Tactical Gunplay Overhaul: PR Style Gunplay (PR mod)

[torpid whale]

Just a lil mod to practice my blueprint programming and learn the SDK.

If you are not familiar with the Project Reality mod from Battlefield 2 the initial features are as follows:

-Increased weapon inaccuracy increases during movement (walking and especially running)
-Increased weapon inaccuracy when turning quickly at a large angle (twitch aim 45 degrees for example)
-Suppression increases weapon inaccuracy
-Weapon accuracy recovers with no movement and minimal to no turning while unsuppressed.

Those are the minimal features I'm planning. I have some ideas about changes to suppression effect, recoil changes, stamina, animations, movement speed, etc. But I'm trying to keep scope small for now.

FAQ:
Why are you trying to implement such a cumbersome feature that was only really in place due to the limitation of a 20 year old engine?

As I mentioned earlier, this implementation is mostly for getting practice and familiarity with blueprints and the sdk. Granted though I do think this system encourages interesting tactical gameplay over any modern system that I have seen today. Is there a better feeling more modern system that achieves the same tactical gameplay? Probably and I might experiment with finding that in the future.

[frigid swift]

Finally someone is doing it your doing the lords work hope you succeed

[honest rose]

@torpid whale I like your username because I work at a pizza place

[honest rose]

Good idea btw

[twin crest]

these are good features and actually pretty common in some newer as well as older games both before and after most of PR's development, it all comes down to the overall implementation.

as an example of what you mentioned before, ADS movement could affect cone of fire, or sway, or something else that isn't really even common in most shooters, id say try whatever you want and go for it, especially if you have a specific target audience

seeing modern fps gamers saying things like cone of fire is bad was kind of surprising because fps's have had that for years, and most in fact do have some form of randomness; the issue is when you increase randomness too much, players no longer feel in control, but that's up the designer to resolve and part of the fun if you enjoy it.

[torpid whale]

First implementation of PR style recoil handler. Increases inaccuracy of weapon based on the velocity and the angular velocity (turning) of the player.
One issue is that horizontal turning of the character increases inaccuracy much more dramatically then up and down, due to how the angular velocity node work

[grizzled sierra]

the guy wants to make the mechanics of the circle of dispersion like in world of tanks in a 1-person shooter on Unreal engine

Gunplay in Project Reality really terrible and due to an outdated engine.

Is there a better feeling more modern system that achieves the same tactical gameplay?
YES. it’s enough just to make it so that the sight wobbles strongly in different directions when you press the aiming after the sprint or when you sharply pull the mouse to the side, the main thing is that the bullet flies where the sight shows, it’s just that the sight itself will stagger a lot, and when you sit for a long time , calm down, the sight will return to normal and will not stagger much

[keen falcon]

i like this a lot

[twin crest]

You are aware that most FPS games have a circle of dispersion right?

[twin crest]

Basically this limits what you can do with the balance of accuracy across all weapons, that's why most FPS's have some form of randomness built in beyond the bullet traveling where your site is aiming.

You could attempt to make up for that by moving the weapon to the intended dispersion location in a way that prevents player control, but that might be visually confusing.

[torpid whale]

Im not a huge fan of heavily pronounced weapon sway, it does give a physical feedback that the player is inaccurate, but it makes the main character feel drunk and feels like an artificial barrier to a player trying to find center screen. Also I dont like giving try hards the oppurtunity to learn to how to control the recoil when the gun is swaying around, true randomness is best imo

There are things I want to experiment with to give feedback on whether the player is inaccurate or not. The bare minimum is I want to implement those 2 dots at the bottom of the screen in PR that show the weapon dispersion . Depends on how much time I have though

[twin crest]

this is a huge concern of mine too regarding sway and i wish there was a working sway system in place so i could show you, but imagine a sway that has a pretty high displacement but also a very long periodicity/time rate of movement, so when the player moves their mouse while ADS'ing under "low" sway conditions, it will take a relatively longer period of time for their actual view to deviate off center and as it does, it is such a small amount that the impact isnt terribly high

and id like to stress that this is only during ADS, meaning your head is aligned with movement of your weapon under the control of your upper body/core

so you could potentially have a button to even decouple your view from the weapon ADS if in case you want your camera/head to be steady while you find your target and then recouple your view to your gun when you are ready, if that's your preference, but i feel like a well designed sway system will be comfortable enough

and frankly i think this is really only necessary in longer range combat to begin with, but i get it, in excessively high sway conditions when you feel like you cant even control the camera, thats drunk cam for sure, and to me, i would almost never use that except during extreme recoil balance related situations and to a lesser extent, possibly alongside suppression (i personally prefer a suppression based system where you reward the player for accurately suppressing where you know the player is like an inch away or behind a target you just cant pen (when penetration systems are relevant) - i sort of despise systems that reward players for missing, because there is a threshold in my mind ... after all, we all play fps's and we know how frustrating it is when a pixel of sand prevents you from hitting someone lol

[torpid whale]

If I do get around to making a system that gives animation feedback while firing: it'd either be a just the weapon being lower in screen (simulating that its not shouldered yet) and/or significant recoil with the weapon bouncing all over the place when firing.

Im releasing the blueprint I'm using though, so if you want to figure out a way to do my same implementation but with weapon sway go for it. Maybe it works better then I'm envisioning.

[twin crest]

i hear you, im actually just talking the shouldered ADS position, but yeah i like that idea too, i was thinking of something like that regarding the point shooting stance that currently exists, but im not sure whether i want to explore that stance or not

[torpid whale]

Im not really sure at this point how the suppression system is actually implemented, so I'll have to wait and see if its actually possible to do what I want to do

[twin crest]

cool, im sharing my stuff again once it's in a better state, but admittedly i was going to hold off on sway before other systems while hoping the core game gets an update to it

[twin crest]

yeah and i think core wants to address suppression as well so if you have more important systems that come first, it might be best to tackle those

my vision of sway is legit just moving the players camera while ADS'ed lol... i just want simple solutions right now since im still learning (as oppose to making sure all the animations reflect sway based movement to some extent, even if it isnt synced like Squad is)

[grizzled sierra]

yes, it is, only it does not work as in PR and WOT

[grizzled sierra]

main character feel drunk and feels like an artificial barrier to a player trying to find center screen
lol that's how guns behave in real life

[lean shell]

true

not a dev just a vet.

rise and fall of your chest is causing the sway

[twin crest]

Exactly, the point is that there is a whole wide range of settings that can exist "inbetween" those as well as settings not attempted before.

[twin crest]

They are likely referring to sway to the extent that you have almost no control in a situation that doesn't make sense, sort of like the discussion related to random spread.

I think we all understand, or should step back to remember, that a glowing rectangular screen, with a hand on a mouse and a hand on the keyboard isn't a translation into relatity, it is an abstraction of it. It will never be real until you consistently trick the brain otherwise (carefully I hope).

So the tradeoff is attempting to use game mechanics to make up for the difference and if you look at the summary of what each person said, I think it's fair to say if you go overboard in any one direction with a game mechanic you start to end up with a disconnect between what the in game skill/knowledge used to gain an advantage over other players and what that mechanic represents in the abstraction of reality.

[lean shell]

realism sucks

thats why i dont play arma

and i served as a 12b

[twin crest]

Looking at that makes me think a subtle breath effect (perhaps very subtle lol) with a wave function similar to the actual sway during ADS might help with it's believability.

Especially just after the peak/highpoint of the curve leading half way to the trough/low point, the sway itself might be at it's relative minimum, so the player might be able even have an auditory reference to know when sway will affect them, all of this modulated by in game effects.

[lean shell]

that would be great

i havnt seen a game actually gamify that

[twin crest]

Yeah, our BattleField 3 community ended up attracting a surprising amount of the chill vets

Back when the game was actually relevant

[lean shell]

yea its supposed to be fun

[twin crest]

Some did like ARMA3 Wasteland

Granted, I think many would prefer something closer to BF, but people do like Tarkov too.

[lean shell]

tarkov does a good job at causing that chatter, go here im moving here this and that. that gets me pumped way more then it trying to be a realistic game. a game that can translate the little things into features is so appreciated. doesn't need to be complex. just o wow they thought of that

tarkov has alot of those little things, bf i loved to. played thousands of hours active duty and it also had enough immersion to get that team work going and i think the over all experience is much more appreciated than over doing and complicating things.

and you looked at it like id hope. gamify and thats just what we think about when shooting

tarkov does have a good idle sway

[twin crest]

Yeah, it always confuses me when players say there is no teamwork in Battlefield, but I think they just never played on community servers.

You didn't even have to be part of the community, but if you never had a squad of players run in and repair your tank while helping you kill enemy tanks you just weren't playing on the right servers.

And then if people did join communities, it was like hanging out at your local pub or what not and gradually transforms into more squad specific organization and as more join, suddenly you got half the team coordinating which led to entire server vs server organized matches. And when the matches stop, the teamplay doesn't, because people already know how to play at peak level.

[lean shell]

yea the community has changed in those games and alot of them want it to FEEL a certain way so skills translate from other games and it has thrown the balance in my opinion. Has a idle sway system been done like this imagine the gears of war reload bar with the sweet spot. the weapon has its pattern whatever way you choose but if you decide to hold breath in the sweet spot you get a small bonus. While being shot at that window is harder to get but still gives you some sort of bonus

maybe it can reduce some of the suppression effects.

and the sweet spot is just on an up or down interval across all weapons that you decide

and the same not diffrent per

[twin crest]

Yes, skill checks during routine animations that provide potential bonuses is something I'm considering for mods.

[lean shell]

awesome

[twin crest]

I think it often makes during most any "downtime" action where the player can't do anything anyway except maybe animation cancelling (aside from other normal movement activities that are allowed).

[lean shell]

makes it interesting?

because systems like what your saying if im understanding correctly enhance basic functions in the game

[twin crest]

Yes exactly, and that is somewhat in line with taking another look at things like resupply, or more broadly "logistics". In BF you can just drop an ammo box on a cooldown. In Squad you can build an ammo box from truck supplies. I do like having the concept of transporting supplies and a location where they can be disrupted, but ultimately the player who interacts with them is still just going up to it and pressing a key or 2.

Conversely in Tarkov you are sometimes drag and dropping individual bullets around an inventory screen, which is...uuuhhhhggghhh. it is actually cool, but it's something that I think can be made to be more user friendly.

The general idea I have is for inventory management to be on going and start with mags. Mags in your rig versus mags in your mag, and mags in your mag are basically getting refilled during any player downtime, possibly mostly "automatically, though that's still brain storm stage.

The general idea being that mags you reload from your rig are readily available but the bag would take significantly longer, however if you want mags to get filled they have to be in the bag, and the rate of fill will likely correspond to total logistic/attrition factors.

Effectively if I want a pace closer to the BF/CoD style but have more consequential gameplay seen in games like Tarkov, I need to translate those features over. This means during a lull in the action, you are trading mags in an out, and while drag and drop is okay, I'd prefer also having hot keys along with prioritizing primary action so you can "passively" do this stuff without being full low ready or something, sure, some consequences, but not outright disability during downtime management.

[lean shell]

oh wow your actually trying to do something different

so something like being idle and not under fire or shooting can fill them faster

[twin crest]

I've been waiting for something different for years.

[lean shell]

so a reason to fall back

i like that alot, new ideas

but you need to get a ammo crate for what?

[twin crest]

Pretty much exactly, and the only thing is I'm still juggling how that should really work, because all I'm doing is keeping the player busy, and I do want to have some situations where you commit to inventory management and would get put in a state that leaves you more vulnerable, but during normal management, I see it something more like weapon switching or reloading, there is consequence, but I'm not sitting there unwrapping my MRE spilling the jelly everywhere or something.

[twin crest]

That's later, but the whole idea would be your "requisition"/"logisitics" or whatever are a function of how close you are to your supply lines to keep that simple.

So let's say we are just playing Conquest. Your ability to resupply/maintain is a function of how close you are to main and the points you captured. It might be a fixed function enemy territory so points closer to enemy main might always be harder, but holding them does make it less difficult to resupply, however the enemy pushing from main always has some greater advantage in terms of that resupply aspect.

And I want this to translate to pretty much everything, from health regen to stamina regen with the potential for some pretty high variability (especially with regard to pacing differences, but that may be pretty challenging). But you know, it's a ton of stuff and I'm just poking at the basics right now really.

[lean shell]

Yea that's something totally doable if you don't over complicate like some ppl do sometimes. That could lead to strategic choices especially if a commander role is available or certain objectives give you less of this or that resource. Rts type mechanics

Example needing a resource that helps with destroying vehicles so aa and mines whatever ppl decide to do.

Pretty modular when you think about it and alot can be done with that and add alot to the loop. Tarkov is good at adding alot of small things that come together. Isn't too difficult to manage one issue but several is death for sure

[twin crest]

Yeah, next to learning the scripting, which is slow, but so far so good, the hardest part is keeping it accessible and somewhat intuitive.

The good thing is that I can just grow it alongside my own modding ability, so in the beginning, it will be far more simplistic.

And if simple is preferred, older versions can be left in place to be updated if the interest is there, because the other thing I see is that mod projects should encourage others to jump in.

[lean shell]

When I say simple I don't mean dumb down. Intuitive

[twin crest]

Same. Tarkov inventory drag is "simple".

Knowing what to put where is....less intuitive lol.

[lean shell]

For sure lol

[twin crest]

Learning it is fine, but they don't make it that easy to learn either.

[lean shell]

I think that's what ppl are looking for now is the amount of mechanics but put in a lobby type game. That's what your doing right. Bf

[twin crest]

Pretty much, I can't call it BF or CoD because it's the BF that was never made in my opinion.

[lean shell]

Right now it's slide canceling

[twin crest]

I remember playing Battlefield and then playing Command and Conquer and wondering "why not both?". But again, that's a long ways off, I think there are things as low level as infantry combat in the arcade style that could just be drastically improved, and something as simple as making judgement calls of whether to switch a mag in or out is enough to enhance it imo.

[twin crest]

Yeah so animation cancelling is skill based to me, but the problem is there is no consequence in CoD.

[lean shell]

What do you think about doors

[twin crest]

Footsteps aren't audible past 5m, landing on the ground makes no noise, and nothing happens if get the slide cancel wrong, let alone why it needs to be a movement speed boost, there are just no tradeoffs.

[twin crest]

I think no one has got them right.

And part of that is needing a destruction system, so I guess I wouldn't touch them without that.

Rainbow Six Siege Beta was so close in some ways to what handing good entry could be, but then it caught a wave of stupid.

And the alpha looked like a different game lol.

Siege's gunplay was never good, but that's just it, watching so many fps's get individual mechanics just right but never seeing them combine them all has been an exercise in frustration.

It would be one thing if there was already an example, but there isn't, because I would be playing it lol.

[lean shell]

I agree and if not that's cool if no doors. I just going to say a door charge I havnt seen in a game. A tobacco shot. You usually see a normal door charge but made our own with tape and cardboard. But the tobacco shot is always fun. It's just c4 packed into a tobacco can and slap it on a door with already primed and ready.

Or a water impulse charge

Made from Iv bags

Not feature request at all just something to think about if demo was added

I was a 12b so maybe not everyone made their own demo like we do

[twin crest]

That one surprised me, but fluid physics do be crazy

[twin crest]

It's a scope thing, I'm avoiding mapping for as long as possible because it's just a whole other thing to learn, so even that whole "rts" style is something that can just start off super basic

[twin crest]

I'm pretty sure all of us want door charges and what not

From what I gather, it might be best to wait for the Unreal Engine 5 transition

[twin crest]

I'm civilian engineering so I'm more entertained that combat engineering is my job security (I shouldn't really say that but the death of humor is the death of everything to me)

[torpid whale]

I understand that sway has a place in games like eft, but for my mod it would have to be much more dramatic inorder to get the gameplay pace I want. We dont have the complex damage model of EFT in OHD(OHD is 1 to 2 shots), so you have to be much more punishing with constraints. Hence with the amount of sway Id have to add to get the same result would be very dramatic, which would make the player feel drunk.

Its also important to note that the players relationship to the weapon is much different then it is in reality. Players are sitting at a desk instead of holding the weapon so having visual sway feels more disconnected.

[lean shell]

Was he saying sway the head

[torpid whale]

So sway isnt always bad, but in the scope and context in what I'm doing, I dont like it

[lean shell]

Lmao I wish I could do the civ side much more calculated. P equals plenty won't work

[lean shell]

I'm for trying new ideas

[torpid whale]

I mean its an almost 20 year old idea, sway is probably the newer idea. So really Im trying old ideas🤣

[twin crest]

We call that factor of safety

And "engineering judgement"

[torpid whale]

I might try screwing around with eft style later, but that would take much more development and time.

EFT has a lot of features and system interacting with each other, and Im not sure the tools we have available in the SDK would be able to handle it without causing performance issues

[twin crest]

I'd highly recommend playing with the damage model.

It's such a different game when you don't just 2 shot everyone even if your actual aim and hit location was sloppy - but I do want to explore fine tuning hit locations. Hitting the edge of an arm versus center of an arm could matter, even if it wasn't that much.

[lean shell]

That's what I mean thats a different idea of not using sway and what you come up with. Especially modern shooters after mw going against the standard or so called

I am a game dev drop out before army art side but had to do game theory so I'm with you

[twin crest]

I might have mentioned that where your actual sway is your weapon so it only happens during ADS...and decoupling the head is something I'm pretty sure I've seen in ARMA or the AMRA-likes, maybe Flashpoint which is what, technically a predecessor.

[twin crest]

Sometimes a different implementation of an old idea can make it feel new, it's pretty subjective.

[twin crest]

Game theory and wargaming are just such a direct connection

I think that's why the best games are rooted in a sense of competition at some level or "war"

[lean shell]

I agree and there are so many things you can do or not do and it still can work. Alot of things havnt been attempted because games stopped trying to compete after mw era.

Small additions and we have cone far with survival but these large scale battle games idk how to explain do need some attention.

Bf seems to only take steps backwards.

Insurgency good start the sequel they started taking away features. Always is like that so I'm happy it can be in our hands now

[twin crest]

Yep, and no disrespect to the studios regarding the work effort involved, but the change in gaming wasn't just about work effort for features, it was an outright removal of better gameplay for mediocre gameplay centered around presumably profiteering, and while it's a tall order to think a small project can fill that gap, but if it does and/or others follow suit, the whole industry is in trouble.

If the best games aren't coming from the most expensive studios and the experienced players migrate, it's only a matter of time before the inexperienced follow looking for good gameplay.

I think Epic is one of the few big companies that may understand that too, meanwhile the larger gaming playerbase still worships Valve who doesn't even make games anymore, while they hate Epic because they moved from console wars to store wars

[lean shell]

I agree and be built on as ppl expand what the base game is

[lean shell]

valve gets the love because they always try something that goes against the norm

[twin crest]

I respect that but UE to me is against the norm and the reason why many devs are switching over. But then again that's a dev thing and the consumer base often doesn't care about the engine outside of where all the best games are.

[lean shell]

i agree with that, none of this was possible whaen i was in school for it

tools were not available

[twin crest]

Most people just don't like Epic's store, but there's a reason why nothing is better than Steam and that's just the time and money sink Valve put into it

[twin crest]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy now.

[lean shell]

it was impressive enough having a nice gpu that you can run autodesk on or something

i knew one person that did 3d in the dorm room

not in the school pc room lol

[twin crest]

Yeah, I grew up through the evolution of graphics cards so watching things change was pretty crazy. The late 90's through early 00's was insane.

Ever since physics cards never panned out I've been waiting to see actual in game physics improvements, and what a slog.

[lean shell]

what do you think of ai and physics coming together now

i think things are slowly heating up

[twin crest]

I was really let down when the Scavengers project fell apart, not surprised, just hoping they would stick it out but they also sound like they are on the traditional studio model that imo is slowly changing but will be bottom up.

Scavengers used server meshing (static I think) to seperate their game server from AI server to increase AI density alongside player density in a Battle Royale environment, and I think it technically worked but the AI wasn't particularly advanced either, so I got the impression they wanted to somehow be competitive with all other BR's while simultaneously not really being much different and not necessarily better either.

As far as physics, where what I actually meant was dynamics in the context of statics and dynamics, specifically map features and what not, I'm waiting to see what the developers of The Finals (who are actually BF3 devs) do.

I don't The Finals will be that crazy, but from what I heard the destruction they have done worked out pretty well, but the biggest thing to me is not destruction in the sense that objects disappear, it's destruction which changes the environment in a way where things are more displaced, so sure, you blew through a concrete wall but the rubble is still there, so you didn't just remove cover, you changed how that cover is utilized.

This has branched off quite a bit from the original discussion, so we may want to move it to #💬general_modding (i think game mechanic topics would migrate there), however I would like to think that these are all topics that would still be of interest for most mods whether they are inspired by PR, ARMA, Battlefield, CoD or whatever.

[grizzled sierra]

The recoil system that is in the Squad is as immersive and realistic as possible, it is even more realistic than in insurgency sandstorm, because in insurgency there is a huge recoil when firing at a glance (in real life, when firing at a glance, the recoil is almost as low as with aimed shooting ). I live in Ukraine and talked with many military men who are now fighting and in peacetime loved to play Squad and they say that Squad has the most realistic shooting system of all the shooters they played, I trust their opinion and think they know better.
There is no point in reinventing the wheel and inventing some new system that, by definition, cannot be better, do something useful, for example, help transfer vehicle from Project Reality

[twin crest]

the type of realism you are talking about is "visual realism"

remember that your hand is on a mouse

does that mean your hand is only the hand on your rifle?

ok, well where are your feet planted? is your weight into your shot? are you firmly gripping or loose gripping? is your breathing in sync with your shooting patterns? most if not all of these things that are important, also happen to be things the game just does for you.

if the game just does something for you, then that's not very real, is it?

now, you dont have to have these types of realism elements, but i find this time and time again that people who talk about realism dont seem to think about these things at all, and I'm not entirely sure why.

they clearly are interested or passionate about translating aspects of reality into a game, but instead they seem to have already made firm decisions on what reality in a game is when we dont have anything remotely close to reality in some of the most specific scientific simulations.

and im certainly not expecting you to have an atomic level simulation, im talking about simple things like stance and breathing cadence, which in FPS games is often translated into gun mechanics, because it represents your total control over the situation considering all factors, and more often than not, if you shoot less frequently you experience less recoil, so games like Insurgency Sandstorm I believe use a progressive recoil system where each successive shot increases recoil to a greater extent than the first shot you take, and if it doesn't, there are some games that have in the past.

[lean shell]

no its not, iid have to respectfully disagree when it comes to nato weapons such as 249.

squad tries to be real but it ends up having no violence of action and becomes dry and stiff. feels like guys are still in basic training. its not always about being real cus no game can do that. much better to try to make the player feel like the combat is intense whatever way you wanna do it. squad is low on that list. sound is good though

[twin crest]

when you say stiff, do you mean experienced gunners move with the vibrations and kick of the weapon instead of trying to resist and absorb?

dry i dont know at all aside from some jokes in bad taste

[tall ridge]

I'll argue for the side that doesn't care too heavily when it comes to being realistic, all i'm looking for is a satisfying punch when I fat finger my left mouse button. I love squad, and it might be more of a sound issue than anything else, but firing guns in that game disappoints me everytime. If I remember correctly, Ready or Not gave me all the right feelings when it comes to fatfingering. Just my 2 cents.

[lean shell]

i can agree with him ready or not felt great. when i say stiff i mean the overall feel of the gunplay and the time it takes to reload what your talking is maybe exaggerating the effects of firing a weapon. visually the m4 may kick harder then real life lets say on the characters arms. in real life its pretty low but im more interested in a good feeling game. squad has some decent realistic sounds like the m4 but they are boring because its trying to be realistic.

i hope i explained it well

because you hold your rifle firm

control breathing

i think cod can be a little shaky but it adds some extra hooah to the sprays

tarkov makes you think about planting feet

i like that

[twin crest]

yeah i got you, i know you lean into so i was wondering if that was a way of knowing how your weapon moves and accounting for that or something ,but yeah you were just talking the game

[lean shell]

yea posture is a big deal

[twin crest]

ive been brain storming stance, something more than just "stopping" - in most fps's including OHD, strafe dancing (jink back and forth) is just a massive advantage

...and not in a good gameplay way either, ive watched people frame skip and thats just likely a server thing but it is what it is

even highly performant games tend to get some animation jitter and strafing with random direction change timings just helps you get that positional advantage, which, to me, should be a tradeoff

if you want that, then you are going to have less control

but i do think it needs to be more than that

[torpid whale]

ALS looks cool but my guess is that it doesnt scale well to large player counts, the main reason I think OHD animations are still pretty wonky is that they need to optimize them. Donkey mentioned that they main reason for performance issues atm is the animation system

But aside from that, can we please keep the chatter in this thread directed toward the mod. You'd probably get more engagement anyway with these topics in the public threads

[lean shell]

im not even doing it on purpose, i cant tell who is who because im looking at the right side. im not as familiar with the discord structure

all good

[torpid whale]

You're good, I get some discussion about the mod leads into other topics. Just want to remind people

MOD UPDATE: The main 3 features are now essentially implemented: gun accuracy is reduced on movement, turning quickly, and suppression.

My next steps are as follow:
-Setting up a visual indicator in the HUD for the current accuracy of the weapon.
-Adding stance as a parameter to the gun accuracy
-Tweaking the the rate at which accuracy is reduced by those 4 major parameters so it closely resembles how the system works in PR.

[twin crest]

For the visual indicator, I have seen PR's and I do think that can be enough, but depending how far you want to take this, I think the upper body can be thought of sort of like a gyro, where during a turning motion, you may also factor in how far off center of gravity your stabilizing arm is, such as when aiming directly up, and while I do think you would settle, the initial motion and less typical aiming position might be slightly more disruptive than aiming straight ahead, so another possible indicator could be something like this:

You might have an arrow indicating front facing direction and that arrow would wobble with an area highlighted on the sphere representing the amount of total rotational displacement the player is experiencing as well as the direction in case you want to distinguish that you are doing something which causes significant horizontal spread, but not as much vertical spread.

And...I wouldn't do this first of course, but having different actions causing different results would make the whole experience feel less random to me at least and a player could plan and confirm just how much instability they are experiencing and judge what matters when.

[torpid whale]

Cool idea, but I want to have something that people can just pick up and instantly get the jist of what something means. Just a simple indicator for accuracy sounds like a better idea, so that users don’t have to look up documentation on what things mean.

[twin crest]

very true, i did hear PR had a good manual going though

[torpid whale]

Yah it is pretty good, I just dont trust fpsers to take the time to read. I know I dont 🤣

[twin crest]

I would want to just jump in and play but if I saw that at the bottom of my screen, I'd be like "wtf??" .. but the thing is it would move as the player moves, so it might be easier than it sounds. I may end up using it down the road...far down the road lol.

[torpid whale]

That is true that the dot is kinda vague in its purpose. Might think about a redesign later down the line

I want to have a indicator thats subtle and doesnt provide a crosshair. But clear enough in its purpose for the player to get what it means quickly

[twin crest]

Isn't it a horiztonal bar that fills from the middle?

Oh it's a dot when it's not filling right? I'd consider having it disappear because a player can test that by stopping movement of the ADS, and once they start, they would see the dot/bar.

[torpid whale]

It’s 2 dots at the bottom of the screen, the distance between them is the respesents how accurate the gun is.

[torpid whale]

Small update on the mod. I currently have stance based accuracy increases implemented. Essentially in prone or crouched stances the rate at which the cone of fire decays (becomes more accurate) is increased.

I want to also add the cone of fire increasing in size (become less accurate) briefly when the player first enters and exits the prone position. But I want to first get the hud elements figured out, so I can get an idea of the right values I want everything to increase or decay the cone of fire while playing.

[torpid whale]

Added a ton of new public variables to recoil handler blueprint in order to add customization for each weapon and redid deviation calculations to add more control.

For each weapon you can control 3 groups of variables: move cone of fire, turn cone of fire, and stance cone of fire.

Move cone of fire has 3 variable that control: how fast movement increases cone of fire, how fast the cone of fire goes back to normal when not moving, and the max amount of deviation movement can add to the cone of fire.

Turn cone of fire has 3 similar variables as move, just replace movement with turning.

Stance cone of fire has 3 variables where each controls how each stance (standing, crouched, prone) affects the cone of fire decay (how fast each weapon goes back to full accuracy).

[torpid whale]

Heres a little demonstration. The blue numbers in the top left is the current cone of fire radius

Cone of fire growth/decay values are not final

[torpid whale]

Slight change to how I am handling things now:

Movement based cone of fire growth or decay, no longer takes into the player velocity into account, but instead merely increases while the player is moving and decreases when not moving. This is virtually identical to the past implementation it is just more efficient and much simpler to control.

Turning cone of fire now takes pitch into account along with changes in yaw.

Been just adjusting my implementation and cleaning up code, Im learning more everyday.

[feral obsidian]

nice

[torpid whale]

Wanted to get some feedback around possibly changing the position of the gun in first person to reflect more like PR/Squad style

Vanilla OHD perspective

Adjusted

[pastel sluice]

I like it

[frigid swift]

Honestly if you can make it as close to pr as possible then go for it

[feral obsidian]

thats pretty good

[torpid whale]

Cone of Fire deviation now increases when initiating and exiting prone stance

[torpid whale]

Cone of Fire deviation now increases when jumping, falling, and vaulting. Ill have to playtest the falling function on things like stairs or curbs to see if it is too sensitive

[torpid whale]

Tested the falling deviation increase and it is too sensitive, so I’ll probably scale back that feature at least for first release.

I’m a bit torn on whether to make vaulting increase deviation. The reason for prone and jumping doing that in PR is to prevent “dolphin diving” behavior but vaulting has a lengthy enough animation that wouldn’t make it as abusable. Vaulting wasn’t in PR so I can’t really default to its design.

What I might do is just make it so vaulting adds a quarter or half the deviation that jumping and prone transitioning does. What do you guys think?

[frigid swift]

Considering that ever one is complaining that vaulting is to slow which doesn't make sense cuse OHD is a tactical shooter and i believe its realistic, but that will probably change in the future to a faster vault

Then again in the future we may be able to go upp high walls and it may feel weird to climb a high wall and jumb down only to have halv the deviation

Im really looking forward for this mod hoping someone will put it in thier server cuse its probably wont work with AI only real mfs

[torpid whale]

Yah it is not recommended to use with AI. Not only would they not know how to work with the new gunplay systems, I also have performance worries.

Almost all the additions to this mod are additions done per frame. Just being calculated for the player character by the client isnt a huge deal, but if you locally have 30 more ai that need to have their deviation calculated per frame. That can scale quite poorly performance wise

Yet I have have seen no changes in performance on my end vs vanilla OHD (I have a ryzen 3600 cpu), but I'll have to see if anyone is having issues on release especially with older cpus.

[frigid swift]

Cool looking forward for when the mod releases

[torpid whale]

Its close. The main thing that is holding me back is adding the deviation indicator in the hud. I havent screwed with UI before and Im not sure where everything is that handles that in OHD's project folder. I finally got a decent amount of free time for the next couple days so I might be able to finally dig into that

After that I'll just need to set up the kits and then release the first version.

[signal mortar]

will this mod also include modern updated guns?

[frigid swift]

Keep upp the hard work bruh i downloaded the sdk and almost died trying to make a map so i know how hard sh** can be

[torpid whale]

I'll be using the vanilla OHD and the Sandbreaker assets for now. Im not a modeler so there wont be much changes in that regard.

More changes like that will depend on how popular the mod actually gets. If no one is really interested or playing, I probably wont continue adding features or might wait to do more development till vehicles/construction come out. If it does get one or two server playing, Ill probably keep adding some features/making adjustments.

If it gets really popular I might actually try to get a full dev team together. Im just waiting and seeing at this point

[torpid whale]

Yah I started with mapping and it gets crazy overwhelming. I'd look at tutorials and start very small. I'd make almost a counterstrike sized map and then scale from there.

[signal mortar]

cool thanks

[torpid whale]

Also one more note is that my current plan on release is that the only class that has access to optics will be the marksmen kit. This is to account for the smaller scale of the current maps available in OHD, to give the marksmen kit more of a role, and I want to just get a build out without having to screw around with adding optics to guns that dont have them set up.

[torpid whale]

Went a lot smoother then expected

[torpid whale]

A lot of progress today. Some great optimizations with the help from GNU. Hud indicator also seems to be finished.

Main work now is to get the kits set up.

[frigid swift]

https://tenor.com/view/credit-card-smacking-credit-card-on-table-gif-21340324

[feral obsidian]

rlly like the indicator at the bottom

[torpid whale]

So as a first iteration of the mod Im going to avoid asymmetry balance wise in order for playtests to focus on the base features of the mod instead of faction balance. This is done so I need to only set up 5 total different weapon classes instead of 5 per faction

So Russians vs US are going to have very similar recoil values, and (because I dont have access to an m4 that is finished) my current plan is that the m16a2 will be sacrilegiously changed to a full auto weapon.
This might change in the future or the m16a2 might be changed for an m4/m16a4.

[frigid swift]

Have you tested the deviation on the RPGS and how well it works?

[torpid whale]

Not yet but it does work on grenade launchers so rpgs should work too

[frigid swift]

cool really liked how the devation balanced ATS in pr

[torpid whale]

Yah Im planning on having it have a fairly long stabilization time before shooting

[torpid whale]

Kits are all set up, each weapon class is set up. Marksmen class and Machine gun classes both have a undeployed and deployed version of their primary weapon. Deployed weapon can only shoot while ads and have increased deviation from movement but have lower recoil and deviation from everything aside from movement deviation. Undeployed weapons function as normal but generally are difficult to control with high recoil and deviation. One issue with the implementation is that the Deployed and Undeployed weapons dont share mags, so if you empty a mag with the undeployed gun you can switch back to the deployed gun and have a full mag. This will be probably be fixed in later releases.

Just need to take another pass on testing suppression and if things go smoothly then first release could be either tomorrow or in the next couple days.

[frigid swift]

Cant wait 🔥

[tulip jasper]

PR's Rally / FOB / Logistic / Medical system WHEN ? 😏

[torpid whale]

Ah jeez dont stress me out lol

I might try to screw around with seeing if I can get a working rally system, and might do some small adjustments to medical/bandages to be more squad/pr like.

But the rest probably going to wait for it to be implemented in vanilla unless I see a good solution done by modders.

[tulip jasper]

ahahah

i mean, ive been in a modding team trying to get PR mod in squad

as well as follow 1 other project (and one more , but it was so hardcore with the recoil , its questionable to call it a PR mod at this point)

so i was wondering when a True PR successor mod would pop up in OHD

[tulip jasper]

yeah that's what i always advise people to do, when they want to do something that is planned by the dev

concentrate on other part of the mod, the foundations etc first

though if your mod require said feature as a fundation, making a prototype is not a bad idea

though keeping in mind that it'll have to be easily refactorable to adapt to OHD's vanilla one

[torpid whale]

Yah thats why im focusing purely on gunplay first. One its requires a cone of fire recoil handler that a lot of other mods might find useful in general, while also keeping the scope low without requiring new assets among other things

On a side note, I think Im gonna try to get deployed and undeployed weapon's sharing clip feature on release. Being able to switch between deployed and undeployed mgs with full ammo sounds like too much abuse.

If I cant get it tonight, I will release without the undeployed versions of the weapons until I figure something else out.

Already had a few honest tries at this feature and its been fucking annoying lol

[torpid whale]

Ok implemented the fix for the deploy weapons. Hopefully its not too buggy, real annoying but think it should be good

[torpid whale]

Have my mod all set up and trying to package but facing major issues

[frigid swift]

[torpid whale]

Ok found the solution. Guess you cant put stuff in the modding folder anymore directly, everything should be run through workshop. Still having an issue with my gamemode not appearing so just gotta fix that and then full release

[frigid swift]

[torpid whale]

Ok everything is ready. Gonna release tomorrow for real this time

[torpid whale]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2942515373

Go crazy

[teal garden]

will you be able to make the game mode available for other factions as well, or is not how that works
great work so far btw

[torpid whale]

I could but it would just take time to set up and balance each weapon

[torpid whale]

New update coming out soon that will fix bots. Unfortunately I accidently turned off the original cone of fire system for bots by accident, so thats why they have been shooting lazer beams

Also experimenting with a weapon mount system similar to RO and Rising Storm

[torpid whale]

Small update:
-Changed Gamemmode name slightly to increase clarity that it was used with this mod.
-Bots now properly use the vanilla OHD cone of fire implementation instead of none at all. (woops hehe) Bots should no longer shoot lazer beams and are back to their vanilla accuracy.

[tulip jasper]

ah, what was the problem with that

it feels like my bots are using lazers too

it's because you made a child of the player char BP ?

and somehow it reset the code of fire ?

because i didnt touch anything about that, and people are complaining about bots being harder than vanilla
(we can move this to #💬general_modding if you dont wanna clog your thread, sorry)

[torpid whale]

Nah its fine we can talk about it here. Its nothing to do with the player char BP, at least I dont think. It has to do with the recoil handler

If you look in the AI controller you can see that bot deviation essentially works by using pure cone of fire with their own private min and max deviation values

I made the area that controls cone of fire in the recoil handler assigned only to the local player, which essentially turned off the bots access to using cone of fire

I think there still is actually another area that I screwed up their cone of fire as well, which I am going to update again soon.

[tulip jasper]

weird then that it's a problem for me

i'll have to investigate

[torpid whale]

What mod are you having the issue?

[tulip jasper]

it was in the past, in discontinued KotZ

[torpid whale]

weird

[tulip jasper]

yeah 🤷‍♂️ it's polish, ill tackle it later

[torpid whale]

Could just be the nature of the design. Since it encourages everyone to all circle into one spot, it would be more common for you to run in front of a bot making it feel like you're getting shot by bots more. Especially given theyre coming from multiple directions all facing you

[tulip jasper]

yup might be dubious feedback 😉

i didnt feel they were that more accurate, but yeah

[torpid whale]

@tulip jasper I’m moving this conversation here.

I don’t think it’d be too much micromanagement if it’s just an option to use. Just bring up the spawn menu select the spawn menu and have a button that says select squad spawn next to the respawn button.

Ammo system I think was actually done really well in squad, one area I would change it is, if you change to a kit with the same weapon type, grenade, etc you’d still keep those items

I would probably keep the ammo from emplacements separate from resupply ammunition however, it to prevent some random sl building mgs and mortars then proceeding to drain all the resupply ammo

Another way I could see improvement is if you select a fob to spawn at it will automatically resupply you and the second you select the respawn button the required ammo will be allocated to resupply. This would be to limit spawning at a fob only for the last bit of your ammo being taken by a sniper kit right when you spawn.

[torpid whale]

Tactical Gunplay Overhaul: PR Style Gunplay (PR mod)

[tulip jasper]

yah i was gonna suggest moving the convo, but 🤷‍♂️ talking design is part of modding 😉

[torpid whale]

Doing it in sdk help is pushing it a bit lol

[tulip jasper]

if you select a fob to spawn at it will automatically resupply you
yeah, idk why it's not a thing.
Maybe to punish people forgetting to resupply, or to give the option to not resupply and keep the ammo for other needs (which no one would do, everyone is selfish and just would take the ammo they want)

[tulip jasper]

nah, anything modding related is fine anywhere in both theses channels

as long as it's like that, i'm pretty happy.

[torpid whale]

ah kk

[torpid whale]

Update on the bipod system, big thanks to Yoshi_Five for figuring out the pivot system. Seems jankier then the in editor mounting system but this is actually able to be replicated unlike the in editor system.

[old ember]

@torpid whale Do you have the math worked out for how your method will be weighted? I'm working on a project to make a VR Handgun Controller and a Rifle Controller. The parts of your method that wouldn't be solved by the gyro could be written on top as a layer.

[torpid whale]

What do you mean by weighted? I’m not too familiar with VR

[old ember]

So they have a cool multiplier in livelinkxr and openvr

It basically winds down (or up) on the response from the gyroscope

So it can take wide variations and render them into small movements on the character

You can also use it to take the edge off the jittery-Ness of your animation

It's basically a built in filter for the gyro, which is actually better than having to write your own unless you need to.

It can also take small movements and turn them into large sweeping changes

[torpid whale]

Ah interesting, Im not sure if that would work for our implemenetation because how OHD movement works now you cant change the acceleration of the character without screwing up replication, you have to use its movement. Thats why the vanilla mounting system doesnt work because it uses SetRelativeLocation instead of movement input

[old ember]

Ok

[torpid whale]

So I dont think that you can remove the jitters atm without fucking with replication

But I havent tried any of those yet so maybe thats the exception

[torpid whale]

Right but try simulating that in simulation using a listening server with a 2nd player

[old ember]

So your project is about more than just gun dynamics? I'm not sure I've seen all of the idea

[torpid whale]

Its a mounting implementation that can be replicated for multiplayer

[old ember]

When you say mounting you mean like changing the gun position?

[torpid whale]

I mean simulating reduced recoil and increased accuracy when mounted onto a surface with the player pivoting from the mounted guns position

Mgs have bipods so they benefit more

[old ember]

Ok, MGS4 had a pretty cool dynamic in place, snake get tired, etc. They definitely made the Mark 23 behave differently suppressed

How far are you along or are you also waiting for things from upstream?

[torpid whale]

Its going all right, being held up by this mounting implementation but after this I'll probably start adding more factions and balancing things

[old ember]

Cool I'll hang out and see if I can make the VR work, what I really want is to rig an electric air valve to a rifle and have the controller trigger the air pressure and cycle it, let the gyro measure the recoil and then write on top for suppressor stuff etc

Real controls for an in game flashlight too

[torpid whale]

Still hard at work with the bipod system, more complexity then expected but Im making progress. Heres a video of the new pitch compensation system

[torpid whale]

Here’s a link to another mod I am helping out with. Generally it’s a persistent warfare mod similar to foxhole or planetside. I am still dedicated to this mod as well, just something I’m doing as well
https://discord.com/channels/93829266994638848/1089333830592233522

[torpid whale]

Been a while for an update, Sorry about that. This mod is now my primary focus, bipods are essentially in the "good enough stage" to start being tested. The way they are implemented currently is a pretty haphazard method as a workaround for issues with replication, so how I am planning on doing this is releasing bipod and mounting as a seperate mod from original mod. I want to get some feedback if people actually prefer this system over the PR deploy and undeploy method

Heres some third person animations that are just about good enough for testing. You can see that the player adjust his height depending on the pitch of the gun

My overall goal of bipod is not necessarily for the aesthetic to look perfect but to have them overall function well for gameplay. So unfortunately there will be some clipping of bipods in surfaces, and the 3rd person animations will have some awkward movement and occasionally the bipod will be "floating" above mounted surface.

There also is a workaround I had to do to prevent the player from colliding into surfaces and misaligning the mount location. The biproduct of this is that player needs a generous amount of space around them inorder to initiate a mount. The colliding issues is still partially present in that you can do a continuous walking animation into surfaces if you attempt to keep moving in the direction of a colliding surface while mounted.

[tulip jasper]

talking about MG , did you look into supression ? and amping it it up?

[torpid whale]

Yah next update (after bipods) is planning on addressing suppression

[tulip jasper]

💪

[torpid whale]

I'm planning on adding different effects, a shaking animation when suppressed, and different weapons causing greater or less suppression effects.

[tulip jasper]

just throwing it out there 😄
https://streamable.com/tnxzx5

tbh not everyone liked the idea, wasnt really tried, mod died

[torpid whale]

I do plan on adding blur maybe not that dramatic but something similar. I might be going close to a hybrid between this and hell let loose. Depending on how well I can figure out post process effects

I also do want to add a heavy breathing sound effect too or something

@tulip jasper Do you see it causing a major issue if I added a enumerator variable to the bullet actor for server performance? One method I was thinking about implementing the variable suppression effect depending on the weapon was adding a enumerator that defines the bullet caliber to each bullet actor.

[tulip jasper]

yeah this is a blur based on distance, so the goal was to let people still have awareness of their surrounding, to move and take cover, but not being able to shoot back, at least effectively

[tulip jasper]

nah i dont think it's a problem

though idk if id do it like that

because iirc, proj are definied in each weapons and it'll be a pita if you have to edit all weapons (and also thinking about later when mutators are in play, other mods...)

though you can get what weapons shot what projectile iirc

though if you only need the caliber

i think each type of proj is a different caliber, not 100% on that

[torpid whale]

Ooo I like the idea of blur based distance

[torpid whale]

Yah I could do it based on blueprint class too i guess. But it would be annoying to have a billion different conditions for each weapon type

[tulip jasper]

yeah based on caliber should do

[twin crest]

This is one of those ideas that be received very differently depending on how it is applied. The effect is too high for a few bullets whizzing by, even for Squad. If it's constant fire from an MG right on top of you, sure, a strong sustained effect I can see, which Hell Let Loose does and overall I thought it was decent to good.

I think one of the biggest factors is giving players tools, and one easy goto is being able to better handle that situation when at max "stamina" versus bolting to cover and immediately expecting to return fire with full clarity.

Rather you get the full stamina back and now you can fight with reduced blur intensity and duration if you are still taking fire but there is still consequence built into both sides.

[twin crest]

It's interesting right? It makes me want to see how both distance and location could vary alongside different types of distortion effects

[torpid whale]

Yah, i'll defenitly experiment with it. Something tells me its gonna be too high of a contrast and it will look too weird like in the video. But from a gameplay perspective it makes sense

[twin crest]

I saw it in gameplay, that's pretty close, I think they had a slightly different version when I tried it but generally speaking if you already saw where your target is it becomes a memory game.

Part of that I think is why how exactly it works is so important because if it's easy to just blind-blur everyone than optimal play is just shooting everywhere with no real consideration to accuracy and precision and that is an exaggeration, but the point is to meet somewhere in the middle of the exaggeration and the effect not doing anything at all.

A quick example is the longer I ADS focus in a specific area, the clearer my vision should likely get adjusted for total fighting performance (like stamina), so not unlike how CS2 is using a volumetric effect to see through the smoke, if you are having trouble concentrating and things are blurring around you, tunnel visioning does tend to help a bit, likewise to me it fits the gameplay tradeoff of if you are able to hold an angle in that direction, then having clarity makes sense to me because the whole idea of suppression is to actually be dangerous if someone peeks you, not just wildly miss your shots and expect a reward, which most suppression systems in past games are, or worse, the BF3 suppression slot machine, where every single weapon, attachment, and perk centered on reducing the slot machine when every other gunplay mechanic was based on mechanical skill.

[tulip jasper]

again, it's intended to be a high effect , by design

Also, the effect needs to be significant, because the cost of giving your position away ,and being exposed while shooting , needs to be greater than the risk of being shot at yourself

and not just a visual representation to tell you:

you are being shot at

but rather:

you either find cover or die
And more importantly :
dont even think about re peaking it

but again it's a deliberate overexaggeratiron to get people to UNLEARN what they learned in squad : Shift + W the objective

The effect is too high for a few bullets whizzing by, even for Squad
Also it would have been tweaked, obviously , you dont get the same amount of blur from 9mm and 50 cal
and also it would increase over time the longer / more bullets / higher caliber bullets you receive in your geeneral area

[tulip jasper]

I wouldn't tie stamina to reducing blur.
The only thing i would see affecting blur (and it would only be duration) is if you have high Morale (aka having teammates around, especially the SL and the medics)

i would reserve stamina for run speed and duration , and sway (and maybe even ADS speed 😉 😉 ) and hold breath

[tulip jasper]

it definitively needs tweaking, it was just a PoC

[twin crest]

i dont understand why people think giving their position away in an fps is significant

it matters for like less than half a second

and unless the mechanic only works for that long, you now have a system that always works that way even when it doesnt matter

i can understand how someone newer to an fps or game might be "surprised", but that just isnt how a normal fps game plays

[twin crest]

this isnt how the mechanic worked in practice though

when someone shot at me i just shot back

why? i know the exact same effect will happen to the them and i was able to respond within an acceptable time period (for me)

its always possible in any game to be caught outside cover no matter what you do, there's no tactic or strategy that prevents this because you are always limited to not just the lack of information you have but also the lack of information that the enemy has meaning sometimes you will just both stumble upon one another and engage

and sure, everyone gets caught off guard and sometimes i will just run to cover without returning fire, but the thing with Squad that I think I will always praise it for is it's sound design. I didnt even have to think, I could just react in the general direction of the sound because that's just how good it was/is (unless it changed)

the thing i am less into Squad about is the TTK - if you actually got shot, there is a very good chance you are already downed, which alongside the slow movement speed, it genuinely doesnt even make sense to just "blindly" run for cover as oppose to firing back unless you already have decent momentum and you have a pretty strong indication that the player shooting you is terrible, which does happen.

and of course you should repeak it

you need to return fire and create suppression

thats literally what combat is

what are you going to do? just sit there an die???

you can maybe reposition to an extent, assuming you arent just obviously seen doing that, and if the enemy is dumb enough to just sit there suppressing the same angle with no visual than i guess they deserve to get flanked, but thats just not how games play - even the worst player knows how to push and even in Squad you can push while spraying a corner which if it causes you to have cataracts and asthma the entire time then the game will devolve into more of a spray slot machine fest than it already is.

and again, the concept is very good, but implementation is everything.

it's not secret why players would respond poorly to it, they know something is wrong but they dont always know exactly what it is and they certainly dont want to write a 1000 word essay explaining it either.

[twin crest]

no one is going to unlearn this because it's optimal play. [ there are exceptions, but it comes to really well thought out map design, most of Squad's maps were just open unrestricted spaces with obstacles, all you do is just to a place with over heard cover near enough to the objective, create a spawn, displace your resources, and out shoot the enemy - that's it ; the combined arms make this slightly more interesting but it was less interesting than Battlefield and even BF was in desperate need of improvements for years, only to get...like, none ]

if you take a longer flank and think you have a "good position", you just dont know what you are doing.

i tried to explain this over and over again to the "tactical-mil-sim" kids and they will just never learn

i know what they want the game to be, but they dont understand that isnt what the game is

[tulip jasper]

i mean i disagree

i wont write a 1000 essay either 😄

[twin crest]

the best Squad matches were with people who were clearly experienced in gaming in general and possibly team leading which means you can drop us into any game and we will play it the same way : identify what is important, relay the information to the people who are important, determine whether the players/game elements align to our identification, perform the task and repeat as needed

every game works like this

[twin crest]

thats fine, i can get the gist of what you mean anyway

those same squad matches are the same ones i had in Battlefield, Insurgency, and even CoD

same as in RTS's, same as in MMO's

that's why I tried to help Chanz understand it was about the players, not the game, and he refused to accept that

now he's not making anything.... as far as im aware, and that was never the goal

and im pretty sad about that frankly

but im pretty sure he is doing other life stuff anyway

another common example : that extreme Squad RM mod recoil : i recreated roughly what they did where the camera goes wildly out of control, it's actually hilarious

but the core concept isnt bad at all, and of course not, it's been in games here and there for awhile

[tulip jasper]

because it's not true 🙂

[twin crest]

progressively increasing recoil based on fire rate and it basically creates cone of fire just fine

[tulip jasper]

it's all about the game

and the design

and the rules

people will adapt to said rules

[twin crest]

see, you've just never been part of a team have you?

a group of organized players

[tulip jasper]

if the rules make it so you die over and over, you either adapt, or leave ^^

yeah but you think in your framework

i think in mine

[twin crest]

well obviously, the difference is whether the adaptation is interesting or not

[tulip jasper]

i dont vcare about organized team plays

i couldnt care less

[twin crest]

How lol!?!?!

[tulip jasper]

what i care about is pub games, and organic organization

[twin crest]

we are literally talking TEAM GAMES

[tulip jasper]

PUB TEAM GAME

[twin crest]

an organized group is what spontaneously happens in a pub

omg lol

[tulip jasper]

where the incentive of the individual player is way greater

[twin crest]

who do you think the pub players are????

[tulip jasper]

than any team incentive

[twin crest]

pub players are just the team players who randomly meet

the inexperienced players is just a future team player that hasnt learned yet

and if you think they are going to learn in one match or 10 matches its just not going to happen

[tulip jasper]

we just dont see things the same way

there is just no way around that 😄

[twin crest]

it literally takes years especially when factoring in maturity and experience

[twin crest]

thats ok but you have to give me actual real life examples lol

[tulip jasper]

like every single games i played ^^

[twin crest]

you are basically saying things are in complete countenance to decades of experience

[twin crest]

where? when?

[tulip jasper]

like i said

we dont see the same things

either we play in different parallel universe ^^ or smth

[twin crest]

bro just name a game lol

[tulip jasper]

always talking about squad

like... everytime

[twin crest]

are you only talking Squad right now?

ive played on a french server maybe once or twice

i think i played on german servers more often when US servers werent populated

[tulip jasper]

yeah maybe there is more organization on other servers 🤷‍♂️

i still see US people complain about it

[twin crest]

ok now im confused, are you saying there is organization or no organization ?

ive played on european servers across many games and it varies greatly

[tulip jasper]

yup

[twin crest]

generally i tend to observe there are less servers than US server across all games

[tulip jasper]

most of the time it's bad

[twin crest]

see thats what i mean, gaming is just like that

[tulip jasper]

yeah ofc you cant expect peak teamwork all the time

[twin crest]

i know you have experience before Squad though right?

or was it less multiplayer or something?

[tulip jasper]

not really no

[twin crest]

oh

well jesus of course you have no idea what im talking about

bro i might as well be telling you fairy tales

i dont even know how to condense 2 decades worth of multiplayer fps experience into a 1000 word essay lmao

the best i can say is that i have personally experienced random acts of teamplay in any given game in any genre

and like you say, sure, i can try to force any player to adapt to anything, but if my intent doesn't align with how the game actually plays and i cant both analyze, realize, and accept that, then im just not a good designer, and thats not even something that's obvious nor is it going to be clear to any given person.

that's what i was trying to explain to the user giving feedback on the OHD destruction system, the modern game industry makes it hard for designers to do their job.

like : way too hard

people need to be able to post rough works in progress that dont look great but get to test how it works

so when i say what i think will happen if that method is used, im not saying dont do it, im saying try it but be aware that could happen...but also let's find out while considering alternatives and how it can be expanded if needed.

we shouldn't be worried about finding out either, if anything it's part of the fun

but people saying 'oh you shouldnt release blah blah' like uh no, i want to see this stuff being tested, thats how you design

imagine going into a lab and telling people to stop testing how chemicals work, it doesnt look good, thats not how i want it presented : like wtf get out of here lol, but then you just end up with walled gardens that cant grow which sucks in a different way.