#New logistical and munition replenishment proposal

53 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

whole tangle
#

The last big update introduced vehicles and a logistical system to the matches that made the vanilla experience more complete. However, this logistical system created new problems:

  • FOB placing in front of enemy main base or deep into enemy territory
  • Quick FOB and fortification construction speed
  • Rocket spam thanks to ammo crates

These problems can be easily exploited by 3 coordinated players making the matches very unfair and frustrating since winning is determined by who places a FOB in front of enemy base or deep in enemy territory (as you can see in the image). this strategy once it's done it's almost impossible to counter since the only requisite that you need to build fortifications around your FOB is building one; which is absurdly quick. That's why i propose to make a new logistical system that solves the mentioned problems which i'm going to explain below:

  • Logistical truck-> it can gather 200 construction points (CP) max. It let squad leaders to construct FOBs around it and transfers its CPs to nearby FOBs. It can replenish CP inside Main Base
  • FOB-> construction costs 200 CP. It gathers 1000 CP max. It works as a spawn structure at full health, gets disabled at 90% health. It let squad leaders to construct fortifications in its construction radius. Once constructed, a FOB starts with 0 CP and can replenish CP by logistical trucks near it. If built fortification structures get damage, repairing will consume CP from the FOB. The CP cost will be equal the health percentage lost.
  • Fortification structures CP costs: HESCO wall-> 40 CP, Sandbag wall-> 10 CP, Sandbag roof-> 40 CP, ladder-> 10CP, ammo crate -> 50 CP.
  • building speed is reduced to the current destruction speed. Building and destroying have the same speed

I'll talk about munition replenishment in other comment later.

Snimak_ekrana_2025-05-24_181322.png
north prairie
#

That’s fair limitations to prevent HAB spamming, BUT pace of the game issues are not addressed. The answer for these is in tickets, spawn timers, limitations for placement.

Even with CP system it’s easy to build while laying covered under tiny cover. Building should expose players to all types of fire.

Another problem is building around hostile territory. It just should not happen! Who would build fortifications in war during active assault? Limitations should imply the long times to set up buildings and not allow it in threat areas

whole tangle
# north prairie That’s fair limitations to prevent HAB spamming, BUT pace of the game issues are...

I dont think the problem comes from allowing people to make FOBs in disputed areas. I view the game as a strategy game and if you and your team make bad decisions you will be punished by an enemy that does the things right.
The problem comes from placing FOBs as near the objective as possible being the good decision almost all the times. That happens because respawning in a FOB takes the same time as respawning at base. That's why the meta goes around who spams more infantry at the objective. And what are the consequences for losing your FOB? Nothing. i think in vanilla the consequences are losing 20 tickets, which is way too little considering that you lost an important spawn structure to the frontlines.
As i said in my proposal, reducing building speed to be equal with destruction speed should work on slowing the gameplay pace to make it possible to counter and punish the FOB rush strategy that the game suffers but i wouldn't mind to increase it more. However, I think i should have added that spawning in a FOB should take 30 seconds and spawning at base, 10 seconds. And destroying your FOB should cost you 70 tickets. That way, Placing FOBs in dangerous areas would be a huge investment and a risk that can cost your team losing the match.

north prairie
# whole tangle I dont think the problem comes from allowing people to make FOBs in disputed are...

Making 1 or 2 parts of chain too slow isn’t the solution. FOBs would just be too slow and risky, making rallies meta. Since building is going to be painfully slow, only well coordinated squads would build them. Playing against FOB without one is like automatic loss. It should be impossible to build behind enemy lines, but the limitation should be more clever than objective/spawn radius

glacial crater
#

All the issues that you listed are well known and have already been discussed internally, the fixes will be implemented in upcoming updates. Keep in mind that the last update is not the final product, it just had to be done to push things forward

crystal mesa
#

I think Ponchovie has a rough prototype of this with his arty update. I've mentioned the concept of build supplies to him in #1191977980612845588 a while back. It would be functional imo.

The game needs a lot more risk v. reward. Rather than incentifying easy things like throwing bodies at sword, there needs to be bigger reprercutions for bad plays. Then again, when you try to idiot-proof something, the universe designs a better idiot.

reef saddle
#

I would keep building fast, but set a FOB activation delay conditional on distance from defense objective, alongside variable respawn times which I've detailed in another thread, but in short are conditional based on how long ago your last respawn was and your proximity to your defense objective, meaning that it's faster to respawn near your defense point and when your previous death wasn't recent.

This introduces player performance consequence, promotes FOB's that are designed around playing the objective and keeps the player engaged in the actual FPS game and not role playing minecraft with their shovel out for 5 minutes, yet still allows for some vulnerability during the building phase which would be risky in a FOB rush strategy. That's my bias though, I find building and logistics absurdly boring coming from Squad even though I would often be one of the main ones doing it because it is so essential to gaining an advantage.

Generally the time variance I am suggesting here is a range of 20 to 30 seconds, nothing that crazy, but the difference between respawning in 30 seconds versus 60 is the difference of losing a FOB according to my estimate of the pace of the game. I'm sure it could be higher as needed especially for larger maps to keep spawning at main base for vehicles a viable alternative compared to a longer frontline timer spawn.

whole tangle
# reef saddle I would keep building fast, but set a FOB activation delay conditional on distan...

i like the idea, so i'm gonna make a logistical system proposal based on what you said:

A FOB will have these parameters changed depending on how far it is placed from an ally captured zone. The parameters will stop varying at 800m distance (400m = 1 grid length of khafji map)

Building speed: 100% to 25%
Spawn activation delay: 20sec to 60sec
Spawn timer: 10sec to 60sec

Rally points will have its parameters changed based on how far it is from any ally captured zone (Same distances as FOBs)

Spawn activation delay: 10sec to 30sec
Spawn timer: 20sec to 30sec
Rally destroy radius should be increased by 100%

How about this @reef saddle?

crystal mesa
#

Just trying to get caught up with the discussion. Faster or slower build speeds closer to the objective?

whole tangle
crystal mesa
#

I personally think scaling it either way will work. It all depends on what play style you want to promote.

Faster build times closer to objectives would allow for more aggressive plays. I think there's a good deal of people who are against FOBs on objectives but I personally see no issue with it. If you've gotten the time to set up a base on an objective it's the enemy's fault for not stopping you. With the way gameplay is trending now, this is the better option.

Faster build times further away from objectives would let FOBs be used better as utility than just a spawn point. Some FOB placements I've been witness to have turned into kill boxes on the objective, so an incentive (known as convenience) to make well defended outposts that provide support rather than direct assault capabilities could be beneficial. If you leave logistics to the logisticians, frontline troops will usually follow suit. Although I've only met a few people who do enjoy logi (yes Leo, that does include you) so it might have less of an impact than the former idea.

#

Again, really depends what kind of play style you support.

glacial crater
#

There is nothing wrong with rally respawn timer, the problem we got the vanilla rally point have 5m aprox radius, its mean need to be very close to enemy rally to make it disappear and that will be changed after next update

#

Yoshi rallys have a bigger radius and all was fine.

#

The vanilla ones working like squad spawn long time ago on causualfield mod

#

With those vanilla you can speed running and capture flag by flag, all is to fast in my opinion

#

Second issuse, the vanilla habs are titanium made and people have rallys inside, you cant destroy the HAB becuse people still spawn inside on the rally point and building HAB up

#

This will be change also in the next update

#

There is no need to introduce advanced logic here at this point, just tweak this few things

#

The rally radius is crating another problem, people place them on very close to enemy spawn flag and it's hard to defend against that with a 5-meter rally aprox radius.

#

Generally, this is why we have ADHD in OHD now

#

ADOHD

#

Also i set the disatnce between the HABs (500m) on yoshi mod. We dont need that many habs on 1x1km map with spawnable flags

crystal mesa
reef saddle
#

I'd agree in fixing the main problems before jumping into advanced logic.

My take on rallies is different, I'd only have them disabled at a generous radius, not destroyed, but I'd have then make noise like a radio (Squad FOB, BF beacon) so you still get the benefits of avoiding spawn camping them (in most close to medium distance cases) and preventing sudden spawns, but forcing the commitment to actually destroying them. I don't think the respawn times they enable should ever be as good as a HAB.

reef saddle
north prairie
#

Building rallies underwater, inside HABs, lots of exploits are still possible and it’s not addressed by complicated timers

crystal mesa
# reef saddle I'd agree in fixing the main problems before jumping into advanced logic. My ...

Maybe a simpler solution is already available. I've personally had issues with audio cues (mostly with vehicles) but a HUD indicator like the flag capture indicators would be useful for both sides identifying threats. The disable not destroy idea is certainly better imo. Further I think rallies should just have higher deterioration (drastically, to where it's almost instant) similar to how HAB used to work (I think. Yoshi and Ponchovie can always correct me). It would allow squads to do more last stands on their key areas rather than being forced to reposition the second their rally gets destroyed because a lone OPFOR wandered into proximity.

crystal mesa
reef saddle
# crystal mesa An animal that lies somewhere between the two. Slightly off topic question, and ...

In my experience it is generally closer to Squad in terms of action with a slight dependency on map, but the Battlefield experience is getting into potential fights often within 15 seconds from spawning on an active area whereas OHD is highly variable but it feels like it's closer to a minute average and Squad is not far off from that. All 3 can vary especially with a Main Base spawn.

I'm more of BF fan, my avatar is literally Battlefield 3 modified art, but I also think the BF series has flaws in terms of gameplay consequence, but is closer aligned to what I would want from pace assuming the player performs well and/or is revived by their team, meaning revives are more often and easier, but I would use attrition to offset continual usage. Teamwork and performance keeps players in an active intense game, but mistakes are increasingly punished to demand more out of performance until it becomes too difficult to continue and a full reset is needed.

north prairie
crystal mesa
#

I think if OHD stays mod source/ open source enough and can find a bit more refined of a middle ground between BF speed matches and nitty gritty Squad milsim, modders will have the power to tip the scale in the direction that the players want. Maybe even having them available in server settings. I like the variability of OHD. The difference between the Casualfield matches and (when they were much more active) Desert Storm FP matches were really noticeable.

reef saddle
#

Basically the vast majority of people have never seen Battlefield played at its highest possible level and while I still wouldn't expect that just by adding in game comms, it is possible when full comms are available.

#

If you want to argue that most pubs will devolve into a rush train then I do agree, but really that's how Squad always was (back point rush) when played optimally and largely how I've seen OHD played. Comms tend to just increase the coordination and it's hard to design a capture based game mode that isn't about rushing without forced limitations.

crystal mesa
#

On that topic, food for thought that might elicit another thread/discussion, has anyone considered hiding future flag locations? Might prevent massive back capping if there's a sense of uncertainty. Especially if you only know where the Atk and Def points are

north prairie
north prairie
reef saddle
# north prairie It has nothing to do with comms, the game is designed for instant movement, fast...

You are right about the speed being fast, but mistaken about most of the rest in my experience, yet I understand where it comes from. I will add Battlefield has historically had bad spawning, although BF2 and BF3's was better than 4, 1, 5 and 2042.

Let's address what makes a push brain dead. It's brain dead when there is no coordination or timing which is exactly what comms are for. If you throw away tickets and vehicles, this creates an opportunity for the enemy to take advantage of and that's exactly what won our clan games back in the day.

There has been a myth floating around that superior tactics happen in Squad and Project Reality (PR I can only speak for what I've seen in videos and read about) and I have never once seen better tactics than I saw before in games like clan-based Battlefield, the milsim games are just slower versions of the same archetype. I have well over 10,000 hours in FPS games alone, everyone is entitled to their opinion but there just isn't a signifcant difference because if there was I would be playing far more often than I do now, which all I have played recently is OHD lol. I'm still recovering to this day from the experiences of organized Battlefield that just aren't around anymore because of DICES limitations.

The exception to all of this I will use is ARMA where the level of planning I've seen that goes into scenarios exceeds all of those other games, but it's also much more prepared in some cases where there is a finite number of approaches and outcomes due to how the scenario is structured. It's more of a function of the playerbase and the openness of ARMA's platforms, which is great.

There is just nothing wrong with "ultrafast" and there is nothing special about slowing the game down because all that happens is bad players just make the same stupid mistakes slower in real time. Good Squad leaders don't need time, they already know what to say in as few words as possible. Nothing wrong with bad players either, I was bad until I emulated those who were good and it happened in games of all kinds of speeds. I'm not saying to speed vanilla OHD up either, it just isn't the factor that some think it is.

north prairie
# reef saddle You are right about the speed being fast, but mistaken about most of the rest in...

Haha it’s like comparing a book with watching Youtube video about something, mastery only happens if there’s depth. It’s not like I don’t have over 10k hours in various tactical games.

In Battlefield you simply don’t have time to check 80% of positions, just rush meat on point and stay there. Losses from dying are minimal compared to Counter Strike, there is almost nothing at stake if you die, just a ticket-few cost. Opportunity cost for not pushing point is much higher. Capture allows much more tickets than safely properly navigating positions for good k/d and tactics. Most tactical moves are meaningless because how fast things change. It takes time to sneak for advantageous position and bring resources there. Buildings also require time and safety for setup, if they pop out of nowhere they are overpowered. Time on objective becomes primary resource, and tactical moves that are outside objective range or take too much time are wasteful instead of beneficial. That’s why Battlefield is braindead.

reef saddle
# north prairie Haha it’s like comparing a book with watching Youtube video about something, mas...

Reading the forums and watching videos is all I could do for PR because I never played it (technically I played it when it first came out which I think was 2006??). When I grilled players for the advanced tactics they claimed they used in the game it never turned out to be anything impressive. I'm not saying there weren't, but if it's a 'you had to be there', the best I can say is ok and move on. I've encountered them on multiple occasions over the years and it was always the same thing, the fact is they tried to get us to come play and they weren't very convincing.

Not checking positions? I mean ok, you die to a sniper or a bipod hero. Ticket cost is everything, that's literally the entire game. If the player doesn't understand that then they are a burden to the team. If you are saying there should be additional punishment for wasting tickets, sure I agree, but it didn't stop us from owning the ticket wasters and winning the game. Tactics are a broad category, if you fly your Blackhawk mid height as the crow flies and get shot out of the sky by the AA, no tears will be shed on that loss, so taking the long way around isn't just a tactic, it's the norm for a good player and Squad leaders are ready to spawn in on the BH, drop out and Squad members spawn on the leaders for a flash spawn within 5 seconds of 15 players to take an objective thanks to a BH pilot and maybe an engineer repping.

Is that fast and cheesy compared to Squad? Sure, but it's the same concept as the soldiers already being in the heli. What makes it an actual tactic/strategy is that we measured the travel time and coordinated with another squad transporting to another objective and timed so we took the objectives at the same time to create a ticket differential by holding a majority.

That's just one story of many where we maximized the game mechanics, prepared by practicing on the map and executed it in real time in a game like Battlefield for players who have never seen that happen. That's peak and it's possible with comms and community in any game.

I do know what you mean about how fast things change, but that's what I was saying before, good players predict these things and have plans on backup plans ready to shift SL's around, adjust Squad members loadouts, reposition armor, refocus certain objectives and even switch players around based on skill and performance level. That's how much we loved that game and how much our players trusted the leadership, we knew how good people were and would openly talk about it. People who were bothered by it were always welcome but recommended if they can't be open, we weren't the best fit for them.

I've diverged on this topic way too much though, let's bring this back to the point.

reef saddle
north prairie
#

There is simply no time to do advanced tactics in fast paced shooters, sneaking to the point in Battlefield is a waste of opportunity to just run recklessly and get faster capture with more winrate

reef saddle
#

Sneaking to a point is "back capping" it happens all the time.

#

Some players make it their mission to do that and they don't care about the scoreboard.

north prairie
#

in Battlefield running to point is the go to

reef saddle
#

Same in squad

north prairie
#

in Squad you have time to check the area, estimate danger, position for advantage

reef saddle
#

I do that while sprinting

#

Listen, I don't think we are going to agree here lol, we should leave the topic alone.

north prairie