Keep Inflation Down - Market Tax

[hushed storm]

Market Taxes are used in many games to keep the amount of inflation down.
10% minimum tax rate

Should be implemented here with other gold sinks. Carpentry I thought would be a sink but the last tier making the gold amount 0 defeated it.

[devout cypress]

I agree, but please no more then 1% then see how the market moves and make more adjustments later

[cold axle]

we definitelly need a way to fight this inflation, balancing jobs wont do the work, we need actual ways to take out gold from market

new system or something

[ionic pumice]

10 is too high should be lower.

[ionic pumice]

Professions need to be buffed or combat needs to be nerfed.

[cold axle]

combat doesnt have anything to do with inflation btw, inflation is made by making gold out of nowhere, the more gold in circulation thats why gold is less valued thus increasing the prices of everything

the problem are the profesions wich can sell very high value to npc

thats causing the inflation

[ionic pumice]

Get rid of selling to npc and nerf professions across the board

Make it a player driven economy

Look what the tools are worth now that he took them off market

Do the same with weapons. Make things destructible

Have 100 titanium bars to repair 1% of a godly weapon

Resource sinks are missing.

[cold axle]

this could actually works yea, kinda harder to rebalance everything, i guess its kinda easier to just add some heavy money sinks system etc

[ionic pumice]

Resource sinks would be great too. Like feed any foraging item to buff exp.

Or any item and have an item value for each thing.

I have an alt dedicated to cutting wood.

It won’t ever make as much as someone who does mining/smithing or anything else right now.

I like the idea of using resources to get a buff that has an increased chance of chests.

That lasts like 1hr per x number of items.

Then close the NPC selling entirely and let the market adjust.

Only have gold come from combat/chests

And make combat much harder.

You shouldn’t be able to have the 0% hit on bosses

Or the dragons

That would fix the game honestly. Right now if we keep going at this rate we will have godlike gemstones be worth 100mil in 2 weeks.

6-8-10m now it’s going to jump to 12-14 ect

[devout cypress]

You get gold from mobs, so first remove that if you think selling to NPC is bad

[cold axle]

yea, i would remove that too, but selling to npc is definitelly the biggest problem

[devout cypress]

One more idea is to add clan tax for all trades while also add a scaling (whit the buffs) clan maintenance. And let it be adjustable 1-5%

[honest kettle]

Seconding the idea and for 1%

[cold axle]

nah 1% would be too low, at least 5% would make a slightly noticeable change

[thorn prairie]

5% truew

[solid raft]

tax can be a double edge weapon in a game with infinite resource

the tax will be imposed onto player directly

if a commodity used to go for 100, now it will go for 110 to maintain the same price

[devout cypress]

Its more on demand and supply then the tax price, as you can now see whit the ore price crashing, and the price for low end smiting items (oversupply due to no demand) But an item can easily be taxed 3-5 times if it gets fliped. I bet on average a Trilion gold gets moved back and forth between players over trade every day. Whit 1% that 10 Billion out of the system

[cold axle]

if you sell an item in 100 without taxes, then the seller will get 100 and thats it, if you sell at 110 with 5% tax, then it means 5.5 gold is gone from the game forever, thats the point of the taxes, take gold out from the game, thats about the normal market sell

but if you add the safe trade from friends not from safe guild, and the trade between alts in a safe way not in same guild, then you just add tons of gold getting out from game every second

the price of every items going up "5%" only to get the same amount of gold wouldnt matter in the long run, bringing out gold on every transaction will just make the inflation slow down a little on increasing

[mossy geyser]

I agree with this but it should be when you list an item. That way buying up all the cheap items and increasing the price is risky as if it doesnt sell you could have to relist lower and pay the tax twice.

[daring dune]

it should be when you list an item, but I agree

[sharp flax]

I agree, 5% market listing tax from total sell price of item(s) would be a nice way to combat inflation. Also it would stop a lot of players from relisting items to undercut prices.

If I want to list an item(s) for a total of 100g it should cost me 5g, and 1mil should cost 50,000g. etc

[gritty zephyr]

just seen this and thought ide say this games that tend to tax a market place and have additional ways to transfer loot between players (guild vault) "would" end up being more of a headache having to deal with players complaining about being scammed through value trading to avoid tax , Easily fixed obstacle though just wanted to point it out(also capping how much gold can be made daily vendor selling could help)

[mossy geyser]

Not sure i agree with daily cap on vendoring as this could allow prices to drop below their vendor price.
Definitly the market listing could lead to people being scammed but that would just have to be if you get scammed that way then tough luck maybe. Like a note saying are you sure before you send gold or items maybe?

[elfin garnet]

Market tax would just make players not use open trade anymore. It would all just be sent via private trade. The vendoring with horsey and negotiation is what's causing this to happen.

[gritty zephyr]

i feel like removing gold drops from chests would help too thats gotta be a huge influence

[still totem]

the inflation can be fixed by a certain amount* per items

[gritty zephyr]

alright so the way i see it is we just need more coin dumps currently theres inventory space and stuff like that theres always gonna be ways to bring loads of coins into the economy (chests,vendorselling,combat farming,plundering) im fairly certain tax wont work since there will be more coins being brought in then taxed imo(quick example say you buy/sell a seed for 100 get taxed 10 (buyer or seller) grow the seeds chances are you can already atleast 3x that 100 coins in fruit vendor value generated out of thin air)

[sharp flax]

Limiting price changes in market is another way to go. For example an item average sell price is 10000g, it can be listed 25% max below (7500g) or 25% max above (12500g) and make the lowest possible price the npc base sell price. The average sell price would need to be tracked and updated regularly. (daily at most) This would stabilize prices in market, but im not sure if it would solve the inflation of items or gold.

[gritty zephyr]

this would help inflation market effects but would require market demand tracking to see if items are undervalued/overvalued(allot of work) but yeah gold and items would still rise

[elfin garnet]

The problem isn't the market the problem is that the gold bring in is high and that the players with alot of gold get bored and fight in the market

[stone mauve]

combat is EXACTLY what is causing inflation. that and plundering. you literally create hundreds or thousands of gold in seconds with them.

[compact lantern]

pretty sure when I sell titanium plate bodies to the vendor for 200m that's doing way more damage than either combat or crafting in the same time period lol

[stone mauve]

From experience. You need enticing ways to remove gold.

Along with taxes.

• Lotteries where people can purchase tickets, for 10k.. at the end of lottery, 50% is deleted, the other 50% goes to winner

• 1% tax on market

• all npc sales should be 1gp. To encourage market trading, increasing amount going to taxes

• customizations for characters that double in cost each tier. Such as titles, fame, other metrics to judge eachother against one another.

@compact lantern youre also deleting resources when you do that. Keeping the player market in check for those items.. if youre referring to selling to npc.. if youre referring to selling on the player market, youre not creating or deleting anything. Youre just transferring your resources for someone elses gold. The same amount exists, its just who has what on their account.

[compact lantern]

just saying that gold generation from smithing far outpaces gold generation from either combat or plundering

[elfin garnet]

By alot

Gold from combat isn't that good

[stone mauve]

Havent gotten smith that high up yet.

Regardless of WHAT creates the gold. The issue is nothing removes the gold besides a few upgrades.

Effective way to immediately remove millions of gold is a 50% lottery. 50% goes to winner, other half deleted.

[icy heart]

Combat is terrible for gold gen and has sinks like food and arrows to delete resources

This is the notable drops from vampires over 30k kills, chests and keys are assuming highest worth vendor drop/gold (minus gem). Totaling 31.5m or about 1045gp per kill

Minus food costs and/or arrows if archer

[stone mauve]

I was not saying there arent other ways to generate gold, or that combat is the best way.

I was arguing that combat does in fact, create gold without much sinking out in return.

You still have to remove the gold, without a cap (like how the upgrades stop at certain tiers, once everyone gets everything)

[icy heart]

Read that again and tell me it doesn't sound exactly like what you were saying lmao
Again you have both food and arrows being deleted constantly on top of the 123M worth of market upgrades

[gritty zephyr]

i feel like the only 2 gold generating activities should be plundering and base combat gold loot that should keep a steady amount coming in besides these gold drops should be removed from chests and vendoring items should no longer be a thing maybe a guild incentive to recycle items could help with item inflation throw a slight tax on market and things should be fine

[still totem]

ngl tho gold drops is quite trash and at the highest fighting area/not the bosses, give the same money as the lowest lvl ones, making the fighting at the highest level not really worth except for refinement stones

[still totem]

food costs are easy to go by XD, just cook some fishes then you're done

[elfin garnet]

How much anglers do you fish then cook in an hour? Because it's not cheap food wise to be a mage

[still totem]

hmm just cook something like fast to make

or just pufferfish

since the higher the fish you cook the better healing you get

its the fastest food you can get other than spending a lot of money just to get burger if you dont have premium

[elfin garnet]

Anything below angler and you risk death as a mage

[still totem]

hmm for mage its hard ngl

since i used to be a mage

[elfin garnet]

You place in leaderboard?

[still totem]

nope

i dont

[elfin garnet]

Ah it gets better after 100 but it's still outrageous

[still totem]

for mage its

1751

so yeh in terms of food meh

[elfin garnet]

I'd wake up dead if I logged out on cerb with that food

[still totem]

XD

[elfin garnet]

Buff mages

[still totem]

hmm ngl tho

the problem with combat is that we dont have skills

to make combat a lil bit easier/interactive

[elfin garnet]

We got off topic so to bring it back the man that posted this didn't understand that vendor is biggest problem with horsey and negotiation pot and he hates combat for some reason and blames combat

[still totem]

mhm

negotiation pot should have a bit big buff like 50% sell price to non player

to make some stuff better to sell in stores than players

[elfin garnet]

With horsey and potion I've seen people make over 200m in one sell

[floral gazelle]

i feel like youve never done combat. i have 3 combat accounts and i make less than all of the skillers in my guild. Combat comes with food cost (and arrow cost if youre an archer) and the mobs dont really drop much gold, its mostly just items that we have to sell to other players. The only time i make a decent amount is if the keys i get drop anything, but even still bosses have a way higher food cost and ive come out of 50 boss keys with a net loss if you factor in food and arrows

[mossy geyser]

I dont think we should be arguing about what makes the most money.
This is a discussion on how there could be more gold sinks in the game.

I love the idea of a lottery and also a 1% tax on market. Simple small things that can remove a bit of the gold from economy so prices dont continually skyrocket

[gritty zephyr]

^ both of these and seen a suggestion on combat gear pages would be a nice gold sink addition too

[sharp flax]

Durability on weapons, tools and gear is another way. Where you have to use gold to repair them + needs smithing or crafting skill level. If you don't meet the skill level you have to rebuy or craft gear again. Godlike can have no durability since its end game. For how long a weapon or tool should last would depend on the tier of items your skilling or combat on.
Ex: fishing puffer would do less dur dmg than tuna or fighting zombies would do less than vampires or bosses.

How long a tool would last:

• Normal Pickaxe: copper-iron ~12hours, silver ~8 hours, coal ~6 hours...
• Refined Pickaxe: copper-iron ~1 day, silver ~12 hours, coal ~8hours...
• Great Pickaxe: copper-iron no dur dmg, silver ~1 day, coal ~12hours...
• Elite Pickaxe: copper-silver no dur dmg, coal ~1 day, gold ~12hours...
• Superior Pickaxe: copper-coal no dur dmg, gold ~1 day, platinum ~12 hours...
• Outstanding Pickaxe: copper-gold no dur dmg, platinum ~1 day, meteorite ~12 hours...
• Godlike Pickaxe: no dur damage for all ores
  (this is an basic example of how tool tiers and ore tiers would last)

With this the gear, weapon, tools market would reflex the repair cost vs buying a new one. There can also be a system on repairing where theres a chance to loss max durability where over time it would lead to getting a new one. An upgrade can be added to the dealership shop for less chance on losing max durability on repairing. This can make players pay other players to repair gear for them similar to how refining works.

[coral girder]

How is combat an issue for gold generation? Titanium plate bodies produce gold from nothing and is the real reason this is happening. Food and arrows are not a gold sink either. They are produced and sold. The gold is transferred from one account to another. The only gold sink currently is upgrades. I have a few things I think could help for now

1 - Limit the amount of items sold to vendor per day. Max 100 items. (Not a sink but slows the process)

2 - Lower the sale price of most smithing items.

3 - A 5-10% tax on sold items would be okay but not for listing. You are only taxed on the sale.

4 - Vendor only items (Boss keys, Potions, buffs, de buffs). You could sell all sorts of vendor only items that could produce sinks and help the economy thrive

[past hemlock]

This is true, make it 10% its reasonable.

"Tax the rich" ~Bernie Sanders

[elfin garnet]

No don't tax the rich I need all my gold for insider tradeing

[still totem]

man

these loot drops

quite unfair

what i mean by unfair that the gold drop should be the same bruh

or black dragon should be higher cuz you are fighting a dragon yknow

[sharp flax]

Black dragon missing a 0 in that 12 gold I bet. Could be its own bug report.

[potent bobcat]

If I kill 200 an hour, get the full 200 per kill that only 40k, I smith close to million an hour to sell the vendor. Combat isn't the issue at all.

[solid raft]

A clan upkeep to keep the bonus active?

That will be a decent sink

[potent bobcat]

Or even a new set of boost that cost gold and credits. Skills not needed.

And their timed boost. Like 10% accuracy or 50% speed boost to the tool you're using (10% for goldlike), double your chamce to get gemstones for a few hours (including goldike)

Mobs take 10 percent more dmg, half effective for bosses

[compact lantern]

upgrades should be cheaper and not permanent tbh

[potent bobcat]

Like clan upgrades or personal upgrades?

[compact lantern]

both honestly, but mostly personal for gold sinks

[potent bobcat]

Eehhh, I don't like it because I've upgraded a lot of them already

[solid raft]

But tbh..when u can afford clan boost..u def don't need them anymore

Minus the last house, my clan already finish all house and perks

[compact lantern]

it's easy enough to refund based on tier for already purchased upgrades

[solid raft]

And that was done with 2person mostly with 6 acc

[compact lantern]

tbh I am maxed on the upgrades except for the new toolbelt and I wouldn't mind

[potent bobcat]

We have last house and 2 more perks

Oops, 3

[solid raft]

My friends used to log in once a day but they dont login anymore after we got everything

Lol

I stay logged in on 1 acc to do farming thats all

Rather than inflation..i think contents is also a factor

[potent bobcat]

Farming sucks, I'm 98 and 99 is 15 hours with no boost and dragon seeds

[solid raft]

Im 110 104 and 101 i think lol

Its not that bad compare to..fishing maybe

[potent bobcat]

All three farming ??? Yikes

[solid raft]

Ye

[compact lantern]

fishing is better if you count the cooking xp

[solid raft]

I would have diamond enchant all of them

[potent bobcat]

Woodcutring. That's my nightmare

[solid raft]

But i dont have money

😆

[potent bobcat]

Redwoods are useless and logs are cheap enough to where I don't mind buying them.

I have 5k dragon fruits just waiting to be used

[spice acorn]

only having one account per IP would help keep the inflation down

[sharp flax]

VPN people be exploiting that, also people invested premium into alts so its hard to take it away.

[spice acorn]

3% tax works well in most games.

[mossy geyser]

How about a buff thats purchaseable with gold that gives an XP buff for a certain amount of time.

Make it scale with total level or something along those lines and get more expensive as you get to the top tier

[potent bobcat]

I mentioned something like this

[wise drum]

You mean inflation like premium tokens are more and more expensive? its because people are greedy.if you need it you will buy anyway even if it is expensive

[potent bobcat]

If you're not willing to spend rl money then why should I sell premuim for cheap ?

[wise drum]

why you talk to me like you know me? i try to show the inflation has nothing to do with tax and even the idea is wrong. I think it's the opposite if there was a tax in game that would inflate the playershop prices.

[potent bobcat]

LMAOOOOO. I used you as a general everyone.

Everyone wants a gold sink and i agree there should be one. Taxing is not it.

[wise drum]

it was just wrong to use me such way. The idea is wrong to control playershop market prices. there is something called Marshallian cross, you cant just manipulate prices artificially. if there is demand and no supply the price goes up.

[potent bobcat]

I'm not replying to this. Be offended. Goodbye.

[wise drum]

bro u just did ❤️

[sharp flax]

Tokens aren't the problem since it's bought with money or players gold. So it's just gold being traded between players to buy a one time use item. The players that are buying them with money and selling are going to use that gold on the player shop or on upgrades etc. The prices will go up on those when demand isn't high enough, but when iOS comes they might become lower with the new demands.

[wise drum]

I think you misunderstood something. When the demand is high that's when the price goes up. When people buy your pricey things you can raise the price. When people doesn't buy your stuff and you want to sell you will decrease the price .

Then I don't understand what inflation you guys are talking about?

[sharp flax]

We are talking about the gold that comes from the void. Which reduces the value of gold that inflates the gold prices since there is more gold overall.

[wise drum]

Ohh I see. You mean when you sell stuff to the "npc" and get the gold, that is wrong?
So you think it should be harder to get money? Btw that's the only way to get money in the game is from the game. You can get it from chest monsters or selling things to the "game store"

[sharp flax]

Yes we will always need some ways to get gold from outside the player shop, but one time purchased upgrades willnt be enough to fight the long term gold inflation. That's why we need repeating gold sinks like shop taxes or buff that you buy with gold etc to take the extra gold away from the player shop.

[wise drum]

I don't think so you need to artificially try to manipulate the prices. The demand and supply will always change price. It's not so easy to do so anyway. Could cause the opposite effect. The rich get even richer and poor more poor. I don't believe this method.
Even though all the prices went up,still everything went up so there was a basic balance in it. That's my opinion. I'm against this tax thing. I can understand you see differently the things.

[rare rune]

market tax is good to prevent market manipulation.

If you have a 5% tax when selling goods nobody will buy x item for 95 and then sell for 100 as it will not return a profit for them, so there will be no reason to raise the price by manipulating the market.

OFC super rich ppl will still do it, but they will lose a lot of money in the process. -> it is kinda like taxing the rich

[elder juniper]

im thinking price brackets, working on right up now but similar to how Black Desert Online market system works high and low end for each item, allows people to make coin from buy low sale high but prevents crazy changes overall

[flint hatch]

10% would be wild

[sharp flax]

Black Desert Online has a good market system.
I love how you can place pre orders and if players sell a item same price or lower than the pre order it automatically gets sold to the highest pre order. If there are multiple players that placed the highest pre order at the same price, then the item is sold randomly.
They also have commission sells tax of 30% and 5% tax from clan that owns the region, so 35% taxes but if you have value pack (premium sub) tax is reduce by 30% which is ~15% total.
I'm not saying to have taxes that high but its possible to have lower taxes on premium players than normal players as a bonus. The pre order system would be a huge QoL feature.

If you want to read about it: https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Wiki?wikiNo=47#:~:text=The Central Market is the,menu (hotkey%3A Esc).

[flint hatch]

Changing it to be more like the RS GE would be nice yeah with buy requests and sell requests, problem is thats a PITA in the coding department tbf ive seen a few games attempt and give up on such a feat. but with that it would be nice to set the tax on the buy offers and sell offers rather than the people who are fulfilling those offers. Im still arguing for a 1-3% tax max and rebalancing of the ingame vendor system

Also unsure i havent played BDO in a long while isnt there a non-centralized market by region that also offers less tax?

[sharp flax]

Not sure if that's still like that, all the markets seems to linked but each region has different guilds controlling them and I think they might be able to choose to tax or not but the tax mostly goes for grinding locations.

[past hemlock]

Tax the rich.

[sharp flax]

Orphanage system, players donate gold to reach a daily goal. When the goal is reached there is a 2 hour buff to all players that donated for gold drops, exp, item rarity drop rates, and chest rarity rates. When the goal isn't reach it still progresses the next day.

This could be a completely optional gold sink which everyone benefits from.

We could change it to a weekly goal that buffs 2 days of the weekend or something. Donating can also be a clan/personal quest. Add leaderboards for top donators.

screenshot from simplemmo

[delicate path]

general taxes in games have been a 5-7% on items. the more money an item sells for the higher the tax should be. example 1 mil = 10% 5 mil 15% 10 mil 25%

when selling bulk smaller items the tax should still apply. selling ores valued at 1 mil = 10% tax..

ill let the math wizards figure that number out

[mossy geyser]

I think something definitely needs to happen. If you just look at gemstone prices over the last few days they have increased by 50-100% for some of them

[sharp flax]

That might be players buying them out for crafting leveling.

[sharp flax]

Then players would trade directly and avoid the market place for sells over 1mil.

[mossy geyser]

Possibly but much riskier to trade directly and also a lot harder. Not as easy and just buying one off the market

[sharp flax]

https://discord.com/channels/926047380263030804/1094347680714596503 & https://discord.com/channels/926047380263030804/1095303146068258908 - players already do it without taxes, if taxes are too high there would be more player using it.

[flint hatch]

Honestly if there was a 25% tax under any situation I’d just stop playing the game these numbers are wild. Most RuneScape like games only introduce a 1-2% tax. If economy is the pure focus anything higher than 5 will just flat kill the auction house making the game seem completely dead and making prices much more subjective