VTOL/STOVL Light Attack/Multirole for BDF - Compass-analogue

[tiny tulip]

with the Compass being confirmed as a PALA aircraft, BDF is somewhat lacking in cheap quick-response aircraft. to some extent the cricket is this, but it's also slow and nearly defenceless against enemy aircraft, so a proper compass-analogue for BDF would be nice, and i think something comparable to a Harrier would be a good sorta thing to aim for

in BDF fashion and to operate off the annex (and/or potentially off a BDF dynamo-equivalent), it should be VTOL-capable (probably either harrier-style vectored nozzles or XFV-12-style thrust-augmented wings), though possibly with heavier loadouts restricted to STOVL or conventional takeoff. speed range would be mid-high subsonic.

it'd be a bit costlier than a compass (price point ~30mil) largely due to the extra versatility offered by the VTOL system, with comparable payload and possibly a bit more/better countermeasures, as well as an internal 20mm HE gun with less fire rate and ammo than that of the vortex or revoker (or possibly a 12.7mm gun or 2 instead). importantly, it should be able to carry roughly equivalent AGM-48 loads as the compass to allow for similar convoy-busting

in terms of appearance and configuration, i think it could be good as a single-engine aircraft, with a ~50-60kn class engine for similar TWR as the compass, and either afterburning, water injection, or something similar to provide the thrust for VTOLing. an F/A-18-esque mostly-straight wing with a large LERX could be a cool aesthetic, providing good low-speed authority to help with maneuvering and managing the transition to engine lift flight, though a canarded configuration could also be neat. intake air could be provided by an under-mounted DSI or airscoop (j-10 or f-16 style), while additional vents on the fuselage top or wings could provide more air for takeoff or hover (keeping foreign objects or ocean spray out of the engines

overall i think an aircraft like this would suit the game pretty well and be a good addition to the roster

[gaunt nimbus]

So... a Vortex?

[tiny tulip]

more a VTOL compass, not stealthy or supersonic like the vortex, also lacking a radar

[prisma dome]

4th gen harrier?

[tiny tulip]

harrier was my primary inspiration yeah, a 4th or 4.5th gen analogue of it would, i think, make a good BDF compass-equivalent light attack/multirole

[scarlet mural]

You should rename topic as cheap compass analogue for BDF

And yes. I like this idea. We really need cheap multi-role jet for BDF. 18-28 mil should be good

[tiny tulip]

VTOL/STOVL Light Attack/Multirole for BDF - Compass-analogue

[west cargo]

The super hornet comes to mind, it isn't vtol but it does fit most of the last paragraph's description.

[candid laurel]

NO turns into VTOL notVR

[hard sail]

pala currently needs something between ifrit and compass, bdf can make do with vortex and revoker

[keen pilot]

There has been an inordinate amount of criticism for this idea, but it does make a lot of sense imo. A Harrier II analogue thing would have a cost in your price range. It would also have the ability to operate from the Annex class carrier. To deviate from your idea, I think this plane should have a slight shift towards attack, having a slightly higher focus on A-G ordnance, something the BDF lacks (cricket is way slow, it doesn't count).

[hard sail]

vortex could probably get more plentiful external mounts, it's anemic thrust output would still keep it from being too strong

[reef parrot]

bdf yak-141

[leaden nacelle]

So, uh, apparently this existed. How about this but a futuristic version that doesnt suck? A fairly regular aircraft with an extra jet engine blowing down. Could be a fun challenge to fly.

Basically, a downgraded Vortex, but maybe bigger with more wing area.

[earnest topaz]

I am once again pitching the humble HSVTOL as a better approach than any of these.

https://www.bellflight.com/experience/innovation/hsvtol

No need for dedicated lifting engines, superior hover control and it just looks less....derpy

The flight control is also basically halfway figured out. Just need to add the prop/jet transition once you hit say 270-300 knots

[candid laurel]

First of all BDF needs better fighter for rank 4

[coarse elbow]

Dual Tiltjet or Tiltrotor is way better and more practical for an Assault Carrier. this is such a rehashed idea lmao

[gaunt nimbus]

Vortex is already so good why does it need a better rank 4?

[mild canyon]

tiltjets are 100% not the move, they suck

[misty bane]

There needs to be more options in general between "trainer jet that was repurpdosed for combat" and "cutting edge next gen air superiority fighter"

[gaunt nimbus]

theres the Revoker, a Gen 4++ upgraded strike fighter

[tiny tulip]

the existence of this idea doesn't preclude a mid-range pala fighter, and i do actually have some ideas for that

[west cargo]

It's like a grippen with some stealth aspects, it's a good aircraft but there needs to be something more conventional to make the inconventional planes stand out more.

[gaunt nimbus]

Thats because it is a stealth gripen

[west cargo]

yes i know, that's why i said it in the first place

[tiny tulip]

i did consider lift jets, but they seem to kinda just be an impractical idea when you've got technology that's even just modern, let alone 2070s

[tiny tulip]

i would be somewhat wary of shifting it too far towards ground-attack, as that could mean BDF has an early-game disadvantage in air-to-air vs the PALA's compass until they can start fielding revokers, but it could be a good call as long as it can at least somewhat manage air-to-air

[west cargo]

maybe the aircraft has a ridiculously short take off speed, kinda like the vortex

[tiny tulip]

that is what STOVL is

it would also be neat if it could (with light loadouts at least) operate off usually-heli-only things such as a Dynamo or BDF analogue for it (i feel like the dynamo's more likely to be PALA, not sure why)

[keen pilot]

The shift would be slight, meaning that it would still have a gun and plenty of options for AA missiles, but there would be more plentiful and heavier loadouts for AG ordnance. For example: A full loadout of MMR-S3s would consist of 8 (6 on the wings, 2 in the bay compared to the Compass's 10 total), while a full loadout of PAB-250s could be 12 (10 on the wings, 2 in the bay). This plane would definitely still be able to dogfight, but is more useful in a ground attack role, comparative to the compass.

[mild canyon]

Honestly, the Harrier is the perfect jet for this. Subsonic top speed with worse agility than a Compass (excluding VIFFing shenanigans), and less total missiles- but it has an onboard radar and the ability to carry 4 ARHs with 2 outboard heatseekers.

This could comfortably sit at twice the price point of a Compass, a full 40 mil (ish) and still occupy the niche of low-en, carrier capable, subsonic light fighter/attacker that BDF needs to be competitive

That said it should (obviously) not be exactly a 1:1 to an IRL harrier, but the thrust vectoring system is already ingame on the Medusa. It makes sense to reduce the dev time to reuse it for this jet, and there's a wealth of 60's era concept art that could be used for a design that asethetically embraces borderline-outdated aesthetics (like the Compass)

[west cargo]

how does this one exactly work though, or at least the name of the aircraft

[topaz dust]

i don't think this is exactly the game to embrace borderline outdated aesthetics

[west cargo]

I don't think the cricket looks that futuristic to me

[keen pilot]

The only gripe I have with this is the price. Sure, in this time frame, any concepts harrier-like would be stealthier than the harrier itself is, with added tech to boot, but I think the price should be brought down to about 28-33 mil, to more accurately reflect the price of this type of plane and to ensure that it's still a viable option once revokers start being fielded, since the proposed price point is quite similar to that of the revoker.

[topaz dust]

look at it again, if you hide the prop it looks as futuristic as ever

almost like a space ship, like a fighter from Freelancer

[west cargo]

It still reminds me of a bronco, that airplane is old as hell too

[solid mesa]

its a dollar store bronce

[west cargo]

You could polish the harrier a bit with some minor changes, and it can be easily look more futuristic

[topaz dust]

the bronco is the dollar store bronco

[solid mesa]

nah bronco unironically better than cricket, ill explain

[west cargo]

You could say the same about the revoker, it looks something straight out of the cold war with some stealth coverings

[topaz dust]

just saying everyone posting 1970s F-4 Phantom-esque planes in the suggestions forum is barking up the wrong tree

[west cargo]

I mean not everything in NO has to be like some super stealth concept that never was beacuse it got outperformed by something else.

If all of the catalogue of NO is all but Stealth planes except the cricket, compass and tatantula, it takes a lot of the appeal of stealth planes being these ultimate flying weapons and instead turns it into an average encounter

[topaz dust]

i don't disagree, but there's a 3rd place. the FS-12 is sleek but in terms of stealth it's like you said, aerodynamic, not stealthy at all, but the FS-12 represents a late 90s early 2000s type eurofighter/gripen plane, not cold war

[west cargo]

If people are posting about concepts that go back into the 60's is beacuse of what's been disclosed to the public, since stealth is such a sensitive concept there's not much that can be known of what will future weapons of war will be or do

[west cargo]

just beacuse it has cannards it doesn't automatically remind me of the eurofighter at all.

[topaz dust]

i think the artist literally did liken it to the gripen. regardless, around the turn of the century a whole bunch of sleek canard aircraft started popping up everywhere and it's a vastly different style from early supersonics

[west cargo]

the aircraft are suggested, but that doesn't mean there can't be changes to the design that fit more the modern era

also keep in mind that while the harrier was developed in the early 70's it got upgraded as the years passed, it literally is called the harrier II due to how extensive the modifications were and they were stopped being manufactured by 1997, it's pretty new if you ask me

It can be said the same for most aircraft operating today, that their designs came from the late 60's or early 70's and have stayed up in the air most of the time because of their upgrades and how their desings have exceled their roles. if even something like the F15EX can even exist in this world along with the f35's and F22's then what's the reason besides asthethics that something similar cannot exist in NO

[mild canyon]

-compass
-cricket
-Revoker

Are all by definition out dated aircraft.

[topaz dust]

yeah but they're definitely a far cry from early supersonics and the crack cocaine inspired prototype art of the 1970s

[mild canyon]

The suggestion is for essentially an inferior Vortex at a much cheaper price point, it’s not going to be an advanced airframe within the greater context of NO

[fickle egret]

why is everything vtol

[mild canyon]

I think the idea is to give BDF a proper Compass competitor, which means it needs to operate off of the Annex, which means STOVL

[fickle egret]

this game feels like it has more vtols than conventional aircraft

vortex, Medusa, tarantula are plenty imo

also the revoker doesn't have carrier capabilities, idk what faction the revoker is though

[mild canyon]

Revoker is BDF, it’s not a naval fighter

[fickle egret]

or at least not every new aircraft should be a vtol. I get it's cool but I feel like people just throw it in for the cool factor without thinking if it actually adds anything useful to the aircraft.

rant over sorry for that

[tiny tulip]

fair, and reasonable

[west cargo]

i mean i woulnd't mind this harrier this one is cool at least, but i would like to see more conventional aricraft even if something like that makes this chat go in an alergic reaction

[fickle egret]

the annex class could probably host compass style aircraft if it had wires

[west cargo]

this is one of the few times in wich a previous vtol aircraft could make a reference point for the vortex to feel more acomplishing to obtain, The vortex is going to be faster and better in most things than whatever this aircraft is going to be

[tiny tulip]

much like the compass and ifrit

[west cargo]

exactly

[fickle egret]

could the new helo maybe fill that gap?

[west cargo]

the new helo fills it's purpose as search and rescue along with supplies transpport

[fickle egret]

price it around 30mil and give it some fox 3's maybe

[west cargo]

it's still as vulnerable as a chicane

[fickle egret]

if it has a radar jammer that would already help massively but at the end of the day it's still a rotary wing

[west cargo]

it's still a helicopter, pretty easy picking for most aircraft, even a compass

[mild canyon]

I mean you could land them (and hypothetically take off) but LHDs/LHA's simply aren't designed for that sort of operation. You don't want to shut down the entire deck to recover a single jet- the advantage of the Harrier and F-35B IRL is you can launch em and recover them while continuing deck operations

[tiny tulip]

a: it's for PALA, while this is BDF
b: to be useful over the chicane and cricket this thing needs to be reasonably fast and have a jammer

[tiny tulip]

oh trust me i did think about it, i was brainstorming some ways to have it STOL without needing VTOL, but i did eventually just settle on the idea of VTOL. we have had a lot of that lately between the tarant and vortex, but it is there for usefulness and not just for the cool

[west cargo]

if anthing there should be more rank two and three planes, it's quite jarring to see a huge gap between a compass and a revoker filled with heli's, besides the confirmed CAS aircraft there should be really something resembling more a normal fighter that isn't small like the compass and is able to use radar, it would make it unique compared everything else

[tiny tulip]

i do have an idea for a PALA revoker-analogue that i'll probably post soon

[mild canyon]

I'd search the forums, there's been a couple (and they're all pretty solid)

[west cargo]

As far as i'm concerned, there were ideas of using a mig 144 for a PALA counterpart to the revoker being one of the most famous as an example.

[misty bane]

Mine sucks but I appreciate it. 😂

[next steppe]

Just curious, would propfans serve as a good middle ground between jets and rotors for this purpose?

[mild canyon]

I may have been harsh on tiltjets- they definitely work for fighters but even then they're clunky, they're prone to mechanical failure, and they don't offer advantages over other technology AFAIK

I'd imagine any Compass competitor would need similar or greater speed, so I'm not sure propfans could do that compared to a subsonic jet aircraft

[tiny tulip]

propfans should be capable of some pretty high subsonic speeds, i think they could keep up with a compass. i do think they would vibes-wise fit better on a proper attack aircraft though, if BDF gets the chicane maybe the PALA analogue of that could be something using propfans as a sorta a-10 equivalent, or better a mini AC-130

[earnest topaz]

Alternatively, chicane goes to PALA and you have a smaller tiltrotor that kind of bridges the roles of compass and the PALA coax heli. This fits the BDF identity of versatile airframes with short field capability backed up by "linebackers"

Which would also be a great place to do something like a BDF dorito fighter that flies like a medusa with a rocket strapped to its ass and carries like 8-10 scimitars internally

The HSVTOL's ability to fold its rotors and transition to jet power for higher speed flight fits the compass side, while its propeller and rotor modes let it fill the role of the two helicopters

[tiny tulip]

a HSVTOL somewhat like this could be interesting, yeah. the multirole utility would be suiting of BDF, and although the VTOL system would technically be the same as the tarant, the addition of the folding blades would be a nice difference

[prisma dome]

revoker size vtol with this scheme and bigger loadouts but with bad agility

[keen pilot]

The Vortex already has less than ideal agility, meaning that if this were added, no plane on the Annex could ever hold its own in a gunfight

[scarlet mural]

Looks like one of good variants

[chilly dust]

definitely not this, the additional standalone engines are completely dead weight anytime beside TO/L and significantly limits the loadout. This is why the russian VTOL / STVOL designs were never successful, the trick is to power all the stuff only with engines that are 100% useable for both directions.

Like... don't get me wrong, the ruskies had the awesome idea of the tilting main jet nozzle that has then been adopted on F-35B, but they still failed to remove the front standalone engines which was the crucial step to make the aircraft combat effective, as the front engines and all their logistical structure just adds 'a loadout worth' of weight.

[chilly dust]

Also, the sidejets would probably make the aircraft subsonic, removing one of the key features of revoker-class of light fighter.

[true citrus]

ough not this exact thread again
they should have never take down the old suggestions forum, every single thing that was done to death over there is just copied here now
sure put a harrier in the game, why not, unmedusa the medusa if you wish

[west cargo]

Is it me or the HSVTOL sounds like a more expensive but faster cricket for the bdf

[west cargo]

https://youtu.be/IwyVuFNec-Y

[devout yarrow]

thats the point, look at the compass
It has almost nothing the cricket doesnt
-# weapons wise*

[west cargo]

What if this harrier ripoff uses the X32's vtol systems, that way nobody cries at the medusas lift system being stolen?

[devout yarrow]

Vortex did that already

Could go the Yak 38 route, 2 nozzels on the back and a fan or thrusters in the middle

[west cargo]

it's quite different from a Vortex if you ask me

[devout yarrow]

oh damn, i always forget its got the extra middle thrusters and no fan

Personally i still want it to have 2 main thrust nozzles but 1 works, maybe the Vortex is a derivative, advanced design built from the same basic design ideas

[west cargo]

I mean it's capabilites do exced that of the cricket's but what i meant is that it looks like a cricket counterpart to me, doesn't seem like it could carry much ordinance anyway

[devout yarrow]

this is already a constant for BDF ngl, all their aircraft just straight up carry less besides the Chicane, obvious exception

i think a larger A2A focus than the Compass would help a lot, idk how else to balance it besides "More of X weapon, less of Y" otherwise, i dont think i want to throw in such thrilling ideas such as more rockets and less bombs

[west cargo]

It does seem quite manuverable but fragile if you compare it to a compass

[devout yarrow]

single engine would definitely do that lol

Maybe its a bit of a flat boi and squeezes 2 in there

[west cargo]

we used to have 4 s1 on each pylon before they got nerfed, besides if that role gets taken for an aircraft similar to it from the bdf, i wouldn't mind it

[west cargo]

for that it would be thin, and that would make it a second revoker when it comes to being touched by a missile or a bullet

[devout yarrow]

I meant more like, more access to ARH missiles and just a couple more S3s to pair with its higher maneuverability

[west cargo]

that would make it as broken as before, wich at that point you would get easy kills on a budget

[devout yarrow]

or just pay the extra 25 mil and get 12 of the damn things lmao

in a much faster airframe with better stealth probably

[mild canyon]

I’m wondering if the solution isn’t just…

…a cheaper Revoker and cheaper Vortex. 40 mil for the Revoker and 60 mil for the Vortex

[west cargo]

Basically a tier 2 aircraft

[devout yarrow]

it obviously isnt, its more like a different compass

Its kinda hard to determine how to change the airframe and still keep it on equal-ish terms

[west cargo]

I mean the harrier ripoff seems to sacrifice speed a bit of ordinance for vtol, meanwhile the HSVTOL aircraft is like a lighter and faster cricket with fewer ordinance that seems quite vulerable, i'd say these two are more risk for reward aircraft while the cricket and compass seem like more options you would pick for being able to survive at the cost of speed.

of course that doesn't mean that each of these will replace each other, given how they have their own purpose with the same goal and how both factions share aircraft to some degree as far as the game lore comes. i think they could be fine aditions to add more variety to the game

[devout yarrow]

lighter is definitely a term i would not use to describe something that is VTOL lol

idk what you mean by "These two"

this suggestion pretty clearly favors the idea being the BDF equal to the Compass, which suggests similar size and capabilities as it with a couple twists, namely the VTOL/STOVL
I mean it says it right here

[west cargo]

I meant that for the HSVTOL

[west cargo]

i mean these are two different aircraft for the same proposal, but i belive the harrier ripoff seems to fit more he compass analouge role more than the HSVTOL

[devout yarrow]

the Vortex? idk what you mean

nvm i made a quick search and, yeah this doesnt work i dont think lol

[west cargo]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1384414461145911406/1384786073393037333/message-editor2F1631220923844-tacticaltiltrotor10001.png?ex=6853b207&is=68526087&hm=2a09beb4171efddf53296545f6fa7acf57ceeaf72d62eda351133edb40241f9b&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=819&height=585

[devout yarrow]

if we were talking about funky Tara alternatives or something, fine, but like, a compass alternative? Way too big and way too expensive i bet

its one of those do-all designs that, if done effectively, kinda works too well to be analogous to anything except itself, and therefore lacks a clear place in the game balance. Thats just imo though, I would be fine seeing people take a more extensive look into it

[west cargo]

That's why having a harrier looking plane with the thrusting system the X32 has, wich is really similar to the harrier already would be a better candidate for a BDF compass

[devout yarrow]

yeah agreed lmao, that harrier-vortex whatever tf would be pretty nice as having a radar and such, early game A2A to counter the Ifrit rushers

[west cargo]

https://youtu.be/6Wp61al3Alk

[mild canyon]

A hypothetical harrier would have worse flight performance than the Compass, but better armament (and radar), which would justify it being slightly more expensive IMO, and it's balanced operating from the weaker carrier

...that said, it's still potentially not worth it, and it may be more viable to simply reduce the cost of the Vortex (and Revoker) to better accurately reflect it's price point. Mitch wants naval asymmetry, so I'm not sure BDF should have a true Compass competitor (especially if they get a CAS jet, which would have Compass level performance but be land based).

I'd be very interested to see how BDF teams would perform with the Revoker dropping to Rank 2 and 50 mil, and the Vortex staying at Rank 3 but dropping to 75 mil (instead of 90 mil)

[devout yarrow]

i think a real CAS plane should get objectively better A2G stuff tho

Compass gets carrier compatibility (so extra spawns), ARHs (Early snipes), and a lot of AGMs on its own and is still very close to supersonic

[mild canyon]

Oh a CAS jet would 100% have a better payload than the Compass, at the price of agility and worse A2A payload

conceptually, think A-10, Su-25, etc

[devout yarrow]

yeah, the compass is also on its own pretty stealthy and damn tanky too

I think we can be more interesting than just a frogfoot with A10 wings lol

[west cargo]

🐴

[devout yarrow]

why even use jets, use some crazy ass props, like, 2 contrarotating engines

[mild canyon]

jet engines offer more thrust, less RCS, better high end performance, etc off the top of my head

[west cargo]

i guess that would be cool, but it would make it really loud too

[devout yarrow]

Good, let them know its coming.

But yeah ig just using bigass turbofans works

[west cargo]

Hope it can take a few hits like the tara does, but it seems like it would suck at dogfighting against anything with an afterburner

[devout yarrow]

I think thats the idea, play a little sneakier and obliterate convoys
Maybe its got big bit stealthy wings and a big internal bay, since detection might be immediate death

[west cargo]

wouldn't that make it more expensive than it should?

[devout yarrow]

I mean maybe, but i bet you could get away with it

[misty bane]

One option, in addition to the Vortex/Revoker price drop, would be to make the Chicane BDF and not spawnable on the Hyperion.

Is the Chicane already confirmed BDF?

[west cargo]

yes

[misty bane]

What I think would be interesting would be each faction getting a rank 0 scout/light attack helicopter, PALA's getting their COAX, then BDF gets the Chicane. I feel like that provides pretty good Naval parity

[mild canyon]

I think drones will fill that gap- rotary drones, fixed wing, STOVL/VTOL drones, etc

[misty bane]

The naval parity gap?

[west cargo]

isn't the compass already carrier capable, i mean not vtol of course, but it should be able to land in most aircaft carriers.

[coarse elbow]

so do 20 million dollar VTOLs

[mild canyon]

the Argentinians would disagree with you, considering the Harrier's performance in the Falklands

nice try, but you're picking on the most successful STOVL jet in history

[coarse elbow]

why arent they ubiquitous then lol

[west cargo]

Beacuse it was expensive to keep them on the air and maintenance was horrible, that also applies to tiltjets.

[coarse elbow]

ok lol, use tiltrotor then like i said

[mild canyon]

they are lol

there were hundreds of AV-8As and hundreds of AV-8Bs produced, operated by the US, UK, Spain, Italy, Thailand, and India

The Harrier has a very impressive and extensive service history and has fought in multiple major wars

[west cargo]

keep in mind that the harriers are still operational even to this day, they are far cheaper than an f35

[coarse elbow]

bro doesnt know the definition of ubiquitous lol 💀

[west cargo]

not everyone can afford to use them, and also beacuse they have stopped manufacturing them ever since 1997, the countries listed are first world countries except india of course

[coarse elbow]

why do you think they've stopped manufacturing them? 🤔

[mild canyon]

because the F-35B is straight up better and is it's successor, this isn't hard

[coarse elbow]

whats hard is your thick skull because you dont understand or acknowledge how poor of a development that airframe has had, how overbudget it is, and that only 1 variant is VTOL lol. talk about bad faith argumentation lmfao

compounded by a lack of understanding in the english language

[mild canyon]

the Harrier family of jets have served for over 50 years, they're pretty much Compass-tier in how they would be viewed in Nuclear Option. An older generation of jet pressed into service as a light fighter/attacker to fill a capability gap

Not sure why you claimed 20 mil VTOLs suck then shifted the goalposts to throw poop at the F-35 (which is hilarious given that it was the tip of the spear in defanging the entire Iranian air defense network) but given your past history harassing users I'm not surprised you'd move the goal posts and attack me personally

[coarse elbow]

lol your position is invalid and ur coping lmao

[west cargo]

It was expensive to produce them back then, this proposal is already an outdated aircraft by the time of NO, even the cricket, compass and revoker are old and could qualify for museum pieces as well and they are producing them in mass too, I bet this aircraft can be quite cheap to produce since all the inconveniences that went into developing are ironed out by the time it reaches service yet again.

[mild canyon]

I wouldn't even engage, he's clearly baiting

[west cargo]

even the f35 spent two ENTIRE DECADES BEING PRODUCED

[coarse elbow]

if VTOL jets were really that easy to service and manufacture, you wouldn't need the largest procurement project on the planet behind development of a single airframe with multiple variants lol. even the bought and sold media acknowledge how much of a failure the F-35 has been up until now lol

[fading scaffold]

I was thinking what the plane described in this suggestion could use is a solution to be able to fly slow for CAS but at the same time being able to fly supersonic in a whim. Maybe something like adaptable wings? If you could move the wings you would be able to reduce the sweep at low speed and get a more efficient wing...

[mild canyon]

I find F-35 slander to be absolutely hilarious given that in the last week or so, it proved to be the most significant force multiplier for the Israeli airforce and allowed them to completely destroy the extensive Iranian air defense network to the point where they can fly drones over Tehran uncontested

There is literally no better proof that the F-35 is hyper lethal than that, it's an absolutely insane performance for a stealth fighter

[coarse elbow]

the bottom line comes to the fact that even if this proposal was fully realized it wouldn't cost anything close to a compass and it wouldnt be an equivalent airframe in the slightest

[true citrus]

thank god it would tho

[west cargo]

control systems for tiltrotors have just barely been figured out by the time it took the f35 to develop and be deployed somewhere along the middle east

[coarse elbow]

the tarantula would like a word

[mild canyon]

A Textron Scorpion costs 20 mil, has no radar/ARH missiles, and cruises at 450kts
A AV-8B II costs 20-30 mil, has an F/A-18C's radar, can carry 4 AIM-120s + 2 Sidewinders, and cruises at 585kts

The Harrier would 100% be superior when translated to NO, given that it would have similar performance buffs compared to it's IRL counterpart like how the Compass overperforms compared to the Scorpion

Compass might out rate it, but that depends entirely on how Mitch adds a Harrier-like jet to NO

[coarse elbow]

like the game is set in 2070 lol, unless idiocracy happened, im sure they figured out how take make rotary wings tilt forward and backwards lmao

[west cargo]

I know the tarantula exists, but have you considered how ridiculous it is to use jets inside props for just taking off, even then i don't think that plane would be as robust as an actual compass at least, this idea sounds more like a 60's proposal for a vtol aircraft

[coarse elbow]

bro im picturing a Warbird from COD lol what jets are you on about

[flat plinth]

oh boy

[mild canyon]

oh lord now that is a bad design lmfao

[west cargo]

my bad then, but that thing just looks perfect to hit with a missile, yummy

[rich burrow]

The suggestions Forum situation is crazy

[coarse elbow]

well if that were a reason for an airframe not to exist go ahead and start the suggestion on removing the chicane and tarantula

[flat plinth]

im messaging MorePegasus to get on the case

[mild canyon]

unironic Call of Duty suggestion, that's it, pack it up lmfao

[coarse elbow]

lmao strawman more because your arguments suck and you have no ground to stand on

[west cargo]

the chicane is a conventional stealth helicopter, the tarantula seems more conventional as a transport heli, and you are suggesting this thing that would work better as amod for nuclear option than an actual old vtol aircraft that used to rule vtol capabilites until the F35 came along

[harsh coyote]

You may disagree with the suggestion, but if things devolve into personal attacks it becomes less constructive.

[next steppe]

And this would fill in a gap that exists in the bdf arsenal by ________

There’s no way that thing can go fast enough to compare to the compass in speed, not to mention payload, I don’t see many places to put hardpoints for missiles and bombs

That could never be a reasonable compass analogue

[mild canyon]

a Harrier is faster than a Textron Scorpion, FYI
Edit: oops, I'm blind

[west cargo]

he's talking about the heli, not the harrier bootleg

[west cargo]

it looks more like a person transporter from avatar, wich isn't bad, but given how the upcoming heli is for that, it would be somewhat lower budget version of it

[coarse elbow]

lmao you're right, that single example i used of a dual tiltrotor rotary wing aircraft is the only design that will exist ever. those problems that you identify are clearly impossible fixes

[next steppe]

You’re right about it being a (maybe) reasonable logistics/transport tiltrotor thingy but that’s not what the thread is

[west cargo]

these are what i found that match that description, there is reason why this configuration isn't used as an attack aircraft.

[next steppe]

I don’t see any way of getting lift other than the rotors, how does a rotor at a 45 degree angle at most complete in terms of speed with a jet aircraft

[coarse elbow]

why are you only using real life production aircraft lol. you're playing a video game with made up airframes

[next steppe]

Dude it’s a sim lite, it’s supposed to be quasi-realistic

[mild canyon]

On top of that every ingame aircraft is based on IRL designs, often a combination of multiple very real prototypes and production aircraft

Call of Duty concepts won't cut it

[coarse elbow]

lmao so it has to be real to get added, thats the bar we're setting, tarantula should get removed, chicane should get removed by that logic then lol

[next steppe]

Realistic yeah, that’s the bar Mitch set

[west cargo]

the compass exists as the textron, the vortex is a X 32 if it was better, the tarantule's concept existed since the cold war and the irfrit is a merge bewtween the YF23 with an SU 57, the only aircraft that seems most fictional out of all of them is the medusa

[mild canyon]

Tarantula is based off of Boeings quad tiltrotor concept and the Chicane is clearly based off of the RAH-66 Comanche

[coarse elbow]

there is no such thing as a quadrotor tiltwing aircraft capable of carrying 20 tons lol, and you literally say concepts dont count lmfao

[next steppe]

There was a concept for a goofy VTOL gunship thing that looks like your COD plane - it was scrapped for not being realistic enough

[coarse elbow]

guys, scifi stays scifi forever, dont forget

there has never been a real life example of something which was first conceived in science fiction becoming reality. that just doesnt happen as you clearly showcase

[next steppe]

Yes there is lmfao the Boeing QuadTiltrotor, a concept of a V-22 with 4 rotors, was planned to carry around the cargo of a C-130 - which is around 20 tons

[mild canyon]

Man, you could learn something if you just Google'd it

Here, have a read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_Quad_TiltRotor#Joint_Heavy_Lift_studies

[coarse elbow]

lmfao you cant read lol, "possible variants" these things dont exist lmfao what are you smoking. the ragebait used to be believable

[next steppe]

I think real things in real life are fair game, none of us ever said otherwise - concepts from sci-fi movies are a completely different beast

[west cargo]

it would be cool to have it, but this isn't the role for it, we are talking about a vtol aircraft proposal not a helicopter with a configuration that it's most practical use has been for cargo.

[next steppe]

We’re talking about a Compass type aircraft for the BDF here

[coarse elbow]

lol truly empty heads cant retain the fact that theres no such airframe which is cheaper than a vortex, still vtol, and equivalent to a compass. thats the definition of fantasy lmfao

[mild canyon]

Especially when millions of dollars are poured into full blown studies, wind tunnel prototyping, and official plans submitted to the US Army.

[next steppe]

THE HARRIER, the HARRIER

[west cargo]

if you want to propose it, fine, just do your suggestion at this point for a rank 0 tiltrotor attack heli, it's not that hard to not bring salt to the table

[coarse elbow]

my suggestion got poopood by the same ones contributing to this suggestion lol, it wasnt even calling for the same kind of airframe lmfao, you dont even know the requirements

[mild canyon]

The Harrier literally fits that description to a T. Cheaper than the Vortex, still STOVL, and more capable than a Compass. Why are you so stubborn about this? Do I need to link the official US Navy procurement studies again, or the production tables, or the combat history, or the public technical specifications, or what?

[west cargo]

yeah, beacuse it doesn't fill the requirements given on the suggestion in the first place

[next steppe]

https://tenor.com/view/god-i-love-trampoling-av-8-gif-6897117726225947782

[mild canyon]

You mean your old suggestion to have the Compass operate off the Annex, or the suggestion of a fixed wing BDF trainer operating off the Compass, both of which were explicitly shot down by Mitch when he stated fixed wings can't and won't operate off the Annex without STOVL/VTOL?

[coarse elbow]

pull it up, idk what you're referring to, must be on something

[mild canyon]

I continue to be amazed that you picked this hill, of all hills, to die on, it's very strange

[coarse elbow]

all i know is you think VTOL jets can cost as much a traditional jet powered trainer lol. thats actual ace combat logic lol

[next steppe]

Look up the cost of the Harrier

[coarse elbow]

literally first result shows a 20 million dollar minimum discrepancy between the 2 kinds of airframes LMFAO. thats a demilitarized museum piece LMAO

the trolls arent sending their best 😂

[next steppe]

Yeah the museum piece harrier is actually irrelevant, but they did cost around the price of a compass when they were still under production

[coarse elbow]

lol even if you had a streamlined procurement path, they would always inherently cost more to manufacture and service compared to traditional airframes, there is no refuting this lmao

[warm lagoon]

https://secure.boeingimages.com/archive/Bell-Boeing-Quad-Tiltrotor-in-the-Field-2F3XC5JD5TZ.html

[coarse elbow]

wikipedia lol, its over, thats all considerations and wishful thinking lmao, it has literally no weight

[west cargo]

your heli seems more costly than your average compass tbh.

[topaz dust]

that is a CG marketing image

[mild canyon]

I mean the Boeing Quad Tiltrotor was never built so IDK what images you'd want of it, it was just studied and designed

[next steppe]

.mil

[coarse elbow]

its not meant to be a compass equivalent lmao those things dont belong on assault carriers like your cohort previously established. Im repeatedly making my position clear that Tiltrotors would be better in place of a VTOL Jet lol

[west cargo]

then why are you even proposing it here in the first place

[warm lagoon]

This is a Bell/Boeing product development that was made available to DoD as a possible option for tactical airlift.

[next steppe]

Then why are you suggesting this in the post for a compass equivalent?

[mild canyon]

The BDF would have logically purchased the Harrier generations ago (similar to how the Compass and Revoker are explicitly old designs still in use) so a 20-30 mil cost range is 100% relevant

[coarse elbow]

because a compass + vtol + CAS + 20m price tag is the definition of delusion lol

[topaz dust]

i know, just making sure

[mild canyon]

Are you for real? The Harrier was intended to operate off of LHDs from the get go. They've operated off of helicopter carriers for longer than you've been alive.

[next steppe]

It starts with the letter H, saying it’s 10m more expensive at most is just splitting hairs

[coarse elbow]

guys in 50 years, there was literally zero inflation did you know. and the fact that you cant even see the originating point is so funny, when did i says harriers dont belong on LHDs lmao, i said compass doesnt belong on assault carrier if you cared to read properly which you show you cant lmao

[mild canyon]

BDF wouldn't be buying the Harrier in 2070, that's what the Vortex exists for. The Harrier would be an old legacy platform- like the Compass- that would have been purchased on the cheap and is now being used for low intensity conflicts where the Vortex wouldn't make sense to operate, economically

[warm lagoon]

"how much of a failure the F-35 has been up until now"

incorrect

[coarse elbow]

no literally correct lol. massive cost overrun, development delays, maintenance and availability issues

[west cargo]

sound like a you problem, you don't seem to want to engage in actually giving constructive critiscism and instead suggest an aircraft that does not fill this role

[warm lagoon]

Oh you actually don't understand the aircraft or its procurement process.

Then you're accusing someone else of being bad faith.

Weird.

[sinful rover]

:dynoSuccess: livingrentfreeinyourhead was muted.

[mild canyon]

On top of the personal attacks and homophobia to boot. Really showing their true colors yet again.

[west cargo]

have you considered that the harrier has been doing that role while the f 35 was being developed, and it's expected to do some more service before the F35 takes over the mantle

[stuck cove]

As long as it isn’t wildly unreasonable, I personally am fine leaving aircraft cost as purely a game balance decision rather than a realism discussion. We already have a stealth bomber that’s less than a third the cost of its real-life equivalents, because much more expensive and nobody would ever even consider buying a Darkreach.

Even if a Harrier equivalent would logically be $45 million, does putting it at $30 million inherently ruin the game?

[devout yarrow]

Damn did I missed watching the mods dog on this dude? Surely they did?

[harsh coyote]

Be kind 🙂

[devout yarrow]

Oh of course, keeping myself restrained as always

Solution does indeed look to be a Harrier lol

[mild canyon]

Specifically for inspiration for an Annex-based subsonic fighter/attacker, yeah

Yak-38 could also work but man that thing was uhhhhhhhhh not great

[devout yarrow]

By 2070 standards it may be expensive for 50 years prior, but now they're slapping that tech onto 5th gens with afterburners and defensive lasers and stuff. STOVL engine Maintenance is clearly a solved problem for BDF

Also like, 25 mil on the upper end for a harrier is crazy cheap, a superhornet is like three or four times that

[misty bane]

Suggesting F15/A10/F14: 😕🙄😒😂🤡🤦🏻‍♂️

Suggesting a Harrier, apparently:

https://tenor.com/view/alcohol-fight-bar-barfight-brawl-gif-11164312

[west cargo]

given how they are experimented enough to make the vortex, a stepping stone for that technology would make sense in the story, although it could use some somehwat modern control system like the X32's vtol as i mentioned before https://youtu.be/rb-OEyOtb2Q

[devout yarrow]

Yeah a legacy vtol that's still supported by the logistics chain and can handily serve as a low cost STOVL trainer, and a STOVL attack jet for the carriers

[mild canyon]

I mean I highly doubt it will be an actual Harrier, I think the idea is something somewhat similar in capabilities

[devout yarrow]

Oh obviously, would be kinda gross if we just straight up got a harrier rip from irl

[misty bane]

I know, was just commenting on how off the rails this one went

[devout yarrow]

Yeah lol, the ine aircraft that actually makes a ton of sense for BDFs STOVL tendencies

People who hate the F35 and Harrier for being expensive for their times dont understand that new tech and integrating hundreds of advanced cutting edge systems will have inherently very unpredictable and very expensive procurement

[misty bane]

No it's clearly because stealth sucks (/s)

[devout yarrow]

Yeah noone would ever be able to produce hundreds of 5th gen stealthy vtol aircraft, absolutely inconceivable, each plane would cost triple that of a super hornet and the maintenance would be f111 levels of crazy

[west cargo]

it should take some liberties if that's the case, like as i mentioned before, the configuration of the engine and the design itself is still up for debate, if for example we were to use what i proposed then the configuration could make the intake go from the sides or at the top of the aircraft or it could be like the shinden 2 having both as an extreme, i'd imagine the cockpit would be similar to the cricket in space, but the aircraft being similar wouldn't be bad.

[tiny tulip]

man this little suggestion was a bit more divisive than i expected lol

[west cargo]

It was fine until one person tried to shoehorn their own solution to the problem without noticing that it was impractical and didn't match the proposition in the first place

[devout yarrow]

Only because of ragebaiting

[devout yarrow]

Im ngl i like the 2 seat TAV harrier

[west cargo]

It's a bit too big, but it could work as long as that gap gets smoothed out

[devout yarrow]

Yeah

[keen pilot]

Forward swept-wing harrier knockoff would go so crazy tho

[west cargo]

the shinden 2 does remind me of the harrier a lot, so i guess you have a point

[keen pilot]

Not sure what the asymmetrical canard is there for tho

[tiny tulip]

there is a canard on the other side it's just harder to see because of reflections. a little up from where you've got the lines

[west cargo]

I'm pretty sure that's a screenshot of the airplane in the game, so i wouldn't be suprised, also the way the bump for the intake is reminding me about the harrier even more even if the config of the second pic is weird

[tiny tulip]

an intake configuration i would like to see (and noted in the initial suggestion) is a chin-mounted intake more comparable to the F16 or J10, with a top-mounted vent to provide low-speed/vtol air sorta like how the mig-29 has those top vents to keep debris out of the main intakes

[keen pilot]

Dayum that looks good. 6 pylons for good carrying capacity (albeit through high wing loading), small and nimble frame for higher TWR, and forward swept wings which allows for enhanced maneuverability and increased AOA tolerance and control.

I think I could get behind this...

[harsh coyote]

Shinden II my beloved 😍

[keen pilot]

Mods like it

We may have a chance

[tiny tulip]

it's got weird variable geometry on the wingtips and tail, plus also has a sorta lightning-like stacked engine configuration

[harsh coyote]

It does have some very strange elements to it for sure

[true citrus]

it flaps its wings to take off vertically 👍

[devout yarrow]

i kinda hate it im ngl

[tiny tulip]

it's definitely a very ace combat design. i actually used it in AC7 pvp for quite a bit and it's pretty solid

[west cargo]

I brought it up as a point of reference If I were to merge the designs of the shinden II and the harrier, I think it could work

[devout yarrow]

yeah it could, hopefully keeping some harrier style wings tho, I dont think forward swept wings are desirable for this

[west cargo]

That, I would keep

[devout yarrow]

Maybe the extra control from the thrusters helps with the extreme low speed instability

[fallow jacinth]

I mean.. nuke option is just brain rot vtol vr in the best way possible

[earnest topaz]

Reasons that are by and large mitigated by the HSVTOL concept. Hence i continue to push it as an overall superior approach despite the frankly odd resistance to anything that isn't a monoplane or bad scifi prop

[tiny tulip]

the HSVTOL would have issues with weapon deployment with rotors forwards, in most configurations i can think of

[mild canyon]

HSVTOL would also have issues with agility compared to a proper STOVL fighter/attack jet I think, I’m not sure it could dogfight with a Compass

[earnest topaz]

Not really: have internal weapons drop from the belly and put external hardpoints forward of the rotors and you'd be fine. Alternatively, when internal ordnance is loaded, do it like rapid dragon where ordnance drops downwards/backwards from where the ramp would be in a utility config or sonobuoy dispensers found on MPAs

[viral fossil]

this but high subsonic

[mild canyon]

Funky, I like it

[viral fossil]

canards so large it might just count as a tandem wing, coupling would go insane

[tiny tulip]

forwards of the rotors would cause some issues of hardpoint limits, wouldn't be much space in most configs. unless you have them somehow as pusher props but that sounds rather impractical

[tiny tulip]

yeah this was one of my possible inspirations (its thrust-augmented wings in particular would be a cool vtol system)

[prisma dome]

this one but stol and with tolerance to 15g but for slots for armament

[warped grove]

https://tenor.com/view/essp-galahad-slumber-party-advanced-warfare-cod-gif-25200193

[viral fossil]

why does it have a tail rotor

[warped grove]

Its never explained, it also has cloaking tech but we don't talk about that. Have the Black ops 2 VTOL gunship, I think it's worse. The warbird is more a twin rotor helicopter than VTOL

I mean for COD, in house helicopter/Vtolwise, the Warbird is probably the best designed out of any near-mid future designs out of them all. They all suck

These all equally suck.

[west cargo]

Isn't that too similar to a revoker?

[viral fossil]

No

[west cargo]

It looks like it but more boxier

[viral fossil]

looks nothing like revoker

[vital temple]

I personally don't feel that the BDF needs an exact role clone of the Compass. A non VTOL trainer which isn't carrier capable could still work fine, while being way cheaper.

We've had Medusa, Tarantula, Vortex, and now the PALA heli in a row. All VTOLS.

Not every new addition needs to be a VTOL.

[west cargo]

i mean this suggestion can appear later to not overwhelm the player with so many vtols, by the time we get something like this the CAS aircaft along with the supersonic bomber might be implemented in the game.

[vital temple]

It's more that a carrier based trainer aircraft isn't particularly common, and most trainer aircraft are not carrier based.

So having both the BDF and PALA trainers be carrier based seems like forcing symmetry.

Sure I'd love a VTOL carrier based ground attacker for BDF more based on the harrier. But I feel that should be seperate to the trainer aircraft role.

[west cargo]

The harrier has a training variant, but it doesn't have to be a trainer exactly like the compass, its more like a previous gen aircraft that was really good for it's era but it's been outclassed by the vortex, only being there beacuse it's cheaper and there's plenty of those units to spare for conflicts that deploying the vortex might be over budget.

[vital temple]

I mean pretty much any aircraft can have a two seater trainer variant. When I say 'trainer' I'm talking about the cheap jet trainers used by most militaries.

Though if we're looking for VTOL methods which havn't been ticked off yet...

[west cargo]

That looks like a tier 2 aircraft to me

[vital temple]

VTOL Mirage isn't real. It can't hurt you.

[languid moon]

After reading through this interesting conversation i had an idea, what about letting the factions have entirely different power curves?

instead of making a cheapish a2g compass analogue, we price it similarly to the revoker and vortex?

Pala would have a the advantage at the early stages with low tier aircraft,
then bdf gets access to its wide mid tier arsenal,
and after a while pala gets the upper hand with high tier aircraft like the ifrit.

[vital temple]

Was more thinking about the method of VTOL, rather than the aircraft itself. That thing was a near mach 2 interceptor. Which is very different to a subsonic ground attacker.

But the actual method of VTOL could be similar.

[vital temple]

Trouble with that is not all game modes allow all tiers. So for example altercation would just end up with PALA wiping BDF every time if you did that.

[languid moon]

fair point. its less of a though out suggestion and more of an idea whispered to me by the voices

[fickle egret]

science and fiction inspire each other all the time. usually someone says "wouldnt it be cool if X existed? here is a story about how that world would look" and then an engineer or scientist goes "i wonder if i could make something like that"

[vital temple]

I absolutely feel that a VTOL carrier based ground attacker would be great for BDF (harrier equivalent).

But I'd want that to be seperate to the low cost trainer aircraft.

[true citrus]

the low cost trainer of bdf is the cricket isnt it

[keen pilot]

Counter Insurgency 22

It doesn't have the speed or the heavy ordnance carrying capacity to even come close to the Compass. Besides which, it doesn't really train pilots well in the use of V/STOL fighters.

[true citrus]

Yeah I didnt argue against any of that, you are right.
I just meant bdf doesnt need another cheaper than compass plane

[devout yarrow]

I think this would lead to PALA having early game steamrolls far more often

[vital temple]

Something exactly half way between Cricket and Revoker in cost would be about $38m

Which is more expensive than the Compass ($22m)

[devout yarrow]

Perhaps it exists in a similar position cost or rank wise to the CAS plane assuming BDF gets it, carrier capable vtol more suited to A2A and strike, while the CAS plane is just an absolute monster at low level convoy smashing

[vital temple]

Though Chicane is also a $35m ground attack aircraft.

[devout yarrow]

Perhaps the CAS plane should remain the more expensive option over the Chicane, and the VTOL would be about Chicane price

I think this balances the stronger strike and air-killing capabilities of the VTOL by rewarding the cheaper, opportunistic, less money-rewarding surgical strikes, while the Chicane and CAS plane would basically guarantee a strong return on investment out of sheer capacity for weapons and being tanky as hell

[vital temple]

Shame we don't know which faction the Chicane and Cricket belong to.

As knowing that would make it a lot easier

[devout yarrow]

Chicane is BDF

[vital temple]

Like if the Cricket is Pala, a super cheap jet trainer (even more so than the compass) would be sensible for BDF.

But if Cricket is BDF, it might be better to have some ~$40m VTOL instead.

[devout yarrow]

New Helo is Pala, overlaps chicane and tara roles but isnt amazing at either

I suspect suddenly that the CAS plane will be PALA, which is a frightening idea because the Ifrit already exists, but that strongly discredits the idea as well because BDF has anemic CAS capabilities barring the tara (A sitting duck for Ifrits) and the Chicane (slow and pretty easy to intercept)

[vital temple]

oh on the ama recently Mitch said only compass, ifrit, taran, revoker, and vortex currently have factions

[devout yarrow]

The Coax is definitely Pala, BDF already has 2 Helos and 2 VTOLs

[vital temple]

Oh that's a good point. New helo being PALA might be a hint that Chicane is BDF. Especially if it has gunship options.

[devout yarrow]

Yeah i think Chicane is very strongly BDF, especially if you look at the missions its in, iirc both Chicane missions are played on the BDF side
And we dont see any PALA chicanes in other missions jm fairly certain

Anyways, if we assume the coax is pala, and cas plane is BDF, that still might leave room for a cheaper A2A focused aircraft to balance out the CAS planes lack of A2A capabilities against the Ifrit and a possible future PALA light fighter and the Compasses strong multirole capabilities
And I mean the Compass is extremely strong in all domains, besides very high altitude fighting

[vital temple]

Not knowing the Cricket faction does complicate things though.

[devout yarrow]

Maybe PALA gets a supersonic tac bomber instead of a light fighter, maybe the Compass is the PALA light fighter

The Cricket could go either way ngl, i feel like its such an unimportant aircraft after the first 20 minutes, and serves such a grounded role as the starting plane, that Mitch at most might add an equal for the opposite team and leave it at that
Maybe the Cricket is both factions lol

Or Pala could get the cricket and that would balance things... except for the Dusa

Pala will probably get a dedicated DEAD/EWAC of their own

[wispy scroll]

Ah yes the two airframes not meant to be in missile heavy areas

The attack helicopter and the logistics bus

[wispy scroll]

Tarantula is based on an actual concept that got pretty far into development before it became the Osprey

Chicane is literally an Invictus

[devout yarrow]

Taras ans Chicanes are super tanky to missiles, the Tara eats them and the Chicane avoids them very easily. I suspect the Palacoax will be no different
Dont waste missiles on Helos, use guns

[wispy scroll]

I'd say equally capable tbh, there would definitely be a trade-off in range but I think overall they'd be about as capable as each other

[devout yarrow]

Giving the bdf plane a radar and ARHs makes sense because oh boy Ifrits are SCARY

[vital temple]

I mean the Vortex and Revoker are meant to counter the Ifrits.

[devout yarrow]

Idk its hard to say where this would fit, we dont know where the tac bomber and cas plane are going for sure and those both tip the balance a LOT, and we know those are coming

And the capabilities of those are important too

This suggestion makes the most sense for BDF. The design suggestions and the emphasis on being somewhat equal to the compass really make that clear

The Vortex is a nice high end compass counter but it has a lot of drawbacks like flight handling and the super high price

[west cargo]

i find that this harrier ripoff and a compass could work well together in the early game if both are accessible to either faction, the harrier has better situational awareness and is slightly quicker to deploy that the compass could benefit from while the harrier ripoff could benefit from the compass better weapon capacity and manuverability while mantaining some capabilites that the cricket can't keep up with

[devout yarrow]

I think less overall hardpoints with greater A2A at the cost of reduced A2G capability works well

[vital temple]

So far with faction equivilents, they've not been direct counterparts, including when it comes to price.

I can't imagine the BDF Compass equivalent being super close in cost to the Compass itself. Could be as low as $15m, or as high as $45m.

[west cargo]

The awareness also comes with a radar, wich would make it useful in the early game, without having to rely on a tier 3 aircraft for that role.

[devout yarrow]

Yeah thats exactly what im thinking

[west cargo]

the harrier costs near those ranges, so it isn't far off to say that this bootleg would cost nearly the same, i've seen some harriers going for a bit lower than those tough

[wispy scroll]

Perhaps the harrier could have better hardpoints? Not more, but each able to carry more weight? The compass as a trainer isn't meant to carry the heavier munition loads that exist for non-trainer aircraft but this fake Harrier could as it isn't a trainer

[vital temple]

If a harrier equivilent goes to BDF, would the upcoming ground attacker make more sense for PALA?

[devout yarrow]

I suggested that, this suggestion really hinges on where the upcoming, verbally confirmed aircraft go

[wispy scroll]

I just think that BDF needs a Compass equivalent that can operate on the Annex

[west cargo]

i'm pretty sure the CAS aircraft can only operate on land, besides it might just be a tier 2 aircraft to bridge the gap for a bit.

[wispy scroll]

Like one of the few Aircraft the game need needs, as currently they are with a strong disadvantage in TC that never really goes away, except in the mid game where they can operate the Vortex off carrier before equivalent PALA players can operate the Ifrit

[devout yarrow]

Yeah it might just be thr compass equivalent, but considering this suggestion as if it were confirmed, the cas plane could easily go either way, especially if PALA gets a light fighter

But the CAS plane makes far more sense for BDF in the current reality where a compass euqal is not confirmed, and the CAS plane might be the Compass equal

Ifrit is strongly multitole and is extremely powerful in all roles even when it has mixed loads
Compass is also strongly multirole and can perform all tasks very handily
Pala Coax is probably going to be doing both light vehicle transport and some pretty decent medium range gunship work

The vortex excells in strike and and Revoker excells at A2A but neither are super similar
The Medusa is also very strong in its position but sucks at basically anything else

I feel like BDF (excluding the Tarantula sorta) is just more specialized

[west cargo]

it's like a barebones fighter aircraft with pylons, it has it's advantages of being barely fast enough to keep up with a afterburner aircraft while being tanky, however not having radar, afterburner or long range attacks that aren't as predictable as a scythe hinders it from actually being a competent aircraft against something like a revoker or vortex, having something like the bootleg harrier is a good option for situational awareness or actual air to air capabilites if it does.

[west cargo]

If going by the cost of an A 10 and the frogfoot seem to go arround the same price as a cricket for some reason, even then i don't think the CAS plane will have that good air to air capabilites, it seems more useful to destroy ground units and bases than it would do for air to air, so there's still a gap within the boscali forces for air to air in early levels. it might be more like a beefed up compass that specializes in ground attacks

[devout yarrow]

Cricket is far more advanced than either of those lol, stealtheir too
A real cas plane by NO standards should probably be nice and stealthy to an extent, id expect a higher price

[west cargo]

then it would reach tier 2 because stealth isn't exactly cheap if you want to bring it up, if is like that, then it might be more like blackbird in my mind, but it isn't that's already been tought of before

[devout yarrow]

20 or 30 mil perhaps
Im ngl the A10 and Su25 are both pieces of garbage technologically speaking in any modern sense

[west cargo]

And most ground to ground roles are taken by somthing else, unless you were to use something like an F16XL

[devout yarrow]

Yeah a cas plane would be around the 20-40 million range I bet
Very good a2g and cheaper than a full on multirole, anemic at a2a and flies like a bus

[west cargo]

i bet this would cost more than a compass if it integrates a radar.

[devout yarrow]

Eeeh id say in the range but more than a compass is a hard sell in the case of BDF, where the revoker is already down at 75 and the Vortex is, what, 120?
Actually i think vortex is 90

[west cargo]

I meant arround 40 to 50 maybe even 60m

[devout yarrow]

Id wager something lower to actually encourage its use, but if we're getting something even lower maybe 40-50 is a solid bet and make it rank 3

[true citrus]

third rank 3 bdf plane with the same job

[west cargo]

I would put it in rank 2 tbh, there's a huge gap between 1 and 3 that's occupied by helis

[devout yarrow]

What rank is the vortex

[keen pilot]

Rank 3

[devout yarrow]

Ig 2 works then lol

[vital temple]

There is a big price gap between the most expensive rank 2 and the cheapest rank 3 as well.

Putting something in the middle there seems like a sensible option.

[keen pilot]

Rank 2 is fine, I just don't want it power-crept cuz "VTOL capabilities" that almost never get used

[west cargo]

I mean it barely gets used beacuse of after burner, if the HarierRipoff™️ doesn't use it for take off, it could make the vortex look cooler.

Bedsides if the Cas aircraft can actually use afterburner or be as fast as a compass then it would replace the harrier bootlegs of the awareness while having more payload than it, so there isn't much to fear if this aircraft or both are added.

[true citrus]

the suggested compass counterpart would not have an afterburner

[west cargo]

I meant the CAS aircraft

[vital temple]

I can't imagine the CAS aircraft having an afterburner

specialised ground attackers are usually subsonic

[west cargo]

if it's able to keep up with the compass it's good enough, but my point is that the bootleg harrier is like an early air to air attack aircraft, while the CAS aircraft could be a ground attack focused aircraft, both of them could have their specialties where the compass is the middling one at that given how it has both but no radar

[devout yarrow]

I think a high bypass engine with low ir signature is a given, it might not even be a jet
A while back Mitch said that a CAS plane would probably be a turboprop and ngl i fw that so hard

[west cargo]

Basically a bigger, faster cricket wouldn't be bad

[vital temple]

Turboprop CAS sounds like something between Compass and Cricket

[devout yarrow]

Put enough power into it and it could get really fast and keep a low signature

[vital temple]

though a turboprop cheap CAS basically rules out the CAS aircraft being anyway near as capable as a harrier, SU-35, or A-10

[west cargo]

I'm imagining something similar to an a 10 or a mixture between these

[stuck cove]

Propfan mentioned

[vital temple]

ngl something like this would make a fun vtol ground attack. And it wouldn't be using the same method as the Medusa or Vortex for vtol

[mild canyon]

This is, by far, the strongest argument for this aircraft to be harrier-adjacent.

Early match is almost entirely Compass spam. And on Ignus, the Annex’s are completely useless spawn points, while PALA can spawn from Hyperions at the start- meaning not only can BDF teams not defend their (weaker) carriers from air attack efficiently, they can’t use their carriers as spawns to surprise PALA teams with flanking attacks.

Competitively speaking, if you faction locked both BDF and PALA to their canon aircraft, BDF would lose 10/10 matches because the Compass is the meta aircraft for the first 2-3 sorties of every match, PVP or PVE.

I don’t think the CAS jet and a BDF Harrier-ish jet have to be the same aircraft, or mutually exclusive. A dedicated CAS jet could compliment a more limited STOVL jet, and the Compass could compete with both.

[true citrus]

compass only during the last nocs

[warm lagoon]

this heavily reminds me of the ORCA

[vital temple]

love the orca!

[mild canyon]

Yeah the Compass is insanely relevant for its price point, honestly often overshadowing the Revoker as the “cost efficient fighter” for the majority of both PVP and PVE players.

If you take a step back and look at faction balance solely through what canon aircraft each side has… yeah, it’s really strong. But it’s also beloved by the community, so instead of nerfing it, I think the best “fix” is adding a truly competitive BDF jet to even the playing field.

And for the BDF to have a Compass peer, it needs to operate off of the Annex. STOVL typically results in less agile aircraft, so an onboard radar and increased Scythe payload would be an interesting upside to some of its downsides.

[west cargo]

I do have an idea of what I could draw based on the ideas brought on the table

Besides even if it's ending up with the same propulsion system as a medusa it isn't that bad keeping in mind that most aircraft have similar configuration and sounds while the only factor being If they afterburn or not, and neither do I think it would rob of the medusa's unique coolness when it takes off.

[viral fossil]

Convair Model 200 mentioned rahhhhh

[misty bane]

I do think this concept as a main influence for an Annex VTOL would fill important gap in the line up: the F15/Mig 25/F14 aesthetic.

I know it's a meme, but the F15 and F14 probably being the most recognizable fighter jets in history should have something that resembles them in game. This is a great way to incorporate some design inspirations from them.

[west cargo]

The f14 and f15 do need their own aircraft tbh, if it was a heavy naval or ground aircraft role sure. But it's something that has to match the compass something like those would far outclass it.

[hard sail]

i hope the new helo will also get a decent set of missiles because i don't expect the door guns to achieve much

[devout yarrow]

Holy shit is that an Evangelion reference?!

[west cargo]

It could be fun for putting a coast guard skin on, putting on a chicane makes it look like an enforcer with it's gun sticking out.

[devout yarrow]

Sums it up very nicely

Also to the above tiltjet design, yeah thats rad but remember these absolutely suck efficiency wise in a VTOL and bigger wings would be really helpful for cruising

[west cargo]

I would like a tiltjet to just recreate the gunship attacks in Eva lol, but yes the harrier bootlegs is still the most preferable.

[devout yarrow]

Door guns are rad but missiles are ofc going to be the main weapon, at least for opening up on harder, deadlier enemies before you close in to mop up

If we ever get a tiltjet there better be an Eva skin ready or i will be very disappointed in the Eva community

[west cargo]

I agree. It could also work for the world's most inefficient cargo aircraft of all time.

[vital temple]

I do think if possible going for unique VTOL configurations is preferable. Every single VTOL in the game has a unique method so far.

Including the new PALA heli.

[stuck cove]

NO lately has been drawing more from the lesser-known losers than the most famous aircraft.

[devout yarrow]

none of these aircraft fit for the compact needs of a LHD style vessel

[misty bane]

This is one of the things I love most about NO. I especially love how much the Chicane derives from the Commanche.

But I still think there should eventually be some nods to the famous ones

[wispy scroll]

It's definitely closer to the Invictus

[devout yarrow]

Invictus is just round commanche, change my mind

[misty bane]

Probably... the tail rotor is definitely more Commache though

[mild canyon]

Which I kinda hate- the losers lost for a reason lol, you definitely notice how that limits capability (such as in the case of the Vortex, which has a much worse external payload than a F-35B)

I hope future additions continue blend prototypes with successful production aircraft, especially for fighters where kinematic performance really really matters

[misty bane]

I do like the fact that this game allows me to play with fictional takes on aircraft that are lesser known and underrepresented in other games

[tiny tulip]

thrust-augmented wings, XFV-12 style

or as someone else suggested, X-32 style, with harrier-esque front nozzles but a more f-35/vortex-like rear nozzle that points down

or the HSVTOL concept

[devout yarrow]

im ngl we should forget about HSVTOL, its not proven in flight and aircraft of that general layout already have so many issues that make them very poor for CAS and CAP

[viral fossil]

my vote goes to this style, very similar to the harrier

[devout yarrow]

something with a harrier or x32 style engine is best imo
its not exciting but its familiar to the faction and is a very proven design

whether its 2 or 4 nozzels or 1 main nozzle and 2 diverted ones, or a lift fan, or 2 main nozzels and a fan, whatever, any combination of these two systems is probably the best choice

[wispy scroll]

Harrier Adjacent I think

[viral fossil]

basically suggesting the same style of vectored cold/bypass and hot thrust

[devout yarrow]

yeah
I kinda want 2 main nozzles, maybe afterburning, and a lift fan or hidden diverted nozzles, somewhere nice and inbetween the X32 and Harrier functionally and aesthetically more like a Yak

[viral fossil]

kinda against afterburners since this has to be subsonic or high subsonic at most, diverted bypass nozzles like Harrier/MD 279/X-32 is completely adequate, Vortex already uses the Lift Fan config so idk if we want to do that again

although Medusa already has this style of nozzle

[devout yarrow]

thats why i say 2 main nozzels for level flight, and additional diverted thrusters hidden in the belly for vtol

Dusa already has the 4 exposed ones, Vortex already has the lift fan and big, single thruster at the back

[viral fossil]

though, that is a more expensive option that makes in inherently faster because more efficient net thrust generation

[devout yarrow]

so (imo) lets do 2 nozzels for level flight, and 1 or 2 hidden ones for VTOL/STOVL

and yeah afterburners do kinda defeat the point

[viral fossil]

you think BDF would keep the pattern of using tailless aircraft for the lift configuration

[devout yarrow]

pattern? Isnt the Vortex the only Tailless VTOL jet out of the 2 we have

Also wdym by more expensive option and such up here
Which option?

[viral fossil]

Revoker and Vortex are tailless aircraft

on X-32 the bypass air in forward flight is used normally, while something like harrier the bypass air has its own nozzles at all times, you generally make more efficient thrust when bypass thrust is directed normally

[devout yarrow]

Idk i kinda want something with a tail lol

oh, yeah, so that would give the 2 hidden 2 main nozzle config more thrust and acceleration?

[viral fossil]

overall yeah, less drag too

[devout yarrow]

doesnt bleed speed like a piece of tissue paper in a turn

I absolutely hate flying the vortex for A2A because it bleeds all its speed and stalls violently

[viral fossil]

thats more a factor of aero, these kinds of engines actually produce a ton of thrust for its weight

[devout yarrow]

oh yeah I hear the Pegasus was an insane design for the time

[viral fossil]

[insert me yapping about how the vortex should get a vortex lift buff]

anyways thats getting off topic so i digress

[devout yarrow]

Vortex is a very bad design for dogfighting, but its very stealthy and thats neat

I really would be interested in seeing a combination of Yak/Harrier for a new plane if we got on in this niche. its different enough to be distinct but still flows with BDFs design

[viral fossil]

judging from its design, it probably wouldve been solid if all of its aero capability was modeled

[tiny tulip]

yeah that's fair, it'd also have comparable flight characteristics in VTOL to the vortex which'd be handy for being a trainer or just for piloting commonality

[devout yarrow]

Yep, handling wise at the very least

[solid mesa]

Scorpion looks real cool, they brought one to an airshow near me a few years back

Harrier looks less cool so inferior

[solid mesa]

Said media used claims by known reformers and people paid by Russia State media for propaganda purposes as its sources

Said airframe was also the 4th ever production stealth aircraft and the most advanced aircraft at the time pioneering multiple new groundbreaking technologies that are the standard for its generation

[solid mesa]

It's almost like all the other technology in it made it expensive and not the VTOL

The reasons we use thrust vectoring instead of tiltjet are quite extensive

Here is a basic rundown,
Jet engines are heavy, tube you move are not,
Jet engines are big, tubes are not,
In a tiltjet any major engine issue is cathostropic, worse than on any tiltrotor,
Tiltjets inherently need stronger engines to overcome the extra weight and drag inherent to a tilt-jet design
Vulnerable to enemy fire

What about a tiltrotor like was suggested? Let's break that down as well,
Tiltrotors are better suited for weight than medium speed attack,
Tiltrotors are big,
Tiltrotors/jets are VERY difficult to maintain/design due to that whole "tilt" thing
The rotors get in the way,
It unnecessarily increases size by a large amount

There's a reason we don't use tilt-x aircraft very often beyond cargo uses,
So please stop parroting reformer talking points, taken directly from the Kremlin, they may seem knowledgeable but remember, they are the same people who have come up with the "aero-gavin"(winged m113) a fighter jet without anything invented post Korea, and a program that involves shooting planes with AA missiles to determine that yes, planes die when you make them explode

Yes, these are all real proposals you can look up

[earnest topaz]

Thankfully the maintenance issues aren't really a thing in NO which means the superior control of lift based hover over thrust based hover isn't canceled out by those logistical concerns.

Additionally many of the concerns about rotor interference with hardpoints are mitigated either by folding rotor concepts or by expansion of internal carriage, both of which also benefit from maintenance concerns being nonexistent

[tiny tulip]

there is only so much internal that you can use for carriage though

[solid mesa]

Gotta have room for the tilt part of tilt rotor after all

[mild canyon]

And maintenance issues inform design, so while you don't have to worry about BDF crew chiefs having an aneurism (because they don't exist) the aircraft in question do have some influence in the sense that they aren't purposely designed to be maintenance nightmares

[solid mesa]

If I wanted to assassinate a crew chief I would assign them to a Russian naval tilt jet attack aircraft

[west cargo]

since the canards are like elevators , the design doesn't end up looking that much like a harrier tbh, wich is frankly better

[earnest topaz]

The other reason i push so hard for the HSVTOL concept is that it fits the overall ethos of BDF mostly avoiding pure single role airframes and because they synchronize very well with the tarantula, allowing for more interesting mission profiles than a pure jet would

[tiny tulip]

i feel like BDF is definitely closer to single-role, the tarant seems to be the exception rather than the norm

[solid mesa]

You could fit a standard STVOL into multiple roles without crippling the BDF navy from mass aneurysm

[devout yarrow]

Do not reply to him, its an obvious rage bait alt account

[solid mesa]

I was bored
Decided to bite to see what would happen

[devout yarrow]

He'll spew some shit at the risk of mods getting involved because thats the goal, keep yourselves restrained friends, dont feed them

[solid mesa]

Now I want an arrogavin an an April 1st aircraft

[earnest topaz]

Aerogavin vs blitzfighter

[wispy scroll]

Hear me out

We strap wings to a Linebreaker

[vital temple]

See i'm not a fan of just copying the harrier nozzles, as that's been done with the Medusa

[hard sail]

triple nozzles?
2 harrier style nozzles at the front and a regular vortex-like nozzle at the back

though i don't think such a cheap airframe needs vtol, just a low enough stall speed to not need arresting wires

[devout yarrow]

Thats just X32

I think we should do 2 in the back and 1 or 2 in the belly that hide, you get a little more YAK or Harrier anesthetically and more efficient thrust than the pure Harrier layout without looking exactly like an X32/Vortex

[west cargo]

i don't get why you guys are so insecure of the thrust system being like the medusa's, even if they have the same type of thrusters, they are still going to be different aircraft and the layout is going to differ as well, it's like saying that the irfrit shouldn't exist beacuse it would use afterburners the same way the revoker does, besides they serve different purpouses and they aren't going to replace each other.

the image on the left is what is proposed, while the one on the right is what the medusa's layout looks like

[true citrus]

Also with the Medusa leaning towards bdf at the moment it would make sense to have similar systems, the game already has 4 unique vtol/ stovl systems

[west cargo]

you don't have to reinvent the wheel each time to make a new aircraft, and also it could show how the success of this previous gen aircraft led to the decision of making the medusa use the same reliable system as this aircraft but bigger, while the vortex is more like an experimental take on the vtol fighter concept but using afterburners and a fan enabling it to be be faster and better than the previous aircraft, that's why even if this one aircraft has been outclassed by it's peers, it still would be useful because it's cheaper and it can be used in the early game.

[devout yarrow]

its for the sake of them being more distinct as VTOLs, plus it was stated before that its more efficient to have all your air go through the entire engine cycle in level flight like the Vortex or X32 rather than to divert a bunch from the engine into an extra set of nozzles like the Harrier or Medusa. its more preferable for a more maneuverable fighter/attack aircraft because it offers extra thrust

[west cargo]

I did bring up the X32's Vtol systems before, but this thing doesn't exactly need to break the sound barrier and the X32's design is similar to the vortex, so i find this configuration pretty servicable for somehing of this range and price.

[devout yarrow]

Yeah we dont need afterburning or whatever

[latent scaffold]

personally i love the medusa’s thrust vectoring, i love the 120 degree swivel and i think it on a more agile frame would be lovely

[viral fossil]

the Harrier could probably easily break mach if its inlet was designed for it

afterburning designs like P.1154 and Model 279 with PCBs or Afterburners are designed for mach 2

[west cargo]

perhaps it should be able to match in speed with a compass toe to toe, but it's payload is lower since it needs the space for vtol

[wispy scroll]

I think transonic makes the most sense

[viral fossil]

0.8-9 on the deck, 1.0 at altitude

then again mach 1 is still transonic technically