US - Utah

[prisma saddle]

nope.

all 3 the same.

[keen glen]

Thanks

[prisma saddle]

i was lucky only broken stuff on mine have been a dead emmc.

[prisma saddle]

@real cedar you make it down?

[real cedar]

We are almost safe

On Bates canyon road

We will make it just fine

My smart watch reports very abnormal calorie and health stat numbers 😂

@prisma saddle

[prisma saddle]

to the bike or truck yet?

[real cedar]

Cars a mile away that will be easy compared to the rest of carrying someone else

Chugga chugga chugga.. can't stop a freight train 😂

[pseudo kestrel]

I'm glad you are (nearly) safe, I'm sorry your day took a turn to the bad side of "adventurous"

[real cedar]

We are in the car

And thx

[prisma saddle]

oh good. he need the hospital? or just sore?

glad you got there. your going to be dead tomorrow. @real cedar

sorry that all happened.

and like i said when you decide to go back up. if it can be a sat. i’ll go up with ya.

the wife gave me “permission”. lol.

[real cedar]

Hospital for a check up tomorrow tonight yes icing and going to bed

[real cedar]

Honestly the brush is extremely overgrown atm. It might be best if we can get an escort up

[real cedar]

Don't worry about it. It was a fun experience ... Sum total I think the weight added to my shoulders was my buddy + his bag + plus my tool bag + all the water and stuff. Got down though

I'm home

[real cedar]

I will likely just be sore haha

[prisma saddle]

im going to try to look into that this week get some sort of contact that can offer that.

most of the land looks riotinto

[real cedar]

Yeah the road would be ideal. Hell id bike up it if they let me. I can bike in the dark

[pseudo kestrel]

any word on your buddy?

[real cedar]

Won't know till 1 pm today

[pseudo kestrel]

thank you for letting us know ❤️

[real cedar]

@obsidian storm @prisma saddle in frequency we should put frequency slot 51 not 915

That might be why people keep selecting 20

[prisma saddle]

ya i saw that.. was a bit confused myself. will take care of it

[real cedar]

Thx. Idk if that was my mistake or just a Mistake in the many updates we have had

[prisma saddle]

who knows. 🙂

im on it

that whole quick setup needs to be changed around.. ill see what i can do. its very confusing. might just give the menu paths depending on the phone OS being used.

[real cedar]

Go ahead and give it a whack

[prisma saddle]

going to be teaching from it on wed night.. so will have something done by then

[keen glen]

I'm seeing a new node with the name utahmesh.net pointing to a different discord

[prisma saddle]

on 20 or 51?

[keen glen]

51

[manic fractal]

It’s just a Discord group focused more on the mesh in Utah instead of a channel for Utah in a larger Discord (this one). It’s not very active.

[haughty moon]

Do we have repeaters on 51? Getting trace routes with no hops one way and two unknown repeaters the other way.

[keen glen]

https://freq51.net/infrastructure

[prisma saddle]

we shouldn't.. but that does not mean someone has not set one up.

[haughty moon]

Yeah copy the routers, I’m talking repeaters

[prisma saddle]

yup.. i think out of date routers can do this or have a hand in it too if i recall. could be wrong.

[obsidian storm]

What channels do you have configured?

[haughty moon]

A private and LongFast 51

[obsidian storm]

Sometimes that'll show up if a node doesn't have a shared channel with you

[real cedar]

Hey HAMS

I've got an amazing idea. I know @reef ridge is putting up FPR but as a great option do y'all think you can contact some folks for OGDEN radio towers and put a BBS node up there. It has clear LOS to mt Harrison

http://ogdenarc.org/hardware - MO.html

And would spare me having to climb this

[reef ridge]

I was actually thinking about this one, I was going to go to one of the OARC meetings and ask about it.

I thought Lewis Peak might be a good spot too.

[real cedar]

I would just go place it on that tower that Batman was using but make sure you're lightning arresting is top notch. In the meantime, yeah I would highly recommend going to one of those meetings and seeing that they'll allow us to run a nebra up there just like lake mountain

[ember torrent]

Doesn’t have a shared channel, is on slot 51, and is setup as a role to retransmit.

[real cedar]

Oh so it won't reply via DM?

[ember torrent]

Not in my single dm test.
Was on a node with only an encrypted network, saved a contact from the default longfast 51, sent the dm, no work. Think the error note was something about no shared key.

[real cedar]

Got ya. Is that on purpose. Who owns BBB

[ember torrent]

Was hoping it lit up everyone on the default or through dm.

Thought that beautiful bbs was @obsidian storm , but @manic fractal claimed one too. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[reef ridge]

No, I meant something supplemental specifically for central Ogden. FPR is still getting the fox.

[ember torrent]

Mount ogden might be better than Benny Lommy.

[real cedar]

Ben lommy is a novelty

My ogden is a good idea

But that makes FPR completely redundant

[reef ridge]

I don't think so. I couldn't hit FPR from the middle of Ogden. I had to go further east to make contact.

[manic fractal]

I have one running up north. There was one down south too maybe one RaxAux’s node? I thought we were running the same one (meshing-around) and the cool thing about it is that different instances running in the same mesh can sync up and transfer messages back and forth through the mesh.

[real cedar]

What I mean is those routers would be far too closely spaced. I'd take down FPR in favor of mt ogden

If we got mt ogden

That's what I mean

[reef ridge]

That wouldn't leave a dead zone in the South Ogden/Layton area?

What program do you guys use to simulate radio propagation?

[obsidian storm]

I don't control any bbs at all

[real cedar]

No it wouldnt

Mt ogden has excellent LOS south of the base

[ember torrent]

With fpr i could 1 hop bountiful starting at 400n and I15 in mariott slaterville. Probably similar results plus 20’ up a tower to move the coverage towards the mountain.

[real cedar]

https://www.heywhatsthat.com/

[ember torrent]

Yeah, but real world traceing hones it in.

[real cedar]

No BBS on lake mountain yet?

[real cedar]

I'm not generally worried about number of hops to a router in the valley. Like the routers main job is to send things as far across the network as possible not to provide perfect coverage.. better coverage in the cities can be accomplished by well positioned solar battery powered clients

They are sort of your large air routes so to speak. Collect all the jazz in the bottom. Route it far south north east and West of where one is to the closest router.. send it back down into the noise

[obsidian storm]

There's certainly some hidden clients in there

[ember torrent]

Agree to disagree i suppose. Router is high up and prioritized to kill dem hops.

[real cedar]

Well, the problem with thinking about it from the perspective of minimizing hops is that it's a mesh Network and you can't really control that as well as you think

Sometimes it will just take hops through the city and not take the router

That's kind of how a mesh Network works. It's not an infrastructure mode Network so to speak it's very ad hoc

Does the router help? Absolutely but guarantee you minimum number of hops absolutely not

The developers have actually said this quite a few times. In fact, I remember having a conversation with them in general about that

[ember torrent]

🤷🏼

[real cedar]

I'm trying to think of a way to explain why it doesn't guarantee you that in a better way. I wish I could have a good way to do it for the docs, but let's say you have a router that has itself first in the contention window. Well if you miss its rebroadcast then you're left with either the router lates in the area or the client rebroadcast to receive the message. Does that make sense? So it's entirely possible you will just miss a router's message even if you have LOS. And that's the case where you'll see it. Hop around and do other things. Since every other client in the area is going to be rebroadcasting anyways just after the router.

I'm not saying the routers don't help but I have very good data on rufio's node and basically even though he has direct line of sight to aur, he doesn't always go through aur.. 😂 much to my frustration

This actually opens the conversation that I'm genuinely interested in seeing. If every router had synchronized time, would the network be more reliable? Would having reliable timekeeping and timestamps across the entire network make it better able to coordinate contention windows? I really wouldn't know this isn't the part of the code I'm familiar with

Because I know there's RTC devices available for the majority of our compatible radios and there's GPS as well. To me it begs the question, is it just timer-based or does it actually use the date and time as part of the calculation? I don't know

[reef ridge]

Don't all nodes send out a time stamp and the receiving node adjusts accordingly so the average time is agreed upon across the mesh?

With a preference for gps time, of course.

[real cedar]

I'm pretty sure it's something along these lines, but I've never really looked into it as deeply until well now

[ember torrent]

I dont think it cares about time. Doesnt it compare the packet id?

[reef ridge]

It has to care about time, how would it calculate contention windows otherwise?

[keen glen]

https://meshtastic.org/docs/overview/mesh-algo/

[real cedar]

Yeah they would have to be some means of time keeping even if it was just a timer and not accurate date and time

[ember torrent]

Not it reading that link.

[real cedar]

Oh okay so it does care about time

It's using csma so it literally has to

And that's for the unreliable hop. The reliable one I'm sure builds on that

Not to mention being able to ascertain how much longer to wait in the contention window when the channel goes idle and everything wants to rebroadcast

[pseudo kestrel]

I haven't looked into it very far, but if it is useful I can be a relay point.

[pseudo kestrel]

D801 also had one once upon a time. unsure if it's still active

[ember torrent]

So relative time. Not exact time.

[real cedar]

It is but we need to do some freaking Network maintenance there before I even put it on a permanent Port

[real cedar]

No, it's unclear as to which the docs there don't actually say which

I'm guessing we would have to read the code in order to ascertain the answer to what I was looking for

I'm guessing relative would probably be the easiest implementation so I would lean towards yes, I just don't know for sure

Maybe I'll read the relevant code later. Right now I need to go make a ground beef bowl. I'm fucking hungry 🤣

[reef ridge]

Seems to be averaged relative time, but it's weighted for a preference for GPS so the timestamp on messages doesn't drift to far from the actual time.

[real cedar]

Yeah I'm seeing that. So as long as there's some GPS discipline, devices or GPS disciplined routers on the network, the network should be able to maintain relatively low drift

This is making me want to go install GPS on one of the routers, although I'm really not feeling up for a climb right now 😂

[reef ridge]

Now I'm thinking I should have gotten a GPS module for FPR.

I guess if we have enough nodes with GPS it shouldn't matter too much.

[real cedar]

Yeah it shouldn't matter much also there's a non zero chance we are gonna lose FPR to lightning again so don't go too overboard 🤣

[hallow dagger]

Late to the game I know, but I brought an extra antenna mount to use as a step to reach the top of the pole on NP. It was aluminum and bent a little but worked fine. A steel one would be ideal. Tiny and light weight. A strap to tether yourself to the pole and lean against would be even better.
https://www.amazon.com/UngSung-Stainless-Cellular-Accepted-Connector/dp/B08DKLLQ54

[reef ridge]

What a good idea! I was looking at lineman gear, but that's similar and way cheaper. 😂

[reef ridge]

Don't tell me that, I'm loading it up with lightning arrestors, hopes, and dreams. 😭

[ember torrent]

Also noticed, turn on “unmessable” through the app, node wont populate the dm list. So ~cant dm an unmessagable mode.

[real cedar]

So what I would suggest is south facing solar panel but west facing box and vertical antenna below the maximum height of the tower. Let lightning strike the tower not the antenna haha

Also yes @ember torrent is right you Must set the femtofox to be messageable if your going to run a BBS on it. Get with @umbral ice on BBS configs. Hopefully with any luck both your 1 watt nodes should see one another. 120 miles from each other

[reef ridge]

I was going to mount the antenna on the bottom of the case to maximize water resistance and hopefully make it less tantalizing to lightning.

[real cedar]

That would do more harm than good unless you have a true dipole and even then you'll be pointing the upward lobes down which won't help its range as much you.. want it straight up and down

In fact, it doesn't matter which orientation up or downward that you put it in for lightning protection because lightning will still induce across the wire since it's parallel anyways

What's essential is that you have a lightning arrester on it and you're properly grounded. As in, I would stretch a ground wire along the entire length of the tower down to the ground or wherever anything else is grounded.

[reef ridge]

The antenna would still be vertical, it's just be on the bottom of the case instead of the top. Doesn't the donut come from the center of the antenna and it shouldn't matter if it's pointed up or down?

[real cedar]

There's a reason why you see all antennas pointed straight up and down with the feet on the bottom. It's because of the ground plane. Now you're going to make the ground plane opposite to the reference plane which is going to point the lobes downwards and thus would destroy any chance of fpr seeing Mount Harrison

I wish I had a good graphic for this

[reef ridge]

A dipole looks like this, no?

[real cedar]

An ideal dipole does

But reality is the donut is shifted upwards instead of downwards and not uniform

It's a good approximation but it's also a misrepresentation. There is a beam width in every dipole but because the ground reference plane is below, there is an upward shift. Simulated versus real is always different

[reef ridge]

Okay, the top it is then. Solar panel near the top, surge protector on the power line from the panel, enclosure further down on the post with an arrested antenna on the top.

[obsidian storm]

OK.

You're alive.

What was your trail you took to POTM?

I want to go add a gpio labs filter to it.

the trail I took last time was miserable.

[reef ridge]

I haven't actually read up on the BBS part of things. This is the one everyone is using, correct?
https://github.com/TheCommsChannel/TC2-BBS-mesh

[prisma saddle]

oh thought it was meshing around.

https://github.com/SpudGunMan/meshing-around

i’m prob wrong.

[reef ridge]

I'll use whichever fits into our system best.

[prisma saddle]

#1197577977781821541 message

think that’s it.

[real cedar]

I feel like after yesterday me and you have very different ideas on what is miserable

😂

[prisma saddle]

haha.

[real cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/bronn-laughing-game-of-thrones-gif-9416726

Just giving you shit

Tbf I never accomplished the task. At least you did

[manic fractal]

I’ve tried out two different BBS systems. There’s TC2’s bot that is lighter on the number of functions but seems more robust and SpudGunMan’s bot that has more fun, gee-whiz features but it doesn’t seem to be as reliable but that could entirely be my bad implementation and config. There was a little discussion on which bot to run on the router nodes a while back.

[pseudo kestrel]

I have the systemd job running the spudgun bot restart every 9 hours

[manic fractal]

TC2 is more simple but I had fewer problems and higher reliability.

[manic fractal]

Meshing-around has more “fun” functions but often doesn’t do what I expect it to do. I’m not a coder though and someone else could probably really tune the config file or .py files to make it stand up and dance.

[manic fractal]

I bet that would solve a lot. I know that I’ll manually reboot my Pi and things run swimmingly at first but then it slowly loses functions over time. Never had that problem with TC2’s bot but it is much less complex and feature dense.

[pseudo kestrel]

I may just switch if it's that much more stable

[obsidian storm]

You're not wrong. Your version of miserable is my version of "this is akin to running a marathon"

[prisma saddle]

with someone on your back.

[real cedar]

🤣 yeah. Well look on the way down I just kept happy thoughts like winter coming soon or how absolutely bangin hot the chick is that I've been talking to and so on. Gotta have something to keep the spirits up while dragging someone down a mtn LOL

In my defense I was already 3 beers deep and you get drunk way faster at altitude

[prisma saddle]

the chick is hot without beer goggles right? :).

[real cedar]

Uhh yes but it's a tricky situation. See she's kind of the inlaw to my best friend so I gotta be careful in this triangle 🤣😭

Bash probably knows who my best friend is or at the very least can make a very educated guess LOL

[prisma saddle]

ahh ya. can’t mess that up.

[real cedar]

Nobody ever accused me of good decision making so here I am LMAO

[real cedar]

Would be fucking hilarious if it worked out all the way though. We would go from being accused and asked if we are brother to actual brothers 😂🤣. We laughed about it over beers once. It's not like he doesn't already know what's up

[prisma saddle]

same girl i was talking to you about months ago?

[manic fractal]

It was super light-weight and was the first one that I installed and tried. It was easier for a n00b to understand and use. Then I was lured in by the siren song of more functions in meshing-around. There’s definitely some cool stuff in meshing-around but a lot of it isn’t necessary and I don’t have a use case for a lot of its functions (when am I going to need a volcano warning?). The only reason I still have it up is because I’ve been trying to iron out all of the bugs and make it work. Also, it seemed like that was the way people were heading. We could easily run parallel bot networks though and people could just use the one they prefer or can reach. Vote with your pocketbook as it were. They both have comparable messaging systems.

[tardy dagger]

Haha… I have 4 brothers and a friend from high school was like a 5th to a few of us for a while. Then he eventually married my cousin, so actually part of the family now.

[real cedar]

ROFL nah. That one was out of the picture once I realized current one was available .. went from back burner to pursuit so fast it wasn't fair

[real cedar]

Hah well you know it's how things used to roll. You met people through family and friends

[real cedar]

You know it would be cool if that bot and meshing around could actually interface with each other on the BBS level

[reef ridge]

Good info, thanks! I think I'd prefer something more stable that does its job without headaches, so I guess I'll go with TC2-BBS. Especially because I want it up ASAP and don't want to spend too much time ironing out kinks. 😅

[real cedar]

You would be incompatible with what we're building then

We already chose meshing around BBS and that's on Harrison and DC 801

We would have to go rebuild some nodes if you chose that for fpr

It's not like it's not doable. It's just annoying 😂

I'm pretty sure that would mean that malice has to make another trip

[reef ridge]

Nope, like I said, I want minimal headache, and that doesn't sound like minimal headache!

So Meshing around it is.

[real cedar]

😂 fair enough. I was willing to go figure it out if you were adamant but that works for me too

But like I said, I really wish the both of them could actually interoperate. It would be nice

I mean how many different ways can you make a BBS right

Famous last words

[reef ridge]

It would be definitely be cool to get some collaboration on that front, the BBS thing is neat. I didn't know about it until I got here, the concept runs deep.

[real cedar]

uhhh oh I said the magic words

[broken turret]

Unfortunately not. Meshtastic hardware generally doesn't have a precise enough clock, and cannot be guaranteed to have a GPS to make up for that lack.

[real cedar]

So it uses relative time across the board. I got a weird question then. Why do nodes with GPS have much more regular telemetry updates

as in

air quality and stuff

Just trying to understand what we are seeing is all haha

[broken turret]

It doesn't even use relative time. It just uses random delays, weighted by received SNR. Nodes will learn the (approximate) clock time from other nodes that do have an RTC or GPS, but that info isn't used in routing at all.

Re why you're seeing more frequent telemetry updates for GPS nodes - I have no idea sorry. As far as I know there's nothing in the code that should have this effect.

GPS nodes can have more frequent position updates though, if they have smart location enabled.

[real cedar]

maybe its just an artitfact haha no worries and huh.. you know I wonder if that could be a port num someone makes. Exchanging accurate time across a network. Wonder if that would be possible. I guess youd have to know the delay of each hop to compensate in an NTP like manner

[broken turret]

The mesh isn't a suitable transport for millisecond-accurate time sync unfortunately. It's too variable. NTP logic doesn't work over it.

Best you can do is "the time will be within a few seconds of X"

For most purposes, the latter is actually good enough though 🙂

[real cedar]

fair enough. So even when a node is gps disciplined the time is only useful for time stamps on the actual device? like in the logs?

[broken turret]

Also on timestamped packets. But yes, that's broadly correct.

Other nodes can also learn the approximate time by observing the timestamp in packets sent from a GPS node.

[real cedar]

Ahh so the more gps nodes there are the closer everything gets within a few seconds of X?

[broken turret]

Nope. It's not that complex lol - it's just a simple "ooh, that's a timestamp, imma use that". Even having just one GPS node on the mesh is enough.

[real cedar]

shiiit then we all good here. Plenty of nodes have gps haha

[broken turret]

It's the rebroadcasting delays that will ultimately determine how close any given node gets to the actual time.

(and any delays caused by chutil congestion)

[real cedar]

And the more routers the greater the delay for the average client?

[broken turret]

Routers are one reason for delays. They aren't the only one.

But yes, every hop adds some delay, every time a packet is left in the TX queue because the node is still receiving, every time a RL delays a packet due to overheard rebroadcast, every SNR-based delay that gets added, etc etc.

And because none of that is consistently measurable or predictable - it varies a lot in a real-world meshtastic network - you can't control for it, and therefore as a result you can't accurately set node B's clock by communicating with node A.

[real cedar]

That checks out and makes total sense yeah

Well so much for that moonshot hahaha

[broken turret]

If you're wanting more reliability, I am fairly close to pushing a PR for this: https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/compare/develop...erayd:meshtastic-firmware:wip-replay?expand=1

Should get the likelihood that a missed packet will not be noticed & fixed to under 1%.

[real cedar]

SWEET.. @obsidian storm would love this

it literally might fix is main complaint

consistent message delivery

[broken turret]

That is the whole point of this feature. It's basically a really lightweight zero-hop proactive store & forward, designed to ensure transport reliability without adding excessive overhead. Typical on-air overhead is 18 bits per packet plus any replays that are needed.

I figure given that (other than DMs) the only thing a client knows is "delivered to the mesh", the onus is on high site operators to ensure that this is synonymous with "delivered to the entire mesh".

Will be looking for testers at some point this week, if you guys are keen.

Expect bugs

It's a nearly 1300-line feature, so...

[real cedar]

I can definitely see that is the goal reading the code changes in the PR. I freaking love this.. uhmm I think some of us might be able to test. Bash.. littleton you all down?

i can put the firmware on jovialis when released

and see if it has more reliable message keeping

[broken turret]

Note it is NOT ready in its current state yet. Don't try to run it until there's an actual PR.

(expecting that this week sometime)

[real cedar]

We probably wouldnt be down to put it on our routers except maybe lake mountain just because LOL its a lot of work to climb a 9-11 thousand foot peak to go update firmware haha

[broken turret]

Yeah don't do that lol. Test it on stuff you can easily get at.

Especially given it's on top of 2.7, which doesn't even have a beta release yet.

[prisma saddle]

i’m up for it!

[real cedar]

I have one router late I can easily get to but Id need to upgrade via bluetooth so yeah whenever there is a PR and artifact for the build id be pretty game to convert Aurora Ceresia Router Late to that

to help test

Its sitting on the hill near the weber state campus

about half a mile from my place

[prisma saddle]

yup happy to change over any of mine. and families over.

whenever.

[real cedar]

Yeah F51 would def benefit from this we will test anything you need 😂

[obsidian storm]

I can put it on lake mountain and we can test quite a lot with that.

Considering we have remote access to that really tall router

[real cedar]

Plus C6C is the router late that can see it directly. That would be amazing. Lake mtn and it would be able to guarantee message delivery north and south

I'm expecting some increase in ch util as a result

At least early days

[broken turret]

There will definitely be some increase in chutil. What modem preset are you guys running currently?

And what's a typical high-site chutil?

[real cedar]

Currently LongFast. With the expectation we move to short fast before winter

I'll pull the long-term average channel utilization from C6C right now

16.1%

100+ active nodes

[broken turret]

That is surprisingly reasonable chutil for LF

[real cedar]

Well placed routers
Except 1 😂

[broken turret]

I do need to implement some preset-based limits I think. At the mo the tunables are all set fairly aggressively for testing on SF.

[real cedar]

You know, honestly, it would be very interesting to see what that would do to a long, fast Network. I'm guessing it wouldn't be as reliable because it's expecting a shorter window when it has way more window available to it on long fast

[broken turret]

You don't want it dumping e.g. 50 packets of replay all at once. To be fair, you should never end up in a situation where that would happen... but if it did, it would certainly tie things up a bit.

[broken turret]

It shouldn't impact reliability due to that. Biggest issue I can see is if there are a ton of replays queued up, but not enough time to actually TX them.

Normal operation should see only the occasional packet get replayed, which is fine.

[real cedar]

How to set new long fast ch utilization records with one firmware update 😂

[broken turret]

Yeah I really don't want it doing that lol

One thing I have wondered about is gating it to faster modes only. Would help ensure it doesn't get unleashed on default meshes that are already struggling, plus provide people an incentive to move to a faster mode.

[real cedar]

To be fair, when I was using RA once I spiked our utilization to almost 72% cuz I could see lake mtn directly all of sudden walking up a hill and things went really bad really fast

[broken turret]

What is RA?

[real cedar]

Remote admin

I walked up to where I could see all the routers

[broken turret]

Aah yup. That can be fairly chatty.

[real cedar]

And my tracker t1000e just gave up it spiked so high

Lol

[manic fractal]

It’s not like meshing-around is impossibly difficult. It’s highly configurable. I’m sure you could make it more stable by turning off some of the more esoteric functions like checking in/out nodes. I don’t use that or a bunch of other things. It just depends on what you want your bot to support.

[reef ridge]

It'd be really cool if you could send commands remotely to the computer ota, like SSH over Meshtastic or something.

[broken turret]

IP over meshtastic exists. It truly sucks.

[reef ridge]

I figured as much, why bother with LTE modules if you could, right?

[broken turret]

If you wanted to do something like that, IMO your best bet would actually be to abuse the serial module. But yeah... MT really isn't the right tech to be using for that. Not enough bandwidth, plus high latency.

To put it in perspective... on LONG_FAST, your entire mesh is sharing what is effectively the same throughput as 2-3% of a dialup modem link. (ignoring the obvious terrain complications)

[obsidian storm]

Look into WiFi HaLow
https://www.seeedstudio.com/blog/2025/03/06/two-new-wi-fi-halow-modules-making-long-range-low-power-wi-fi-accessible/

It's also in 902-928 MHz,

https://youtu.be/ofR7GFNZzJY

[reef ridge]

Yeah, I was thinking about some janky workaround using the serial port to send text commands.

[tardy dagger]

Not saying that this is a good idea, but if the aim was to perform common functions, perhaps with input variables, a script name with an input variable or 2 could perform quite a lot (depending what the script is) with very little needing to be sent

[reef ridge]

Yes, if I had a predefined script to do something specific that could work, but I was thinking about being able to reconfigure the BBS on the fly.

[reef ridge]

Really cool! MPCIE module in a Nebra would be great if we could get something up on Mnt Ogden with shack power, like you've got on Lake.

[obsidian storm]

Heh. You're thinking a long the same lines. I've already got some test hardware for this exact thing

[real cedar]

Tbf IP sucks in general

But it's the best we got for now

[reef ridge]

I wonder how much you could do with those HaLow wifi chips. Some type of local intranet with solar relays on the mountains?

[haughty moon]

What devices did you go with? I want to give HaLow a try

[obsidian storm]

• https://www.seeedstudio.com/Wio-WM6180-Wi-Fi-HaLow-mini-PCIe-Module-p-6394.html

• https://www.seeedstudio.com/WM1302-Pi-Hat-p-4897.html

• and an rpi4

[real cedar]

Man I got the DOMS today

😂

[prisma saddle]

need more bananas?

[real cedar]

Phaha no amount of potassium will do anything to this. Just gonna hit some spots with the deep tissue massager

Crack that lactic acid out of there 😆

[real cedar]

Buddies all good. Minor roll. Will heal very quickly

[mighty pike]

for solar and battery powered devices, do I want to enable power saving mode in the settings?

as in, I do wish to save power, but I don't want to lose messages. I'm not sure if it wakes up when there's lora activity

[obsidian storm]

no.

just spec it so that's not an issue.

[mighty pike]

ah I see

shortly I'll learn if my panel is up to it. going to put my rakwireless on my roof

[prisma saddle]

good to hear.

[prisma saddle]

which panel you using? or how many watts?

[mighty pike]

6W https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09JFYPDN

[prisma saddle]

eh link dead.

[mighty pike]

https://www.amazon.com/FlexEnergy-High-Performance-Monocrystalline-Waterproof-Suitable/dp/B09JFYPDNC oops

[leaden crow]

6W is more than enough. I've had a RAK node with ~3W panel and it stayed basically fully charged even over winter. For comparison, the WisMesh Repeater Mini panel is <1W.

[mighty pike]

nice

[leaden crow]

If you haven't bought the panel already, I would get the soshine instead. It is widely used in this community and you've got a ton of good choices for 3D printed mounts.

[mighty pike]

wtf why'd I get a notification that a random node, Ollie Tabooger, is advertising my key. does that just mean longfast's AQ== key?

[prisma saddle]

yup. see that often. even saying the node im connected to has done it.

I just ignore it unless its talking about private channels

[mighty pike]

I hope it works! it's called FoxR or FoxRoof

[prisma saddle]

looks good look at that direct LOS nice!

[brazen spindle]

is it weird that I can get traceroutes from several nodes but sending messages to the longfast channel error out at max retransmission reached?

[prisma saddle]

what is your hop count settings and where are you located again?

[brazen spindle]

also new antenna for the echo is fantastic compared to stock, dunno why I waited

[brazen spindle]

I'm in sandy, just did traceroute to millmesh and got 2 hops out, 4 hops back

[prisma saddle]

hop count settings in lora settings area?

and what is your node name?

[mighty pike]

plz work!

[brazen spindle]

the hop limit? looks like set to 6 which... doesn't sound right. shouldn't it be 4? node is currently meshtastic 472b, havent thought of a good name for it yet, I've had it for months

[prisma saddle]

I saw it and saw a reply. and sent one as well

[mighty pike]

crap I don't see anyone's reply. but interesting you saw it!

[prisma saddle]

you have any routers on the list yet?

[brazen spindle]

I saw and sent reply to your roof test as well, but mine says it didn't get acknowledged

[prisma saddle]

what routers do you have on the node list?

[mighty pike]

hmm I have a bunch of nodes on it, can I filter by router?

I have kr1p, and solar:3

and that's all right now

[brazen spindle]

LPR directly with poor signal, NPR 2 hops. AUR, POTM and lake mountain are in there too but haven't seen for awhile

[mighty pike]

POTM and Lake Mountian are essential for my area, I think. Lehi

[brazen spindle]

my node is t-echo inside motorcycle seat, outside. not the greatest height or LOS but I thought it was more common to have failed traceroutes with working chat, not the other way around. I'm testing the viability of putting a node on the bike semi permanently. The results so far seem odd

[prisma saddle]

ok wait till you ahve npr / potm on there then try sending messages

[mighty pike]

will do! I just got someone in sandy

[prisma saddle]

ya im making one for the roof of my truck. will see how that goes.

[mighty pike]

if this works I"ll be so happy. the freq 20 network was super unreliable for me. couldn't get up to SLC

[brazen spindle]

was it from "472b"?

[mighty pike]

nope 93dc

[prisma saddle]

yup i see that reply.

[prisma saddle]

ya im not seeing yours.

[brazen spindle]

oh i see that one too

I'll retry it

[prisma saddle]

ok so lehi, ya do you have lake yet? if not hold out for that one

[mighty pike]

ye no lake yet, I'll wait an hour or so

hopefully POTM and lake come back

[prisma saddle]

saw the clearfiled one? @mighty pike

[mighty pike]

if it's full name is "clearfield" not yet

[prisma saddle]

nah it is @manic fractal the psuedo one

once you see lake / potm your list will grow more and should get some real traction at that point

I sent one from TTN / a test tooele one im making did you see anything frrom that?

[mighty pike]

ah thanks

[mighty pike]

nothing yet

but not surprising if I don't have lake

[prisma saddle]

ya. wait it out for sure. .

[brazen spindle]

fwiw I also don't see your message from TTN

[prisma saddle]

kk where were you at again? NPR is not super awsome right now so could be acting up. do you get any trace to potm?

let me grab my roof node tablet ill send some tests from there

[brazen spindle]

looks like no, not sure if it its a being under the seat thing or if it's a nearby obstructions thing.

[prisma saddle]

could be both. try putting it in tree or on top of something

[brazen spindle]

astonishing... looks like the traceroutes that complete tend to go from my little t echo through big cottonwood to wasatch crest 2, from there to AUR and then reply is either directly received or a couple hops

[prisma saddle]

ha ha ya .the direct back is funny

i love it when it does that.. potm direct back to my t1000e that is inside is always fun

[brazen spindle]

so probably yeah a height problem, but it's really funny that the nearby geometry happens to just barely let it travel 12+ miles almost perfectly straight through a valley to what is probably someone's roof node

[mighty pike]

I wish traceroutes would always succeed. I have incredibly difficulty getting them back, like, 5% success rate I'd say, unless the node is super close

[brazen spindle]

not sure what I can do about height on the mobile bike node... but this gives me some confirmation that a roof node at home could be hugely beneficial. since it's in roughly the same direction, but without the whole 12 miles of valley

but for all I know roughly isn't enough and some oddly well placed tree will muck it up

[leaden crow]

What nodes are you trying to traceroute? Also, what hardware specifically are you using? Have you tested your cabling and antenna?
I would guess you should be getting better than 5% back based on your antenna placement,.

[prisma saddle]

saw yours in herriman. you get any replies ?

[brazen spindle]

@prisma saddle oh cool got an aknowledged message out for once. really threading the needle apparently. I just went outside to see what kind of LOS i have with big cottonwood and it's not pretty. theres like 2 thick brick walls that are spaced just right to leave a thin gap that is somewhat aligned with the canyon.

yeah 3 replies including what I'm assuming is yours from herriman. but there's no way I can rely on it like this, as funny as I might find it

[prisma saddle]

yup my roof node.

[leaden crow]

Interesting, this is the window that WC2 sees in the valley.

[brazen spindle]

yeah that seems to align with this, if just barely in red

[leaden crow]

I did a whole bunch of scouting and planning when I placed WC2. WC1 has better coverage in the canyon and should have hopped through NPR. WC2 is a bandaid intended to reach my friend's roof node near daybreak and Lowe if it ever gets placed. I didn't plan for it to hop through AUR, but it ended up with LoS and usually hops through it.

[brazen spindle]

and that just so happens to cross just enough with where im testing mobile node, amazing odds.

[prisma saddle]

Lucky you. 🙂

[reef ridge]

I wonder why they don't. Sometimes I can DM a node consistently and perfectly fine but a traceroute will fail.
Maybe it's just the packet size?

[mighty pike]

a rakwireless wisblock with a larger antenna, and a tbeam wireless with the same antenna, and a seeedstudio t1000e.

the rooftop one is a fairly new install for me. previously I was on freq 20, now on 51 and waiting for nodes to populate

[mighty pike]

ye I don't quite get it. maybe packet size?

I hope we can move to shortfast

[leaden crow]

What specific antenna, adapters, cables are you using?

[obsidian storm]

there's something wrong with your hardware

[leaden crow]

I have always heard this second hand, I'm not going to bother devs for details; traceroutes get deprioritized once channel utilization crosses some threshold. At one point, I got 80-90% of traceroutes back when I ran them for 12 hours from my roof node to one across the valley. I haven't been running them lately because I didn't have anything new I needed to test, and our utilization is slowly creeping up.

[obsidian storm]

Do you have any concerns with some troubleshooting?

I could come by tomorrow for an hour and we can get it figured out.

Sorry. I mean @mighty pike

or you could take it down from the roof and we can meet somewhere and fix it there

and then you can take it back home.

[leaden crow]

If you can bring your antennas and cables to the hackerspace on Thurs., I'll bring my nanovna. Maybe bash is thinking the same.
But yeah, based on your pictures, your roof node should be performing better than it is.

[obsidian storm]

^ From LAKE

I finally got an ack from DMs

[mighty pike]

got message 5 from LAKE!

[obsidian storm]

I think your hardware is borked

[mighty pike]

but it's brand new!

more or less

[obsidian storm]

We should troubleshoot what is wrong.

[leaden crow]

I would test your cables. I've had brand new cables that were bad.

[mighty pike]

it also says ack'd for my two messages to lake

[obsidian storm]

Can you give me a nearby location in DM and I'll go drive by and see if I can talk to lake from there?

[mighty pike]

sure

[obsidian storm]

Here's what I would do.

• Test the location with known good hardware.
• Try connecting the antenna directly to the RAK.
• Swap antennas
• Swap raks

[mighty pike]

test 1 would be most instructive. and trying my antenna on known good hardware

[leaden crow]

If you've got a multimeter, test the continuity on all your cables and adapters.

[obsidian storm]

Leave your ladder up on your roof 😄

We might want to take the known good hardware up there

[mighty pike]

aaa

[mighty pike]

oh also how'd you send a message originating from LAKE remotely?

[leaden crow]

He can SSH to it. They have internet at the Lake Mountian shack.

[mighty pike]

oo cool

[prisma saddle]

the awesomeness of the nebra.

[prisma saddle]

got a hold of rob! aka kr1p. he should be joining the channel sometime soon. @obsidian storm @real cedar

[real cedar]

Yay!!!!

[prisma saddle]

Over here rob @ivory canyon

[obsidian storm]

awesome. I know he was in the other discord at one point

[prisma saddle]

looks like he is waiting on the discord first message timer.

should be soon.

[ivory canyon]

Had to wait the 10 minute penalty before it would allow me to send anything in the channel... New user thing, I guess.

[prisma saddle]

Hazaah!

[obsidian storm]

OK great. First question. What's your preferred form of contact? 😄 You can DM me if you don't want it public (this is a very public discord)

[ivory canyon]

I'm good with any method you can reach me at.

[prisma saddle]

i googled him. haha.

stalker . 🙂

[obsidian storm]

Facebook, email, APRS, phone, discord, something? 😄

[ivory canyon]

I have a very slim online presence...

[obsidian storm]

I'm going to note it down in our private router documentation.

Basically a way to contact people who put up routers if we're having issues with the router

[ivory canyon]

Sounds reasonable.

[obsidian storm]

I sent you a dm, don't post those contact details here

[ivory canyon]

My radio call sign probably gives more info about Mr than most anything else.

[prisma saddle]

yup that’s how i found ya 🙂

[ivory canyon]

You a ham?

[obsidian storm]

there are a few, yes.

I am one, but not super active

[ivory canyon]

Cool.

Is that bash, as in #!/bin/bash?

[obsidian storm]

heh, yes.

Something is going on with LPR. It's very spotty
It won't complete trace routes, it won't send message acks and it doesn't report firmware versions.
Not great for a router

What's the exact hardware? I'm concerned it's the old chip that has problems

[ivory canyon]

My favorite scripting language (if it can be called as such)!

[obsidian storm]

and won't work with many of the newer meshtastic devices

[ivory canyon]

It's not responding to my pings here on the local network either. I think its hung up.

Its a T-beam.

[obsidian storm]

yeah, which version?

SX1278, is what I'm concerned about

The older t-beams have that chip

and it's hot garbage

[ivory canyon]

Not sure. I will check once I get comms back with it.

[obsidian storm]

How would you feel about upgrading it to a better meshtastic device?

I would love to give you the hardware if you don't already have it.

[ivory canyon]

I know it took a successful firmware upgrade about 3 weeks ago.

What us the best, most robust hardware these days?

I don't mind purchasing it.

[obsidian storm]

There's a few options. The RAK devices are pretty great.
If you have access to 110v, there's some outdoor raspberry pi based devices (nebra) that are really good,
and SEEED has been putting out some really good gear too

[ivory canyon]

I have many raspberry pi boards kicking around here. Maybe I'll look at the Nebra.

[obsidian storm]

Right now, almost all of our routers are built on this gear:
https://store.rokland.com/products/rak-wireless-wisblock-meshtastic-starter-kit

[ivory canyon]

I'll climb up and take it all down this weekend and plan an overhaul.

[obsidian storm]

If you don't want to buy anything, I have about 30 of these kicking around:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/XIAO-nRF52840-Wio-SX1262-Kit-for-Meshtastic-p-6400.html
and I'd love to help upgrade it

(don't forget to DM me some contact details, maybe a phone number?)

[ivory canyon]

I want something that has a functional network stack.

[reef ridge]

Nebras can be had on eBay for 40 bucks. Great enclosure, RasPi CM3, PoE.

[obsidian storm]

So this is the nebra:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/406218059576

You need to buy/build another board to convert that helium miner into meshtastic (about $20-$30)

but after that, they're great.

Here's a short blog about it: https://meshtastic.org/blog/a-major-solution-to-a-miner-problem/

[ivory canyon]

Looks fun!/

[obsidian storm]

The great part about the nebra is we can get a 1W radio onto them

[ivory canyon]

I run 1/2 Watt on my node.

[obsidian storm]

by default the SX1268 only outputs 0.160W

so I'm guessing you have an amplifier?

[ivory canyon]

I use a block amp and a filter.

Yeah.

[obsidian storm]

which filter?

With the nebra boards, we're using an old old cermaic filter

with the RAKs, we're using a gpiolabs filter

[obsidian storm]

What's the goal with the network stack?

[ivory canyon]

For now it's just a lumped element filter but I had planned to replace it with a very selective cavity filter.

I probably still will at some point. But first I need to get the node a bit more stable.

[obsidian storm]

Do you have a good description of where the antenna is located? How high up is it?

[ivory canyon]

The reason for the network stack is the ability to access it quickly and reliably. Nothing worked as fast and reliable as the network method when I was initially setting it up.

[obsidian storm]

We have some folks in westpoint, not too far from you, who can't connect. We're hoping to do some Line Of Sight calculations to see if it's even possible for them or if we'll need to get something back up on the top of the mountains.

[ivory canyon]

I think its a 9 dBi gain omnidirectional about 30 feet up.

[obsidian storm]

We had one on the top of Francis Peak and it was really good until it got fried by lightning

[ivory canyon]

That can happen! 😬

[obsidian storm]

heh. yeah. it happens

Thankfully it's only ever been that node. the other ones have been ok.

I have a node running in the ham shack on Lake MTN and it was getting direct connections to you until yours got all weird.

which is cool because it means 3 hop messages from provo to layton 😄

[ivory canyon]

Haha, yeah. Mine's in lala land lately. 😋

[obsidian storm]

Yeah. It's not very high either, which is pretty important for lora

So the thought is, let's get yours working better, we'll get FPR back up, and then maybe we can get it up much higher or put it into client

Is it on top of a house or a dedicated tower?

[ivory canyon]

It's on a mast on the roof. Nothing special.

[obsidian storm]

It might work well as router_late too 😄

it really comes down to testing once it's stable

[ivory canyon]

I think I have it set to router-late currently.

[obsidian storm]

@leaden crow has some good scripts that we can run for 24hrs and then change the mode type and run it again to compare what it does to the mesh and the util

yes, router_late is great because then it doesn't conflict with the back bone routers

[ivory canyon]

Sounds good. I'll work with it this weekend and see if I can get it working.

[obsidian storm]

The current guidance is:
Ground Level->5000ft = client
5,000->7,000 = router_late
7000+ = router

but regional sections means we should break

since there isn't anything really in the 5000ft+ in that area, yours is great as router_late

as the infrastructure gets built up, maybe then we'll pull it back

[ivory canyon]

Sounds good.

[obsidian storm]

I'd love to see pictures of your setup !

[ivory canyon]

I'll take some pics whan I overhaul it.

[obsidian storm]

Oh, another thing.

Are you using store & forward for something specific?

[ivory canyon]

No.

[obsidian storm]

it is, by far, one of the biggest contributors to the traffic in the ogden area

If you're not using it, maybe turn that off

[ivory canyon]

It looked interesting and potentially useful but as the infrastructure grows, I could see it not being as useful.

[obsidian storm]

I think the community is looking to move to BBS for that type of a feature

[ivory canyon]

Rgr.

[quasi surge]

a few BBSes would be ideal for reliable/async delivery

(with replication)

if we had a network, it's easy for people to get messages to a node near them and people on the other side of the mesh/hop-limited can still read them

[ivory canyon]

I'll turn it off when I get it set back up.

[prisma saddle]

what i love about your node is it is connecting to my dad in grantsville. but since its. not fully stable its been hit and miss on his messages and soon. i think if things get fixed working. it will be better for him there. he is the tallest thing there so your hits it nicely.

good timing on bringing it to 51. getting it working will be even more awesome.

[ivory canyon]

That's cool! I had no idea it was hitting Grantsville!

[prisma saddle]

ya we popped it up 2 weekends ago. and yours was what it saw first.

before i even had it on the roof.

so i knew it was going to be golden.

so until we get more placed there like stansberry. yours is the key to tooele and grants.

[ivory canyon]

I might have some time Friday to work on it. I'm trying to take Friday off from work so I can get some more riding in before the cold weather sets in. But afterwards I could probably make time for it. Guess it depends on how long of a ride I do! 😋

[prisma saddle]

nice what you riding?

i am going to be in tooele tomorrow training they ham club on meshtastic. so this will be good news for them too.

i like bash am happy to help with parts etc too. lots of resources here :).

[ivory canyon]

I just bought a superbike... I know, pretty crazy! But I've been wanting one for years!

[prisma saddle]

oh nice! that had to be crazy fast.

[ivory canyon]

Yeah. Its at the top of the heap!

I'm sure some bikes can beat it. But not many. Luckily I don't ride it that way. I have a wife and kids that I need to come home to!

[prisma saddle]

haha for sure. def understand that. cool stuff.

[ivory canyon]

Alright, I'm off to bed now. Catch up later...

[prisma saddle]

Thanks again for jumping on. between this one and the utah mesh discord. lots enjoy the mesh and all.

[ivory canyon]

👍

[storm onyx]

That was me on Sunday up inspiration point learning how to do 2m SSB. Brought the T-echo along. Would be a great spot to place a repeater node but it's heavily visited.

[real cedar]

We tried to contact you on the mesh
Maybe all of us pinging your device caused it to crash 😂

Sorry about that

[prisma saddle]

i got 2 traces out of it this morning. and was able to ping my grantsville node once.. hah. node knew we were talking about it last night? dunno.

[reef ridge]

That was great, I was able to make contact with the rest of the mesh directly from my house with you up there.

[prisma saddle]

dang that is some pinball machine of a trace .

[obsidian storm]

If you want to hike up there, I have the perfect node

[reef ridge]

Lol, the birdhouse node. It's a good idea, seems a lot of motorists love to go up there.

[vital hemlock]

I also like the bat house approach

Less folks willing to put there face up next to it

[reef ridge]

Slap it on some unsuspecting tree facing the valley and away from the trail, no one will ever know.

[dawn rock]

Too much shade I bet under a tree

[reef ridge]

People put nodes under trees all the time, I'm sure you just have to orient the solar panels optimally.

[real cedar]

No that's not true at all. If it's a pine tree and it has a sizable trunk then part of the tree is going to be in sunlight most of the day

You just have to be under the point in which the canopy shades the tree

There's a balance to strike though because you want to be high enough that snow isn't going to just pile into the birdhouse

😆

[dawn rock]

Huh neat

[solemn sedge]

That birdhouse node is 👌

[obsidian storm]

This ebay seller accepted $35 for nebra nodes!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/406218059576

[quasi surge]

Huh, I thought everyone did FM/digital voice on 2m

Make any contacts?

[prisma saddle]

make an offer

button..

ha ha..

[vital hemlock]

Sorry, just realized he said offer

[prisma saddle]

😛

[vital hemlock]

you were too quick

I gave them the $40, but man that's a great deal, either way

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/speedy-delivery-mr-rogers-neighborhood-mr-mcfeely-gif-14457506

[vital hemlock]

I'm moving everything around at home, server wise. I'm going to take down mesh.thebadplace.org for the moment. If I bring it back later I'll let you all know. If they had their docker issues worked out it'd be sooner.

[prisma saddle]

do you need it hosted elsewhere? or need it up in the mean time?

[vital hemlock]

It's a nice-to-have, there are a number of folks running it at home. I'll have it back soon.

[leaden crow]

How many of those have you bought? 😆
I should probably get a couple more at that price.

[prisma saddle]

hmm ive got 3.. need to actually get them setup.

once i get my roof mount moved.. its going there..

other might be mil's house.. and 3rd.. TBD..

[keen glen]

I got my automatic image builder for the nebras to install meshtasticd and meshtastic cli on first boot / network connection and enable SPI.

So now all I have to do to set one up is tweak a hostname, flash the card (the builder can now do this too), pop it into a nebra or other compatible pi and it just starts working.

[prisma saddle]

nice. that is pretty cool. is this a script yo willing to share we could pop it on the site or so. quick setup of a nebra.

[keen glen]

Yeah, I want to make a couple more tweaks. It's a rust app, and it should be able to run on Windows as well, but I haven't tested that.

[vital hemlock]

I might have worked through the docker issues. Someone want to test it for me?

https://mesh.thebadplace.org

[prisma saddle]

loads, but no nodes, unless it it has to learn them all again

[vital hemlock]

it will, if it works

I want the cleanup script and other things working too, but I have to figure out how first

[prisma saddle]

all tabs work. just missing data

[vital hemlock]

I'm going to break it a bit later, I want the database exposed where I can see it

but it's hopeful at least

[vital hemlock]

I got it working the way I wanted. But, the nodes and conversations tabs won’t populate outside my network. I need to sort that out.

[prisma saddle]

@obsidian storm saw this?

seen it in grantsville

[obsidian storm]

I didn't see that response.

I'm testing @mighty pike's location

[leaden crow]

What is max hops set to?
I saw your messages in the valley, but not in NSL

[obsidian storm]

7

I think. I need to check myself. I might have lowered it. But I got Fox fixed up

You should see a bunch of his tests in the public channel

[inner jay]

I've been seeing them

[obsidian storm]

Looks like my hops were set to 5

[real cedar]

Our network is small enough that I severely doubt that if every single node was set to the maximum hop limit... That our channel utilization would really go up all that much

The only thing I think would happen is we would start seeing a lot of duplicate messages

😂

[inner jay]

Might explain why my roof node saw my mobile's message 3 times lol

[real cedar]

Well actually most of the time that comes from the hidden node problem

So because we have strategically placed routers in every location, we do have the problem that not every client can see all the routers on the network

Joao clients in other pockets won't necessarily know that that message has reached its destination

There's actually something erayd is working on. That's going to be really awesome for this and guarantee message delivery without duplication it looks like

It would be really good if we could test that on our router lates whenever it's ready. 😆

[leaden crow]

Yep saw them. What was his problem?

[obsidian storm]

Bad cable

[leaden crow]

Ah, well it's good you found it and it didn't ruin his transceiver. No continuity, or was the center shorted to the braid? I've seen both on Amazon/Aliexpress cables.

[obsidian storm]

I didn't even test. I just swapped it out with another one he had and it worked

[leaden crow]

Nice, easy fix

[obsidian storm]

yeah, quick an easy!

[manic fractal]

I enjoy seeing the data it puts up. Thanks for hosting it.

[vital hemlock]

Thanks @manic fractal . Remember everyone, if you want to see your data on there you have to set “okay to mqtt” 👍

It’s working, some of the menus won’t show data outside my network. I’ll sort that out tonight, not sure why that’s the case. The data is there, I can see it.

Fixed, should be all good now

The update is using the /api path for the other tabs now. I had blocked that because /api/config shows server secrets 🤷‍♂️

Now only the config path is blocked

[ivory canyon]

Re-flashed my T-beam and made a couple of minor changes to its configuration.

It now has the latest stable beta version of meshtastic firmware.

I also disabled the store and forward stuff.

Feel free to run some tests on it/verify its behaving properly.

Also, I think its putting out closer to 1 Watt now.

One other thing... My T-beam is hardware version 1.2 so I think this is the good/more stable version.

[reef ridge]

Thanks for the update. Hopefully a reflash may have shaken out any bugs.

[leaden crow]

I think that is an SX1276. My T-beam 1.2 is.
https://store.rokland.com/collections/lilygo-t-beam-series/products/lilygo-ttgo-meshtastic-t-beam-v1-1-esp32-lora-915-mhz-wireless-module-wifi-gps-neo-6m-with-oled-display-soldered-for-arduino-q349

The SX1276 cannot talk to new LR1110 devices like the T1000E trackers

[ivory canyon]

I also installed an external WiFi antenna so that it connects to my AP more reliably. Yeah, hopefully this later version of firmware will make it more stable.

[leaden crow]

If it is an SX1276. I will give you one of these to replace it:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/Wio-SX1262-with-XIAO-ESP32S3-p-5982.html

[ivory canyon]

It replaces the module that is currently on my T-beam?

[leaden crow]

No, it would replace the whole tbeam. It has an ESP micro and the better transceiver (SX1262)

[ivory canyon]

I need something with a network stack though.

[leaden crow]

It does, it has the same ESP microcontroller, will do wifi

[ivory canyon]

But it looks like one would need to spin a breakout board for the filters, connectors, etc.

[leaden crow]

You don't need a filter. The T-beam doesn't have one. You would use ipex pigtails for your antennas. I can give you those too.

[ivory canyon]

I guess there must be dev boards that could provide some of that as well.

[leaden crow]

If you want a filter, I will make you a cable with one, like this:
#1197577977781821541 message

[ivory canyon]

What sorts of improvements does this newer module provide other than TX/RX performance?

[leaden crow]

The XAIO are tiny, but they have everything you need. You don't need a display on a remove node.

https://store.rokland.com/blogs/news/lorawan-difference-between-sx1262-and-sx1276

[ivory canyon]

I've got an inline SMA filter that works reasonably well. I plan to replace it with a proper cavity filter at some point.

[leaden crow]

Like the GPIO labs filter?
I have an Acasom on one of my nodes. It's definitely nice in noisy environments.

[ivory canyon]

Yeah, the display doesn't even get seen by anyone. Not needed at all except for initial config when Bluetooth code is shown on the display.

[leaden crow]

That Rokland description is actually not great. You get slightly higher broadcast power with the SX1262 (22 dBm vs 20 dBm), really the huge downside with the SX1276 is that it won't talk to LR11110 devices, the Seeed trackers are one of the most common devices now.

[ivory canyon]

I see. Well, I guess I need to plan for an upgrade soon. 😋

[leaden crow]

LMK if you want that Xiao. I bought a couple of them when they were first released just to steal the transceiver and make rpi zero sized hats with them. I only ended up making one of those, so I still have one I'm not going to use for anything.

[ivory canyon]

Thanks! I'll let you know.

[real cedar]

Also for everybody in your device module configuration if you want to configure a time zone the time zone for our area is

MST7MDT,M3.2.0,M11.1.0

[ivory canyon]

By the way, what is your node named?

[real cedar]

I have a couple nodes. You'll find my main node that's always on me is name to c6u Umbriel.. my other node is c6j Aurora jovialis

My two router nodes are Aurora Ceresia C6C and Aurora uranialis router AUR

[leaden crow]

My nodes are named dsr1, dsr2, wc1, wc2, dst1-3...

[real cedar]

Speaking of routers, could you please put your device into client mode

The router I have on the hill can literally see all of Davis and all of Layton just fine

In fact, I have a router late up here higher than anybody in Layton could have even if they had a really tall mast 😂😂😂 .. It's both a blessing and a curse because whenever something happens or whenever channel utilization peaks I usually see it first up here.

I live up close to the mountains here near the base. Very close to the base

[ivory canyon]

Mine fills in some areas that don't get coverage, I've been told. At least until they get the one up on the mountain back online. I moved it from router to router_late.

Mine ties in the Tooele valley, which I wasn't aware of until yesterday.

[leaden crow]

I got your test earlier, so it's definitely improving connectivity up North to SL.

[real cedar]

Well, if you read the documentation on the messtastic official docs they say that a client does the exact same thing so you would still be doing that. You wouldn't be hurting anybody

But what you would be actually doing is benefiting people and that the routers that actually can do the bulk of the heavy lifting would then do it and your client would forward the traffic to them

Right now I'm forced to hop through you even though I don't need to do it

Especially on one of my nodes where I have direct line of sight to Lake Mountain. But when you're in router late mode then I have to hop through you because that's what it chooses to do most of the time

Does that make more sense

The difference isn't that either three of those modes won't rebroadcast it's when they rebroadcast. Client router late and router all rebroadcast messages. It's just router is first in the contention window. Router late has a different contention window and client generally waits for both of those to handle their traffic.

Router late is a little bit more complex. We actually have a contributor here that can talk a lot about it. @broken turret

But anyways those three all do the same thing just at different times

[leaden crow]

@KR1P
What amp are you running? On my traceroute, I got a return hop that went from your node to Lake Mountain. That's pretty huge.

[ivory canyon]

It's a block amp that is putting out about a Watt.

[real cedar]

I get the same massive jump and I don't have an amplified node but it is on a station G2. Which is a 1w device

I think both him and I have one watt devices in our really good mounting spots

Right as I'm ready to test bash is like hang on. I froze my pi after I just upgraded my firmware and did a device reset

The timing of that is BEAUTIFUL 🤣

[leaden crow]

Not an external device, but I would still describe it as amplified since it has an integrated PA. I wish Unit Engineering would build a hat. I think their PA, LNA and design is probably better than the Ebyte. I just don't want a crappy MCU if it's going to be a high power node. Would much rather have meshtasticd

[real cedar]

You know I really wish they would build a station G2 but base it on the nrf-52

I would freaking love that

[broken turret]

This is incorrect. ROUTER goes first, and preempts everything else. Then CLIENT and ROUTER_LATE will have a go, using the same timing rules. If ROUTER_LATE hears anything else rebroadcasting, then it shuts up and defers its own rebroadcast to an even later window, after everything else.

If CLIENT hears anything else rebroadcasting, then that client shuts up, discards the packet, and will never sends it at all.

[leaden crow]

For solar nodes yes, but I bet if they built a hat it would perform better than the ebyte.

[real cedar]

Okay yeah that's a way better explanation and that's preferred where he's actually located. Considering there are much higher elevated devices with much more line of sight

So his device deferring the rebroadcast to those two other devices would be very ideal and still fill in gaps for devices that just can't talk to those other two devices

Which I find to be very unlikely considering where one of them is located and how much it can see

😆

[broken turret]

@real cedar Would a blog post on this be useful? I feel like it's something you end up having to explain to people a lot in here, and that way you would have an authoritative resource to point people to.

[real cedar]

Dude I would love a blog post. Oh my God you would be a lifesaver

Just having something that explains all of that so that I can just be like. Hey here's this URL. Go read it would be amazing

[broken turret]

Yup. CLIENT is good to help devices that can hear well, but can't TX strongly enough to be heard (e.g. the T1000-E in the middle of CBD office towers).

If you need the device to be guaranteed to relay traffic in all circumstances, but don't want it to preempt, then ROUTER_LATE is the correct choice. Not intended for rooftop nodes etc though, because it adds to chutil load.

There is a new role coming (CLIENT_BASE) that is intended for rooftop nodes, and situations where you only want guaranteed forwarding for packets to / from specific nominated other nodes.

[broken turret]

I will write you one, then. "Demystifying ROUTER_LATE" is now on my todo list.

[real cedar]

And that's what I'm trying to point it out here. And I do appreciate you making the client base role. That's freaking awesome

His node is in a very good spot. It's on a rooftop very high up in Layton parkway, but the C6C node and aur node are at least 2,000 ft higher than both of those and have a very clear vantage point with equally good rx/TX.

When we do get that new role I would love it if he went to client base because I have a very strong signal from him.. It would be a very ideal role for his device and it would probably really help the reliability in the Davis county area

Granted that's on my device that has a 10db antenna on it 🤣

But I still get 3 DB down to Layton parkway with many many things in the way. And that's pretty fucking awesome which means he has a very solid amplifier on it

Haha

[real cedar]

That would be awesome and honestly maybe if you can talk about client base.. and some of those things coming out or maybe don't.. probably wait until that's tested 🤣

[ivory canyon]

Its been changed to, "Layton Parkway Node" and its just a client now.

[broken turret]

I can talk about CLIENT_BASE too. Will probably just mention it in passing though; that one really deserves its own blog post.

[ivory canyon]

I had hoped that being a router would improve connectivity for this area but if client mode is better then that's what it'll be configured to.

[obsidian storm]

@ivory canyon We'll do some traceroute testing and see if that helped or harmed the network

is it super difficult to switch it back?

@leaden crow do you think you could get that script running?

[leaden crow]

sure, I'll run it overnight

[obsidian storm]

cool, then we can switch it back to router after it's done and then compare

[real cedar]

Sadly, it's a mesh Network and not an infrastructure mode Network. So as much as router might seem very lucrative most of the time, it actually harms more than it does. Good. We're finding out that minimizing routers as much as possible and just having really strategic ones works a ton better with a lot of clients in the valley. The only suck ass thing is we have to climb mountains to go put it up there

😂

[ivory canyon]

Its easy enough to change settings. I can access it over the network from anywhere.

[real cedar]

At the end of the day though, don't feel bad. Your device and client mode is still helping every single other person

Client is the kitchen sink 99% mode that is just a workhorse

[ivory canyon]

👍

[ivory canyon]

Let me know when you want to test router mode on it.

For now, I'll assume client mode is best for my node but I would be curious to see what your findings are.

[real cedar]

Yeah that will actually be really good data to collect because we have neighbor info being collected on @vital hemlock server. In fact, if he could give you all the data to connect your node up in that way so that you could collect your neighbor info and send it to his server.. since your node is network connected... That would be awesome. It makes us collect a map but it also gives us a good amount of data as to who's connecting through who.

And then we could actually get some data to see. Would you being router late versus a client help or detriment the network

That would be an awesome case study to just put on the website as a example of hey. We have data on why this may or may not be a good idea and you know what. I could end up being totally wrong and we could just all get proved wrong and it turns out your device as a RL really does help vs being a client and if we get that data I'm all for it.. 😆

[ivory canyon]

Its all about testing and experimenting. 😋

Let me know what to set up and how to get the data to where it needs to go. I have configured a MQTT server before and used it to tie geographically separated meshes together in the past.

Not the same thing, I know. But some of the same methods being used...

Anyway, I can set up some custom configurations to test stuff. 😋

[broken turret]

@real cedar Anything else you want to see added to this post? https://github.com/meshtastic/meshtastic/pull/2030

[acoustic mason]

Good morning all. We set up a new solar node at the north end of Utah Valley. It has a clear and unobstructed view of the entire valley. The node is "MEC UV North Base" and is a RAK module and has a 5dBi antenna. (one of these: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1795573484/peakmesh-magnet-climber-solar-meshtastic)

It is currently set up as client but we're wondering if it should be set up as a router or router_late. Any opinions? The reason is that there aren't many nodes in Utah county yet.

View from the node location.

[real cedar]

Not at all you covered it extremely thoroughly.. I appreciate that

[real cedar]

Please do not set it up as a router or a router late. A client is just fine

Are you on 51?

https://freq51.net/

There is a router on lake mountain if your down south

It should see lake mountain there based on the picture. @obsidian storm runs it. I would coordinate any issues with him

@acoustic mason

[prisma saddle]

I am not seeing it on fs20 or 51. What freq slot are you setup on?

[acoustic mason]

It's on 51. I have not seen Lake Mountain rounter on my node list for at least three weeks. Is it still alive?

[acoustic mason]

It's on 51 but I think I set it up to only broadcast node info every few hours.

[prisma saddle]

Ah ok. Ya i have not seen it yet. what is your hop count at also?

and general area? is this like alpine/AF ?

[acoustic mason]

Hop count is set to 7. It's east of Thanksgiving point about 1.5 miles. SE of Adobe about 1 mile.

[prisma saddle]

Ah i see. its on this social climb building?

so prob too low for Potm, might see it. but ya should be lake for sure.

[acoustic mason]

Yes. I and a few other Meshstastic users work for ADI in that building.

I run the engierring QA department at we're on the third floor.

[prisma saddle]

Very cool. lets have you try sending a message on longfast.

when you have some time

[acoustic mason]

I'll do that once I get into the office. It's set up as unmessagable at the moment and I don't use if to send messages either. It's really meant as a relay/repeater for the valley.

[prisma saddle]

ok cool, if messaging is left on, it could be used to send test messages for signal tests as well. But ya. cool eager to see how it works

[acoustic mason]

OK, I'm headed into the office in a bit. I had a remote meeting this morning so I worked abit from home.

[obsidian storm]

Could you DM me a location of the node?

Or post it here

[obsidian storm]

LAKE mountain is very active, we were just playing with someone in Lehi over it yesterday

This node is a perfect candidate for client_base

[prisma saddle]

Weird, i dont see it yet.

[obsidian storm]

You should set the short name to something cool

[prisma saddle]

hmm Must be my amazing roof node placement.. 🙁

[inner jay]

Im seeing the test pings in sandy but I'm in a bad tx zone

[prisma saddle]

saw the message but not in node list yet.

ah there it is...

ug.. i really need to get on my roof this placement is not doing well

and swap to the nebra

[obsidian storm]

https://mesh.thebadplace.org/chat
https://meshview.freq51.net

MEC shows in both sites

[acoustic mason]

Nice.

Mounting location.

[obsidian storm]

You're getting up to SLC just great

[obsidian storm]

Is there a way we can get that above the building?

I'd love to see the signal go east too. East it'll be blocked by the building

[acoustic mason]

Very cool. That's great. I think it's a good placement. Although, it can't see to the north direclty.

I don't have access to the roof, unfortunately.

[prisma saddle]

put t here? lol

[acoustic mason]

It's blocked to the north, It can see E, W, S.

[prisma saddle]

or ya. on top.. darn.

[acoustic mason]

I wish I could! There aren't balconys that I have access to besides this one. There is a perfect one on the SW corner on the 5th floor but that is property of another company.

[obsidian storm]

Heh. I wonder how your landlord would care if we put a long antenna up from your balcony

You're in a good place

[prisma saddle]

other than lake, thats prob the best placed in UC

[obsidian storm]

Not good enough for router_late long-term, but it might be a good candidate for a short-term router_late while we work on building the infra

[leaden crow]

I think this is a consequence of using a private channel for telemetry. The mesh will function correctly, but they either don't appear in node lists or they appear at the bottom with all N/A values.

│ 131 │ POTM Router │ !77272d1f │ POTM │ RAK4631 │ x1TctwkNJnyjm7F2XEobRoRYYZl2SwHLv+FCqnP9fFk= │ ROUTER │ N/A │ N/A │ N/A │ N/A │ N/A │ N/A │ N/A │ N/A │ 0 │ N/A │ N/A

[prisma saddle]

ya i dont get much chatter from them on normal nodes that arent part of the tele channel. like does not hear from it in days

[obsidian storm]

Normally we would want a router_late above 5000ft+

https://freq51.net/advanced-configuration/router-deployment

But where we don't have one right now....

[acoustic mason]

Let me know how you need it configured and I'll set it up. Right now, it's set as client.

[obsidian storm]

How would you feel about putting up a long pole up from your balcony to get above the roof?

[acoustic mason]

I'd feel great. There's no way that building management would allow that. We've had a hard time dealing with them already. I'd love to have access to the roof but I don't have that either.

That's a no-go.

[obsidian storm]

Dang. Ok, what firmware are you running?

[acoustic mason]

v2.77

[obsidian storm]

Sick. Ok, I'll run some tests for about 24 hours in the current mode, then tomorrow let's switch to router_late and we'll compare to see if it makes it better or worse

[acoustic mason]

OK, sounds good.

[reef ridge]

When you do tests what exactly are you testing for? What factors are you considering?

[keen glen]

Lol, I finally got a ping from LAKE with the Nebra Hat

[reef ridge]

That SNR though.

[keen glen]

Signal Bad lol

[reef ridge]

Did you use the filter on your Nebra hat or go through the IPEX?

[keen glen]

I'm using the filter + sma connector right now

[vital hemlock]

I cant get a node info back from 54ef2f2e

meshview wont add it until it gets a node info packet

not sure why it wont reply with one 🤔

someone else on android select it on the list and try an "Exchange user info" for me?

[obsidian storm]

Done

[vital hemlock]

Wait, is it on mqtt already?

[obsidian storm]

What do you mean?

[vital hemlock]

I see it on your 51 meshview, it's replying on the Freq51 channel

that's why I dont see it on LongFast meshview

[obsidian storm]

Soo... Mine is longfast too

[vital hemlock]

Because you're a hacker, I get it. 😉

[obsidian storm]

Yes.....

[vital hemlock]

Do we still need mine, or should I bring it down?

[obsidian storm]

It's good to have both

So we can see if messages are making it to different places

[vital hemlock]

I dont mind leaving it up, but I think I would prefer having both channels too. It'll take some hacking on this docker to make it work

[prisma saddle]

Once i get things settlled in grantsville/tooele. maybe ill setup a meshview there. so we can see whats hitting that..

If thats needed. for troubleshooting that is or w/e.

once pops gets network to his barn..

[acoustic mason]

I may be taking tomorrow off to do a long bike ride from Layton to Orem. If I can't switch it tomorrow, I'll let you know when I can so you can do your tests when it's set up router_late. Most likely, I could come in over the weekend or at the latest, switch it on Monday.

[obsidian storm]

No rush

[acoustic mason]

Cool.

[ivory canyon]

@acoustic mason Your node is showing as 1 hop away from me and I'm in Layton! However, a trace shows 2 or 3 hops. I guess that means sometimes we hear each other direct?!

Or maybe that means one node in between...

Probably the lake Mountain node.

[keen glen]

Probably 1 between, there's a filter on the app that lets you see direct nodes only

[ivory canyon]

Ah, OK. Its probably a hop through Lake Mtn then. Still pretty good!

[prisma saddle]

what do you see in the traceroute?

here is mine lol @acoustic mason

[ivory canyon]

So yeah, Lake Mtn is the 1 hop.

So that means direct is 0 hops.

Now I know. 😋

[inner jay]

How strong are those magnets? I may go with one of those for my unused chimney if it'll hold up well

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/gi-joe-knowing-is-half-the-battle-knowing-battle-gif-25791425

[leaden crow]

I can't speak to his magnets, but I know several people have had luck with these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CYZM164V/?coliid=I27PO4Q6CN7M&th=1

[prisma saddle]

yup thats whats on my car node.. pics coming soon. they are strong magnets.

[acoustic mason]

You show up as 2 hops for me. 1 hop means that it is going through one additional node. zero hops is direct.

[acoustic mason]

Very strong. I have a hard time removing it. LOL There's no way its' coming off on its own.

[inner jay]

Perfect. Think that's my next mesh purchase

[real cedar]

It is a lime well and permanently mounted to a radio building up there with a power source directly wired into the building. So yes, it is very much alive

[real cedar]

Wait someone made a 3d printed car roof node.? Link to files

[prisma saddle]

https://discord.com/channels/867578229534359593/1280301735193350234

[real cedar]

Thanks

[prisma saddle]

full power of ASA for the win

[real cedar]

I'll probably use nylon cuz it's automotive and paint it my cars color. Additionally I will not be using magnets. I will modify it to have two screws that screw into my rear antenna mount. Magnets don't hold well in high heat on dark paint because they demag from personal experience haha but I'm glad some have had a good experience. That and I routinely enjoy exceeding 100 mph on open stretches. Mags aren't gonna like that 😆

But thanks this will be great

I'll use the gizont whip not a rigid antenna as well

Should be able to make the car chassis it's ground plane

Which I mean LOL talk about the kingpin of ground planes

[prisma saddle]

hmmmm now your making me rethink it lol

I dont go 100.. though

[real cedar]

I've got personal engineering experience to back up that they will demagnetize over time in the heat and while they may not permanently demagnetize or demagnetize to the degree where you don't think it's magnetic, it could go low enough to the point where it just flies off the car and I don't want to be responsible for that with my insurance

Screws are cheap and I have an antenna mount so I might as well use it

What I really want to know because I can't tell from the printables page is can I fit two 18650s in there

I'm on mobile at work so I don't really have anything where I can pull in the 3D drawing right now

[prisma saddle]

nope..

[real cedar]

Oh jeez okay I'll make my own then. I don't trust the silver flat cell type lithium batteries in direct sunlight. Those bad boys have burned me before

😂

[real cedar]

Someone uses orca slicer and didn't simp to Bambu.. ABSOLUTELY BASED

[prisma saddle]

pfft.. never!

[real cedar]

A man of taste and culture

[reef ridge]

I was thinking of just adding a little extra volume to this one and slapping a 21700 in it, I don't like the pillows either.

[prisma saddle]

Orca all the way. creality ftw.

[reef ridge]

I've had one burst into flames before on my kitchen table. 😅

[real cedar]

Honestly yeah I would say the same thing. The bamboo is cool for like 30 seconds until you realized. Oh it's really just a k1c and a slightly thicker bed and a couple tweaks here and there.. with a little bit better firmware out of the box which doesn't matter. Anyways cuz if you're any kind of serious 3D printer you're going to go off and use klipper3D. One of my biggest gripes isn't actually with the printer, but rather it's community. A lot of people buy that printer and then they just sit there and print plastic toys forever

But you don't do anything super useful with it

🤣

[keen glen]

If I had $1,700 kicking around, I'd just build a Voron. One day...

[prisma saddle]

lol ya all my halloween/christmas house outdoor decor is 3d printed.

[real cedar]

B-B-B-bub-buh-based

Yes

Vorons are more amazing than any off the shelf printer with all it's possible upgrades COULD EVER be

It's my plan to build one as well but I'm budgeting for a really awesome build

I'm going to go turtle box ams

Automatic cutting, purge and retract

4 filament AMS ideally

Dual print head with dual extruders

[keen glen]

I've got a heavily modified ender 3 with a microswiss running klipper

[real cedar]

And I will be designing it's chamber and components to handle 500 C build plates and 150 C chamber temps.. which is about as high as I believe you can safely design it to handle

I want to be able to anneal in chamber with gcode

[real cedar]

I've got a k1c with a micro swiss flow tech hotend, upgraded direct drive hardened gear extruder, and a diamond nozzle with a chamber heater in the printer

I've learned what I needed to learn on it. It's been a phenomenal printer. No regrets choosing it over Bambu but it's taught be exactly what I wish to have out of a voron 2.4

For those who have 1500 dollars and just want the kit.
https://www.fabreeko.com/products/ldo-voron-v2-4-kit?srsltid=AfmBOorEtIoyFMtMPi5bBpU8N0AOU_SP2-95Zg-J_QcH0ilFZYDsWTLl

Here's the kit

It will absolutely decimate and destroy. Bambu in any 3d printing challenge 😂

[keen glen]

I was looking at the Tridents

[prisma saddle]

yup same.

[real cedar]

Nearly the same printer
https://docs.ldomotors.com/voron/voron-trident

[prisma saddle]

ender 3v2 with DD, dual z, mircosiwss. and fulament bed (waste of money). .

silicon bed level as well

[real cedar]

Personally, one of the things I don't like about it is the bed leveling sensor. A long time ago Eddie sensors weren't all that good, but now Eddie sensors are fantastic and there's no excuse not to use them, so don't use ancient technology like the clicky sensor

Modern Eddie sensors can do a much better job and they can do it extremely quickly

[keen glen]

Fancy with the v2 here 😆

[real cedar]

The cartographer is one of the best Eddy sensors out there

[obsidian storm]

Lake MTN is pretty OP in getting traffic from Utah County up to Layton.

[real cedar]

It used the adxl chip

[obsidian storm]

that's the power of a really high 1W node

[real cedar]

• power of line of sight 😆

🤣

Position > EIRP

[leaden crow]

@ivory canyon
Successful traces: 30
Failed traces: 18
62% Success
Outbound: -4.07dB mean SNR from 28 recorded values
Inbound: -8.36dB mean SNR from 28 recorded values

[real cedar]

Well :/ that's not great

[leaden crow]

Actually that's pretty good for the number of hops he is away from me.
Route traced towards destination:
!eba4d26b --> !8f7bd9af (-16.0dB) --> !73e074fc (-12.75dB) --> !e0d01bcc (-11.75dB)
Route traced back to us:
!e0d01bcc --> !452b53bf (5.25dB) --> !e745fa4d (-9.75dB) --> !8f7bd9af (-17.0dB) --> !09946e36 (-3.0dB) --> !eba4d26b (-11.5dB)

[real cedar]

What are your percentages for aur and POTM when you do the tests on them?

Just for something to compare to

I'm not using NPR cuz you know NPR is borked

😆

[leaden crow]

I'd have to run them. When NPR was working well, I had 90% successes. Usually my connections to AUR and POTM are not direct, so it won't be as high as 90%.

[real cedar]

Ya know this could be a good way to evaluate a node before turning it into infra node.. what's a good baseline success rate for us to consider being good?

Cuz idk 62% seems low to me but I also have a 93% success rate out of 50 traces to AUR from my house

[leaden crow]

I think it's great for testing equipment or settings changes, but you need a before / after to the specific node. I think the variability is too high to have a general baseline.

[real cedar]

Yeah, and I guess things can interrupt the trace route can't it

Like if the firmware throttles?

[leaden crow]

Especially if some required hop is high utilization. I think the most useful thing is the mean SNR values. Like if you get a significant improvement with new antenna or filter. I'd have to dig to find it, but it was a great improvment when I added the Acasom to dsr2.

[obsidian storm]

Can you run traces to Aurora J now?

[leaden crow]

Sure

[obsidian storm]

This will help us know if having it as a router helps getting to Aurora Jovialis (!a2ebc068) better.

Because right now, It's coming straight from LAKE

I'm curious if LAKE will go straight to Aurora Jovialis too

and skip LPR

and if we turn it back on, what'll happen.

those are the two common routes I've seen

when looking at your traceroutes

[prisma saddle]

ah there we go.

[obsidian storm]

Do we have anyone around ogden with a non-roof mounted device that can be left outside for a day but on the ground? (non-tracker because LPR can't talk to those)

after Aurora J, I'm hoping we can use ^ that device for our last test.

then switch LPR to router_late and then retest

[real cedar]

Aurora J is a client

Just so everyone's aware

I'd love to see traces to Aurora C though as it's the northern most and highest router late. I know I can hop directly from it to AUR and Lake when I run trace routes from it on my phone when in Bluetooth range

I'm curious how it's doing on its high perch ... fyi the control tower of Hill AFB can literally see it at eye level with binoculars... That's how high it is

Lol

@leaden crow do you have the script you use to run the trace routes. I'd love to expand on it if it's python and be able to make nearly formatted neighbor charts and trace charts with it

[leaden crow]

It's bash, but it's a 33 line script. It would be trivial to rewrite it in Python.
https://github.com/dagronslayer/meshtastic-bash-scripts/blob/main/mtrl.sh

[real cedar]

Awesome. Yeah I'll probably rewrite it soon.. could use a tester hahah

[obsidian storm]

There's got to be other groups that are doing testing like this out there

To try and stress test and figure out the better configurations

[prisma saddle]

ya there has to be. i know bayme.sh uses medium fast. so im sure they have some things figured out

just from what ive read.. never talked to any of them

[leaden crow]

They are mostly on Medium Slow
https://meshview.bayme.sh/nodelist

[prisma saddle]

Ah right slow. umm.. it can be intermixxed? or the meshview is just able to listen to both?

[obsidian storm]

meshview is just looking at mqtt

[prisma saddle]

ah ok

[obsidian storm]

so multiple devices can send to the same mqtt server

[prisma saddle]

rgr

[prisma saddle]

Intersting..

ya i like this idea https://meshview.bayme.sh/net

just to check connections to see if things are wavering weekly/etc..

[ivory canyon]

Shall I change it back to router_late so you can re-run the test?

[prisma saddle]

I would love to be able to do scheduled messages .. ha ha set my roof and other nodes to do it weekly. just for science..

guess i could witha nebra. crontab etc..

[leaden crow]

The best test for your role is actually tracerouting a client that hops through your node. I'm doing that right now with C6J. Lets wait 12 hours for that to finish before you switch to router_late and I'll run it again.

[ivory canyon]

Rgr!

Let me know when you're ready.

[prisma saddle]

where are we wanting broadcast intervals for node / tele / power / gps now days for client/client mute. and eventually client base? @leaden crow @obsidian storm @real cedar

fine tuning the onboarding / config guides

currently it says " what ever you want"

and if you didnt see this #1197577977781821541 message wonder how much that helps.. for med slow / long fast. and their network

[real cedar]

I put the accurate numbers in the documentation already

For node info and all broadcasts that are related.. clients 21600... Rl 43200.. R .. 86400

Telemetry no more often than 1800

[real cedar]

Neighborinfo 14400 if enabled and on the nodes that need it

Ideally, it really shouldn't be whatever you like because the reality is the developers have said multiple times that increasing any of these intervals really doesn't help, particularly for node info broadcasts

I think a lot of people think just by turning it up they'll somehow magically discover everything faster and that's not true

All you'll do is congest the network for all of us, including yourself. At least that's my understanding from how it's been explained to me

[prisma saddle]

right thas what it is when it was added first off. so felt we need to adjust that 🙂

[real cedar]

Yeah we definitely need to make a point of that. In fact, I would love to find where in the documentation they describe how node info works and stuff because I would love to reference it in our documentation so they know it's not just arbitrary

I know sometimes it can feel arbitrary but a lot of this has been figured out by just looking at the source code, talking to developers and all that kind of stuff

[prisma saddle]

For node info and all broadcasts that are related.. clients 21600... Rl 43200.. R .. 86400
so that would include tele/gps ?

oh i see telle

sorry mised that

[real cedar]

Gps just use the smart algorithm to account for being faster than a reasonable interval and from what I can find, 10 minutes or greater should really be your interval and if the node starts moving to the point where it actually needs to be more often, then allow the smart broadcast algorithm to handle it

The idea is you broadcast when necessary and you minimize when unnecessary. For example, if you have a stationary node, there's no reason you should even be broadcasting GPS that often, right? But if it's moving in a car at 80 mph, I could totally understand wanting it a little bit more frequent

[prisma saddle]

agreed

[real cedar]

One of the things I really like about the rak12500 is it supports the smart algorithm really well

Non ublox gps devices are far more buggy

But that's the cost of "cheap".. it's enshittified experience 😂

[real cedar]

Telemetry/gps no more often than 1800 is a good start then add the smart broadcast caveat/solution for gps.

30 minute updates is plenty even for weather haha

[prisma saddle]

do you suggest anything diff for t1000e?

[real cedar]

No, it's really just based on the mode

If we made a device specific recommendation all the time.. that would get very confusing for our users

[prisma saddle]

true.

[manic fractal]

The meshing-around bot can be set to do announcements and messages on a schedule.

[broken turret]

@real cedar That blog post wil be published after the CLIENT_BASE role lands in an alpha release. So imminent, but not quite yet.

Rationale is that because it talks about CLIENT_BASE a bit, it's important to get the ducks in a row on that first. CLIENT_BASE will land in the other docs at the same time.

[prisma saddle]

right. thanks.

[manic fractal]

Sure. It might not be exactly what you’re looking for but it does a decent job of putting out scheduled messages and there’s some pretty good granularity on when you want it to broadcast.

[prisma saddle]

cool. us i’ll have to get my nebra up. maybe next week. starting to do halloween decor. so ladder will be out.

[leaden crow]

C6J
Successful traces: 17
Failed traces: 31
35% Success
Outbound: -1.47dB mean SNR from 17 recorded values
Inbound: -.77dB mean SNR from 17 recorded values

[leaden crow]

@ivory canyon if you switch to router-late, I will run it again

[obsidian storm]

I need the nicest filter we can reasonably get for a 1W nebra radio.
Any suggestions ?
I'm going to try to tackle farnsworth peak with a 1W nebra. with @solemn sedge
A 1W node up there would change the experience for SLC, Davis, Weber, and Tooele county. It would be night and day.

@leaden crow you've used the acasom, right?

[leaden crow]

If you want to go down the rabbit hole of cavity filters, search nullrouten post history. A bunch of the stuff he has researched is expensive or unavailable. The Acasom is not the best, but it is reasonably priced and available. Because it won't fit in a Nebra, I would get it with N-connectors and just mount it outside

[obsidian storm]

I'll probably mount it in a plastic box.

I think @real cedar might have one around that was intended for NPR

[obsidian storm]

Who's post history?

Ah, I see.

[leaden crow]

#antennas message

He has fit some cavity filters in Nebra boxes, but I think only by gutting the OG hardware. The Nebra really is a good deal just for the enclosure alone.

The cavity filters should be waterproof and OK mounted outside an enclosure. They also give you lightning protection.

"Furthermore, RF Cavity Filter provides the best protection from lightning strikes (50 kVA or double of typical lightning arrestors), and if designed correctly they come for free with a proper RF Cavity Filter design."

[real cedar]

I couldn't tell ya what the best filter is. I'd go with what the community info and consensus says out there

[real cedar]

I feel bad 🤣 I unplugged it yesterday and only plugged it back in around 3 am

My bad

That SNR is strong though

Very strong