Do you guys consider Shiver to be nonbinary

[modern delta]

Despite her canonically not being nonbinary

[old current]

It's only the US localization that says they're female, so idk

[night harbor]

No

She doesn't look that way to me

[keen hazel]

Wait wait wait. This is an NOA guy, and as all splatoon lore nerds know, NOA (Nintendo of America) generally plays fast and loose with the games canon. Also, this guy was apparently part of teams that straightwashed previous nintendo games’s English translations. What I’m saying is, is it’s still on the table! And it’s not like NOA isn’t still straight washing stuff, they ripped nearly every line alluding to pearl and marina being together (which if you didn’t know is near 100% canon now) from splatoon 2 and the splatoon base website. It’s definitely still possible that shiver is NB. The thing on their chest, that’s this kind of binder that also somewhat alludes to her design motif and such. Also also, shivers pronouns in jp are generally female pronouns, but apparently pronouns in Japanese carry less gendered connotations, as well as the pronouns themselves also occasionally being used by males. Those specific pronouns probably more allude to her design motif and other more complex Japanese language things I, being a stupid American, don’t understand
-thing I saw on Reddit

Make of this what you will

[potent pecan]

gender does not have a look, but you are not wrong. Nintendo did confirm Shiver is female

https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/24/23318377/splatoon-3-shiver-gender-deep-cut-nonbinary-female-inclusivity-nintendo#:~:text=So we asked Nate Bihldorff,that Shiver identifies as female.

[lusty spire]

My take on it is you can headcanon her as nonbinary (which, also, I’m sure this wasn’t their intention but nb people that use she/her pronouns do exist…) and people shouldn’t get pissy about it if you do

Personally I’m interested to see some translations on JP content to see if there’s any insight there. I take Nintendo JP’s words with more weight than NA’s, since they’re the ones that actually made the game

And if it turns out Shiver’s female in the JP version? Great! People can still headcanon her as nb

[night harbor]

Unfortunately this is the Splatoon community

People can and will get pissy over pointless crap

[keen hazel]

“shiver uses uchi, which is heavily associated with women from kansai region, but men occasionally use it, and in shivers case she may just be using it to emphasize her kyoto-ness”

[keen hazel]

@lusty spire ^

[potent pecan]

no one is getting pissy, what was the point of saying that?

[night harbor]

People have in the past

I've witnessed it

[potent pecan]

well why bring it up now?

[night harbor]

Jonny did not me

[potent pecan]

where?

oh

well I've seen more people mad at the idea of her being non binary anyway

[lusty spire]

I’m just saying people should be chill about it if people post art of shiver with an nb flag or whatever. Artists aren’t nintendo.

[night harbor]

They should shouldn't they

[potent pecan]

honestly I think it is kind of wrong to give characters gender, because that's what causes a lot of issues outside of gaming anyway.

I'm not gonna take the time out of my day to yell at someone over it but it's kind of annoying

[keen hazel]

Well, representation in media is important

[potent pecan]

but it isn't representation if the character is not what they're saying they are

[keen hazel]

…what

What does that mean

I’m so confused

[night harbor]

Here we go again

[potent pecan]

Like you can't call shiver transgender/non-binary representation if they are cisgender

[potent pecan]

this is a discussion.

[night harbor]

For now

[keen hazel]

I’m saying people are justified for wanting them to be NB

[lusty spire]

Gender has its uses. And again, this is all for fun. If someone hcs shiver as nonbinary, it’s for fun. Yes, NoA said otherwise, but no one’s saying “my headcanon is the truth”. So there’s no need to correct people

I’m sure they’re already aware lol

[keen hazel]

I wish NOJ would say something because I am not inclined to trust NOA on… anything tbh

[potent pecan]

who is noa lol

[lusty spire]

Nintendo of america

[keen hazel]

Nintendo of America

They do shit translations

The English version of the game is consequently not canon

Only the Japanese version is canon

[lusty spire]

I wouldn’t go that far — I actually like quite a lot of their writing, it’s very entertaining — but they take a lot of liberties and punch up dialogue in ways that can occasionally conflict with the story/lore

[keen hazel]

I mean, the translation is objectively shit

[lusty spire]

Which leads to fandom misinterpretations

[night harbor]

Confirmation bias

People only believe what they want to hear

[potent pecan]

the only reason people think she's non binary is because they didn't refer to her at all in the first trailer

not first trailer- when she was shown off the first time

[keen hazel]

cough

And that

[lusty spire]

Nah, I think it’s partially the design + IIRC nintendo’s websites across multiple languages avoided gendered terms for them after the direct in what seemed like a deliberate way

Though I’m unsure if that’s remained consistent post-release

[night harbor]

This applies to anyone that apparently still has the energy to argue over something this stupid

[potent pecan]

why is it only considered an argument because it's a touchy or personal subject? Like right now we are literally just discussing

also I'm pretty sure they use she/her pronouns in story mode anyway

[keen hazel]

Something something NOA

[night harbor]

It always turns into an argument

[keen hazel]

““shiver uses uchi, which is heavily associated with women from kansai region, but men occasionally use it, and in shivers case she may just be using it to emphasize her kyoto-ness””

[night harbor]

Because ppl are stubborn

[potent pecan]

okay but it hasn't, so stop bringing it up

[night harbor]

I'm pretty sure even if JP confirmed shiver to not be NB people would still fight over this crap

[potent pecan]

most likely

[night harbor]

Bc that's how pointless ppl on the internet are

[potent pecan]

I get what you're saying and I honestly agree with you but this post wasn't created to talk crap about people that have previously discussed it lol

[night harbor]

It's gonna end up that way

It's happened ten times before it'll happen again

[potent pecan]

BUT IT HASNNNNTTTT

[night harbor]

It will

[potent pecan]

ih my god

shut up, please

[keen hazel]

Honestly mystic, you’re the one being the most argumentative here

[potent pecan]

LITERALLY

[night harbor]

[bold marsh]

In the splat community pissy 14yr will make up anything to make themselves seem right

[night harbor]

It's still the truth

[potent pecan]

Okay well it's also the truth that my mom snorted cocaine like 7 years ago but I don't bring that up to people randomly when they say they have a mom

[bold marsh]

Mystic is bringing it up because this forum is literally about it

[keen hazel]

What the fuck is even this

[potent pecan]

they're not bringing up the subject though they're quivering because people in the past argued about it

[night harbor]

Yeah

So?

[potent pecan]

🗿

[bold marsh]

The splat community is so toxic

[lusty spire]

This is why the first thing I said was regardless of whatever the true answer is, if someone headcanons them as nb just be cool about it. The question is “do you consider Shiver nb”, it’s a personal thing. Aye carumba

[night harbor]

I'm only pointing out this forum is gonna start a fight

[potent pecan]

you pointed it out like 10 times, which caused an argument

[night harbor]

It takes two to argue

[bold marsh]

Whoever created this forum in the first place made this happen

[night harbor]

I've said what I had to say

[potent pecan]

that's actually a whole psychological thing where people bring their fears up so much it causes them to become reality lol

[bold marsh]

Who

[toxic tundra]

haven't read this thread but anything relating to gender in the splatoon community becomes a total shit show so I'm pretty excited

[night harbor]

See

[potent pecan]

YOU LITERALLY CAUSED THIS LOL

[night harbor]

You didn't have to respond

[bold marsh]

How about both of y’all stop talking

[potent pecan]

I didn't do nothing

[bold marsh]

I don’t care just both of you shut up

[potent pecan]

I was talking about this casually and respectively and they had to butt in lol

[bold marsh]

I literally don’t care

[potent pecan]

fr?

[bold marsh]

Yes

[toxic tundra]

btw, the chest binder thing is literally a sarashi wrap, which is a japanese cultural thing. Thats for the most part all I know about it

[bold marsh]

No one cares about your personal shit

[potent pecan]

who hurt you

[bold marsh]

21

[potent pecan]

wtf is 21

[toxic tundra]

ANNNDD people are arguing what a surprise

[bold marsh]

Can you not tell I’m literally just trolling u and you are falling for it

[potent pecan]

how is telling people to shut up and stop arguing a troll 💀

[keen hazel]

Is this a ping a mod moment yet

[bold marsh]

Pherhaps

Imfao

It always works

I just send this and everyone stops talking

[icy lagoon]

No

[leaden jolt]

nonbinary shiver is the ultimate headcanon ever /hj and thats my take tbh
i think its a fun take on the character and totally headcanon it myself even if nintendo jp says otherwise
would be excited if if was confirmed tho!

[lusty spire]

this is the take ^^^

[placid cedar]

Only Americans care about gender lol

[modern delta]

I mean if you look anywhere else outside of the U.S you will see how wrong you are

[lusty spire]

tell that to my nb EU friends lol

[placid cedar]

Oh right i forgot about EU

[placid cedar]

I play mostly with British people they rarely bring gender to the table.

[lusty spire]

Depends on who you're with, I guess. Identity politics are typically more vocal in the US online but queer people are universal

[placid cedar]

I understand that

And yes that what I meant with usa being very vocal

I have queer friends who don't care either

[icy lagoon]

Shiver is a female

[leaden jolt]

very confident answer /lh /j

[fiery flare]

my take, yeah, i think it's a cool headcanon, and it's only been dismissed by noa and not nintendo as a whole (and they've (noa) erased various lgbtq related things before,) so it could still be a possibility

[leaden jolt]

i will forever be pissed about what nintendo did to vivian from paper mario.. let the lgbt+ exist, nintendo!!

[icy lagoon]

I mean it’s fine if they don’t

[night harbor]

I Have A Theory That Shiver MIGHT Be Female, But Not Biologically So

It's The Eyelashes

On Female Octolings, The Lashes Are On The Bottom Of The Eye

But Shivers Seem To Go Along The Crease

Or Whatever That Part's Called

While You Could Argue That It's Just Genetic, There Are A Few Other Pointers

1. The Lashes Seem To Be Connected Directly To The Eye, Rather Than Being Extensions Of The Masks

2. We've Seen Idols Having These Extra Lashes, And In A Similar Sort Of Area Too

It's Possible They May Be Artificial And A Symbol Of Status

Anyway Blue Tentacles, No Pronouns

[naive yoke]

i consider her female until japan says “uh, shiver is nb wohoo yaya.”

[icy lagoon]

What he said

[naive yoke]

me?

[icy lagoon]

Yes

[lusty spire]

what she said, you mean lol

[naive yoke]

this

[naive yoke]

read what jonny said

[icy lagoon]

Oh ok

[raw basin]

just a note from a non binary person (me)

pronouns don’t equate to gender

plenty of nb folks use he/him or she/her

gender presentation is also not equal to gender

many enbies present masculine or feminine

non binary does not mean androgynous

I don’t have a comment on the shiver situation but wanted to clear up some misunderstandings I saw in the chat

[lusty spire]

True shit ‼️
I said this briefly a ways back. But yeah, 100% — there is no one way to “look nonbinary”, characters can be nb coded but presentation does not = gender, wearing a dress doesn’t make you a girl as much as wearing a suit makes you a guy. Especially true in 3 where Inklings can wear any piece clothing, regardless of gender

[vocal python]

OH FUCK

[restive spoke]

Answer to question: no, but I think it’s funny people care so much

[naive yoke]

very funny

[night harbor]

Ikr

[mental fiber]

This whole discussion is pointless

[night harbor]

100%

[modern delta]

I made this discussion because of how many people got royally pissed at the idea of one Splatoon character maybe being trans

[night harbor]

All this does is give them a space to get mad

[modern delta]

Good

[night harbor]

[modern delta]

I hope they cry like the babies they are

[lusty spire]

common team grub w

[modern delta]

I think I’m getting too upset at that controversy

Like I don’t care if Shiver is no or not it just upsets me that the idea that a character might be lgbt angers so many people

[placid cedar]

I think it goes both ways

You cannot said it one side either cause the other side also cry so the answer is both ways

[naive yoke]

ye

[raw basin]

it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the reasonings for being upset are the same

for lgbt folks, well they rarely get much representation and a lot of media baits/suggests that certain characters may be lgbt only to say "jk lol"

so they tend to get upset or disappointed at the lack of good representation again

on the other hand

many people get upset at the idea that lgbt people would even exist in said media

these people have no lack of representation, almost every character is made to represent them

these two are not the same

it's pretty easy to sit back and say "haha look at all these people caring about this issue" when you have never experienced not being represented in media

[placid cedar]

For what I seen people don't have problem with new LGBT character or well written one.

Hell even straigh character now days sucks

[night harbor]

Same tbh

It's a stupid discussion

[modern delta]

Nah you look up any media that has a minority character in it and you will have man children cry endlessly about it

Not to mention the uptick on book challenges

[placid cedar]

"Media"

Eh

Doesn't mean those man children's are the majority. Louder yes majority no

Majority people stay quiet if they like it they like it if they don't then they don't buy it and I know bunch people that are that way

I'm one of those the only thing I use is discord that it I don't pay attention to the media all they do create bait and make people jump each other like rabid monkeys

Sorry for my lack of grammar English not my main langauge.

[calm adder]

the people that were so vehemently opposed to something as simple and harmless as a character being nonbinary were so exhausting, while the confirmation of shiver being female was a little saddening (as it would have been a really neat bit of representation), i'm glad it at least means i don't have to see narrow-minded dickwads whine about their identity as much anymore

i still like to headcanon them as nonbinary anyway so it's no big deal heha

[night harbor]

Genuinely I'm not on a side, but seeing people so dramatically opposed to either idea that they're willing to fight others to prove it is just childish

[placid cedar]

This is why fan made stuff exist.

[placid cedar]

Indeed

[night harbor]

I see her as a transgender female.

[wintry canyon]

Would have loved it if Nintendo had an official non biney character in such a prominent position, but they're not there yet, haha.

For the brief time where it was uncertain, I'd just assumed (rightly) that they just hadn't had enough time to actually use any pronouns.

[upbeat phoenix]

Do we actually have any confirmation from NOJ?

Because until I see actual confirmation I’m just gonna ignore NOA’s confirmation

Ngl it’s a little suspicious that now of all times people are taking NOA’s word at face value

[naive yoke]

how is that sus

[dusk sail]

Can we all agree that Splatoon 3's character creation is extremely vague? The lack of text means that you are simply making a character strictly off appearance. I would think it's pretty hard to find offense with a game that structures it's character builder this way... but what do I know.

[placid cedar]

Seeing how Japanese people act during bridget being a trans I doubt noj will say anything about shiver

At best I could see shiver in Japan as male cross dresser

[restive rune]

She isn't non binary 😂

There is nobody in the Splatoon world that is Non binary

It's literally impossible

[upbeat phoenix]

Bruh

Gender doesn’t exist anymore, every player character is non binary

[upbeat phoenix]

Suspicious about how many homophobic people there are

[placid cedar]

False the gender body still exist

[placid cedar]

I don't see anyone homophobic in this thread yet.

[naive yoke]

naur i am girl

[placid cedar]

My friend was happy when she thought the character was non binary but after she turn on the game and see the character creation she was disappointed and was saying it all illusion.

[naive yoke]

😟

[placid cedar]

Me I didn't even know the difference until she pointed out.

I wish there were less humanoid future and more look like a fish like the some of the npcs. Hell why harmony race not playable.

[naive yoke]

fr, i wanna be like harmony

so cute

[placid cedar]

I just wanna be a crustaceans or a jelly fish lol

[upbeat phoenix]

Not in this thread, just in general

Not even specifically maliciously homophobic, just heteronormative

[placid cedar]

Oh ok I misunderstant then sorry

[gray dust]

i consider Shiver a female, im cool with people doing headcannons abt her being non binary as along as they dont force their headcannon to others

[leaden jolt]

definitely
ppl are definitely allowed to think shiver is a girl, i won't stop em!!
but multiple people have come in here and been oddly weird about it

very "girl and only girl no other option" like.. damn its a friendly thread not an argument yk?? just weirds me out

the people who consider shiver female but are chill about it?? go yall tbh!! yall are good

[upbeat phoenix]

And then they're like "gosh stop forcing your headcanon"

[astral gust]

My opinion is that it just wouldn’t make sense for Nintendo to have all female idols and then suddenly have a non binary idol especially other main splatoon characters are female such as agent 3, 4 and 8.

It seems like splatoon characters are more often to be female than something else

I have no problem with people thinking shiver is non binary I just wanted to give my opinion

[leaden jolt]

i think itd be an interesting choice after giving us a male one too
tho i do also appreciate fem rep splatoon gives (not that fem rep doesn't exist! just that seeing a series with a lot isnt as common in my experience) so either way its half a win for me

tho representation does kinda tend to just Appear (theres a translated part of the manga that is like dead obvious marina crushing on pearl, its been posted in #lore i believe??)

either way!! its a fun lil concept

[placid cedar]

Wait there a splatoon manga?

Time for me to read it

One question is the manga is Canon to splatoon lore or just for fun?

[leaden jolt]

from what i know its mostly considered noncanon, i think there might be some bits that use lore or something?? but typically just for fun

and yah theres some

manages to find a snippet of the translated pearlina bit

https://twitter.com/unidotdot/status/1377720736698277889?lang=en

uni (@unidotdot)

Remember when marina drew an gay as manga about how great pearl is in the offical splatoon manga?? I will post the rest in the next retweet

#pearlina #splatoon #splatoon2 #offthehook #coroika

Likes

291

Twitter · Apr 1, 2021, 8:33 PM

yah this haha

[placid cedar]

I see

I guess will look at it since a hurricane past where a I live and have nothing to do. No power no internet no splatoon

I guess manga will do until power and internet get restore

Feel bad that I will miss this splatfest cause nature decide to sent hurricane lol

[dusky mural]

not canon nor fun to read

[clear stone]

Honestly if nintendo says that she is female she is female and everyone has to just deal with it I guess.

Not gonna sit here and force the writers to make her non binary just because you all want her to be

[night harbor]

That's what I'm saying about both sides. Let ppl think what they want, that doesn't change the news

[frozen siren]

shiver is female with she/they pronouns 😈👹‼️‼️

[placid cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/eric-andre-controversial-yet-so-brave-controversial-brave-gif-12046682 well the thing is shiver only female in the American version while in Japan the gender still ambiguous

[upbeat phoenix]

The player characters are all the gender you chose, female just seems to be the default for official stuff. Also Big Man exists, and he’s not a girl. I think.

[lusty spire]

that'd actually be quite funny if big man was a girl

[placid cedar]

I though big man was their producer

[upbeat phoenix]

Nah, Big Man’s an idol

Their producers are random jellyfish

[dusky mural]

For me she/they will remain non binary

[clear stone]

I am the troll, the bisexual troll

[placid cedar]

Lol

[night harbor]

Big woman

[naive yoke]

^

mystic i love you platonically because ur smart

[night harbor]

It's called common sense
Which unfortunately isn't common

[naive yoke]

why i love u /p

cuz

ur

one of the

people

that

have common sense

[night harbor]

Thank you

[naive yoke]

juiced up in brain

no problem

[tawny flint]

See. My take on it is:

Idgaf what you think of Shiver as, just don't try to make a head canon a fact.

If a company says she's straight, she's straight, don't argue.

And for the argument of them retconning the translation.

"They/them" can be used as a word to refer to someone regardless of gender. It's not just a non-binary way of referring to someone. It can be used in a multitude of ways.

[icy lagoon]

I was called a racist homophobic transphobic Fuckwad for saying Nintendo stated that shiver is not NB

Over 100 people agreed with that person.

I’m still dying to this day.

[gray dust]

damnn

[placid cedar]

Lol

[placid cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/eric-andre-controversial-yet-so-brave-controversial-brave-gif-12046682

Let this thread to die lol

It already run it course

[tawny flint]

I'm sorry. 😭

[placid cedar]

Lol

[true timber]

Why is this trend even a thing? It's getting dry like Popeyes biscuits.

[wintry canyon]

I've heard people say that Japan's used both masc and femme pronouns for Shiver, can anybody that actually knows Japanese confirm or deny?

[true timber]

🤷🏾‍♀️

[wintry canyon]

NOA's been known to localize lgbtq+ stuff out of games, like kirby doesn't use gendered pronouns in Japanese, and the localization for paper mario ttyd un-transed a trans character for western audiences.

[placid cedar]

Isn't Kirby immortal

Why an immortal need a gender

[wintry canyon]

I mean, we don't know if kirby is immortal, but apparently NOA didn't think people would understand a genderless puff as a character so they binary'd kirby into he/him

Which, I don't Japanese well enough to confirm or deny if that's what's going on with Shiver.

[placid cedar]

To me kirby don't have gender

Like it was created by magic or by the stars itself

[narrow umbra]

kirby is a literal reincarnation of god wdym

[tawny flint]

I call Kirby he because of the anime.

[gray dust]

i call kirby a he bc im used to it and its easier for me

[naive yoke]

me too, but i haven’t played any kirby games except for a demo

[dusky mural]

he's canonically a small boy

[wintry canyon]

only in the NOA localization.

Kirby, canonically, in the original Japanese versions is some kind of genderless devourer of worlds.

[dusky mural]

in the european version too.

[wintry canyon]

Yes. It seems most english versions were uncomfortable with not specifically gendering Kirby.

However, in Japan, Kirby is not constrained by binary genders.

For example, Nintendo made some official art for two holidays that are usually gendered: on Valentines day, it's traditional for girls to give presents to boys, and then a few days later Japan celebrates "white day", where boys are supposed to return the favor.

Kirby however, is seen cooking with both groups, indicating that they are beyond mere mortal genders.

Valentine's day art (note how King dedede and the dees are specifically excluded, unlike Kirby)

White day art of Kirby and the boys

People have also asked Sakurai about it and he's directly confirmed Kirby was neither boy nor girl.

Kirby... is Kirby. They're genderless and use he/they depending on region.

[calm adder]

will say about the whole "don't force your headcanons onto other people" argument is that the inverse is also true, and in my experience far more common

i'll see someone online do something as simple as refer to shiver with they/them pronouns and there's always some guy in the comments going "uuhhmmm it's SHE/HER don't you know she's actually a GIRL"

i like to headcanon shiver as nb and refer to them with they/them pronouns, and when i do so i'm not trying to make some grand statement about their canon gender nor am i asking anyone else to do the same, i simply do it because it brings me comfort, i see a lot of my non-binary self in shiver and they've really helped me lately in feeling more confident in my own identity, regardless of what their canon gender may be

so yeah - of course, don't be an asshole and force others to conform to your headcanons, but on the opposite end, don't immediately shut people down just for referring to shiver as being non-binary, we're being completely harmless after all

[outer marsh]

Does the jp version of the full game continue to use gender non specific pronouns for shiver or was that just in that kne Twitter post?

[modern delta]

Yall are still fighting

[night harbor]

All of this

[naive yoke]

slay

[naive yoke]

💀

[ancient jay]

the manga isnt fully stated as canon tho

[leaden jolt]

yah ik i said as much too

[restive rune]

Super wrong

Stop talking nonsense

"they removed the gender option!!!! There is no gender in the Splatoon world!!!'

Also the first option in the customization is literally your gender 😂

[upbeat phoenix]

Imagine getting so upset over a simple joke

[restive rune]

Bro only calls it a joke because he doesn't know what to say

[upbeat phoenix]

Nope, it was already a joke

Hey, fun fact, did you know it’s shockingly easy to tell when someone is mildly homophobic?

Just thought it was a cool fact

[restive rune]

Atleast team fun

[naive yoke]

🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭🤭😐

[placid cedar]

Well in that logic anyone that don't agree is homophobic lol

I lose count how many time I'm called homophobic on the internet

While I show my gay friend all text they like ???

[proper bluff]

That’s the equivalent of calling an nb person female. It works both ways around, and if she canonically identifies as female, then its pretty stupid to suggest something else

[lusty spire]

?? Is this about the translation comment, or the headcanon one? Because if it’s the latter, no the hell it ain’t lol. It’s a fictional character, and if someone likes the idea of Shiver being nb and draws them with a pride flag or something, it’s just for fun. It may not be canon, but they’re not claiming it as such — and they’re not Nintendo, either

[placid cedar]

You forger this is the internet even if the artist doing for headcanon there people who want to force it it goes both ways

I'm looking at you twitter lol

[restive rune]

Yeah unbelievable 😂

Oh you disagree? HOMOPHOBIC.

[placid cedar]

The thing is even if you disagree and respect their choice and decisions you still homophobic

For them. There no winning lol

Twitter is the main offender when it come to that

[restive rune]

Twitter is a big digital circus

[placid cedar]

At least people here are bit nice

[restive rune]

Idk about that

[placid cedar]

Lol

[lusty spire]

No

[placid cedar]

Lol

[placid cedar]

I will let that cute thing kill me

[proud storm]

How would this be homophobic tbh?

Shiver's ID doesn't determine if she would rather smooch Frye or Big Man.

On the subject of the topic: while it's canon that she's a girl, she's the most plausible to be not cis

So HC'ing her as enby feels less dumb

[astral gust]

Actually I feel like that’s Frye

I don’t think any of the idols in splathree are part of the lgbtq community but if any of them were I feel like it would be Frye for some reason

[raw basin]

lost count of how many times you’ve been called homophobic eh?

there’s a saying

if everywhere you go smells like shit maybe it’s time to check your shoes

[placid cedar]

I guess you miss the part I show to other LGBT members ans they said I'm fine

Lol I even seen LGBT members calling other LGBT member homophobic cause they don't agree

Specially my friends

[raw basin]

internalized homophobia is a thing

[placid cedar]

The thing is I talk with many gay, trans and that may reason they avoid the LGBT community as a whole

[raw basin]

assuming these friends exist and aren’t made up conveniently to cover your ass

[placid cedar]

They don't like to associated with them

Yea cover

Maybe maybe

Who know

I'm the only one who know it they real or not

Maybe my autistic brain playing tricks on me lol

[raw basin]

having lgbt friends ir being lgbt does not make you immune to being homophobic

[placid cedar]

I know it doesnt

Just saying

I never said it does

[raw basin]

it’s fairly common for lgbt folks to echo homophobic talking points to appear to be “one of the good ones”

[placid cedar]

But me not agreeing doesn't mean I'm homophobic

There a thing called agree and disagree respectfulyl

You respect me I respect you

You be nice I will be nice

My opinion shiver is a female if other want to see like they want

It ok for me

I respect that

But people in twitter call me homophobic even when I said it fine either way for me

It like if you not agree with them then you are enemy

So yea not my shoes who smear with shit

[raw basin]

like snek said homophobia would have nothing to do with gender anyways

[placid cedar]

Oh I know

[raw basin]

hm sure

can’t make any judgments unless I actually see these so called twitter accusations

but I doubt you wanna dox yourself

[proud storm]

WHOA, what is this thread rn?

[placid cedar]

Lol

Indeed

Nothing

Just having civil coversation

Lol

[wintry canyon]

I'm not saying it is homophobic or whatever, but, you can understand how it comes off that way when somebody says "Shiver's nb in the original Japanese version" and your reply is "nah she a girl"

[placid cedar]

I know some of my text may come passive aggrieved but they not

[placid cedar]

I said in my opinion

Is an opinion not fact

I'm fine is a non binary

This is why fan made stuff exist

[proud storm]

Back to topic:

Shiver sadly isn't enby, neither in japanese nor NoA, and the enby community took a fat L, BUT please do keep the idea that she could be enby, cuz I've learned so much about non-binarism thanks to this conversation

[wintry canyon]

From their perspective, it feels like an attack, probably. Even when prefaced with "in my opinion"

[placid cedar]

And there the problem

[wintry canyon]

Nonbinary peeps irl frequently feel similar erasure when cis folks project binary genders onto them, and adding your two cents that, in your opinion, this character is binary, feels very much like that kind of attack, sorry.

[raw basin]

nb people can use she/her anyways and japanese doesn’t confirm anything

[placid cedar]

Even it not an attack they see it that way

While I don't see their as attack

Well I don't see anything as attack either way

[wintry canyon]

Well, because it is very similar to how nb people are attacked.

[placid cedar]

Lol

Im just chill that all

[proud storm]

Tbh: I am more wondering why Nintendo decided to refer to Shiver in neutral pronouns in the first place

If they were gonna confirm her as a girl anyway

[placid cedar]

Maybe nintendo predict shiver would be popular and decisions is leave the gender ambiguous for fan to do what they want

That my 2 cent

They don't wanted to offend anyone

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

[raw basin]

sigh I’m tired, I didn’t want to say anything originally but hurts to see ignorance going unanswered because uninformed people might take it as fact

[placid cedar]

Lol

[proud storm]

My personal theory is that Nintendo made a fuckup, they weren't sure what Shiver's ID was, so they played it safe and other localizations followed suit.

[placid cedar]

Exactly

Thar what I mean

[wintry canyon]

Culturally, if I'm understanding it right, it's not too uncommon to use neutral "pronouns" for somebody in japanese. I believe context might imply that they're, just not as feminine presenting? That shiver's supposed to be more of a "tomboy"?

[placid cedar]

Sorry english not my main

So stuff can come up wrongly

Lol

[raw basin]

japanese pronouns are not explicitly gendered

[placid cedar]

You can tell I talk like a fucking caveman

Lol

[raw basin]

technically every japanese pronoun is neutral

[placid cedar]

I self taught english

Lol

[raw basin]

not that pronouns equal gender to begin with

[wintry canyon]

Yeah, although from what I understand, some imply more masc or femme indications?

[raw basin]

but that may be to complicated for some people to comprehend

[placid cedar]

What if Japan shiver a cross dresser?

I think that plausible

[proud storm]

Yeah, but scales balance more along the lines of her being a girl sadly.

[proud storm]

Same

[placid cedar]

Lol

[raw basin]

yeah shiver’s pronoun in jp is used more by women but isn’t explicitly for women

[placid cedar]

I seen some cross dresser refer them as female

[wintry canyon]

Like, no official confirmation, but big man has definite bi man energy

[placid cedar]

Isn't lesbian and gay thing is part of splatoon

I saw book that look like a Yuri manga

In the general store

Abd someone post a marina pearl thing

[proud storm]

Let's be honest, LGBT isn't an issue here like ever.

Marina is pretty much BUT confirmed to be gay as fuck.

[wintry canyon]

Pearl and Marina are clearly supposed to be lesbians, but, localization censors it, and it's apparently semi-illegal in Japan, so Nintendo will probably never officially confirm it.

[jolly frost]

awnsering original question
no

[placid cedar]

Lesbian is illegal on japan?

Then what with all Yuri and yaoi manga in japan

[jolly frost]

lol what

this is a idc convo

[placid cedar]

Lol

No fight

Lol

[wintry canyon]

I'm not a japanese laywer so take this with a grain of salt, but from my understanding, being gay or lesbian isn't illegal, but, homo couples don't get the same legal benefits as hetero couples.

[placid cedar]

I see

[wintry canyon]

Stuff like taxes, being officially recognized as "married" to each other, etc.

[proud storm]

No lmao

It means that lesbian marriages don't have legal status

[jolly frost]

anyways abt the original question
it is more leading shiver being female in canon then otherwise
nintendo left it ambiguous but that doesn't really nessicarily really mean they're none binary

[placid cedar]

Lol

[raw basin]

japan does not recognize same sex unions of any kind

[jolly frost]

not going off appearance or anything, just that doesn't really matter

[placid cedar]

Only nintendo of japan know and is for us to use headcannons

[jolly frost]

no

[wintry canyon]

Really would have been nice if Nintendo had the guts to make a character officially none binary with left beef.

[raw basin]

choosing neutrality is being complicit with the status quo

[jolly frost]

however the question asks a general question and im giving my two cents

[proud storm]

Ok ngl, once someone pulls out the "who asked" card, I can see the conversation going south, so uhh... have fun

[placid cedar]

Lol

[placid cedar]

Who ask?
Jk jk jk

Lol

[jolly frost]

ok

[raw basin]

it’s easy to say you don’t care or it doesn’t matter when what you believe is the norm

[jolly frost]

anyways

wdym changing the convo im just typing

[placid cedar]

This is entertaining

Lol

[jolly frost]

keep typing im not holding u at gunpoint bro

[raw basin]

Luckily for enbies juniper from xenoblade 3 is canon nb

[jolly frost]

no so keep having ur convo

[raw basin]

I find it funny that the anime game with sexualized character designs has more enby rep than the game about androgynous squid people

[jolly frost]

its not like i was nessicarily speaking directly to you or asking for your opinion directly

[placid cedar]

What enbies mean? Excuse my boomer side

[raw basin]

non binary

[placid cedar]

Thanks

[raw basin]

if you say nb out loud

it sounds like enby

[placid cedar]

I see thanks

caboose will rememember that

I love when my friend get mad when they start complaining that female character are sexuallice for men only

She goes ballistic it funny

Like she get mad cause they leave her out

[proud storm]

OKAY GONNA HAVE TO STOP U RIGHT THERE BUD:

NOT THE TOPIC FOR HERE

[placid cedar]

Yea

Sorry

[jolly frost]

Actually judging from the recent things that did come out
personally i think that shiver is she/her but its perfectly reasonable for people to think otherwise due to NOA often butchering info from JP

[placid cedar]

Someone speak about anime lol

[jolly frost]

NOA is usually unreliable as a canon source of info

[placid cedar]

So im.saying

[jolly frost]

Its also interesting how the JP version went out of their way to keep Shivers gender hidden

[placid cedar]

But what if noj let Noa deal with it? Is a plausible

[primal plaza]

The game itself does use pronouns generally used for female-identifying IIRC, but there's also more more ambiguous application

[jolly frost]

Noa is seperate

[placid cedar]

Yea but who know

Maybe japan said "yea we not gonna deal with that you do it"

Again is a possibility not accurate

[jolly frost]

NOA did the whole cuttlefish being racist in octo expansion and mammals shenanians also that doesnt even make any sense

[placid cedar]

Eh

Again just think possiblity

I just take everything into account

[jolly frost]

why would the jp game, rely on the na translations to handle the lore of the jp game

[placid cedar]

I always thinking about all probabilities even if they don't make sense

[jolly frost]

esp since its proven time and time again that noa is heavily unreliable in absence of jp

[placid cedar]

I don't like to leave anything out

That my way of thinking tho

I always expect everything

[jolly frost]

eh
if it doesn't make sense its usually a bad prediction/ possibility

[placid cedar]

Never get disappointed lol

That is why I never get disappointed lol

Hey many science theory doesn't make any sense but they don't leave it out

[jolly frost]

they do

[placid cedar]

Until the correct one appear

[jolly frost]

they use the most facts and logic and use the recourses they have to make the best plausible possibility or theory

otherwise i dont think thats how science works

[placid cedar]

Dammit then my university computer science teacher teaching me wrong

[jolly frost]

probably
idk i know less then an actual teacher but also science and lore are not that intertwined

unless its an analogy i dont get it
if it is an analogy it just proves my point

[placid cedar]

Let agree and disagree

[jolly frost]

Eh

[placid cedar]

Either way

[jolly frost]

Agree to disagree i suppose

[placid cedar]

Yea

Damn already no entry is at 63

Oh well have a nice night

[icy lagoon]

I decided to respond to that person in private DMs.

They sent me a scam link IP address form and told me it was there YT channel.

I said no and they called me multiple different slurs.

[placid cedar]

Now that a jerk

Wait which person?

[icy lagoon]

I don’t know

[placid cedar]

Lol

[icy lagoon]

They’ve changed their username over 29382892949172738484920298338 times

I’m serious that’s what it says

[placid cedar]

Oh lol

[icy lagoon]

I’m crying

[placid cedar]

Maybe was a bot

[icy lagoon]

No no no

Not a bot

[placid cedar]

Did you block it?

Even if change name their ID still the same

Id#

[icy lagoon]

Remember this man?

[icy lagoon]

No too funny

[placid cedar]

Never click on links of no one that you don't know

[icy lagoon]

WHA

[placid cedar]

Well splatfest start

See you there everyon

Oh lord team fun already won on conch

Lol

[restive rune]

Why are y'all theorizing about the sexual orientation of game characters from a kids game 😂

[calm adder]

it being a kids game is irrelevant plenty of childrens media features LGBTQ characters

[naive yoke]

ok

[fiery flare]

headcanons exist

[restive rune]

Those children medias are bad

Kids shouldn't think about sexuality that's gross

[naive yoke]

idk wym about gross but i kinda agree. just let the children watch unicorns shitting rainbows for a while and then let them learn about it.

[calm adder]

you say that as though childrens media isn't already dominated by heterosexuality, the vast majority of shows/films/etc aimed towards kids feature some kind of romance or relationship, it's just usually one between a man and a woman

these relationships are totally fine because they're always portrayed as being purely romantic, and making it a same-sex relationship instead of an opposite-sex one doesn't change that fact

[restive rune]

Yeah whatever

[night harbor]

Sexuality Doesn't Literally Mean They Have Sex

Also

https://tenor.com/view/the-collector-the-owl-house-the-collector-the-collector-owl-house-owl-house-collector-gif-25811963

[fiery quest]

This is dumb

[astral gust]

True

[chrome sand]

english translator for s3 is notable for censoring other lgbtq characters, and the guy who confirmed shiver was “female” was that very translator.

[icy lagoon]

Ok cool

[restive rune]

Show me 1 lgbtq Splatoon character

[icy lagoon]

Every twitter bitch ever:

[lusty spire]

Watch the haters try and deny this

[restive rune]

😂😂😂

[leaden jolt]

lol marina
its very heavily implied like everywhere that she likes pearl - less so in english translations tho

what i like about splatoon tho is that the agents the player uses can be whatever you want - cishet, gay, enby, anything

bc its ur character !! thats REALLY cool
and even if nintendo did or didnt mean to, it totally brought forth a lot of lgbt+ inclusivity to splatoon as people started making these characters lgbt+ or other minorities and its just fantastic tbh - splatoon was what taught me things my world would've never because the community was so open when my world wasnt

and thats!! beautiful to me
go splatoon community go

and i think thats why i stand where i stand on the shiver convo

to try and not ramble as much as i already did, lol, splatoon is a special place full of inclusivity (for the most part)

so even if jp came out and decided that yes, shiver is female
i wouldnt be mad or anything 🤷 id love if they did end up non-binary for official inclusion but at the same time, splatoon is still full of safespaces for ppl like me who learned from the community

[calm adder]

very well said

regardless of canon it's awesome that this game has given LGBTQ people from all walks of life an outlet to express themselves with

its really special

[leaden jolt]

yeah!!

[shadow bison]

yes

she/they nonbinary vibes

[lusty spire]

Perfect writeup!!! 💜

[leaden jolt]

frr

[thorny stratus]

I personally think it's weird to headcanon a character as a gender they're not? I understand that a lot of people are disappointed shiver isn't non binary, I am too, but it doesn't feel right to pretend that she uses pronouns that she canonically doesn't.

[hybrid tusk]

No

[leaden jolt]

im genuinely curious on why you think this, the "weird to hc someone a gender theyre not", its not a take ive ever heard of before

is there a reason or is it a kinda in ur gut thing?

even if i disagree, its interesting

[thorny stratus]

I understand that people want more representation in media, I want more representation as well, but I feel like changing already existing characters isn't the way to go about it. People should want new characters that represent whatever from the beginning.
It's like when you see those people on twitter going "i fixed this anime character" and all they did was make them poc or trans. It just doesn't sit right with me.

Not to mention how much of a red flag it is, like, would you treat a real person that way?

You see big media companies trying to monopolize on it as well, like when they made superman gay or when they hired a poc actress to be ariel in the new little mermaid live action film. The problem isn't that a character is gay or poc, the problem is that you're changing an already existing character just to appeal to a younger audience when that isn't necessary

We need more shows like the owl house, stuff that had proper representation from the beginning

[wintry canyon]

Them "making superman gay" was... kinda reactionary people overinflating what actually happened.

What actually happened was, they made superman's kid, a distinct second character from the "real" superman, bisexual iirc.

[thorny stratus]

It sucks that shiver isn't non binary, but we shouldn't try and pretend that she's someone that she isn't.

I feel like Splatoon 3 has finominal gender representation with the player character options

[thorny stratus]

Ah, I didn't know about that. That's totally fine then since it was a new character

[wintry canyon]

Also Ariel was already changed from the original material for the animated film, in the original story iirc she's blue(and also she dies and turns to sea foam at the end)

[leaden jolt]

tbh i can see this in some regards but not all
..esp the lil mermaid thing, i dont think that was fixing, it was just a "why not have a poc actor" and tbh ..yeah, why not?

i think there is DEFINITELY an issue with

• Big companies making things suddebly lgbt+ just for money (different than a big company having a lgbt+ character that just exists and is normal)
• People thinking they FIXED a character with headcanons - encanto had this happen REAL bad to it

but i dont think headcanons really harm the source 🤷 a lot of young children use headcanons to explore themselves which is usually.. just fine
exploring identities is important

also headcanons are just.. fun!! theyre fun and most of the time harm no one unless they spread harmful stigman (everyone who decided bruno had did just because he did the knock on wood thing - and insinuating that did is just silly goofy person syndrome or whatever) or smthn like that

[wintry canyon]

I think there's plenty to criticize about Disney's live action movies (like the lighting tends to be shit) but casting a black person in the role of an imaginary fish person isn't like, wiping white people history.

[thorny stratus]

I feel like that's different, because it's a reinterpretation of an already existing folk tale, whereas the live action films are just...retellings of already existing movies.

[leaden jolt]

ehh
disney changed basically every folk tale they touched originally??

[thorny stratus]

Like there's a difference between taking inspiration from folk lore to just. Retelling an already existing story

Well I mean they are retellings of folklore but I mean idk it just feels different considering how old the original stories were

[leaden jolt]

people of color are allowed to exist in film 🤷 it is harming nobody

its one thing if it actively spreads harmful stigma or somehow causes something negative but poc people existing is not harm

they jus existing

[thorny stratus]

I feel like headcanons in fandoms often times lead to toxicity as well, like people get very hostile regarding sexuality and gender headcanons and I'm glad you guys aren't that way

[leaden jolt]

oh definitely, thats out of wack
im all for headcanoning a character as bi or something but dont like
get hostile over it lol
thats just silly yk??

[thorny stratus]

I'm all about being creative and expressing yourself but...most headcanons are "[character] is a lesbian" or something or other these days and people will literally tell you to off yourself if you say that it isn't canon

I miss when headcanons were actually creative

Like when they were ideas that gave insight to already existing plot points

Now they're just. About the characters identity that is already established

[leaden jolt]

oh theres definitely still creative headcanons
some are just for fun and thats chill

[thorny stratus]

I understand people want to relate to a character but like.

People at some point have to realize that your sexuality or gender isn't your personality trait. You can relate to any character no matter who they are or how they look like.

[wintry canyon]

I mean, a character being a lesbian can give insight into existing plot points. (If you'd previously interpreted their actions through the lens of them being straight)

[leaden jolt]

yeah!!

[leaden jolt]

u get it !!

[thorny stratus]

Yeah like with pearl and marina

That's fine

But like. When it doesn't have that kinda context. Like. Why?

[wintry canyon]

Is there something specific you're talking about that doesn't have context?

[thorny stratus]

I'm just talking about my experience in "fandoms" and how they operate these days

[leaden jolt]

i will say the bottom part there doesn't come off too well

i grew up without for ages without ANY lgbt+ content and if not for headcanons id be homophobic as hell still - and have not realized being gay is an option

it caused 0 harm and a lot of help - which ive seen in my peers too

my sexuality isnt a personality trait
but its apart of me
and with so little to see it in - fandom was such an open place that let me know i can be me

[wintry canyon]

Because, like, getting back on topic, there was some context that implied shiver might've been nonbinary (before NOA localizers said "no" and people are justifiably hesitant to trust their interpretation)

[leaden jolt]

oh yeah definitely

noa fucks up a lot of jps stuff

[thorny stratus]

I also grew up with little to no exposure to lgbt things, and I liked girls as early as elementary school up until I was 18, I internalized those feelings because I thought it was wrong until I saw a lesbian couple in an anime when I was in middle school

All your sexuality really is is a romantic preference. I used to be bisexual, and every bi or lesbian character in media I just...couldn't relate to. Because all we had in common was the fact that we had the same romantic preference and that was it. I related more to characters to shared similar personality traits as me

[thorny stratus]

This is true, noa made captain cuttlefish speciesist for no reason 😭

[leaden jolt]

YEAH FR

like damn he's a chill dude calm down noa /lh

(also the very guy who announced shivers gender removed trans rep from a paper mario game which is SUPER sketch in my opinion)

[thorny stratus]

context: i used to like girls and boys and then i started to only like men and now im straight. like damn i came out to my family for what. i had to come out twice

my mom was thrilled when i came out as bi because she HATES men but when i came out as straight she was not pleased 😭

[leaden jolt]

"mom.. dad.. im.. straight" /j
must've been an interesting evening lol

[thorny stratus]

she does like my boyfriend though so yay

[leaden jolt]

i accidentally came out to my mom at 2am while eating oreos out of stress from thinking about coming out so that was funny

[wintry canyon]

I mean, there is currently an issue within the lgbt community, because on the one hand it's important to stress that sexuality shouldn't be changed forcibly (it just doesn't work), but also that it's OK to change what you define yourself as over time, you don't have to be 100% sure of what you are in order to come out.

[leaden jolt]

oh yah definitely

part of why im glad queer was reclaimed as it now represents something a lotta people can relate to

[thorny stratus]

but yeah anyway my point is that yes your sexuality and gender is a part of you but they're not personality traits and while the struggle of being a minority is relatable, that struggle doesn't define you as a whole and I think defining yourself as a victim is something you shouldn't do

I think it's better to relate to characters for who they are and not because of what they look like or what preferences they have

or even because of what gender they are

[leaden jolt]

once i was playing a game and because i mentioned thinking about getting a pride pin irl to some friends a rando came up and told me being gay wasnt my personality and i swear to god it was the strangest experience ever

ive never met anyone who genuinely thought being gay was part of their personality but ive had a lot of people tell ppl to not use it as their personality

thas probably why i dont like the saying lol
very little people do that

and ppl who do are usually just a loud small group

[thorny stratus]

There's a difference between being proud of who you are and making your preference a lifestyle

I don't think wearing a pride pin is making being gay your personality

Like that's not any different then people wearing like country flags on their clothes

[wintry canyon]

No offense to people that aren't far right nuts, but, honestly being too into national pride in the USA is kinda a warning sign for me.

[leaden jolt]

whats the line between that difference, genuinely?? like i said i havent met anyone who id consider making it their personality but ive heard it a LOT - and usually from people who dont mean well (you dont seem to be trying to be like rude or anything, not what im trying to say lol)

[leaden jolt]

usa is fucked up lol
not getting into politics here bc its a mess but yeah from a us citizen its all sortsa wack here

[thorny stratus]

people who make being gay their personality don't ever shut up about being gay, like they try and fit into the stereotype as much as possible and radicalize themselves to the point of being cringey, they call every slightly fruity character gay to the point of being annoying, etc

[wintry canyon]

I think it should be OK to be as gay as you want.

[thorny stratus]

they also call people homophobic a lot for the smallest of things like saying deku is straight

[raw basin]

I guess cishet people talking about how they are looking for a significant other is also making being straight their personality

if we're using that logic

[leaden jolt]

honestly? thats kinda what pride is about
its about being loud and proud - and what
if a straight person went "that character seems straight" idk anyone who would get mad unless theyre 10 and not understanding stuff yet

[thorny stratus]

they can be as super ultra mega gay as they want but like they don't need to announce that for attention 24/7 like congratulations, you have a sexual preference, do you want a trophy?

[wintry canyon]

Like, lgbt peeps have always struggled with "respectability" aka, presenting as straight enough that straight cis people don't have to think about them

[raw basin]

sometimes visibility is important when the majority of society denies that you exist

[leaden jolt]

like literally the only people ive met who fit this description as making gay their personality are either 9 or people who are genuinely fantastic and do great things

[raw basin]

people want lgbtq people to shut up and hide in the background? bs, they didn't get rights by doing nothing

[thorny stratus]

I'm not against normalizing being gay or gay people trying to find a partner, I feel like you guys are twisting around my words here

[leaden jolt]

im trying to see your pov but its really hard when a lot of these things are things i told MYSELF when i was very deeply internally homophobic

like im tryin but ooh some of these takes are new /lh

[raw basin]

hm it's a pretty common take to me unfortunately

seen it all too often

[thorny stratus]

I'm not familiar with tone tags what is /lh

[leaden jolt]

lighthearted

[thorny stratus]

Oh ok

I honestly am kind of against pride month. I'm all for normalizing lgbt people, but the way the lgbt community goes about doing that is kicking themselves in the foot. Like, when a character is gay it always makes news headlines, and it makes being lgbt seem like an exception and not the status quo. Visibility is important, but that visibility doesn't have to be a full on fireworks display

[leaden jolt]

ok what

[wintry canyon]

Yeah, like, no offense, but, being upset that lgbtq+ peeps are being, too "visible" with their queerness (aka, making it their personality) is sorta homophobia.

As someone who's trans, it's kinda funny seeing the new trans people that, yeah, make being trans their "whole personality" for a while. They're excited and it's a really big deal for them haha.

[leaden jolt]

that was a big step from a weird take to wanting pride to go away lol thats a hard no from me

[raw basin]

it's honestly hard to describe the concept of pride to someone who presumably has never had their identity called into question or invalidated by the majority of society

[leaden jolt]

yes, it shouldn't make headlines
it does because its still seen as strange and until its actually normalized its gonna do that

news can help visibility but everytime it shouldn't be headlines
it should be normal enough to be fine but its not yet
ppl gotta keep pushin, sadly, even after all we've done to push

[raw basin]

like to them it's probably comparable to like any preference like rock music month or something

[wintry canyon]

It seems mean to look at somebody that just had a pretty big realization about themselves and tell them to quiet down and keep it to themselves and don't talk about it too much haha.

[leaden jolt]

this i didnt read this for a moment but u worded this rlly well

[thorny stratus]

I have before, I used to be bi. I understand the concept behind pride and tbh I don't think it's something that's helping anymore

[thorny stratus]

I really don't think this is homophobic. Straight people who are obsessed with being straight are equally just as bad, it's just not as common, at least not online

[leaden jolt]

if people are still going to be homophobic as hell and think we deserve to die for being gay? then we still need pride

and even after that? keep it
its a celebration and we've fought long enough for it dammit

pride is for showing we exist and we're real and you cant get rid of us and that is so, so important

[thorny stratus]

I definitely know some people who make being straight their entire personality and it's just labeled as "haha I'm boy crazy!" like shut up

[wintry canyon]

There are a lot of straight people that make their sexuality their whole personality. "Ladies man" "boy crazy" etc.

[raw basin]

yeah but boy crazy people don't have their rights taken away and shunned by society

[thorny stratus]

Yes i hate those kinds of people

[raw basin]

that's the difference

[wintry canyon]

It's just not seen as loud because that's sorta seen as the default (by straight cis society)

[leaden jolt]

heteronormativity is so ingrained into society that honestly its a little terrifying

the amount of ace/aro people who thought they were broken is just.. sad

[thorny stratus]

discrimination goes both ways although one has it worse then the other

I understand these issues need to be visible but honestly making a big deal about a fictional character being lgbt does nothing to help that cause. The lgbt characters should just exist without media making it a big deal, because it's not a big deal

[raw basin]

heteronormativity even seeps into lgbt spaces too with gay couples assuming gender roles and looking down on trans, bi, aro/ace, etc people who don't conform to the typical relationship

[wintry canyon]

Pick up basically any action movie and there is a 95% chance of a woman being shoehorned into the plot to act as the male hero's love interest.

[thorny stratus]

Yeah I hate that

And she's like super sexualized too

It's always annoying

[raw basin]

seeing positive representation for yourself in a world where little to no representation really exists is honestly just cause for a big deal imo

I get excited when I can relate to characters in media in ways that I normally can't because it feels really good

[thorny stratus]

Idk maybe I'm just different because I'm neurodivergent. I don't understand why people relate to characters because of a romantic preference or gender alone

[wintry canyon]

That being said, it is crummy when corporations (like Disney) slap in a minor lgbt character/scene... short enough that it can be cut out or censored in areas where lgbt peeps aren't profitable

[leaden jolt]

i am also neurodivergent 🤷 tho theres definitely differences in nd people
idk how much that applies to this tho

[thorny stratus]

ive been oppressed plenty for my sexuality and gender but like when a character goes through the same thing it doesn't make me feel anything

[raw basin]

different strokes

that doesn't change the way others feel

[wintry canyon]

Idk, I find it nice when there's characters that are like me in ways. That's essentially what "relating" to a character is haha

[leaden jolt]

cuz its neat and people like it, tbh
they like feeling seen and heard and feeling valid and in the end

..why not?
you dont have to relate, that's fine
but it causes 0 harm if someone else does ig

[thorny stratus]

i just feel like a lot of people just identify themselves as victims in their mind and that isn't healthy mentally

[leaden jolt]

i relate to characters who show neurodivergent tendencies like me and thats not unlike people who identify with another for being non-binary

its rare but nice to see

[thorny stratus]

I relate to characters who have similar personality traits as me

[wintry canyon]

Would be nice to see more non-binary characters that didn't have physical reasons explaining genderlessness, like being a robot or alien or shapeshifter.

[thorny stratus]

frfr

[wintry canyon]

Kinda makes nonbinary peeps feel "othered" when most representation is "other" like that

[thorny stratus]

I guess at the end of all this all I really think is that media has too much power over society

and that i wish people were more casual about media

idk

well not really casual but rather

Just not so negative

[naive yoke]

@thorny stratus i agrée with you 100% you literally said what i’ve been thinking

[night harbor]

Did Somebody Say...

OWL HOUSE

LET'S GO OWL HOUSE BAYBEE LOVE THE OWL HOUSE GET A FULL THIRD SEASON I LIKE MEN

[calm adder]

lotta good things being said in here 🙏

[night harbor]

Another thing is in the eng translation shiver exclusively uses they/them, haven’t seen one line where a character calls shiver by “she”

[leaden jolt]

rlly? thats so cool

[night harbor]

shiver is nonbinary bc japanese uses they for them, if you say no because the us translation says “she” have you heard of: pronouns don’t equal gender

also i can think whatever i want ❤️‍🩹

so

[astral gust]

You can refer to anyone as “them” not just non binary people

[night harbor]

why would you refer to a single person as them

and why would you fight me on this, it’s a headcanon let me be

shiver is nb

[night harbor]

ur so right best frined

https://nintendowire.com/news/2022/08/15/is-splatoon-3s-shiver-non-binary/

[astral gust]

I’m not fighting I’m just saying

Headcanons are fine

I just think it’s wrong to say you can only refer to non binary people as they or them

[night harbor]

[night harbor]

when did we say that

i literally said pronouns don’t equal gender

but then why would nintendo address them as a they?

[astral gust]

First part is where

[night harbor]

and nb's can use pronouns other than they/them

[night harbor]

wdym

[astral gust]

You stated NOJ referring to shiver as “them” proving she non binary as a fact when it is seems like a it of a stretch

[night harbor]

in other languages of the game they use genderless pronouns, such as japanese, spanish, and french

just because in the english version they gendered shiver doesnt mean its fact

why are you so against the thought of her being nonbinary? youre starting an argument for no reason

[astral gust]

Neither shiver being exclusively female or non binary is a fact

I’m not against it again I’m just against them saying that only non binary people can be referred to as them

[night harbor]

he literally didnt say that

[astral gust]

Literally the first sentence they said

[night harbor]

i never said that😭😭😭

they never said "only nonbinary people can be reffered to as them"

ur high

i said they used they on shiver, cool, but then i said pronouns don’t equal gender

[astral gust]

Ok

[night harbor]

but the fact that they used they on shiver could mean that nintendo could’ve made shiver nb which is valid

[night harbor]

So I just wanna say one thing: given that somebody here mentioned the eye design on female Octolings and how Shiver does not have the same design but shares more with the more masc design, very possible that Shiver could just be trans.
Just saying tho. I'm still waiting on NOJ to put out the info years from now about their (Deep Cut) designs.

[tawny flint]

ahem

Gonna say it again. Don't write her off as non-binary until it has been confirmed or denied by the creators. Head canons are fine, but they do not equal facts.

I'm all for representation of LGBTQ+ people, but let's just wait for the big guns to enlighten us before we make assumptions, educated or not.

[empty phoenix]

I don't get it

Canonically she's female

But fanfiction wise it doesn't really matter

[night harbor]

shiver is nonbinary and lesbian

[night harbor]

Hey Das Me

[night harbor]

Not confirming anything. Just speculating for fun. Let us have fun lol

[night harbor]

Thank you for your input!

[placid cedar]

Lol this still going

Let put shiver in a cloning machine

And we alter one there

[night harbor]

i do whatever i want

like let me have fun bro

we never have representation and we might get something but now i have to wait until nintendo obviously denies it? no man

shiver is nb i will die by this statement and idc what y’all say

[night harbor]

so true best friend

[astral gust]

They said headcanons are fine tho. Did you not finish reading it?

[tawny flint]

I never said you couldn't think that. I just said don't treat it like a fact and shove it upon others.

[night harbor]

i did, but they said “but they don’t equal facts”

so

[astral gust]

Because headcanons are not fact

They’re in your head

They’re what you choose to believe they are

[night harbor]

i do whatever i want

[proud storm]

Just asking:

How can someone be enby and lesbian?

[leaden jolt]

bc they like exclusively women - and sometimes other enbies (the orange stripes in the modern flag are for gnc people/enbies!)

a lesbian doesn't have to be a woman but they arent into men, basically

and for ppl who like women and men but dont rlly fit under bi, thats what sapphic is for

[proud storm]

I'm confus:

So... err... am I a lesbian now?

[leaden jolt]

some enbies prefer the term trixic (i think thats how it was spelled??) which is specifically enbies who like women

so it depends on the person!! but most lesbians are fine with enby/genderfluid/etc lesbians

the limits are basically "dont be a man and don't like men"

[leaden jolt]

depends 🤷

[proud storm]

Ok lemme see if I get it

Ur a lesbian if you like girls, and aren't a guy?

[leaden jolt]

for the most part, yeah!!
its a little complicated nowadays with broader terms of gender and that's where the in-fighting tends to begin

[proud storm]

Holdon I thought the definition of homosexual was being attracted to your own gender.

[leaden jolt]

mostly, but it's also kinda an umbrella term for queerness in general
most people mean that when they say homosexual, tho!! liking ones own gender, yes

[night harbor]

im at work thank you for answering for me

lesbian means non men loving non men

[leaden jolt]

yah ofc

[mellow spade]

I just think: let people think what they want to think about shiver. She’s a made up character. If someone wants her to be non binary, what’s stopping them from believing in that? It’s just a bunch of 1s and 0s anyway

[proud storm]

Non-binary
1s and 0s

[tawny flint]

[astral gust]

You can’t say shiver is non binary because programming languages are just translations of binary code

[proud storm]

Mfw coding is transphobic, time to cancel all devs.

on a serious note

We should probably wrap up this conversation, the best we got was:

Unless Nintendo of Japan confirms it, Shiver is female, but headcanons are still valid, as long as you don't force that HC on others. However unlike other idols, Shiver is more ambiguous so that makes it more valid.

Am I correct in this wrapup?

[astral gust]

Yeah this thread should end

[raw basin]

afaik the only thing confirmed is that shiver in the english version uses she/her

which means that until Nintendo of Japan confirms it, shiver's gender is canonically unknown and up to interpretation

so basically any statement on shiver's gender would be a headcanon in this case

which includes saying shiver is a cisgender woman, just to be clear

[feral python]

Nate Bihldorff said that she/her pronouns weren't used in the direct but would be present in the game. I wasn't really looking closely, but were they even?

[pearl flax]

She isn’t lol stop assuming things on people

If there isn’t 100% canonical proof there is no real proof

[glossy shuttle]

note that Nintendo said shiver uses She/Her pronouns (never stating anything specific in gender). That still can mean she’s non-binary. I HC that she is and just uses she/her pronouns as that’s how she’s comfortable, but I still like to believe she had chest surgery considering the bandage/binder over her chest

[feral python]

Chill

I was asking a question about the statement of the dude

[primal plaza]

People get really heated about this when I think rather it provides an interesting case of translation differences

[feral python]

I'd like nonbinary representation, but I don't really care either way if Shiver in particular is or not.

I'm not assuming gender or lack thereof on anyone. TZG doing so is their own thing, but I personally find the assuming of gender, whether they be man/woman/nb/agender uncomfortable. I don't assume Shiver is non-binary btw. Shiver's Shiver.

I just wanna know if she/her pronouns were used in game in direct reference to Shiver, b/c one of NOA's people who's job I don't even really understand what it entails, said they were

[pearl flax]

I am chill wdym

When I’m not chill

I write in all caps

[feral python]

Neat factoid

[pearl flax]

Thx

[feral python]

You def didn't seem chill lmao

[pearl flax]

Ha lol

I’m a chill person

Mostly

[feral python]

Considering you accused me of making an argument I didn't, it's a logical conclusion to come to

[pearl flax]

But seriously I was pretty chill

[feral python]

Do you know the answer to my question?

[pearl flax]

Uhh

Idk

This is a game about squids shooting ink

[feral python]

It has dialog

I'm asking about the dialog

[pearl flax]

Ok

Dioulauge

Ummmmm

Yeah I guess

[feral python]

Anyone who's not TZG know if Shiver's referenced directly as she/her like the SVP dude said they'd be?

[pearl flax]

Idk really lol

[pearl flax]

Bruh…

Stop dissing me my g

Cmon

[feral python]

I am?

I have a question, you don't have the answer. I don't have any need for your input

[pearl flax]

Ok I have a valid answer

NOA refers to shiver as she her

[feral python]

In-game

He specifically said it'd be in-game

[pearl flax]

Canon proof

Oh

Well there is really no in game proof

[feral python]

Then shush.

[pearl flax]

Fine 💀

Plus also in the first place I wasn’t targeting specifically u

I was making a statement for the whole thread

[feral python]

Ah

[pearl flax]

Yeah

[feral python]

This whole thread's really cringe people at each other's throats. Shiver is Shiver. Just accept that

Gender doesn't matter

[pearl flax]

If I were to respond to u I would use the reply feature

[pearl flax]

Facts

[feral python]

Gender doesn't exist

[pearl flax]

Splatoon 3 is real tho

[feral python]

tru

[pearl flax]

I said nothing

[feral python]

Gender exists as much as the US Dollar

[pearl flax]

Ha

I have 3 of the us dolla

[feral python]

Outside the society that accepts it though, it has no baring

[pearl flax]

So gender exists 3 times

[pearl flax]

Ok but sex exists. The gender ur given when ur born

[feral python]

Gender isn't sex

[feral python]

Sex is also not bimodal

[pearl flax]

Ikr like honey isn’t mustard

[feral python]

But that's not an appropriate convo to this server

[pearl flax]

But honey mustard….

What’s bimodal

[feral python]

bi = two, modal = having or involving modes

[pearl flax]

😳

This is the longest thread I’ve been in imao

[feral python]

There's 6 identified karyotype sexes that don't result in the death of the fetus

[pearl flax]

…

[feral python]

I wonder if inklings have anatomical sex

[pearl flax]

I wish I knew what that means

[pearl flax]

…..

They’re squids

Squids…don’t have genders?

Idk not really a biologist

[feral python]

No, they don't have language or any means with which to construct gender or roles associated with it

[pearl flax]

Bruh

I meant male/ female

[glossy shuttle]

y’all still on his

[pearl flax]

Surprisingly yes

It’s somehow still a hot topic

[glossy shuttle]

shiver is shiver mic drop

gender? Shiver doesn’t know about gender. shiver is just shiver ongggg 🥶

[pearl flax]

Shiver is shiver

[feral python]

Gender, can master mega eat it?

[pearl flax]

Shiver moment

[pearl flax]

I want to eat master mega

And shiver

[primal plaza]

While squids don't have strong sexual dimorphism, they're not hermaphrodites. As in, there's male and female squids

The chromosomes are probably different from say the mammalian system of X and Y but there's definitely what we'd loosely say is "gender" (in this case masculine and feminine variations)

[pearl flax]

Oh ok thx

For the info

[astral gust]

The thing around her chest is a sarashi which has been commonly known used since the edo period of Japan

It’s fine you headcanon that just thought you should know

[feral python]

Sarashi are used to either bind the stomach or the chest. The use of it to bind the chest was often for the sake of breast concealment to appear more visibly masculine

(it of course has many other uses, but that's narrowed down by the fact that Shiver's not designed as a samurai)

[placid cedar]

This whole thread will never end lol

[gray dust]

true

[leaden jolt]

honestly its a little comedic and equally sad when the homophobia finds a way in (i dont mean people who dont hc it, i mean the people who come in just to be rude abt the possibility of shiver being enby)

[thorny stratus]

Personally I don't really care what gender Shiver is I think she's cool either way, though I am kind of glad she's she/her (because I relate more to woman characters as I am a woman) but I would still like shiver if she ended up being any other gender

[leaden jolt]

yes good take
i wld prefer shiver enby but even if jp also confirmed them female?? thats still free fem representation for the world which is also good tbh

ow lag

[feral python]

Splatoon in general is great for female representation between all the idol characters and the canon protag across all the games' art being fem

[leaden jolt]

yeah!!

iirc people have already discussed in this thread that there is some male protag art but theres still a lotta fem

[feral python]

Male protag art exists, but fem is by and far the default. Front and center in the first two games boxes is fem, costume 1 in smash is fem, the protagonist shown in the 3 reveal trailer was fem

[leaden jolt]

yeaahh :] its nice to see

[hexed ocean]

🍿

[pallid wraith]

Damn, almost 1k messages just here

[wintry canyon]

Go directly to #spoil3r-containment-unit , do not pass Go, do not collect $200

Please don't post major spoilers in random channels like that.

[leaden mulch]

I’m fairly certain that the it is confirmed both by noa and nintendo but I’m not sure

I’ve seen some Japanese videos basing their video (the fact that shiver is a girl) on the tweet made by Nintendo of America so idk tbh

But on the matter of headcanons, I don’t think she is non binary. And I don’t think it’s problematic to headcanon her as nonbinary as long as you don’t get mad when people say that shiver is a girl.
If you want people to not get mad when they see you headcanon her as non binary, then you shouldn’t get mad when people say she is canonically a girl
Id personally say that It’s a mutual thing, you respect me and I respect you.

[feral python]

It doesn't go just one way

I'd also argue it's more reasonable to be upset when someone call's shiver a girl than otherwise. When people are upset about shiver being called a girl it's because they feel their identity is being invalidated, as they've sought representation in shiver. When people are upset about shiver being called nonbinary, it's exclusively because of their transphobia.

Not to say that everyone who thinks of shiver as a girl is a transphobe, I want to be clear that I realize that's not the case. I'm speaking only people who become upset about it. There are reasons people have visceral rejections to things, and nobody reacts with being upset to a person "violating the canon" or some shit.

Think of shiver as how you wish, and others will too. If you act upset or angry about how someone else identifies a character in a video game, you have to re-evaluate why you're feeling like that and what's so offensive about someone thinking a featured humanoid character lives outside the gender binary. Or more precisely, why the idea of a featured humanoid character living outside the gender binary offends you.

[restive rune]

Whaaat

What spoiler

Also this is literally the spoiler channel

[feral python]

Ya... seems goofy to go into a lore channel expecting the lore doesn't include spoilers

[wintry canyon]

They posted the final boss theme (without context)

[feral python]

That's more an issue of being off-topic than spoiling - as this metaconversation is too

[tawny flint]

If the first thought someone has is "they're trying to invalidate my identity of an non-binary Octopus" then like, bruh.

And that isn't because of transphobia, I gladly accept people and who they wish to be and identify as, but being assertive and aggressive about it with Shiver isn't cool.

I'm sorry that I could possibly offend someone's identity by thinking Shiver is a female, but that's my respective belief and I think we all need to accept each other's beliefs.

[raw basin]

nice writeup, ram. I think it's good to point out the asymmetry in reactions from people. I feel even when you write it out clearly like that there will still be people who don't really get it

also lol that the first response to your writeup is someone trying to invalidate feelings of being invalidated

nice

[tawny flint]

If you feel invalidated by people calling Shiver female then sorry. But getting offended over it doesn't change someone else's stance immediately about it.

As long as someone respects you for what you wish to be, then that's what matters.

[raw basin]

sigh there's a lot to unpack here, too tired for this rn

hopefully someone else can deal with it

[feral python]

Did you not read the second portion of my post?

Anticipating people who think of shiver as a girl being like "well I'm not transphobic", I specifically carved out to whom I was referring. If you're not upset by someone saying shiver is non-binary, this is not about you. If you choose to take offense, however, yes, that is transphobia.

[feral python]

People find representation in their identity in people in media. Shiver's very clearly not presented as an octopus, but as a person, regardless of if her species is human or not. Nice attempt at a strawman though.

[feral python]

My post was very clearly not about people calling shiver female. It was a justification of those who get upset about it, as well as a condemnation of blatant transphobia. Nice attempt at a strawman though.

If you wish to argue, you should consider arguing against what is said, not creating a completely fictitious interpretation of it to argue against.

[leaden mulch]

Although I don’t think it’s exclusively because of transphobia, I heavily agree with your point

It’s a pretty controversial topic but it’s a topic that should be explored nonetheless

It’s kind of irrelevant to the conversation but personally find it hilarious that this is exclusively a problem in the western community/ English community lmao

In the Japanese community people just call her フウカ姐さん once they found out that canonically, shiver was a girl

Which is basically the Japanese equivalent of calling shiver “mommy shiver”

Which I also find hilarious

[leaden mulch]

Also your whole entire argument is
inhales
IRRELEVANT

[chrome smelt]

Yes

[leaden jolt]

ok yes thats entirely irrelevant but i think thats the funniest thing ive ever heard abt splatoon in ages

[proud storm]

Chottomatte: so wouldn't that mean that NoA's statement that Shiver is female isn't a case of that guy being homophobic?

So that means Shiver is a girl canonically right?

Note: this doesn't open the idea of her being:

Non gender conforming
Amab girl
Her eventually being nb in fanfics

[leaden mulch]

well, the more you know.

[leaden mulch]

sorry i’m not sure if this is because of my poor english skills or your sentence making no sense but i understood nothing you wrote here

[wintry canyon]

Idk, from what I've heard, weirdly the people in Japan are taking their "canon" from the English version, which is wack.

[leaden mulch]

yeah

[wintry canyon]

Because I guess that one dude at NOA is the only one who's decided that they needed to say something.

[leaden mulch]

well to be fair, the tweet from noa is quite literally the only source of shiver being a girl so

and honestly no one gave a fuck about her being non binary or not after noa made the statement

if anything, in the japanese community the theory that she was non binary was nonexistent. the theory that she might of been a guy is more prevalent

[wintry canyon]

There's been a lot of fucks given both ways, hence this thread haha

[leaden mulch]

all the fucks are coming from this side of the splat on community anyways so