#Ship Balance Feedback

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

silent barn
#

So they can review as well

#

I’ve added some comments based on feedback already

sonic pebble
#

I personally think all of the items on your list need to be revised.

Several of them do not have clarification on how they actually work in game.
Naga at 300km...but its in falloff...so its DPS is actually lower.

Daredevil Change is going to create several problems both with blasters and rails...because of the web bonus being around 85% at full skill...are you sure that is a good idea?

Alot of the suggestions are nerfs...not counter buffs.

I think the Vulture "preemptive" nerf will backfire because people will focus on another ship.

The Windrunner Comp...I have checked it over...just adjust fitting PG/CPU...then it becomes very very tight especially with the artillery variants.

But if you go after the ABCs this will have unintended consequences in fighting or targeting heavier threats on a cheaper level...this will probably be opposed heavily.

This Grid "Closing" argument is getting a bit tiresome, because why not instead ask for modules (MWD/ABs) to be buffed in speed?

The other ironic thing for this grid issue...is already in game. The AoE Warp Scrams/Disrupts that Super Carriers have access to. Why not allow HiCs access to this device? Because you could cast and trap or disrupt people on grid for a key amount of time. [That also puts pressure on Wind Runner Comp without tearing ABCs apart.]

The Cenotaph is kind of a funny...it has broken the deadlock in such a way...that it shows one of the main problems in the game is player organization.

remote flower
#

Carriers.

The problem with carriers isnt necessarily the damage, or application, or whatever. The problems are:

Role. Carriers should be the fulcrum of a fleet fight. They add support through boosts, mobility with jump field generators and conduits, and projection with the fighters. Lean into these. Make the field generator yoink EVERY subcap in its range (or, alternatively, it cant take caps with it, so you can use multiple carriers to move a fleet without booshing your booshers). Fighters give good range, yes, but the travel time combined with how easy they are to defang defeats this before they fire a shot. Permanent MWDs to close range, combined with a tracking penalty when it's on, would help this greatly. Boosts are, for some reason, worse than command ships. These are supposed to be the apex of a fleet, they should have greater than, or at least equal to, the "skirmish" command ships.

Tank. Lower EHP than a dread if buffer fit, lower reps than a marauder if active (with a massive cycle time). Nerf siege/triage tank bonus, bake it in to the base module. Should a carrier tank as much as a sieged dread? certainly not, but it should still be enough that a literal dozen bombers aren't certain death.

Price. The hull alone costs more than a dread, and then you spend not only the cost of a fitting, but your ammo costs another billion. Fighters are far too easily destroyed for their cost, and it makes taking an engagement feel bad unless you're already overwhelming the field.

Support fighters. Not only are they bad, but you have to sacrifice a wing of combat fighters to use them. Add a 4th tube for support fighters, and make them feel good to use. Even the only "good" support fighters, sirens, can't catch what they're trying to hold in place with their extremely short point, only have 3/wing so they're easy to haze off, and the wing costs more than a fitted assault frigate that could actually tackle something.

#

Fighter cost/durability. Re-iteration for emphasis. Fighter cost is just far too high for their fragility. There have been many ideas thrown out over the years regarding this, from changing FSU's to items that build fighters of x type in exchange for some "fuel" the carrier hauls along, allowing replenishment as needed so long as the carrier can remain fueled, to fighters that can be only hurt by other fighters. Frankly, there's a lot of room here for development, but simply reducing the cost of the ammunition (because that's what they are) would help immensely. God help you if you deploy a super's worth of T2 LR fighters, and a bombing run comes by. In a moment, with little chance to do anything about it, not only have you lost your firepower, but 2bil worth of ammo is just gone. Yes, this is an "issue" with drone boats in general, but instead of simply being the counterplay to an ishtar, it completely neuters the ship.

Fighter controls. Ok, they're not "just drones", so they need to be controlled like individual ships. Great, I get it. That said, the current controls are simply frustrating. Needing to wait for 5s cycle times to switch targets with out the ability to queue things like drones makes them just feel bad. MWDs should not have cooldowns, just on/off with an application penalty when it's on, like every other ship effectively does.

coral night
#

I looked over your document. Could you.... add significantly more detail to this? We need to be extremely careful that our feedback isn't taken the wrong way. Each of these essentially need to be explained to an Eve Online laymen just so we are 100% sure nothing gets misinterpreted. I find it's also very useful to explain what NOT to do and why as well, just so things are clear.

#

And it's best to quantity feedback as much as possible. "Needs more ___" and "needs a nerf" isn't clear. You have to explain what's too much and what's too little.

#

Also, ship balance is partially challenging because by buffing one ship, it can easily eclipse the role of another. That's not the point. Each ship should already have an identified role it's specifically filling in the meta.

#

Broad changes are also very very bad. They often massively overbuff something while nerfing something else. Changes to tank mods, entire weapon types, and ammo should be approached with extreme caution.

#

For instance: look at what just happened with the SS revert. The Rokh and FNI are now super oppressive compared to similar ships.

remote flower
dire flume
#

SS in general should never have been put into affect

#

probably the single worst change in the game since I started playing

remote flower
#

frankly, for a big balance pass, i'm FAR less interested in "disrupting the meta" than i am in getting ships that are pure ass (like the abaddon) and giving them a role and a chance to be used

dire flume
remote flower
remote flower
dire flume
remote flower
#

but there's also SO MUCH that's just unusable, and needs grand, broad strokes to fix

dire flume
#

There's a lot of different ideas but I personally like making LR weapons slow your ship by 50% when you're firing your guns

#

and yes I'm aware that would also affect kiting in solo/small gang context

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Porpoise needs to be buffed to full compression capability access. The Porpoise is being used as a compression ship inside of a POS. Instead of a ship on grid boosting or giving compression options. All the same compression options for the Orca should be available at medium sizes for the Porpoises. Ice Compression, Moon Ore Compression and Morphite Ore Compression. The ships limited highslots mean you can't fit all the compression items + industrial core. Or compression + booster + industrial core + utility module of choice.

Reasons: A Porpoise should be the go to high risk booster and compression ship for small groups or people risking lowsec or hostile space [wormhole/null/etc] It should also allow access to more of the resources in those spaces...and create more economic opportunites. And give the smaller groups chances to get to resources.

Suggestions: GIve the Porpoise full access...to ice/ore/moon ore/morphite/gas compressors in medium size.
Also make compression not able to be done inside POS shields or on tethers.

remote flower
remote flower
dapper ruin
#

alrigth explained to you why thats a terrible idea

dire flume
sonic pebble
# dire flume Personally, and I've been saying this for year, I think LR weapons in general sh...

No you guys are taking shots at something the wrong way.

What do you do to counter act? Increase EWAR options against long range. IE the ranges they can reach. EWAR frigates and potentially the introduction of a EWAR cruiser hull class to help pressure LR.

The other options is creating Mid-Range Ammo that allows people to engage with minimal movement. Most LR guns onces your force starts orbits or speed tanking becomes really unusable...their tracking is horrendous.

Also Introduce the AoE EWAR weapons to HiCs...or a new EWAR Cruiser hull...and it has long cast range...so if someone tries to do camp and snipe...they get the AoE damp shot.

dapper ruin
#

or here is an easier, better approach. Nerf LR weapons

remote flower
sonic pebble
#

Then we go after the Missile Players

#

Its better idea to add longer range EWAR counters to the LR ships

#

And or...add Medium Range ammunition...that allows players to move and engage...without having to commit to brawl. Or allows them to pressure until they can close to brawl.

dapper ruin
#

ewar is already a signficant factor in fleet fights

remote flower
#

make carriers able to counter LR comps

#

just like reality, the fighter[bomber] killed the battleship

dapper ruin
#

reduce overall targeting range of hulls that use LR weapons, such as the naga, ferox.
Can reduce the base effective range for LR ammo
Can make LR weapons take more fitting

#

or do something drastic like Casey said and make LR weapon firing slow you down 50%

sonic pebble
# coral night I looked over your document. Could you.... add significantly more detail to this...

Its a problem...too vague with the list.

Some of the ships mentioned have counters...or ways to play/counter play...but if you are playing standard.

Points to the Loki/CFI combo...then its the fleet boost that needs to be looked at. People are going after the weapons and hull...when they are not going for the obvious issue of fleet boosts adding extra benefits. Same problems can be said with the Windrunner. [Yes you can fit a Tornado to a specific set of options...but if you use different mechanics of the ships in a fleet you can offset certain problems and get some combined advantages across the fleet...but the person who is getting engaged only sees the Tornado as the offending hull...because it killed them.]

And SS...was done in such a way...that then things like the fleet boosts have increased some problems.

sonic pebble
# dapper ruin reduce overall targeting range of hulls that use LR weapons, such as the naga, f...

Thats actually one of the opposing arguments in the feedback..people want more fitting capability since some weapons can't be fit with any efficiency.

I think this anti-LR weapon argument is more of a want to brawl argument. I understand that sentiment. LR is your hard counter to Brawling. So we need to eliminate several major problems first.

How is X ship with Weapon 1/2/3 applying to target. But I don't think people here want to create a full on auto generating spreadsheet with all the hulls combinations that then can compare various LR weapons on various hulls and see how they are applying in falloff and optimals. (Which also conveniently obfuscates missile ships from this discussion)

Now if your fleet is just warping/hotdropping into a fight or sitting still yeah LR weaponry is going to pick you apart. But alot of LR weaponry has deadzones either with signature/speed/or angular velocity. Which means if a players are thinking out their maneuvers they can minimize losses. [Although alot of people modules and MWDs that make them easier to hit...btw.] And the fact also you can use things like the command destroyer to jump ships at a target...potentially you can use that to close in on the snipers.

Maybe the mobile assets could help if you have fast deployment times.

sonic pebble
#

I disagree with this list.
We already have alot of ships that are suffering from extremely low speed as is...and do you want to discuss with the player base if they use armor rigs [which slows them down] and anything else that might slow them down. Why their ships are sitting ducks?

I think the main problem with "speed creep" is "speed clones" IE too many of the modules currently in game are the same. Which means alot of ships are operating in the same speed bracket.

The Minimum Warp Range argument...will probably be subverted...people will just congo line a set of ships 100-100-100...and then drop their fleet to the one who is closest. Personally I would rather have a unique direction warp mechanic...but that takes up alot of cap...you can set the range...minimum 125km. So you can aim jump ships...but a bit messier. While MJDs and command dessies still give you tactical advantages...and less cap usage.

Again the grid issue here...do you want to discuss with PVE players why their ships have been nerfed in targeting range? Lets not mess with targeting or max range sweeping changes...that will really annoy one set of the playerbase vs the other. Lets go with the above warping mechanic...or allow HICs or new EWAR cruisers to use the same AoE EWAR (warp scram/warp disrupt/ECM/Weapon Disruption/Damps) that Super Carriers use. LR weapon usage becomes risky very quick.

Scram/Warp Disrupt increases...I am not sure that is a wise consideration Considering you can already push 60-93km warp disrupts as of now. If you want the Heavy Warp Scrams/Disrupts to be able to be fitted to smaller ships like cruisers. (I can agree to that.) If we do what you suggest we are going to have 100km+ issues very fast. And people will not risk activities with that potential to happen.

sonic pebble
#

The RLML situation has been discussed before.
Many times its a Skill + Hull + Launcher + Missile stats issues.

The main problem I think that needs to be discussed is the explosion radius/explosion velocity of light missiles against small signature targets. [IE Frigates in general] Many times a fully skilled pilot is going to apply straight out on a frigate player without breaking a sweat. Now if you were try that with rockets [range issue] or any other missile there will be miss-match and ways to escape damage or tank it.

I think the light missiles need to be revisited...I think they should be able to apply to larger targets [base line]...but against smaller targets you need to swap between precision or fury. Fury will be against again larger targets. [you can get it to apply but you need fits to do that.] where as precision is going after smaller signature target...that could give frigate players some breathing room...and potential to survive an opponent who is using RLML as a "catch all" because of the current missile stats.

On the subject of Pirate ships.
Phantasm doesn't need a bonus increase to AB speed. But maybe the modules could be looked at. More variety in top speed of ABs. [Which you can try with abyssals at the moment] And that flat bonus affects 1/10/100MN equally. (no one would use 1MN normally on a Phantasm but you get the idea.)

Ashimmu...I would put the Neut/Nos Falloff higher...so it can reach to the 60km web range they can do. [Or to 40km] We don't want ships instantly becoming oppressive. (ie optimal with neuts.) We want to pressure them. Increasing Neut pressure via falloff until we reach optimal by closing range. Small optimal range buff 50%...but a much longer falloff bonus.

My argument with the T3C is how some of them really are lacking in the drone department.

Cap Regn over all ship types need revision.

Typhoon Fleet is smallest Sig Empire T1/Nav BS. Why Shrink it?

tired trout
#

Omen navy deserve a capacitor buff or a reduction of the med energy turret consumption like the T1 or the harbinger navy

image.png
sonic pebble
#

You know the laser ships have a pretty hard time with capacitor because Rate of Fire on those hulls means the capacitor usage is increased.

I wonder some increases in how cap batteries and cap rechargers work...especially with Amarr hulls.

digital basalt
#

holy crap milint can yap

ebon turret
#

Yea..

reef whale
#

Feedback:
Revert paladin optimal range bonus back to 7.5%

Reason:
It was nerfed to 5% because of large fleet dominance, but that is no longer a worry after removal of plate bonus. The range increase would help in PvE.

silent barn
reef whale
silent barn
reef whale
#

thats a lot of clicks

silent barn
#

I wonder then if it’s needed the bonus

#

You don’t lose that much dps

reef whale
#

well its not needed, im just pushing for my own benefit here

silent barn
#

Hmmm

silver drum
#

You can swap ammo in one click if you group weapons.

reef whale
#

ah but i run 12 paladins

#

i have no hope of getting this change through do i..

silent barn
#

No

#

You don’t

#

lol

silver drum
reef whale
#

wipes tears with blue loot

sacred juniper
#

l2p rapid lights are the worst medium weapon system in the game currently tied with trig tickle gun

#

oh its the foxholer shitstain no wonder so out of touch

steep needle
#

remove or nerf rlml range bonus on all ships e.g. cerb

#

The cerb does not have an rlml range bonus?

#

On the topic of the cerb can it be buffed

#

Substantially

ebon turret
#

+1 mid -1 low

#

Is what it needs

steep needle
#

That'd be nice

fast prairie
#

Has this channel complained that the Gallente T1 BCs are a bit shit and need some help yet?

#

Brutix/Myrm more so than the navies, because BNI is great but Myrm Navy is a meme

silent barn
fast prairie
#

also give vni 125m2 back

ebon turret
fast prairie
#

pls

ebon turret
#

Nope

silent barn
#

Ronga

#

I tried

#

But no lol

shadow flax
#

I see some suggesting nerfs to kiting.

Without going into the specifics of these suggestions allow me to just say this: kiting is the ONLY play available when you are outnumbered or out-shipped. It allows you to trade speed, range, and hopefully play skill against numbers and size.

sonic pebble
# shadow flax I see some suggesting nerfs to kiting. Without going into the specifics of the...

Yes...you can see alot of suggestions for nerfing all the Long Range [LR] guns.

Yet, no-one is discussing why that become normal in game...looks over at Brawling Piranaha Ball Blob of Doom tactics that are usually done.

Hence my suggestion is adding "Mid Range ammo" so you can pressure a kiter...until you can close. But also the Kiting Builds [Barring Missile Kiting Builds] work best when you are in 0 transversal rush or pursuit attacks. If you start to maneuver on the grid or keep considerations of controlling your signature bloom. Many turret Kiting builds become pretty worthless very quickly. And some of the kiting builds...actually have "dead zones" that one can exploit via [Getting under the guns...some weapon systems have worse deadzones than others.]

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Cenotaph Nerfs Need in Wormhole Space Suggestion is Disingenuous. The discussion on the Cenotaph being "Oppressive in Wormhole Space" and needs to be nerfed is not fully being put forward with good faith. Note that the particular wormholes in question...with bonuses are not being noted.

The Cenotaph is actually very "overtuned" comparatively to many ships.
Its Breacher Pods are not affected by the Blackhole Wormhole Bonus. ✅
Range of the Breacher Pod is Fixed 12km ✅
Can not be Overheated no benefit from Red Giant. ✅
Damage from the Breacher Pod only is applied by one at a time. [Breacher Pods can decay before applying] ✅
And the weapon as a whole is very well tuned.

However, if we flip the argue to its targets. Then we start to see some interesting problems from the targets point of view.

Cenotaph has become...for all intents and Purposes...the BLOPs of WH space. Stealthy Sneaky and can easily take down ships many times its size. *And Invested Interests in Wormhole space are concerned as further price reduction of the Cenotaph will severely threaten their profits and very blingy ratting ships. If not tip the balance of power to invading forces from K-space using Cenotaphs as part of their attack forces. *

Cenotaph is highly punishing against shield ships in Pulsars. Higher Shield HP meaning the Breacher Pod is going to do higher damage.
is Logi countered in Cataclysmic
can be a problem in Wolf Rayet [100% Armor HP points] although mostly facing smaller ships frigates/dessies/cruisers so less damage output on Breacher.
in Magnetar is highly situational since it can be outgunned.
in Red Giant might be a bit more situation since the overheat damage to modules like local reps to counter its damage.
Black hole might allow it sneak up and move across grid faster...missile ships counter.

**Reason: **WH trying to protect bling ships as price drops on hull.
Suggestions: check fits in pulsar/WFR/ and cloak speed to rebalance.

shadow flax
#

I don't disagree. My point was self evident. Kiting and speed tactics offer the only alternative to n+1 and up shipping.

sonic pebble
#

Maybe a Scan Resolution adjustment could be discussed...or how that mechanic works...would give some time for a target at longer range to react or move. But that is another hot button spot as well.

dapper ruin
#

Milint, please, shut up

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Buff the Echelon so it can be used for Data Sites. Currently the Echelon Frigate is a unique high hacking capable frigate. However it is from a time frame when the mechanics for getting into data sites was different. So it didn't need probe scanner to interact with data sites. However, since the game has changed...it is regulated to a very high logistic activity situation.

IE the Echelon has to require a player to scan sites down first...then come back and load into the ship and then warp to the site. Also the Echelon is extremely slow on grid...meaning it is a very vulnerable target.

Reasons: I would like see the Echelon being used more in game, and probably playing a part in various events. It can be kept as a very specialized hull, but more dedicated to the exploration side of this game.

Suggestions: +1 high slot for probe launcher. [Potentially 99% reduction?]
+1 mid slot. For a Prop Mod. [Potential Fitting reduction bonus?]

The Echelon would still be a data site only geared ship..but it would be seen more and potentially a target for exploration hunters.

shadow flax
sonic pebble
# shadow flax The question seems to be how to negate the only effective option micro and small...

True very true.

I am actually surprised there hasn't been a single discussion on Stasis Web probes at all. Just everyone going ham on the Long Range Weapons...and they are already kind of in a weird spot tracking wise.

But weight of tradition and normalcy of N+1 actions is going to happen either way. And I think most groups don't want to lose ships to skilled players in the micro/small gang field.

I thought the idea was to encourage more PVP...not drive out emergent playstyles.

ebon turret
elder hollow
#

thankfully the devs learned long ago to ignore milint

steep needle
#

how about he gets locked out of the thread so they dont have to ignore every other message

acoustic obsidian
elder hollow
#

if only

dapper ruin
#

I think he only needs 1 or 2 more warnings and he's perma banned?

deep fox
#

Best regards

steep needle
#

if only it was 1

strange basin
#

Feedback: I think allowing the Nestor to equip a Covert Ops Cloak would be extremely useful for both WH explorers and Black Ops fleets. The WH part is mostly convenience, but the Black Ops fleets would gain not just a powerful logistic support ship, but also a covert mobile base to change fits.

Reasons: If I remember correctly the time line, the Nestor was introduced before the T2 battleships were. If this was the other way, I'm sure the Nestor itself would be a Black Ops ship too. According to the current canon, the engineers concluded that covert ops is impossible, but then the empire factions managed to make a lot of progress in cloaking technology. The simple change of allowing the Nestor to use Covert Ops Cloak would significantly improve it's potential both as an explorer and as a fleet support vessel.

Suggestions: Now, I specifically don't want the Nestor to be turned into a Black Ops ship, combined with it's other abilities that would be way too OP. But the Covert Ops Cloak would allow it to be projected by Black Ops ships, which I believe would be enough. The canon explanation could be that equipping the Nestor with a jump drive would increase it's mass to the point where it loses it's advantage in WH exploration.

worn dock
strange basin
#

then I was probably remembering something else

#

what do you think about the general idea?

restive bay
#

Something as tanky as a Nestor shouldn’t have a covops cloak imo

worn dock
#

covops nestor would be really funny for smartbombing fleets

#

I don’t think it’s a good idea though

#

blops are already strong they don’t need nestor logi too

#

I don’t think you’re serious about your suggestion of using it as an explorer

sonic pebble
#

Well the Covert Ops rules were broken with the Deathless Ships...so eventually there will probably be a Cov Op Battleship eventually...where or whom deploys it first will be the question.

sonic pebble
# strange basin **Feedback:** I think allowing the Nestor to equip a Covert Ops Cloak would be e...

Nestor is "supposedly" designed for a specific site...the Superior Sleeper Cache...but you very rarely see it running those sites...generally due to the fact you now have more competition for the sites...due to T3Cs...and also the recent changes to the loot tables. If you do see them [rarely] its going to be highsec...or lowsec.

Outside of that Nestors are used at Logi.
Even though they should be one of two..."exploration" capable BS. [The other being the Praxis]

#

Cov Op might be of benefit for that line of thinking...but alot of people don't want Cov Op capable battleships sneaking around their backyard.

native briar
muted fulcrum
#

Feedback: carriers lack a reason to be on grid. The boosh is a gimmick which has limited use. Suggestion: buff the links that they can provide. Reasoning: Currently the best links in game are on a battle cruiser size hull - if carriers are able to provide better links this provides a reason for them to be on grid and risked. Fax links should NOT be buffed.

silver drum
#

Currently I can only think of two particular points of note which are somewhat minor but affect the use of two ships I particularly like in ways I believe don't make sense given their purpose.
Feedback:
Adjustments to both expedition frigates, in particular the addition of a 4th high slot for the Prospect and allowing Covops cloak use on the Endurance.
Reasoning:
The Prospect and Endurance are designed explicitly around covert mining operations in dangerous territory with minimal to no support; they're almost perfect for those operating alone within wormholes or Pochven.

However that being said I believe the lack of a 4th high slot unnecessarily constrains the Prospect’s capability to do its job by mandating the use of Mobile Depots or an expensive dedicated scanner, which as far as I’m concerned goes against its design ethos that makes it strange to require such support to do its main task. (Gas mining)

The Endurance meanwhile for reasons which I’ve never understood lacks the ability to use covert ops cloaks even though its sister ship can and despite their purpose being almost identical. I can neither see balance nor lore reasoning behind this choice, unlike with the Nestor and the inability of Blops to use them given that it's only a frigate. It was built for the same general purpose as the Prospect, only with different specialty.
Suggestions:
The Prospect could do with a 4th high slot, whether at the cost of one of its lows or not.
Give the Endurance access to covops cloaks.

spare tangle
#

I assume the endurance cant use a covert cloak because of its abilty to reach like 30.000 EHP if fitted for it compared to the prospects like 7.000

And having the almost 20.000 m3 ore hold it would probably be a very tight fit to get a covert cloak stuff fitted in it

silver drum
spare tangle
silver drum
#

What else have you done to it.

#

Also tbf high health hasn't stopped them putting covops cloaks on ships before, can't the ceno get up to like 80-100,000?

steep needle
#

talking as if getting 30k on an endurance is hard

#

(its not)

spare tangle
#

Yeah its just shield hardeners and extenders

steep needle
#

you can get up to almost 50k with just faction and t2 mods

#

if you fit nothing aside from tank

silver drum
#

Grim.

spare tangle
#

Big ore hold and shields id asaume it just doesnt have the space inside the hull for covert ops tech

silver drum
#

I can only assume this is with all shield compensation and shield management up to V right?

spare tangle
#

I have mostly 3 and 4 skill wise

silver drum
#

. . .

spare tangle
#

I dont get the like 50k ehp ones but 20 to 30 isnt impossible

#

But yeah you can move at like 600m/s cloaked too and basically just do the MWD cloak trick without a mwd as well

It doesnt really need a covert cloak

Do agree with a 4th high on the prospect though 100%

#

Only thing id give the endurance is a 20.000 m3 ore hold because my ocd cant handle it being 19.000

(Same with every other ore ship just make it nice even numbers 🙏 )

ebon turret
#

can we get new icons for guidance disruptor scripts pls, to differentiate them from guidance computer scripts

image.png
spare tangle
silver drum
whole vale
#

Feedback:
While fun, the angel ship pirate role bonus has limited uses once combat begins. In fact it's increased warp speed is usually best used as a tool to run away and has become even less effective with changes to warp speed recently.

Suggestion:
To lean further into the hull desire to play keep away I suggest a bonus to reduce the sig radius effect of shield modules. This will give it a little more staying power on grid in the range it likes to play in.

spare tangle
# silver drum A tiny Noctis?

A tiny covert noctis yeah

Think like 4 high slots so 3 salvagers and a covert cloak 15 m3 drone bandwidth with 30 capacity like the endurance

Then probably 3 lows and 3 mids so between the prospect and enduance in slots

#

Something you can just roam in to salvage and loot wrecks thats better then a t1 explo frigate but not as slow as a noctis

silver drum
#

Not the weirdest idea I've heard

spare tangle
#

Cant really follow around active fleets to steal their loot/wrecks in a noctis explo frigs can work just only has a salvager duration bonus and nothing else though and i think the t2 ones loose that bonus too

sonic pebble
# spare tangle Yeah its just shield hardeners and extenders

But you are forgetting that your signature is now being bloomed and you have to factor in capacitor.

Endurance isn't generally seen outside highsec or events due to some of its overspecialization. [Which has been impacted a bit by changes to the filaments this year...which will probably negatively impact Endurances being seen further afield for ice mining in the Nexus Sites.]

Although any argument for the space size squeezing...kind of falls apart when the Endurance and Prospect "Arms" are where the mining holds are...and the covert op cloak is generally installed back in that hull/propulsion area. Consider also that a Mining Frigate is larger than the Cov Op Exploration Frigates...which were very difficult to fit cov ops cloak to...and lost cargo space. 200m3 [in general] from the 400m3 of the T1 exploration/utility frigate.

The other little problem is distance and bump mapping in game. Yes the Endurance has a special bonus that allows it to full speed under cloak. But that is its baseline hull speed. It can found and detected...usually by "dragnet" running across an area with drones deployed.

I am not totally convinced that having the plain cloak speed bonus is a good argument in the long term and has made it less likely to be seen outside of highsec. Prospect you will see...but it takes a bit of logistics just to get it on grid with resources.

sonic pebble
#

But also traditional practices of fleets is to shoot any wrecks afterwards.

#

So salvagers really don't get used.

#

as much as they should.

limpid rapids
#

Milint, as someone who regularly flies endurance over prospect, I’m going to bluntly say, you really need to get better material here

#

There are several methods of mitigation for most of the things you say are ‘big issues preventing/limiting use’

sonic pebble
limpid rapids
#

Its actually kind of a regular theme of your posts, you only look at X or Y or Z situation, but not A-W, treating the things your looking at in a vacuum instead of holistically

spare tangle
#

I love the endurance there is very little id change about it its not that easy to catch

#

Extra sig radius from extenders or not im cloaked and going 600m/s and can insta warp after i uncloak and i have 20.000 Ehp if i nees to crash a gate

limpid rapids
#

Only thing I’d change is, CCP give it (the Endurance) a full flight of lights and - 5% per level damage bonus you cowards, you were going to do it during the last really big Mining Ship Rework and then didn’t because people screamed about it becoming a ‘better worm’ even though it absolutely wouldn’t have because lower speed and limited lock range

sonic pebble
# limpid rapids Its actually kind of a regular theme of your posts, you only look at X or Y or Z...

The holistic approach is being operated within.

The Prospect does work...but its intake is the same as the Venture. And when the "Hunters Boon" patch happened...the Prospect lost its slippery capabilities with the active warp core stabs. And the Venture became even harder to catch. And then we had gas harvesters with barges...which has also put it in a weird zone.

It can't scan into sites...where as the Venture and Endurance can. [Although Endurance doesn't have any gas harvesting capacity at all.] It has access to ice mining laser x2...but it has no speed bonus period...and has to use them at a pretty bad mining cycle speed.
Yes the Prospect can signature tank on sites...which can allow it some really advantages. But I usually hear people using it as a Cov Op Cyno...than a mining ship.

The Endurance has its strengths and capabilities yes. But its also being held back in other ways as well. And there is also the fact many people do not want people to use them...even in their roles as ice miners.

sonic pebble
spare tangle
#

If a endurane catches you thats.. thats on you bro

sonic pebble
#

I still think the Expedition Frigates could have used a seperate Gas/Ice/Mining Holds system...might have allowed people to move around.

limpid rapids
spare tangle
#

An endurance would be just..

It would be like using a tanky tristan with a normal cloak..

limpid rapids
#

It does have a reduced lock delay but still has a lock delay

sonic pebble
# spare tangle If a endurane catches you thats.. thats on you bro

True...it would make it kind of funny for a zkill.
But people balked at it running in the abyss.
And is capable of fitting a bit more kit than the Astero which would have been a bit more oppressive.

I know you are saying...no one would use it for exploration...[looks over quietly] you can create a multirole Venture...that can not only scan itself into gas sites...but scan and hack data/relics depending on your preference.

Once players get to a set level of skills and fitting. Options open up further.
Never mind implants etc.

limpid rapids
#

I didn’t say no one would use it for Explo, I’ve used a porpoise for explo for a few weeks because I wanted to give it a run

sonic pebble
#

But I think the best idea of the Mining Changes...was the one that was discarded. The one with seperate ice/gas/mining holds...that would have allowed Expedition Frigates to operate a bit more aggressively.

limpid rapids
#

Lived purely in wormholes for those few weeks and didn’t lose it

sonic pebble
#

Thumbs up...good

limpid rapids
#

I’m saying that edge case usage should not be the main point of balance if its not a wide scale game breaker

#

Also not sure where you’re getting your info about discouragement of people even using the endurance at all currently

#

I’ve at the very least not run into it

sonic pebble
#

True...but the problem is the Prospect doesn't have scanning capability so its a much more involved ship to get to content.

The Endurances specialization and limitation to normal cloak only and the 0% speed bonus of cloaked up...does limit it as well.

sonic pebble
#

And the discouragement was also in place before compression change.

limpid rapids
#

That shows a lack of imagination on their part frankly.

#

There are cases where barges and exhumers are just the better option but expedition frigs are still solid

spare tangle
#

Give explo frigs onboard compression

Encourage long expeditons instead of little 20 minute ice/gas trips in them

sonic pebble
#

Maybe the smallest change that could be argued for the Endurance is maybe give it a speed bonus under cloak.

Prospect though could do with a utility +1 slot. [I still think it needs something to differentiation from the Venture...they have the same gas collection amount and cycles even max/min and skill.] Ironically the Venture gets an advantage because of cost...having +2 warp core stab inherient bonus...and fills up faster so you are getting the value of the hull. Where as the Prospect stays on grid longer to fill up...at the same speed/intake of the Venture. ]

sonic pebble
spare tangle
#

Let me spend 2 days in wormholes huffing and compressing before im full instead of just day trips in the prospect

Let me go get a proper large ammount of ice instead of going back every 19 minutes when im full

spare tangle
sonic pebble
#

But directly...not on grid.

#

And cargo bay.

#

ice mining laser is limited to expeditions only. [Ironically Prospect has no bonuses on this line of thinking.] Which has discouraged it being used in this role even opportunistically.

spare tangle
#

I would still just not use it for ice

I feel like merging them together would get it closer ro what you want milint

Just remove them both and create a t2 mining exledition destroyer that does both ice and gas

silver drum
#

Or literally having a medical crisis right before someone starts firing on you, in which case yeah fair enough, can't exactly clown on someone for that

sonic pebble
spare tangle
spare tangle
silver drum
silver drum
spare tangle
#

Only really the venture and prospect can fall to smartbombs so yeah and its not that hard to avoid it either

silver drum
#

As far as I've experience literally all of my mining related deaths have been from direct assault, not bombs of any kind

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Prospect needs a small ice mining laser cycle bonus. Currently the Prospect is over 3 min 45sec with an ice mining laser....with max skills...clean clone/clean ship hull. Max-Min Ice Mining Lasers are 140sec. vs the Endurances 43sec.

Reasons: I would like to see the Prospect get a little bit more usage in ice mining...being the only other option that has access to ice mining lasers. Its ice mining cycles should not exceed 65-75sec with out fleet boosts. Which would allow an Endurance to out mining a 2x Ice Mining Prospect...in near equivalent time.

IE Endurance can do about 3 blocks inside 129 sec. [3 cycles] vs. a Prospect only getting [2 blocks inside an equivalent total time between the two ice mining lasers] Allowing the Endurance to outpace the Prospect.

Suggestions: make sure to fine tune to the cycles so they are asynchronistic. IE use the absolute max-min under fleet boosts of a rorqual [IE 3 blocks Endurance to 2 blocks of Prospect over similiar time frames]. To fine tune how the ice mining lasers will do between a prospect and an endurance. Because then fitting wise variances open up without the absolute max-min. Still allowing Prospects to be used for ice mining or be a little bit more preferred.

restive bay
ebon turret
#

same way he makes up the 'hauling community' 'clamouring' for a trig hauler with 150k m3

#

he literally just makes it up and then says 'well ive heard lots of other people asking for this' in a very broad hand wavey kind of way

#

in fact if you read his posts regularly you'll soon figure out he completely invents a lot of things that simply arent true to reality

#

thus it's a total waste of time trying to engage him in a normal sane rational conversation

restive bay
#

Type shit

RDT_20250719_0540524798239486653712708.jpg
glossy nimbus
#

Feedback: MILINT writes brain-melting nonsense.
Reasons: I would like to see constructive criticism from adequate people here, who at least use the ships they write about and have minimal competence.
Suggestions: Block MILINT atleast in this topic

spare tangle
sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Review of Covert Ops Explorer Damage Bonus Removal. Since 2020 all of the Cover Ops cloaking explorers had their combat bonuses removed. This meant that Covert Ops Explorers lost some of their capability for Explorer on Explorer combat capability. And some players who preferred to use these ships in a hunter role, ended up not using these ships as much. And concentration of combat focused on the Pacifier/Astero. Yes there is the Navy Combat Explorers, but they have some unique problems even though in some cases the Navy Combat Explorers have more fighting capacity than 2020 Combat Bonused Cov Op Explorers.

Reasons: I would like to see Cov Op explorers getting a bit more usage outside of just exploration or covert cyno deployment. And there are some people who did enjoy flying combat fitted explorers while hunting other explorers.

Suggestions: Cheetah - Small Projectile to +5% damage +10% optimal on small projectile weapons for Minmatar Frigate bonuses.

Helios-5% small hybrid damage. + 10% scout drone damage [although originally it had a unique thermal drone damage bonuse] for Gallente Frigate bonuses.

Anathema- 5% capacitor recharge [because Anathema was a laser/launcher hull and still is]-although I would rather have a 5% laser damage. 5% rocket damage for Amarr Frigate Bonuses.

Buzzard- 5% missile launcher rate of fire. 5% kinetic rocket and light missile damage. For Caldari Frigate Bonuses.

These could tuned and modernized.

Also might I point out...the most braindead bonus is this Survey Probe Flight Time...I think this needs to be a hull role bonus...flat.
Same with the Cov Ops Cloak CPU usage bonus.

Removing those to Hull Role Bonuses is what is needed.
Shift all scanning related bonuses to Cov Op Skills.
While the Empire Skills do damage orientated stuff.

sonic pebble
ebon turret
#

please remove his access to the channel isds, for god sake

spare tangle
#

We kind of have a porpoise for riskey boosting

sonic pebble
#

for smaller corps/mining roaming gangs or intruder mining.

#

The Porpoise was to gain more compression options...so it would have its value...but the ORE destroyer fleet booster...would have shorter range and slightly weaker than the porpoise. [Wasn't really considering Boosh for it either.]

spare tangle
#

It feels better for a ORE destroyer to be what you want exledition frigs to be and replace them with it

sonic pebble
# spare tangle It feels better for a ORE destroyer to be what you want exledition frigs to be a...

Or...well there other option...was an ORE destroyer class hull...that was the test bed for the Strip Miners....so you have more mining slots than the frigates...but the fitting would keep you from combining strips or mining lasers.

you could only fit one strip....[no matter what you did] you could fit three mining lasers...but the ship was the "missing link" between frigates and barges....in progression.

#

of technology

#

Not sure if CCP would allow a "mini-barge" though...even though players do have access to Strip Miners at alpha...they just don't have any hulls to use them with.

Since alot of changes have happened since they were deployed before my time.

#

I mean...I am not against a ORE frigate -> ORE "destroyer" -[omega]->barges progression.

glossy nimbus
#

guys. its not tread about new ships. plz.

sonic pebble
#

Not at all...was just replying to someone replying about adjustments to Prospect/Endurance. Which I would like to see some adjustments so they are something the players want to do besides barges. Some people were considering just merging them into a new hull...which is something I personally don't want for the Expeditions...but that will be a future concept down the road.

sonic pebble
#

**Feedback: **For all ships. Indicate on the hull if the hull is suggested to be a long ranged hull or a short ranged hull.

Example Tormentor is a 50km possible hull by targeting range vs. Punisher being about 32km more inside brawling range.

Reasons: Make it more apparent to players that a hull is generally best fitted with a specific weapon range in mind. It would make for some easier inherent understanding of ship usage and more ease of potential fitting concepts based on the strengths of the hulls.

Suggestions: A unique icon...either for the Targeting Range [I would say use the Wi-Fi icon...one bar notes short range...mid bar is medium range....all three bars denotes long range] Or a specific icon for lets say rails/artillery/beam. [Missiles would be a bit tricky...but I think some icons could be worked out.]

glossy nimbus
#

Actually, to be honest, reading this topic, I realize that it's not really needed. Most of the reviews do not border on reality, or are written by people who do not have sufficient competencies. Some people are trying to protect their beloved ship, and to annoy the one that hinders them. I really want to believe that CCP will not listen to absolutely everyone. I also want CCP to have the courage to HUGE meta shuffle. I want really strong meta changes, not these +10pg +4 cpu -2 speed . GO BIG (c) Amelia

glossy nimbus
sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Tormentor Enhancement. The Tormentor is overlooked in the Amarr Frigate Lineup to a variety of reasons, even though it is probably a more flexible frigate in the Amarr line up versus the Punisher.

Reasons: The Tormentor needs upgrades so it is seem or chosen more often for PVP/PVE. I would like to give it more room to fit and modify itself for combat situations.

Suggestions: Reduce the Tormentors Cap Recharge time, even though it can fit a bit more easily it can easily be capped out due to a much longer cap recharge time.

Increase the CPU to 135 baseline.
PG needs to adjust to 55 baseline.

Speed up to 140m/s baseline.

From what I can gather is the Tormentor is very functional ship early in game and low skills, but as skills increase and improve. The Tormentor falls back into the background due to its functionality being eclipsed by much more harder hitting ships within its tier bracket.

I do blame a little of this to the fact now T2 small weapons are available to alpha. Even with drone upgrades...the Tormentor does get eclipsed by even suboptimal laser weapon fitted T1 Armarr Frigates. Although the drone bay does give it some capacities to control a fight or add more damage.

I am a bit loathe to ask for a drone bay upgrade for that hull. Either in number of drones controlled or amount of m3...or even drone damage bonuses.

coral night
#

See the image below.

Feedback Dread anti-cap guns are applying too well against battleships provided support ships are assisting the dread.

Reasons With this applied damage using anti-capital guns, you can apply for significantly higher damage against sub-caps than HAWs provide. What's the point of fitting HAWs then? Fitting HAWs is supposed to be an intentional choice to apply for higher against subcaps. The trade is supposed to be gimping your DPS in the event of a capital escalation.

Suggestions In the graphs above, the Rokh's signature is 60.4% higher than the Drake's. Because of how the weapon damage formula works, a decrease in anti-cap gun turret tracking by 60.4% would decrease the damage application against the Rokh to the same level as what the Drake now feels. I therefore suggest a decrease in anti-cap turret tracking by 60%. Because capital vs capital tracking still matters, I also suggest an increase in capital signature radius by 60% as well. This results in equal capital to capital damage but decreases sub-capital application for anti-cap turrets.

Notes about the image below:

  • All level 5 skills.
  • Command ships are Astarte (skirmish), Damnation (info for the paints), both with command mindlinks.
  • Paints are RF paints from a Rapier (a Phoenix Navy could be used with slightly less effectiveness but way more survivability)
  • Nothing is heated.
  • Nothing is abyssal rolled.
  • As shown below, target velocity is tangential to the dread. In reality, target velocity is never truely this perfect. Therefore, in practice, application will be higher.
  • Webs don't apply instantly. It takes time for a ship to slow down. In reality, this is the applied damage after several seconds of a web being applied.
  • The drake was intentionally slowed down by adding armor plates. The comparison of signature radiuses required an equivalent tangential velocity. In reality, the Drake's and Rokh's speed don't match exactly but are within 4 m/s of each other.
image.png
deep fox
#

the point of haws is that they dont need multiple support ships to shoot a slow high sig target
rokh is also the worst bs in this situation given its slow speed + massive sig, other BS do not suffer from this issue nearly as much
also rokhs do not engage at 100km
for cap guns to reach out to rokh engagement range they would have to be lr guns which you would find do not do the damage numbers you are seeing with cr guns

sonic pebble
#

And isn't the Rev...with its laser weapons considered the worst tracking of those ships?

dapper ruin
#

Da fuq

#

Slow the ship down to basically 0, so you can fully apply and slap it outta existence

deep fox
#

see what happens when you chose a BS to use that isnt mwd'ing with the sig the size of a small moon

image.png
dapper ruin
#

Also what with the comparison between a rohk (bs) and a drake (bc)?

deep fox
#

considering how many ppl were in here complaining that shield is so much better than armor

#

consider that the large sig of shield is a downside

#

as it should be

sonic pebble
#

Yeah...easier to get tagged

#

Well unless someone is doing something weird with abyssal kit...but even then its still signature bloomed from standard signature.

#

Although the BS hulls do have access to things that could allow them to negate that a little temporarily. But not consistently

deep fox
#

Id point out another issue with using the rokh as your example
the rokh is a very dominant ship in the meta right now
its one of the most used bs
if this really was an issue as you say it is
then clearly rokhs shouldnt be good
yet they are

coral night
coral night
#

And this issue is much more pronounced for hybrids and projectiles.....

restive bay
deep fox
#

Lmao

#

I clearly have never used blap dreads before

#

What ammo do I load in my pulse lasers to hit a rokh at 200

steep needle
#

conflag

#

!

valid river
#

Feedback - CCP should add the missing 4th and 5th T1 BS.

**Reason - **CCP tiericided T1 BS during the Odyssey Expansion in 2013. They decided to split the T1 BS in to three categories: Combat, Attack, and Support (think EWAR).

  • Combat ships: designed for direct fights, such vessels are usually found spear heading an attack force, or sniping from long range. Have great damage and defense, but poor mobility.
  • Attack vessels: Made for hit and run assault, or flanking opportunities. Have great damage and mobility, but average defense.
  • Support vessels: mainly focused on assisting a friendly force, or disrupting an enemy fleet. Have average damage, poor defense, average mobility

You can see this play out in their base stats. The Rokh is a Combat BS and the Raven is an Attack BS. The Rokh has 9350 base shield HP vs the Raven's 7700. However, the Raven has a base speed of 113m/s, 99.3M mass, and an inertia modifier of .12 vs. the Rokh has a base speed of 89m/s, 105.3M mass, and a .136 inertia modifier. So the Raven is a great hit and run BS fleet where a Rokh fleet can stay on grid and fight it out.

**Suggestion - **The racial breakdown goes as follows:
Combat:

  • Amarr: Armageddon and Abaddon
  • Caldari: Rokh and [missing missile combat BS]
  • Gallente: Domi and Hyperion
  • Minmatar: Maelstrom and [missing missile combat BS]

Attack:

  • Amarr: Apocalypse and [missing drone/neut attack BS]
  • Caldari: Raven and [missing hybrid attack BS]
  • Gallente: Megathron and [missing drone combat BS]
  • Minmatar: Typhoon and Tempest

Support:

  • Amarr: [missing tracking disruption BS]
  • Caldari: Scorpion
  • Gallente: [missing sensor damp BS]
  • Minmatar: [missing Target painting BS]

So each race is missing:

  • Amarr: Combat and Support BS
  • Caldari: Combat and Attack BS
  • Gallente: Attack and Support BS
  • Minmatar: Combat and Support BS
novel scaffold
#

I love how more than 3/4 of the posts here completely miss the point of the thread.

uncut quail
#

I haven't looked through the thread because it seems that threads are hard to use the search function with but has anyone brought up the skiff vs the other barges?

spare tangle
#

A few about the expedition frigs and orca but not much else about ORE ships from what i have seen

uncut quail
#

But tldr it seems very underwhelming for its intended role.

spare tangle
limpid rapids
#

Eeyup

#

Each with 100k ehp usually

spare tangle
#

Yeah so you cant just pop them fast either to get rid of the damage

Throw in 2 or 3 humble tackle ventures/endurances and you cant warp away either

uncut quail
#

Skiffs iirc are like 200ish dps with mediums iirc?

#

Without ddas

spare tangle
uncut quail
#

I have sims in that thread I linked

#

Just busy atm and can't go through it atm

coral night
#

This is with 2x webs applied, and the rev with tracking speed scripts instead of optimal range scripts, and the TFI spiraling in at 30 degrees:

image.png
deep fox
#

skill issue for the TFI then

deep fox
coral night
#

Here's the moros navy, the nag fleet issue, and the zinitra with zero spool cycles over the top of all that:

deep fox
#

93m/s TFI

#

how many webs you have on it?

coral night
#

2x. Said that.

deep fox
#

you should go kill some TFI fleets then tryingnotkek

#

Im sure it will work

novel scaffold
#

bros got vindy webs on them lol

deep fox
#

Im still not sure what you think the actual issue is
this is like complaining that a battleship with pulse lasers can hit a frigate if the frigate is dual webbed and painted
yeah ofc it can
if you look at the current meta, cap gun dreads are not preventing bs fleets from being meta
one of the strongest bs fleets in the current meta, the rokh, isnt being opressed out of the meta by the scarry cap gun dreads
so whats the actual issue?

novel scaffold
#

the real question is why would u spiral into cap guns dreads instead of pinging ontop of them

coral night
#

@deep fox Hey bro. Here's a recent kill from your own alliance's killboard. It's using a Rev Navy with Dual Giga Pulse Lasers to blap this Machariel, which, by the way, is faster than the TFI. Clearly, this is something that happens lol. https://zkillboard.com/kill/128513264/

zkillboard.com
Machariel | Yasmine Yuhn | Killmail

Yasmine Yuhn (Dishonorable Duel Disturbance) lost their Machariel in Arzad (Devoid). Final Blow by Sally Return (Infinity Avenger) flying in a Machariel. Total Value: 2,856,321,946.42 ISK

deep fox
#

two vindis on that km

#

wow wonder what happened

coral night
#

I'm aware of what abyssal rolled vindi webs do.

deep fox
#

and despite the supposed opness of the cap gun dreads

#

they barely did more damage than machs

#

what a great example to prove your point

novel scaffold
#

ya the cap gun dread did not blap that mach

deep fox
#

so again, what is the issue you are solving?
the fact that in eve online big guns can apply to smaller things with application support?
thats not a cap gun specific issue thats just how the game works bro

coral night
novel scaffold
#

surely the tempests in that sim have links yes

coral night
#

What's your point exactly about the vindi? That you need a vindi to apply that much damage? I think not.

deep fox
coral night
novel scaffold
#

wait why is the angle fucked

deep fox
coral night
#

In case you were wondering...

image.png
novel scaffold
#

ya see this is why you ping under the guns

#

it has counter play

deep fox
#

clearly its so OP its driving bs out of the meta
oh wait

steep needle
#

man this circlejerk

#

can we ban milint

novel scaffold
#

ya its just playing make believe when there a clear bs meta

#

like I said earlier most of the posts in this thread are just making up issues for their balance suggestions

steep needle
#

(milint)

novel scaffold
#

if only it was limited to him

deep fox
#

milint and milint aspirants

steep needle
#

granted half of the things aside from solving an issue that doesnt exist in the first place is also just

#

not related to ship balance

#

at all

novel scaffold
#

90% of the posts are made up issues or way outside the scope of ship balancing

steep needle
#

just random (terrible) suggestions

novel scaffold
#

if ccp wants useful feedback they need to curate a thread

steep needle
#

minimum zkill requirement

novel scaffold
#

just separate the actual feedback posts from the ensuing discussion

#

and delete off topic feedback

coral night
# novel scaffold ya its just playing make believe when there a clear bs meta

The claim isn't that this is pushing out the BS meta. The claim is that anti-capital weapons clearly can apply significantly against battleships. The weapon that is supposed to be anti-subcap doesn't need to be used. You can just use anti-capital weapons to do the same thing. So there is no real reason to fit a dread with HAWs as long as you have proper support. This allows anti-capital weaponry to stay on the dreads, who would otherwise be severely limited with HAWs in the event a further capital escalation happens.

Basically, dreads are both anti-capital and anti-subcapital with the same weapon.

deep fox
#

man that must mean ppl just dont use haws for thise fights anymore

#

checks zkill

#

oh wait they still do

novel scaffold
#

you can find that HAWs are infact being used to kill subcaps

deep fox
#

maybe handwaving away proper support as just a given isnt a good way to look at balance

#

hey chat, how long does a rapier live on grid with a bs fleet

novel scaffold
#

and the reason for this is you can get under anti cap guns even with the best support

#

not to mention the difficulties in actually providing that web support when ur not in pyfa

#

this is literally just how turret mechanics work

coral night
deep fox
#

damn PNI webs out to 100?

#

do share that tech

novel scaffold
#

what happens when they warp?

#

then warp back to a range you cant apply

deep fox
#

me when the enemy uses the time delay from webs being applied
us having to wait for them to slow down
paints applying
and then damage
to pre rep the target

steep needle
#

🐊

coral night
#

Bhaalgorn + PNI. Very survivable. Bhaalgorn isn't out to 100km, but still.

novel scaffold
#

ok u still havent answered the question of what do you do when they ping to get under ur guns

deep fox
#

if your rokh fleet ends up in bhaal range of a HA brawl comp

#

you are dead

#

cap gun dreads or not

novel scaffold
#

or out ranges ur webs

coral night
#

You don't just cyno them all into one location when you are trying to blap subcaps.

novel scaffold
#

and you keep the webber in range and alive how?

#

if the BS try to pull range

steep needle
#

Hope and dreams

coral night
deep fox
novel scaffold
#

if you think pni webs are an actual answer idk if theres anything left to discuss

deep fox
#

kids
this is what happens when you live entirely in pyfa
and never try your pyfa ideas in the wild

jagged panther
coral night
#

You guys are all over here chuckling like this has never happened before when your own killboards are crawling with these kills. Clearly, something's up. And it's not like I'm making this all up lol. I've seen all of this. Been in the fleets like you all have.

You guys just don't want your toys nerfed wink.

deep fox
#

Please explain why we still mostly use haws for anti sub then
Why bs fleets are not being oppressed out of the meta by this tech
Why rokhs are still one of the strongest comps rn

#

Why the idea of guns being able to shoot a smaller target while having ample support
A thing that is common across every ship class
Is somehow insane here

strange basin
#

Is it fair to make an OCD-ish criticism of the ship tree? Currently the Tormentor has no T2 variant, while the Inquisitor has an extra one. Following the pattern of the other main factions, the Purifier should be based on the Tormentor.

jagged panther
novel scaffold
#

ya this is not a phenemonen that is exclusive to cap gun dreads you get that right?

jagged panther
#

Like this isn’t an overwhelming terror on grid, it’s something that occurs sometimes

novel scaffold
#

its literally just how turret tracking works

deep fox
#

Mfw my paladin can track a webbed frigate

#

Ccp plz

jagged panther
#

Yeah exactly

novel scaffold
#

ass frig fleets countered by LR BS ccp pls fix

jagged panther
#

If it was the thing that everyone was doing then I’d agree

#

But it isn’t

deep fox
coral night
deep fox
#

No it isnt

#

If you think there is a balance issue

#

You should be able to point at negative balance effects

#

You have not done that

coral night
#

It is very simply: Can a dread apply against subcaps well with anti-capital guns? Yes. Clearly it can.

deep fox
#

You claim it makes haws useless and yet haws are very strong now

jagged panther
deep fox
#

Clearly it must be nerfed

coral night
deep fox
#

You see how stupid this is right

#

Saying x can do y is not proof of a balance issue

jagged panther
#

You can hit something with 1 sig if it’s perfectly stationary

#

No web needed

#

But that doesn’t say anything about balance

deep fox
#

Under certain circumstances an arty rag can kill an interceptor
The fact that can happen does not mean we must nerf the rag right now

jagged panther
#

My in my anti tackle arty rag ready to go roaming

coral night
deep fox
#

You don't have a point
You have still yet to say what you think the actual balance issue this is causing is

jagged panther
#

Because it’s not a balance problem

deep fox
#

Haws are still being used, it's not driving them out of the meta
Bs fleets are still being used it's not driving them out of the meta
So what is the actual issue being caused that you want to fix

jagged panther
#

So only by talking in the most vague terms can it sound like a problem—when it actually isn’t.

#

I made a suggestion probably 8,000 messages ago about a specific ESS change that I can tell you exactly under what circumstances it matters and why. I think it’s a legit balance issue

#

If I just said “any ship can die to marauders in the ESS”

Then I’d be saying nothing of relevance

#

And I think that’s more along the lines of what you’re saying: “cap guns can hit subcaps”

That’s nothing of relevance though. Any gun can hit any ship.

coral night
#

Discord sucks for this kind of thing.....

deep fox
#

(he didn't)

#

#1394667173192138955 message

#

Heres his first post about it

jagged panther
#

Dread anti-cap guns are applying too well against battleships provided support ships are assisting the dread.

I feel like the qualifiers on that kind of turn it into a non issue

#

It's kind of like saying buffer needs a nerf because it can out-rep active tank if you have logi support

#

Which is..... a bit silly, perhaps

jagged panther
coral night
jagged panther
#

indeed

strange canyon
#

it worked okay for some of the other dev feedback threads

#

but this one is heated

ebon turret
sonic pebble
# uncut quail But tldr it seems very underwhelming for its intended role.

Well before recent changes to passive warp core stabs...the Skiff was a fairly useful lowsec intruder...tanky could face some really powerful stuff on the grid and still survive and could kill some pretty powerful rats/NPCs that could spawn.

After Warp Core Stabs it kind of fell off of usage...then changes to the barges...pushed the Hulk and Mackinaw to fore...and the Skiff got left behind...although the cheaper Procurer is seen here or there.

sonic pebble
silver drum
#

Not only would it not make lore sense for the Prospect to harvest even remotely close to the Endurance's level but it would defeat the point given that so far unlike the latter the Prospect can cloak, so everyone would just use the Prospect even if its not as good under the basis of wanting more safety.

#

Which yes, properly piloted a covops can be nigh uncatchable

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Increase Pilgrim Target/Guidance Disruptor effectiveness. Since the the Curse is generally used because its overall neutralizer/nosferatu optimal/falloff/drain and not descan why not upgrade the Pilgrims Target/Guidance Disruptor power to compensate for its shorter range and power with Neut/Nos warfare. Allowing it to futher alter the battle space in its favor.

Reasons: to give the Pilgrim a combat niche and offset to the Curses pretty obvious combat advantages which make it more desirable for capacitor warfare and potentially seen and used more often.

Suggestions: Increase the Pilgrims tracking/guidance disruption power to 10% effectiveness per level.

silver drum
#

Isn't the reason stealth recon cruisers have typically lower strength specifically due to their ability to cloak, that's their intended advantage.

#

That they can go invisible, appearing out of nowhere right on top of people whereas the Curse and others can't.

sonic pebble
# silver drum The Endurance already outpaces the Prospect with regards to ice mining just as h...

You have two hulls with the same unique item. Ice Mining Lasers. One "definitively" is going to win the speed race [Endurance Ice Mining wise.] It also goes back the Frostline Omnivore changes...which were supposed to make Expedition Frigates Flexible Mining/Ice Collectors. [Mostly with non-T2 kit.] The Prospect and the Endurance were supposed to be capable of some overlap...but with distinct gameplay. The Problem is the Prospect is getting it four directions.

  1. Venture and Prospect have the same gas mining bonuses and yield and cycle time. [Maybe if we had gas mining rigs/modules maybe those 4 lowslots might make them different!] So from a cost and skillpoint reason. Why waste points on Expedition Frigates...since you can make some ISK from a now pretty cheap and slippery Venture?
  2. Prospect has very heavy logistics for getting into content. Where one has to do alot of work to get them on grid for content...mostly gas mining. Hence the argument for +1 utility high slot.
  3. Prospect and Endurance were designed around ice mining lasers...yet the Prospect...even with its cov op cloak bonuses. Isn't seeing as much action in lowsec ice mining...due to the absolutely glacial ice mining speeds. [Hence why I said minimum...full max-min out...should be 75-65sec . On a Prospect. Capacitor also plays a balancing role here as well. Prospect can cap out in some fits so it takes a bit of finangling the fit to work efficiently. [So even the ice mining laser speed cycle buff...could actually work against the Prospect...faster Cap Drain.]
  4. Prospect is losing its role because now the Barges can do everything Gas/Ice/Ore...and not break a sweat. Hence arguments for Gas Scoop Cycle Speed or even Gas Scoop yield increases...and Ice mining lasers being lowered in cycle speed a bit. Just to give it value.
#

Endurance getting a Gas Scoop Yield bonus...would just allow it to do some incidental gas mining...standard cycle...but yield m3 per cycle is high.
Prospect would be the faster gas cycle/yield combination. [This would also value it up over the Venture.

#

So Gas Mining: Venture < Prospect >Endurance
Ice Mining: Venture X ...Prospect < Endurance.
Mining: Toss up. Venture < Prospect > Endurance (yield wise). [But Endurance cheats a little since it can use mining drones.] [Venture can as well...but its a pro/con vulnerability.]

silver drum
#

  1. The Venture cannot cloak, is slower, and has under half the Prospect's capacity. The Prospect is still superior, as for its 4 low slots they're well worth it already. Allowing the pilot to fit for both improved mining rate and sub 3 align.

  2. I completely agree here and have suggested accordingly, it makes no sense from either a description standard nor gameplay for it to require pilots to use a mobile depot or use a scout alt. They are supposed to be used independently in extremely hostile territory, so for it to need help to do so is wrong.

3a) This is just outright wrong and you'd know that if you piloted them for even a second or read their descriptions, the Endurance both in game and in canon was designed for ice mining. The Prospect was not and accordingly is not used for ice mining as its not made to do so.

3b)That being said however now that you've mentioned it perhaps increasing the Prospect's cycle reduction bonus to 10% or give it a innate 50% reduction whilst keeping its lvl bonus the same to further its intended specialty. In addition perhaps raise its level based yield bonus's to 7.5% after swapping one for gas harvesting.

  1. Last I checked barges are still extremely slow, can't operate covops cloaks and are double the price of a Prospect OR Endurance. They're also much easier to detect and more vulnerable due to their borderline battleship level aligns, they have not lost their purpose at all.

Their purpose is to infiltrate places nobody would dare send a Barge or Exhumer, and they do it perfectly.

#

As far as I'm concerned instead of making them tread on the other's feet CCP should make them MORE capable in their own fields whilst ironing out the seemingly small issues which hinder their design premise, which for the Prospect's sake is its lack of a probe or cyno 4th high slot and the Endurance its inexplicable lack of a covops cloak.

sonic pebble
# silver drum 1) The Venture cannot cloak, is slower, and has under half the Prospect's capaci...

  1. Venture can be fitted with a cloak...if you are Omega. [Its not covert and doesn't have a speed bonus under cloak. So as you Omega Venture gets more options] -Ventures capacity works in its favor. Because it fills up faster...and then value wise is better. With the Prospect having the Same intake as the Venture. Yes it can " get more gas" but it means its on grid longer...than the Venture...due to the Venture filling up faster. [Also the Venture has more defensive capabilities and has higher chances of getting away.] Prospects also due to their lack of a drone bay...get into situations where some NPCs can lock you up and scram/warpdisrupt you to the grid. So they have some major downsides.

  2. At least we agree on the +1 utility highslot for the Prospect. [Agreed]

3a) Points to the Ice Mining Laser. {Prospect and Endurance} I have Max 5 Expeditions. I would like to see the Prospect just get a small bonus to the cycle time. Heck I would be fine with 5% per skill level. It doesn't replace the Endurance...it just gets a little more utility in that field and ease of use. Since its the other hull capable of ice mining. I remember my first interaction with them during Winter Nexus and being highly disappointed. There was at the time a [two mining lasers are better than one] more of a barge driver argue point.

3b) Yes any upgrade with the gas scoop would be preferred at this moment.*** Both the Prospect and Venture are 100% yield both mining and gas scoop...INNATE to their hulls.*** I mean maybe the Prospect gets a 150% gas scoop yield bonus. and a 100% mining laser yield hull bonus...that might just put that to bed. Or CCP finally gives us Gas Mining Upgrades/Rigs for Mining Frigates. Which would allow the Prospect to maximize via its 4 low slots for that option. No need for hull bonuses...or minimal ist

#
  1. Barges/Exhumers put economic pressure on the Prospect. They collect more and in mass. So why would you use a Prospect when a well coordinated fleet can suck down the gas cloud. And one can also buff this fleet through fleet boosts and further escalating the problem for the Prospect.
#

And vice versa the Venture also erodes Prospect usage because its Alpha and being slippery.

#

[And gets "buffed" by Omega status...IE more options to fitting defensively.]

#

Hence why Prospect needs some upgrades to keep it relevant in light of the barges/exhumers now being able to gas harvest, but also a marked upgrade from the Venture so people will want to use it.

sonic pebble
# silver drum As far as I'm concerned instead of making them tread on the other's feet CCP sho...

We are also forgetting something in our discussion here.

Gas Scoops have a 1500m range. [normally] so that negates the Prospects Covert Op Cloak. You can do some pretty silly things to extend their range. Like use a Mid Harvest Pod...for minimal benefit. 2001m. [just outside the minimum range for cloak decloak...but bump mapping on these sites isn't very precise. And there has been moments where CCP has made bump maps way larger than the target cloud...so that negates the cloak regularly.] -Hence why in the past I went with Quad Passive Warp Cores when I went gas mining for exactly this reason.

Maybe if also brought this angle into the discussion it would also shed some light on why Prospects are kind of in a weird spot.

#

It doesn't feel like a problem with the Venture...initially because no cloak option...but with a ship that needs cloak to survive...the range of the gas scoops being inside the trigger range for decloaking...put these ships at a higher risk.

Standard cloak up procedures work with "standoff" mining lasers and ice mining lasers give you that....but not gas scoops.

dapper ruin
#

Milint shut up ffs

sonic pebble
#

The other issue is the Barges pull 200m3 per cycle versus 40m3 for Prospect/Venture on gas. Even with me going full tilt insane. A Hulk will crush gas scoop equipped ships. 31sec 200m3 (x2)
versus the Prospect at like 8.22sec and 40m3. (x2)
31 sec...400m3 of Gas. versus Prospect needing 40 sec to match that in 5 cycles.

Now in most cases you are generally not going to see WH Rorqual boosted gas mining. [I would hope] But you can see where the math on cycles between barges and mining/expedition frigates on gas mining starts to become kind of a issue. Especially at lower fleet boosts. So why use a Venture or Prospect? When economies of time and scale come into play.

silver drum
#

To be completely fair the issue of them decloaking within gas fields isn't actually that much of a problem and honestly kinda expected, you have to decloak to mine or harvest regardless and a lot of ore fields worth doing in a Expeditionary are so chaotic and dense, and said ship so fast that you'll be decloaking yourself regardless before closing in on the rock or cloud. Chances are any enemy that warps in on you is themselves a covops, in which case you've been insta-locked and would've died anyway (If they don't also bungle their maneuvering).

Even so covops still provides massive safety benefits, minimizing how long you can be seen will always be beneficial and its why so many people adore using ships that can warp while cloaked.

Either way though my point of view on barges doesn't exactly change, they have entirely separate use cases to that of a Expedition Frigate. Expedition Frigates are designed such that they "meet the needs of the riskiest and most lucrative harvesting operations", as in those into wormholes, gas sites and Pochven, inferred to do so with minimal to no support whatsoever.

Sure a massive fleet of barges with support ships and under guard will outharvest anything else but they're supposed to do that. They're bulk harvesters DESIGNED to work well in fleets. Expedition frigates are well, expedition frigates, they're exploration frigates with mining lasers/gas scoops, they operate alone or in tiny squads to get in undetected and devour whatever they can.

Somehow though it took me until now to realize that Prospects aren't actually truly dedicated gas harvesters, even so I still think they should have their power in said field increased.

sonic pebble
#

Well the Prospect does have a downside though with Cov Ops...it can't use nullification...so you really have to be on the ball if interdictors or gate camps are in play. [Not sure if it would be a good idea to allow only the Prospect this option]

Yeah what do you think the yield be increased to for the Prospect. 40m3 seems too low for what it is.

#

80m3 -> total 160m3. [two slots]

silver drum
#

First of all I'd want a role bonus cycle reduction, if not the full 50% of the Endurance then 15% at the lowest which would be about 5 seconds per cycle, which doesn't sound like much but only becomes more apparent the longer it harvests.
Secondly? Make its mining yield bonus's apply to gas, because apparently they don't.

#

Also tbf to dictors usually if they're present you're probably in for a world of pain either way, I don't think there's a single ORE ship that can mount nullifiers.

sonic pebble
sonic pebble
#

no one

#

I think the gas mining bonus...needs to be upped...the base volume of a scoop is 20m3...so on Venture and Prospect it goes to 40m3. Hence going to 80m3 is my first thought on the prospect.

silver drum
#

I checked.

sonic pebble
#

ah...hmm...probably do both.

#

mining and gas

#

for the level.

silver drum
#

Alternatively the most improbable thing they could do is give it a second, weaker duration bonus... That effects both gas harvesting and mining lasers then make the remaining one effect both yields at unchanged strength.

#

Much like how the Munin is a weirdo with its 15% armor and shield resistance modifier.

sonic pebble
#

Or...maybe do it...weaker...but gas harvesting and ice mining lasers cycles...still clunky...but not stepping on the Endurances specialization.

So...Mining Frigate Level:
5% Yield [Gas Scoop + Mining Laser Yield]
5% Cycle Reduction [Gas Scoop + Ice Mining Laser Cycle]

#

Then the Expedition Skill just tweaks the mining yield upwards.

#

But I think the hull bonus should be at least 200% Gas Scoop though.
Or is that too much.

silver drum
#

I don't think it'd be a problem if it only effects the gas scoops and neither mining yield bonus helps it harvest gas.

sonic pebble
#

So 150-200% bonus hull wise for Gas Scoops.
with a 100% yield [unchanged] for Mining Lasers.

#

So we lean into the Prospect as a gas miner.

#

with secondary ore/ice capability.

#

umm...any thoughts on maybe a slight gas scoop range bonus...or DOA?

#

And the stupid ORE Deep Core miner...I forgot about that...you can't really fit those on Prospects for mining Mercoxcit.

#

T2 Mod Deep Core...but base Deep Core no

ebon turret
#

You will not change his mind. You will not get to the bottom of it. You will not get him to source anything he says. It's just a hosepipe of nonsense.

silver drum
#

Merc mining in a frigate... Can't imagine anything more torturous.

silver drum
ebon turret
#

Ideas for what?

silver drum
#

My beloved.

ebon turret
#

No, because unlike other users in this channel I have never used or really considered the prospect so I will not suggest changes

silver drum
ebon turret
#

Is it the gas scoop one?

silver drum
sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Updating the Prospect for better usage in game. v2.0
The Prospect needs +1 Utility High Slot, better fitting for Deep Core Mining Lasers [Especially ORE ones...can't fit a pair of them] and some changes to add a little more flexibility. And also to lean into the gas mining upgrade over the Venture.

Reasons: If the Prospect can fit or operate more options to interact with content it will be a ship used more often.

Suggestions:
+1 Utility High Slot. [Allows for fitting Core Probe/Expanded Core Probe Launcher.] /etc.
Slightly better CPU/PG. Or the Deep Core Mining Lasers need review and their CPU/PG requirements need to be adjusted. (Access Mercoxcit without using T2 Mod Deep Core Miners)
Increase Gas Scoop Yield to either 150-200% hull bonus. Leave Mining Yield hull bonus 100%.
Mining Frigate Bonus changed to.
5% Mining Laser and Gas Scoop Yield
5% Gas Scoop and Ice Mining Laser Cycle Time.
Expedtion Frigate Skill bonuses are left alone.

Not necessary but an optional upgrade. Prospect gets access to Nullifiers for traveling through hostile space.

silver drum
#

You dare defile my beloved Prospect by making it touch ice easier? REEeee REEeee

ebon turret
#

You won't get him to stop posting walls of ill considered nonsense.

#

Don't engage with him

sonic pebble
#

baseline.

#

I made sure to cross check

#

Endurance has much more stacking bonuses

#

Three 0.75 + 0.5

leaden oriole
#

Spicy spicy suggestion here:
Take all t1 and faction battleships (except the praxis), and give them /another/ role bonus, but this one for cap batteries (or add an oversized battleship cap battery). Currently large cap batteries give pitiful bonuses relative to battleship capacitor needs.
Currently the typhoon, which gets the largest boost from a battery gets +6.9 GJ/s from a RF large cap battery. Compared to the energy use of battleship modules? A t2 100mn uses 11.7 GJ/s, a large t2 armour rep uses 35.6GJ/s, a rack of large blasters uses up to 30GJ/s, and a restrained 500mn uses 24GJ/s.

sacred juniper
#

3200 are op

leaden oriole
#

I mean, yes, but the point was to close the gap between booster and battery fits

sonic pebble
sacred juniper
#

why?

sonic pebble
# sacred juniper why?

Because there is a gap...between 100-200-400-800- (skip 1600) - 3200. Now...I think that cap bat would probably fill some fits at 50% to be honest...but it would allow some flexibility with cap fitting if it was in game. 3200 is one for most other fits. 1600 would be a 2 bat option.

sacred juniper
#

3200/2 isnt 1600

eternal hound
sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Increasing Functionality of Concord Ships. The Concord ships have for a rather long time had some issues built into their hull type. Concord ships have a special "high security" rep boost bonus. Which for many players isn't used. Some rather oddly missmatched damage/weapon bonuses. [Hybrid/Lasers having 5% damage bonuses per skill] but weird interactions.

Example an Enforcer with Projectile AC turrets only is 303dps vs. 408 dps Blasters vs 333 dps with Pulse Lasers vs 323 dps with Heavy Assaults
AC/Heavy Assault are not going to do capacitor drain...but the Blasters are not really taking much. While the Laser Weapons rapidly drain the cap out.

I think the ships need a couple of small tweaks. Especially in the line of CPU/PG and Capacitor total amount. [Maybe even a unique resistance bonus since they are Concord hulls]

Reasons: I would like to see Concord hulls become a bit more competent and competitive for their costs. Even if they are "stripped" down Concord hulls from Force Majeur...they should have some unique advantages over mainline hulls for the amount of skills required to bring these ships up to "functionality."

**Suggestions: **Concord hulls get a buff to Capacitor so they can support weapons and reps a bit more comfortably.

All Concord hulls should have some sort of access to drone bay. Albeit smaller than most in their classes. [Pacifier can be debated [10m3/10 band] Marshall should get 50m3/50band]

Increase Concord Hulls PG/CPU for better fitting.

Concord hulls should be Even...4 slot Pacifier-6 (from 5 ) Enforcer-8 (from 6) sorry a bit of OCD fitting squirrels of having fits with only oddball placements.

Concord hulls should have innate Web/Neut/Weapon Disruption Resists. [Since the Deathless ships have it...why not just give Concord full on all three resists. 33% flat]

I think all Concord ships should have innate Warp Disrupt/Scram-Web bonuses.
[Buffs the Pacifier in the capability to tackle.]

strange basin
sonic pebble
safe atlas
#

Feedback on the Ikitursa:
Surgical strike rollback reduced the applied damage of the Ikitursa specifically and it is not being used nearly as much as pre-changes. Recommend increasing the base damage (or give it a similar extremely fast spool up like a Babaroga) of the Ikitursa, or roll back the changes entirely made on 2024-02-20.1 for Triglavian weapon systems.

sonic pebble
safe atlas
strange basin
#

MILINT means use the template! They will use a script to extract the suggestions, so everything outside the template will be ignored.

sonic pebble
#

Feedback:
Reasons:
Suggestions:

#

I think you have a good point with the Triglavian Ships.

safe atlas
#

Feedback: Ikitursa
Reasons: Not being used as much compared to past as a brawling cruiser. Surgical strike rollback means that the Triglavian damage nerfs in 2024 are no longer needed.
Suggestions: Increase Ikitursa base damage OR add a bonus to spool rate (decrease time to max spool) OR revert Triglavian gun changes from December 2024

restive bay
#

why would global resist changes specifically change anything about trig guns

sonic pebble
#

Well the resistances being higher would be of a point.

Although I would need specific ships in question to figure out where the hot spot is.

fading galleon
#

Has there been any chatter or discussion about making a t2 avalanche (JF)? This would be a huge QoL upgrade for PI related matters if so

sonic pebble
#

There has been discussion of T2 Bowheads...since Serenity server has them...I am not sure if the game is ready for T2 Avalanche. Because that would have massive strategic implications if were to happen.

#

PI aside...because of the ability move stations and their components around.

spare tangle
sonic pebble
spare tangle
#

Thats intresting i wonder how much use that would get

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Updating the Noctis Hull to compete against T1 Salvager capable ships. Currently the Noctis as an Omega Ship is not performing to expectations, and cheaper options can quickly negate any benefits it has over any other ships.

The only advantage the Noctis "has" is longer range/faster velocity tractor beams to pull salvage to it. But it has a very small cargo hold...which doesn't help the ship with much larger salvage targets. And the Access percentage of those salvagers fitted to a Noctis are about the same for a T1 hull. 85% [max] and salvager cycle speed is the same. [T1 Utility/Exploration hulls have the same 5% salvager cycle time bonus as the Noctis]

Reasons: The Noctis needs to be tweaked to make it a more valuable asset capable of collecting salvage of battlefields and content in game. Currently its cargo space is too small for salvaging large and XL wrecks and station wrecks. I would like to see it able to collect and clean up larger wreckage and have some marked bonus over T1 hulls to incentivize more Noctis usage.

Suggestions: Increase the Cargohold to 30,000-50,000m3...or create a unique salvage bay...that is coded to be filled by salvagers. [With same or larger m3. Due to Large/XL and Station Wrecks being larger than a set amount with salvage...using salvagers. This is not "scooped" salvage either.]

Salvagers on a Noctis Hull either need longer range bonuses. [6km baseline range...across all hulls] Why not allow 12km range to allow Noctis to clear grids a bit more effectively.

Or Salvagers need to be bonused to a much higher cycle bonus. [5% -> 10% only for Noctis]

Giving it better access...ummm...Noctis having upwards to 90% access on salvage...might be too much. [But potentially an option to hyper specialization]

Giving the Noctis Salvage Drone bonuses might be another option to allow grid clearing efficiency.

sonic pebble
old cloak
#

Sorry, I legit have 0 clue who you are

#

Which means you have 0 legitimate experience with competent wh brawling, or I'd know your name

#

Given the fact that I'd recognize the name of any wh fc who runs fleets of more than 10 ships in every single class

#

And means you shouldn't be discussing balance changes to the most overpowered ship in wormhole history!

steep needle
#

it's just milint

#

he's just full of shit

#

it is known

silver drum
#

Doesn't breacher damage bypass resists?

steep needle
#

yes thats the whole point

silver drum
#

. . . That's horrifying

sonic pebble
sacred juniper
sonic pebble
#

Supposedly Cenotaph has a 75% of HP cap.

sacred juniper
#

maybe the issue isnt in the ship but rather in the stale wh meta with everyone multiboxing 5 leshaks, maybe if wh babies get off the hole for once and play the game they can understand

urban pawn
sacred juniper
sonic pebble
# sacred juniper bro just kite it)

Well the Cenotaph acts like a BLOP in Wormhole Space.

Instead of Cyno Hotdropping...you are using Cov Op Stealth...and getting inside the 12km range for the breacher pod.

So even a Cenotaph dropping on grid within 10km of you is going to tag you.

But this point of reference isn't being discussed.

As well as the fact that the Cenotaph is the strongest in Pulsars/Wolf-Rayets due to those two systems giving pretty sizable bonuses to HP...which means Cenotaph breacher weapon is being positively buffed by its targets HP increases.

The other issue...is Cenotaph pricing is dropping. So its availability for attacking forces against WH groups with very spicey priced ships is going to rise. Meaning costs for ratting in WH space are going to raise...which some groups are not happy about.

#

Maybe Breacher Pod range could be shortened a little for Cenotaph...but you know some people would rather have certain weapons gone if they had the chance.

urban pawn
#

realistically the ship is excessively strong

#

but what actually makes it problematic in WH is that its perfect for the WH meta

sacred juniper
#

change the meta not the ship

urban pawn
#

I mean, yea

sacred juniper
#

eve players are babies especially wormholers

urban pawn
#

adapt or get left behind ig

sonic pebble
#

Against specific ships and fits...yes.
But against others ships its laughably weak.

You mean...a perfect counter against Wormhole Meta.

#

"Adapt or Die" manta

urban pawn
sacred juniper
#

manta like manta style from critically acclaimed moba dota 2

sonic pebble
#

mantra...dang auto correct.

sonic pebble
#

Breacher Pod can be countered by a few things...but that would mean metas would have to change to take this into account....and most groups do not adjust well.

ebon turret
urban pawn
ebon turret
#

'the xxx community has been really asking for this' - milint, any time he makes up anything and has to source support for it

sonic pebble
#

I think maybe the range of the Centaph Breacher Pod just needs to be shortened...and that might curb some of the issues.

ebon turret
#

Just simply say there is support for your random idea! Nobody will know!

silver drum
ebon turret
silver drum
sonic pebble
spare tangle
#

Just not dogpiling a ceno with expensive brawling stuff sounds like a good counter play tbh

sonic pebble
#

True

#

Either ships with higher ROF or Kiting Range will get it.
Although...does the web resist bonus...effect apply to Stasis Grapplers?

silver drum
sonic pebble
#

Well it was originally more than a Marshal for some time.

#

Cenotaph can also use fleet boosts...which also can make it a pain in another way...because if its the vanguard of an attack...it can buff itself or any follow up attackers. Which can put defenders pretty badly on the back foot.

silver drum
#

Because it was brand new lol, what do you expect?

sonic pebble
#

Almost a year + now.

silver drum
#

of course a brand new pirate faction ship with its first builds just coming off the production line would be dramatically more expensive than something that's been out for ages.

sonic pebble
#

Although some newer stuff has been much more rapidly nerfed. [See Edencoms Haulers]

#

day 1 nerf

silver drum
spare tangle
#

Its like a single battlecruiser basicaly forced into scram range

Id assume the answer would be drop like drop a chunk of cruisers on it

sonic pebble
sonic pebble
#

A Cenotaph can get a few pods off in that situation...which could mean some funny lopsided attacker vs. defender battles.

ebon turret
#

For what it can do

urban pawn
#

it has a 100mn and a web resist?

glossy nimbus
steep needle
#

would you be surprised if I told you the answer was 0

glossy nimbus
steep needle
#

fully agree

glossy nimbus
#

also. #1394667173192138955 message

#

I really hope that CCP created this topic for the visibility of communication with the public. Indeed, most of the messages here are Complete trash. and I also hope that the ССЗ will skip 99% of the messages here.

muted fulcrum
#

I would suggest adding milint to your ignore list in discord if you haven't already.

ebon turret
#

++

#

Whenever people reply to him it just spurs him on to post more drivel

glossy nimbus
#

discord still shows that there is a message from the blocked user. and I understand that there is a MILINT

ebon turret
#

But you save your brain cells the trouble of being exposed to it

#

You can mentally prepare yourself that what you are about to read is completely uninformed ragebait

nimble sage
ebon turret
#

It's noteworthy when he says something that actually has any bearing on the reality of how the game works, and even then it is usually by accident

#

Me and Sven spent several hours the other week explaining how damage types work. The other day milint was adamantly insisting that adding a 1ISK minimum payment to freelance jobs is an extremely important change to add an 'isk sink'

nimble sage
#

did he post misinfomation on damage types

ebon turret
#

Of course he retained nothing of what sven and I tried to tell him

ebon turret
nimble sage
#

actually can we move this to general to stop shitting up here?

steep needle
#

The intended purpose of the channel is shitting on milIint, otherwise they would've locked him out

nimble sage
#

how much time did we spend on shitting on milint

steep needle
#

not enough

image.png
ebon turret
#

(times taken on board: 0 results)

#

(admission of saying something incorrect: 0 results)

steep needle
#

if he admitted he said something wrong every time someone pointed it out he'd already be banned for spam

sonic pebble
# urban pawn ofc it can

Yes that 100MN Cenotaph has a chance of escape, but also remember its capacitor and other factors. The ship through its Cov Ops cloak can dictate how it can start a fight. If you bubble a Cenotaph Interdictor/Dictor Cruiser probably not a wise idea in the same vein.

A Scram will keep it on the grid/warp disrupt as well. It isn't 100% web resist...25% is nominal. [Although there are some event boosters that have in the past given stasis web resistance aka the Smuggler Blockade Runner series this was before Cenotaph existed.]

Even the web resist...isn't that big of an opening for that hull. So one earlier comment of kiting them out...is probably a much more honest statement. But it might come down to how many ships you can field as a response to a Cenotaph being on grid.

ebon turret
#

Pov: nothing that was said was comprehended

restive bay
#

which is why he cannot comprehend that the entire game is built on pretty simple formulas

#

that are pretty much all on the wiki lol

spare tangle
sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Upgrading the Primae to its role. Originally the Primae was given out as a special edition ship relating to PI interactions. Later on it has gotten some upgrades namely 10,000m3 Gas/Ice Holds. But its baseline cargo hold and planetary cargo hold were not updated to keep up with the times.

It also is considered a "wormhole functional" light freighter...lower mass etc. However many changes have made this hull more of a historical novelty than a functional hull. It can't scan in or out of wormhole space. And in the face of custom office placement its lack of a mid slot for propulsion leaves it at severe disadvantages. [Some Custom Offices are completely off the warp grid...making the Porpoise unusable in many situations by default]

Also the upgrading the Gallente Epithal PI Hauler to carry 6 Planetary Command HQs in a Command HQ bay also rapidly obsoleted the hull. [changes to PI interact etc.]

Reasons: Trying to get the Primae into at least lower usage by smaller corps or at least some WH daytrippers/haulers would be of interest.

Suggestions: +1 Highslot allows for scan in capability or utility. [Also survey probe scanning] [Debate on allowing Nullifier could be had]
+1 Midslot allows Prop Mod fitting.
Increase cargo bay to 5000-10,000m3
increase planetary interaction bay to 5000-10,000m3
increase planetary HQ bay to hold +1 planetary Command HQ (Or leave it be)

sonic pebble
# spare tangle Something something 25% web resist 100mn AB Being able to be kept on grid due...

Against even a small force of responders...Cenotaph could be kept from leaving the scene of the attack and kited out. The options for defense are kind of being slowly but surely removed. Or have negative side effect that would further degrade the Cenotaph. [warp core stab cuts its drone bay in half] cuts its targeting range down and even its targeting speed. Its kind of slow for its class in targeting locks.

ebon turret
#

Anyway we are now onto another totally unrelated topic

#

Ooh we jumped back to totally irrelevant factors such as how the cenos scan res compares to other BCs

#

Quick detour into Primae before some quick MILINT brand pattern analysis reveals that the ceno doesn't have great scan res (actually I fact checked this by comparing it to Drake navy, hurricane fleet, brutix navy, and harb navy, and ceno has equal or better scan res to all 4)

#

So in fact the "analysis" about ceno having bad scan res was not only completely irrelevant, he also just totally made it up! Classic milint

#

What will be the next random detour of gibberish? Place your bets

void geyser
restive bay
#

and that this should be 'factored in' when balancing the base damage of hybrid ammo

novel scaffold
#

or the classic 17bil officer fit probe fleet

restive bay
#

so its tech

silent barn
#

I have stopped reading those posts 9 months ago

#

Hello friends

#

I wanted to let you know that we have submitted this feedback in this thread to CCP!

#

Hopefully we can get changes done but if u guys have more feedback, keep posting

steep needle
#

#1394667173192138955 message was this feedback put through as well

sonic pebble
silent barn
#

Except scammers in Snuffed Out

#

and @elder hollow

restive bay
devout sage
#

Yes, I'm still thinking about the titan problems. And here's what I came to:
Within the TiDi and UI mechanic, a titan cannot turn on overheating in time while aiming and shooting at it with DDs from other titans. Yes, you can see the mask lock and turn on overheating, but if they start shooting with regular guns, you'll have to turn it off, and later you physically won't be able to see in the UI that they're shooting at you and, as a result, you won't be able to turn on overheating, which gives a SIGNIFICANT increase in ehp. At the same time, increase the DD preparation time by 15 seconds (since on average, shield/armor modules work for 12 seconds). Maybe give a more intelligible UI display that a "weapon of death" is flying at you? Maybe there is another solution to this titan problem, but this one seems logical to me.

ebon turret
#

perhaps you could accept that tidi is a solution to the game attempting to accommodate numbers of players beyond what the hardware is capable of and thus some losses in mechanic functionality are to be expected, and if it's such a huge problem, engage in non-tidi gameplay

devout sage
restive bay
#

they were talking about the network throughput of the auxiliary server called quasar

ebon turret
#

90Hz eve online 💀

#

will increase stability many times over

#

💀

#

brother does not realise game is currently 1Hz

#

💀

devout sage
# restive bay they were talking about the network throughput of the auxiliary server called qu...

If Quasar can provide 90Hz traffic for 500 players on a small-scale test server running just three nodes, what could it do if scaled up to the full power of 230 Tranquility nodes with 30,000 active players?

What happens if simulation frames themselves follow the same paradigm?

What happens if simulation frames no longer have to wait a full second to be sent?

What implications does this have for Time Dilation? Does the meta shift when battles are fought real time at scale?

If the fidelity of the network can be increased 90-fold, what new experiences can the designers bring to the pilots of New Eden?

devout sage
spare tangle
devout sage
restive bay
#

if you want to be able to heat, then have them off and pre-heated

#

or use passive modules

#

thise doesnt have anything to do with tidi

south moss
#

Has CCP Okami rage-uninstalled discord yet?

restive bay
devout sage
devout sage
restive bay
#

the cycle time of most active hardeners is longer than the damage delay of doomsdays

#

if you are unlucky you wont be able ot heat

#

if you leave them running

#

its as simple as that

devout sage
#

You say:

if you want to be able to heat, then have them off and pre-heated,

but how will you understand that you are being shot with DD and not a regular weapon?

restive bay
#

you can technically look for hte animation

restive bay
#

and they drop a titan

devout sage
restive bay
devout sage
restive bay
#

yep, so you just gotta heat and pray

devout sage
restive bay
#

you arent supposed to have perfect info in eve

#

thats part of the game

restive bay
devout sage
restive bay
#

maybe try flying an armor titan @devout sage

#

where less of your ehp comes from active modules

devout sage
restive bay
#

i was there, im aware of the few titans that were saved

steep needle
#

"was he there" the new alternative to "does he know"

restive bay
devout sage
# restive bay maybe try flying an armor titan <@576466621628022797>

I know that Titan armor is 20-40% less tanky, but I'm more scared by the statement "We are aware that there are a number of challenges regarding the tankiness of Battleships/Supers/Titans after our Surgical Strike revert. We'll be taking a look at these and deciding on some adjustments we may want to make in the Major Update". But first: Maybe I'll buy Titan to start with, so that I can talk not only about the problems I have with the surfaces or those my friends have said, but also about those that arise when using them myself?)

restive bay
#

i think it did during m2 round 1 as well

devout sage
restive bay
#

there are tradeoffs

#

why does that statement scare you then?

devout sage
devout sage
astral stone
#

Feedback: I would like to propose a increase in FAX self tanking. I previously investigated 3 different avenues to making self tanking fax's better.

Reasons: Currently self tanking faxes in most situations are folded over by a single zirn at 10-30km's with any amount of neuts applied to them if they also need to rep the subcapital fleet.
Suggestions

  1. effecting capital self rep module tank numbers
  • con: makes self tanking dreads more likely to survive against a double zirn attack and makes tanking double PNI almost a breeze
  • benefit: makes fax's able to tank 1 zirn and a decent number of sub capital ships but still keeps it vulnerable to double zirns.
  • Ships effected: All Caps, supers, and titans,
  • more likely to be effected: Crab dreads, J-space ratting dreads, j-space fax's, initial fight fax's, ratting carriers
  • Least likely to be effected: supers, titans, brawl dreads, brawl fax's, pantheon carriers
  1. effecting fax gj/s regen
    I decided on gj/s regen and not capacitor pool to reduce the effect that it would have on buffer fax's because a increased cap pool will have a direct proportional effect on how long buffer fax's in tidi brawls and in low-sec escalations will be able to rep before encountering inject remote repping.

A increase in gj/s regen will only effect ships where they are looking to maintain cap stability and not maximize time on grid with EHP against a utterly overwhelming amount of dps on grid.
Thus, the only ships effected will be initial cap stable fax's (very rare but might be more common), and j-space brawl fax's

These numbers are very unwieldy because of the absolute fine tuning you need to achieve reduction in needed cap modules to allow more tank to happen or reduce the average j-space brawl fax's cost to be able to stomach losing to double zirn response without allowing k-space buffer fax's to significantly benefit from the increase gj/s regen

  1. The effect I think has the most possibilities for a CCP buy in
    Effecting Triage Module self rep bonus add an additional reduction in capacitor used for active cap usage self-repair modules (Concord Capital shield booster/Capital Armore Repairer II)
  • Capital effected: triage only
    • Subtypes effected: J-space brawl fax's and initial faxes in a fight allowing them to tank 1 zirn and some subcapital dps and allow for possible mitigation against double zirn responses from enemies. The reduced cap usage for self tank allows the reduction from meta 14 cap power relays and high grade raptures to hopefully meta 11 cap powe relays and mid-grade raptures bringing an acceptable j-space brawl fax from a massive 45b expense to a more realistic 20ish bil expense that wont be insta gimpged by a double zirn headshot strategy. Or allows the dropping of a mid/low slot cap module for more tank. For low-sec fax's it gives a much more stability with single inject, inject repping forcing bigger escalations or allowing a medium sized group to exist with a single fax on grid for longer.
sonic pebble
astral stone
#

I do have discord nitro, and updated

sonic pebble
#

number 3 might not go through...but lets see.

astral stone
#

its the change with the narrowest and easiest to tweak scope.

sonic pebble
#

Well...meaning being read when they cross reference the thread.
Number 3...is on a seperate post.

#

There we go

astral stone
#

got it on a single post, earlier it was getting auto modd'ed for some reason

sonic pebble
#

👍

coral night
# astral stone **Feedback:** I would like to propose a increase in FAX self tanking. I previous...

In k-space, the minimum number of dreads you have to drop on a FAX to quickly clear it from the field provided it previously didn't have long-term cap pressure is governed by the FAX's maximum active tank. Without dropping Zirns and waiting for them to spool up, you need quite a few dreads. For reference, the Mino can tank for 100k DPS heated. So it has quite high tank over short periods. This increases the minimum number of dreads dropped (and your exposure on the field) substantially. Because increasing the active tank on the FAX substantially raises the bar for a minimum initial dread drop, I'd say that some FAXes need no additional active tank.

The passive cap regeneration suggestion sounds much better. This way, passive cap regeneration fits benefit the most. Although, adding less cap needs would be less desirable because some fits need to make rep amount sacrifices to be cap stable. A lot of FAX fits rely substantially on their passive cap regeneration as well as 3200 cap boosters to maintain their needed GJ/s amount.

The thing that makes me scratch my head though is that neut pressure combined with DPS pressure is supposed to be the hard-counter for active tanked ships. Isn't the Zirn and support fleet..... doing its intended job? I mean, the Zirn is obviously op, but as for a ship in that role, it's doing precisely what it is designed for.

astral stone
# coral night In k-space, the minimum number of dreads you have to drop on a FAX to quickly cl...

The thing is a single zirn and 2 bhaalgorns with maybe 15-20 additional heavy neuts is enough to turn off a 45b active rep fax with meta 14 mods and a high grade rapture pod with 6%’s. Before the proliferation of zirns in space it used to be 5-6 bhaalgorns and 2 PNI’s sitting on a fax’s face before it would start to break. The problem is that specifically j-space when I created these notes you are strictly limited to 3 caps and if the Enemy just brought 2 zirns there is no fit in this universe that will tank it sustained. Now should the fax be able to perma tank 2 zirns? Unequivocally No, it should not be able to do that but it should also not just fold over at 50k with some moderate neuts on it. The other option is that 50k dps sustained tank is acceptable but you need to make the regen better to not have to have 45b fax’s able to tank 24b of zirns for less than 2 minutes.

#

So options at high level low capital numbers is either better tank, or cheaper fits for said tank

coral night
#

So if long-term sustainable 50k tank is what you think is fair, why wouldn't making the FAX 100% impervious to neuts, but tuned to have no more than 50k tank sustainably not be an option?

I say that because applying neut pressure to a FAX in k-space is no easy feat. You can cyno a FAX on to grid wherever you want (far away from Bhaalgorns), then, if the Bhaalgorns approach your FAX, they have shit angular velocity, so are easy prey to subcaps with artillery or dreads wishing to blap. Maybe the bhaals can bounce to a tactical, but if they are otherwise pointed, scrammed, or bubbled, you'll lose bhaals in this process. Then, if the bhaals ever get on top of you, it takes time to cap you out (several minutes). Then, the FAX can still tank a bit even with zero cap by boosting 3200 GJ, then instantly activating reps which take less than that. Then, say your FAX has failed. You can always cyno in another 50km away, causing the bhaals to burn again. So capping out a FAX isn't impossible but I consider it a lost cause. It takes too much time. It can happen if the battle is already "won" or if someone doesn't take the proper measures though. That's why I'm not upset about making them neut impervious.

coral night
#

Another option is to just give the FAX a neut resistance per level bonus, if the neut pressure is something you want to affect the FAX but not as much as it does now.

#

Perhaps another option is to increase the Zirn's mass?

restive bay
#

not really the fax ehp/s

#

making zirn have significantly higher mass would most likely be a better option than to buff fax hp/s

leaden oriole
#

Feedback: T1/Faction battleships respond very poorly to passive cap modules, in particular batteries compared to boosters, and doubly so compared to the cap usage of battleship mods.

Reason: A heavy cap booster with 3200's gives 145GJ/s, a republic fleet large cap battery provides about 5-6 GJ/s on most battleships. A ratio of nearly 30:1. A medium cap booster with 800's gives 36GJ/s, and a RF large battery gives most battlecruisers around 10GJ/s, a ratio of ~ 3:1. What's more is that battleship mods use close to double the capacitor of their medium counterparts (and the amarr battleships don't even get an energy weapon activation cost bonus). As a fan of build variety, experimentation, and the concept of 'viable if not competitive options' - such a massive gulf between options is really frustrating.

**Suggestions: ** Some combination of,
1: Reducing T1/Faction (except praxis) starting cap amount and recharge time
2: A role bonus to T1/Faction (except praxis) GJ amount bonus from cap batteries.
3: An XL Cap battery (although this being released would mean having to also touch marauders, quite possibly in their slots if not only their fitting)

sonic pebble
leaden oriole
sonic pebble
#

So you think...any ship that is over 5K capacitor is struggling to take advantage of passive capacitor modules?

leaden oriole
#

No, marauders are a clear indicator that that's not the case

sonic pebble
#

Hmm...okay. Which ones in particular.

leaden oriole
#

as in which marauders aren't struggling? or which ships are struggling?

sonic pebble
#

Lets say both.

#

The reason I ask that...is there are some ships that can break 500 GJ/s...but I wanted understand the perspective. Because some of the T1 BS are about 300GJ/s in some fits.

So what is the downside point...you are thinking sub 100GJ/s?

leaden oriole
# sonic pebble The reason I ask that...is there are some ships that can break 500 GJ/s...but I ...

exactly how many slots are you using to reach +300-500GJ/s? yes recharge rate mods are multiplicative and without DR, but they start at like 5-6GJ/s a piece Even with 9 slots used up on cap recharge a megathron only reaches +193GJ/s - and that's without an MWD penalty. 9 slots is simply an untenable cost when building a ship. Now that's something of an extreme case as simply running mods like 2 reps and the guns with void only takes 96.89 which only takes about 7 mods... which is still kind of an unbearable cost... especially since a single cap booster handles nearly double that.

sonic pebble
#

Because depending on fit...Vargur can go 629GJ/s. But its not going to be as tanky...as the more standard fits. Even though it can run its reps full tilt without breaking cap stability. That is why I am curious. Although Vargur max Cap isn't as big a lets say a Maelstrom.

3 Mids-4Lows-3 Rigs for a Maelstrom...but that is also still like only. 301 GJ/s...and I am running two shield hardeners + multispec.

#

17K cap total.

leaden oriole
#

my feedback and suggestion isn't in relation to marauders at all, only t1/faction BS

sonic pebble
#

So whats the typical GJ/s you are looking at.

#

With the T1.

leaden oriole
#

a Maelstrom isn't going to be functional giving 10 slots up for cap recharge

#

especially not compared to ASB or Cap boosted XLSB fits

#

hell it's not even going to be functional compared to a hurricane if it's giving up that many slots

sonic pebble
#

Although the Hurricane can get to a higher GJ/s versus the Maelstrom

#

Hence why I asked about the 5K mark.

#

for Capacitor

#

And possibly you do have a point with the innate hull GJ/s recharge.

#

For T1 BS.

leaden oriole
#

the boost from cap batteries scales in inverse to the size of the ships capacitor... I don't think it's fair to arbitrarily assign cutoff values for when they're 'good' and not - since other factors like slot layout, ship bonuses, and itended use- complicate things.

sonic pebble
#

True...weapon combinations will also adjust that issue in some ways as well.

#

You think Amarr T1 BS are the worst offenders?

leaden oriole
#

the hyperion actually

#

a power recharger gives more GJ/s than a RF cap battery

#

like yes - neut resistance is a thing - but when it's not getting enough juice to run 2 reps without a cap booster or like 10 slots, you're less worried about neuts and more worried about the cap usage of your own systems

sonic pebble
#

Hmm...Hyperion is a bit of an oddball. Because with some fits you can go over 550GJ/s...and fit to have reps and hit like a mack truck...but you are kind of squishy.

#

Just going with A single Cap Battery correct?

#

IE tackle mids?

dapper ruin
#

why do you need to be cap stable

#

pve is easy to get cap stablility in and pvp you are almost always not cap stable

leaden oriole
sonic pebble
#

Well I mean you can tweak the fit down to a point where you can add more flexibility or resist as you prefer.

You can still get cap stab at just below 300 GJ/s

leaden oriole
dapper ruin
#

and rely on cap booster + charges

#

i dont know of many non-solo fights that last less than 2 minutes

sonic pebble
#

Although that argument could be maybe on the effectiveness of and problems of tier functionality.

Yes the sub 2 min factor is within parameters of "disposable [ships are ammo] participation" fleet fights. Which can be throw away...or require logi components to keep things alive.

Although to be honest, there is a bit of an argument with shields...with people using 1 tier higher than the hull size. Small -> Medium...Medium -> Large...Large -> XL. Although if you use Tier = Hull Size modules. The capacitor being cap stable for some content is fairly important. Although we haven't had alot of time since the BS changes to make an assessment if Solo BS PVP/PVE is in a good state yet.

But there is a point to be had...that Capacitor Recharge Times seems a bit overkill on smaller ships. [Apparently BC-Cruiser hulls seems to have the highest potential capacitor recharge capability.] While BS hull seems to be on the low end.
I can understand some tweaks...but I would be concerned if it would open up some issues with "always on" rep fits becoming a bit too effective. Although same said Cap Stable-Active Rep fits are generally looked down upon by the fitting Doctrines currently in Vogue.

Although maybe the interaction of Neutralizers and Cap Recharge could be discussed...because if we tweak this a bit too much...certain Capacitor Warfare Ships would be invalidated [IE if the regen per second is able to negate the Neutralizers total cap deleted per X sec Cycle.]

silver drum
#

Fun fact: its the only ship that needs literally no SP, even SOCT ships need Spaceship Command I to operate

dapper ruin
slow sandal
#

Feedback: The whole SOE line is just outclassed by other ships. No one would fly these things if they didn't look as good as they do. I would love if the SOE ships could get Interdiction Nullification so that I can finally live in my space Winnebagos without getting blueballed by random gatecamps.

Reason: They fulfill roles similar to ships that can nullify, so its painful that they simply cannot. I also think it would be interesting for a battleship to have interdiction nullification and add to the Nestors list of random niches.

**Suggestion: **Give SOE ship line Interdiction Nullifiers so that they are closer in utility to the ships that they compete against.

#

Feedback: The Prospect is not capable of being the stand alone, covert ops miners that it is apparently meant to be.

Reason: The Prospect currently lacks the high slots to allow a probe launcher, a cloak and both gas modules to fit simultaneously. You either have to offload your scanning to another ship (not all of us use alts), drop the cloak (in which case your better off with a Venture), or bring only one miner (halving your efficiency). You could also carry a depot and swap on site, but its dumb and tedious that a dedicated mining platform isn't ready to go out of the box.

Suggestion: Give the Prospect +1 high slot, OR give it a bonus so that a single gas module mines as effectively as it does with 2 right now. I wont be able to fit as many blasters this way, but at least I wont be gimped trying to do the basic role of the ship.

spare tangle
#

Honestly yeah giving the prospect the endurance treatment of just 1 mining laser slot and 2 utility highs would be nice

Fixes the issue just as well as giving another high slot

#

Ofc role bonuses etc needs some changes too

sonic pebble
fleet mesa
#

CCP Okami,

  • Please introduce Fractional Marauders (like you did for Triglav) but for all Fractions
  • Please introduce BlackOps for each fraction

One another big deal is Nosferatu vs Neutralizer.

Feedback: Nosferatu is much less popular in PvP than Neutralizer. It’s proven by 2x sales of Neutralizer vs Nosfa, price of fractional Nosfa and Nuetralizer, muraplasmid price for Nosfa vs Neutralizer.
Reason: Nosfa works only if your enemy has more capacitor than you have (Except Blood riders) which make useless if you manage your capacitor properly (esp with batteries). It is impossible to drain capacitor of your enemy to 0 with Nosfa (except for Blood riders)
Suggestion: if you make gradual reduction of effectiveness Nosfa when your enemy has lower capacitor than you with min efficiency (~15-20%). That would make Nosfa more useful in PvP for all fractions’ ships.

High-sec pirates make a lot of problems for all players by suiciding ships. It’s impossible to protect against them (I saw when they killed marauders with ~170k ehp).

Suggestions: Allow all ships to use Assault Damage Control with much bigger delay between use (10m or more) and do allow initiate warp with active module, but for those who specialized with them - reduce delay to existent. What it gives - it gives the protection against suicide in high sec, allowing people get almost invulnerability for 10sec. It will not have any substantial impact on regular PvP, PVE but help to buy 10s in case of suicide.

Please adjust Hyperspatial modules to give instead of % to warp speed give hard number (1-2 au/sec). modules make sense to put only for fast frigs now - I haven’t seen those modules in use for mid/big ships 😦

worn dock
#

not a great look when your feedback is based on such a misunderstanding

steep needle
#

milint vibes

limpid rapids
#

Oh its in a patch notes

#

But there was little fanfare around it

jagged panther
#

Eh, there was a good amount of discussion around it at the time

#

And if that’s the bar then no one can make fun of me for suggesting marauders have their bastion timer lengthened from 30 sec and lose their ewar resists and plate bonus

#

The vargur needs a cpu nerf it’s too easy to run triple ancil

#

My point is that “awareness of changes within the past half decade and current state of game” seems like the absolute bare minimum threshold for providing relevant feedback or suggestions

novel scaffold
#

if yout think triple ancil is the problem with vargur idk what to say

steep needle
#

It was enough of one to make CCP nerf its cpu

novel scaffold
#

the real terror of the vargur is the cap regen fits

steep needle
#

The point wasn't the reason either way it's about keeping up with updates

novel scaffold
#

you simply can not kill them with a resonable gang

steep needle
#

Arguing for changes to ganking when you still think it works the same as it did 5 years ago is dumb

#

Same as arguing that bastion needs to be extended from 30 seconds

#

Even though it already has

jagged panther
novel scaffold
#

the cpu nerf didnt rly make triple ancil hard to run

jagged panther
#

I’m not actually suggesting anything about vargurs

jagged panther
novel scaffold
#

wasnt it just to off set the added low slot?

jagged panther
#

Can check the devblogs or patch notes if you’re curious, it literally doesn’t matter though

fleet mesa
#

The problem with most suggestions is that everyone thinks they know best and are quick to dismiss others' ideas. As a result, it becomes nearly impossible to make sense of what’s actually going on in the game. Despite the vast variety of ships, fleet battles tend to feel quite similar—certain ships dominate while many others see little to no use.

Players tend to suggest changes based on what they want in order to enjoy the ships they like, which doesn’t always reflect the broader needs of the game. The game is packed with modules, ships, and components—but a large portion of them are effectively deadwood, and there are reasons why they’ve fallen out of use.

CCP has all the data to analyze what players are using, why they’re using it, and could make informed decisions based on that. But most feedback boils down to: “This is what I want to be a bit happier,” rather than what's healthy for the game overall

ebon turret
#

40 ship kills in 12 years

#

Yep that checks out

nimble sage
ebon turret
#

#1394667173192138955 message

muted fulcrum
nimble sage
#

What purpose will they serve, that isnt already fufilled by the marauders we have

lean sapphire
#

imagine 3k drone dps with 2 heavy drones....

nimble sage
lean sapphire
#

becuse the current one is not really usable at current prices

steep needle
#

for the low price of also 9b isk it will be mediocre at best

lean sapphire
#

i really hope they make the baba cheaper like there is basically no activity that warrants the baba being 9b

ebon turret
#

Make all marauders 9b

lean sapphire
#

oh heeeeeelllllll nah

silver drum
lean sapphire
#

for baba? eh yeah would be a lot better but 3b would be optimal imo

silver drum
lean sapphire
#

exactly

#

it doesnt really do anything to warrant a price above 3b

muted fulcrum
#

Only thing it really has is the armour buffer compared to the Kronos/paladin

restive bay
#

and thats not going to happen

restive bay
#

that wouldve been nice pre marauder buffer changes

lean sapphire
astral stone
restive bay
astral stone
gloomy vector
# 
1. Shield vs Armor Balance & Fleet Meta

    Complaint: Shield ships are considered overwhelmingly superior in large fleet combat. Their superior speed, agility, damage, and especially frontloaded remote repairs make them the default choice, while armor-tanked ships lag behind in utility and performance.

    Details: Many commenters argue that nerfing one popular doctrine only results in another shield comp becoming dominant. For armor hulls, sacrificing speed and agility offers no compelling advantage, leading to calls for meaningful unique benefits for armor tanking—such as increased buffer, more efficient repairs, or active resistance modules beyond the reactive hardener.

2. Overpowered/Underpowered Ships & Doctrines

    Complaint: Several ship types and fits are felt to be either oppressive or unviable, distorting the game’s meta.

    Details:

        Overpowered: Cyclone Fleet Issue, Ferox Navy Issue, and the Cenotaph are repeatedly flagged for excessive power in their respective roles.

        Underpowered: Stratios, Sin, Panther, Tormentor, Cynabal, Mekubal, and Mamba are described as needing buffs or redesign. Suggestions include revamping bonuses, improving fitting flexibility, and altering available slots.

3. Black Ops & Covert/Ops Ship Concerns

    Complaint: Black Ops battleships (particularly the Redeemer) are seen as a benchmark, but the Sin and Panther are widely regarded as underpowered or irrelevant due to poor bonuses (like the Sin's drone/logi focus). Conversely, some call for Black Ops as a class to be nerfed because of their ability to escape nearly any engagement with ease (MJD, cloak, cyno).

    Details: There’s sharp debate between those wanting Sin and Panther buffed to match Redeemer/Widow, and those who want the strategic dominance of all Black Ops reduced (e.g., shorter jump range, post-drop decloak timers, or other vulnerabilities).```
# 

    Complaint: Major satisfaction gaps exist around capital and supercapital balance—especially regarding EHP disparities, utility, and value-for-ISK.

    Details:

        Shield supercapitals out-tank armor supers by a wide margin; suggestions include reducing Power Diagnostic System (PDS) bonuses or buffing armor plates.

        Roles and power level mismatches are noted between ships like Titans (perceived as overpriced and underused), supercarriers (Aeon vs Nyx oddities), and various dreadnoughts (Naglfar/NFI vs Phoenix Navy, Zirnitra’s damage).

        The Marauder class receives polarizing feedback: some call them wildly overpowered in both PvE and PvP, with others defending their high power as justified by high price.

5. Ecosystem & Infrastructure Problems (Nullsec Stagnation, Strategic Movement)

    Complaint: The nullsec ecosystem, alliance staging, and infrastructure mechanics are seen as leading causes of stagnation and lack of war.

    Details:

        Ansiblex jump bridges without fatigue allow large player blocs to move fleets instantly across New Eden, preventing small-scale or regional conflict.

        Defender’s advantage is considered excessive: cyno jammers, sovereignty upgrades, and citadel defenses favor defenders to the point that attacking is rarely worthwhile.

        Broader calls were made for changes to encourage local staging, increase strategic risk, and reduce large-scale, risk-free fleet projection.

These represent the top frustration points repeated or deeply discussed throughout the ship balance feedback logs for Summer 2025.```
#

could only "read" the first 400 messages

restive bay
gloomy vector
jagged panther
#

If you’re not filtering MILINT out of the mix it’s going to be extremely biased with garbage data, just for one. And I think that only considering posts that fit the feedback format could be good. You could do more looking at the discussion too, but one or two hot discussions will inflate their topics

sonic pebble
#

You know...maybe there needs to be a bit more discussion on how to make armor ships a bit more functional.

Personally armor ships are generally having to juggle [Low -Rig] combinations. Where Shield Ships have Mids/Lows/Rigs to play with.

What if the Armor Rep got swapped from a High Slot to Mid? Or the Shield Rep to a Low? Would that have some serious impact on those fits performance?

#

Definitely the Shield Rep in the Low would kneecap Caldari Hulls.
While Armor Rep in the Mid...might make it very difficult for some ships with less than 4 mid slots to be able to rep properly. [About as unpleasant as a hull rep.]

But it might be something to look at and then maybe ask some questions.

jagged panther
#

Did you know there are other mids than shield tank?

sonic pebble
#

Yes...I was focusing in the variables of some ships having a specific advantage in this areas. Versus those who do not.

However, due to the Mid Slot region having alot of cross over with certain hulls and module combinations. Ships with alot of Mid Slots are going to have advantages especially Caldari with the Shield Tanking.

Those with Low Slots its a bit more juggling...yes they do have some advantages. But the ones with Mid Slots + Lowslot combination have more flexbility.

Now this is more apparent in Larger Ships...than in the Lower Level Sub Caps.

ebon turret
coral night
dapper ruin
sonic pebble
# coral night If this game could be understood, interpreted, or even correctly summarized by A...

And with the amount of fittings and changes to same said fittings and the ship balance. There is a wild variety of how this game can be played. I don't really think an AI could even begin to fathom the basics.

Could it say give a summary on a weapon system or a ship combination. [Points over to Rogue AI and all the funny mess that has been] Umm maybe...but functionality etc no.

Could AI maybe give us a basic summary of the lore of EVE. [Maybe.]

Could an AI maybe mimic a contract spamming bot...very possible. But can it mimic a situational dependent PVE/PVP pilot...no...not yet...and hopefully never.

desert adder
#

could you imagine if a software was able to do pve in eve zoop

dapper ruin
#

Then you could afk spin ishtars all day long...

sonic pebble
# dapper ruin Almost like shield ships due to their layouts and required slots have better dps...

I would think your assessment would be the opposite in some cases. With the Shield-Mid Slot ships...having better EWAR-Cap-Shield access...while Armor-Low aligned ships having the DPS-Rep Juggle.

Now if you are putting an arbitrary straight jacket of a specific stat aligned doctrine [IE shield/armor...and then dictating to get to that shield/armor set up regardless of the hull type] Then there is a bit of a limited variety.

But EVE has alot of major variables and stats that can be manipulated or used outside of the Dogma of only two camps of thinking.

If you go Shield <-> You are having to deal with Signature Penalties. If you go Armor <-> You are dealing with Speed Penalties and Mass. [which is important to WH travel and access.] And further adding matters on this...MWD [Shield already has penalties to signature so using MWD just makes you a bigger target.] AB [Armor ships if they are already slow due to penalties...isn't much of a benefit. Although in a weird note here there is an interesting problem with align times for cruiser hulls with 100AB vs BS hulls.]

sonic pebble
# dapper ruin Then you could afk spin ishtars all day long...

That is the difference between ratting and PVE...PVE missions-escalations require input. Ratting on the other hand can and has been automated. [With AI that will probably only get easier.] Which is going to necessitate a couple changes to offset this issue. [We already see some. But randomizing content in the ratting sites...might frustrate players just as much as the bots]

dapper ruin
#

Quit trying to make problems where there are none

sonic pebble
# dapper ruin Why tf would shields have better ewar. Shield ships are typically higher dps tha...

And that is where the nullsec doctrine comes into play.

Notice you are using the ships in a specific way to maximize dps for that hull. Shield ship...and using its lows for dps. [How many lows?]

Vs. an Armor ship...using its low slots to maximize its tank...but gaining EWAR-Also Cap opportunity or limitation. [How many mid slots?]

Lets say you take a Raven, Typhoon, Hyperion, or an Armageddon and you fit these ships to those specifications.

If you go shield/armor turret vs. shield/armor launchers there is some big differences in dps...just as a point. But also a wild variance in capabilities. I chose these four by their slot layouts because these give them a bit of overlap in those doctrinal thoughts.

Hyperion would be the outlier with a pretty good hybrid weapon bonus...but these ships can overlap pretty well in fittings. So these ships could fulfill both these criteria.

#

In the case of the Hyperion though...due to its bonus...it gets more freedom to fit to armor/shield doctrinal thought.

ebon turret
#

@dapper ruin please

dapper ruin
ebon turret
#

Just stop encouraging him

gloomy vector
#

Who are you talking to?

nimble sage
novel scaffold
#

someone thought they were a match for milint 😔

iron nexus
#

Honestly shield ships should have worse projection than armor ships.
Shield ships generally out range their armor counterparts despite not having to use any of their mid slots for that projection. Add in the greater DPS and mobility of shield fits, it’s a no brainer as to why shield is the preferred meta for subcaps.

My suggestion is to make armor designed ships be able to out project their shield counterparts, and reduce the projection of shield designed ships.

Shield doctrines could still be more mobile and put out more DPS than armor ships, but would have to be closer to the slower, but more EWAR heavy armor doctrines.

#

Tank wise either armor needs to be increased or shield needs to be decreased, the current disparity is too much, especially in the super/titan metas

dire flume
devout sage
sonic pebble
# iron nexus Honestly shield ships should have worse projection than armor ships. Shield ship...

That is another issue as well that must be discussed.
Considering also a good chunk of the Shield Ships use missiles. [Generally longest ranged asset] depending on class. And With Caldari hulls you have longer range bonuses for hybrid weapons [mostly rail guns] on some hulls.

But yes the Armor themed hulls do end up with alot more juggling...and because of a lack of mids their range/application is more curtailed.

4 Mid Slots seems to be the tipping point...where such armor ships lose flexibility. 5 Mid Slots is the lowest flexibility

Now the Super/Titan Metas could probably be a problem due to the lack of depth in that field...less hulls. Where as in the Sup Cap zone...there is a very wide and varied composition. Which if a change to shield/armor happens it would have more visible and consequential effects.

jagged panther
#

The cutoff for feedback already happened right?

steep needle
#

Shouldn't have

fleet mesa
# sonic pebble That is another issue as well that must be discussed. Considering also a good ch...

Just imagine a few things:

Make possible fit all ships as T3 - adding a few components that change your ship from shield to armor, artillery to rockets, tanky vs speedy etc.

Having that, it would make PvP much much better - harder to bring perfect counter pick and allows to load ships just paying for fit.

Just imagine if you have module that swap low/mid slots. That would be awesome level of flexibility even with the same power/cpu as we have now

sonic pebble
silver drum
dire flume
strange basin
dire flume
dapper ruin
jagged panther
#

I must have been imaginging that I saw something about it then, disregard lol

jagged panther
eternal hound
# jagged panther At that point just make 1 hull that you can do anything with, there would be no ...

Full T3C style would be way too much. But I think it could be interesting to consider limited cases. No need to only consider the far extreme of an idea.

Think of a rig, that adds a mid slot, but you lose a low slot and maybe have some other drawback as well. So it would use a rig slot + a drawback, to adjust the slot layout.

It could really open up some fun fitting options. While still leaving hulls unique.

jagged panther
#

It does seem a little hard to balance but that is a more interesting idea certainly

eternal hound
#

or for sure, coming up drawbacks that ballance it out would be rough. but could be done.

rancid parcel
#

the primary reason for this is due to how strong neuts are against shield type capitals, also sig bloom. the tradeoff for relying on capacitor for said buffer ehp vs fully passive, un-neutable, un-mitigatable buffer tank.

#

just my two cents on the matter looking at stacking a bunch of extenders and stuff on a titan. if it loses cap for any reason its ehp eats shit, while you literally can do nothing to mitigate the tank of armor buffer

#

i will agree that fleet based shield subcaps are a bit strong

restive bay
#

which is usually
a) yes faxes? now you have cap
b) no faxes? now u have no cap

#

and in any7 reasonable use of titans, you are going to have faxes

#

so

#

also a passive rag gets the same ehp as a passive erebus

rancid parcel
#

and yeah you are kinda right about it being a thing of "you have it or dont" but at that point why not just make all forms of tanking identical of the advantages and drawbacks are too strong or too weak? armor is capless and unmitagatable, like multispec energized membranes, with the downside being increased weight/decreased agility. shield is stronger overall due to multispec hardeners but incredibly vulnerable to neuts. unlike armor it can be mitigated through capacitor warfare which is a massive downside. the sig bloom is eh but its another disadvantage

#

i think its good for the two primary forms of tank to have different upsides and downsides that shine in different scenarios. just the fact that you can settle for armor and have literally nothing be able to mitigate your tank, or go for a higher ehp option while being very vulnerable to neuts is the kind of tradeoff you see throughout the game. itd be kinda bland if everything acted the same

#

if armor was on par with shield, why would anyone ever pick shield again when faced with the massive disadvantage that is giving the enemy an opportunity to be able to directly influence and mitigate your own tank?

nimble sage
#

Should We Get Reactive shield hardener

rancid parcel
#

if you wanna make shields the better tank with massive vulnerability which is needing capacitor to function, or a lesser tank option but with no vulnerability at all

#

@restive bay maybe if you wanna get really spicy, what about specific shield bleed through weapon, or weapons that drain shields but pretty much do nothing to armor, and then a specific armor cracker type that pings harmlessly off of shields but is devastating to armored targets?

#

im just throwing stuff out there at this point

#

but your other points i do agree with, especially how strong resist bypass and DOT is on the ceno and the shield subcap fleet things you mentioned

restive bay
#

for armor

#

i do think its fine for shield to have a bit more ehp

#

however

#

the disparity atm is too high

rancid parcel
# restive bay however

yeah fair. i think it was just the reversion of surgical strike with double dipping of resist mods and buffer mods that really made it more apparent with supercaps

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Tuning Sansha Afterburner Speed Bonus to Align Penalty. Currently there is an interesting problem with Sansha Nation hulls. If you overprop frigates and cruisers with ABs...they suffer extreme align penalties for their class. Against similiar competitors the Sansha Nation hulls have aligning problems even in overprop. [Battleships...currently can not overprop so they don't really apply unless they get a much smaller align bonus]

Reasons: I think the Sanshas Nation hulls need to be a bit more agile for their class when using After Burners regardless if the After Burner is oversized. A Phantasm can be nearly 10 sec more align with 100MN AB...versus a Stabber with 100MN AB. Same thing goes for the Succubus with a much higher align time...than equivalent hulls.

Suggestions: The Sansha Hulls need a unique agility hull bonus...to make it superior to equivalent hull classes when using ABs [Afterburners]...I would suggest a hull bonus of about 25-50% reduction in align time penalty of activated afterburners on the ship hull. To allow these hulls a bit more agility in comparison to their competitors. Meaning if the Afterburner is on...the Sansha Nation hull will be superior in align time and maneuverabilty.

silver drum
#

What you described is literally just the consequence of using a oversized prop module on any ship, let alone a Sansha one. Also the align """issue""", which lets be real here this comparison is not fair to either party (Sansha AB's function closer to MWD's) can be negated by simply turning the damn thing off.

I also sincerely question what you're doing with a 10MN on a succubus considering the fitting requirements for its T2 AB requires its entire power grid.

ebon turret
#

for more info consult @restive bay

sonic pebble
nimble sage
#

hello @restive bay , I would like to consult for more infomation regarding milint, could i kindly be presented with the examples of him rambling about things that are deemed as incoherent?

sonic pebble
#

The main issue with this agility penalty is has a domino effect.
Sansha Nation hulls have a preference for laser weapons which are kind of on the low end of tracking. And this can mean some problems in certain situations.

To me the Sansha Nation hulls should be the ones with an after burner [active] agility bonus...so they can be used more aggressively. The main issue also is the agility/align also means they are not going to be able to hold orbits. The worse the align/agility is of the ship...at certain speeds it will mean it will be further out from a set orbit selection.

Hence why a Phantasm gets to like 34sec align versus a Stabbers 29 sec align. If you are going full tilt with 100MN. But when you attempt to bring this align down. The Sansha Nation hulls are still pretty bad. It even gets beat by the Ashimmu on aligning. And these two are beat by Stormbringer at 30sec.

Its probably something that could be looked at.

restive bay
#

woa

#

also sansha get a fuckin tracking bonus

jagged panther
#

If you want to use sanshas without overprop, try a same size prop

restive bay
ebon turret
#

i cant help but notice you guys are engaging with milint again

dapper ruin
#

Can the ISD just warn him again about his overly long, convoluted worthless post?

#

Tell him to either get to the point in fewer than 200 letters (letters, not words) or dont type at all

rancid parcel
eternal hound
#

This discord is about 20% complaining about MILINT....

#

....and about 25% MILINT posts.

nimble sage
#

and 55% actual ship balance feedback?

dapper ruin
#

If they were useful I wouldnt care

sonic pebble
worn dock
#

I mean one of them has to be the worst at aligning

sonic pebble
#

Apparently for the Subcaps...its the Phantasm of all things...with a 100MN AB.

silver drum
nimble sage
#

Plz make it so dictors cannot immediately launch bubbles after decloaking

gleaming anvil
# silver drum Battleships can't fit oversized modules Cruisers can fit them. Oversized modules...

Hmm…if I remember correctly, the Nightmare was given a higher bonus to AB velocity because it could not overprop, which suggests that fitting an oversized ab was at least considered to be a valid fitting choice and that maybe reducing the overprop penalty for the cruiser and frigate is an idea not entirely without merit …though as MILINT has articulated the problem, it just largely seems as something avoidable

…that or let the Nightmare fit a giganewton AB because it would be funny

ebon turret
#

milint just doesn't understand the actual mechanics of the game, that's all there is to it

#

there is no need for any further deep analysis into what he says

sonic pebble
#

So Sansha Nation has some flexibility in that particular front.

ebon turret
#

@restive bay

jagged panther
#

Of course, it goes without saying that 100mn on a battleship is a same size prop and would be a foolish comparison to 100mn on a cruiser. You know. If anyone was such a fool as to compare them.

restive bay
#

as the ship size increases, the mass is about 10x each step, the inertia modifier doesnt get 10x better though, it gets like 6x better, hence the worse align time

when using a prop mod, the mass addition of each size follows the same pattern

#

so when you use an "oversized" prop mod, the inertia modifier of the smaller ship is not able to cope with the HUGE increase in mass, leading to very bad align times

#

@sonic pebble hope this helps you understand

jagged panther
#

Unrelated, Siri what are physics?

steep needle
#

except siri are the voices in the walls

ebon turret
dapper ruin
sonic pebble
# restive bay <@841825014416015361> hope this helps you understand

Yes this understandable...however the Phantasm is still one of the worst cruisers with align times. I think its only out done by some of the Amarr ships. (Points to Maller at 5.87sec...but with ABs on the Maller out performs Phantasm. 8.08sec 10MN...28sec 100MN)
This compounds with ABs on.

Their endzone align for the hull is 5.57. (Ashimmu out does this at 5.67)...but when the ABs are on...10MN (Ashimmu goes 8.27 vs. Phantasm 8.47) 100MN (Ashimmu goes 31 sec vs Phantasm 34 sec)...while most of its competition in Cruisers is Sub 8sec [10MN]
versus most of their competition being Sub 30sec with [100MN]

huh...checks something
Ishtar...looks over some stats. 5.6sec. 10MN 8.25sec. [Sub 9] 100MN 32sec [a bit over 30 sec]

So Ashimmu < Ishtar< Phantasm in some situations. Actually Gila takes the crown of worst align. 36-37sec. Although Cynabal has the best Align of the Cruiser Class. 3.81sec. all other modes are top of class.

#

Maybe Phantasm is 2nd Last among the T1-Pirate hulls

restive bay
#

you will have your list of best to worst in terms of overprop align

#

excluding the t3c's

#

since afaik align time bonuses are exclusive to them

sonic pebble
dusty ibex
#

**Feedback **- I think the Tengu has fallen from being the most prolific T3C to being one of the weakest due to ECM nerf (which was good)

**Reason **- as an avid T3 enjoyer, I like variety and it pains me to see one of the best looking ships lose on use to the Legion/Proteus. For solo use, there is little reason to pick any subsystem besides Augmented Reactor while the Legion, Prot and Loki have Core Subs that offer enough utility for their respective racial ewar to be worth giving up the fitting room in order to fit bonused scram/point, webs, or to use a dissolution sequencer/parasitic energy sub on the Legion.

**Suggestion (Optional) **- I suggest changing the Tengu’s missile damage bonus to an application bonus similar to the Loki and adding in a target painter bonus to the ewar subsystem or to the launcher sub to give it more flexibility in engaging targets compared to it’s counterparts that can either use extended scram range (prot), capacitor warfare (legion) or ranged webs (Loki) to secure their damage application.

sonic pebble
#

ummmm...

#

Why not give bonuses for missile guidance/missile guidance computer mods?

#

Also Tengu isn't exactly really good with drones.

rancid parcel
spare tangle
#

ngl i was suprised it didnt cause a timer when i first flew a dictor i bubbled and cloaked up thinking id need to sit there praying i wouldnt get uncloakced 😭

ebon turret
glossy nimbus
#

rail sub is broken. yeah.
loki`s autocannon sub is bad too.

dusty ibex
#

Yeah Autocannon Loki sucks. I forgot about that one lol.

Wish we had 5% more PG to fit full rack of 720 or 425s on it

glossy nimbus
#

not only fittings problems

dusty ibex
#

I am so used to missile Lokis haha. That’s a good point tho, the projectile subsystem should add a bit more PG to it so we aren’t gimped on fitting a T3C

glossy nimbus
#

its have very (VERY) bad falloff bonuses (5% per lvl sucks). vaga is better choise for 425

#

stabber have 10% falloff. vaga 12.5% meanwhile loki 5%

dusty ibex
#

Something something got used too much and got whacked so hard it’s not popular anymore

coral night
#

I feel like a paint bonus would have synergy with the Tengu, yes. It's on theme since the Golem and Phoenix Navy Issue has that bonus.

Alternatively, you could go the Griffin Navy Issue route, where it has ECM drone bonuses. Or... maybe this is an opportunity to add a subsystem to let it do either or.

spare tangle
#

ECM drone bonuses could be funny Blaster tengu with a full flight of souped up ECM drones

coral night
#

The ECM drone bonus would be less impactful to fleet fight meta. More useful for solo. In a larger scale fight, the drone hit point penalty the GNI gets means that a single ship with a smartbomb counters it. Not something you see in small-scale pvp very much.

coral night
#

ECM tank lol.

spare tangle
#

Polarized Blaster max damage tengu with a full flight of souped up heavy ECM drones praying to RNGjesus while melting another T3C

nimble sage
coral night
#

The paint bonus may be too good on the Tengu for fleet fights. Right now, there isn't a cruiser size platform that can tank well and has a paint bonus. All the other ships get sneezed off the field. If you put a paint bonus on the Tengu, you'll see the armor Tengu replace the armor Huggin if it has more tank. Same thing for the shield Huggin.

#

Clearly, the armor Loki is already replacing the armor Huggin and Rapier even when it has less web range in favor of the higher tank.

#

So I imagine the same thing would happen if the Tengu got a paint bonus.

fleet mesa
# restive bay

Really for full set 1000MN AB and 5000MWD is required to be able overprop Battlecruisers trolldance

fleet mesa
#

What’s do you think about several modules that doesn’t exist for capital / super capital ships such as Capital / Super Capital smart bomb with respective damage and range. That would allow capitals or super caps to defend themselves from small range nano / small ships that caps can’t hit due to small signature and speed.

ebon turret
#

No.

fleet mesa
#

Another a bit crazy idea, but would be interesting to test among players who knows the game better than I know.

Feedback: regardless of the size of the ship and thickness of their shild / armor even nano ships can penetrate the defense. In real life, if you have armor strong enough you need to have min energy/ power to penetrate it to make some damage.

Suggestion: based on level of the ships and installed armor / shield introduce fixed damage absorption that will be removed from incoming damage.
For example:
Dreadnout with 50 absorption will not be hit with damage below 50 by each weapon, and only damage above 50 will penetrate its armor. Definitely numbers might be changed and adjusted accordingly to make it reasonable.

Expected implication: we will get a range of ships / weapons that can hit another class. In other words it will make impossible to kill Titan with thrashers or so. To kill big guys you need to undock another big guy.

Opposite is already implemented - signature and speed prevent to kill nano / small ships with heavyweight weapons

dapper ruin
#

Gimme a super SB that has a 25km range and does 2000 dps 🤣

dusty ibex
#

Smart bomb burst projector

fleet mesa
ebon turret
#

If you get caught in your fleet/alliance level asset and start getting picked on because you fucked up and either got split off from your friends or tried to use it as a solo ship when that's not what it's meant for, you deserve to be punished for your mistake

#

Yes, 10 svipuls should be able to kill your dread, it should take a long time, time for you to call allies given the use case of the ship is to be used in a fleet, but you shouldn't be able to kill them yourself and you shouldn't be functionally immune to them either Lmao

fleet mesa
#

So, your assumption is that some type of ships is designed only for fleet and no exceptions - otherwise you will be punished.

ebon turret
#

Yes, every ship in this game has a niche

#

If you fit a cap gun dread and try to gate it around outside of its niche use as a fleet anti cap dps boat, you will feed and rightfully so

fleet mesa
ebon turret
#

Ok well those people can have a cry about it

#

But that's not how the game works nor how it should work

fleet mesa
#

Nice, you can choose any color of the car if it’s black. You point noted 🥴

ebon turret
#

Flying your capital ship around and getting caught by a small gang is what's called a piloting error

#

If you don't want your caps to die to small gangs maybe don't fly them around unsupported 🙂

restive bay
#

or supercaps

ebon turret
#

In the same way flying a 10b marauder through uedama is a piloting error and if you don't want to get ganked maybe don't do that

dapper ruin
#

If you wanna fly your big boy ship around fit HAWs

#

Then die to a blob of Blops or Anti-Cap dreads

nimble sage
restive bay
nimble sage
#

He wants to fly dreads solo I think

nimble sage
spare tangle
#

even if you could fly a dread solo vs smaller ships youd just get dropped on by other capitals or something

dusty ibex
sonic pebble
rancid parcel
silver drum
# fleet mesa Another a bit crazy idea, but would be interesting to test among players who kno...

I oppose this on the simple basis that even the smallest weapons can bring down the most heavily defended targets in real life should you use enough of it, a single locust for instance isn't any threat to yields on its own but once those little pricks reach critical mass a entire region's crop yield is dead.

The Kikimora or bomber squadron in this case are the locusts, one is no concern for a capital ship, maybe even a dozen are of minimal concern (Depending on which one you are using). But eventually they, like the locusts, would stress the Titan or Dreadnoughts defense until it collapses.

sonic pebble
#

Feedback: Exploration Themed Hulls need certain bonuses to open the gap in the pack. Current Exploration baseline hack power is 40-35-30 at max skills. And majority of hacking and interaction ranges are 6000m range. And some of the more odd things like "cycles" for hacking modules seems meaningless now. [It worked for a different time frame and different exploration/hacking/salvage mechanics...but seems redundant]

The problem is Primary Exploration Ships [T3/T2-SOE hulls-SOCT Metamorphosis] besides having the higher hacking capacity. Its barely a 5 point increment vs. Secondary Exploration Ships [T1 and Empire Combat Explorers]...and there is another stepping point as well. These Secondary Exploration Ships are +5 over...Tertiary Exploration Ships. (UNBONUSED) many times they have the same coherence, range as the Exploration Ships.

**Reasons:**I would like to see more variance in how Exploration ship should feel from each other. We have a ship...the Echelon...that is unique in its innate hacking power and hacking range...however it lacks any way to actively scan into sites and interact in any efficient manner. T3 ships should be quantifiably better than T2 in Hacking. T2 should have "upgrades" other than cov op cloak...to make them a better option over T1/combat explorers...and all of them should completely eclipse an unbonused ship.

However as it stands, one can sacrifice 5 points in each step down...and still stay functional at maximum skills.

**Suggestions: **
T3 hulls...should have innate +15 Coherence bonus...and potentially higher hacking power. +5? They are the most advanced hulls with all the modern sensors and technology any empire can offer. Why are they [equals] to T2 kit that has been around longer than them? And their hacking interaction ranges should be longer. T2/Specialize Exploration needs longer hacking interaction range. T1 stays standardized

#

(Repasta in the Right Section)...original reshifted. [Wrong Sector]

#

Was in Legion Feedback by accident

#

IE T3 is 45...T2 is 40 T1/Combat Explorer is 35...non Bonused is 30.
But also the ranges of interaction for hacking are increased. T3 can hack out to 10km or so...T2 8km...T1 can do it at 6km with [T2 mods]

rancid parcel
dusty ibex
#

Mm idk. I think light fighters could more application to subs. Besides that I don’t think much else should be changed on supers/carriers

rancid parcel
rancid parcel
dusty ibex
#

Most definitely

#

Specifically, light fighters are the worst fighter class available

rancid parcel
# dusty ibex Most definitely

pound for pound when it compared to dreads, they are inferior in almost every way in a traditional combat role. they are far more expensive (both isk and SP), they can easily be defanged, they have piss poor application (even worse than a HAW dread, which is hilarious), they are far squishier than dreads, they have poor damage (even worse than a marauder) and they also lack any kind of anticapital options. this last point would be cool and good if they were the kings of punching down, thats what carrier craft typically are, no? but instead its just bad overall.