Medusa should be BDF, and some ideas for a PALA Electronic Warfare/Support Aircraft

[leaden cove]

Key point first: here's why myself and a few others believe that while assigning airframes to factions is still in its early stages, the assignment of the Medusa to PALA doesn't really make sense

• As a STOVL aircraft it fits in really well with 2 other aircraft that would also work very well as BDF: the upcoming fighter and the VL-49
• The Deuce is particularly associated with naval operations such as in carrier duel where it pulls double duty as Electronic Warfare/SEAD and AEW&C. Operating it off of the Hyperion is somewhat awkward, mainly due to its main feature of being a STOVL aircraft. The ramp forces you to set nozzle control to manual so that it doesn't start lifting off before reaching the ramp and colliding. Landings aren't much better as many of the common short/vertical landing techniques such as matching V off to one side risk collisions with the FLOLS or defensive SAM launchers and the angled deck throws off rolling short landings

Now I'm not going to go here without leaving PALA in the dark but I think that they need an aircraft that clicks better with the Hyperion as well as some of their other aircraft, and I might be bending the suggestion rules a bit but here's some basic specifications for this type of aircraft to make it notably distinct from the medusa

[leaden cove]

• Great high altitude loiter performance, something that would remain at the edge of AD radar ranges, using its sensors to look over the horizon and direct friendly assets
• A different approach to EW to go with this, where the medusa's electronic warfare system works by basically shining a light into a radar's eyes, this would be more of an area jammer, creating a bubble of interference around itself that other aircraft can take shelter in. As missiles enter this their solutions would be degraded, making them easy to notch or kinematically defeat
• Greater capacitor power than the medusa and a laser system with wider coverage, such as a turreted system on its belly or even multiple emitters

In short, where the medusa is tuned toward penetrating SEAD with a secondary AEW&C capability, this aircraft would be primarily AEW and standoff EWAR

[short condor]

a slight issue with that idea is that it's sorta got conflicting goals, if it's meant to stay at long standoff distances then its relatively close-range EWar bubble wouldn't be greatly useful

an idea that i had was that PALA's dusa-analogue would have a chemical laser instead, being notably more powerful (enough to easily burn out missiles at long ranges or even serve as a reasonably capable air to air weapon), but with limited ammo/fuel

i do think having it be conventional takeoff and landing, as well as it being more standoff/awacs than dusa's sead focus, would be good ideas

[leaden cove]

I can see the conflict, and how it might not exactly be what I'm after with its EWAR/SEAD approach.

A common phrase associated with wild weasels is "First In, Last Out" and the medusa leans hard into the "First In" half of this. I'm trying to lean something more towards the "Last Out" half

[short condor]

yeah, agreed. having something better at wide-area team assistance than dusa's penetration focus would be good

having a multi-output laser would be a good call i think, being able to microwave several missiles at a time would be exceptionally handy

[leaden cove]

On that note, I just had another idea on what the hard kill system would be rather than a laser system something that particularly works with the idea of multiple simultaneous engagements with less positive target destruction

[short condor]

i assume the microwave idea you had in another channel

[lone wedge]

ifrit chemical laser system. Takes up both weapon bays completely and has limited ammo (like the gunpod on the compass)

Then make a seperate EWAR / Attack / AWACS plane for the hyperion to use. maybe a turboprop or something. (twin propfan?)

[frail cargo]

What if the pala aircraft had a single jamming system like the EF111 Raven, a big pod, and really leaned heavier into jamming with IR dazzlers instead of a laser, and addon systems in its bays like a ground radar or bubble jammer for allies to hide in. Idk, maybe even a datalink decoy system that cuts off a targets access to datalink and then feeds them false targets

Im just spitballin here.

[lone wedge]

yeah and then maybe a separate laser plane. or laser helicopter? could make a good fleet escort (probably even better than medusa since it can hover next to the ships it's protecting) and heavy attack heli. Just give it a huge amount of missiles and it can sit back in a fight and use it's laser to cover it against air defense. Then give it antiships and it can fight other ships too. would certainly be a lot different from another plane with a laser on it.

[frail cargo]

That feels more like a job gor a deticated warship than a helo or plane that needs to refuel every couple hours and go down for maintenance

[lone wedge]

also spitballing. I think there's got to be a laser aircraft for the faction that doesn't have the medusa. though they don't have to be the same as the EWAR / AWACS plane. So I am considering other places to put the laser on the non-medusa side.

I think splitting them up onto different planes and then making them work differently could be distinct. Like PALA's does laser have more or less range or maybe limited ammo (chemical) or not?

and then the jammers. that can go on some other plane, of course.

[viscid sun]

If we get new EW aircraft, im sure it must have some another philosophy of creation and it must have features which we talk about new features for EW. Like chemical laser, optical pods, and maybe some new types of jammers and smart cruise missiles

[slender raptor]

I think dusa being a BDF aircraft would be helpful in other ways too. Currently pala has much better air to ground with the ifrit. Adding more a2g options to the dusa could help. It’s either that or a mid tier dedicated strike aircraft for bdf

[tired cave]

Just let dusa be PALA

[short condor]

the stovl fighter will probably be a decent striker

[leaden cove]

Why though? The point is that it doesn't really work as PALA.

[jovial dove]

Not a huge fan of faction specific aircraft tbh. Either the other faction will have just a reskin with the same specs or they will get something better or worse which will create potential imbalance.

UNLESS they give me that sweet small L-159-like single seater i want so bad in this game.

[tired cave]

How?

[leaden cove]

Because if the hyperion is PALA, the medusa is very incompatible with the hyperion, plus BDF is turning into a very STOVL-centric faction from what mitch said recently

[tired cave]

Hyperion is a carrier with a ramp so dusa fits great and so does ifrit, also trust the devs

[small jolt]

Medusa's vectored thrust and STOVL capability would work best on a STOVL Carrier. The Hyperion would be able to use a fixed wing AEW&C platform analogous to the E-2 or something else. It could also use a specialized SEAD loadout for the ifrit, to model after the F/A-18 and EA-18G.

[topaz flame]

Live reaction of the rear landing gear struts that broke off by hitting the ramp because I didn't turn off auto vectoring on takeoff:

[signal rune]

I disagree with the medusa being awkward on the hyperion because in personal experience I've had no problems even when leaving things on auto.
But I still agree that it would be better on the upcoming STOVL carrier.

PALA's equivalent aircraft could potentially have a directional jammer rather than a "just that unit" jammer, and DIRCM for dealing with IRs and maybe even opticals, which would work similar to the existing offensive jammer.
A limited-use chemical laser would make sense as well, but probably as an external store instead of built in if the DIRCM idea is implemented, maybe they could be mutually exclusive

[leaden cove]

considering my idea of high power microwave being the notional PALA aircraft's hard-kill system it actually kinda works well as a combined system: when no targets are selected it broadcasts a long range, wide angle ECM cone out to each side of the aircraft, but when you select one or more missile targets it switches modes to engage them with narrow HPM beams that cause them to lose control/go ballistic

[signal rune]

While technically not hard-kill, it does sound interesting.
I feel that the beams should be inactive with nothing targeted though, to save capacitor energy and reduce overall ESM signature, but with a non-missile target selected it could swap to a directed ECM mode.
Obviuously less range and effectiveness than an actual jammer, but that's just the tradeoff of multipurpose equipment

[leaden cove]

honestly it could even still just be separate weapon slots like the deuce's ECM and laser, just that it's modes for the same system. the HPM's tradeoff would be that it can engage multiple targets simultaneously but it doesn't destroy them outright, instead they (permanently) lose guidance and possibly perform a random maneuver that throws them off so they're still a potential risk

[dreamy lion]

Why are we even talking about this already? There’s no point to this discussion until there are many new aircraft in game, the planes wont be split next update already

[signal rune]

I don't see the harm in discussing early and giving food for thought, its not like what we say here will terribly sway the final desicion

Besides, if Mitch somehow ends up agreeing, it's better he plans for the concept early instead of doing 90% of the work and having to start over after realising it doesn't quite fit

[Looks at the first draft of the hyperion]

[leaden cove]

SH?

[slender raptor]

It looks like a smaller revoker so I’m not sure on it’s weapon capacity

[leaden cove]

Just some spitballing but a neat contrast between BDF/PALA would be opposite hi/lo mixes where BDF's "hi" fighter is land-based vs the naval "lo"

[slender raptor]

Hi/lo in fighters is good but the ifrit is way more capable at a2g then then revoker

[dreamy lion]

pretty much the exact same

[slender raptor]

So still worse than ifrit for a2g

[leaden cove]

This is in part why lore-wise i don't like revoker being BDF: they overlap too much in terms of capability

||the more personal reason is i want a BDF dorito fighter||

[unreal agate]

Likely.

But STOVL capability likely means it can take off and land from places the Ifrit can't; so it can probably deploy closer to the front.

Also, it looks like the weapons are all in internal bays; so it'll perhaps have a somewhat easier time delivering the munitions.

[unreal agate]

I wonder what the PALA version of the Revoker will be.

Kind of makes sense, in that Revoker and the upcoming plane both round out the plane roster for BDF, with a ground based conventional fighter and a carrier based stealth fighter.

Meanwhile PALA gets the Ifrit, which offers a lot of weapons carried, but doesn't get the stealth or STOVL capability.

Though I wonder how the overall rosters will shape up, and what planes we'll see based on that.

[upper bridge]

maybe a semi-stealth high-altitude high speed interceptor like the MiG-31 with semi-recessed hypersonics

[deft roost]

Both sides should get their own planes that are in parity with each other. Only to avoid any asymmetry. If one side's aircraft performs differently than the opposing side's equivalent will only create balancing issues. But I am all for the BDF and PALA having different looking aircraft in their respectful role.

[dreamy lion]

there will be a lot of asymmetry, but hopefully diverse enough to where it wont be a clear cut X is better than Y

example of this is the assault carrier vs hyperion, while the assault carrier has tarantulas, a cheap fighter and landing craft, the hyperion has the more powerful ifrit

[hexed spear]

As far as EW/SEAD capabilities yes. Ideally both aircraft would be a bit 'Swiss army knife' in that they could carry Air to Air refuelling gear and, I dunno, Anti Submarine gear or specialised ground surveillance sensors depending on the task.

Given how the carriers are shaping up though I would like to see Pala get a more conventional support jet with an arrestor hook.

Right now though, the game doesn't really make it clear if you can hover the medusa in your current fuel/payload state (or allow you to dump fuel to achieve a VTOL state), so I'm curious how it will go on the Assault Carrier.

[heady goblet]

And how about....

B] Couldn't that be split into two different airframes, each having part of the Medusa features but stronger while lacking the other part? With revealing units now having a reword, dedicated EAW/Aerial recon platform (like combo of E-2 and P-3) makes much more sense, as well there could be EW/SEAD jet that would not have the radome or laser but would be equip for jamming and hitting radars (like combo of EA-6B and EF-111A)

Just asking for a friend....

[inland egret]

For the second aircraft, why not a Ifrit Growler variant? Reduces Dev time because they'd be tweaking an existing airframe, would make sense from a lore standpoint, and the aircraft could be balanced by making it heavier, reducing weapon capacity (no triple racks) and variety (no scythes?), and maybe only allowing double jamming pods at max. Could experiment with removing the internal weapon bays entirely as a balancing measure.

[heady goblet]

I tossed that several times around and everyone literally hisses at making variants of what's there. It would be cool, it would be fun, it would be realistic and it would be great worldbuilding step as you could then see the lineage progress and easily make for compatible pairs with comparable performance, but also it won't come.

[inland egret]

Damn shame. The EA-18 is such a cool platform, I could totally see a Growler Ifrit being a cool addition. I'm noticing a significant portion of this community lacks fundamental understanding of military aviation, like, in general, so I could see where certain individuals- like the ones that pop up in this thread- spout horrid takes and try to derail good ideas.

[heady goblet]

Tell me about it, I would like non stovl Medusa with higher capacity, being an attack bomber, like A-6 and having Medusa being the EA wariant of that.

[inland egret]

If we get the supersonic bomber Mitch mentioned, I see no reason for it to be a land based aircraft for the BDF and PALA gets a Ifrit Growler

[heady goblet]

Hell it could be done the way the whole thing with Eagle went from F-15 A/C fighter to E tactibomber to evolving into EX being an ultimate fighter-interceptor missile truck