my strong seafaring ratmen, and you can enjoy your brute orcs and mystical elves
That way, BOTH of us can be happy.
proud nest
I just fear this loud minority might actually influence the devs
(I hope they're a minority)
pine glacier
this is the total number of people involved in this argument
who knows what kind of selection bias is at play
oh wait add this to that
crisp turret
I just fear this loud minority might actually influence the devs
Maybe YOU are the minority, looking at your “favorite Faction” thread most are talking about forms as if these still meant something
pine glacier
anyways if all 33 people in here fall in line to a singular perspective that has influenced nothing
proud nest
Maybe YOU are the minority, looking at your “favorite Faction” thread most are t...
To some, cosmetics mean something
pine glacier
oh my god who cares
proud nest
There is not a single mention of traits in that thread, think of that what you want
crisp turret
Us apparently 
proud nest
Well, now that I have you here... Please, enlighten me as to why how I play the game has any effect on you.
pine glacier
it's very important that we determine who in this ideological divide is the most popular couple in school that will be named prom king and queen
modest cipher
people value lots of diversity in factions and playstyles
modest cipher
now, will people generally care that much if it comes from "race" in the traditional fantasy sense or if that is offloaded to other choices? dunno
yeah ok we've been over it enough
crisp turret
Well, now that I have you here... Please, enlighten me as to why how I play the ...
Is less about controlling you and more about the design choice of forms downgrading what once was a staple to a cosmetic choice, what affects you if forms retained the minor variations that race once bestow to classes/secret techs?
violet cedar
it's very important that we determine who in this ideological divide is the most...
I don't play fantasy strategy games because i will suffer others to wear crowns, give me both hats please.
pine glacier
anyways as long as we can condense the actual point of contention down to "i jus...
here is the end point
we will get here again in like 500 more messages
proud nest
Is less about controlling you and more about the design choice of forms downgrad...
Forms being tied to certain units, techs and bonuses reduces the control we have over our own faction. The way I see it, the design decision that has been made gives you and me more power to create the faction we desire. If you want to play classic strong barbarian orcs, you can. And if I want to play something entirely new, say seafaring moles, I can. How is this not a win-win?
crisp turret
Forms being tied to certain units, techs and bonuses reduces the control we have...
Your seafaring molemen will be exactly the same as a sea faring dwarf, wouldn’t be cool if your faction had a little something special for that unique combination?
proud nest
anyways as long as we can condense the actual point of contention down to "i jus...
But that's the beauty of it: you, the player, decides if an orc is allowed to "do those things". Because the AI will not create their own factions. So YOU control what happens on YOUR screen.
I control what happens on MINE
proud nest
Your seafaring molemen will be exactly the same as a sea faring dwarf, wouldn’t ...
It would be cool, but that combination is already something special. That's the beauty of it.
I created that special thing
pine glacier
But that's the beauty of it: you, the player, decides if an orc is allowed to "d...
i'm on your side
proud nest
i'm on your side
I know. I'm using "you" as a fictional opponent of sorts 🤓
pine glacier
the core contention is "i do not think an orc should be allowed to do those things" vs "i am fine with an orc being allowed to do those things"
modest cipher
I mean I don't think that's fair
low kestrel
We don't know this yet, but maybe the society traits are numerous, diverse and powerful enough to really make a difference?
modest cipher
Eye's saying Orc should do these things a little differently
I'm somewhat sympathetic, but I think a lot of those race/class variations have been offloaded to other mechanics
proud nest
the core contention is "i do not think an orc should be allowed to do those thin...
I see no valid argument that there is something inherently bad with leaving that decision to the player, instead of hard-coding it into the game
pine glacier
yeah same
watch this guy pull out some stuff about how it's poor marketing or something
proud nest
I'm somewhat sympathetic, but I think a lot of those race/class variations have ...
I agree with this sentiment
pure sparrow
it's very important that we determine who in this ideological divide is the most...
I was almost prom king
pure sparrow
Thank you
pine glacier
wait not so fast
how do you feel about forms ugh
i say, with my vote still in hand hovering over the ballot box
crisp turret
It would be cool, but that combination is already something special. That's the ...
Well, i only want that little cool extra, which is not possible if “we” are fine with forms being purely cosmetic, so the feedback goes into making forms account for something more than cosmetic, it will not take out from the beauty of your custom race after all
pure sparrow
I now want to have fully customizable races
pine glacier
ok i'll drop the vote in
proud nest
Well, i only want that little cool extra, which is not possible if “we” are fine...
I don't think unique mechanics tied to race are any better than such mechanics being tied to traits, cultures, tomes and so on.
crisp turret
But some of them being will make you unable to make mole sailors more than culture and tomes would?
pine glacier
there and back again: a hobbit's tale
proud nest
The way I see it, your "race" in a traditional fantasy-sense is created by your choice of traits. Those traits being tied to unique bonuses is just as cool as your race in AoW3 being tied to unique bonuses.
pure sparrow
I mean at the end of the day there will most likely be mods that add racial bonuses it will just be better this way with fully customization
proud nest
I mean at the end of the day there will most likely be mods that add racial bonu...
True, although I get a suspicion that a lot of the players calling for hard-locked races are the same players who regard themselves as "purists" and therefore don't like mods
just a hunch
pure sparrow
well then give them a pickled egg to suck on
pine glacier
tbf "it'll be fixed by mods" relies on passing an additional access barrier and hoping the modders do a good job
i would not find such an answer satisfactory
proud nest
I understand this sentiment
At the same time, I find it a bit arrogant to want to dictate the confines around others' freedom of choice in the game
There is no real, consequential drawback to the current system for most, as they are free to set up their own boundaries in their own game
I cannot force my moleman pirates into their game, just as they cannot force their standard races into mine
pine glacier
i just like the egalitarian nature of this system and i think people getting upset about ti before they can even play the game for poorly thought out "gameplay reasons" is very silly
pure sparrow
It adds a lot more then it takes away
crisp turret
You can’t make your culture devoted to good and ritual cannibals, isn’t that a limitation? Keep in mind that Kirko are cannibals and still are able to be good celestians in planetfall, why that limitation is okay but forms aren’t?
sonic trellis
Alignments are a sliding scale of points
pine glacier
to get dangerously political it is a pet peeve of mine the way fantasy settings will go "oh, differences between the races? no, not true, only racists would say that, very bad thing to advocate. but what if things did work that way? what if the racists were right and there were disparate peoples and cultures who were indeed physically different and fundamentally incompatible? let's have a fun time imagining such a place"
this is not to accuse anyone who likes that of being racist or whatever (you are not the media you consume) and i certainly enjoy many settings that have this "problem." but man would it be nice to see a little more variety and get some settings that move away from this, at least in wish fulfillment video games if nothing else.
proud nest
You can’t make your culture devoted to good and ritual cannibals, isn’t that a l...
I guess that is a limitation, and I'm unsure how I feel about it. I will say though, that certain limitations might be necessary to set up some sort of logic in a universe. Like the "Lawful vs Chaotic" and "Good vs Evil" in DnD. Or the fact that ice is cold and fire is hot, and the two even each other out. It might be one of those things.
I'll mull that one over until tomorrow. Good night, fellas 🙂
pine glacier
You can’t make your culture devoted to good and ritual cannibals, isn’t that a l...
i dislike it but w/e i'm not gonna throw a hissy fit over it
sonic trellis
I would not be surprised if it is possible to make good cannibals, you just have to gather more good points to make up for your initial evil points
pine glacier
also was not aware of this
why can't we be good cannibals
i want to be the good cannibal race
proud nest
"Imma eat you, but it's for the greater good trust me!"
That specific limitation does sound kinda lame tbh, let's see how it plays out.
Good night for realsies this time 😛
pine glacier
it's how we honor our fallen foes
in recognition of their strength we yearn to be more like them, and so a piece of them will become part of us
pure sparrow
I agree we should have good cannibals that will actually be so much fun
tight needle
this arguement is just amusing to me because everything I see here has been discussed to death when it came to D&D 5e's Tashas or PF 2e where this exact discussion was held
and the general tone I found is people overwhelmingly favor the custom race tools over the prescriptive ones, even if they still made the races according to the stereotypes
because as it turns out, people even have disagreements on what the stereotype should be
i.e. whether Orcs are brutal but cunning or cunning yet brutal
raven pebble
yeah, D&D 5E discussion isn't a place where you'll find rigid traditionalists
...because a large portion of them are queer or non-conforming in some way ;d
raven pebble
I'm just saying it isn't surprising
pine glacier
uh huh
raven pebble
and given how there is only one way (tm) to be queer on the internet
it creates an echo chamber
raven pebble
you can't not have noticed that D&D 5E attracts a very specific kind of nerd
crisp turret
It means that D&D doesn’t has opposition because most of the remaining players are queer and those find the notion of traditions to be anathema, so that extrapolates in that game being positive to the chances made
That is what I suppose it meant anyway
raven pebble
and queer nerds at that
and being a specific kind of person around others like yourself, you start preaching to the choir
tight needle
and given how there is only one way (tm) to be queer on the internet
you wanna come up to me and say that out loud
pure sparrow
raven pebble
you wanna come up to me and say that out loud
you are exactly the type of queer nerd I'm envisioning actually ;d
pine glacier
dude
tight needle
It means that D&D doesn’t has opposition because most of the remaining players a...
i think D&D has a lot of conservative players but they usually play OSR
pine glacier
how do i ping mods in here we need someone overseeing this
crisp turret
We shouldn’t generalize form radicals, shotas could want to keep races while the church mom could want to have sanitized good orcs
main cloud
I'm gonna have to put my foot down here. Nobody's identity or politics should have any factor in this discussion.
raven pebble
it shouldn't but it kinda does
main cloud
Next time I see gender identity or politics mentioned I'm putting someone in timepit.
timeout*
wet bronze
I think we can close the thread
pine glacier
no throw them into the darkest deepest time pit
pure sparrow
Put them in a cave far away
tight needle
either way, as I noted, the problem with rigid races is that - to keep it with orcs - that not everyone pictures orcs the same way, even if we limit it to the classic evil, green orcs. For example, the Warhammer Fantasy Orks are notably distinct from lord of the rings orcs. And if you fashion them in one way, someone who would rather have them be the other kind would be disappointed
wet bronze
We already covered the form essentialist and form flexible positions
pure sparrow
I feel like we should go ahead to the suggestions channel and brainstorm new ideas there this has been talked about enough
raven pebble
this is the suggestions channel ;d
tight needle
technically this is a feedback channel
raven pebble
since we don't have the game yet
we can't give feedback on it ;d
so I assumed it's suggestions
shut tangle
Given you guys have turned this thread into literally hours of condescending one-line-snipes at each other, maybe let's discuss a variant idea:
Form traits create unit variants. Like ferocious berserkers get a warcry ability.
wet bronze
how do I delete thread
fossil berry
5e isn't that good of an argument, if you consider how many people refused to drop 3.5e. Or how many people remained with Pathfinder 1. There's basically 2 different default/goto/primary versions.
I'm not saying that it is definitely because of race meaning, because you'd need some really large surveys to find out, but it definitely doesn't make for an argument where "dynamic" races are obviously better.
fossil berry
how do I delete thread
left in the channel thing, right-click, then Unfollow post.
raven pebble
there are a lot of people, myself included, who objected to the race attribute mixing in Tasha's
so it's not like it had unanimous support and was a resounding success
pine glacier
5e isn't that good of an argument, if you consider how many people refused to dr...
i think the described conclusions are a good descriptive summary of the strengths of that approach
even for people who want orc tropes, which orc tropes? there's some that are mutually incompatible and this lets you choose which version your orcs follow
raven pebble
the tropes which are native to the setting we are playing in
fossil berry
Yup, we already got orc tropes in AoW. People like those orcs.
pine glacier
and for what reason does orc barbarian not fit the bill
raven pebble
this isn't about a Platonic Ideal of an orc, it's about them having an identity in the setting
raven pebble
yeah and people complained about that as well ;d
pine glacier
...that orcs could be sorcerers?
raven pebble
that anyone can be anything
but at least they had some baseline differences and you could come up with wacky combinations
pine glacier
anyways as long as we can condense the actual point of contention down to "i jus...
horray we're back
crisp turret
Goblin theocrats were weird, but the complains on race focused on each one having something, even the non favorites, remember how plain humans were in early AoW3
pine glacier
retro edition: now it applies to aow3 too
raven pebble
it has always applied to aow 3 ;d
tacit fox
Goblin theocrats were weird, but the complains on race focused on each one havin...
I thought turning humans towards naval exploits was a really cool way to define them.
pine glacier
you see it's a traditionalist argument about the existing orc tropes except for the previous game's expansion of orc identity that was bad
raven pebble
what
pine glacier
i feel like all i do here is line up strawmen and say "hey can you explain to me how you aren't this imaginary stupid person i made up" and then people jump into the straw and shout "no that's exactly me!"
violet cedar
He's saying orc sorcerers, archdruids etc. are already canonical expression of orcdom within the setting.
crisp turret
It was bad but having thematic orc strengths made up for it, specially since we could downplay the shock choosing destruction magic or shadowborn theocrat
AoW will not even have that, forms are a practical non factor
violet cedar
And that finding them contentious is picking and choosing your history in this supposed argument to setting and tradition.
raven pebble
He's saying orc sorcerers, archdruids etc. are already canonical expression of o...
and it was bad back then too and people complained about it
pine glacier
series has been bad from the start sorry to say
violet cedar
and it was bad back then too and people complained about it
again, you are picking and choosing your favourite bits of setting history in your argument that the setting is sacrosanct, are argument that if made in good faith requires taking the setting as it is, not as you wish it to be.
modest cipher
people are complaining about halfling warlords now?
tacit fox
people are complaining about halfling warlords now?
Were halfling warbreeds even half sized?
pine glacier
people are complaining about halfling warlords now?
orc sorcerers actually
pine glacier
Were halfling warbreeds even half sized?
yes
modest cipher
yeah I mean the general category
raven pebble
again, you are picking and choosing your favourite bits of setting history in yo...
I have never pointed to a specific point in time to draw the perfect image of the setting from
modest cipher
the visual racial differences between classes was pretty small but that was fixed in an early mod
raven pebble
I'm saying the wishy-washy approach to races was criticized back in AoW3 times too
so it's not like "it was fine in AoW3, so why isn't it fine now"
pine glacier
and you agree with them
or are you pointing out that some people somewhere said something
raven pebble
yes ;d
pine glacier
ok just so we're clear
raven pebble
I was among the people who criticized the wishy-washy race thing in AoW3, yes
crisp turret
Don’t chose combinations you don’t like not big deal, my game is devoid of Halfling warlords, the big deal is form not giving an unique bonus, looking what special thing humans or draconian unlocked for their class in thematic form was something good
pine glacier
Don’t chose combinations you don’t like not big deal, my game is devoid of Halfl...
do the same but culture
lets repeat the same sound bytes at each other nonstop
fossil berry
Oh, I agree that AoW3 was fine. Because races had an identity outside of classes. Your Orc sorcerer didn't get bonus mana income like an elf would, but if you just wanted a frontline in front of your magic users, they were great for that and carried over their damage bonus.
Because that is what orcs DO and ARE.
raven pebble
lets repeat the same sound bytes at each other nonstop
if those sound bytes worked, people would've been already convinced, so find new ones ;d
pine glacier
if those sound bytes worked, people would've been already convinced, so find ne...
i was replying to a sound byte
tell your buddy that lmao
or give me your rebuttal sound byte lets have it
crisp turret
I want my industrial humans to be different from my industrial dwarfs, both having the exact same lineup will not cut it compared with what we had
raven pebble
my argument with the culture thing is that it's basically impossible for halflings to have the same culture as an orc
pine glacier
I want my industrial humans to be different from my industrial dwarfs, both havi...
you can pick different traits for each
pine glacier
my argument with the culture thing is that it's basically impossible for halflin...
untrue and who cares
modest cipher
they will develop differently over the course of the game from tomes and affinity tree (as well as starting perks, which have bigger effects this time)
raven pebble
untrue and who cares
how is it untrue?
modest cipher
so unless you pick the same things each game they'll become pretty different factions
raven pebble
because physiology is a huge part of how a species congregates and creates social structures ;d
pine glacier
have we seen how multiple sapient species develop?
raven pebble
no, but we have seen the same one develop different cultures based on their circumstances
pine glacier
they are also all humanoid and would have a pretty close common ancestor
pine glacier
no, but we have seen the same one develop different cultures based on their circ...
wow so maybe a halfling can be like 20 different things no way
raven pebble
and being a 1 meter tall halfing isn't the same circumstance as a 3 meter orc
fossil berry
have we seen how multiple sapient species develop?
No, differences are so important we see deifferences in the SAME species. Like how high we make the doors in our homes.
pine glacier
see above
raven pebble
they can develop a lot of things, but not the same things
crisp turret
you can pick different traits for each
My playstyle favors strong and experienced, I could choose a human dread and dwarf dread and have a similar playstyle with refreshing variations
With forms I can’t differentiate humans and dwarfs on the chosen playstyle
pine glacier
With forms I can’t differentiate humans and dwarfs on the chosen playstyle
no you'll jsut have to pick different traits that sound humany and dwarfy
i believe in your intelligence
you can do it
crisp turret
No , you don’t really believe that but that is not the point, “10% more attack” will not replace “ dread frostings get a freezing tank”
modest cipher
in the short term, I expect the numerous customization options over the course of the game to make up for this
in the longer term, one or two unique units per form might be nice
(maybe one that fits the fantasy stereotype and one a little more alternative and offbeat?)
violet cedar
The freeze tank wasn't really an upgrade for frostlings iirc. And as I said at the time, technology is not defined by what it's makers can do anyway but by what they can't. A culture that can run 100mph doesn't invent the car.
crisp turret
Stereotype fitting UU are for culture/tomes that fit the form stereotypes, for the outstanding combinations Triumph could flex their creativity
pine glacier
No , you don’t really believe that but that is not the point, “10% more attack” ...
i do!
and you just need to find the trait that gets you a freeze tank, then combine that with the frostling form
ez pz
tacit fox
also, frog people and fire tomes
I have no idea where the trope started, but salamanders are wet lizards irl who have somehow become stock fire elementals in fantasy settings.
violet cedar
Salamanders can have striking red & black colouration and like to hide in things like dry firewood. This habit serves the salamander well enough in nature, where fallen wood attracts insects and provides shelter, but pretty badly in human settlements where people like to throw their wood into the fires. But a salamander is very wet and hardy for it's small size, so when disaster strikes it can sometimes survive by racing out of the flames. To the medieval mind, in which spontaneous generation of maggots from meat and bees from pollen was the scientific consensus, though not without detractors, this flame patterned lizard emerging from the fire pits was clearly a creature born of the flames.
magic pasture
I think this whole thread is just bizzare. Everyone here can get what they want at the same time, people who want strong Orks and magical elves can, and those that want barbarian halflings and seafaring moles can too. None of your choices impact others and none of there choices impact you, so why does it matter?
tacit fox
Perhaps it's not a matter of people being upset by options for or against, but thinking Age of Wonders should or should not have taken the step it has taken.
You know, a change. Why change this? Why not change it?
Is 22 years old in video game series years?
pure sparrow
yes
main cloud
Is 22 years old in video game series years?
Can you rephrase this question?
tacit fox
Would you consider 22 years to be an old video game series, or would you reserve that for even older things like civilization and kings bounty which are like 30?
tacit fox
Me too, and from that I can understand why people might think. "It shouldn't change, it's worked for 22 years, I hope you don't break it." or "It's taking too long to change, it's like the same game, I don't want to get bored."
I get the passion.
pine glacier
the big gap between shadow magic and 3 sets a pretty good sense of "eras" to the series
tacit fox
Absolutely.
main cloud
Honestly, planetfall felt like a much bigger jump in design direction than 3
3 felt like a modernized(in a good way) shadow magic. Planetfall felt like an evolution of the series.
tacit fox
Just about every game mechanic was changed in some way. But what was most striking to me was how different each race would play, especially by the time Star Kings rolled around.
Until recently your economy wasn't very largely affected by your pre game choices.
And it was mostly specialist units with wacky gimmicks that set everything apart. Just about everything has special abilities in Planetfall.
It's really intense, one of the most diverse strategy games I have ever played.
The racial governance stuff in AoW3 was great, but it took too long to roll around and really make things crazy, I found.
pine glacier
lets not pretend pf didn't go through heavy post-release updates too
no one talks about the original planetfall economy
sonic trellis
Yeah, the old, very unintuitive sector exploit system
bold thicket
I've always liked sectors in PF, but there have definitely been a lot of improvements to it. Hope AoW4 improves on them even more
formal lodge
no one talks about the original planetfall economy
What are you talking about, there was no post release problems with the PF economy 🤫
ornate kestrel
For me the biggest concern is how this will impact the uniqueness of the factions in game. Specifically, the lack of unique species units. IE It's much harder to feel like I am playing mole people without giant mole units that can tunnel through the ground, Or tigrans without more catlike units and the sphinx, etc. Which means that they likely will not exist, thus leading to what I fear will be far less uniqueness in play.
Can an insectoid faction like the kirko from planetfall or their AOW:SM cousins exist as a " form"? I can't imagine units like the barrager or ravenous working for all "forms". Hopefully I am wrong and the game still feels unique for each faction/culture.
crisp turret
Tigrans lost its Sphinix that is for sure, Forms really gimp the less humanoid races
pure sparrow
What do you mean tigrans lost the sphinx how?
formal lodge
Tigrans lost its Sphinix that is for sure, Forms really gimp the less humanoid r...
But none of the forms get form specific units...
ornate kestrel
Baaically, if the forms have to all work with all faction units, any unit that is tied to one specific species can't really exist.
formal lodge
Ung, what you're actually saying is that non-humanoid units don't work well with Cultures, because you can't, for example have a form influenced Sphinx.
main cloud
Just transform your tigrans to have wings. Now they're all sphinxes!
pure sparrow
I still don't get it don't tigrans still get sphinxes no matter what since they are part of the racial units?
formal lodge
In Aow3.
Did you watch the release video? Forms, i.e Tigerans, Humans, Goblins, don't get racial units, they get units from the Cultures and Tomes.
And those units, idk, a Barbarian, will be of the form you took.
pure sparrow
I did but I don't know why I forgot, thank you for telling me
proud nest
For me the biggest concern is how this will impact the uniqueness of the faction...
I think this is a valid concern, and I can understand that fans of the earlier AoW-games will miss some of the unique units.
However, this does not mean AoW4 will be devoid of unique units! Those unique units will just be tied to your faction's culture and tomes, and even maybe traits and other things. Does the movement of unique units from race to culture and tomes make the game objectively worse? I don't think so.
pure sparrow
I mean we get so many new cultures and already 54 tomes and to be honest this number will very likely increase with new dlcs or updates so it just means that there will be new thing after new thing
ornate kestrel
The problem that I am concerned about with that is that it limits the types of unique units that can exist, making them less unique. I found the crazy off the wall units more interesting, and I fear that this game will have less of them because they are constrained to needing to make sense for all the forms.
I am still hopeful that I am wrong and they are able to make the units unique enough.
proud nest
I'd even dare to say we will get more unique units this way, not less
pure sparrow
you dare
violet cedar
The mention of the Sphinx and tigrans reminds me of a longstanding question of mine: would any of you ride a horse with a human face? That's always what the tiger mounts brought to mind.
proud nest
The problem that I am concerned about with that is that it limits the types of u...
Unique units can make sense for all forms - or none. A unique dragon or golem etc can fit in with any form. All your units don't need to come from the populace of your cities.
ornate kestrel
True, and that might be what they are planning. I expect that most of the units will still be humanoid and using the forms though, just to make it feel like the form picked is the main species of that faction, (as opposed to dragons or golems, etc)
Hopefully we will learn more about how they are implementing the forms in tomorrow's dev diary.
proud nest
The mention of the Sphinx and tigrans reminds me of a longstanding question of m...
Depends on the face, I guess 😆
sonic trellis
imagine human, toad and etc. sphinxes
just take the regular tigran sphinx and replace the cat face with a human or some other form
or imagine a fish unit for the toads, and the human version of that gets a human face, like in that game Seaman
proud nest
just take the regular tigran sphinx and replace the cat face with a human or som...
How did I not think of this before
Give me toad sphinx
sonic trellis
👌
silver crest
mtg does human faced sphinxes, and theyre cool af
ivory raft
Wait, isn't a "human-faced sphinx" just a... sphinx?
sonic trellis
yeah most sphinxes are human faced
I think the AoW2/SM Sphinx is too
the version 3 is the one that has a cat face
raven pebble
I doubt sphinxes are gone, they are probably tied to a tome (most likely tome of the sands) and everyone can get them, but they have the same appearance for every race
I suspect the units we get from tomes replace the racial uniques
or are intended to replace them
tbh, I'd be very surprised if they don't backpedal on this by the end of the development cycle, especially with DLCs and such
this is literally what happened in AoW3 when people complained the races are too same-y and they gave us racial governance
I also doubt anyone at Triumph really wanted the unique racial units gone, I think it's because they would be exponentially more labor than any other unit to make work with the transformations
here's what I predict will happen - if AoW4 sells well, they'll gradually (or al at once with a DLC, who knows) add unique racial units because they'll have more time to work on them and have them fit the transformations
but if it's underperfoming, we'll get the Planetfall level of updates, i.e. very basic and not enough to actually fix the glaring faults with the game ;d
and they'll keep up the narrative of how they wanted everyone to be everything
silver crest
did you not see the t-rex patch that changed everything?
raven pebble
did it add a proper campaign that isn't just ugly as sin RMGs with pre-set objectives? No. Did it start supporting handcrafted scenarios? No. Did it make melee at least a little bit viable? No. Did it undo the butchering of heroes' inventories? No. Did it make anomalies, grail, cosmic happenings etc. meaningful? No. Did it give us more interesting sectors and landmarks? No. Did it fix gamebreaking bugs like the endless end turn or endless animation freeze in combat? No.
so I don't see how it changed everything ;d
PF's update cycle was just trying to re-add stuff from AoW3 that was taken out for no reason and it didn't even do a very good job at that
but hey, at least the factions were more distinct
silver crest
pine glacier
melee is and has always been viable in pf
modest cipher
For me the biggest concern is how this will impact the uniqueness of the faction...
well the orcs lost the glutton in 3 but it was moved to the Nagas. Monster units like that can show up elsewhere
(granted, 3's dwelling stuff is pretty inpractical to actually use)
pine glacier
anomalies are extremely valuable
modest cipher
yeah this is a pretty silly list
some of the cosmic happenings are huge, can completely change a game (like the one that basically blinds your units' overworld vision?). part of me thinks they should be off in MP cause they can upend your strategy but they're fun so I'd rather not
pine glacier
they overhauled the economy and added the combat cards mechanic. then they updated combat cards so you can choose if they apply to vs empires or vs site defenders separately.
modest cipher
the campaign part and a couple of the bugs are fair
melee is definitely useful, I find people who say it sucks don't really understand the game mechanics
pine glacier
they did not fix the problems some dude named lacrymas specifically had so of course they didn't fix anything at all, not catering to that guy's conception of what the problems were
modest cipher
they added additional starting and long-term abilities to every race and reworked the society tech tree multiple times
modest cipher
also residential sectors
proud nest
So this discussion has boiled down to the problem solely being lack of racial unique units.
pine glacier
i think that is merely a new front in the war
proud nest
I guess those who think culture UUs and tome UUs are inherently inferior will have to stick to literally every single other fantasy strategy game that exists 😇
sonic trellis
Anyone who thinks melee in Planetfall is weak clearly has not faced massed Lancers with Grounding Harness and Primal Awareness mods.
pine glacier
lancers are kind of ridiculous units, and they even avoid the typical flying weakness of melee
sonic trellis
yep
pine glacier
44 damage raw with no mods or bonuses is so insane
sonic trellis
pretty much
some people be like "oh but Amazons are not a melee faction, Huntresses, Biomancers and Arborians do not like it when you get close and are designed with abilities to keep you away"
and to that I say laughs in Lancers
pine glacier
huntresses want to be kinda close tho
and they're custom made for moving in aggressively
the 2 support units do indeed want to stay far away though (weird)
even their artillery prefers to be up close lmao
upper axle
Melee sucks? How about Dvar Echo Walkers? Well, any EWs but Dvar really take the cake
Amazon Echo Walkers too
harsh cape
I think the game kinda gives you a bad first impression of melee since a lot of the Tier 1 Melee units don't have the mobility tools to make it work in a ranged environment
early secret tech melee or the T3 melee upgraded with mods works fine (or too well in Oathbound case)
sonic trellis
or T2 racial melee in the Amazon and Syndicate's case
pine glacier
scavengers rule 😠
sonic trellis
though for Syndicate, Enforcers are kind of glass fists against enemy melee because of their lack of armor mods
pine glacier
honestly frenzied aren't too bad. they can't carry an army or nothing but you get a lot of health points out of that energy
but yeah a new player could easily get the wrong impression about melee using them
sonic trellis
yeah they're spongy for a T1 but their ranged secondary sucks for dealing with air and no native stagger res means closing in and getting that triple melee attack in is an uphill battle for them
pine glacier
yeah they're not damage dealers, they're mobile walls for you to deploy on the battlefield
sonic trellis
pretty much
pine glacier
if they're getting shot they're doing their job. if they get hits in that's a nice bonus
raven pebble
power-wise, melee can be pretty good
in some circumstances at least
void assembly f.e. lets you stack lots of evasion, stagger resistance, life steal, teleport, kinetic res debuff and that's early on, later you get things like damage reflection and auto resurrection
but that's only when it's seen in a vacuum, when it comes to actually playing the game there are a lot of issues related to melee
It just exacerbates a lot of bad stuff about the game: unwieldy ui/unit control, clunky and unsatisfying animation/combat feel, being overly reliant on some form of overused "put units in a ball for a buff" which is then easily punished by gazilion aoe everyone has and so on.
pine glacier
ah yes, everything we've been saying is pure theory and speculation, not based on concrete experience playing the game
raven pebble
and while it's good when it works, you'll always encounter lots of matchups where it's completely useless, meanwhile ranged is just always good and reliable.
sonic trellis
the only issue with Amazon melee is the one the enemy has to put up with when they've got Lancers and T-Rexes locking their entire battle line in melee overwatch
raven pebble
multiple attacks per turn with ranged weapons >>> everything else
pine glacier
if you build melee without a contingency you'll have problems yeah. that's the tradeoff for how dominating properly spec'd melee is vs ground troops
pine glacier
multiple attacks per turn with ranged weapons >>> everything else
action economy is best
sonic trellis
also spreading your units out enough that most of the enemy AoE only hits two units at best is surprisingly not that difficult, even in 3v3 city fights
raven pebble
not if you want to buff them with the little ball buffs ;d
pine glacier
i'm not sure what ball buffs are being referred to that open you up to aoe, other than enforcer buffs
sonic trellis
which I don't over-rely on
modest cipher
but that's only when it's seen in a vacuum, when it comes to actually playing th...
melee 1) ignores evasion, 2) always staggers, 3) has auto-overwatch even in defense mode
harsh cape
prolly swarm shield
pine glacier
kirko melee gets hidden buffs but they can like, walk away after that
sonic trellis
melee 1) ignores evasion, 2) always staggers, 3) has auto-overwatch even in defe...
and also even when sprinting into the red
modest cipher
that makes it good at the baseline even before we get to particular units
pine glacier
prolly swarm shield
you only need 1 buddy for this
raven pebble
i'm not sure what ball buffs are being referred to that open you up to aoe, othe...
the buffs that are 1 hex and all the hexes around it
sonic trellis
you can even pair a flier and a ground unit for Kirko swarm shield to kick in
pine glacier
the buffs that are 1 hex and all the hexes around it
which ones force you to remain in the ball until end of turn
modest cipher
he's thinking of Kirko mostly
harsh cape
I can think of operation point buffs with 1 hex or 1 unit + Chain
pine glacier
i can only think of enforcers off of the top of my head
harsh cape
aegis tank , syndicate enforcer, paladin protector
pine glacier
he's thinking of Kirko mostly
you can walk away after the buff and not get hit by aoe as kirko
sonic trellis
Amazon do not need aura buffs
they just run in with 18 Lancers and park right next to all your Troopers
raven pebble
which ones force you to remain in the ball until end of turn
literally the first vanguard operation, the one that gives you a stationary "turret" that heals the units around it and provides camo
pine glacier
literally the first vanguard operation, the one that gives you a stationary "tur...
vanguard are not a melee faction lmfao
also that op kinda sucks ngl. it's not bad but pretty niche, weird to bring up in an argument like this
raven pebble
we are talking about buffs that work like a ball ;d
pine glacier
it's pretty plainly for healing your ranged units behind cover that will be more stationary
harsh cape
if i wanted to talk about things that suck in planetfall I'd pick the snipers over the melee
pine glacier
we are talking about buffs that work like a ball ;d
...in the context of melee units
?????
come on man i know you can follow a conversation
you started this conversation
don't play dumb you're better than that
pine glacier
if i wanted to talk about things that suck in planetfall I'd pick the snipers ov...
the snipers are all very good
but you either need stagger resistance on them or a weirdly large number of them, which is kind of a pain
sonic trellis
Snipers are good but like melee, stagger resist is a huge necessity on them
modest cipher
Hidden need it less cause of Agile Overwatch and the teleport
harsh cape
If I'm playing the 3 relevant faction as non Celestian I probbably nevver build them lol
sonic trellis
Hidden need it less cause of Agile Overwatch and the teleport
yeah and flanker, which also affects their snap shot
Kir'ko are secretly the primary long-ranged sniper faction, and Amazon are not-so secretly the primary melee faction
modest cipher
vorpals can get by without stagger resist (blind on their snap shot helps) but it is very nice to have
one thing I will admit is that PF doesn't do a great job explaining some of its mechanics
like none of the baseline reasons melee is good are in the tutorial IIRC
and it's not immediately obvious why staggers are so important
harsh cape
I'm so lazy playing Kirko as Frenzied + Engulfer for earlygame
sonic trellis
Tutorial was not updated to keep up with the patches, I think
so nothing explaining that melee ignores most forms of evasion (apart from the one on "Advanced" animal marauders, which kind of feels like an oversight)
modest cipher
even for the base game it's pretty light
so much that I think they hired a youtuber to make proper tutorial videos?
low kestrel
some people be like "oh but Amazons are not a melee faction, Huntresses, Biomanc...
The real beauty of PF races was that you had 2 distinct paths per race, before you added anything else, like secret techs etc.
It was like getting 2 races in one.
And then you could mix and match.
Amazon's with laser tree, or bio tree etc.
It was beautiful. 🙂 and I didn't even like playing Amazons.
sonic trellis
indeed
opal pawn
I feel that if they wanted to go in this direction they should have created races that dont have as much baggage. I dislike this change but I trust that the devs know better than me.
raven pebble
That's quite a lot of trust ;d
pure sparrow
I wouldn't say a lot they haven't disappointed me with AOW3 at all it was too much fun and these people really seem dedicated to their work on this game if they say this is how its going to be then I trust them
fossil berry
They're good at what they do, but nobody is flawless. And some changes are a gamble.
pure sparrow
This change is defintely a gamble but the more we know later on it could change into a definite good idea
fossil berry
Or a definite bad one, which is what I'm betting on.
If it plays the way I expect it does, I'll make a mod making forms have effects.
pure sparrow
Or a definite bad one, which is what I'm betting on.
Quite pessimistic
fossil berry
pure sparrow
🐟
raven pebble
It's also worth pointing out that perhaps Paradox have a lot of say in how the game gets developed
And PF already had a lot of their influence
fossil berry
Definitely not "a lot". They're talking shop, of course, but it's really Triumph making the game design decisions.
They bought Triumph because of AoW being a successful series. Taking away their freedom to make decisions isn't conductive to benfitting from that.
raven pebble
They bought Triumph *because* of AoW being a successful series. Taking away thei...
One would think so, but that's not the case ;d
fossil berry
...and what's your source for that?
Mine is having talked to the actual developers during PF announcement. And having drinks in a bar with them afterwards.
Might have been a few years, but things like PF's expansions make me believe that no, Triumph is still in charge there.
proud nest
Mine is having talked to the actual developers during PF announcement. And havin...
Cool that you've actually been able to talk to them in person!
fossil berry
Yeah, was pretty cool. They're chill guys.
raven pebble
...and what's your source for that?
The history of gaming ;d
proud nest
The history of gaming ;d
AKA pure speculation
fossil berry
Ah, so you pulled it out of your ass. Well, glad to know that I can ignore you on this.
proud nest
I saw a suggestion in this thread 1-2 days ago about there being a gameplay option to turn on/off custom forms.
I think that's still the most reasonable suggestion to come out of this thread
fossil berry
How is that different from current implementation, though?
It's just a nothing burger to placate people who want form to mean something.
proud nest
But isn't this whole thing a "nothing burger"?
Since no one is forcing forms with different traits into anyone's game
fossil berry
Yeah, forms are a nothing burger already, that's exactly the problem.
proud nest
The option merely exists for those who would like it
Why is that a problem though? Why is it so important that cosmetic appearance of your faction translate directly into numbers and abilities?
Or rather, why must it be hard-coded?
(If you've covered this already earlier in this thread, you can just link that comment no worries)
fossil berry
It's more effort to look it up than to explain again.
IMO, it's about making choices have meaning. I loved different races in each AoW for different reasons, and that grows from how they play. But 4 is threatening to make them all play the same. Why would I grow to like a race? There's no way to be pleasantly surprised.
But lets look on the side of Customization. Why is customization not always a good thing?
Do you want to customize every single spell in every single tome?
Do you want to customize the alignment consequences of migrating cities (which is just genocide+replacement with your own people, which I think is pretty evil)
No, you don't. Because it'd make the tomes the same even if the graphics are different.
proud nest
Well, i think it's important to consider here that all the races do have specific traits that make them play differently, given that you as a player do not actively change them while making new factions.
fossil berry
And the same argument could be applied to tome or alignment consequences.
proud nest
Also, while the classical fantasy concept of "races" has changed, the choice you are looking for has magrated to the choice of culture
fossil berry
Having defaults doesn't make them any less meaningless.
proud nest
So you think any aspect of the game that can be changed by a player is meaningless?
It must be hard-coded to have "meaning"?
fossil berry
Hardcoded, or a consequence of other choices, yes.
So picking toads as a consequence that they can all swim but are weak to frost, or something.
proud nest
Well, then the meaningful choices you like so much have just been moved within the game. Before, they were tied to race and class. Now, they're tied to traits, culture and tomes.
The only difference now is the player has more power over the cosmetic choices, which to some are meaningful. Even if you think they are not.
fossil berry
And I don't see why they should be restricted away from form.
proud nest
Because some players might like the look of toads, but wouldn't like the strategy implications of the standard traits.
And some players are able to imagine non-aquatic toads with different elemental affinities in the context of other worlds.
sonic trellis
well in 3 and PF, they just had to live with those implications, or absorb other races' cities
proud nest
I, for one, have no problem imagining fire-toads or venomous barbarian toads
I very much appreciate the ability to play such factions
fossil berry
Thing is that the shape of RL toads is very much an environmental adaptation to the terrain they live in. I.E., aquatic.
proud nest
Good thing the setting isn't RL then
fossil berry
So why can't my toads have advantages when I use them in an aquatic environment?
proud nest
They can. You choose the appropriate traits
The only difference is it's your choice in this game
fossil berry
But I could do that with any other race as well. So the toads don't really have an advantage.
proud nest
So the way they have designed this game, toads will be as realistic as possible on your screen, which it seems you will enjoy. On my screen, there will be different fantasy toads, which I will enjoy.
I call that a win-win
proud nest
But I could do that with any other race as well. So the toads don't really have ...
The toads have that advantage if you choose that they do
You have control over all the other factions that take part in your game
The game will not generate random factions if you don't want it to, it will stick to pre-built ones