#pbd2870-launched - 12 player Strategic alliance - come with a partner

191 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

small urchin
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I want to start an alliance game with 12 player that tests my alliance variant (details at #1222765802768568441
We’ll do milty draft with regular slices (see image attached to the way the are arranged). Not sure exactly how many slices we should have - I’m leaning towards 14 but opens to suggestions. We can make up to 24 with DS tiles as well as the homebrew ER tiles, but I’m thinking of limiting to just DS tiles which are slightly more standard than ER. I think we can do 15 factions or perhaps use my old alliance drafting format where we randomly divide the factions into two groups and each team should have a faction from each group (so if you ally drafts from A, you need to draft from B and vice versa).
As for speaker order, each player can draft any number so long as it obeys the rule that for each alliance one player should be in 1-6 and the other in 7-12 (any combination is legal, it’s up to the draft). No whispers except between allies.
More details below.

Who’s in?

  1. @turbid wind and @small urchin
  2. @tiny wren and @icy cairn
  3. @barren terrace and @calm laurel
  4. @brazen tinsel and @ashen elk
  5. @swift parrot and @wicked osprey
  6. @barren forge and @limpid berry
    <@&1211178111182315590> <@&1219541591824273498>
test3_2024.04.04_-_14.20.15.jpg
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A few more points:

  • As a 12 player game, I doubt we can make this a fast one. In my experience, alliance games tend to be extra slow because people usually wait on their turn to consult their ally. So rather than being twice as fast (at any moment one of us is here and can negotiate in our name/take action etc) what often happens is that they are twice as slow (I have to consult my ally so I can only take my turn after we both meet online). So I really hope we can get people whose recent average turn time is closer to 1-3 hours than 27-35 hours. That being said, this game is likely to take months and obviously life happens and things change so that’s alright but I do hope we can get people that are in for the long haul for this one, are experienced in async and will make an effort to make this game not stall. I really do hope we can finish the game within 6 months and not make 9-12 months (though I think that’s possible).
  • I accept sign-ups in pairs, teams of two. Find someone you know relatively well (for discord/online context), that you get along with, that you trust to speak on your behalf. Finding a good ally before the game starts will really help make the game go smoothly rather than stall so please make an effort to find someone you have played with, ideally more than once, and think you’ll have a good time playing with.
  • Alliance game tend to be clown fiestas with lots of memes, weird unclear rules issues, overpowered nonsense, and generally an atmosphere of celebration. This is fine and to be expected from a variant so ludicrous. A 12 player game is not quite a mega game but it’s definitely a bit of a party (which to me was always the point of mega games - a mega game is a party game, a celebration of the insanity that is playing TI4 variants, this server and this community). That being said, I want this variant to be playable competitively - at least to the extent that regular 10vp 6p TI4 can be considered a competitive game. So I hope people can play this one not just for memes but also trying to test the format and see if the tweaks I made help smooth the Alliance experience. In particular, my goal is to replicate more of the ‘regular’ 6p dynamics in an alliance game which in part is why I went for 6 teams. The other point is to take a stance on some of the rules issues that arise in the alliance format and see if the position is coherent and entertaining.
  • Lastly, I was thinking it would be best if I didn’t play in this one so that I can observe, make rules determinations and even change the rules as they come up. However, I don’t think I’ll be able to be that engaged with the game if I’m not playing. So I’m going to play but also reserve the right to make calls about the format and the rules and perhaps tweak them as we go because this is still a play test. So be forewarned that I have a conflict of interests here but I’ll be doing my best to both play competitively and also consider the game independently of my position in it.
barren terrace
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@calm laurel Would you be interested?

fresh girder
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ayo

icy cairn
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We're with @tiny wren would like to try!

fresh girder
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this looks batshit

tiny wren
fresh girder
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im in but also idk who i want as my partner

barren forge
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@last cedar would you be interested?

fresh girder
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sad @tacit imp is retiring but i get it

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@magic grove want to be my bestie for the restie

magic grove
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Fuck it. What do I have to lose

fresh girder
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sign us up @small urchin

tacit imp
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Of course Frox rejoins society when I leave it 😏

small urchin
swift parrot
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I am down, looking for a partner then will let you know

limpid berry
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I'd definitely be down - don't have a specific partner in mind but @last cedar can speak to my reliability

ashen elk
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I would be down if anyone needs a partner. My buddy I asked was not interested.

brazen tinsel
ashen elk
brazen tinsel
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@small urchin me and @ashen elk are in

wicked osprey
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Me

wicked osprey
grizzled wolf
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Good luck with the silly game yall

swift parrot
wicked osprey
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Still not a normal game

small urchin
wicked osprey
timid ruin
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@mystic minnow ?

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Maybe ?

small urchin
last cedar
small urchin
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@limpid berry and @barren forge - y’all know each other?

barren forge
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Sadly no

limpid berry
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No, but I'm down to make a friend!

timid ruin
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@small urchin isnthere space for me?

barren forge
timid ruin
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Ok looks like its done:/

calm laurel
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But maybe missed the boat

worthy carbon
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I think the last team is filled right?

barren forge
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I think Carrot has priority here but idk

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it will be up to @small urchin on who gets the last spot

honest hollow
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Enjoy all, I look forward to hearing about it.

winged stratus
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Can I spectate pls? @small urchin

small urchin
small urchin
barren terrace
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Decision is completely yours, but we could roll for it or something if you can’t decide what’s fair

small urchin
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a bit busy though so might be tomorrow

last cedar
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I can try to get the 12p milty draft cobbled together enough so that it can be used for this

small urchin
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also I don't think I'll get to look at the random slices generated until then anyway

last cedar
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I'll know more by the end of the night

last cedar
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Yeah, DS milty draft in the bot will exist ~tomorrow probably

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Plus several other facelifts

quick hollow
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So how would you play a 12-player game where there only 8 strategy cards?

last cedar
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Tldr you share a strategy card with your alliance member

small urchin
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Can everyone here weigh in on the different ways to present the map you can find on #1226020516364816395

winged stratus
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@small urchin
I'm signing in on the waiting list with @night kiln which accepted but is yet to join the server (invit sent)

icy cairn
winged stratus
icy cairn
winged stratus
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Oh... Right sorry, I forgot my rename, I was not expecting this joke :]

fresh girder
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actually can you take me off @small urchin i think i need to slow down on game

gritty spear
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me and @mighty briar are in if there's still room

small urchin
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Well we may have two games starting

small urchin
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Who’s in?

  1. @turbid wind and @small urchin
  2. @tiny wren and @icy cairn
  3. @barren terrace and @calm laurel
  4. @brazen tinsel and @ashen elk
  5. @swift parrot and @wicked osprey
  6. @barren forge and @limpid berry
  7. @timid ruin + @olive basin
  8. @winged stratus + @night kiln
  9. @gritty spear + @mighty briar
wicked osprey
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Me and Beck

timid ruin
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@olive basin ?

wicked osprey
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The disaster duo

olive basin
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What's this

timid ruin
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Doesn't matter, we are team now

olive basin
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Perfect

small urchin
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So here’s my thinking everyone: the reason I wanted to try an insane 12p format is that I have a dislike for 3p games which the 6p alliance format feels like to me (see reasons here #general-chat message). But lots of other people like 3p or 6p alliance so if any of y’all want to do a 6p alliance I would love to have my alliance variant tested in that context. Or an 8p alliance game with my 10 SCs if one more pair joins (maybe I’ll double up with another ally). What do y’all think? Anyone here happy/happier to do 6p or 8p alliance instead of 12p?

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swift parrot
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Confirmed

tiny wren
barren forge
icy cairn
winged stratus
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@small urchin link to your 10 SCs description?

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Unfortunately your map was designed for 12 players I think

barren terrace
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I’m fine with however many teams

barren terrace
winged stratus
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I confirm participation of myself and my teammate in whatever is set up except for 6p alliance (for the same reasons you gave in linked message).
I have a preference for what was initially announced (opinion might change after seeing the 10 SCs).

I am ok if there is not enough people to fill more games, imo first arrived first served, and I arrived late.
As well, a second LFG post could be made, to fill a second game if needed.

barren forge
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I do have an updated version of HolyTispoon 10 that works with DS, that have had play tested and developed.

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but let me see if I can find the original version, of HolyTispoon 10.

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Yeah I cannot find the archive of the original

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If @small urchin is ok I can post mine, but idk if that is kosher

last cedar
barren forge
wicked osprey
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I don’t mind tiles, but I would not like to play with DS factions

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It’s a bit much for me to keep track of in larger games

barren forge
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Like spending and gaining CC's off leadership

fierce marsh
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Yeah I wound up shelving my effort to build out other SC implementation. I got close but the number of second level effects was unanticipatedly massive

brazen tinsel
barren forge
small urchin
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I don’t think there’s a jol-Nar problem with Diplomacy but have considered a different variant of it for other reasons

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But I haven’t looked at yours Lumnious

barren forge
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It's your thread, better to ask permission than to post anyway

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  1. ANTICIPATION
    Primary:
  • Ready up to 2 planets you control.
  • Ready a tech, agent, or relic.
  • Redistribute the command tokens on your sheet.
    Secondary:
    *Spend 1 token from your strategy pool to ready up to 2 planets you control.
  1. DIPLOMACY
    Primary:
  • Choose a system otehr than Mecatol Rex that contains a planet you control; each other player places a token from their renforcements in that system.
  • Explore 1 planet you control.
  • Draw 1 action card.
    Secondary:
  • Spend 1 token from your stratgey pool to explore 1 planet you control and draw 1 action card.
  1. LEADERHIP
    (unchanged)
  2. POLITICS
    (unchanged)
  3. CONSTRUCTION
    Primary:
  • You may place up to two structures on planets you control.
    Secondary:
    (unchanged)
  1. TRADE
    (unchanged)
  2. WARFARE
    Primary:
  • Choose 1 system. You may use the PRODUCTION ability of one your units in that system. If you do, place a command token from your reinforcements into that system.
  • Remove 1 of your command tokens from the game board; then, gain 1 command token.
    Secondary:
    *Spend 1 token from your strategy pool to use the PRODUCTION ability of 1 of your space docks in your home system.(unchanged)
  1. TECHNOLOGY
    (as normal)
  2. ESPIONAGE
    Primary:
  • Score 1 public objective if you fullfill the requirements
  • You may perform the secondary ability of any exhuasted strategy card, spending tokens from your reinforcements.
  • (Note: Nether the primary or secondary ability of this strategy card is affected by Faction abilities, thus thing like Jol-Nar Brilliant do not work with this SC)
    Secondary:
  • Resolve this ability as if it were instead the ability of any one exhuasted strategy card.
  1. IMPERIAL
    Primary:
  • Gain 1 victory point if you control Mecatol Rex; otherwise, draw 1 secret objective.
  • Draw 1 secret objective.
    Secondary:
    (as normal)
barren forge
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We changed SC9 Espionage, b/c we found the revealing of objectives while nice, it completely negated Augurs of Ilyxum's hero from the DS faction, and really breaks the stage II late game. Objective scoring.

small urchin
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I’ve changed them a little since luminous looked at them I think

small urchin
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And then I went on a break and unfortunately that old version stuck around

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But it’s absolutely not optimized for DS

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Cuz I have played only a little bit of DS

barren forge
small urchin
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It’s just a different project though

barren forge
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Meant to say my project not the project

ashen elk
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I don't know much about DS factions either so I would vote a no on that. But not completely up to me. So are we having 14 people now?

brazen tinsel
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Why not 16 people?!

small urchin
# barren forge 1. __ANTICIPATION__ __Primary__: * Ready up to 2 planets you control. * Ready a ...

Yeah I just don’t see a problem with jol-nar doing tech twice in 8 player games. Especially since it would still cost an extra strategy token which are on higher demand given that there are more cards to follow. And that’s only if diplo is picked which it isn’t always (jol nar can’t do it if they pick diplo).
Also it seems like jol nar can still do it in your set if they pick espionage which to me seems problematic. Also, I would recommend striking the words ‘spending tokens from reinforcements’ - that was my mistaken phrasing. There is no such language really anywhere in the game. When you spend tokens it’s always from your strategy pool. When you don’t have to use a token it just says you don’t need to use a token and it says ‘if you have to place a token you place a token from reinforcements’ which applies to construction. If you want jol nar not to be able to do that, I recommend using that word.

small urchin
small urchin
barren forge
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is not reinforcements

small urchin
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More people around, more money flows through Hacan

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I haven’t seen it break the game in any way

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Nekro gets a lot scarier as I see it

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But that’s just nekro

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Yssaril agent is more powerful

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Lots of things change

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Many of them don’t scale as well which is a bigger problem than things that do scale

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Mahact is probably the biggest problem

barren forge
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fair enough

small urchin
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That’s my perspective so far with testing I’ve done! Of course there’s room for disagreement

swift parrot
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😆

small urchin
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Ok so I see not much appetite for 8p with 10 cards so I think I’m gonna launch the 12p game with

  1. @turbid wind and @small urchin
  2. @tiny wren and @icy cairn
  3. @barren terrace and @calm laurel
  4. @brazen tinsel and @ashen elk
  5. @swift parrot and @wicked osprey
  6. @barren forge and @limpid berry

Assuming everyone above is happy to play with no DS faction or ACs (as jazz noted we have to use the uncharted DS tiles because ER tiles are not yet integrated into the milty tool and so sadly we can only have 13 slices rather than 14 or 15). If there’s an appetite for a DS game I know Luminous would be happy to I just haven’t been able to play enough DS to take those elements into variant mode.

Which leaves:

  1. @timid ruin + @olive basin
  2. @winged stratus + @night kiln
  3. @gritty spear + @mighty briar

And I think we can open a separate post for an additional Game and see if we can find two more pairs.

small urchin
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You just walked into your own trap

swift parrot
small urchin
# swift parrot https://tenor.com/view/spiderman-quarentine-spiderman-quarentine-sunday-monday-t...

We can’t and shouldn’t but honestly you’re in the loop in your own - you said there’s no room to disagree with me but if that’s true it would be untrue because I disagree with it. But if you just drop that notion you’ll be with me, in the open space where there’s always room to disagree with me even when I make strong assertions that seem to admit no room for differing opinions. Once you drop that claim and reject the appearance of assurances the cycle evaporates and all there is an illusory contradiction between appearance and substance.

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Anyway let’s play some alliance

ashen elk
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I am a bit confused on how strategy card are played even after reading the rule in the tread above do I ask questions about it here or in that thread? lol

small urchin
ashen elk
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So only one teammate gets to follow the primary right? The does the other teammate get to follow the bottom for free or would they still need to pay a token for that?

winter nightBOT
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HolyTispoon used /bothelper create_game_channels game_fun_name: 12p mini-mega Alliance game player1: @holytispoon player2: @baldrick3 player3: @bertiewoo player4: @denaltair player5: @carrot5012 player6: @tonberry9999 player7: @lukegwild player8: @captaincrohns category: When You Play the Game of Spoons You Win or You Scoop
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Role and Channels have been set up:

pbd2870
#1226746985315307632
#1226746987001679882
#1226746988008177704

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pbd2870-launched - 12 player Strategic alliance - come with a partner

small urchin
ashen elk
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Oh gotcha. Sorry I was just confused about the major minor thing. I get it now. Thanks for working though my stupidity with me lol

small urchin
brazen tinsel
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Also what channel is this launched in?

ashen elk
brazen tinsel
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We also gotta draft yeah?

small urchin
small urchin
brazen tinsel
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@small urchin can you explain a use case of the minor sc the way I’m reading it it seems like it wouldn’t be useful to use ever. Why not just wait till your ally’s turn and have them play the card then saving yourself the command token?

small urchin
# brazen tinsel <@150809002974904321> can you explain a use case of the minor sc the way I’m rea...

It’s not supposed to be super duper useful but:

  • it’s a stall. If you’re being stalled out leadership you can usually play your SC as one of your actions. I wanted the minor to have that same action tempo and not be disadvantaged. Note you don’t have to play it - you can pass without playing your minor SC.
  • given the turn order of 12 people it could be a big deal to play the SC on 17 instead of 7 - if 16 attacked your ally and they need a tech to defend themselves before 6 comes around, you have that option but you have to pay a token for it.
  • the minor SC let’s your ally give you tokens. Is that useful? I don’t know! But that’s what testing is for. I wanted it to have something that allies may want to give each other but normally can’t. Seemed like a fine thing to explore but maybe it doesn’t actually do much.
brazen tinsel
barren forge
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@small urchin ik you pinged the place of the updated SCs but I am having trouble finding them

small urchin
brazen tinsel
small urchin
winged stratus
winged stratus
small urchin
small urchin
unique merlin
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Holy shit sign me up if you make another 😆

winged stratus
unique merlin
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Maybe @jovial flame ?

olive basin
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@sterile cobalt and @peak cairn wants to destroy @timid ruin and I!

peak cairn
olive basin
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@small urchin should we make a new post?

sterile cobalt
winged stratus
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5 potential teams?! pog ig

small urchin
winged stratus
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All good if you want to pass on playing it, but we will need you for draft, setup and rules I think

winged stratus
jovial flame
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@unique merlin if you're up for it, so am I!

sterile cobalt
olive basin
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Oh no

winged stratus
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@small urchin can I make the LFG post for game 2?

small urchin
olive basin
winged stratus
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I will try to find the time this evening @olive basin

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Lots of things to write in the LFG post