New Player Feedback / Wish List After Demo

[rotund current]

Geez I didn't think It'd end up this long... Started writing feedback and about what I hoped to see in the game and here I am ~24 pages later. I don't know if anyone truly has the time to go through it all, so I guess the main things I was hoping to see from the wish list are in section 3.3.X (melee weapons) and how they work into section 3.4.I (PvE Boss Battles).

Here's the link to published google doc since discord just wasn't gonna work for the length: LINK

Here's a VOD relevant to those sections: VOD

It'd be awesome if a lot of the other stuff is considered too, but melee weapons and battles that synergize with grapple movement speed and transition in and out of gun play are the big wishes.

Looking forward to games release and to see what herald battles are like.

[devout wind]

One thing I know I'd want to see for sure in the finished game is melee weapons. A decent variety of them and a fleshed out moveset/use case for each would be a huge bonus, but anything that's more consistent and less annoying to use than the Energy Saw would scratch the itch.
I'd also like to see more moving parts for the Island Creator, like pistons that could move the boulders around.

[rotund current]

For me the BIG thing about suggesting melee weapons is that they should damage scale with player speed and air time. Sure, let them work ok while just running around on the ground, but their real damage should come from combining strikes with highspeed movement granted by the grapple or other devices (tried to make hammers/clubs synergize with hypothetical hoverboard... which is still grapple granting the initial momentum).

I tried to come up with 3 functionally different ways that could be achieved but beyond swords/blades the other 2 were mostly just off the cuff. So kind of want to hear what other people can come up with. In a way, the systems I suggested are sort of continuations of the training people would get from using the saw and mining tool; timing and aim based.

All that said, I still think melee weapons could truly shine and amplify the already amazing grapple system if PvE boss mobs, including heralds, encouraged the use of high damage melee. Have armor plating only vulnerable to melee damage above a certain threshold, which when cracked exposes weak spots for guns to be able to damage. I explain it all in more detail, including segmented health bars in the document, but understand if people aren't going to try find it in 24 pages. It's 3.4.I.a (Battles, PvE Battles (ground based), Expose).

In fact... you could also have said armor plating as a barrier to access areas in the environment. Like covering the entrance to puzzle rooms or vaults etc.

[devout wind]

Physics-based melee would be incredibly entertaining, and satisfying to use.

[vapid holly]

I think the tutorial could use some adjustment. I spent a large part of the demo snooping in Twitch streams and helping the streamers understand what to do, because many of them were lost or confused.

[rotund current]

Do you remember specifically what you saw them getting stuck on?
In the google doc I think i covered:

1. A section in the tutorial that requires people to use grapple wire shortening during a swing to accelerate and clear a gap.
2. More explicit instruction during the electric wire puzzle that you can extend the wire while walking using ctrl or release the grapple clutch to be able to reach all the pylons.
3. During ship building, a requirement to remove a panel with the prism so people learn how to make holes in the upper deck for getting into the hull. (personally got stuck on this and only learned it was even possible when a visitor did it without me looking, first time I tried doing it myself I resorted to using the saw to destroy the panel)... Might also want something that shows how to do half panels and orient them.

Probably more useful for devs to be specific. Also vets tend to forget what mechanics presented sticking points/learning curve cause it's become so obvious and second nature to them.

[vapid holly]

Several had no idea what metal ores looked like. They tried to mine metal from structures. I had to specifically describe to them that they were rocks with brown bits sticking out of them. Several tried mining burning coral from the coral objects and I had to explain that you could only pick up the loose pieces from the ground.

Many did not understand the game's hint about some creatures having atlas dust and did not know they needed to kill the floating shrimp to get it. They often had trouble trying to figure out what to do with the dust.

Ship building in general was very hard for them to understand without help. Same with placement controls. Many got lost on the difference between crafting and building and kept trying to craft buildables. One in particular spent forever trying to get data disks in hopes of unlocking a chest before I guided them to the build menu.

A lot of them completely forgot where data disks came from as the game progressed. They remembered as soon as I told them though.

Only one streamer noticed the server settings are automatically set to public. I joined one person's server (they used their twitch for a world name) and when they saw me they thought I was an NPC. They were absolutely flabbergasted to learn they were hosting a public server.

Many of them were trying and failing to target a specific object and didn't realize they needed to use the scroll wheel rather than look at it.

Many didn't notice the message about the belt and didn't know to store valuables there.

A couple tried gliding immediately after crafting the glider, not realizing they needed to equip it.

Grappling in general was confusing, and a couple thought they had to use space bar in order to release the grapple.

Several didn't know to hold crouch in order to drop floors in the shipyard.

Having to chop bodies with the energy saw was unintuitive. People were killing things early on with no way to know how to harvest them until much later in the tutorial.

There were lots more, but those are the things that came to mind. Streamers did really enjoy the game, but only when they weren't lost.

[rotund current]

I think with the scrolling, to target a specific object, the list order probably should prioritize what the reticule is closest to anyways. Though even then, maybe something to teach scrolling to select should be implemented.

Good list though. A decent amount might just be teething and taking some time to read the UI more thoroughly?

[vapid holly]

I do think part of it may be that the tutorial can be very wordy at times, and after a while people get overloaded and begin to just skim the instructions so they miss important bits contained in a larger paragraph.

[rotund current]

I think auto public could be ok to encourage coop, but probably should have a prompt with a "dont show again" box, warning ppl before they start the world. Will be safer if/when worlds are given more options and maybe turn on by default stuff like, no pvp, no opening chests / solving puzzles for visitors, no withdrawing from storage made by world owner etc...

[vapid holly]

I think it just needs to be made more obvious as an option. One streamer I watched was just a super toxic dude talking shit about Bossa and the game. He decided he wanted to ruin the game for everyone else, so he started world hopping to raid other peoples chests (placed right be the tutorial ark, of course), destroying ships, scanning data towers (to make it so the other player couldn't), and killing other noobs. He was apparently an active PVPer back in WA and so had some good PVP skills despite only having the starter pistol and was able to really mess some people up. I ended up joining a server he was griefing and fighting him with better guns. Got him to the point where I was just repeatedly spawn killing him so when his game crashed he was frustrated enough to just quit the game (talking shit the whole way).

I think newbies especially should have a warning about publically hosting. Or, at least, players joining a world should at least be randomly spawned at a an ark outside the tutorial island so that they'd have to build a ship in order to get to the newbie hosting the server. Then there'd be a bit more effort required and they'd lose something if the owner closed the server on them.

[rotund current]

In the document I suggested that player made bases, among other things, act as the portal in and out of worlds. Also that base attached shipyards eventually replace the field placed shipyards and act as portals for people's ships between worlds (as long as they are sufficiently sized for incoming/outgoing ships). Then the world owner can lock doors and storage etc in their own base restricting visiting players to how much they can access. This was mainly to facilitate the exchange of specialized services so that, for instance; a high level cook could be restricted to a cooking room, or if you were wanting to trade, only give them access to trade room etc. If you then trust them, you can unlock things.

Perhaps this could help to alleviate some of the inherent vulnerability of newbs? Make it so starting ark can only do up to friends only or invite only, then bases is what allows up to full public setting. That way they'd have to familiarize themself with the game somewhat before public access was possible for their world.

[vapid holly]

That's a neat mechanic, but I'm not a fan of island-bound bases. WA was amazing because you DIDN'T have ties to a stationary base. Everything you had was on your skyship and you were free to explore the world without being drawn back to a home location. I personally think stationary bases were the worst addition to Last Oasis because it went against the entire grain of the game (both the mechanics and the lore) and turned the game into basically Rust, just with walkers. I would be down to have players set certain arks as spawns so they can choose where joining players show up though.

[keen island]

I know a lot have brought this up but I miss the grapple being on the right mouse button. Not sure how useful weapon aim really is. Had to adjust a bit using “Q” as I don’t have a mouse with a side mouse button.

[tidal heart]

I ended up using middle mouse for grapple. That way i can still strafe while aiming and grappling

[rotund current]

Pretty sure all the things involved here were changeable keybinds. Like you had the option to make grapple rmb and make aim some button you were unlikely to press.

[keen island]

Are you talking Worlds Adrift or Lost Skies? I haven’t been able to play the actual Lost Skies game yet, just explore around in Island Creator. That would be great if you can rebind the keys.

[rotund current]

hum, what was it like to loose you skyship with everything on it? Without having played WA, the closest game I can relate the demo to was Subnautica... but in the sky, and you could fight back (effectively). There wasn't any herald battle in demo but loosing a cyclops in Subnautica was generally a re-load last save moment for me.
One of the considerations for suggesting bases was that they behave as mass storage and another location to put your utility stuff. This way players wouldn't have all their time invested in an airship that they probably should be willing to loose. Maybe the wreckage ball and reconstruction thing circumvents this, though admittedly me and my friends experience of this was it locking up both our games.
Aside from providing a way to avoid loosing all your utility. Bases would also allow you to focus your airship on combat more freely and not have utility stations + storage adding to weight and reducing mobility. Although the option should still be there.
Another thing I was hoping for from bases was to double as quick travel stations (but on a cool down). That way, going back to join and help newbs in previous zones and collect earlier level data disks for yourself in the process wouldn't be such a headache.
Another function of bases were to act as NPC housing terraria style, for a PvE bounty npc for PvE boss battles (data disk/progression materials source), PvE trader to do trading between PvE traders in other zones (another data disk source), and a PvP bounty NPC to teleport you and your ship into level appropriate pvp instances which would hopefully be easier and cheaper to host for Bossa but not have the issue of peer to peer host advantage.
The last thing was to have bases be a spot to cultivate / harvest progression materials beyond the gathering stage of the game from rarely occurring, zone appropriate, progression appropriate plots.

To do all that bases just seemed sorta a necessary inclusion and a likely expectation given the subnautica similarities.

[rotund current]

oh Lost Skies, keybinds were all adjustable in demo iirc.

[keen island]

Nice thanks!

[keen island]

I’m not sure about bases as the aim of the game is to progress through the islands and getting back to a base would take more and more time as you progressed deeper into the game.
What I would like to see is a docking mechanism for large bulky freighter type ships that can dock a smaller more maneuverable attack ship to it. That way in boss battles you aren’t risking your main base ship.

I suppose you could have a teleport mechanism where you can teleport between your base and ship too if you wanted.

[rotund current]

well, hence the fast travel as a secondary function of shipyards attached to bases. Then neither is obsolete. You need an air ship, and a base to go instantly back and forth between other bases. Again the reasoning here is to help people return to earlier zones and coop with players there, while simultaneously farming earlier level data disks for themselves. Unless there is another way to incentivise verterans to return to earlier zones and coop with newbs?

The base attached shipyard is like a stargate type thing that works for the ship.

[keen island]

Couldn’t tell from the gameplay videos I’ve seen but is there an option to open sails from the helm? I know the brake closes sails but if not I think there should be a button to open sails too instead of having to manually select each one.

Reading through your Google doc @rotund current great feedback! Hope the devs take the time to go through it.

[rotund current]

there is not, and yeah i agree and it's also in the document. Although the method I suggested was to have a hot bar attached to the helm so that you could maybe do other things too. Like super charge engines, engage temporary shields, drop a boulder on a PvE boss.... etc etc

[keen island]

It would be an easy fix. Just change the brake button to a toggle for sails open/engines on or sails closed/engines off. With some sort of indicator light on the helm to tell if on or off.

Not sure if this is in the game either but there should be a quick way to jump between piloting the helm and manning a turret when interacting with those things on your ship, sort of like the inventory buttons 1-4 at the bottom of your screen except for helm and turrets attached to the ship. Hitting the corresponding number or scrolling the mouse wheel would automatically jump you to whichever attached system. This sort of thing is essential for solo play where you don’t have a crew to man the weapons in a boss fight.

[tidal heart]

I think there will be a item you find eventually that you can add to your ship that will open the sails. (Possible i could have read the post wrong)

[rotund current]

My thought for the helm and hot bar would be something like: while reticule is on helm, push 1, then go to some ship attachment and hover reticule over it, push 1 again; that attachment will now be assigned to 1 on helms hot bar. Higher level helms or higher level piloting allows for more hot bar slots.

[rotund current]

I think the suggestions I made in doc try to lead to a gameplay loop best related to terraria. Go to new biome/zone, harvest resources / higher level blue prints and find NPCs there, use those resources and blueprints to make base to house NPCs and upgrade weapons (melee and ranged), get bounty and use upgraded weapons to take out PvE ground based boss, rewards give ability to upgrade ship combat capabilities, get bounty and take out PvE air based boss, rewards give ability to upgrade shipyard / ship for progressing beyond storm wall and reaching next zone.
All the while, expanded skill tree requires many data disks, so players either co-op with others at their level and specialize to fill in each others shortfalls, or co-op at lower zones to try get enough zone appropriate data disks to cover every specialization themself. The PvE bosses, PvP instanced zones and trade between trader NPCs in the various bases all acting as data disk sources in addition to the data banks found from puzzles and exploration. The data banks refreshing per new player you access a world of so there is the option to farm data banks by joining public worlds of different players.

[vapid holly]

I think it's a mistake to compare WA or LS to Subnautica and especially to Terraria. They're completely different experiences and the gameplay loop is not going to be comparable. I'd say the closest games are Sailwind, Raft, and Last Oasis (prior to season 5 which introduced stationary bases and completely changed the game in a very bad way).

Losing your ship in WA sucked, sure, which was why you were so careful and alert for threats. Battles were tense and the stakes were always high for just that reason. But the thing was, even if you lost your ship, the most valuable thing was something other players couldn't take from you: your knowledge. So even if your ship sank, you still had your ship design, you still knew all the schematics for the parts, you still knew where to find the resources you needed, and you could rebuild. It sucked, but it wasn't game ending.

You could still hide supplies in chests on islands and hope no one found them. Often guilds would have a ship that was a dedicated supply ship that was heavily armored and guarded. But that required a lot of work and coordination and, for the most part, having all your stuff with you on all your travels was part of the balance. It forced you to be aware of what you had with you, make decisions about what was most important, and prevented people from hoarding absolutely massive quantities of resources.

I also think fast travel is something I do not want to see in LS. Again, that's a mechanic for a completely different kind of game. One of the most important facets of WA was the experience of sailing - adjusting to the winds, monitoring fuel and engine overheat, keeping an eye out for players. It seems in LS that flying wildlife will be a consideration as well. The islands aren't the most important part; the act of reaching them is equally part of the gameplay loop.

[keen island]

@rotund current I love everything you said in your document about ship building. Greater freedom in making angular designs is definitely needed.

[rotund current]

I'll try explain my reasoning as to why Subnautica and Terraria stuck out to me as apt comparisons after playing the demo. First, I'm completely ignoring the visual presentation and looking at the underlying mechanics and what you do gameplay wise for progression. Second, without WA and having very little of the combat of airships presented in the demo, the most i've experienced of airships is essentially a mobile base. Airship combat against PvE bosses and maybe smaller mobs is just a proposition from Bossa atm, and since no one has any experience what that will be like (pvp I dont think will play the same) it's difficult to talk much about it.

Subnautica: explore start biome (initial area of tutorial island), scan and get blueprints for sea glide then build sea glide to expand exploration capability (acquiring grapple and glider), explore further to the grassy plateaus and kelp forest scanning and learning other tech (data banks further up island and tech tree), build initial base (initial camp with furnace and cooking pot), get mobile vehicle bay build seamoth (shipyard and initial airship), explore deeper biomes unlocking vehicle upgrades to go even deeper and unlocking cyclops (exploring other islands unlocking ship upgrades allowing you to turn airship into mobile base), continue to explore, scan tech, gather biome specific recourses and upgrade depth capabilities to go to ever deeper biomes (explore zones, get better tech, get zone specific materials, upgrade airship to be capable of going through next storm wall, maybe to fight heralds which then grant storm wall passing capabilities)
Loop being: explore biome, scan tech and gather biome specific resources, use that stuff to increase exploration capability, go to deeper biome, repeat. What subnautica misses in comparison is combat where it pays to fight back/initiate and boss battles, what lost skies misses in comparison is survival mechanics (which eventually becomes busy work in subnautica anyway).

Terraria: no survival mechanics, consumables here grants buffs, progressively explore deeper and/or further biomes unlocking better gear, biome gear lets you fight biome boss, biome boss gear prepares you for next biome. So again it's this progression through biomes (zones), fighting increasingly tougher mobs and bosses with increasingly better gear attached to the specific biomes. Yes there is no airship equivalent here, but i suspect the same sorta progression loop will be applied to airships too, if not being the focal point of gear progression if Bossa doesn't add ground based PvE bosses.

Full disclosure, I've not played any of the games you listed.
I have watched raft. The loop in that game seemed to me to be around initially survival mechanics, then automating resource collection as much as possible so survival was a breeze, then just sorta getting to specific islands to advance the story. iirc there were no boss battles and very little combat.

Last Oasis I only have the steam page to go off, and yeah it seems very similar to worlds adrift, but when you remove the pvp element entirely and go to lost skies, I think things start to become fundamentally different, like your second and third paragraph probably either no longer apply or will be rather different in lost skies.

Sail wind, I briefly watched a streamer play and forgot most of it so I can't really say much on it. Does the gameplay mechanic comparison go beyond just, you sail between islands?

I guess the quetion to ask is... take WA, remove PvP and all the gameplay considerations and elements that come with that... is what is left good enough? What would be the gameplay loop in that case? If it doesn't seem particularly compelling, what do you change or add to make it compelling (aside from the trivial answer of put pvp back in) ?

[vapid holly]

I didn't mean for you to feel like you needed to explain your comparisons. I saw why you made the comnections, I was just trying to communicate why those parallels don't actually run very deep as far as the spirit of the gameplay and so why those games shouldn't be used as models for the gameplay loop.

I mentioned Sailwind not because of its actual gameplay loop (which is basically centered on trade), but because of the emphasis on navigation and ship balance. There are real physics at work, which is very similar to WA where you needed to balance not just the cargo of your ship, but the actual placement of objects like engines in order to keep it from leaning. Both games force you to be conscious of weight, weight distribution, and wind direction and really "feel" your ship, but they obviously differ in that Sailwind is focused on following markets to trade goods and profit and there are no hostile elements in the environment besides storms and the terror of losing your bearings.

I mentioned Last Oasis because of the mobile base facet combined with PvP/PvE style and the knowledge/schematic system. Everything you own travels with you, making it both convenient and risky at all times. And even if you lose everything, you still retain your knowledge which is your most valuable possession. And also, the overall atmosphere of journeying through a vast expanse, with howling winds and humming machinery, felt very similar. However, while you carry everything with you in LO and that makes you value your walker, there's no actual ship design and very limited customizability which was a huge disappointment.

Finally, I mentioned Raft because it involves a very flexible designable travelling base and a heavy emphasis on navigating, exploring islands, puzzling, and weaving together the story of people long gone. Of course the overall feel is very different, the PvE is not comparable, and resource-reliant survival is a constant pressure.

[vapid holly]

Really, no game compares to what WA was and what LS will be. The heart of WA, in my opinion, was the experience and accomplishment of travel, sitting with your thoughts as you monitored the winds and the horizon, being able to design ships and test out your own ideas, getting a "feel" for different build pieces and weight distributions, and discovering places and lore left by people that were completely strange to you yet made you feel incredibly nostalgic and wistful.

I actually like a lot of what I've seen you say and I really appreciate your attention to detail. My comments weren't meant to be any kind of attack because, again, you've had some great insights and observations. I'm just saying that stationary bases and fast travel specifically, while great mechanics in other games, would undermine some very core elements that made WA so unique and memorable. The value of your time in relation to distances traveled, the considerations and sacrifices made for what you carried, and the ever-present sense of vulnerability combined with your ability to always recover from even the greatest loss were all really key aspects to the game. For me, it's important to preserve those things.

Of course LS will be different and I'll play it no matter what. There are many things from WA that LS can't possibly do, and many things LS has already accomplished that WA couldn't do in its time. But from playing the demo I could tell the "heart" of the game was still there, and I'm really happy for that, and now I don't want to see that lost the way I saw it get lost in Last Oasis.

Last note:
I'm not actually a person who enjoys PvP and don't think it has to be a core mechanic to the game. All of these things I say as a player who actively avoids PvP most of the time, so I don't agree that my comments are moot when PvP is removed.

[rotund current]

Ah my bad, I think it's probably best I did explain my comparison to Subnautica and Terraria anyway just in case it wasn't apparent where the similarities lay, or at least where I feel they lay for others keeping tabs.

Would it be fair to say I approach this with an analysis of the underlying mechanical processes the player has to engage with and you're coming at it from the angle of the overall feel the game evokes? I think both is important, subnautica is as highly rated as it is probably in major part due to its presentation and atmosphere.

I did try to give consideration to preserving the sense of exploration by saying any fast travel should only work between places you've already been, since you have to build a base there (didn't like how subnautica teleport gates could put you somewhere new).
I didn't mention it but I also think it should only work between zones, travelling within a zone should be done by airship. Also, long cool downs for fast travel since I was also hoping for a bit of trade between zones in this game... taking on a trade quest might have to disable fast travel entirely.

Honestly I could loose fast travel, just figured it would be a good QOL to help go from the end zones back to the beginning to coop with newbs or friends new to the game. I figured the long journeys back and forth between start and end zones would eventually get tedious once the novelty of airship flying wore off. Which would likely confine vets to the end zones and make start zones seem barren. Am still trying to capture a pseudo mmo experience despite low player count peer to peer hosted instances, like warframe.

As for bases, they are mainly in there to offload content inclusions from airships. Maybe airships should somehow provide every function in the game, or perhaps you can visit hubs to do some functions if they seem out of place for an airship. Sorta just fell on the same solution most other PvE games seem to, but if you think it'll kill LS then yeah, avoid.

Bases also assumed more content would need to be added to keep people engaged. Maybe explorative flying around, solving some puzzles, learning some lore, and occasionally clobbering a flying PvE boss is enough? Could also be a difference in taste. I felt in the demo that once I'd been to an island re-visiting it later felt more tedious than fun and I see that exacerbating as the distances grow... Meanwhile I could grapple between trees just for the fun of it for hours.

Sorta reminds me of Zelda: Wind Waker, the first time exploring the ocean and sailing to new islands evoked an awesome novel feeling, the 5th time having to revisit an island, you bet I was swishing my wand and riding a tornado to as close to the island as possible. Though again an assumption being made: that players would be incentivized to re-visit previous islands at all. Tried to create those incentives through the suggestions in the wishlist section of the doc, but maybe it's not needed.

[keen island]

Ironically Terraria and Subnautica are listed as similar games I’ve played in steam on the Lost Skies page lol.

[vapid holly]

If fast travel were a thing, I'd actually go opposite to you: I think it should only be available within zones, not between them. I also don't agree that players should be actively incentivized to return to earlier zones through mechanics like data disks. Whatever progression can be made from data disks I think should be accomplished by moving forward and exploring new areas, not resweeping old ones. It's like you said just now, revisiting islands you'd already been to in the demo was tedious, not fun.

Are you familiar with the sand wall and the Badlands?

[vapid holly]

Oh, I'll also add that flying felt less satisfying in the demo than it was in WA. I can't quite put my finger on it and will need to watch some old vids to describe exactly why, but it didn't feel right. I'm choosing to assume it's going to improve yet and become a more enjoyable experience.

[rotund current]

Oh 😮 , why intra zone and not inter zone? I went inter option since the suggestion of its inclusion was meant to cut down on long distance travel from end game to beginning zone. If it was intra you'd have to cross a wall, find nearest island, tp to furthest island, cross next wall, repeat for however many zones 😵‍💫 . Inter you could get that done in 1 step, but hopping between islands would still be a sailing trip.

To be clear, it's the travelling aspect of revisiting islands that I found tedious, and find tedious in other games too. Zelda: wind waker again is the example that comes to mind. Getting a new item like power gauntlets allowing the lifting of heavy boulders was fun because you start remembering all the previous places you'd seen those boulders. I'd want to go back to them and see what new secrets or unlocks would be revealed, but If I could fast travel back, I would. Wasn't about to sail to every old location engaging in a process that offered nothing new by the mid-late game.

Whether or not players should be incentivized to return, well again the intent to doing so in my mind was keeping the earlier zones at least a little more populated with helpful vets than they otherwise might be. Also I think its kinda fun when old location offer something new, the zelda games do it all the time. Though admittedly it's often in a more significant way than just item unlocks. This might again be a difference in taste though. In Guild Wars 2 I hang out in a difficult pre-expansion (like 2015) jumping puzzle just to help new comers to the game (also vets tbh) because it's notoriously aggravating. I find helping newbs fun, if there was something to be gained from doing so in a game mechanic sense, that'd be bonus.

Only familiar with sandwall vaguely, I could look em up or watch vids but prob best to leave it to you to bring up the relevant parts. Unless there is a vid you think would be worth watching to help convey a point?

[rotund current]

I see, yeah to me it was almost like time gating with extra steps after the novelty wore off. "I want to go there" point ship in direction, max out accelerator, turn on sails... wait... wait.... wait... lag the f out as the island loaded in... wait... hold shift to stop. I do hope it becomes more engaging as the game develops but in demo it was just kinda ok and functional after the initial excitement for it.

Like where the necessity of travel has felt like it made sense was when I was playing sunless sea. There you had fuel, hunger, sanity, monster/pirate threats along the journey, random events, eerie stuff to stumble across, limited vision range, shifting island layout between games. There was also trade between islands and so all those factors of travel were like the cost of doing trade which you had to try balance with the profit. If fast travel was in that game (which technically there were a few instances iirc, but they weren't convenient), then a lot of those concerns and mechanics that made the sailing between islands have weight would be rendered moot. Right now, island hopping in lost skies doesn't really have any weight to it, it's just a time sink, and your survival isn't in question. Maybe that changes, maybe hopefully that changes. If it does, then the inclusion of fast travel starts to look more incompatible.

[keen island]

This is a small thing but it is a little difficult to scan things on the move like mantas. The scanner should remember the scanned progress if you accidentally break contact with whatever you were scanning. Similar to the Subnautica scanner.

[keen island]

Also I have seen two YouTubers miss the appearance of the Herald because they were scanning the data bank and getting the chests in the room with the drone spawner on tutorial island. This event should trigger as they walk back out the door to that room. Not an event you want to miss.

[rotund current]

lol yeah, I had something like that happen when I joined rand people's public worlds... Even though I spam pinged the cliff edge once I saw them take out the drone spawner, still some missed it.

[rotund current]

Forgot to include this as vid for one of the potential ways you could apply dazing type effects in the immobilization phase of pve ground based battles.... Might actually give a reason to level up stealth, so the boss is less likely to notice you as you set up a trip wire. Then either a friend kites it through the trip wire or you use a throwable / placeable device that makes a noise or something to draw the boss's attention.

obv... it doesn't work as I'd hoped it might in the demo, but it could be made to work 🙏

[frank wyvern]

The one thing that really needs to be improved is the tutorial as well Item descriptions need improvements.

[sturdy tendon]

After playing the demo i think puzzles and the grapple tutorial need some work, lost skies is super lucky to have such a fleshed out system with the grapple, but it never takes advantage of that when it comes to puzzle design and struggles to explain it to new players
puzzles should be where they learn and practice fun and interesting ways to use the grapple, as well as learn the basics
the tutorial where players get the grapple features a weird puzzles where you circle a bunch of pillars, a mechanic that literally isn't used anywhere else in the game outside of puzzles of the same type, instead why not have a puzzle that teaches players how to swing over a pit? and preferably not using the hookshot at first, it's super useful but ive seen players literally ignore swinging because they rightfully see hookshotting as the much easier option and probably dont know how to do anything else
also, i get that the starting grapple doesnt really let you keep momentum when swinging to make it easier for new players, but i feel like that's more a symptom of new players being thrown into using it and not knowing what to do, ideally they start just swinging across a pit or something, no reeling no hookshotting, just the most barebones grappling ever, then add in the reel, then the boost, throw in the hookshot, make it manageable so they dont feel super overwhelmed
even locking some of the more complex stamina based grapple mechanics at first might be a good idea because it really is just too much to get used to all at once

also the beam puzzles are really boring too and kind of just feel like busywork, there's not much puzzle to it it's just kinda tedious
itd be cool if we got some more physics based ones like using an atlas lifter to lift up some small rock and swing it around with the grapple or something, i feel like integrating the grapple with the puzzles more would really make lost skies something special

[rotund current]

I agree with the stuff about incrementally introducing grapple functionality to new players. I think the order you listed is good too.
How would you "take advantage" of the grapple system in puzzle design? You mentioned being able to swing objects, is this to throw them like a hammer throw or something else i'm struggling to envision? Do you have some examples from other games for how this might enable more difficult puzzles?
The closest to taking advantage of the grapple system I felt puzzles got in the demo was the 2 puzzle on the side of vertical walls where you had to swing then reel out or release clutch to make it over the next pylon. I could see more varied configurations of this type of puzzle like swinging in a circle then catching a pylon and it spiraling you around some others, but beyond this, I struggle to imagine puzzles which integrate or necessitate swinging with the grapple.

I also somewhat agree with the busy work statement about most of the pylon puzzles. It's cool from a technical standpoint but there's nothing particularly difficult about figuring out which direction to curve around a pylon so that the grapple wire remains taught when you go to integrate subsequent pylons in a grapple wire web. The most challenging step so far for these puzzles has been noticing and associating the environmental clues to determine the correct pylon order.

I have a suggestion... well it's more a repeat of a suggestion, that might enable making these puzzles a bit more puzzle like:
The ability to detach and pin the grapple wire from the grapple device (creating a line in the environment between 2 objects)

With this, the line can be the agency of the player in puzzles that go beyond; figure out the right order to activate these, or sequentially navigate to these things. Best example of what it could enable is puzzles like flow.

The other thing you could maybe enable the grapple to do, is act like the windings on a transformer. Then you could maybe have rods that you circle around, detach and pin the wire. Now 2 nearby rods could have different ratios of windings and that could act as a ratio step in a puzzle.... A bit gamified but simply all it would do is something like... when a switch is turned on it distributes some energy supply according to the ratio... or you could have it amplify or reduce the strength of something to be more in line with what a real transformer would do. Like maybe a ball inside a glass tube floats up on an air jet when turned on. You need to give the air jet the right strength to get the ball at the right height to block a light beam currently hitting a sensor and keeping a door locked etc...

wires and windings probably also means electromagnets. That could probably enable some puzzle variety too. Like swing around a pole until it becomes a powerful enough magnet to lift up a metal switch on the ground, then use the last of the momentum from your swinging to detach and glide into a now open door way before it closes again from magnet disappearing and switch deactivating.

[rotund current]

I could see a simple version of something like this maybe working as a puzzle with small 3D pieces that you use the grapple to move and then orient into the right positions.

[midnight grove]

Didn't get to read everything so skipping around a bit

3.2 - In WA, and what seems to be in LS, the main way all the ship components, at least, were changed around was based on what they were made with. For example, (I don't remember exact names) if you got Pine wood, it would be better as an overall/generalist for ship components that use wood, but if you used Oak wood then it would have a much higher HP but be heavier (worse for engines and requiring more lift but beefier).

From the demo, you can switch between types of wood or metal when crafting (took me a while to realize that 😅 ) and Pristine Iron ore exists (might be the case for other metals, too), so it is likely that ship components will again be based on the materials you put in, with some being better than others for some tasks, and it isn't crazy to think that instead of item 'levels' you'd instead have items built with different materials being better/worse.

3.3.X-A (Melee Weapons | Reply) - Personally, I think the biggest issue of melee weapons would be using them while grappled. It'd be pretty difficult to hit anything in particular while doing so, so it'd have to be mostly ground combat. Although, while I was thinking about melee weapons, I could totally see an Atlas melee weapon in the form of a Morningstar/ball and chain. It'd be somewhat free floating, and therefore possible to aim, without being a complete nightmare to use.

Other than that, the lance/spears you suggest (basically missile spear/spear with a rocket) sound like they'd be pretty fun.

X.X.X.X (a bunch of numbers) - I don't really like the idea of levelling or having stuff locked behind levels. Having the different stuff as research is pretty fun, but locking stuff behind levels leads too much into a grind (and some areas just generally being better to go to early). We have leveled enemies, but other than them dropping level specific loot I don't think being X level to craft something is super great. (running short on chars)

3.4.II (PvE Air Battles) - I would agree that waiting on how the herald battles go is probably the best option. One idea that came to mind, though, is something like how SoT does their Kraken battles, where you just suddenly get that feeling of dread as you see and hear the boss coming to fight you. For LS, though, having it more like how you said, "... Reaper Leviathan-esque flying serpents that use cloud cover to hunt. That you first notice as a shadow approaching in the clouds/fog/storm. That you hear the roars of long before you ever see it, and that is surprisingly adept at first being noticed when it’s already far too close despite its size" would be really, really cool.

3.4.III (PvP) - I think Bossa is going the route of WA when it comes to PvP type stuff where you pretty much just find people in the world and interact with them in whatever way, whether that is friendly or hostile. I know a few peeps who would definitely host a server (dedi?) with a bunch of player slots for that WA experience so that others could join and just wander around and fight or what have you.

I believe it is already confirmed that we can increase the player slots to pretty much whatever (might be some amount, not sure) but I assume PvP will be pretty much that if your ship dies/gets raided then you have to just deal with it.

Might feel bad, might not, but the game starts off as PvE by default and PvP isn't the main experience anymore so it'll be quite different (multiple groups fighting a Herald, then each other for the spoils type of thing, where before it was just 1v1, now it's more like D&Der bossing where maybe you work together maybe you don't).

3.5 (Island Bases) - Unlikely to happen, but not impossible. The main focus is airships and airbases so I imagine something like this won't happen

3.6 (Procedural/Curated Zones) - Not 100% sure yet, I think it'll be a curated list at random but there's no way to know (unless they said already and I didn't see).

[sturdy tendon]

on the melee weapons thing, i think with the hookshot being in the game it wouldnt be that much of an issue to get in range for that sort of thing, though not using that would be way harder and also more rewarding if it scaled with damage because the hookshot isnt super fast on the upgraded grapple, but honestly i see stuff like that as more of a thing someone mods in and would probably rather them spend time on optimizing the server stuff so you can have a buncha people together

[rotund current]

Material Levels:
They are mainly suggested as a way to increase granularity of game progression while keeping it simple to understand.
With different materials types you probably get ~5-8 and already that's going to start to get confusing if they are the mechanism through which vertical progression is done.
Balsa < Pine < Oak < Jarrah < Cedar < Birch < Maple < Mahogany... trying to learn and remember something like that is gonna be a PITA. I'd much rather different types of wood be for horizontal progression / variance with specialization in certain areas like weight vs health vs wind power vs maneuverability etc.

Material quality could be another way to do vertical progression (junk < workable < normal < decent < good < great < legendary etc.) but I think 1,2,3,4 etc is just way more intuitive and easier to track and pair with the level of the things you are building with your materials. 1,2,3,4 is also infinitely scalable with future dlc if they do that, and doesn't run into that same issue of coming up with more and more words to fit into a hierarchy.

Levels of materials wouldn't themselves increase the stats of what you are building, the level of the thing you are building would do that. Ie level 2 gun does more dmg then level 1 gun of the same type. Level 2 sail has more winder power then level 1 sail of the same type. Though to build a level X gun or sail, would require level X materials.

It looked like in demo, there was already a way to upgrade schematics being developed, but it wasn't implemented yet. So to get better stats on your guns, and ship parts, it already looks like some sort of level system is happening. Materials levels would just make it so that the devs could also implement vertical progression to material acquisition alongside what appears to be the intent to have vertical progression for personal equipment and ship parts. It would allow ppl to specialize into other roles aside from just combat: the gatherers, builders and crafters etc.

[rotund current]

Merit of Levels in general:
Mainly to give longevity to a game. Also personally I enjoy vertical progression and RPG mechanics. It was also to give incentive to specialize and co-op with people to cover each other's short falls, or incentivize people to return to earlier zones and co-op with newbies to level up their own shortfalls.

I'm open to hear how you would keep people engaged without some sort of vertical progression. I am coming at it from a very MMO brained perspective admittedly. Pretty much always those such games keep people playing by introducing new content to progress through. Not always vertical, but pretty much always something is getting leveled.

[rotund current]

Melee Weapons:
The supposed difficulty of use was part of what the video was for. Even without systems specifically implemented to make using melee weapons while grappling an intended user friendly experience... It is already possible in the demo, just needs a little practice. Also in my humble opinion, it was super fun to do.

I also suggested that the main time you need to use them like in the video is against GIANT PvE bosses that you have the option to immobilize to make it even easier. Trying to use them like that against regular drones or mantas would require some serious skill because they are such small targets when moving like that, but that's not the use case. If people want to get good enough to show off being able to 1 shot small targets with scaled up melee damage, then by all means, go get it.

In ground combat scenarios against regular mobs, you could still use them, they would just do way less damage, probably getting to be on par with guns or slightly better in terms of DPS if you use a hook shot to zip past one and hit on the way through. Standing on ground and swinging should be worse DPS than a gun. That way guns remain relevant and melee weapons provide the function they were originally suggested for: A way to synergize with grapple and the games excellent movement and draw it into more aspects of the wider game rather than keep it relegated to traversal.

If melee weapons aren't made to scale with movement speed and air time and/or potentially hover board time / speed (in the case of hammers) and/or quickly moving to a large distance from the target to initiate strikes (in the case of lance), then I don't see the point of adding them at all. Just use the development time on something else because at that point melee weapons wouldn't be doing anything we haven't already seen in 1000s of other games.

[rotund current]

Air/PvE Battles:
Yup, have to see what Bossa does. Though I would still love to see some phases (if it's not already a thing) and think the whole, immobilize, expose, damage system suggested in PvE Ground battles would be fun here too.

Most fun I had in PvE co-op battles was probably doing tridolons in Warframe. You were incentivized to use every game mechanic made available to the player at that point in the games development. Armor stripping with auras and/or melee weapon, archwing for fast map traversal to pursue the eidolon and collect lures, operator mode its equipment and skills to do void damage and take down eidolon shields as well as survive massive aoe damage, then any myriad number of ways to do damage to weak spots before shields went back up, then super high damage to the head/body once all weak spots were destroyed.

On top of all that it was incentivized that the 4 people who you squad with, including yourself, should fill different roles to make it go smoothly. Someone to heal everyone and take care of the lures, someone to provide damage mitigation and enhancement, someone to enhance void damage for the operator mode, then someone who specialized in doing damage with guns to be the person taking out weak spots and the majority of the final health bar.

It pulled from nearly every mechanic in the game and married them all into a pretty amazing battle.... though ofc gamers do be gamers and figured out how to optimize the hell out of the battles. So I stayed in public games which were chaotic and forced you to adapt... way more fun to me than just goin through the motions.

Anyways, all that to say, I swtg I did not intend it when writing the PvE battles section, but it did by chance, end up very reminiscent of eidolon battles. Still different but the similarities are there. I think Battles that go though phases and encourage use of different mechanics which are each enjoyable in their own right, make for good battles.

[rotund current]

PvP:
Suggestions here were mainly to try integrate pvp into progression as an alternative option people could use. It's not meant to be mutually exclusive with just playing on a world someone has setup to be pvp enabled.

The idea was to have it be a more curated or standardized PvP arena that would put you in battles against players at around the same progression as you and with as many people on their team. Again, coming at it from a very PvE MMO brained perspective. Usually PvP happens as like an alternate game mode or in a specific area / map. Also usually some kind of rank system so newbies are not fighting triple prestige, diamond rank, mlg no scope Mc Skull Crusher. Then there is also usually rewards for the PvP and rarely does loss result in someone loosing personal progress (in my experience).

Figured it would be a fun alternative way to acquire data disks and level up / do progression, perhaps also giving access to unique PvP rewards from the suggested PvP NPC. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately a lot of the systems I put in the wish list were intended to work with the other systems so they do make less sense on their own.

[rotund current]

Bases:
Chatted with mrCabbages about those above, Around here. I think this covers the reasons I suggested them.

Beyond the Zones:
I think, if the game is not to feel like playing a randomizer, and have some sense of sensible progression to it; there would have to be some degree of curation to what islands, materials, blue prints etc go into what zones... At least for a first or default play through. Could still be some randomization by pulling islands from a limited list, but I'd be surprised if allowing every island from the island creator would work or make sense. Once you've more or less finished progression, then all bets are off and you should be able to handle what ever encounter you come across, at least from a mechanical stand point.

This is why I thought that as a kind of end game to do after beating the main game, you could get away with putting any and all islands out beyond the last storm walls. To use a subnautica reference again... put random or procedurally determined / distributed islands from the community that don't really fit in the main zones out into the void.

You could even continue to do progression here where it is just numbers, levels and stats scaling up as you go further out relative to coordinate 0,0. Would also serve as a good place to put otherwise game breaking equipment or items like Bobbert's daily requested "solar surfer/ bobbert board / flying board" ™

ANYWAYS... Thanks for reading the doc, and having a discussion about it. Sorry for giving you essentially a new doc to read. In retrospect I probably don't need to respond to every one because I might just be reiterating what I've already said or wrote in the doc at this point. Getting hard to remember so not sure what is clarification and what is tautological.

[vapid holly]

I actually really like the idea of there being a final exploration zone after you complete the game which just contains randomly selected player submitted islands. That way the exploration can continue even once you run the whole storyline and the preset map.

[waxen furnace]

Wishlist: A spyglass. I feel like i am squinting half the time trying to scout out areas from afar

[summer pecan]

Wishlist: faster swap to prism

Also option to disable controls displayed in UI

[tidal heart]

A button to hide the UI so you can take screenshots or record video. Like in the island creator when you press F2

[vapid holly]

Please let me rebind the middle mouse button.

[marsh spear]

can we have custom binds for controller too? its all out of wack, maybe I can make a custom profile via steam.

this game needs melee weapons and PVP, PVP in Worlds Adrift was huge

[vapid holly]

PVP can become more of a thing when people get the ability to host larger servers, which is in the plan.

[waxen furnace]

Idk if this is already in the game but i noticed we have the crude atlas lifter, is there already a regular version in the game? If not i would love to be able to attach to a log or a boulder and fly between islands.
Maybe creature migration between islands could be a possibility too? Let players ride creatures with their grapple to find those hidden skygems in the clouds

[jolly rover]

Needs a zoom out function that is not dependant on FOV slider. I recall I could zoom out pretty far in Worlds Adrift.

[keen depot]

Since you guys are doing giveaways, have you thought about potentially doing an art, music, or creative writing giveaway? Sort of encourage the creative side of the community.