Remove Extra Stats from the skins - make them purely cosmetic!

[ebon relic]

Hi all,

So long awaited skin system is finally in the game... and while the stats are small, maybe not significant it does open door to what players do not like, which is a small advantage!

Since the skins have very little stat increase, it's just better to get rid of that stat increase all together and keep it pure cosmetic!

[bitter meteor]

Im 100% agree with that

[normal narwhal]

The community is not happy. Please remove the extra stats, they don't have place in this game

[mortal chasm]

Totally agree skins looks nice but that stat bonus can be a small advantage lately...

[honest axle]

I dont think that those small stats matter 🤷

As long as it stays so small

[ebon relic]

Then why have them at all? That is my point, if they don't matter just remove them 🙂

[honest axle]

Its a "justification trigger" to make decision to get them easier i guess (sales psychology)

[ebon relic]

It's causing unnecessary problems and players do not like skins with stats, it's a fact.

[ebon relic]

There are better ways to do that, most successful games do!

[hollow fable]

Every stat matters. I can’t catch up to all the inspiration levels now much less another 3-5 skin stats. Every stat matters that’s why we min /max everyday. This might be a game breaker for me

[ebon relic]

• make skins 100% cosmetic
• purchasable with money/yellow crystals
• purchasable with soul inprints like currently

I am not marketing guy, but this is proven system that prints money

As long as both methods are available, with money and without money people will be happy

[normal narwhal]

The "as long as it stays so small" is the problem here. This opens the door to future better stats , and it's about the principle of it ...

[honest axle]

I dont recall a "cosmetic only" 🫣

[normal narwhal]

In any case, that doesn't change the fact that probably a good number of players are not happy about it

[honest axle]

Well, like i said, i dont recall anything being said about that, but i can just not remember, but searching for it, i didnt see anything either, maybe one of them remembers when and who said it

[normal narwhal]

Of course ,nothing was said "officially", probably, and that's the "official" answer to this. Let's just put that aside.

[icy reef]

It is small stats, But it is a red flag. I hope the remove any kind of stats. Should be purely cosmetics.

[earnest egret]

100% i agreee

No stats

Cada vez más más p2w es el juego

[proud wolf]

Game is starting to be a milking system is a huge no go for some people.

[sharp sandal]

Skins shouldn't provide benefits, just decoration. Learn from mobas that skins don't provide stats or open gaps between paying and free players.

[proud wolf]

Because they only care about money and they don’t try to hide it (20 ex hero for 1 maxed skill 🤣, mount an other cosmetic shop, skins with stats, 300 pull for an ex hero, meanwhile 0 new content ) that’s perfect for them. They only want to milking whales. And they doing it perfectly, because if you don’t have all the skins at max lvl you losing stats while other whales have the full ones, so you need to buy it.

[noble dove]

Complete and utter p2w same devs who made bold statements about equal gameplay now eating their own words seriously wth

[proud wolf]

Devs are 100% same as OG version so it’s not a big surprise that they not the sharpest knives

[ornate pumice]

I don't understand @honest axle why in every comment you make, your tone seems aggressive and cocky. This intention (of skin stats) is wrong. And the majority of players are f2p or low spenders crucial for the life of the game. In general, we should stop saying that whales and krakens are supporting the game to run, they contribute in the cash flow but in a long term they don t preserve the profitability. And a business looks the long run not the direct profit to survive. So, depending your audience, this one tactic will make the biggest audience dissatisfied and harms business overall.

[honest axle]

Sorry if you feel offended by the way i word my comments in here, thats not my intention, i just tried to express my PERSONAL thoughts about the skins

And my believe still isy that skins are great, and i dont see it as harmfull if they have some minor stats, as long as its not something like atkspeed or skillhaste
Is the way how we can obtain them good? Maybe not, i wont be able to get them anytime soon either but they no gamebreakers so it really doesnt bother me.

[ornate pumice]

Every opinion is respected and should be expressed. Not in a way to trying to convince the opposite. If you ask 100 people you will get 100 opinions. The thing is to hear what the community says and the majority of players. That's matter after all. Otherwise, I can break down every tactic of the game business wise and tell you what is for community and what is for the profit and what is for boosting different audience segments.

[honest axle]

The officials know about the controversy in the community, and wheras negative voices always are "louder" we also got quite some good positive Feedback too and all of the feedback we get are being forwarded

[ornate pumice]

Yeah I am sure. Though the realistic feedback and most reliable is through surveys ingame. There you see what is the impact on your players. Anyway, indeed the stats are minor but as someone said above this open the doors for more (psychologic trick). Putting something so small and irrelevant, hard to consciously be noticed and then you keep raise it a bit and the resistance is lowered. This happens everywhere in wild competitive markets. Is it ethical though?! Have a nice one.

[proud wolf]

“And maybe you want to watch your Tone, all CAPS IS SCREAMING/SHOUTING”
by KelsierITobi on another topic.

Also kinda interested where exactly you got positive feedback about p2w skins and skin bonus stats. Whale private chat group or the whale personal msg channel?

[honest axle]

Dont know what your issue is in me moderating a fellow discord users behavior (full post in caps is considered rude/screaming on all forums etc) compared to me showing out that i mean my personal opinion but ok 🤷

And feedback that we got on various plattforms/servers is: skins itself sre great and welcome

stats: both opinions are there: could be more or none

most negative point across all comments is the cost-use factor, they are too expensive, even for dolphins/whales, cause why get a small statincrease via skins compared to inspiration(if not i5 already)

[icy reef]

I see no problem on the cost or on the way to aquire. The skin progression is also a cool concept. I see problem on the stats, that's a big mistake. No matter if they are little, it is a red flag.

[scenic sleet]

My opinion is that the skins are a separate item to the slippery slope of the stats they bring in, therefore whilst the feedback regarding the skins themselves will no doubt be positive, it’s quite clear that the stats MUST (for clarity) be removed and not snuck in the back door again.

In our own Guild of 5 Alliances, it’s been heavily criticised and there have been FTP and Dolphins who were about to make purchases, and now are considering leaving the game PURELY (for emphasis again 🤓) because of this step that was not touted to the masses until it was implemented

Was this on purpose perhaps………

[left furnace]

Tbh, i really like them having stats.. it's a system to reward player that either spend or play the game for some time.. since the stats are so small it's just a thing on start of a season, not even that maybe.

[onyx iron]

ok if you want to hear different voice, I'm ok with the stats and tbh I think it could be a little more to attract spenders. 20 attack is nothing even when u r lvl 50. But then I agree if many ppl have troulbe with the tiny stats, just get rid of it, but make the skins more appealing. The tire 1 to 2 is ok, and cost 3 ex souls. tire 3 and 4 is just some lousy work, basically changing the dragon color + unnoticeable avatar effect which cost 7 ex souls lol that's the real joke to me.
BTW, KB is talking really nicely here I don't get why ppl mad at him. and currently the skin stats isn't working at all.

[rancid bough]

Build an auction house where whales can auction off their extra inspirations for gems too 😄

I'd invest in some cheap inspirations

[uneven stream]

Paranoia is the only reason people see a red flag here.

[uneven stream]

You haven't been playing the game long enough of you think they only started wanting your money now.

Did we forget that we used to pay roughly $5 per summon?

This is literally the least egregious thing in this game currently 😒

[uneven stream]

You said nothing cocky and I read no aggression.

[icy reef]

Agree to disagree. Now is atk for Hvitar which is not a relevant hero out arena. But what's next? Skill haste on some other hero? Crit rate?

The door is open. A good skin system is purely cosmetics, not one more P2W system. Monetize the skins without involving atributes on it.

[uneven stream]

Agree to disagree Absolutely
This is why i said its paranoia, because right now its only a hypothetical.
The amusing thing is how this game has always had P2W elements and we didnt bat an eye lid.
This doesnt add an advantage at all.

So we dont need to assume they will do it in future. We should simply wait and see.

This is an "okay" implementation and while not "FULLY" cosmetic, it is 99% aesthetic. 200HP and 20 attack even on a level 50 character is inconsequential. There isnt a piece of content that anyone can say the stats being complained about, gave them an advantage

[icy reef]

I think the other way around. If they put any stats is because they are planning p2w power creep for future. If the intention was clear that that stats would remain irrelevant they would not put stats at all as we were expecting.

[uneven stream]

IF.

Hypotheticals. Thats why i said we wait and see. Because as it stands, they have made the game much cheaper than it has ever been to play. NOt to mention more accessible to all of us not just those who can spend.

I think i can comfortably give them the benefit of the doubt

[proud wolf]

*when.

[normal narwhal]

They are just testing the reaction of players

[uneven stream]

Just like the reaction of making summoning cheaper and all manner of QOL changes to the game?

Or is it only the cynical take when its implementations we dont like? 👀

[proud wolf]

I think you playing the game long enough so kinda interesting you even consider them to not try to milk the whales as much as they can. Kinda funny after you comments. You don’t see the pattern or you just ignoring it

[uneven stream]

I mean if you feel that way, good on you brother. I am blind and you are all-Noticing.
It is well

[normal narwhal]

It's not cynical to complain about things you don't like, regardless of all the good stuff. Please stick to this topic because bringing up other features of the game is not relevant to this conversation.

[proud wolf]

I’m not your brother boi.
If you wouldn’t be blind, you wouldn’t say stuffs you say 😅
cheaper summons but still 0 new content. Expect cosmetics with stats. Hurray I can summon more but can’t keep up because of an ex skin costs 20(!!!!!) ex hero shards.
Oh and also gave stats. But promised stuffs still missing 🤣

[uneven stream]

It is relevant if you are talking patterns. Because what pattern is being seen when this is the only instance.

So it is very relevant.

[normal narwhal]

well i think we can agree that the pattern we have seen since the relaunch is making the game more accessible to everyone, but that doesn't mean that a step that some of us consider to be in the wrong direction should just be ignored

It's good to discuss it

[uneven stream]

"That doesnt mean" So its subjective. And thats fine. But until a pattern forms, seems a little off to say you see a pattern. Let them do this a few more times then we can talk.

And i dont need to say it to you but YOUR CONCERNS ARE VALID.

I hope i didnt give you the impression they are not.

[normal narwhal]

Well to be honest, yes, reading your comments and others in the general chat seems like you think that the people are having concerns are: "paranoid" "not played long enough" "don't know maths" "riot for insignificant things" .... Sorry but that sounds to me like an attemp to undermine the validity of the discussion

It's fine if it's not your intention, just saying how it looks to me

[uneven stream]

Because the people talking about this are claiming it will happen that they will escalate. If that isnt being paranoid then i may have misunderstood the definition of the word.

The argument is being posed from a "Its only a matter of time till they do it" angle.

[scenic sleet]

IMHO and as stated in my post above #1421026403998105691 message

The issue is the stats, what they represent, and the likelihood of their being expanded to a much greater level IF allowed to do so.

Hardly anyone would be saying a word, if the Stats (however minor) weren’t there, but they are, and this is what FTP, Dolphins and the like are concerned about

To the point that they are considering leaving the game…….i have at least a few considering their positions currently in our Guild of 5 Alliances because of this situation.

How many more like them are there in the community now?

Why should this situation be allowed to potentially damage the platform when it was just beginning to get rid of a previously tarnished image?

@silk frost @slim crystal let’s get this thread put to the higher-ups and let THEM decide, because the feeling in the ranks is, that this could well be a game breaker……..

[uneven stream]

Well i hope they hear you

[wanton narwhal]

Beyond the importance that stats may have (which are currently symbolic), this opens the door to aggressive monetization towards more elements of this style and, progressively, with greater real impact. That's why, in my opinion, it's something that needs to be stopped now, one of the biggest red flags in any video game.

[honest axle]

It has been from the very first post. We Monitor this topic closely.

[hallow crescent]

Definitely need to remove the stats, was it really necessary to do this already? Are you thinking about the 70-80% of players or the whales? Who the hell has Hvitar duplicated 10 times? To people who don't understand, let me tell you: When someone has a deadly disease, the first symptoms are key and you have to eradicate it immediately, if you leave the virus in your organism, you will end up dying. Nothing more to add.

[left furnace]

Man idk.. this game got so extreme f2p friendly compared to it's original.. they did ALOT for the f2p community.
Can we stop thinking we need to get anything for free? There is no other gatcha in that genre that gives skins for bscly free.. and even for free skins that you can collect thru time people are mad about stats that aren't changing any outcome of any fight or that they can't get it right now for free.. why everyone got so spoiled?

Every inspiration gives more stats benefit then a skin and you get inspirations thru the same way.. what's different now? can't understand it

[wanton narwhal]

You're not getting the point of 99.9% of the complaints about stats on skins.

The complaints are not so much about the current stats (they are irrelevant atm) but about the precedent this sets and the door it opens to more aggressive monetization.

I agree that they have made the game much more accessible (which I'm not sure is really a good thing either),but that does not justify this latest move. At least not for me and many others.

[left furnace]

I do get that but they could have just made the skins shop items and be sold for real money.. which they are not. Everyone can get them for free and if you play long enough you'll get enought dupes to get the skins you want.. without paying. Even when the skins have stats that's bscly just another step into hero invest. Over the time people will have everything i5 (maybe not the exclusives) and every skin will be bought instantly when they get out.. we're at an early state of the game. Ofc people are short on dupes for now. That will change. We're getting alot more dice then the OG's got so we will outscale the value of the old seasons played very fast.

People need to look in the future.. what we doing when we have everything maxed? We need new systems by that time

I mean you can even garanty pulling exclusives now.. and we talking about the skins with stats D:

[wanton narwhal]

I don't really think you can get Hvitar Tier 4 skin even if you play for years as a F2P or Low Spender. I don't think that's the way to look at it, honestly.

I understand it as a way for the krakens to spend their leftover soul imprints, and that's fine with me, but not with stats involved.

Whales need ways to spend their accumulated resources and generate exclusivity, I completely agree. It's just the wrong approach.

[left furnace]

Yes and not getting everything as f2p is fine. Exclusive characters are the pinnacles of this game. You can get the heroes themselves with selectable summons. Why do you need them skins for free too?

Since they invented selectable summons there is nothing but inspirations we're working towards to. Game lost alot of prestige for the people that spend or play the game for a long time and use their ressources well or even got dang lucky. I won't get an exclusive skin myself and i think this is totally reasonable.

[wanton narwhal]

Man, the point its not the cost (which is absurdly high, but that's another topic), are the stats.

Most of us are fine with the skins, most of us are fine with it being inaccessible to most players and, at the same time, most of us find it an aberration that stats are included in them. In fact, that's what this thread is about:
https://discord.com/channels/928541801260908546/1421026403998105691

[left furnace]

Since the skins are free to get and even that easy to get i'd even like them stats to be higher tbh

Wales will beat our behinds with or without skins but as soon people can touch the skins they get more benefit from it

[wanton narwhal]

You contradict yourself. First you say, Why do you need them for free too? and now you mention: Since the skins are free to get and even that easy to get i'd even like them stats to be higher tbh.

Gameplay performance should never, ever be compromised by the cosmetics of a game with healthy monetization. There's no other way.

[left furnace]

Not really.. the first time i was reffering to exclusive skins the second time i was reffering to normal hero skins :b

[left furnace]

i only agree to that if the cosmetics are only easy to get with buying them from the shop which is not the case here

[wanton narwhal]

Well they all are free and, in turn, they are tremendously expensive

[left furnace]

i think they are even too cheap lol.. leaving the exclusive skin out

[wanton narwhal]

You need an insane amount of Soul Imprints to get them (considering that anyone in their right mind would inspire the hero first).

Can you get it for free? Yes, indeed.

But I repeat: The problem isn't the cost, it's the stats.

[left furnace]

You will pull heroes that you will never use and once you bought every art you can go and buy skins now.. i think this is really cool
but even if we leave the cost of them behind and only focus on the stats i think they should even higher the numbers. Not even whales gonna have them skins T4 for some time

[wanton narwhal]

Yay, the skin per soul system is great. The stats on it its not. As simple as that.

But hey, that's my way of seeing it, and from what I understand from this little conversation with you, we disagree on it. Which is totally respectable.

[icy reef]

This topic is about the stats. Not about the skin price. It can be as high as they want so whales can use their dupes to purchase. Just don't give stats.

Good exemple is the new dragon. That thing looks gorgeous. I won't ever get it and it is fine. I think whales who spend spend enough time and money to be top 3 multiple times deserve to have that mount that is impossible to me. But it does not give stats.

Should be the same principle for skins.

[left furnace]

yeah totally, i understand why people don't like the stats.. i just see it from another pov

in the end i am fine with both.. having stats on them or not.. doesn't change a thing to me

[haughty elm]

evening all i totally agree with you gorax this is just another way to get krakens to spend and it is fustrating

[onyx iron]

If you hate krakens to spend how do you expect a gacha game to sustain f2p contents 😂 I don’t mind getting rid of the stats now because they’re just joke. They are just not attractive at all

[wanton narwhal]

But buddy, we all agree that the stats now are irrelevant. As we have said repeatedly, this simply opens the door to more aggressive plans.

They're irrelevant now. What will they do later to make the new ones they release more attractive? Powercreep will arrive sooner or later.

[proud wolf]

Next thing is going to be a change So every skin you have going to give bonus stats for all the heroes you are using in the team

[onyx iron]

I think you feel the same concern that the monetization plan of new version, if it can sustain. Bro I totally understand why f2p community here hate it, just want to share what I saw from my CN spender community, it’s also ranting at the skins, just totally different perspectives… not saying it’s right but I always compare dh with rsl which I used to invest heavily, dh is much more f2p friendly, even more with the price drop and ex selector of new version, which pissed off many og krakens. Just see how many new ex and inspiration you got after new version vs old, they are lowering the p2w ceiling which is good for the community but how about enough players get to i5 after a few seasons? Well rsl is greedy but damn how that game manage to survive so many years and still going strong, u think it’s not because of the power creep and new p2w mechanics one after one? It’s the ugly nature of gacha industry, without it just can’t sustain, just mho 😅

[finite umbra]

Imo they should have just made the max level of the skin the ability to walk around as the character in the overworld

[digital tide]

First let's address "Small stats". One, how are the stats being applied? If they are applying skins as Base stats they're not small.

Two, This encouraging over investment into a singular character. Basically creating a gaming environment with not satisfying completion. No one really likes that. Most players would rather invest in a new character than to continue to invest in an old one just to be replaced later.

Three, skins should be fun and not feel like a requirement. There are multiple games that prove that players are willing to spend$$ on their favorite characters purely for aesthetics.

Compromise would be removing the stats and placing them in the shop for 10$ each. They will sell. Create more skins each season ppl will buy

Or leave the stats but allow for any inspiration token (within an affinity) trade for a skin. Remove the requirement for exclusive tokens for exclusive characters.

Thank you for your time.

[scenic sleet]

Bump

[scenic sleet]

Is there any update on this please, we have members of our Alliance and Guild who are literally awaiting news on it before deciding whether to walk away from the game, thanks

[icy reef]

Also the question @digital tide is important. how are the stats applied? are they 20atk added in the end or are they base stats that get multiplied by inspiration, gear, elemental affinity etc...?

I tried to find out on Shinnah skin and it does not show stats change when i add or remove the skin.

[scenic sleet]

Ahhhhhhh more hidden stats 🙈

Stop hiding them and apply them at the point any Alliance buffs, Equipment (hourglass etc) buffs, or other buffs are applied to the hero, regardless of the stats “only being applied” at the point of use